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Tackling youth crime: A £100m waste of money



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Published Date: 23 August 2007
A £100 MILLION Scottish Executive crackdown on youth crime has had no measurable effect on offending, according to a damning report published today.
Ministers in the previous administration launched a stream of initiatives to target youth offending, from antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) and youth courts to rehabilitation schemes for young offenders.

But Audit Scotland today suggests some of the schemes may have been worthless. While the new programmes have sent the youth-justice budget soaring by £101 million, from £235 million in 2000-1 to £336 million in 2005-6, the number of persistent young offenders (PYOs) has gone up, rather than down.

The report challenges the new SNP administration to take major strides to improve services and reduce youth crime.

It has, more fundamentally, raised doubts over the wider approach being taken to prevent young people from straying into a life of crime, leading some to question whether the system can cope at all with teenagers who are already "hardened troublemakers" by the age of 14 or 15. Funding on youth-justice services run by councils, police, the Scottish Children's Reporter and other bodies has risen by 43 per cent, but auditors found little clear evidence that the money was well spent.

"The impact on the improved services and outcomes is not yet demonstrated and limited progress has been made over the last five years on taking forward several key recommendations from our earlier reports," say the report's authors.

"This raises important questions about the extent to which the new investment offers value for money and delivers effective use of resources."

A glut of programmes to tackle young offending have been introduced in recent years, including police warnings for anti-social behaviour, fast-track hearings for persistent offenders, specialist youth courts and ASBOs. Rehabilitation schemes, to try to divert troubled youngsters from entering a life of crime, have also expanded.

But judged on the one indicator that the Executive paid most attention to - the number of PYOs - the reforms appear to have failed.

Cathy Jamieson, the former justice minister, set a target to reduce the number of PYOs by 10 per cent between 2003-4 and 2005-6, but the numbers rose 15 per cent from 1,201 to 1,388. Some 17,624 young people were referred to the Children's Reporter on offence grounds in 2005-6, with an average of £19,000 from the Executive's youth justice budget spent on each.

Bill Aitken MSP, Conservative justice spokesman, said: "We are going to have to recognise the children's hearing system simply is not able to cope with 14- and 15-year-olds who have, in many instances, already become hardened troublemakers."

Dr Lesley McAra, a criminologist at Edinburgh University who specialises in youth offending, said a large number of troublesome young people could be helped by targeted, proven intervention schemes.

But she said more effort should be put into breaking links between youth crime, deprivation and bad parenting. "Parent classes should be held in schools, to ensure young people have the appropriate skills to give their children the right start," she said, echoing a call by Chief Superintendent John Carnochan, head of Scotland's violence-reduction unit.

The report, Dealing with Offending by Young People, also criticises the impact of punitive ASBOs for under-16s, which it says has created "tension" with the children's hearing system.

The report states: "Most councils have found it difficult to overcome the differences between the child-centred focus of youth justice under the children's hearings system and the community-focused design of antisocial behaviour legislation."

However, the report does acknowledge progress in several aspects of youth justice since Audit Scotland published a damning critique of the system five years ago.

The improvements include the establishment of standards for youth-justice agencies, speeding up the children's hearing system and providing more services for young offenders.

Ms Jamieson declined to comment on the report, arguing it was the job of politicians to look forward rather than back.

The report welcomed a commitment by the Executive to introduce more robust measures over youth offending. A spokesman said: "The new system will not simply count instances of a young person being referred five or more times, it will take into account changes in the volume, frequency and seriousness of youth offending."

Ministers have also pledged to invest proceeds-of-crime cash recovered by the courts into community projects to encourage young people to lead law-abiding lives.

The full article contains 748 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 August 2007 10:59 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Youth crime
 
1

Edward,

23/08/2007 00:19:45

Thanks Labour for wasting time and money, youve cost Scotland £ 100 MILLION!!!

2

I'm no really here,

23/08/2007 00:23:59

"We are going to have to recognise the children's hearing system simply is not able to cope with 14- and 15-year-olds who have, in many instances, already become hardened troublemakers."

Why is it that the authorities always take so long to realise what is plain and obvious to others.

3

Edward,

23/08/2007 00:46:13

'Ms Jamieson declined to comment on the report, arguing it was the job of politicians to look forward rather than back'
Perhaps now those that voted Labour at the last election realise how crap Labour really are and cost them , the taxpayer millions!

4

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 00:51:25

So who actually got the £100 million and how was it actually misused ?

Presumably some schemes & initiatives set up under the control of identifiable individuals (with or without possible political affiliations) got some of it ... no mention there in the story ..

How about the Executive look back at how the money was used and let us know if there were any irregularities ...

5

Guru Gordon,

US 23/08/2007 00:52:51

Ms Jamieson declined to comment on the report, arguing it was the job of politicians to look forward rather than back.

This is probably the most damning indictment yet of the incompetence of the old Labour administration. Question for Ms. Jamieson. How on earth can you look anywhere when your head is so clearly lodged firmly in your rear orifice?

6

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 23/08/2007 00:59:37

And how much of the money was spent on the kids ?

Plenty of jobs for adults, advisors, consultants and paperclip counters, not surprising the statistics remain unchanged really.

Of course Ms Jamieson declined to comment, its not like it has anything to do with the former justuce minister.

Yeah right

7

Guga II,

Rockall 23/08/2007 02:10:39

£336 million spent in 2005-06 on persistent young offenders is a total disgrace. When will governments realise that these little thugs and neds only understand one language. Bring back the birch for the neds under 14, and the cat o' nine tails for the rest. That will work out a lot cheaper than £336 million, and I'm willing to bet that there will be a rapid decrease in the numbers of repeat offenders.

8

,

23/08/2007 02:34:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

Scars,

Dubai 23/08/2007 02:43:17

ZERO Tolerance !!!

These little sods get away with everything short of murder, where does it end? Its a symptom of cultural change and general ambivalence by their parents. These kids need a short, sharp shock and the government go about it all the wrong way.

Go to the Netherlands and watch the teen cluture there, civilised, liberated and seemingly without any of the viscious angst embedded in this yob culture in Scotland ..

This said, probably most folks on this site could find somewhere locally where it would be without fail to find neds and yobs loitering ... Dont take a rocket scientist to find them ... What do you note is missing ? Erm ... A police presence ... Where is the deterent ? Where is the process to change the culture and mind set .. Where is the pressure to penalise the parents of this ? After all, the parents must see that they are the key and that to continue to ignore it, whether by direct action or applied goverment action is to fail in their responsibilities as a parent and as a responsible member of society .

ASBO ? What a waste of time ... Get them doing hard labour ! Stick them on a plane to Basra and have a week doing chores around town . If they still advocate their usual demeanor, I'm sure there are plenty of places there they will soon find a semblance of reality.

There is no excuse for this !!

10

Don't run greetin to me when you break a leg!,

Falkirk 23/08/2007 02:43:17

"I'm not really here" please note that the ‘authorities’, well at least, those working at the sharp end, are well aware that the children’s hearing system has no deterrent effect on a 14-15 year old recidivist. Given the chance it would be changed tomorrow.

Until we accept that the E.C.H.R. legislation is so deeply flawed and abused that it should be removed from the statute books nothing will change.

Remember, if you are a law-abiding citizen you have no rights!

Civil liberty campaigners have done more damage to this country than most. The only people visibly assisted by their incessant bleating are the criminals and the terminally lazy dole pole brigade.

Don’t forget

E very---C riminal---H as---R ights.

11

Boy Wonder,

23/08/2007 03:05:47

" ... Ms Jamieson declined to comment on the report, arguing it was the job of politicians to look forward rather than back ... "

Disgusting attitude from a former Justice Minister.

It's YOUR job how the job was done or not done under YOUR tenure, Ms Jamieson!

And our right to know how OUR money has been spent!!

Publish the report now. Get the finger out and tell us what we need to know!

And we'll know to avoid a Lab/Lib govt in future!

12

Boy Wonder,

23/08/2007 03:07:20

I keep missing out words. Sorry ... it should read ...

"It's YOUR job how the job was done or not done under YOUR tenure, Ms Jamieson!"

Apologies!

13

Boy Wonder,

23/08/2007 03:08:02

"It's YOUR job to KNOW how the job was done or not done under YOUR tenure, Ms Jamieson!"

I'm tired ....

14

Calgacus,

23/08/2007 03:10:30

I'm no really here #2

"Why is it that the authorities always take so long to realise what is plain and obvious to others."

Because those "others" keep electing failed administrators like Cathy Jamieson. Presumably, the good people of Carrick, Cumnock & Doon valley think she did a fine job.

15

Boaby Dazzler,

The land of Ikidunot 23/08/2007 03:41:29

Neds face the threat of mortal violence being visited on their person everyday. It holds no fear for them.

Why do some people think that the threat of the birch will make them desist from their anti-social behaviour?

The hard man image that these emotional inadequates crave is the problem - the threat of corporal punishment will only enhance that image.

Why not threaten them with something they actually FEAR like an EDUCATION. Education is like Kryptonite to them.

Lock them up and don't let them out till they attain a certain level of education. Turn jail (another hardman badge of honour) into the school they can't escape from - till they've actually learned something. This is ned HELL.

Oh yeah, one last thing, put lots of - as they see it - "Gay" subjects in the curriculum ...let's make them SUFFER!

16

The Fly Fifer,

23/08/2007 03:43:11

At last some recognition of the fact that the low life in in Scottish youth is now running the country to ruin.

At least when the new religious system comes into place over the next 5 - 10 years they will be dealt with properly.

But maybe just maybe Scottish parents could take their responsibility and start looking after and teaching those scum but guess what ..........ain;t going to happen

17

The Fly Fifer,

23/08/2007 03:44:50

SCOTLAND could face attacks by "home-grown" terrorists unless urgent action is taken, according to a prominent Muslim community leader.

Mohammed Akram, president of the Council of British Pakistanis (Scotland), warned there was no evidence that the country would be "immune" to incidents like the 7/7 bombings which targeted London's transport network.

18

Bald Archie,

Somewhere far away 23/08/2007 04:13:40

#16 Dazzler

Brilliant idea - this is exactly what we should do. I think they should only be let out when they have finished knitting 3 Aran sweaters, and have read the complete works of Jane Austin.

Alternatively, you could send them to some real disaster zones around the world like Bagladesh, Mozambique or the favellas of Brazil, so they can see first hand what happens when there is no safety net or reliable law and order. See how much of a 'hard man' they can be in these places.

19

The Daleks,

23/08/2007 05:16:36

#19

They should give Clatty Jamieson a one way ticket to the favellas of Brazil.

What was here major suggestion for fighting youth crime?

Oh that's right, ban Buckie, and all will be alright with the world.

Or did I just dream that?

20

Ubi,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 05:35:42

If only £100m was the sum of it.

This country idly stood by and watched as the UK government under Blair and Brown wasted hundreds of billions of the people's pounds on the NHS, Iraq, one wacky computer scheme after another, mad rail subsidies and countless other whizzo initiatives for playing with ideology.

