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Chinese ship flees with arms for Mugabe



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Published Date: 21 April 2008
By Fred Bridgland
A CHINESE ship carrying weapons for the Zimbabwean government has fled South African waters before a sequestration order could be placed on its cargo.
Germany's Central Bank sought the cargo of the An Yue Jiang as compensation for non-repayment of a £30 million loan made in 2000 to shore up the collapsing state-owned Zimbabwe Iron & Steel Corp, the Johannesburg-based Sunday Times reported yesterday.

The An Yue Jiang is carrying 77 tonnes of weapons for Robert Mugabe's security forces. The confiscation documents could not be served because the An Yue Jiang, lying ten miles off the Indian Ocean port of Durban since 14 April, lifted anchor and fled into international waters on Friday night as a sheriff approached with a separate high court order for the weapons to be impounded. The separate order was granted to local human rights lawyers who argued that arms for Zimbabwe should not be transported through South Africa.

The ship was last reported to be heading for Angola, whose president, Eduardo dos Santos, is close to Mr Mugabe.





The full article contains 182 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 20 April 2008 9:55 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Zimbabwe
 
1

Silence of the Yams,

21/04/2008 01:02:18
No more arms shipments to Mugabes criminal regime. What a shame.
2

Guga II,

Rockall 21/04/2008 02:34:27
#1 He'll get his arms via Angola as they are another client state of the gangster Chinese government.
3

Delta Juliet,

Durban 21/04/2008 03:21:53
We have to be carefull not to turn South Africa into a new battleground for Zimbabwe's problems. If a bank, or any other non-governmental organization take possessions of arms, what would become of them if not ultimately handed over to a ministry of defence of a pre-existing legitimate government.

Also, it is important to pacify a racial approach to it. If the said officer is white, and the said judge is white and the said bank is primarily white trying to interdict goods in South Africa, a territory with fresh apartheid memories and with the land issue still outstanding.

Some militant South Africans remain bitter, especially that the economy remains wholly owned by the beneficiaries of apartheid. One needs to reflect back to the standing ovations and whistling that Mugabe received in South Africa not too long ago.

One needs not to ignore the communist links between these revolutionary nationalistic movements such as Zanu pf.

Contrary to popular propaganda, the objective of these movements, of if not so, the promises made to the supporters, was the return of African resources to Black control and South Africa doesn't have very few of these, yet the blacks remain the poorest in the world.

Also, "Umshini Wami" Zuma's overtures should be taken with a pinch of salt. He has an election to go before getting into power. His empty rhetoric cannot be counted.

At this point Zuma wants COSATU support, but he has militants eager to go on a Mugabe style on farms.

The Zim problem needs to approached with caution. Mugambe's South African Millitant Support should not be discounted so quickily.

Also, how do you explain the departure prior to service of the orders other than insider informants?

How do you explain, the RSA government having authorized the transportation of the goods?

How do you explain Mbeki hand in hand with Mugabe and since 2000 or so endorsing those contested elections?

How do you explain SADC issuing such pampering communique to Mu
4

Mashimaro,

China 21/04/2008 03:25:16
This story is two days old. How long does this paper take to get the news?
5

Black & White Triumph,

Greenhill Road.....soon 21/04/2008 04:35:37
and this is the country that is hosting the Olympics (China)
6

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/04/2008 05:10:37
If the arms arrive in Angola they will either be air lifted to Zimbabwe or trucked in via Namibia.

Needless to say Mugabe is not waiting for the arms before he begins the next part of his strategy to retain power.

As he has already driven 5 million out of Zimbabwe by his failed economic policies we are now seeing him use violence to drive more opposition supporters into exile. He will probably succeed.

The EU and the United States need to come together to formulate a strategy to end his rule. Relying on the African Union and the SADC has been an absolute failure.

A combination of referals to the International Criminal Court for members of Mugabes regime as well as sanctions that target banks that have any dealings with Zimbabwe by excluding them from the International Payments system might be effective.

Forget trying to resolve this or any other international crisis through the UN that is a hostage to the Chinese veto. Just enact the sanctions as a group with the levers that you have.

7

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/04/2008 05:15:43
#4

I guess its because the weapons are on a slow boat from China
8

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 21/04/2008 06:10:58
6
KampungHighlander,
Jakarta
------------------------------
Dudes like U, remind me of the stifling UN type organizations , Long on rhetoric , Short on action.

Simple solution here. Get Bush to fly a F-18 off one of our carriers in the vicinity, and fire a couple of TH missiles, and sink that ship and its cargo of arms . Give the crew 20 minutes to abandon ship .

