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Do we do enough to honour our fallen heroes?



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Published Date: 12 November 2007
ON THE stroke of 11, on the 11th day of the 11th month, the courtyard of the Erskine veterans' home fell silent as the old men in blue blazers, glinting with medals, sat in their wheelchairs and in the company of ghosts.
For each man, the two-minute silence was a solemn occasion to remember comrades who had fallen in the battlefields of France and Germany, or the streets of Belfast.

But for the man in the jeans and a camouflage jacket who leaned heavily on a crutch, the memories were more recent.

At 23, John Stonham is the youngest resident in Scotland's home for ex-servicemen and women. The oldest is 100. The honour of laying a wreath on behalf of the 75,000 veterans cared for by the centre over the past 90 years fell to the former private in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, who couldn't help but weep as he waited.

"This is a very emotional day for me," he explained. "One of our battalion was killed in Iraq and I always think of him and his family at this time."

As the Last Post echoed out over Remembrance Day services in Glasgow, Edinburgh and London, as well as amid the dust of Basra and in Helmand Province in Afghanistan, it was clear that there is growing concern among veterans of all conflicts that the "blood contract" between the state and those who bleed and die in defence of it has become increasingly diluted.

Maurice Smillie, 82, formerly of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, who was a prisoner of war during the Second World War, said: "I think it is harder for soldiers today, the public don't understand what they are doing. They don't have a Churchill to lead and help them."

Mr Stonham was uncomfortable discussing his experiences on a day dedicated to remembering the dead, but he has previously spoken of feeling "chewed up and spat out". Mowed down by an oil tanker driven by insurgents in Basra in February, 2004, his pelvis was broken in six places, his thigh bone snapped in two and his spleen and bladder were ruptured. He has had 28 operations, lives on £154 a week and has yet to receive any compensation from the Ministry of Defence.

When he was released from hospital, he was given a flat in a council estate in Stranraer plagued by heroin addicts, who repeatedly attempted to steal his painkillers. He was eventually found a place at Erskine after his flat was set ablaze.

At Erskine, near Glasgow, he has found a little peace and a new friend in John Smeaton, the baggage handler who became the hero of the terrorist attack on Glasgow Airport, and who also laid a wreath at yesterday's ceremony. Mr Stonham said: "Everyone here at Erskine has been through similar experiences and that is our common bond."

In Edinburgh, hundreds gathered in the city centre as veterans led a parade. Many of those attending felt too little was being done to honour former and current soldiers. Major Bob Ritchie, 72, of Livingston, served in the Black Watch from 1951-91 and said: "These parades are very important at this time, especially with the theatres in Afghanistan and Iraq. I don't think the country honours us properly. It used to, but it fell away. It is important to keep it going."

He was accompanied by Colour Sergeant Willie Dickson, 58, of Fife, who served with the regiment from 1972-94.

He said: "It's not like it used to be, probably because of the commitments of the army. There seems to be less professional military in the parade. But today is very important for the young army. We have soldiers who are 20 or 21 fighting in two theatres of war."

In Sri Lanka, Alex Salmond visited the graves of the Commonwealth war dead in Liveramentu Cemetery in Colombo. The First Minister, who was there to see through Glasgow's bid to host the 2014 Commonwealth Games, laid a wreath made by the Lady Haig poppy factory in Edinburgh. He said: "The Commonwealth nations have come together as one family this week and it is important that we pay our respects on Remembrance Sunday to those who made the ultimate sacrifice in war. They helped to secure the freedoms that we enjoy today, and we must never forget them."

In London the Queen and other senior royals laid wreaths at the Cenotaph in Whitehall. Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, Tory leader David Cameron, acting Liberal Democrat leader Vince Cable and more than 40 High Commissioners also lefttributes to the war dead at the Cenotaph. Prince William - an officer in the Blues and Royals - laid a wreath for the first time.