What did we get for our money ? With a 42% burden of taxation why do services remain at third world levels after ten years of pork barrelling. Things could only get better, if you recall.

The electorate never asks the question. It just falls for the same gag every time.

21

mr chips,

23/08/2007 06:05:03

A glorious failure by the ever useless crapy jimmison.

Ms Jamieson declined to comment on the report, arguing it was the job of politicians to look forward rather than back. What a pathetic excuse this wummin is for a politician.She should go back to painting and decorating as she is a waste of space and money as an msp. I feel sorry for the idiots that voted for her as they must be retarted and like herself out of touch with reality.

22

Gordon,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 06:08:56

The biggest problem with "the previous administration" was that they looked at each SYMPTOM individually, and tried to treat the symptom, rather that look at the whole picture, and then deal with the underlying CAUSES of the problem.

Youth crime has been on the increase since the 1980s - when the WORK PERMIT system for under 16s was introduced.......................a coincidence??????????????

23

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Don't blame me, I didn't vote for any of them. 23/08/2007 06:09:20

Nothing will improve until PARENTS are punished/dealt with together with their children.

If we have the RIGHT to have kids, then what comes with that is the DUTY to care properly for them.

This pattern should be asserted from birth, as by teen years it may be too late.

24

mark mccann,

23/08/2007 06:09:27

AM2, where are you?
Have you finally realised the futility of defending the indefensible? have you finally clicked?
Please be on the M74 southbound.

25

an interested party,

23/08/2007 06:19:10

100 mil spent on punishment and it doesnt work

would have been better to split the money up and just bribe the kids

26

Son of Gramsci,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 06:23:02

I'm so shocked to be agreeing with Bill Aitken MSP, but he is just so right when he says that "We are going to have to recognise the children's hearing system simply is not able to cope with 14- and 15-year-olds who have, in many instances, already become hardened troublemakers."
The children's hearing system should be kept for children. For better or worse, these troubled 14 and 15 year olds in our society are young adults and have to be treated as such. They are no longer children as they are no longer under the control of their parents or any other responsible adults. They make their own choices, and have to face the results of those choices.

27

James (1),

23/08/2007 06:28:52

#26 I think you will find you are partly correct. Yes £100 million was spent/wasted but "punishment"?
You will find we don't do punishment anymore.
Too soft and we a now seeing the results. Each year more schemes are implimented rather than apply short sharp shock tactics.
But after all we would not like to infringe these little angels Human Rights.

28

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 23/08/2007 06:40:07

While a £100 million isn't a huge amount is shows the previous executive didn't (probably still don't) understand the problem of youth crime.

There is no deterrent to crime and no incentive to turn away from it.

While I'm not proposing public floggings - there needs to be a change from the touchy feely pproach introduced in the seventies.

#16 is right stick them in prison and make education the factor determining their release - or better yet only let them out once they have secured the promise of employment - prisons can train people to fill the gap in skills.

Work is also a good way to create reponsible citizens.

Educate new parents but punish bad examples - make them know it's their responsibility to ensure their sprog doesn't turn into a drunken thug.

Fine the parents of children found drunk - it might convince to take more interest on what they get up to on Saturday nights.

Curfews could also be considered but that's a tad draconian.

And of course the good old favourite but I believe it would work - National service!

29

Cadgers,

Perth 23/08/2007 06:43:37

Well well, the chinkens are coming home to roost. Cluck,cluck jamieson.
There should surely be some sort of public enquiry, after all it was public money tipped doon the drain.

30

GD,

Stop I want to get off 23/08/2007 07:10:49

We'll never get anywhere with youth crime until they start making irresponsible parents pay a heavy price for the actions of those in their charge.
More police and less alcohol on the streets would help, but ultimately if parents aren't forced take responsibility the situation will get progressively worse.
Let's see heavy fines plus naming and shaming of young criminals (and their parents) guilty of crimes against their communities.

31

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News Room 23/08/2007 07:20:56

1/ That cost pales into insignificance against the cost of the crime in police time, hospital treatment, days lost from work, early retirement caused through stress & injury, and the cost of vandalism, which must be easily into the £ billions.

Many businesses have been forced to close, or indeed will not expand or develop into new territory.

The childrens hearing panel ystem requires a full overhaul, and at the risk of spending more money.... I would like to see a parents hearing panel, whereby accountability is decided, and the parents are brought to book, and if they are found to be wanting, they can stump up the cash, or forfeit benefits.

Yours etc

Angus Whitton

32

paulr,

23/08/2007 07:23:19

"providing more services for young offenders" hear hear lets all chip in and help after all the poor offender really needs more of everything, never mind the victims.......

33

Pete39,

Tassy 23/08/2007 07:30:17

Ah well, Google Isle of Man Birching and read some news. Those guys could cope with 500,000 visitors a year and very little crime. A popular holiday destination for the Glasgow hard men. Two folk, evidently a councillor and another person changed it all, I do not know if they are still alive, but would be interested if they still held the same attitudes. What the hell, I am approaching seventy and still have the attitude that the government is not fit to look after your kids.

34

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 23/08/2007 07:47:32

Are the hang 'em and flog 'em lot so stupid that they don't realise that their victorian approach to punishing the poor failed miserably and only made matters worse? Just like how extreme punishment in the US has caused more crime.

The problem is that this these millions were spent on increasing punishment. That's why they failed.

Sound social policies are what reduces crime not some reactionary penal reform. Ah, the good ol' Labour party, they can rely on the idiots to blame the poor rather than criticise their legislation. Just like the Tories.

35

Jay Kay,

Burntisland 23/08/2007 07:51:00

I totally agree with most of the comments here. For far to long the softie liberalist doogooders have totally ruined our once proud system. In glenrothes a couple of months back a gang of 14 and 15 year olds got tanked up on a friday night took knives out into the streets of glenrothes looking for trouble and some poor innocent guy lost his life and his children lost their father.

What happened to these kids I think they got 14 years and will probably be out in 5.

Totally wrong these kids and their parents need to be sorted out now, not a year from now we need to give the police all the power in the world to arrest and punish these people right away.

As for the ASBO god give me strenght the kids around the glenrother area use them like a badge of honour "oh I have 5" " Well I have 7" for crying out loud.

I always remember the story told to me by my father of a famous villan in Methil when he was growing up, this guy was the real McKoy, Hardened criminal, drinker, fighter, No one was safe from this guy oh but he was birched wasn't he, given ten lashes. Changed him overnight he became a law abiding citizen and is still alive to this day and you bl**dy well ask him if the Birch doesn't work, it does because he knew if he continued on his life career as a criminal he was going to get ten more.


Now you bleeding hear liberalists tell me it doesnt work, these kids deserve the punishment the openly carry knives and not you wee pen knive noooooo, these kids are carrying around things that would make crocodile dundee run for cover.

What is going on and wrong with our contry the answer is simple the bl**dy softies are in charge.

36

leith lover, poet and scholar,

peoples republic of leith 23/08/2007 07:55:09

The Scottish Executive wasting money? No - surely not?

The Scottish Parliament should never have been built and this devolved Government is costly nonsense!

I bet most of the complainers here voted yes yes - its YOUR fault no-one elses!

37

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 07:57:35

#35 Alex

And the liberal approach has worked how? You lot have been in the ascendancy since the 60s and where are we? We have children SHOOTING younger children in the head. Lawless , without respect or fear and completely without discipline. I hope you lot are proud of yourselves cause its YOUR fault that this has come to pass.

38

JimC,

23/08/2007 07:58:20

#4 Nothing to do with irregularities, it's to do with outcomes and targets, both were never met, therfore the money was wasted.

39

haggis 10,

23/08/2007 08:04:18

A Scottish Devils Is the the answer starting with all the bureaucrats involved then the criminals give them official board of trade rations let them eat wild haggis and for a change they could try some Puffins. St Kilda sounds like an ideal spot an OPEN PRISON on St Kilda That is. Plenty of old cottages to live in ?????? Then we would see how well they get on with their Socialist Principles!!

40

,

23/08/2007 08:06:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 899872, Article id was mapped to record!
41

Judge&Jury,

23/08/2007 08:08:47

It's quite simple really, kids cannot be punioshed effectivvely and therefore have no fear around the consequences of their actions.

There, ther we Billy you have been naughty now don't do it again.

A couple of years later and we Billy now with a criminal record the length of his arm is being led away to the jail for having stabbed someone to death in an argument over a carry out.

The moral.

Come down hard on youth crime and make the kids so scared of the consequences, that they avoid criminal activity.

Lock the recidivists up, because some people are so stupid that they can't be taught.

Anyone got any stats on how many of the criminals in Scotland are in full time employment?

42

nabodican,

Skye 23/08/2007 08:11:39

Give them a damn good thrashing I say!
The basic problem is that this namby pamby, do gooder liberal state has removed all forms of physical punishment with the result that from an early age kids get away with it - you can't even give your own kid a clip around the ear when they misbehave and then at school the teachers have an impossible task.
There is no question that corpral punishment does work - it is the law of nature and no liberal do gooders can change that.

43

David Akers,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 08:12:12

Where we live in Edinburgh vandals burned a disused building on Sunday night, this building was being used as offices for the builders of a nursing home that has just been completed, last night once again these vandals have been at it again, and found tins of paint in this burned out building an have scattered the contents every where, no matter what is spent what is needed is real deterrents, forget all the do gooders bring back corporal punishment from school age upwards.

44

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/08/2007 08:13:11

Well it's not as if the £100 million actually left Scotland (well most of it anyway) so it's not as if it's actually cost "Scotland" £100 million. In fact, we made £100 million.

The point here is that the initiatives that it paid for failed. We must now take another approach....perhaps an approach we have already taken in the past but was dismissed as being un-PC or too brutal or unsophisticated in it's design.

45

Sam Mond,

Mars 23/08/2007 08:13:37

It's quite simple, punish the parents of minors. Hit them where it really hurts - actually review what would hurt most.

Once a child legally becomes an adult then punishment should fit the crime - no minimum sentences, life means life, 5 years means 5 years and no time off for good behaviour. Instead, parole is only considered at the end of the sentence IF you have a good behaviour record.

Bin the Human Rights legislation, or at least make it so that the innocent are protected rather than the guilty.

Offer alternatives to prison for minor offences - proper alternatives and not some under managed community service. If 50 hours are given as punishment then the time should be spent working - not chatting, smoking etc. and the work should fully benefit the victims. Better still, set them to work clearing all of the recyclable and reusable material from landfills.

46

leith lover, poet and scholar,

peoples republic of leith 23/08/2007 08:17:24

corporal punishment is not the answer - if the offender is not of legal majority and cannot be tried and convicted as an adult, then the parent is held responsible and should be punished. The issue here is half of these young offenders' parents dont give a damn about where their kids are and what they are up to - Hit them hard, where it hurts!

