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Tackling youth crime: A £100m waste of money



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Published Date: 23 August 2007
A £100 MILLION Scottish Executive crackdown on youth crime has had no measurable effect on offending, according to a damning report published today.
Ministers in the previous administration launched a stream of initiatives to target youth offending, from antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) and youth courts to rehabilitation schemes for young offenders.

But Audit Scotland today suggests some of the schemes may have been worthless. While the new programmes have sent the youth-justice budget soaring by £101 million, from £235 million in 2000-1 to £336 million in 2005-6, the number of persistent young offenders (PYOs) has gone up, rather than down.

The report challenges the new SNP administration to take major strides to improve services and reduce youth crime.

It has, more fundamentally, raised doubts over the wider approach being taken to prevent young people from straying into a life of crime, leading some to question whether the system can cope at all with teenagers who are already "hardened troublemakers" by the age of 14 or 15. Funding on youth-justice services run by councils, police, the Scottish Children's Reporter and other bodies has risen by 43 per cent, but auditors found little clear evidence that the money was well spent.

"The impact on the improved services and outcomes is not yet demonstrated and limited progress has been made over the last five years on taking forward several key recommendations from our earlier reports," say the report's authors.

"This raises important questions about the extent to which the new investment offers value for money and delivers effective use of resources."

A glut of programmes to tackle young offending have been introduced in recent years, including police warnings for anti-social behaviour, fast-track hearings for persistent offenders, specialist youth courts and ASBOs. Rehabilitation schemes, to try to divert troubled youngsters from entering a life of crime, have also expanded.

But judged on the one indicator that the Executive paid most attention to - the number of PYOs - the reforms appear to have failed.

Cathy Jamieson, the former justice minister, set a target to reduce the number of PYOs by 10 per cent between 2003-4 and 2005-6, but the numbers rose 15 per cent from 1,201 to 1,388. Some 17,624 young people were referred to the Children's Reporter on offence grounds in 2005-6, with an average of £19,000 from the Executive's youth justice budget spent on each.

Bill Aitken MSP, Conservative justice spokesman, said: "We are going to have to recognise the children's hearing system simply is not able to cope with 14- and 15-year-olds who have, in many instances, already become hardened troublemakers."

Dr Lesley McAra, a criminologist at Edinburgh University who specialises in youth offending, said a large number of troublesome young people could be helped by targeted, proven intervention schemes.

But she said more effort should be put into breaking links between youth crime, deprivation and bad parenting. "Parent classes should be held in schools, to ensure young people have the appropriate skills to give their children the right start," she said, echoing a call by Chief Superintendent John Carnochan, head of Scotland's violence-reduction unit.

The report, Dealing with Offending by Young People, also criticises the impact of punitive ASBOs for under-16s, which it says has created "tension" with the children's hearing system.

The report states: "Most councils have found it difficult to overcome the differences between the child-centred focus of youth justice under the children's hearings system and the community-focused design of antisocial behaviour legislation."

However, the report does acknowledge progress in several aspects of youth justice since Audit Scotland published a damning critique of the system five years ago.

The improvements include the establishment of standards for youth-justice agencies, speeding up the children's hearing system and providing more services for young offenders.

Ms Jamieson declined to comment on the report, arguing it was the job of politicians to look forward rather than back.

The report welcomed a commitment by the Executive to introduce more robust measures over youth offending. A spokesman said: "The new system will not simply count instances of a young person being referred five or more times, it will take into account changes in the volume, frequency and seriousness of youth offending."

Ministers have also pledged to invest proceeds-of-crime cash recovered by the courts into community projects to encourage young people to lead law-abiding lives.

The full article contains 748 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 August 2007 10:59 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Youth crime
 
1

Edward,

23/08/2007 00:19:45

Thanks Labour for wasting time and money, youve cost Scotland £ 100 MILLION!!!

2

I'm no really here,

23/08/2007 00:23:59

"We are going to have to recognise the children's hearing system simply is not able to cope with 14- and 15-year-olds who have, in many instances, already become hardened troublemakers."

Why is it that the authorities always take so long to realise what is plain and obvious to others.

3

Edward,

23/08/2007 00:46:13

'Ms Jamieson declined to comment on the report, arguing it was the job of politicians to look forward rather than back'
Perhaps now those that voted Labour at the last election realise how crap Labour really are and cost them , the taxpayer millions!

4

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 00:51:25

So who actually got the £100 million and how was it actually misused ?

Presumably some schemes & initiatives set up under the control of identifiable individuals (with or without possible political affiliations) got some of it ... no mention there in the story ..

How about the Executive look back at how the money was used and let us know if there were any irregularities ...

5

Guru Gordon,

US 23/08/2007 00:52:51

Ms Jamieson declined to comment on the report, arguing it was the job of politicians to look forward rather than back.