Services took place around the world, including among soldiers involved in operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, 100 Royal Marines from 40 Commando held a service in front of a simple wooden cross in Helmand province.

Back at Erskine, the former soldiers enjoyed a tot of whisky in white plastic cups while Mr Stonham limped back to his flat - a small feat for most of us, but a triumph for a man doctors feared would never walk. It was left to Colonel Martin Gibson, the home's chief executive, to contemplate the public's attitude to the armed forces. He said: "It's not enough to think of them for two minutes, one day a year. We owe them so much more."

The full article contains 918 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 November 2007 11:36 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: World War One , World War II
 
1

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 12/11/2007 01:39:14

People killing each other, is this something we want to remember?

2

Scullion,

Canada 12/11/2007 01:55:04

#3 It's not the killing we remember, it's the men and women who answered the call that now allows us to moan about everything and everyone on sites such as this.
As the Yanks say, freedom isn't free and these men and women paid the price for us.
Yes, let's remember.

3

bill inch,

12/11/2007 03:16:31

The obsenity of the the queen,who's fortune is directly from the death of subjects. Standing there in black is an affront to humanity

4

Navvy,

12/11/2007 05:09:19

#4 Scullion. You are correct. we forget at our peril.

We are not a militaristic society, rightly, we seldom see troops in uniform. Regretably our government has no one with military service and this shows.

#5. You are a sorry soul. Are you a republican? On balance the western monarchies have better societies then the republics

5

James Watson,

Lanarkshire 12/11/2007 05:15:28

Surely the best way of honouring the war dead is not to have any more? & isn't it a wee bit strange, to each be giving wir wee bit money to the Earl Haig Fund etc. whilst wir tax money pays for the obliteration of Iraqi families & one-way tickets to participate in the latter for our youngsters? It would be no bad thing if the respect accorded to the past war dead were extended to those living who are in danger of joining them.

6

,

12/11/2007 07:15:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1135434, Article id was mapped to record!
7

whatsyourname,

12/11/2007 07:24:33

how come the war ended on the 11th day,of the 11 month , at the 11 hour, then we had a 911, intresting look up 11,http://www.crystalinks.com/11.11.html pretty intresting.

8

Discretionpvs,

Next the moose guarding the cenotaph, Canada 12/11/2007 07:41:31

I don't think any of us who served wanted to go to war. I know for me it was strictly a job when I needed one (1950). So I got sent to Korea a year and a half later, a place no one in Canada had ever heard of. I was lucky, I survived in one piece, but I visited the National Korean War Memorial on 2 Nov. and found several names of those I knew. Yes, war is an obscenity and a blight on mankind, but man has the ability to choose whuch way he'll go, and if it what the way of oppression, then someone has to stop that nonsense. Unfortunately someone dies in every war, and taking a few minutes annually is not the best way to remember them, but it is the accepted way in "civilized" nations.
#3 You are so far off course it's pathetic. And #5, you are just as pathetic. The Queen did not ask for the job, but she swore to take it til the end of her life, and so far has kept her word, and also remembers those who died so that, among other thing, she may still be queen. More power to her, and may the shades of the fallen haunt you both perpetually .

9

jdships,

12/11/2007 08:00:22

5. bill inch

The obsenity of the the queen,who's fortune is directly from the death of subjects. Standing there in black is an affront to humanity

Oh dear !
At least she turned up to show her respect .
More than Alex Salmond could find time to do in his native country

10

TREV,

Poland 12/11/2007 08:06:11

We should not forget BUT I think there is a problem for many of the public that the emphasis of Remembrance Day has for so long been on the World Wars.

Many people really don't know that it also recognises the other conflicts and that the Poppy Appeal helps young lads from today's conflicts too.

A few years ago when I was at Uni a student who was a member of the University RN force actually asked me on the day of her first memorial parade, "Why do we have these poppies?"