I also think that boot-camp style short detention centres could be the answer - they could be housed in several of the schools the cooncil are closing - or is that land earmarked for property development?

47

Xena - Warrior Princess,

23/08/2007 08:19:40

I agree with most of the comments, the youth of today are not scared of authority, and whose fault is that? It is the government that has introduced this no blame culture. I do not believe that punishing Parents who for the most part (although there are always the lot that dont give a damn) are trying their best in circumstances where the child can report them to childline. In Scotland at 16 you can leave home, get a job, marry, and still smoke (not for much longer though) and I believe that if they are this age is their responsibility for their actions.

48

ABC,

23/08/2007 08:28:06

If I were a 19 year old with a trail of offences behind me and now ended up in prison I would be extremely angry with the liberal lefties who told me I was deprived, put no checks and balances in my life when I broke the law trying to get the things that apparently everyone should have, put me in a toothless system (as my pals said while being arrested - don't worry, there's nothing 'they' can do) and once I make it to adulthood I end up in the slammer! How did that happen? Breaking the laws never got me into trouble before.

Yep prisons are bursting with people who never had to live within the laws until it's too late.

49

leith lover, poet and scholar,

peoples republic of leith 23/08/2007 08:28:45

hmmm interesting points Xena - I'd like to discuss tyem further with you, perhaps over a drink some time.

50

Xena - Warrior Princess,

23/08/2007 08:38:41

#50 I am sure it would be a lively discussion Lover.

51

Slippylizard,

Sunny rock today 23/08/2007 08:38:57

The fact is that the real money spent so far but the real cost to society of having to deal and put up with these scum. I saw a comment earlier where they sais they "stop sure of murder". The problem is they don't always stop short, they progress onto far worse. And we the normal citizens can do nothing because we have no rights. They have lawyers that are paid for by us, social workers that are paid for by us, sometimes drug habits that are paid by us and "human rights" that we have to pay for as well. Even the Scottish Executive was paying for them rather than spending money on the health service, spend it on a useless ned instead.

The big problem is that many parents do not take responsibility and their children therefore do not take responsibility. Everything is everyone elses fault. There are excuses after excuses and we just let them off all the time. When are we actually going to put these scum in prison and leave them there, give them a hard time and then a real reason to moan.

52

Slippylizard,

Sunny rock today 23/08/2007 08:39:46

Apologies for the typos previously.

53

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

23/08/2007 08:50:50

#29 Unfortuantely Nick - I think it is the touchy-feely crap that the report's authors want.

54

leith lover, poet and scholar,

peoples republic of leith 23/08/2007 08:51:03

Xena - you know and I know that the discussion would just be a prelude.........., especially if it got heated and we ended up giving each other a tongue lashing............

55

seillean a mhirdenibha,

USA 23/08/2007 08:51:45

If they want to be hard men, put them in the army, send them through a commando style boot camp, and put them on the front lines in Afghanistan. They'll meet some truly hard men there.

56

Xena - Warrior Princess,

23/08/2007 08:52:08

#55 I've got a whip!!

57

leith lover, poet and scholar,

peoples republic of leith 23/08/2007 08:55:03

what do u propose you do with it xena?

use it on the youth offenders?

Do you dress like Xena too?

58

Xena - Warrior Princess,

23/08/2007 08:55:36

#56 I agree I think they should find out what a hard man really is, and it isn't a shaven headed, tattooed caricature. I would put them in a Bad Lad's Army with no get out clause.

59

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/08/2007 08:56:10

Get a room!!!

60

Xena - Warrior Princess,

23/08/2007 08:58:12

#58 Settle petal - I wouldn't want to hurt you. If I had Xena's figure I might dress like her.

61

Xena - Warrior Princess,

23/08/2007 08:59:25

Och Dave it's the first laugh I have had this morning. It's not often you get humour on these boards.

62

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/08/2007 09:02:27

Ach ok. Sorry for being a killjoy. Carry on......

63

leith lover, poet and scholar,

peoples republic of leith 23/08/2007 09:06:01

#61 you know what the say Xena - a Hard man is good to find!

I'll take the risk! tell me more about your figure?

64

Lachie (The Hoolie) Mor,

Fort William 23/08/2007 09:07:10

JK Rowling is what we do with our neds..
Tell me where this £100 million went in this failed initiative of the last Executive ?

65

leith lover, poet and scholar,

peoples republic of leith 23/08/2007 09:10:42

while JK rowling might be an author in Edinburgh - Its a passtime in Glasgow

66

Nittenman,

23/08/2007 09:15:27

£100 million would have put and kept a lot of this pondlife in List D schools / Borstals had we still kept these things. The Childrens Reporter is an absolute joke, the amount of stuff they bin (including serious crime) is a disgrace , because it is "not in the public interest to prosecute". I think that we the public should have more say when it is in OUR interest to prosecute. The Reporter has run it's course , time for a change.

67

G,

dundy 23/08/2007 09:21:41

what's the SNP line on anti-social behaviour and youth crime?
Is it in an independent Scotland under the leadership of Big Brother (AS) our youth will no longer find it necessary to commit such crimes....and will spend their time cutting peats, learning the accordian and singing Scottish folk songs whilst roaming the glens...

68

Riley Hamish,

EDINBURGH 23/08/2007 09:21:59

Right Cathy............get yersel' on Newsnight Scotland and tell us why you've got some "very,very, very" good answers tae this question.
Let us ken whit nicht yer on.ah widnae miss it fur the world !!

69

Miss H,

23/08/2007 09:28:57

68

SNP line:

More community police

More early intervention

ASBOs pretty much a waste of time.

70

Sam Mond,

Mars 23/08/2007 09:32:50

The topic is so off that the conversation has lost its charm...

More about Zena's figure please!! ;o)

48: Zena, I think that the problem is that Social Services get their noses in too quickly. Parents are, in many cases, frightened to take their children to hospital with an injury in case the SS are called in. I know we got some looks when our daughter fell and got a black eye after hitting off a planter in the garden. As a result, Childline can be misused to manipulate a parent.

As parents, we need to rise above the threats and discipline our children accordingly (avoiding physical punishment as much as possible).

The other point is the number of parents who have children returned to them by the police only to launch into a tirade of abuse at the officer rather than their own child. What sort of example does it set?

71

FLUB,

Cowdenbeath 23/08/2007 09:32:56

#36 Jay Kay - the Police don't need any more power, any cop could tell you that. What they need is the inclination and that is being bred out of them as they employ more and more graduates on false pretences, who get promised the earth and after they don't make Chief Constable in 5 years are becoming disillusioned and just getting by doing as little as possible.

Add that to the Scottish Executive trying to increase the numbers of the Special Constabulary, and the interest in PCSOs (16 year old skateboarders, anyone?) to 'free up' the Police to deal with more serious crime. P*sh! The everyday cop doesn't get a sniff of serious crime - it's dealt with by detectives who undergo extra training.

Put all these social workers, counsellors and so on in a uniform, give them a beat, a notebook and let them lock the crooks up - that's more effective than anything else.

72

The Shark,

Glasgow 23/08/2007 09:33:48

The only way to stop youth crime is to remove the laws that stop Parents, Teachers and Police to enforce respect. Than you would not need to spend so much money of useless programs. This money could have gone towards Health and Schools.

Human rights and do gooders are kill our youth and each other. And for the EU Laws they need to be scrapped....

73

Miss H,

23/08/2007 09:37:44

67

You are not really thinking about this. It's a relatively small number of repeat offenders who cause the problem and it is not difficult to predict who they will be.

The majority of children who end up before the hearing system because of their behaviour are already known because they are at risk - bad parenting, neglect and so on.

So 'the system' as it were already knows which children are most likely to go on to become offenders.

It is not rocket science to say that early intervention is the key here. Of course it is not so easy to work out what form that early intervention should take. Do you actually go as far as removing children from their parents because of the parents behaviour? A lot of people would scream 'nanny state' at that one.

So it is difficult but the point at which the state should intervene, in whatever way, is early enough in those children's lives to make a difference. By the time they are 14 or 15 it will in many cases be too late.

74

,

23/08/2007 09:37:58
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75

Talorthane,

23/08/2007 09:38:06

"Ms Jamieson declined to comment on the report, arguing it was the job of politicians to look forward rather than back."

This is from Cathy Jamieson, the current acting leader of Labour's MSPs in Holyrood.

If this was not typical of Labour's pattern of avoiding responsibility it would be truly shocking.

76

Xena - Warrior Princess,

23/08/2007 09:44:31

#71 I completely agree with the comment about the parents giving the police abuse instead of their child! Who are these parents? Is it our generation? Is it my parents fault? My parents worked all their lives and would have been black affronted if a policeman had come to the door for one of us. We could all name these people but the only ones who would care are the ones who are really trying to discipline their children when common sense has taken a back seat for too long.

77

,

23/08/2007 09:47:19
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78

Miss H,

23/08/2007 09:49:15

16

You are spot on about the lack of fear.

I would fear the cat o nine tails but the kind of person who goes about tooled up and ready for a fight - no.

They could die any Friday night.

They don't actually care enough about their lives to fear losing them.

79

morris,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 10:00:51

9

You are absolutely correct. She was and still is a complete and total liability.I said along time ago the biggest crime perpetrated on Scottish soil was her beig made a minister. She was possibly a good social worker She sould still be!

77
I can sympathise with your confusion over whether the use of corporal punsihment works or not.It depends upon the individual child/youth but then what they get up to varies from individual to individual. Child psychologists say that the "belt" does not work. I say it does work but in a different way and to a different degree depending upon which child we are talking about.
The belt was only used on those who would misbehave! the rest were never given the belt because they were deterred by its existence and once seen was enough.If thats not working then I dont know what is. Of course the unruly ones who come back for more are a problem,but we dont stop discipline because the really stupid kids cannot learn anything at all including how to behave.,largely because their parents were exactly the same!

If its the same kids who are being belted again and again yes its true it has done nothing for them,but the majority have learned a lesson and behave !THAT PROVES IT WORKS AND THE so called child psychologists are no more qualified to understand the workings of a childs mind than any of us I suspect.

80

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 23/08/2007 10:14:54

One of the major issues is that it is the same youngsters who are offending over and over again - with the Children's Panel's taking a softly softly approach. They know that they can offend time and again because nothing will happen to them.

I am not sure what we do instead but quite clearly the present system does not work.

81

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 10:19:52

#83 AM2

Re-arranging deckchairs on the Titanic. The SNP are as part of the liberal establishment as Labour and the SLD. They're all wind and p**h. I would bet my mortgage on there being no change at the end of their time in power.

82

JG,

Fife 23/08/2007 10:28:50

The people who are responsible for producing out of control children are their parents. Every time the little brats misbehave at school (or wherever) get the parents up. Inconvenience them. If they are at work, too bad - force them to take responsibility for their offspring. Who do you think is to blame for kids being out till all hours? The kids themselves? - if you'd got away with behaving how you liked when you were young, you'd have done exactly the same thing. Or the couldn't-care-less-parents? And taking them all into care isn't the answer. There are barely enough foster carers for children who REALLY need them.