Done Deal . And who will challenge Bush NO ONE.

GC
9

McX,

21/04/2008 06:24:20
#8 Duh like Dud you want to like sink the merchant ship of a sovereign nation and think the Chinese government wont challenge skippy.

Duh happy warmongering day dud.

McX x
10

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 21/04/2008 07:26:21
9
McX,
----------------
Wrong dude,
Like we trashed a sovereign nation IRAQ and no one did diddle squat to stop us .


He dude when U hold the biggest gun only a bigger gun makes sense to challenge.
And Boy do we hold the biggest gun

In this years Fed. Budget we the US will spend $460 billion on war stuff (military).Like £230 billion (pounds).

WE also possess around 260 million guns for personal use. Try invading the USA every home has a weapon.

Make the Middle east fighting, look like a walk in the park.

GC
.
11

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/04/2008 08:12:30
Dude,

#8 America does not do military interventions in Africa since it got its butt kicked in Somalia, thats why you didn't intervene in Rwanda. African lives are just not worth it for the good old USA. Maybe if it was Nigeria and involved a lot of oil, then maybe.

#10 I guess that explains your wise strategy of letting everybody in Iraq keep their personal AK47, boy that was really bright.
12

Bob Christie,

21/04/2008 08:29:21
Perhaps a passing submarine could accidentally launch a well-placed torpedo?
13

Boy Wonder,

21/04/2008 09:05:31
Wasn't it last Thursday the ship was reported as fleeing the warrant-servers?? Tch Tch, Hootsmon ... catch up, willya?
14

Biker,

Ayr 21/04/2008 09:15:42
I have no doubt whatsoever that Mugabi and his merry band of cutthroats are currently sharpening their machetties even as I wtite. The UN needs to take a more robust line and forget the individual veto rule. Magority say time to stop this fiasco, and away the UN troop go. get in there before China gets the bweapons to them.
15

,

21/04/2008 09:20:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

carrottop,

Dumfries 21/04/2008 09:41:28
Mubabe is saying what are you going to do about it,
Well, what are we going to do about it?
Not a lot I think.

Are China the new Nazi Germany?
17

Mashimaro,

China 21/04/2008 09:51:41
You guys a such a joke! You think America's got the biggest gun? America's finished. The complete farce in Iraq and Afghanistan means they have nothing left, nothing to spare for Zimbabwe.
And do you imagine for one single second that if they did go to war on China that Russia would do nothing?

Wakey wakey - you no longer rule.
18

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/04/2008 10:15:28
#17

I don't think you get the whole cold war concept. It is not about the big powers going toe to toe. It is about using proxy's to do your fighting.

Most of it is done using softpower influences.

Its not about direct confrontation, it is about forcing you to make unpaletable policy decisions.

Like installing Anti Missile Batteries to ostensibly neutralize the threat of North Korean Missiles but secretly making your ballistic missiles vulnerable.

Then you have to spend money on arms that you could have spent on social programs or economic development.

It is also about destabilising your allies so you have to spend inordinate sums to protect your interests in their natural resources.



19

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/04/2008 10:27:13
#17

The Russians will do the same as they did about Kosovan Independance. Moan and Grumble but not much else. The Russian Bear is pretty touthless these days.

About all they have left is cutting of gas exports, but that is usually temporary as it hurts their economy more.
20

,

21/04/2008 10:31:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
21

,

21/04/2008 10:31:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

Biker,

Ayr 21/04/2008 11:06:09
Mashimaro. The only real joke here is you with your constant ani west jibes with no real effort at discussion. I think KmpungHighlander has hit the nail firmly onthe head with his summation.
Think your tough? I suspect you are just as inept as the rest of the world when it comes to the big picture.
23

Mashimaro,

China 21/04/2008 11:56:52
#18 Thank you for confirming what I have been saying all along...

IT'S THE OIL, STUPID

All this weeping and wailing about human rights and the Duh Lie Lama is nothing more than an attempt by the US and its organisations to bring an opponent down.
You know China controls the UN now, it has large control of the vast resources of Africa and South America, it's even nosing its way in to Antarctica.
So what better way to stop its rise than to demonise it to your people.
This is a tested and tried method. And you guys have fallen for the lies.

Biker, when you come up with something worth discussing, I will discuss. I'm not interested in playing cat paws with you.
24

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 21/04/2008 12:02:22
#16 carrottop,
China is by no way the new Nazi Germany, the only world dominance we have is because of our inexpensive goods, and not because of miltitary action. The Nazis wanted to conquer by force, we're not guilty of that. We may be guilty of selling arms, but that is not just the case with us, a good number of countries carry equal if not more blame than we do. We have invested heavily in Africa, and are protecting our investments.