11

inter alia,

clapham omnibus 12/11/2007 08:09:49

Ignoring the ritualistic claptrap whenever Brenda Windsor is mentioned, let's keep on remembering the dead - and - keep up the pressure on the politicians to ensure those who serve as our armed forces have resources adequate for their needs [maybe ask politicians to forego their allowances etc for a decade or so ?]. "Don't the wars come easy, don't the peace come hard".

12

Friend-at-large,

Remembering the Gallant, the Brave, the Dutiful. 12/11/2007 08:18:32

Thank you to all who have served their countries in any branch of the armed services.

You have deserved so much more appreciation than you have received.

Some of you are in chronic pain from your injuries and experiences. Not enough is being done for you.

Politicians, demonstrate you have the ability to follow through on veterans' care and compensation.

13

Ichabod,

12/11/2007 08:20:16

How sad for folk to make personal points at this time.

Do we do enough for ex servicemen? No. Far too many fail to return to civilian life,too many sleep on the streets, and while for many it clearly is their own fault, there is not enough help for those who need it.
Some young men come across sights they are not prepared for and cannot cope with. Once they have left the service more professional help should be offered.

However, disabled servicemen attacked by junkies? Those folk should be conscripted! better than jail!

14

Thistledhu,

fife 12/11/2007 08:44:54

the very fact we are haveing this debate shows we do not do enough to remember and look after our serving and ex serving forces personel.

when you visit places like the US where production of a service id card gets you discounts and australia where acts of rememberance are carried out every night in there ex servicemens clubs

and of course the obscene fact that MP S LIKE JIM DEVINE claim 3 times more in a year in expenses than badley wounded servicemen can hope for to help live out there lives.

15

Boy Wonder,

12/11/2007 08:47:26

#3. Charles, for all my anti-war, anti-military rhetoric ... and I know I do go on about it ... even I stood and observed the 2 minute silence yesterday. It is a very worthy way of respecting those who sacrificed their lives in all wars, regardless of which side. I'll never respect the governments that ordered these men and women and yes, even children, to fight against people who should never have been an enemy. But I will respect the menory of the ordinary soldiers, who gave their lives that we might have ours!

16

Loki, Angel of Death,

The Dark Side 12/11/2007 08:49:57

We don't do enough for our ex servicemen and women, not by a long chalk.

I agree with #4, if it wasn't for these fallen heroes we wouldn't have the freedom to make sarky comments to each other.

I agree with #5 as well. All the soldiers who fought and died for the British Empire in WWI were told they were fighting for democracy, strange when none of them got the vote till the war was over. It was the only way the government could stave off revolution.

What more can we do to help our heroes old and new? More cash is a definite, constant reminders in schools so that the kids who 'Tagged' the war memorial in Hull might think twice before doing it again (though in today's current climate of 'you can't punish kids anymore' I can't see them caring at all).

I'd like to see our monarch, politicians and everyone else who put a wreath at the Cenotaph, be standing outside along with the veterans rather than wait an hour indoors in the warmth before coming outside to the ceremony. I thought that was a bit of a kick in the teeth to the veterans but I'd be a fool not to believe that there are those who enjoy being able to say 'Rank has it's privileges'

Stay alive people, it's the only way to live

Loki

17

livilion,

livingston 12/11/2007 08:51:47

The UK has spent £30bn this year on 'defence', sending our young men and women into harm's way.

At the first sign of trouble anywhere on the globe HM British Government is always at the head of the queue to get involved, protecting 'British interests'.

When those young men and women we send to defend our 'interests' have their health, their bodies and their lives damaged and ruined as a result of this, their country 'washes it's hands' of them.

It is this country's dark disgrace that even now our invalided service personnel depend on hand outs from charity for their welfare and to try to preserve some of their remaining dignity.

Britannia, a home fit for heroes?
Because they're worth it.

18

mrsbruce,

12/11/2007 09:04:55

The reason WW1 ended on the 11hour of the 11th day of the 11th month, is nothing to do with predictions, spooky stuff, or conspiracies.