83

Alex.,

23/08/2007 10:29:35

If the parent can't control their children then we should withdraw all benefits to that family including child allowance, child credit and tax credits until they have been crime free for two months. Then watch the parents control their children. It will happen within a week. You could also withdraw the benefits for a child that fails to attend and behave in school.

84

Flabskin,

23/08/2007 10:33:43

#35 Cretin

"Are the hang 'em and flog 'em lot so stupid that they don't realise that their victorian approach to punishing the poor failed miserably and only made matters worse? ...The problem is that this these millions were spent on increasing punishment. That's why they failed."

One of the specific uses to which the £100 million were put was to recruit an extra 500 Social Workers.

It's common knowledge that 'social worker' = 'third buttock'.

Not quite sure how this equates to extra punishment, since it seems that the only function social workers perform in the justice system is to phone up victims (or their surviving relatives) as per Mrs Lawrence, and bully them for saying their husuband's murderer has never expressed remorse.

Even if she didn't.

85

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 23/08/2007 10:35:13

slaughter absolutely everyone at birth! it's the only language they understand! it's good old-fashioned common sense, it's what we did back in my day and no-one ever did anything wrong ever.

86

The Cove,

Stornoway 23/08/2007 10:40:27

How do people think the childrens panel fits in?

87

LostinFrance,

France? 23/08/2007 10:44:58

I wonder how many PYO's there actually are in Scotland. These festering sores surely cause most of the fear and distress to say nothing of the cost within the communities of Scotland.

Is there 500 or 1000? Everybody knows who they are. Lets face it, they're not the brightest. Suppose for the sake of argument there were 500 - hardcore PYO's across Scotland. That's £200,000 each out of the additional budget.

So why not give that budget to the SW Depts across Scotland to divide up equally amongst the PYO's and get them to promise to behave themselves? The incentive could be that this amount will be increased the following year!!

Reward - that's the strategy, not punishment. Give them foreign holidays, designer clothes, access to the drugs of choice etc.....

on the other hand, think how many boot camps could be built for that money.....

88

,

23/08/2007 10:47:58
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89

Ayegudyin,

23/08/2007 11:05:55

I got a good smack when I did anything wrong as a child. Even after certain laws had been passed it didnt stop my dad, because he knew the good it would do. I have thanked him for this to his face, because I might not have had the dicipline in my life which I so badly needed. the flip side to this is that some kids might get beaten so badly by over zealous parents, to the point of bullying, they react by taking it out on their local community.
I think the main point that seems to have been recognised by a lot of the earlier posts is that its the parents DUTY to look after their children. A lot of the kids collecting these ASBO's like trophies are the spawn of generations of light handed aproach. their parents were the trouble makers 15-20 years ago, and its the parents who are still in need of dicipline.
I think the best idea iv heard is to send them off to some godforsaken island somewhere, and not some paradise like Australia either. Get 1000 of the worst and make em live together, rely on each other for survival and work together as a community. Treat them as an example and dont let them off until said island is creating a stable economy and paying back some of this money thats been wasted on the problems they have caused. Maybe send Ms Jamieson out there too...

90

commonsense,

Where I can get an overview 23/08/2007 11:07:26

You reap what you sow.

We all know the majority of offenders come from bad backgrounds. Your choice,therefore is to pursue them throughout their lives dishing out punishments, (Which is what we presently do) or filter All kids as early as possible at Nursery/School with the aid of psycholigists etc to try to counteract the bigotry/racism/antisocial behaviour that the are exposed to at home.

91

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 11:07:26

#89 Keir Hardie

Mock away. But I don't see any of the softly-softly, child-centred brigade coming up with an alternative that actually restores peace and safety to the streets and instills some discipline in the lawless minority.

92

Flabskin,

Badfort 23/08/2007 11:10:59

One elephantine fact that always seems to escape the middle class dishcloth wringers is this:

The vast majority of poor people are just as decent and law-abiding as wealthier middle- and upper-class people.

To a sensible analyst, this would wholly demolish the argument that poverty causes crime.

The alternative view, that being the kind of sociopathic ned who finds it fun to beat people up/ stab them / rob them / burgle them / whatever is likely to lead to a life of poverty and deprivation has the infuriating characteristic of actually fitting the facts, and being a better explanation of the link between neds and deprivation.

Still, let's chuck a few more hundreds of millions at the first explanation. It's all working out really well.

93

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 11:13:28

#94 Commonsense

The majority of offenders seem to be kids who AREN'T beyond hope and who would react to robust discipline. They're testing the boundaries to see if they can get away with things. They trouble is that, too often, the State lets them away with things too often and they get the impression there are no boundaries til its too late and they're in real trouble. Harsher punishment, earlier and majority of kids in trouble wouldn't re-offend. The liberals are, literally, spoiling these kids and are as to blame as the feckless parents.

94

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 23/08/2007 11:26:40

#95 I've been here long enough to realise that this is not a place for serious debate.

95

Media 1,

cape town 23/08/2007 11:32:02

Bring back capital punishment and remind kids that they DONT have rights until they are adults.

We need structure at schools, good time keeping, smart dress codes, no jewellery, no cell phones and no back chat. Polished shoes, neat hair, shirts tucked in, respectable at all times. Failure to comply results in detentions, 2nd offence detention, followed by suspension, 3rd offence meets with expulsion.

It would also help if we treated prisoners like prisoners. Kids are all to aware that jail is a wonderful 5 star hotel experience with added benefits like gym, Sky TV and other top notch entertainment. There is an abundance of FREE courses paid for by the numpty law abiding citizens (haha, fools) there is excellent medical and health benefits, and a hand out of 167 pound on your release. What a way to go!

At school these kids can do what they want when they want with no consequence, they can swear, dress like slobs and disrupt classes and its cool, they can refuse to do homework and even take days off, and its cool. Then they can go to jail and get treated like guests at a 5 star hotel! No wonder they are going mad and acting like animals, its in their best interests to do so.

96

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 11:36:52

#95 Keir Hardie

Why's that? Some people have points of view that aren't the same as yours so you dismiss them? That's probably why we're in the state we're in; the liberal establishment never listens.

97

MtnKat,

23/08/2007 11:43:13

#4 Haggis 10
I like your solution.
Let's see....they'd have to rethatch, dig latrines, cultivate a garden (walled, of course), learn animal husbandry, spinning, weaving.............
Say five years? Nice set of skills they'd have and one h_ll of a different perspective.

98

MtnKat,

23/08/2007 11:44:17

I meant #40

99

Miss H,

23/08/2007 11:44:22

83

I can explain the benefits of that quite simply with an example from my own neck of the woods where the council spent a fair whack of money on a skateboard park. Only problem is none of the kids actually skateboard so it doesn't get used for skateboarding - it does get used for drinking however.

The best people to ask what services young people need are young people.


95

More community policing will help restore safety.

The child-centred approach which peopled deride is simply a recognition that the child is father to the man, or woman. We all know the saying Give me a child until he is seven, and I will give you the man.
It's a lot easier to influence the chils than the man.

100

FedUpTaxPayer,

23/08/2007 11:44:29

This is very sad, but typical of Labour.

It's sad as obviously it is a problem needing addressed.

However, it is typical of Labour, who continue to think the only way of doing anything is to throw money at it - without any notion of value for money or effectiveness.

I think Labour are utterly inept, both in Westminster and the previous Holyrood adminstration.

I'm not unhappy they're out in Scotland, I'll be happier still then they're out in Westminster.

101

Polaris,

23/08/2007 11:47:36

I have to agree with media1 #103. What ever happened to teaching youth respect for people and property? Parents are failing children but hey, the parents are still children themselves these days. What about putting some of that money into centers where kids who have nothing better to do can go and have structure. It's ok to have centers that offer sports and games as long as there are leaders there to provide help. Centers could also offer computer courses and other learning activities but FIRST, we must recognise that these troubled kids are only looking for attention. They want recognition and validation. There are ways to do that and win their trust which could be the first step. I did it when my family had to live in a block of flats dominated by asbos. I started having conversations with them and reaching them on their level by listening to what they were interested in. It wasn't long before they were coming to me with questions about how to do things. They only want to be important to someone for any reason so if they don't get the recognition for something good they go for the bad. Kids will get attention one way or the other, lets give them a good choice.

102

Polaris,

23/08/2007 11:49:57

find out what these youth are deep down in their hearts interested in and then we can help them. No more spending on reports and people to create reports. No more paperwork and committes. Build for our future... If you build it they will (eventually) come

103

,

23/08/2007 11:57:48
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104

King Doug,

Glasgow 23/08/2007 11:58:43

If 14 and 15 year olds have already become hardened offenders, then this is clearly all they know and thus they will never participate in civilised society in any positive way. Therefore, the only solution is to remove them from society permanently.

I'd like to see minor criminals being given proper education (there really is no reason in this age why anyone should leave school not knowing how to read and write, perhaps excluding those with specific learning difficulties). This should include (I'd hope it already does) significant teaching on morality, almost to the extent of brain washing. For repeat offenders, showing an inability to tell right from wrong, I'd like to see the reintroduction of the death penalty. This would, if nothing else, remove one criminal each time, and avoid them having kids and bringing them up with the same lack of morals.

I'm very much for trying to combat crime with understanding, but if someone's extracting the urine, then I see no point in their existence.

105

Thomas the Tank,

Embra 23/08/2007 12:01:41

Puir Kauffy Jamieson - she thought being Wee Joke McConman's Justice Minister was just one long round of Social-Worky Speeches, Initiative Launches, Photocalls (pity about thon Ned wi' the shellsuit and buckie-bottle, but) and throwing Taxpayer's money about like there was nae the'morra! Naebody tell't her she was actually expected to Produce Results !!!

106

,

23/08/2007 12:01:54
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107

Lithgyman,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 12:13:09

I agree with the posters above who believe that the threat of corporal punishment does not work for the kind of people who are the subject of this article.
I also beleive that the majority of these youngsters are well known to the authorities from an early age.

Early intervention, in an attempt to "head them off at the pass" as it were, may work but it will cost millions and may be just as ineffectual as the present raft of policies.

There is no short term solution.

Ned fathers (and mothers) will almost certainly produce Ned offspring. The only credible cost effective solution is to make sterilisation part of the punishment for those repeat offenders for twhom the present system has no effect.

This approach harms no one, has a very small initial outlay and will save countless millions in the long run.

It certainly won't stop crime or criminals but it will stop the establishment of the knid of criminal dynasties that we all know exist and terrorise entire communities over generations.

Just close your ees and repeat after me

"No more Neds, no more Neds, no more Neds.

108

Lithgyman,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 12:18:22

"Eyes"

109

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 23/08/2007 12:53:52

Interesting how there seems to be a broad consensus among the posters here for a more authoritarian approach to child care and justice and yet the two biggest parties in Scotland who are meant to represent the populace are still leaning towards the touchy feely route.