This is probably the most damning indictment yet of the incompetence of the old Labour administration. Question for Ms. Jamieson. How on earth can you look anywhere when your head is so clearly lodged firmly in your rear orifice?

6

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 23/08/2007 00:59:37

And how much of the money was spent on the kids ?

Plenty of jobs for adults, advisors, consultants and paperclip counters, not surprising the statistics remain unchanged really.

Of course Ms Jamieson declined to comment, its not like it has anything to do with the former justuce minister.

Yeah right

7

Guga II,

Rockall 23/08/2007 02:10:39

£336 million spent in 2005-06 on persistent young offenders is a total disgrace. When will governments realise that these little thugs and neds only understand one language. Bring back the birch for the neds under 14, and the cat o' nine tails for the rest. That will work out a lot cheaper than £336 million, and I'm willing to bet that there will be a rapid decrease in the numbers of repeat offenders.

8

,

23/08/2007 02:34:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

Scars,

Dubai 23/08/2007 02:43:17

ZERO Tolerance !!!

These little sods get away with everything short of murder, where does it end? Its a symptom of cultural change and general ambivalence by their parents. These kids need a short, sharp shock and the government go about it all the wrong way.

Go to the Netherlands and watch the teen cluture there, civilised, liberated and seemingly without any of the viscious angst embedded in this yob culture in Scotland ..

This said, probably most folks on this site could find somewhere locally where it would be without fail to find neds and yobs loitering ... Dont take a rocket scientist to find them ... What do you note is missing ? Erm ... A police presence ... Where is the deterent ? Where is the process to change the culture and mind set .. Where is the pressure to penalise the parents of this ? After all, the parents must see that they are the key and that to continue to ignore it, whether by direct action or applied goverment action is to fail in their responsibilities as a parent and as a responsible member of society .

ASBO ? What a waste of time ... Get them doing hard labour ! Stick them on a plane to Basra and have a week doing chores around town . If they still advocate their usual demeanor, I'm sure there are plenty of places there they will soon find a semblance of reality.

There is no excuse for this !!

10

Don't run greetin to me when you break a leg!,

Falkirk 23/08/2007 02:43:17

"I'm not really here" please note that the ‘authorities’, well at least, those working at the sharp end, are well aware that the children’s hearing system has no deterrent effect on a 14-15 year old recidivist. Given the chance it would be changed tomorrow.

Until we accept that the E.C.H.R. legislation is so deeply flawed and abused that it should be removed from the statute books nothing will change.

Remember, if you are a law-abiding citizen you have no rights!

Civil liberty campaigners have done more damage to this country than most. The only people visibly assisted by their incessant bleating are the criminals and the terminally lazy dole pole brigade.

Don’t forget

E very---C riminal---H as---R ights.

11

Boy Wonder,

23/08/2007 03:05:47

" ... Ms Jamieson declined to comment on the report, arguing it was the job of politicians to look forward rather than back ... "

Disgusting attitude from a former Justice Minister.

It's YOUR job how the job was done or not done under YOUR tenure, Ms Jamieson!

And our right to know how OUR money has been spent!!

Publish the report now. Get the finger out and tell us what we need to know!

And we'll know to avoid a Lab/Lib govt in future!

12

Boy Wonder,

23/08/2007 03:07:20

I keep missing out words. Sorry ... it should read ...

"It's YOUR job how the job was done or not done under YOUR tenure, Ms Jamieson!"

Apologies!

13

Boy Wonder,

23/08/2007 03:08:02

"It's YOUR job to KNOW how the job was done or not done under YOUR tenure, Ms Jamieson!"

I'm tired ....

14

Calgacus,

23/08/2007 03:10:30

I'm no really here #2

"Why is it that the authorities always take so long to realise what is plain and obvious to others."

Because those "others" keep electing failed administrators like Cathy Jamieson. Presumably, the good people of Carrick, Cumnock & Doon valley think she did a fine job.

15

Boaby Dazzler,

The land of Ikidunot 23/08/2007 03:41:29

Neds face the threat of mortal violence being visited on their person everyday. It holds no fear for them.

Why do some people think that the threat of the birch will make them desist from their anti-social behaviour?

The hard man image that these emotional inadequates crave is the problem - the threat of corporal punishment will only enhance that image.

Why not threaten them with something they actually FEAR like an EDUCATION. Education is like Kryptonite to them.

Lock them up and don't let them out till they attain a certain level of education. Turn jail (another hardman badge of honour) into the school they can't escape from - till they've actually learned something. This is ned HELL.

Oh yeah, one last thing, put lots of - as they see it - "Gay" subjects in the curriculum ...let's make them SUFFER!