The man in charge of the Armistice just thought it souded good.

The war could have ended (I think, if the memory serves me) on the 8th. 0f November.

Anyway, I have heard the arguement that the war could have been over in 1917, but the Americans coming in extended it by over a year.

But we won instead of negotiating a surender/cease fire, if that means anything.

19

livilion,

livingston 12/11/2007 09:13:11

20. mrsbruce
Yes you are correct the Americans did extend the duration of WWI.

It could have been over by 1917 if the the Germans had won or if the USA had arrived a year or two earlier.

C'est la guerre.

All totally irelevant to today's situation. These days our American partners make a point of arriving early for any force projection opportunity.

20

Border Souter,

Selkirk 12/11/2007 09:17:06

My dear friend Eric, this is Willie McBride,
Today I speak to you across the divide
Of years and of distance, of life and of death,
Please let me speak freely with my silent breath.
You might think me crazy, you might think me daft,
I could have stayed back in Erin, where there wasn't a draft,
But my parents they raised me to tell right from wrong,
So today I shall answer what you asked in your song.

CHORUS:
Yes, they beat the drum slowly, they played the pipes lowly,
And the rifles fired o'er me as they lowered me down,
The band played "The Last Post" in chorus,
And the pipes played "The Flowers of the Forest."
Ask the people of Belgium or Alsace-Lorraine,
If my life was wasted, if I died in vain.
I think they will tell you when all's said and done,
They welcomed this boy with his tin hat and gun.
And call it ironic that I was cut down,
While in Dublin my kinfolk were fighting the Crown.
But in Dublin or Flanders the cause was the same:
To resist the oppressor, whatever his name.

CHORUS
It wasn't for King or for England I died,
It wasn't for glory or the Empire's pride.
The reason I went was both simple and clear:
To stand up for freedom did I volunteer.
It's easy for you to look back and sigh,
And pity the youth of those days long gone by,
For us who were there, we knew why we died,
And I'd do it again, says Willie McBride.

CHORUS

21

,

12/11/2007 09:49:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1135734, Article id was mapped to record!
22

ebbi,

spain 12/11/2007 09:50:44

of course we do not honour our heros.but instead we give peerages to corrupt individuals by coeeupt politicians like tony bliar after taking their money.

23

snowmaid,

Glasgow 12/11/2007 09:52:03

Isn't it time we not only remembered the "glorious dead" but also remember why we have to have this pagent each year. Look at the history books and learn not to do it over and over again. This isn't about money, the few coins we drop into a tin, or the many millions that get spent on a war. It's about families, mourning and remembering every year how one war or another affected them. Why can't we look at the history of war, stop defending everyone elses liberty at the cost of our young men. Let them defend and die for Queen and country if they must, but not for benefit of some foreign power or at the behest or our so called allies.

24

Arthur Borges,

Zhengzhou 12/11/2007 09:59:43

Gee! All I have to do to become a "hero" is to "fall"?

25

carrottop,

Dumfries 12/11/2007 10:06:56

If we had lost our most recent wars none of you would be making these posts, they will be remembered as long as there is someone alive to remember them then they will all slip in history.

26

whatsyourname,

12/11/2007 10:12:29

# 20 Thanks but I feel your wrong studie it a wee bitti more.

27

Deighan,

12/11/2007 10:19:29

We didn't do enough to protect our heroes then in the field and on return and we haven't learned and still don't do enough today.
Whether it was the Great War which saw us fighting for God and our Germanic Royal Family against God and Queen Victoria's favourite Grandsons Germanic army or Iraq which has pitched God versus Allah it made no sense then and makes no sense today either.
We didn't learn then and we still aren't learning today and our returning heroes need all the help we can give.