The USA and Uk reflect the Nazis much more so, with their militaries conquering countries half way around the globe, and they are making the same mistake that the Nazis made, by spreading their forces and money too thin. They leave themselves too vulnerable should some of their enemies unite and choose to fight back. That was the demise of Hitler, and may well be the demise of the USA and The UK. Their enemies are sick and tired of being bullied, and it's only a matter of time before it all comes unglued.
25

Guga II,

Rockall 21/04/2008 12:06:19
#23 Mushy Marrow (The Rabid Rabbit).

Nobody is demonising the Chinese people, we are, however, demonising that bunch of thugs and gangsters (your paymasters), the Chinese government.

It is unfortunate that the Chinese people are not allowed to hear the truth about the activities of your gangster government, as they are kept down and treated like dogs by these gangsters, with the aid of their PLA thugs.

One of these days though, the worm will turn, and there will be a democratic revolution in China. When that happens, people like you, the lickspittle, running dogs and lackeys of the gangster government will end up receiving your just desserts.
26

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 21/04/2008 12:19:09
#25 Guga II,
It really boggles the mind where you come up with all your ideas. You are at least fifty years behind the times, and have no idea what China is all about. You should really invest in an airplane ticket and pay this great country a visit, and then you can see for yourself that China is indeed a great country and most of its citizens are proud to be living here and have no major complaints. I live here, my job gets me around a fair bit and I talk to many people, and the China you talk about hasn't existed for many years. Seriously man, get with the times, visit Chongqing and I'll personally show you around, it will change you forever once you've seen this great place, and you too will defend it the way I do.
27

Mashimaro,

China 21/04/2008 12:23:52
GooGoo well done on getting lickspittle, running dogs and lackeys into one sentence. I see your grammar lessons are really paying off.

You people are so hypnotised by the word "democracy" you fail to see what it has done for you, culturally, socially and as human beings. You kill for it, you maim for it, you lie for it, you grub in the dirt for it.
28

Mashimaro,

China 21/04/2008 12:24:42
googoo

Oh, and PS, it's just DESERTS
29

Mashimaro,

China 21/04/2008 12:28:44
Postmark... these guys haven't even made it further than France. It's interesting that they call us Nazis and then weep for the system that inspired Nazis.
30

VVVVVVVVVV,

somewhere 21/04/2008 13:39:56
Chinese students demonstrated against the bias of west medias in London and Paris, in China they burned the french flag and slammed the BBC and CNN... OK
Now let's see what they will do about this... A demonstration against their government ??
31

Naijaman,

Nigeria 21/04/2008 13:50:27
I feel peeved that we are having the "scramble for Africa" all over. People from all over the world have over the ages raped, pillaged, denuded, plundered Africa to build their nations, giving us in return wars, despotic governments, disillusionment and hopelessness. The Arabs had their go, Europe took their turn. America did the same. Now China is queueing up. The trusting, gullible and greedy African leaders have over time played into the hands of you people, selling off our birthright for mirrors, cognac, and a few coins.
And over time, Africa has been drawn into wars that did not concern them. The family feuds that masqueraded as World War I and II for instance. Our people lost their lives for nothing. The cold war also played out in Africa, not because we stood to gain anything, but were made to bear the brunt of inordinate greed of the West and the East.
When the exploiters came, they did not need visas to come and plunder the land, but now Africans have to queue up in dehumanising conditions to travel to Western countries for legit businesses.
But let it be known that a new breed of Africans are emerging. I am no prophet, but very soon, the oppressors and exploiters of the African continent will not have it very easy. We will take back what belongs to us. We will be treated with respect and on equal footing with anyone else. Who takes anything from Africa will take it only when we give it. No more blood diamonds, no more oil-polluted swanps, no more despotic proxies. That is what is happening in the Niger Delta region of Nigeria is all about. It has started.
32

Mashimaro,

21/04/2008 14:22:00
#30 You've got to be kidding. China is bursting with nationalist sentiment right now.
Why on earth would we protest against our government? It's the most liberal government we've had in more than 50 years and clearly has our best interests at heart.
33

Mashimaro,

China 21/04/2008 14:33:37
#31 Go Mend.
34

VVVVVVVVVV,

somewhere 21/04/2008 14:39:39
#32 Actually I was kidding
35

Cockhungrycumbucket,

21/04/2008 14:53:08
#10 Whooohooo you sound so hot. How big is your gun?
36

mike - across the pond,

mashamiro & postmark 21/04/2008 15:06:08
And in 1936 Germany was likewise bursting at the seams with national pride...