16

The Fly Fifer,

23/08/2007 03:43:11

At last some recognition of the fact that the low life in in Scottish youth is now running the country to ruin.

At least when the new religious system comes into place over the next 5 - 10 years they will be dealt with properly.

But maybe just maybe Scottish parents could take their responsibility and start looking after and teaching those scum but guess what ..........ain;t going to happen

17

The Fly Fifer,

23/08/2007 03:44:50

SCOTLAND could face attacks by "home-grown" terrorists unless urgent action is taken, according to a prominent Muslim community leader.

Mohammed Akram, president of the Council of British Pakistanis (Scotland), warned there was no evidence that the country would be "immune" to incidents like the 7/7 bombings which targeted London's transport network.

18

Bald Archie,

Somewhere far away 23/08/2007 04:13:40

#16 Dazzler

Brilliant idea - this is exactly what we should do. I think they should only be let out when they have finished knitting 3 Aran sweaters, and have read the complete works of Jane Austin.

Alternatively, you could send them to some real disaster zones around the world like Bagladesh, Mozambique or the favellas of Brazil, so they can see first hand what happens when there is no safety net or reliable law and order. See how much of a 'hard man' they can be in these places.

19

The Daleks,

23/08/2007 05:16:36

#19

They should give Clatty Jamieson a one way ticket to the favellas of Brazil.

What was here major suggestion for fighting youth crime?

Oh that's right, ban Buckie, and all will be alright with the world.

Or did I just dream that?

20

Ubi,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 05:35:42

If only £100m was the sum of it.

This country idly stood by and watched as the UK government under Blair and Brown wasted hundreds of billions of the people's pounds on the NHS, Iraq, one wacky computer scheme after another, mad rail subsidies and countless other whizzo initiatives for playing with ideology.

What did we get for our money ? With a 42% burden of taxation why do services remain at third world levels after ten years of pork barrelling. Things could only get better, if you recall.

The electorate never asks the question. It just falls for the same gag every time.

21

mr chips,

23/08/2007 06:05:03

A glorious failure by the ever useless crapy jimmison.

Ms Jamieson declined to comment on the report, arguing it was the job of politicians to look forward rather than back. What a pathetic excuse this wummin is for a politician.She should go back to painting and decorating as she is a waste of space and money as an msp. I feel sorry for the idiots that voted for her as they must be retarted and like herself out of touch with reality.

22

Gordon,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 06:08:56

The biggest problem with "the previous administration" was that they looked at each SYMPTOM individually, and tried to treat the symptom, rather that look at the whole picture, and then deal with the underlying CAUSES of the problem.

Youth crime has been on the increase since the 1980s - when the WORK PERMIT system for under 16s was introduced.......................a coincidence??????????????

23

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Don't blame me, I didn't vote for any of them. 23/08/2007 06:09:20

Nothing will improve until PARENTS are punished/dealt with together with their children.

If we have the RIGHT to have kids, then what comes with that is the DUTY to care properly for them.

This pattern should be asserted from birth, as by teen years it may be too late.

24

mark mccann,

23/08/2007 06:09:27

AM2, where are you?
Have you finally realised the futility of defending the indefensible? have you finally clicked?
Please be on the M74 southbound.

25

an interested party,

23/08/2007 06:19:10

100 mil spent on punishment and it doesnt work

would have been better to split the money up and just bribe the kids

26

Son of Gramsci,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 06:23:02

I'm so shocked to be agreeing with Bill Aitken MSP, but he is just so right when he says that "We are going to have to recognise the children's hearing system simply is not able to cope with 14- and 15-year-olds who have, in many instances, already become hardened troublemakers."
The children's hearing system should be kept for children. For better or worse, these troubled 14 and 15 year olds in our society are young adults and have to be treated as such. They are no longer children as they are no longer under the control of their parents or any other responsible adults. They make their own choices, and have to face the results of those choices.

27

James (1),

23/08/2007 06:28:52

#26 I think you will find you are partly correct. Yes £100 million was spent/wasted but "punishment"?
You will find we don't do punishment anymore.
Too soft and we a now seeing the results. Each year more schemes are implimented rather than apply short sharp shock tactics.
But after all we would not like to infringe these little angels Human Rights.

28

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 23/08/2007 06:40:07

While a £100 million isn't a huge amount is shows the previous executive didn't (probably still don't) understand the problem of youth crime.

There is no deterrent to crime and no incentive to turn away from it.

While I'm not proposing public floggings - there needs to be a change from the touchy feely pproach introduced in the seventies.

#16 is right stick them in prison and make education the factor determining their release - or better yet only let them out once they have secured the promise of employment - prisons can train people to fill the gap in skills.

Work is also a good way to create reponsible citizens.