I think the only party in touch on this issue is actually the tories and even they are still too lenient.

110

'Hezza,

23/08/2007 13:01:30

The problem with these kids is that some you can save, some you can't. For those you can, some will need the carrot, some the stick...essentially, I suppose you are looking at personalised service for each one...and that is expensive! Someone joked that the school fees for Fettes are about the same as was spent on this (per head) - as a thought, why not examine their ability to learn and try to fast track those identified as intelligent into some hard-core educational training? If not prison-school, then educational boot-camps, with the emphasis on education.

111

Allan(handofgod137),

23/08/2007 13:14:31

#94 You do indeed reap what you sow

We are currently reaping the failure of the leftist policies which have blighted this country for years. We need to get rid of the giro culture, and stop those who refuse to take responsibility for their lives to stop breeding.

112

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 23/08/2007 13:15:40

These missing millions were spent on ASBOS and Youth Courts. Efforts to 'get tough' and they've failed.

Simple, violence begets violence. Go to the US where they have capital punishment and long prison sentences and you'll find the worst crime rates in the Western world. That is where the eedjits on this thread would take us. Reading these posts makes me understand how easy it would be to create a fascist state.

Some of these reactions are just thick. Things that relate to crime: town planning, architecture, poverty, health, education etc. Understanding how social polcies cause crime means you have to think and it's a lot easier to cry out "hang and flog and that includes the 'liberals'." The war in Iraq was supposed to be a short, sharp shock to teach lessons and blah blah blah and look what you've got now - a civil war.

Get rid of these housing schemes for a start. They breed dissolutionment and therefore crime. Give more resources to tackle white collar crime: the real neds.

The young poor people need skills and hope so that they can lift themselves out of poverty traps. It's time we thought like a national community and stop allowing ourselves to be divided by politicians. You're like the villagers with the pitch-forks and spades or witch-hunters - Qu. "why do we burn witches? A. "cause they're made of wood?"

113

Geomac,

Scotland 23/08/2007 13:28:02

Being the nice person that I am, I'm being patient and waiting for the SNP government to resolve this problem - just like they have solved many of our other problems in their first 100 days.
As ever their steps will be:
1. Announce a target for reduction
2. Set up a task group and consult the "people"
3. Propose new legislation - consult the people.
4. Hope that all the young criminals have now become old criminals
5. Claim success!
6 Move on to next major issue

114

Talorthane,

23/08/2007 13:39:59

#126 Geomac

Even if the SNP did proceed in the way you have described, it would acheive the same results as Labour while costing much less than the £100m that they squandered.

However, I tend to thnk they will tackle the issue more effectively than that.

115

Hugo, Ayrshire,

23/08/2007 14:03:42

A for effort, Z for result.

A 100 million waste of money! Well hopefully, not entirely because we now know what not to spend money on.

One early poster said there are proven schemes which work. Why have they not been given more support?

I suspect that as usual it is a complex problem with no simple 'silver bullet' solution, but we must keep trying.

116

Miss H,

23/08/2007 14:03:43

126

I don't think they will do any of that - other than consult on any proposed changes.

Labour did not consult on their anti social behaviour agenda. They did not consult local authorities, they did not consult the police, both of whom could have told them that ASBOs would be a waste of time.

Consulting is actually a good thing provided it is real and not just done for effect.

117

Miss H,

23/08/2007 14:05:01

129

Scheme proven to work - Airborne Initiative.

Labour/Lib Dems shut it down.

Why? Who on earth knows.

118

Davey Smith,

23/08/2007 14:07:51

We need to help the less fortunate in society. Not everyone has the luxury of intelligence, good family, wealth and security. Some people are the victims of poor parenting. It cost's alot to hold people in custody. A better solution is to avoid subsidising those who don't work and drink or take drugs. They should be quarantined for a short time and allowed to work in a controlled environment without benefits. They will then hopefully repeat this when released. It's a vicious cycle for young kids with questionable, criminal parents.

119

JayJay,

Glasgow-ish 23/08/2007 14:08:32

Sadly, the waste of money could have been readily predicted - only anyone who claimed the persistent attacks on the family unit, so emphatically championed by the liberal left, would undermine society as a whole was labelled a zealot.
We have a benefits system that favours the single parent - we have a culture of fathers who appear to believe their parental responsibilities end with the post coital fag. We have to read day after day of a Human Rights Act being wielded to protect the rights of genetic mistakes who see no irony in their appeal to legislation they so singularly failed to respect. We have armies of social workers who are employed to find excuses for the appalling behaviour of their charges. Parents who appear on tv, hands outstretched claiming they have "tried everything" when they patently have not.
Even today, we read of three neds who plea bargain down to culpable homicide - presumably because the guilty plea cops a lesser sentence and saves court time. Yet their crime is so abhorrent, and their mocking tone on You Tube tends to suggest they have absolutely no remorse for their unprovoked brutality. And they will doubtless be out in 5 years, boasting of their hard man credentials.
Swinging round it all, people watch 24 hour a day drivel like Big Brother, and find utter non-entities like Jade Goody can end up a millionaire whilst showing her bits and lack of intellect on national tv. and this, for many of today's feckless youth, becomes their single hope for a future life of fame and wealth.
In short, wherever we look, personal pride and responsibility has been replaced by a don't care, want that attitude, with no-one ever held accountable for their actions.
This £100m is but the tip of the iceberg. How much is wasted on these characters in police time, angst caused to their victims, criminal damage, legal fees, jail time etc etc?
As ever, we need not rely on the politicians to deliver solutions. Wee Ca

120

Miss H,

23/08/2007 14:09:44

124

That is one point of view. It kind of stumbles and falls on the basis that we have not had a real leftist government since the 1960s.

many of today's teenagers and their parents would not know what leftist or liberal values were if they came up and - very uncharacteristically - kicked them in the teeth.

No. These are Thatcher's children and grandchildren.

121

Davey Smith,

23/08/2007 14:13:38

For those of you who wish to punish, lock-up or beat the problem away. Remember, stupid people will always have kids. We need to help them when their young enough not to get sucked into to bad environments. I'm against neutering parents, but I do think its sellfish for clearly incapable people to have off-spring if they want to behave like their adolescent morons. Plenty of examples of this around the estates. I think coporal punishment for adults would work but not fair for kids.

122

connaughtboy,

23/08/2007 14:23:21

What a frigging waste on money.

"Value for money" I hear you say Wendy........

123

connaughtboy,

23/08/2007 14:23:35

of

124

connaughtboy,

23/08/2007 14:25:12

Add that £100m to the tram project and that's £1.3bn down the Swanee!!

125

Davey Smith,

23/08/2007 14:27:52

Yes it certainly is the Labour Goverments fault. Thank god the SNP are here to save the day! Maybe independence will stop crime! Hog wash. Some people are crminals and can't help themselves. I don't rob a shop and blame the Scottish Executive or Westminster. This is a local problem for councils. Get over the party politics. :(

126

Geomac,

Scotland 23/08/2007 14:36:54

#127 Talorthane

I admit that it would be difficult to achive LESS than Labour but I have seen no sign that they are likely to achieve MORE!

127

Mercat Cross,

23/08/2007 14:37:29

These problems run much deeper than people think.

Like Davey above says, you can't lock up or beat the problem away. That's just a superfical response which only ends up on putting too much strain on the tax payer through the enormous costs that punishment involves.

There is something very rotten in Scottish society and it all leads to one very simply thing.

Poverty.

If you enrich the nation across the board, you'll begin to eradicate poverty and them, lo and behold, you'll start to find that statistics on crinimal behaviour begin to decrease. Anyone who disputes this can go to hell because it's so damned obvious. And while criminal behaviour wouldn't disappear, it'd be far less a problem than it is now, simply by enriching the nation across the board as much as possible.

And the long and the tall and the short of it is that, unless Scotland changes significantly, things will remains exactly as they are and very likely continue to get worse.

And the only way we're going to get significant change is through a total shift in the way this country is governed. And the only way we're going to get a total shift like that is obviously through independence.

Throwing money down the drain with non-sensical superficial strategies like those of Labour (and the god awful "whip them I say!" attitude of the Tories) just puts this country deeper into the mire.

I really don't understand why this isn't clear to everybody. Independence allows us the chance to improve our society on every level where the union does not. It allows us the chance, above all, to enrich the nation across the board and put us in line with all other countries around Europe.

128

Jay Kay,

Burntisland 23/08/2007 14:43:40

#72 Totally agree mate we need more on the beat out of plod cars and get on the hoof, get leaner fitter cops a couple i know in Dunfermline are built like trees and just as broad, give them the power to detain and search at will any ned suspected of carrying, bang them up right away then boot camp for carrying a knive automatic 6 month sentence no argument. Unless your a joiner on call you or going to bl**dy scout camp you shouldnt have it on you.

What is hard about that and as for their bl**dy human right that should be stopped the moment you cross that line caught with a knive rights suspended immediatly.

129

jjw,

23/08/2007 14:48:38

Work camps for the parents Boot camps for the kids. With my old RSM.

130

Scott 1,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 15:13:22

The reason its not showing any measureable difference is because there is no real consequence for their actions. Too many sounbiters like to talk about new and innovative ways of takling(avoiding) crime. maybe they should commit the cardinal sin and look to the past. While older methods were not effective,for some, they were also effective for some. Just as today some methods do work, there is still many for who it doesn't!

131

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 23/08/2007 15:24:33

#105 not quite, people can and do express opposing views in an intelligent and civilized manner, but it's a bit wasted here as they get drowned out by ignorant bellowing.

132

Talorthane,

23/08/2007 16:02:22

#140 Geomac

I think if we give the SNP time they will show a fresh approach to the problem.

I think the SNP will have many good motivations for confronting this problem, but if they had no other reason, they seem to quite enjoy taking on the tasks that Labour seemed unable to address.

133

Andrew Allan,

23/08/2007 16:29:57

AM2, Glasgow / 12:28am 23 Aug 2007
‘The good thing about "The Great Deception" is that it flatly contradicts the SNP's figures. The bad thing is it's even further from the truth.’

Surely by you advocating something which you believe to be wrong AM2, you contradict the point from which you argue? Or is this just an indication at what depths you are prepared to sink, in order to escape the hole you keep finding yourself in. Both ‘The Great Deception’ and the SNP figures use the GERS 2005 as a starting point from which to contradict, but ‘The Great Deception’ goes much further by using information from other sources, including that of the Extra Regio Territories, for which 95-97% would be considered to be Scotland’s.

‘You said: "AM2, again more denial, you know very well this figure doesn’t include the Extra Regio Territories, which is totally separate from the UK accounts for some unknown reason."
Unknown?! I would have thought you were pro-European! Here:
http://circa.europa.eu/irc/dsis/bmethods/info/data/new/co...
And that figure does of course include the extra-regio territories. Are you making things up as you go along?’