I dont pretend to understand a lot about your country, but please help us all understand a few things...

Tibet... what "threat" did they pose? what has YOUR government offered THEM... what has YOUR government done to THEIR contributions to human history... and WHY???

Taiwan... what "threat" do they pose mainland china? if you are SO great, why not just leave an open invitation to join you, instead of the sabre rattling. why is taiwanese pride a threat to china?

are you HAPPY with whats going on in Zimbabwe? is supporting Mugabe with military hardware a good use of YOUR foreign aid? if you agree with whats going on there, well there isnt much of a conversation left to have... if you object... what will your government have to say???
37

Bob Christie,

21/04/2008 15:10:53
#24 states in relation to Red China:

" the only world dominance we have is because of our inexpensive goods "

Red Chinese goods are the laughing stock of the world. Red Chinese goods are synonymous with being cheap, tacky and usually broken by the time the packaging is undone!

I NEVER buy goods made in Red China, but I am more than happy to buy goods from the legitimate Republic of China (Taiwan).
38

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

21/04/2008 15:23:57
Here MushyMarrow mate...cannot seem to find that article on the People's Daily..you know..your Commie Rag...the one that I pasted earlier re China's arms deal with Zimbabwe?....you would'nt happen to know where it has gone would you now Mushy?..its really strange!....its almost as if its been pulled....has my constant posting of it been vexing to the commies or what?....perhaps it is still there and I have merely mislaid it....perhaps I will find it later....if not I am afraid I will be rather suspicious that you are a hack for said rag................in the meantime..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3804629.stm
39

Mcsnagpile,

21/04/2008 16:33:06
The Chinese have a dastardly weapon that could destroy the USA. If every China man stood on a stool and jumped at the same time it would cause a massive earthquake on the San Andreas Fault. No fancy expensive missiles.
Will the international community get their hands on the massive energy reserves in Zimbabwe? That is the question Mr Mugabe..
40

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

21/04/2008 17:39:21
http://english.people.com.cn/200507/27/eng20050727_198429.html#

Couple of despots slapping each other on the back......all very nice and civilised....no mention of the weapons ...unless you want to read between the lines.....
41

Biker,

Ayr 21/04/2008 17:58:01
I strongly suspect Mashimaro that it is less about playing "cats paw" and more to do with no answer. Your constant whimpering about the wonderfull China and how fair it is has fallen foul.
If the people are as happy as you state, why are the Falun gong and Tibetans causing you so much embarrasment.
Again , What about the disspossesed in Beijing?
42

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

21/04/2008 18:56:10
Where is the genuine Panchen Lama?
43

,

21/04/2008 20:30:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
44

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

21/04/2008 20:35:38
Och thats a nice gesture, there you are now...Paris has just made the Dalai Lama a 'Citizen of Honour'...sweet....
45

Edmond's comment,

21/04/2008 23:00:23
43 Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen

Nice to see you use your regular ID to insult posters rather than hiding behind your other names.
46

Mashimaro,

China 22/04/2008 03:11:13
#36 "Tibet... what "threat" did they pose? what has YOUR government offered THEM... what has YOUR government done to THEIR contributions to human history... and WHY???"

Tibet is not a threat per se. China has a long history with Tibet. I think you people cannot seem to understand Asia as a whole. Asia has been a battle ground for thousands of years, with nations colliding, mixing, parting and colliding again. The borders of countries change depending on which era from which you look at them. So Tibet surrendered formally to China when China was actually under the rule of the Mongols. Remember the great Genghis Kahn? He made contact with Tibetans and Tibet became a vassal state of his empire. When he died, Tibet stopped paying tribute to his empire. So his grandson reinvaded in 1240.
The Tibetans had their own leader before that, but he was named something else. It was Prince Koden - the great Khan's grandson, who did away with that leader and asked his commanders to find someone else. Which they did.
There was more war. At that time the Mongols had not fully conquered China. When Prince Koden's father, Ogedei, died, there was huge in fighting in the Mongol leaders and so all conquering stopped. When it started again, Kubalai Khan eventually conquered China and founded the Yuan dynasty. He also reasserted his power over Tibet and he did the selection and naming of the new Tibetan leaders. So it was China, under the Mongols, who gave the Dalai Lama his name. Dalai is in fact a Mongol word.
To put it as simply as possilbe - Genghis Khan invaded Tibet, Tibet surrendered to the Mongols. The Mongols conquered China, so ruled Tibet, Mongolia and China. China conquered the Mongols so ruled Tibet, Mongolia and China.
The English invaded Tibet using gurkhas from Nepal.