Educate new parents but punish bad examples - make them know it's their responsibility to ensure their sprog doesn't turn into a drunken thug.

Fine the parents of children found drunk - it might convince to take more interest on what they get up to on Saturday nights.

Curfews could also be considered but that's a tad draconian.

And of course the good old favourite but I believe it would work - National service!

29

Cadgers,

Perth 23/08/2007 06:43:37

Well well, the chinkens are coming home to roost. Cluck,cluck jamieson.
There should surely be some sort of public enquiry, after all it was public money tipped doon the drain.

30

GD,

Stop I want to get off 23/08/2007 07:10:49

We'll never get anywhere with youth crime until they start making irresponsible parents pay a heavy price for the actions of those in their charge.
More police and less alcohol on the streets would help, but ultimately if parents aren't forced take responsibility the situation will get progressively worse.
Let's see heavy fines plus naming and shaming of young criminals (and their parents) guilty of crimes against their communities.

31

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News Room 23/08/2007 07:20:56

1/ That cost pales into insignificance against the cost of the crime in police time, hospital treatment, days lost from work, early retirement caused through stress & injury, and the cost of vandalism, which must be easily into the £ billions.

Many businesses have been forced to close, or indeed will not expand or develop into new territory.

The childrens hearing panel ystem requires a full overhaul, and at the risk of spending more money.... I would like to see a parents hearing panel, whereby accountability is decided, and the parents are brought to book, and if they are found to be wanting, they can stump up the cash, or forfeit benefits.

Yours etc

Angus Whitton

32

paulr,

23/08/2007 07:23:19

"providing more services for young offenders" hear hear lets all chip in and help after all the poor offender really needs more of everything, never mind the victims.......

33

Pete39,

Tassy 23/08/2007 07:30:17

Ah well, Google Isle of Man Birching and read some news. Those guys could cope with 500,000 visitors a year and very little crime. A popular holiday destination for the Glasgow hard men. Two folk, evidently a councillor and another person changed it all, I do not know if they are still alive, but would be interested if they still held the same attitudes. What the hell, I am approaching seventy and still have the attitude that the government is not fit to look after your kids.

34

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 23/08/2007 07:47:32

Are the hang 'em and flog 'em lot so stupid that they don't realise that their victorian approach to punishing the poor failed miserably and only made matters worse? Just like how extreme punishment in the US has caused more crime.

The problem is that this these millions were spent on increasing punishment. That's why they failed.

Sound social policies are what reduces crime not some reactionary penal reform. Ah, the good ol' Labour party, they can rely on the idiots to blame the poor rather than criticise their legislation. Just like the Tories.

35

Jay Kay,

Burntisland 23/08/2007 07:51:00

I totally agree with most of the comments here. For far to long the softie liberalist doogooders have totally ruined our once proud system. In glenrothes a couple of months back a gang of 14 and 15 year olds got tanked up on a friday night took knives out into the streets of glenrothes looking for trouble and some poor innocent guy lost his life and his children lost their father.

What happened to these kids I think they got 14 years and will probably be out in 5.

Totally wrong these kids and their parents need to be sorted out now, not a year from now we need to give the police all the power in the world to arrest and punish these people right away.

As for the ASBO god give me strenght the kids around the glenrother area use them like a badge of honour "oh I have 5" " Well I have 7" for crying out loud.

I always remember the story told to me by my father of a famous villan in Methil when he was growing up, this guy was the real McKoy, Hardened criminal, drinker, fighter, No one was safe from this guy oh but he was birched wasn't he, given ten lashes. Changed him overnight he became a law abiding citizen and is still alive to this day and you bl**dy well ask him if the Birch doesn't work, it does because he knew if he continued on his life career as a criminal he was going to get ten more.


Now you bleeding hear liberalists tell me it doesnt work, these kids deserve the punishment the openly carry knives and not you wee pen knive noooooo, these kids are carrying around things that would make crocodile dundee run for cover.

What is going on and wrong with our contry the answer is simple the bl**dy softies are in charge.

36

leith lover, poet and scholar,

peoples republic of leith 23/08/2007 07:55:09

The Scottish Executive wasting money? No - surely not?

The Scottish Parliament should never have been built and this devolved Government is costly nonsense!

I bet most of the complainers here voted yes yes - its YOUR fault no-one elses!

37

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 07:57:35

#35 Alex

And the liberal approach has worked how? You lot have been in the ascendancy since the 60s and where are we? We have children SHOOTING younger children in the head. Lawless , without respect or fear and completely without discipline. I hope you lot are proud of yourselves cause its YOUR fault that this has come to pass.

38

JimC,

23/08/2007 07:58:20

#4 Nothing to do with irregularities, it's to do with outcomes and targets, both were never met, therfore the money was wasted.