As above AM2, Extra Regio Territories 95-97% Scottish, though at present is set aside in its own account, and not within any country’s account.
‘Wow, brazen! Might I suggest that you stop trying to bluff your way in areas about which you clearly know very little indeed.’

I love it when you do this AM2, for now you are going to have to prove what you say, prove I am bluffing my way in areas which you believe I know very little. Can’t wait.

134

Allan(handofgod137),

23/08/2007 16:46:07

#134 Ah the cliched response of the left, blame anyone rather than face facts. The seeds of this were sown in the 60's , when people were urged to abandon personal responsibility.

135

Ken Rogers,

Wivenhoe. Essex. 23/08/2007 16:50:58

At an early age many children can be identified as a problem in the future - sadly these children have little chance in life due to their upbringing, in otherwords poor parenting. The local police officer and persons from other agencies know this, but little is being done. WHY?

Increases in youth offending is often due to a vast reduction of family time - families being together, conflict between work and home, propped up in front of television, watching violent films and computer games.

Government - local authorities are also responsible for failing to fund youth clubs run by well trained staff, in fact many such facilities have been closed down due to lack of funding.

Sports facilities that are available are so expensive they are out of reach of many young people, particularly the socially deprived.

The time to act is now otherwise there will be increased violence and other criminal activity on our streets.

Ken Rogers. MA Criminology/sociology-Former Metropolitan Police Officer.

136

Andrew Allan,

23/08/2007 16:53:59

#83.AM2, Glasgow / 11:07am 23 Aug 2007
‘Early intervention? And what exactly will that mean? More softly, softly?
The SNP manifesto contained a pledge to “ensure local youth facilities are run by young people”. Please could you explain the benefits of that?’
A taoist story I read that went something like this: There were three brothers who were doctors, one doctor was very famous for curing the very sick, and was well know through out the nation. Another brother was less famous, and caught the illnesses before they became serious. The last brother was not famous at all, but was by far the best doctor; he was able to read the symptoms very early on before they became a risk. Early intervention with a little softly softly in some areas, is far prefrable than having to go in hard a lot later on, where it becomes nessesary to bring in curfews and detention.
‘What impact on crime is the SNP's plan to rebrand the Scottish Prison Service as the “Custody and Rehabilitation Service” expected to have?’
The renaming sets out the manner of the service, where the prison servise only tells part of the story. It then is up to other policies to cut the number of offenders.

137

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 23/08/2007 17:01:11

The seeds of what Allan? The seeds of your doom mongering? So, the victorian era was crimeless was it? All they hangings and sending folks to the Antipodese happened cause of the 1960s? Or, do you just make it up to suit your prejudices?

Poverty causes crime as do government policies. Governments don't want the blame so they get the weak-minded to blame the individuals so we all fight among ourselves and let the legislators off the hook.

Yer being played fella.

138

CASEY PURVIS,

west hills, calif 23/08/2007 17:02:23

READING, WRITING, ARITHMETIC, PARENTING.
THAT'S NOT TO COMPLICATED, IS IT.
TEACH THE CHILDREN. THEY WILL TEACH THE PARENTS!
CASEY PURVIS

139

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 17:08:46

#134 Miss

Once again, blame Thatcher. What is it with the Scots and Thatcher? We need to grow up and acknowledge that our unquestioning love affair with the Labour Party is at the root of most of our problems. The rot set in in the 60s, not the 80s. Roy Jenkins and his liberal agenda. The ending of capital punishment, the ending of corporal punishment. Labour have embraced every anti-conservative social trend and look where it's left us.

140

Miss H,

23/08/2007 17:20:20

153

I do blame Thatcher and her greed is good mentality.

I am no fan of the Labour Party but it was Thatcher who paved the way for the ultra individualistic, ultra materialistic society we live in now.

'There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families.'

That was her creed. Nothing about friends or neighbours, nothing about communities. Says it all doesn't it.

141

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 17:22:14

#151 Alex

Once again you refuse to accept that people with the same attitudes as you have had control of the tone of the criminal justice system and have responsibility for the state of society. Again, it's everyone else's fault but the criminal's. You insult the 1000s of good, law-abiding people who are poor or who have had a bad start in life but don't offend.

Of course pre-20th century punishment was excessive. People were punished for minor offences when it was literally a matter of steal or die. Noone should have been imprisoned or transported in such circumstances but that was then. No-one commits crimes to survive now.
The 50s were an example of how tough punishment and a relatively widespread prosperity equals low crime rates. Levels of serious offences, anti social behaviour and greed-based dishonesty have soared since the threat of strong punishment was removed.

142

Miss H,

23/08/2007 17:23:31

150 Andrew Allan - and AM2

AM2 has slipped up there.

It is the Liberals who want to re-brand the Scottish Prison Service the Custody and whasis service not the SNP.

143

Miss H,

23/08/2007 17:29:36

149 Ken says:

'At an early age many children can be identified as a problem in the future - sadly these children have little chance in life due to their upbringing, in otherwords poor parenting. The local police officer and persons from other agencies know this, but little is being done. WHY?'

That is absolutely right.

It would be good if the debate was about what government, police and agencies should be doing about this, rather than whether they should be doing anything in the first place.

144

Curried,

New York City 23/08/2007 17:31:17

How about neutering the whole lot of them so they stop reproducing like flys? Really, do you seriously think there is anything that is going to change their behavior? Also, stop forcing totally unusable subjects in school down their throats (History?) and teach them a marketable skill like they do in Switzerland.

145

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 17:32:41

#155 Miss H

That's a nonsense. Less state control of our lives, more freedom to make choices and take personal responsibilty for our actions do no lead criminality. The exact opposite, we have seen the State attempt totake the place of parents and it doesn't work. If your pre-disposed to criminal behviour it makes no difference. I doubt very much that the criminal element were EVER been concerned about their neighbours and neighbourhoods.

146

Andrew Allan,

23/08/2007 17:35:06

When education connects with children, they do not tend to get into so much trouble at school, and on the streets. However, to do this you must catch the children very early, much of the time with the parent making an effort not to talk negatively about Schools and their experiences. If Schools made sure, the children were of a high enough standard in English and Maths, prior to placing them in lessons which needed these skills, those children who get frustrated through lack of these skills, would find they got on much faster.
There is also a theory about multiple intelligences, which may shed some light on the way our children could be educated. Research has shown that an unusually high percentage of those who are put off school, and tend to get into trouble are what they call Bodily-Kinesthetic, and find it easier to be educated in a more physical way, as with touch. This does not mean of course they can only function in the one group, as they may have abilities within some of the other groups, it only means the bodily-kinesthetics is their strongest, and are lead in that direction.

147

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 17:38:01

£400 million over-run on parliament building, £100 million wasted on the programmes above, now £500 million on Trams, the EARL project audited and found to lack management controls.... A big thanks to Labour and the Lib-Dems for their careful stewardship of our resources.

Perhaps the government could establish an unelected second chamber at Holyrood and start flogging seats in it to recover this wasted cash, or would Labour object to the SNP stealing its ideas?

148

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 23/08/2007 17:41:00

Draco,

Your putting people in boxes of your own imagination. Ofcourse criminals have to be dealt with by the justice system but the underlying causes must be addressed by all of us. The 50s were after the war when a strong sense of purpose was prevalent. Individualism arrived in the 60s and increased into unfettered consumer culture and greed in the 80s - that's your principle cause. Family life and community have suffered as society has become greedy. Values of community have been undermined for the rich and poor.

We are all just consumers and therefore people lack respect for one another. In this context the most desperate resort to theft and violence because they have no sense of belonging to anything. If you want to see the future with these lack of values look to the Victorians or present day USA.

Excessive punishment increases cynicism and recidivism. Punishment is largely irrelevant and a debate about levels of punishment is just stupid. It's attitudes like yours, people who don't see that this is all our problem who make these problems worse. Use your brain istead of the tabloid media to get a grip on the subjct.

149

Andrew Allan,

23/08/2007 17:45:49

Draco Was a Wimp,#153.
The rot actually started to set in for Scotland in the 1880's educationally speaking, and has only gone down hill ever since, all this other trouble seeps in slowly, that is until this IT era.

150

Brian Hill,

23/08/2007 17:46:03

Dr Lesley McAra, a criminologist at Edinburgh University who specialises in youth offending, said..... .......more effort should be put into breaking links between youth crime, deprivation and bad parenting.

Throwing money at the problem may bring about a superficial change for a short time but the underlying problems caused by low level adult male involvement in a boy's life will always be there.

There has always been bad parenting and inadequate parenting as well as good parenting. But few families, if any, have all the resources and know-how to cope with every child, to make each and every child feel wanted and valued or to help each child to develop their own potential.

As a child growing up with no father in a very poor area (gas light, outside toilet etc) the whole neighbourhood was my family.

Whether I cut my head or needed some bread and jam any door was open to me. And just as importantly when I (or any other kid) stepped out of line any passing adult, male or female would give us an earful or a kick up the backside on occasions.

Of course we all had the local 'dangers' pointed out to us and avoided them or flirted with them as suited our mood.

Today’s kids are either mothballed until they are 35 or are on the streets bringing themselves up.......and of course, the streets are jungles usually dominated by thugs. Without good male adult guidance (not just parental) kids are vulnerable to the gang culture.

We have to find a middle way between my happy childhood days and today or our problems with kids will intensify......only yesterday an 11 year old was shot dead, a 14 and 18 year old are in custody.

In short, it's time to make it easier and safer for men to once again take a leading role in the growing lives of young males, beginning with primary school teachers, cub and scout masters, boys club leaders, football coaches etc

Increase the level of adult male involvement in a boy's life and we are on

151

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 17:50:14

I don't think I'm imagining that you tend towards a more liberal attitude to punishment. Yes, I believe that tough punishment deters, especially those who THINK before commiting a crime. Those who way up their chances of getting caught and what will be the consequences of their actions (for them, they tend not to give a toss about the consequences for the victim).
I'm interested, do you think that the current penalties for criminal actions are too severe? I get the impression you think they are or are adequate. Do you really think that 12-14 years is appropriate punishment for ending someone's life? Or that a fine or a few months in jail is punishment for ruining someone's life by breaking into their home?

152

Flabskin,

23/08/2007 18:01:10

#155 Miss H

You're spot on. There is such a thing as Society.

It's published every Wednesday by The Guardian, and after ten years of Nu-Lab you need a wheelbarrow to get it home, it's so full of taxpayer-funded junk jobs reserved for people like you explaining why everything that's wrong with the country is actually Thatcher's fault.

Or the Victorians.

Or anybody but the people who've actually been running the show for the last ten years.

153

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 18:06:23

#167 Flabskin. Miss H maybe wasn't complete in her post, she should probably have blamed folk like you as well, infected with the Thatcherite "look after number 1" virus that has infected "New Labour" as well.

Perhaps you should ponder that crime can be generated by lack of hope, by deprivation, unemployment - and even selfish folks will pay the price.