47

Mashimaro,

China 22/04/2008 03:36:40
36# So there was a lot of backing and forthing as you can see, various treaties were signed, one in which Tibet declared its independence and another in which Britain and Russia recognised China's suzerainty over Tibet.
All through this time China went through several civl wars and invasions (the Japs were in and out, and in and out), the Brits tries to take most of Tibet into India. Tibet thought it was independent. The Sino Japanese war (as part of wwII) happens and China is brought to its knees. The Communist revolution happens, Chiang Kai-Shek flees to Formosa and hides out there. Mao takes charge.
At the time things were really bad in Tibet.
First of all the Dalai Lama is a Nazi sympathiser, and in fact it was he and his predecessor who inspired the whole Aryan, Nazi, Swastika thing.95% of Tibetans live as serfs or slaves to the nobles. Every spare cent is put into building monastry after monastry, and families have to send one child to become a monk or nun. Abuse and sexual abuse is rife as is torture of anyone who stands against the nobles. The average life expectancy is 35. There is disease, famine, a lack of education as any resources are poured into the church.
Mao responds to a plea from Tibetans and sends the PLA into Chamdo in 1950. Lhasa signs a 17 point agreement with Beijing and China increases its control over the area.
Of course as China tries to bring in social and relgious reform the church takes a very dim view of losing its lands and temples. A resistance is formed and led by monks. Eventually this boils over to armed insurrection and civil war.
48

SouthernGent,

22/04/2008 03:40:36
#46

"To put it as simply as possilbe - Genghis Khan invaded Tibet, Tibet surrendered to the Mongols. The Mongols conquered China, so ruled Tibet, Mongolia and China. China conquered the Mongols so ruled Tibet, Mongolia and China."

So to say it even more simply:

Tibet was invaded by the Mongols and China compounded the problem by keeping Tibet under their thumb.

If you admit that Tibet was initially invaded, then China should have liberated Tibet when they conquered the Mongols. Yet you justify the Chinese occupation.

Sounds like the old addage - 2 wrongs don't make a right.

49

Mashimaro,

China 22/04/2008 04:06:19
#36 As WWII ends, the Americans realised what kind of force the Soviet Union has been in all this, and they realise they know very little about the USSR. So the CIA recruits Nazis to give them the information. (google Reinhard Gehlen). Enter the cold war where the CIA hypes the threat from the USSR to justify its use of Nazis. China became a target for the US near the end of WWII, when soldiers guarding Japanese prisoners were ordered to turn their guns on the "Reds".
Of course the Dalai Lama now out of China, is a prime opportunity for the CIA to destablise China, and with his Nazi background he's also a no brainer. The CIA begins to publicise him and his cause, mostly making things up as they go along - like the Tibetan genocide campaign. China is not used to this kind of "in your face" vitriol and goes turtle. Also it has a huge famine to deal with.
China is in a bad way as it has a huge and growing population that it cannot feed, it has famine, droughts and floods. Most of the big rivers in China rise in Tibet. So there is no way it is ever going to let Tibet go, because whoever controls Tibet, controls China's water, and therefore,China.
Since the Chinese reasserted power over the region the life expectancy has shot up to 65 years. Education, healthcare and modernisation have seen an increase in the population of ethnic Tibetans, more women surviving childbirth, a control of diseases, food, water, and recently - just like most places in China - a giant leap in the economy.
50

Mashimaro,

22/04/2008 04:12:42
#48 Ah but Southern Gent, what about the Tanguts, The Xia, the Uigher, the Han, the Song, the Zhuang, the Yi, the Tujia, the Yi, Manchu, Buyei, Miao, Korean, Bai, the Dong, the Dai, Hani, Kazakh, Hui, She, Lisu, Gelao, Lahu, Dongxian, Va, Sui, Nakhi, Qiang, Tu, Xibe, Mulao, Daur, Mongols, Russians, Monbas, Oroqen, Jing, Achang, and so on and so on...? Are you saying that after the Mongols collapsed the whole of China should have fallen apart? That's like saying that the clan chiefs should rule Scotland once again. It does not make sense.
51

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/04/2008 04:21:31
#46

So are you saying that China is entitled to all the territory conquered by the Mongols? Is that your justification?
52

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 22/04/2008 05:13:50
#51 KampungHighlander,
We will give up Tibet when the Americas are returned to its rightful owners, the Native Americans, and since I can't foresee that happening anytime soon, I guess that we hold on to Tibet. Its ours, we've improved it and their life style, so find something else to talk about until the west abandons the Americas.
If you want to point fingers at us, feel free to point fingers at the west while you're at it. No, two wrongs don't make a right, but this is the way it is, so deal with it.