39

haggis 10,

23/08/2007 08:04:18

A Scottish Devils Is the the answer starting with all the bureaucrats involved then the criminals give them official board of trade rations let them eat wild haggis and for a change they could try some Puffins. St Kilda sounds like an ideal spot an OPEN PRISON on St Kilda That is. Plenty of old cottages to live in ?????? Then we would see how well they get on with their Socialist Principles!!

40

,

23/08/2007 08:06:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 899872, Article id was mapped to record!
41

Judge&Jury,

23/08/2007 08:08:47

It's quite simple really, kids cannot be punioshed effectivvely and therefore have no fear around the consequences of their actions.

There, ther we Billy you have been naughty now don't do it again.

A couple of years later and we Billy now with a criminal record the length of his arm is being led away to the jail for having stabbed someone to death in an argument over a carry out.

The moral.

Come down hard on youth crime and make the kids so scared of the consequences, that they avoid criminal activity.

Lock the recidivists up, because some people are so stupid that they can't be taught.

Anyone got any stats on how many of the criminals in Scotland are in full time employment?

42

nabodican,

Skye 23/08/2007 08:11:39

Give them a damn good thrashing I say!
The basic problem is that this namby pamby, do gooder liberal state has removed all forms of physical punishment with the result that from an early age kids get away with it - you can't even give your own kid a clip around the ear when they misbehave and then at school the teachers have an impossible task.
There is no question that corpral punishment does work - it is the law of nature and no liberal do gooders can change that.

43

David Akers,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 08:12:12

Where we live in Edinburgh vandals burned a disused building on Sunday night, this building was being used as offices for the builders of a nursing home that has just been completed, last night once again these vandals have been at it again, and found tins of paint in this burned out building an have scattered the contents every where, no matter what is spent what is needed is real deterrents, forget all the do gooders bring back corporal punishment from school age upwards.

44

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/08/2007 08:13:11

Well it's not as if the £100 million actually left Scotland (well most of it anyway) so it's not as if it's actually cost "Scotland" £100 million. In fact, we made £100 million.

The point here is that the initiatives that it paid for failed. We must now take another approach....perhaps an approach we have already taken in the past but was dismissed as being un-PC or too brutal or unsophisticated in it's design.

45

Sam Mond,

Mars 23/08/2007 08:13:37

It's quite simple, punish the parents of minors. Hit them where it really hurts - actually review what would hurt most.

Once a child legally becomes an adult then punishment should fit the crime - no minimum sentences, life means life, 5 years means 5 years and no time off for good behaviour. Instead, parole is only considered at the end of the sentence IF you have a good behaviour record.

Bin the Human Rights legislation, or at least make it so that the innocent are protected rather than the guilty.

Offer alternatives to prison for minor offences - proper alternatives and not some under managed community service. If 50 hours are given as punishment then the time should be spent working - not chatting, smoking etc. and the work should fully benefit the victims. Better still, set them to work clearing all of the recyclable and reusable material from landfills.

46

leith lover, poet and scholar,

peoples republic of leith 23/08/2007 08:17:24

corporal punishment is not the answer - if the offender is not of legal majority and cannot be tried and convicted as an adult, then the parent is held responsible and should be punished. The issue here is half of these young offenders' parents dont give a damn about where their kids are and what they are up to - Hit them hard, where it hurts!

I also think that boot-camp style short detention centres could be the answer - they could be housed in several of the schools the cooncil are closing - or is that land earmarked for property development?

47

Xena - Warrior Princess,

23/08/2007 08:19:40

I agree with most of the comments, the youth of today are not scared of authority, and whose fault is that? It is the government that has introduced this no blame culture. I do not believe that punishing Parents who for the most part (although there are always the lot that dont give a damn) are trying their best in circumstances where the child can report them to childline. In Scotland at 16 you can leave home, get a job, marry, and still smoke (not for much longer though) and I believe that if they are this age is their responsibility for their actions.

48

ABC,

23/08/2007 08:28:06

If I were a 19 year old with a trail of offences behind me and now ended up in prison I would be extremely angry with the liberal lefties who told me I was deprived, put no checks and balances in my life when I broke the law trying to get the things that apparently everyone should have, put me in a toothless system (as my pals said while being arrested - don't worry, there's nothing 'they' can do) and once I make it to adulthood I end up in the slammer! How did that happen? Breaking the laws never got me into trouble before.

Yep prisons are bursting with people who never had to live within the laws until it's too late.

49

leith lover, poet and scholar,

peoples republic of leith 23/08/2007 08:28:45

hmmm interesting points Xena - I'd like to discuss tyem further with you, perhaps over a drink some time.

50

Xena - Warrior Princess,

23/08/2007 08:38:41

#50 I am sure it would be a lively discussion Lover.