154

jim jones,

new glasgow canada 23/08/2007 18:14:54

Ah Glasgow Scotland 2014 host to the "Friendly Games"

Now that is an oximoran LOL.

155

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 23/08/2007 18:15:33

Draco,
Here in Spain, the punishment is very lenient compared to Scotland and you don't get neds here and you don't get agressive folks that'll chib ye for your carry oot.

I see the point in removing people from society if they are a threat but I don't really understand the point of punishment although I'm sure to some extent it works. However extreme punishment in a greedy society doesn't work. Mild punishment in a society where there are strong community bonds works much better.

If people commit acts of violence which are premeditated it means they have a mental health problem. Having lived in Spain, which has a much stronger sense of community and lenient sentencing you just don't get the same amount of psychopaths.

In a stronger society people feel ashamed when they do things wrong. In a society of greed and deprivation people have no sense of guilt or shame because they trust and respect no-one and who can blame them? In this vacuum of values crime escalates and Scotland has more people locked up in Western Europe than any other nation.

To imagine that that is not something we need to address together as a society is just ignorant prejudice.

I guarantee that as the SNP tackles poverty and strengthens a sense of togetherness, you'll see a major reduction in crime together with an increased sense of belonging.

156

Chikderic,

Inverness 23/08/2007 18:27:21

What has actually succeeded in cutting youth crime in European societies? By far the most successful approach was in Nazi Germany with the Hitler Youth. Youth crime was virtually unknown. The Young Pioneer organisation in Communist countries was almost as successful, but after the fall of Communism crime mushroomed, this did not occur after the defeat of Nazi Germany. The products of the Hitler Youth became hard-working honest citizens, including the present Pope.

157

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 18:30:40

#171 - you write very much like AM2

158

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 18:33:06

Labour and have thrown money at the 'poor' and the 'disadvntaged'. Where has it got them and us? Nowhere. There are tens of thousands of 'vulnerable' underachievers and parasites. We've tried your way for 4 decades. Only tough love will break the circle. Don't pay them to breed. Don't pay them to sit on their arses for decades. Give them opportunities, yes. Give them support for a time, yes. But if the chances keep getting thrown back in society's face, cut them off and, in needed, lock them up. For as long as is needed to accept the help offered them. Crime is a choice.

159

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 23/08/2007 18:38:36

National Service for first timers over 17, Junior National Service for those under 17. Cadets for those without ba' hairs and Afghanistan for the rest.

That'll learn 'em.

What percentage of crimes are commited by those serving in the military? Civilian crimes, that is.

160

danielrober,

Outer London 23/08/2007 18:42:53

I know it might be a strange idea after 10 years of Lib / Lab hugging the hoodies. But why not spend £100 million on nice kids. Space camp, new TV's (as opposed to stolen one), Play station3, Grenada etc.

Its not bribing the kids its rewarding them for good behaviour. That way if the are still rough and fancy an argument they can become an elected offical.

Though do be careful not to be too successful, don't become the Prime Minister you can never go home. You'll never be appreaciated.

161

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 18:47:17

"Ms Jamieson declined to comment on the report, arguing it was the job of politicians to look forward rather than back. "

Nothing like taking responsibility. Another glass of Buckie Cathie?

162

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 23/08/2007 18:47:58

Jeezo Draco,

Labour threw money at industrialists and their pals through PFI and knighthoods etc. They supported big business and let Scotland's poor get poorer and the gulf between the rich and poor get wider. If anyone has had money thrown at them for nothing it's 1) the Royal family 2) Big business 3) Their pals. The Tories started it and New Labour kept it going. These are the real parasites.

They left people festering in disgraceful housing estates being robbed by supermarkets whilst financing wars and nuclear weapons.

You don't throw money at people, you create a society where there is opportunity for all and respect for all. Where delivery of services is not about your pals having their snouts in the trough.

We need a society where people believe that government agencies are fair and honest and where people start to care about those around them again.

163

Booster,

23/08/2007 18:50:50

I've been doing some 19th century census research based in the Lothian regions and one thing that struck me was how by the age of 14 all the boys were down the Pit and girls of a similar age were also in full time employment of one sort or another.

Thank God those conditions aren't forced on children now but I wish the teenage Yobs could get a reality check on how privileged they really are and learned to make the best of their opportunities for self advancement.

OH and OK - sometimes I think the worst offenders should get 3 months down a mine hewing coal with a pick axe :-)

164

howyoudoingboy;,

23/08/2007 18:51:39

#171Chikderic,

Bring make the 'Male Breadwinner Role' to give young males. Hardworking responsible Male Role Models to follow. The Stereotype which is sorely lacking in today's society.

Society need to promote the 'Family' As in Dad with the 'Breadwinner' Job Mum looking after Children (perhaps part time work) Preferably married with Tax Advantage's. Bring back the 'Tawse' for schools to keep discipline. Compulsory sport lessons for Boys and Girls during their spare time. Keep them occupied and to learn how to work in a Team to give a proper moral guidance.

165

howyoudoingboy;,

23/08/2007 18:53:24

#171Chikderic


............................IRONY.........................

166

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 18:55:52

I blame the example kids are set:

"While some shrug off the brickbats of the right, Galloway is notoriously litigious. Ten years ago, the Sunday Telegraph reported that he staggered out of a function hosted by the Scotch Whisky Association, assaulted two women and a policeman, got arrested for being drunk and disorderly, was convicted and fined and finally sacked from the Labour front bench. It was a great scoop but the wrong George: the real offender was George Foulkes"
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/comment/0,12956,13562...

167

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 18:59:20

I blame the example kids are set:

"In 1991 Brown was expelled from the Labour Party after being found guilty of causing criminal damage to the Sussex flat of his former lover, Nonna Longden (he was cleared of stealing jewellery and two pairs of her knickers). "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007...

PS - i admired Ron's politics alot, bless him.

168

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 19:00:41

I blame the example kids are set:

"Fireraiser Watson returned to jail after appeal to cut term is refused"

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1338&id=46436...

169

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 19:19:39

#177 Alex

You continue to insult those who you my choose to define as poor by linking them with those who have no feeling of personal responsibility or who take no cogniscence of the feelings of others. Many, many people have had a less wealthy start in life or have struggled in their personal circumstances but would never dream of committing crime, particularly against those in similar circumstances. Poverty is yet another excuse. There is no excuse for some of the behaviour of today's young. Why did older generations, who lived with much greater poverty, not conduct themselves like this? Yes, communities aren't as strong as they were. You kind of mock me for seeing the 50s as some sort of golden age. But I don't think we'll ever get back to the sense of community you describe. People don't WANT to ive as extended families in one big house. People CHOOSE to live more solitary lives, unlike in Spain. With the breaking down of community pressures to conform to good standards of behaviour, the State needs to carry out that role on society's behalf. With strong punishments for those that make that choice.

170

Miss H,

23/08/2007 19:25:10

179

The brownies taught me an awful lot about teamwork.

And about lighting fires in a responsible way.

We could do a lot worse than compulsory brownie membership.

For the boys too.

171

Miss H,

23/08/2007 19:28:17

174

How much crime is committed by ex-servicemen?

You are joking aren't you?

172

Miss H,

23/08/2007 19:34:10

1173 Draco

Punishment is a choice too.

Fail to pay your TV license and you can go to jail.

Go bankrupt owing a small fortune and ruining peoples lives and you can keep your house, keep your money and even set up in business again.

What does that say about our choices and our values?

173

Miss H,

23/08/2007 19:39:09

160 Draco

If you do not want the state to interfere in family life and take on the role of parents when parents are not fit to carry out that role themselves then get used to anti social behaviour and stop whining about it.

That is how a lot of parents choose to bring up their children.

174

Phillip,

America 23/08/2007 19:46:26

Addressed to #35

The "extreme punishment" approach is more a figment of other country's imaginations than reality.

There are some abhorrent statutes on the books and there's all sorts of talk about capital punishment, yet the reality is far from what people imagine.

Just this year a pastor's wife got 8 months for killing her husband! She won't even serve a full year in jail for killing a man?!?!?!

My spouse is a cop and he rearrests the same criminals time and time again. They go to jail, serve a few months and are then released because the jails are overcrowded. Room is needed for violent criminals so the non-violent group goes free. Others intentionally get arrested because life in jail is easier than life on the streets. In jail these men get 3 meals a day, access to cable television, and free health care. Many would be homeless if they weren't in jail. So they offend and plead guilty just so that they can get better treatment than free citizens receive.

The only people with universal health care in America are those in prison!

American politicians like to talk the big talk and claim that we punish our criminals. In reality, criminals still have more rights than victims.

175

howyoudoingboy;,

23/08/2007 19:49:29

#185 missH

Brownies done well for you didn't they ?


Was that the scattergun approach to comments..rat..tat...tat..tat

176

faraline,

23/08/2007 19:50:31

Another day of extreme violence on the streets of britain, again it involves the young i belive the murder of the little jones boy is one step to far, my family tell me i always say that, but then like most british people i have values but i am sick of failing politicians who are to weak or to frightened to take the proper steps and i am not talking about those laid down by europe , but those laid down by men and just to prove today the courts release a sex offender who abused at least twenty people and an eighteen month old baby dont worry the streets are now safe he got three months community service i think its time we locked the judicery away they must be all the way round the bend

177

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 19:53:28

#189 Phillip - go back to Guantanamo

http://www.attytood.com/2007/01/please_dont_kill_me_georg...
In the week before [Karla Faye Tucker's] execution, Bush says, Bianca Jagger and a number of other protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Tucker. "Did you meet with any of them?" I ask.
Bush whips around and stares at me. "No, I didn't meet with any of them," he snaps, as though I've just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. "I didn't meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with [Tucker], though. He asked her real difficult questions, like 'What would you say to Governor Bush?' "

"What was her answer?" I wonder.

"Please," Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "don't kill me."

178

JG,

Fife 23/08/2007 20:03:50

#188 Miss H
Having read quite a few of your comments I felt I had to reply. You are right to be critical of Mrs Tharcher's "every man for himself" doctrine but the decline had started long before she came to power. I hold parents entirely responsible for their children's behaviour, with very few exceptions. I don't think the answer is to take the kids away and pass them on to somebody else (as members of the public we'd have to pay for that too) - if you have them YOU look after them. The namby pamby liberalism of the 60s didn't help anything - nor did banning the belt at school - or the right of parents to smack their children (please note I said "smack" - not thrash them to within an inch of their lives or pummel them with assorted weapons). You're right too about the inmates who make up our prison population - we're often jailing the wrong people.