53

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 22/04/2008 05:43:40
#37 Bob Christie,
The quality of our goods seem to be represented by our huge surplus, the numbers support my claim. go ahead and google it, you'll see for yourself.
54

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 22/04/2008 05:51:40
#12 Bob Christie,
Your statement,
"Perhaps a passing submarine could accidentally launch a well-placed torpedo?"

That submarine and its country will regret such a move, I guarantee you that.

We're just a little too big to pushed around by somebody that stupid, or anybody else for that matter.

Time to start thinking for yourself Bob Christie, your dreams won't pan out.
55

Mashimaro,

China 22/04/2008 06:16:03
#36 Taiwan... what "threat" do they pose mainland china? if you are SO great, why not just leave an open invitation to join you, instead of the sabre rattling. why is taiwanese pride a threat to china?

Well, in short, it's a strong military base which poses a large threat to mainland China.
Tt has always been an unstable area and a very convenient springboard for launching attacks against China. The Chinese started to migrate there in about the 1600s when Zheng defeated the Dutch. It was part of the Qing dynasty who gave it away to Japan in the late 1800, and it's been a thorn in our side ever since. Taiwanese fought on the side of the Japanese, and at the end of the last Sino-Nippon war, Taiwan chose to return to China. The 1943 Cairo conference made this formal.
When Chiang Kai-Shek was driven off the mainland he and his followers invaded Taiwan. When the locals protested, Chiang brought in harsh martial law.
The US, meanwhile, saw Taiwan as a buffer between communism and the rest of Asia. It was also strategically important. With the threat of Japan heading down the communism route they stepped in. When the Korean war broke out the americans sent their military into the Taiwan strait, which China saw as a threat. Since then the US has been arming Taiwan and shoring up it's illegitimate government.
Taiwans' indigenous people who were angry at the invasion of Chiang were the ones who began calling for independence. That was around the 1960s, and in 1970 the UN expelled the nationalists and recognised Beijing. Other major powers followed suite.
Yet the US continues to arm Taiwan against China. Before the arrival of precision weapons, China took the precaution of aiming missiles at Taiwan. That was deemed by Beijing to be too much of a "collective" punishment so now it concentrates on precision targets like Chen Shui-bian. In the future when Ma Jingeo takes over Taiwan will close the gap between itself and the rest of the country.
Again a lot of western prop
56

Mashimaro,

China 22/04/2008 06:24:50
#36 Again a lot of western propoganda has gone in to making Chiang's government out to be the victims here. They were not. The real victims are the indigenous people and THEY want to be part of China.

"are you HAPPY with whats going on in Zimbabwe? is supporting Mugabe with military hardware a good use of YOUR foreign aid? if you agree with whats going on there, well there isnt much of a conversation left to have... if you object... what will your government have to say???"

Personally, no I don't agree with what is happening in Zimbabwe. I have many friends there and it is hard to see them suffering. I wish the British had had the balls to hang on to it. But they did not. China's policy in any country is that it will not tell that country how to conduct itself. It deals with everyone. So as the de facto leader of Zimbabwe, it has to deal with Mugabe. If he chooses to buy guns, he can buy them from us. If he wants military training, he can get it from us.
Not many countries have a perfect foreign policy. China is included in those.
However we are not giving "foreign aid" to Zimbabwe. It's nothing personal, it's just business.
Mostly, China prefers its investments in countries to produce solid results so it prefers to build infrastructure rather than yap away in someone's ear, because you might have noticed, yapping never really works. So we go in and build roads and hospitals and clinics and communications structures which eventually will benefit everyone, and we allow the people to sort themselves out.

57

Mashimaro,

China 22/04/2008 06:26:34
#51 obviously not dude or else we would be having this conversation in Chinese.
58

Mashimaro,

China 22/04/2008 06:28:12
* awaits the usual croaks of protest from the frogs*
59

VVVVVVVVVV,

22/04/2008 09:55:26
I am very tired of all those chinese crybabies.
Thinking that we have to wait the end of the Omympic games to stop hearing those complaints makes me sick.
One for sure : NO WORLD CUP IN CHINA EVER.
60

,

22/04/2008 12:08:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
61

Pmonkey7,

22/04/2008 15:18:25
#36 Again a lot of western propoganda has gone in to making Chiang's government out to be the victims here. They were not. The real victims are the indigenous people and THEY want to be part of China.