51

Slippylizard,

Sunny rock today 23/08/2007 08:38:57

The fact is that the real money spent so far but the real cost to society of having to deal and put up with these scum. I saw a comment earlier where they sais they "stop sure of murder". The problem is they don't always stop short, they progress onto far worse. And we the normal citizens can do nothing because we have no rights. They have lawyers that are paid for by us, social workers that are paid for by us, sometimes drug habits that are paid by us and "human rights" that we have to pay for as well. Even the Scottish Executive was paying for them rather than spending money on the health service, spend it on a useless ned instead.

The big problem is that many parents do not take responsibility and their children therefore do not take responsibility. Everything is everyone elses fault. There are excuses after excuses and we just let them off all the time. When are we actually going to put these scum in prison and leave them there, give them a hard time and then a real reason to moan.

52

Slippylizard,

Sunny rock today 23/08/2007 08:39:46

Apologies for the typos previously.

53

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

23/08/2007 08:50:50

#29 Unfortuantely Nick - I think it is the touchy-feely crap that the report's authors want.

54

leith lover, poet and scholar,

peoples republic of leith 23/08/2007 08:51:03

Xena - you know and I know that the discussion would just be a prelude.........., especially if it got heated and we ended up giving each other a tongue lashing............

55

seillean a mhirdenibha,

USA 23/08/2007 08:51:45

If they want to be hard men, put them in the army, send them through a commando style boot camp, and put them on the front lines in Afghanistan. They'll meet some truly hard men there.

56

Xena - Warrior Princess,

23/08/2007 08:52:08

#55 I've got a whip!!

57

leith lover, poet and scholar,

peoples republic of leith 23/08/2007 08:55:03

what do u propose you do with it xena?

use it on the youth offenders?

Do you dress like Xena too?

58

Xena - Warrior Princess,

23/08/2007 08:55:36

#56 I agree I think they should find out what a hard man really is, and it isn't a shaven headed, tattooed caricature. I would put them in a Bad Lad's Army with no get out clause.

59

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/08/2007 08:56:10

Get a room!!!

60

Xena - Warrior Princess,

23/08/2007 08:58:12

#58 Settle petal - I wouldn't want to hurt you. If I had Xena's figure I might dress like her.

61

Xena - Warrior Princess,

23/08/2007 08:59:25

Och Dave it's the first laugh I have had this morning. It's not often you get humour on these boards.

62

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/08/2007 09:02:27

Ach ok. Sorry for being a killjoy. Carry on......

63

leith lover, poet and scholar,

peoples republic of leith 23/08/2007 09:06:01

#61 you know what the say Xena - a Hard man is good to find!

I'll take the risk! tell me more about your figure?

64

Lachie (The Hoolie) Mor,

Fort William 23/08/2007 09:07:10

JK Rowling is what we do with our neds..
Tell me where this £100 million went in this failed initiative of the last Executive ?

65

leith lover, poet and scholar,

peoples republic of leith 23/08/2007 09:10:42

while JK rowling might be an author in Edinburgh - Its a passtime in Glasgow

66

Nittenman,

23/08/2007 09:15:27

£100 million would have put and kept a lot of this pondlife in List D schools / Borstals had we still kept these things. The Childrens Reporter is an absolute joke, the amount of stuff they bin (including serious crime) is a disgrace , because it is "not in the public interest to prosecute". I think that we the public should have more say when it is in OUR interest to prosecute. The Reporter has run it's course , time for a change.

67

G,

dundy 23/08/2007 09:21:41

what's the SNP line on anti-social behaviour and youth crime?
Is it in an independent Scotland under the leadership of Big Brother (AS) our youth will no longer find it necessary to commit such crimes....and will spend their time cutting peats, learning the accordian and singing Scottish folk songs whilst roaming the glens...

68

Riley Hamish,

EDINBURGH 23/08/2007 09:21:59

Right Cathy............get yersel' on Newsnight Scotland and tell us why you've got some "very,very, very" good answers tae this question.
Let us ken whit nicht yer on.ah widnae miss it fur the world !!

69

Miss H,

23/08/2007 09:28:57

68

SNP line:

More community police

More early intervention

ASBOs pretty much a waste of time.

70

Sam Mond,

Mars 23/08/2007 09:32:50

The topic is so off that the conversation has lost its charm...

More about Zena's figure please!! ;o)

48: Zena, I think that the problem is that Social Services get their noses in too quickly. Parents are, in many cases, frightened to take their children to hospital with an injury in case the SS are called in. I know we got some looks when our daughter fell and got a black eye after hitting off a planter in the garden. As a result, Childline can be misused to manipulate a parent.

As parents, we need to rise above the threats and discipline our children accordingly (avoiding physical punishment as much as possible).