179

faraline,

23/08/2007 20:06:46

MISS H. I AM SORRY AND DO NOT WANT TO BE RUDE BUT WHAT THE HELL DO THE BROWNIES HAVE TO DO WITH IT THIS IS A SERIOUS ISSUE ITS GOT TO BE ANYTHING TO DO WITH LABOUR COSTS PLENTY WITH NO RESULTS I THINK THIS IS A VERY CLEVER PLOT WE GET INDEPENDENCE AND CONTINUE TO DESTROY THE ENGLISH NATION AND THERE WAY OF LIFE WITH OUR MEN AT THE TOP SEE IF THEY VOTE LABOUR NEXT TIME

180

Fizzydp,

California 23/08/2007 20:09:25

So much for a culture that rewards single mothers and having kids out of wedlock. Unsupervised children are trouble waiting to happen. Time for boot camps and tough treatment for the parents, and the miscreant kids. In the US local governments are fining parents whose kids are missing from school, covering walls with graffitti, etc.

181

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 20:10:45

#194 - you been on the hash brownies?

182

faraline,

23/08/2007 20:18:17

AYRSHIRESCOT 196
No i havent but sounds like its illegal, so i dont doubt its available on the streets after all everything else is

183

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 23/08/2007 20:22:44

Draco,

Have you noticed in the courts that the judges don't speak with the same accent as the prisoners and in the prisons no-one speaks like the judges and yet they say no-one is above the law...

the fact is we lock up the poor. That is a fact of life caused by your outlook. Your encouraged to think with reactionary attitudes by the well off who conitinue to screw the rest of us with the full support of the system.

I am dealing with facts. Sure most of the poor do not commit crimes but a larger percentage of poorer people are criminalised by a greedy society. Is that too subtle?

The evidence then is that poverty is a major cause of crime. You can lock em up and hang like all the knuckleheads would like but that is sticking your head in the sand.

184

JG,

Fife 23/08/2007 20:24:46

#195 Fizzydp
Fair enough, but is anyone seeking out the errant fathers? The "single mothers" everyone likes to castigate didn't concieve all by themselves.

185

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 20:27:44

#197 Faraline - what street is this? I am no interested in any of your substances unless it is sold in pint glass. And if you are on the street, watch out that Georges Foulkes doesn't come steaming along, doing a batman impersonation (those were the facts of the case) and drunkenly batter you to the ground.

186

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 20:50:16

#198 Alex

Well, for once I agree with you. The judiciary does tend to be dominated by the same upper middle classes that form the kernel of the liberal establishment in this country. People who think like you. I agree the voice of the poor and ordinary working folk should be louder in the judicial process. They're the poor sods who tend to be the victims of crime and suffer from the anti-social behaviour if their neighbours. Judges should manage trials and ensure due process is crried out. Juries should sentence. I suspect you would not get the length or type of sentence you advocate. Unlike the middle classes, they're a bit closer to reality and less afflicted by angst.

187

,

23/08/2007 20:55:50
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188

Flabskin,

Badfort 23/08/2007 20:59:52

#198

"The evidence then is that poverty is a major cause of crime."

No it isn't. The evidence is that leading a zero aspirational life of low-level petty thuggery leads to poverty.

And all the regiments of clapped out class-based Marxist analysis pseud social workers in the universe won't actually make any difference.

189

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 21:02:58

#203 - Flabskin. Fair enough. I hope you don't get knocked down by George Foulkes on his next drink fuelled binge - the despair amongst the Labour group at Holyrood with Wendy at the helm must have robbed them all of hope - they will revert to their loutish, knicker-thieving ways. And dinnae gie Mike a light, no matter how he begs.

190

Dunnie,

Canada 23/08/2007 21:13:11

#159 "Also, stop forcing totally unusable subjects in school down their throats (History?) and teach them a marketable skill like they do in Switzerland.
" - say what.

History unusable? Philistine!

Teach a marketable skills like they do in Switzerland"? Oh. I see - arms, chocolate and watch salespeople?

#174 - Jock - spot bloody on!

191

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 21:13:51

#204 - How do you explain this then:

Honours police arrest Lord Levy

Lord Levy is the Labour Party's chief fundraiser
Labour's chief fundraiser Lord Levy has been re-arrested by police looking into cash-for-honours allegations.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6314881.stm

Surely Blair and Levy did not lead low life lives of petty thuggery?

192

Flabskin,

Badfort 23/08/2007 21:36:19

#207

No, and if you think about it - quite unbelievable as it may seem to you, and in contradiction to all received dishcloth wringer wisdom - they didn't grow up in poverty either.

193

David55,

23/08/2007 21:44:11

It doesn't seem that any party has a clue how to deal with youth crime. Trust me the system does not work.

194

jim jones,

new glasgow canada 23/08/2007 21:45:06

ah and Glasgow wants to host the "friendly games AKa the commonwealth games in 2014.

Funny how people in Scotland can have this vision of violent Nigeria while in denial of your own problems that cost 100s of million of pound without improvement LOL

Yes Glasgow you are going to host the commonwealth games so youth of the commonwealth can be knifed by your NEDS.

195

Dunnie,

Canada 23/08/2007 21:49:19

#209 - and who keeps re-electing these clueless parties?

196

David55,

23/08/2007 21:53:24

#15 Those comments hit the nail on the head.

197

David55,

23/08/2007 21:54:25

#212 You can only vote for one of the parties who stand. I didn't vote Labour.

198

David55,

23/08/2007 21:56:46

#16 Not a bad idea. Only problem is who would want to teach them.

What about a good kicking/birching before they get the teaching? ;-)

199

Dunnie,

Canada 23/08/2007 21:59:12

#214 - that wasn't a comment aimed at you or your voting tendencies.

I believe, my question could be asked of most people living in western democracies who complain of their government's inability to deal with youth crime.

200

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 22:07:24

#217 - Opponents can inspire. There is nothing as good as honest agruments, cleverly espoused. Sadly we don't have that and are just lumbered with doss mince-merchants like you and Kranal

201

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 23/08/2007 22:20:51

Thank the lord we've god rid of the nutcase Thatcherites and their Labour mafia department. Now we can go about creating a proper society and dealing intelligently with law and order issues.

202

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 22:30:37

#220 - and your comments on youth crime, waste of £100 million, Cathy Kamieson shrugging off responsibility, thoughts on causes of youth crime are????

I use the word mince every time you post mince, you cheeky wee obscurantist

203

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 22:40:56

#226 AM2 - nighty. and mind to take the mince off the heat before you go to bed.

204

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 23/08/2007 22:41:09

Of course, we could have the AMtwa solution to the problems of the youth of today.

Offend once and be subject to a few of his postings. Offend again and be subject to a few more of his postings.

Christ, man, lethal injection is more humane.

205

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 23/08/2007 22:43:37

Hmmm? AMtwa thinks military service is left wing.

OK. Quick march is normally by the left but I reckon he's got it all wrong as he can only do stats.

206

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 22:45:48

#228 - Jock - that would be cruel and unusual punishment surely? Force-feeding offenders a diet of mince? Jings

207

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 23/08/2007 22:45:48

Now that AMtwa has gone to bed I can reveal that quick march is normally by the right.

208

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 23/08/2007 22:47:27

Can you develop an argument? These excerpts seem reasonable.

When you properly resource the investigation of war criminals like Blair and the white-collar frausters that cost the country billions then you might start to make an impression on the vast majority of petty criminals that our society is not a money-grabbing, greed-riven den of hypocrisy and they just might develop a conscience.

Increasing punishment will not alter these perceptions.

209

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 23/08/2007 22:51:19

I had mince for tea tonight, AyrshireScot. 6 cloves of garlic in it to keep the AMtwas away.

210

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 23/08/2007 22:52:11

And cabbage to remind me of his outdatedness.

211

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 22:53:43

#234 - LOL.

212

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 23/08/2007 22:55:52

AMtwa advocates separitism in Ireland and calls us separatists.

He wouldn't know the left wing from the West wing.

213

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 22:57:04

'232 - you make a good point. When our society punishes crimes against property worse than crimes against people, when the "elite" like Blair and Levy are perceived to be corrupt, when the legality of action that kills 1000s is questionable, it must make it harder to instill "respect" into youths from areas where male unemployment is c 50% and the prospect of a decent live or role models is as distant as a mirage.

214

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 22:58:06

236 - he woudn#t ken a fillet from a rump

215

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 23/08/2007 23:03:12

238. Disagree. He known damn fine that Ulster is the rump. He's over here with his wallet to fill it.

216

AyrshireScot,

23/08/2007 23:14:28

#234 - Jock, no Ayrshire tatties wi' it? Shame. Did you get the mince from Galloway's?
On 239 - you mean he gets paid for something? What is it, some kind of witness protection/ assisted living scheme? Night.

217

Jimbu,

Alice Springs 23/08/2007 23:56:31

It sure makes you wonder where you are, sometimes! From one socially dysfunctional wasteland to another; I reckon they should fly the Scottish saltire over Central Australia. We've certainly got the 'qualifications' to show this mob how to really bugger things up.

218

Jimbu,

Alice Springs 24/08/2007 00:04:58

Incidentally, here in the Northern Territory, they've sent in the army and the mounted polis. Maybe you mob should do the same.

219

Dunnie,

Canada 24/08/2007 00:07:13

#234 - Jock - Having cabbage should also remind you of flatulence.

220

Jimbu,

Alice Springs 24/08/2007 00:28:28

Brussel sprouts!!!

221

Guga is hung like a gnat,

Rockall 24/08/2007 00:32:16

225. AM2, Glasgow

Well said!

222

,

24/08/2007 01:14:19
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223

Jimbu,

Alice Springs 24/08/2007 01:46:00

Dear Dunnie - Maybe it's an allusion to the EC.
Do you realise the word "dunnie" means an outhouse here in the Land of Oz? No inference, of course.

224

,

24/08/2007 03:28:26
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225

Allan(handofgod137),

24/08/2007 11:03:35

#151 Alex, the seeds of the breakdown of society. To put it bluntly, the majority of these neds would have died of starvation or neglect by their uncaring parents were it not for the welfare state. You're the one who's being played mate. I notice you give your location as Madrid, I suggest you move back here and start paying the extortionate taxes to support your beliefs before you get on your soapbox and spout your leftist sh*te.

226

MichScot,

USA 24/08/2007 12:27:46

How about boot camp and then Iraq? Here it is the cream of the crop who go to war. As they die off, we have a larger percentage of hooligans.

Just a question: When Scotland had more people going to church and believing in God, how bad was the problem? Here, people are trying to dump the Ten Commandments and say that everything is "relative", and along with that mindset has come more crime.

Maybe it's time to "choose your poison", as they say. Which would you prefer: true Christianity, or Islam?

227

Blackie,

W NY State 24/08/2007 13:04:33

Stop all the pandering of these neds and start putting the blame where it belongs. Stop complaining about the cost. Parents are to blame, they have grown up in a me culture and have no parenting skills. The kids need a clout behind their lugs. Start putting responsibility on the parents. If no luck, boot camps for those between 12 and 18. Special schools for those that cannot function in polite society. Longer sentences for those who commit violent crimes. Three times arrested you should be put away for a long sentence. Those that commit crimes with a weapon should get a minimum of 25 to life. Stop this politically correct crap. Send foreigners back where they came from after an arrest.


 

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