That is simply not true, sorry Mashimaro. Nobody I have met wants to fight with China, but I have yet to speak to a Taiwanese who calls themselves "Chinese" or expresses any wish to be 'part of China'.
62

SouthernGent,

22/04/2008 19:51:04
#52

Bad argument with improper facts. Try again.

For starters, the native americans did not occupy all of the continent, so they could not have owned it all. And they are not native to the continent either. They came from the south. So do your homework.

If you continue your reaserch, you will also find that many of the original tribes have their own land and are not governed by the US. They make their own laws and are not subject to the Feds or State. Can you say that about Tibet? Many tribes are doing quite well as they have built many casino complexes, even in States that do not allow casinos. Tibetans can't even pray as they like, much less set their own laws.

Next time, compare apples to apples instead of using oranges.
63

postmark54,

Chongqing, China 22/04/2008 23:41:37
#62 SouthernGent,
Speaking of apples, you're really out to lunch, aren't you? First of all, I had said the Americas, that includes both continents, so much for your 'coming from the south' theory. Besides, DNA testing has proven that they came from the east, as in the orient, so much of your 'coming out of the south' theory again. Take a good look at the natives, and you can clearly see their oriental heritage, you don't really have to take a good look, a mere glance will show you.
No tribe has full self governing powers, they all fall under federal jurisdiction and law. Do not think for one minute that they are separate from the state, federal government and their laws. They are not separate, and all hell would break loose if they did try to separate like the Dalai Lama bunch did in Tibet.
None of those tribes could actually hold on to their lands if the government decided that they need it for themselves.
One more thing wise guy, the west had no right to conquer the Americas, but they did, and therefore are guilty of invasion and occupation, I don't care what kind of spin you're trying to put on it. Those are the facts.
Get your facts straight before you come knocking on my door again. Go argue with a three year old, maybe you can win that argument, with me you're out of luck.
64

SouthernGent,

23/04/2008 00:52:53
#63

Your insults only subtract from your credibility. Discussion with insults usually means lack of character.

The west doesn't occupy all of the "americas", so again your facts are incorrect. By using your reasoning, we would have to go back to the first set of cave men to see which ones were the agressors. I guess you know that too. So which was it?

The natives originally may have come from the east, but they came to North america from the south. And since you are such the expert, when was the last time you were on a reservation?

Facts, as you put it, are what you think you know today, yet may very well be different tommorrow.
65

Mashimaro,

China 23/04/2008 01:10:32
#61 PMonkey
First of all I would suggest you look it up on Wikipedia.
Second - How man INDIGENOUS Taiwanese have you spoken to? Most of them don't live in the cities and are not even ethnic Chinese.
Third - Chiang had 36 years of martial law during which any such protest was crushed and people executed. I would think even today people would be very reluctant to voice their approval of rejoining the mainland.
66

Mashimaro,

China 23/04/2008 01:27:28
Naijaman,Nigeria
But before you pull yourselves up far enough to join the human race and gain repect etc etc - could you stop sending stupid scam emails about African leaders' families who have a bajillion dollars they just need to access?
67

Mashimaro,

23/04/2008 05:14:53
Southern Gent

Dude, the American "Indians" came from Asia - probably Mongolia across the Beiring Strait. Only 34 of them made it and from there they populated the two continents right down to the bottom.
68

,

23/04/2008 10:58:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
69

Pmonkey7,

23/04/2008 12:05:17
65
Mashimaro

I really dont think you understand Taiwan at all if you think anyone is 'afraid' to say anything.

Thanks for the wikipedia suggestion, i will take it in the jovial manner i presume it was intended.
70

Mashimaro,

China 23/04/2008 12:16:08
#69 Nope, I'm not joking.
Did you know that Taiwan has more executions per capita than China?
71

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 23/04/2008 13:12:38
#64 SouthernGent,
The reason I say the things that I do to you is because you insult yourself. You're a moron of the greatest proportions, and know squat about the American history, that includes both continents. The only other fact here is that you are stupid, and shoot your mouth off about something you know nothing about.

I set foot on many reservations while living in Canada, having worked extensively in the oil patch doing explorations.

The American Continents were invaded 100% by westerners, and they slaughtered untold millions.

The only one that needs to go back to the cave is you, and maybe you can start from scratch, the first time you failed miserably. Get a life and call yourself anything but a gent.
72

Pmonkey7,

23/04/2008 13:29:30
#70

ok then, how many executions in 2008? 2007? 2006?
73

Pmonkey7,

23/04/2008 14:24:58
#70 come on Mashimaro, you could use wikipedia to find out....
74

Mashimaro,

China 23/04/2008 15:05:25
Sorry dude, I don't do people's spade work for them. If you're so darn interested look it up yourself.