The other point is the number of parents who have children returned to them by the police only to launch into a tirade of abuse at the officer rather than their own child. What sort of example does it set?

71

FLUB,

Cowdenbeath 23/08/2007 09:32:56

#36 Jay Kay - the Police don't need any more power, any cop could tell you that. What they need is the inclination and that is being bred out of them as they employ more and more graduates on false pretences, who get promised the earth and after they don't make Chief Constable in 5 years are becoming disillusioned and just getting by doing as little as possible.

Add that to the Scottish Executive trying to increase the numbers of the Special Constabulary, and the interest in PCSOs (16 year old skateboarders, anyone?) to 'free up' the Police to deal with more serious crime. P*sh! The everyday cop doesn't get a sniff of serious crime - it's dealt with by detectives who undergo extra training.

Put all these social workers, counsellors and so on in a uniform, give them a beat, a notebook and let them lock the crooks up - that's more effective than anything else.

72

The Shark,

Glasgow 23/08/2007 09:33:48

The only way to stop youth crime is to remove the laws that stop Parents, Teachers and Police to enforce respect. Than you would not need to spend so much money of useless programs. This money could have gone towards Health and Schools.

Human rights and do gooders are kill our youth and each other. And for the EU Laws they need to be scrapped....

73

Miss H,

23/08/2007 09:37:44

67

You are not really thinking about this. It's a relatively small number of repeat offenders who cause the problem and it is not difficult to predict who they will be.

The majority of children who end up before the hearing system because of their behaviour are already known because they are at risk - bad parenting, neglect and so on.

So 'the system' as it were already knows which children are most likely to go on to become offenders.

It is not rocket science to say that early intervention is the key here. Of course it is not so easy to work out what form that early intervention should take. Do you actually go as far as removing children from their parents because of the parents behaviour? A lot of people would scream 'nanny state' at that one.

So it is difficult but the point at which the state should intervene, in whatever way, is early enough in those children's lives to make a difference. By the time they are 14 or 15 it will in many cases be too late.

74

,

23/08/2007 09:37:58
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75

Talorthane,

23/08/2007 09:38:06

"Ms Jamieson declined to comment on the report, arguing it was the job of politicians to look forward rather than back."

This is from Cathy Jamieson, the current acting leader of Labour's MSPs in Holyrood.

If this was not typical of Labour's pattern of avoiding responsibility it would be truly shocking.

76

Scallywag,

23/08/2007 09:40:11

This is a hard one. One side of me says thump the living daylights out of the little neds and then lock them up. The other half tells me that this appraoch doesnt' seem to produce any more results than a namby pamby one.

While not wishing to disrespect good honest citizens, odds on that most of the problems come from certain areas and certain individuals or family groupings within those areas. Not only are we spending tax money on these failing schemes we are also helping finance the type of lifestyle that provides no hope and ends up with people having no respect.

It is not just the governement agencies that need to address this issue but society in general along with the business community who also have a part ot play in what type of society we live in and what opportunites are availabel for everyone.

77

Xena - Warrior Princess,

23/08/2007 09:44:31

#71 I completely agree with the comment about the parents giving the police abuse instead of their child! Who are these parents? Is it our generation? Is it my parents fault? My parents worked all their lives and would have been black affronted if a policeman had come to the door for one of us. We could all name these people but the only ones who would care are the ones who are really trying to discipline their children when common sense has taken a back seat for too long.

78

,

23/08/2007 09:47:19
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79

Miss H,

23/08/2007 09:49:15

16

You are spot on about the lack of fear.

I would fear the cat o nine tails but the kind of person who goes about tooled up and ready for a fight - no.

They could die any Friday night.

They don't actually care enough about their lives to fear losing them.

80

morris,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 10:00:51

9

You are absolutely correct. She was and still is a complete and total liability.I said along time ago the biggest crime perpetrated on Scottish soil was her beig made a minister. She was possibly a good social worker She sould still be!

77
I can sympathise with your confusion over whether the use of corporal punsihment works or not.It depends upon the individual child/youth but then what they get up to varies from individual to individual. Child psychologists say that the "belt" does not work. I say it does work but in a different way and to a different degree depending upon which child we are talking about.
The belt was only used on those who would misbehave! the rest were never given the belt because they were deterred by its existence and once seen was enough.If thats not working then I dont know what is. Of course the unruly ones who come back for more are a problem,but we dont stop discipline because the really stupid kids cannot learn anything at all including how to behave.,largely because their parents were exactly the same!

If its the same kids who are being belted again and again yes its true it has done nothing for them,but the majority have learned a lesson and behave !THAT PROVES IT WORKS AND THE so called child psychologists are no more qualified to understand the workings of a childs mind than any of us I suspect.

81

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 23/08/2007 10:14:54

One of the major issues is that it is the same youngsters who are offending over and over again - with the Children's Panel's taking a softly softly approach. They know that they can offend time and again because nothing will happen to them.

I am not sure what we do instead but quite clearly the present system does not work.

82

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 10:19:52

#83 AM2

Re-arranging deckchairs on the Titanic. The SNP are as part of the liberal establishment as Labour and the SLD. They're all wind and p**h. I would bet my mortgage on there being no change at the end of their time in power.

83

JG,

Fife 23/08/2007 10:28:50

The people who are responsible for producing out of control children are their parents. Every time the little brats misbehave at school (or wherever) get the parents up. Inconvenience them. If they are at work, too bad - force them to take responsibility for their offspring. Who do you think is to blame for kids being out till all hours? The kids themselves? - if you'd got away with behaving how you liked when you were young, you'd have done exactly the same thing. Or the couldn't-care-less-parents? And taking them all into care isn't the answer. There are barely enough foster carers for children who REALLY need them.

84

Alex.,

23/08/2007 10:29:35

If the parent can't control their children then we should withdraw all benefits to that family including child allowance, child credit and tax credits until they have been crime free for two months. Then watch the parents control their children. It will happen within a week. You could also withdraw the benefits for a child that fails to attend and behave in school.

85

Flabskin,

23/08/2007 10:33:43

#35 Cretin

"Are the hang 'em and flog 'em lot so stupid that they don't realise that their victorian approach to punishing the poor failed miserably and only made matters worse? ...The problem is that this these millions were spent on increasing punishment. That's why they failed."

One of the specific uses to which the £100 million were put was to recruit an extra 500 Social Workers.

It's common knowledge that 'social worker' = 'third buttock'.

Not quite sure how this equates to extra punishment, since it seems that the only function social workers perform in the justice system is to phone up victims (or their surviving relatives) as per Mrs Lawrence, and bully them for saying their husuband's murderer has never expressed remorse.

Even if she didn't.

86

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 23/08/2007 10:35:13

slaughter absolutely everyone at birth! it's the only language they understand! it's good old-fashioned common sense, it's what we did back in my day and no-one ever did anything wrong ever.

87

The Cove,

Stornoway 23/08/2007 10:40:27

How do people think the childrens panel fits in?

88

LostinFrance,

France? 23/08/2007 10:44:58

I wonder how many PYO's there actually are in Scotland. These festering sores surely cause most of the fear and distress to say nothing of the cost within the communities of Scotland.

Is there 500 or 1000? Everybody knows who they are. Lets face it, they're not the brightest. Suppose for the sake of argument there were 500 - hardcore PYO's across Scotland. That's £200,000 each out of the additional budget.

So why not give that budget to the SW Depts across Scotland to divide up equally amongst the PYO's and get them to promise to behave themselves? The incentive could be that this amount will be increased the following year!!

Reward - that's the strategy, not punishment. Give them foreign holidays, designer clothes, access to the drugs of choice etc.....

on the other hand, think how many boot camps could be built for that money.....

89

,

23/08/2007 10:47:58
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90

Ayegudyin,

23/08/2007 11:05:55

I got a good smack when I did anything wrong as a child. Even after certain laws had been passed it didnt stop my dad, because he knew the good it would do. I have thanked him for this to his face, because I might not have had the dicipline in my life which I so badly needed. the flip side to this is that some kids might get beaten so badly by over zealous parents, to the point of bullying, they react by taking it out on their local community.
I think the main point that seems to have been recognised by a lot of the earlier posts is that its the parents DUTY to look after their children. A lot of the kids collecting these ASBO's like trophies are the spawn of generations of light handed aproach. their parents were the trouble makers 15-20 years ago, and its the parents who are still in need of dicipline.
I think the best idea iv heard is to send them off to some godforsaken island somewhere, and not some paradise like Australia either. Get 1000 of the worst and make em live together, rely on each other for survival and work together as a community. Treat them as an example and dont let them off until said island is creating a stable economy and paying back some of this money thats been wasted on the problems they have caused. Maybe send Ms Jamieson out there too...

91

commonsense,

Where I can get an overview 23/08/2007 11:07:26

You reap what you sow.

We all know the majority of offenders come from bad backgrounds. Your choice,therefore is to pursue them throughout their lives dishing out punishments, (Which is what we presently do) or filter All kids as early as possible at Nursery/School with the aid of psycholigists etc to try to counteract the bigotry/racism/antisocial behaviour that the are exposed to at home.

92

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/08/2007 11:07:26

#89 Keir Hardie

Mock away. But I don't see any of the softly-softly, child-centred brigade coming up with an alternative that actually restores peace and safety to the streets and instills some discipline in the lawless minority.