Meanwhile, here is the per capita rate.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_exe_percap-crime-executions-per-capita
75

Pmonkey7,

23/04/2008 15:27:15
Well 'dude', that would be zero, zero and zero. Policy change I am afraid.

Not that i can see what Taiwan's execution rate has got to do with anything.
76

Pmonkey7,

23/04/2008 15:33:17
Just looked at that link, figures are from 1998!! Come on 'dude'.

77

Mashimaro,

China 24/04/2008 00:11:17
And what were China's figures from 1998? Have they not improved drastically?
78

Pmonkey7,

24/04/2008 04:42:50
Who cares?? China can do as they please, i have not commented critically about China's policies.

However, if you really want to know, do your own spadework. If you are so darned interested in execution rates of all things.

79

Mashimaro,

China 24/04/2008 09:26:16
It looks like the ship is being recalled. Well done Africa.
80

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

24/04/2008 10:05:23
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17724

You cannot believe a word that China has to say on the matter of executions...well not any 'official' words anyway...are they really going to tell the world how many executions they are carrying out each year...and the laughable thing is....does China really know or care how many executions it is carrying out per year?
81

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 24/04/2008 11:53:45
#80 Horrible Cankers,
How many times do I need to tell you that Amnesty International is a scam? They say whatever the west wants to hear to guarantee funding from the likes of you. They are a watch dog with no teeth and lie whenever it suits them, and all you suckers fall for it every time. It's just like giving money to any church, just another scam.
I will believe the stats coming out of China by the Chinese long before I believe any of the crap the west spins out. You have no idea of the casualty rate in Iraq either, and your government along with the USA government will do anything to cover up what the real death toll in Iraq is. Clean up your act first before pointing your finger at us.
82

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

24/04/2008 18:15:13
Sorry Skidmark but your country aint known for its honesty but more for its secrecy and deviousness...

Rather a watch dog with no teeth than one with no ballocks mate....what's on the menu the night then eh?
83

Mashimaro,

China 25/04/2008 01:14:36
Postmark...why do you give this foul mouthed cave dweller the time of day, dude? She's so obvioulsy a CIA mouthpiece tasked with disrupting any discussion and spreading lies.
Just don't feed the troll man, eventually it's forced to go outside and deal with the world.
84

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 25/04/2008 09:43:32
#83 Mashimaro,China
Bad habit I guess, sometimes I feel the strong need to stick up for our country, and she badmouths it in every way possible, something I have difficulty overlooking.

Her little diner stories just show her true character, and she has lost a lot of support judging by the many negative comments I've read, which have been aimed at her. Those stories don't bother me personally, but her vindictive comments directed at China are inexcusable, and show that she lacks intelligence and education.
85

Mashimaro,

China 26/04/2008 10:41:58
No, Dude, when they're that far gone all you can do is put them out of their misery.
86

Naijaman,

Nigeria 29/04/2008 13:01:25
#66, I never knew that it takes one to tango. Only fools and greedy people will fall for scam mails. When you see any victim, ask him which one he is.

And by the way, "SCAM", "FRAUD", etc. are not Nigerian words; they originated from somewhere. Find out.

Right now, we are investigating the role of dubious and fraudulent Chinese companies in wrecking the economies of some African nations. You think its your turn to rape Africa? We are waiting for you.

87

SouthernGent,

30/04/2008 01:27:33
#71

Be careful, your superiority complex will get the best of you. Thank you for proving my point. At what point in history did easterners become westerners? Your rantings are based on timelines.

#67

Your migration history theory is only one of many. There are others that believe that migration occurred in South America first, then spread to the North. Since the so called experts can not even agree, I find it difficult believing you and your buddy from China know all. It would be wise for you both to open your mind to other possibilities.

88

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

30/04/2008 23:13:34
83...Heh heh heh heh heh.....perfect!
89

Mashimaro,

China 04/05/2008 12:20:31
#86 Nigeriaman
I didn't say anyone fell for the emails. Just that they were a pain in the hardware to keep on and on and on getting them.
China "rape" Africa? You have got to be kidding me. More like pull it out of the stone age and give it a taste of civilisation... for a fee.
The things is dude, there's only so long you can keep on blaming the west for your woes. At some time you have to grow up and realise that the solution has been in your hands for more than 2 decades and you still can't get your act together. You can't blame a tiger for hunting in the sheep pen.

 

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