28

Montford's Jaicket,

Hanging around 12/11/2007 10:26:08

Young people do not know why we have Remembrance Day. My children do not learn at school why we wear poppies. I asked one if she would wear a poppy yesterday and she said "It's in the past - get over it". Sadly that attitude has come from friends and school; we are blase about those who fought and died for a cause which we all now benefit from. Some of my ancestors fought and died in both World Wars but I hope that I will NOT be able to say that of my descendants. We are not celebrating war; we are remembering those who fought for our liberty to say what we want and go where we please in relative peace and safety. There is much wrong with society which, I feel, would be improved by us (the parents) teaching the next generation WHY we remember not just 1914-18 but all casualties of all sides in all conflicts.
"If we fail to learn from history then we are doomed to repeat it." Worse still, our children may be doomed to repeat it if they do not understand it.

29

shivago8,

livingston 12/11/2007 10:33:11

Britain does not deserve an armed force by the way that they are now treated.
If we did not have a professional army in 1939-45 we would all be speaking German now.
What happened to the spirit of our people that we had during the war years.
What happened to the spirit when Vera Lynn sang all those wonderful war songs,we,ll meet again,dont where ,dont when,but I know we,ll meet again some sunny day.
We are now a sick nation who has lost all it,s greatness,and I reckon the word GREAT should be taken out of our title.
I am greatly saddened by the attitude of a lot of our nation,makes me want to weep,it might take another world war to get back our spirit with young men being called up to fight for the country.

30

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 12/11/2007 10:35:22

Can we ever do enough to honour them?

Probably not, but as long as we remember.

Sad to see the usual vitriolic lot using this as an excuse to attack Queen and country.

31

Sinnerman,

Another Planet 12/11/2007 10:56:57

I joined the army straight from school. To serve my country? No, just could not think of anything else to do; seemed like a good career. But with the passing years the cynicism set in. Slowly watching the degradation of our equipment. Slowly watching the decline in our numbers, the cutbacks in training, and the total lack of commitment from successive governments, both Tory and Labour. And slowly watching the lowering of standards for new recruits.

What I find offensive is the hipocrisy of the politicians at the Cenotaph who pay lip service to the dead and wounded, but will not provide adequate funding for the armed forces.

Yes. There should not be wars, but there are. And the British armed forces are only "at the head of the queue" (#19) by reputation. The average British soldier has an innate sense of justice which he brings to conflicts around the world. If only our politicians had it.

32

Joanna,

Cambs, England 12/11/2007 11:00:18

In a way I can sympathise with the young people of today who see the war dead as ancient history. Young people rarely think about death and most think they will live for ever, maybe that is why so many young people have been lost in the wars of this country.

I, despite being a member of the Royal Air Force and attending quite a few Remembrance Parades did not come to fully realise what it all meant until I was older. Then I started to realise and appreciate the sacrifices that had been made by the generations before me, including members of my own family.

Now I have learnt more about the wars, with a particular interest in the Great War and I know that the very least we can do for them all is to buy a poppy, support the work of the Service charities and remember them with respect and gratitude on Remembrance Sunday.

"Let those who come after see to it, that his name be not forgotten"

Border Souter @ 22

Thank you for that poem/song, I have not heard it before - how very apt, true and heartfelt the words are.

33

loose cannon,

N.LaNARKSHIRE 12/11/2007 11:16:18

The people remember the fallen. Politicians don't. As a child in Belfast in the twenties and thirties I saw men from the trenches -including the Somme, where Ulster suffered unbearable losses - who had been promised they'd return to a 'land fit for heroes to live in' standing on street corners selling halfpenny boxes of matches.
It is to the eternal shame of all governments before and since that ex-servicemen and women in need have to rely on the public for help. The magnificent work of the CHARITY Erskine Home owes a lot to the annual tranformation of poppies into begging bowls. Just last week the media exposed the shameful sub-standard conditions of serving men's family accomodation.
As for politicians. Which of Blair's Armed Forces Ministers had a history of standing on public house table tops singing Irish rebel songs as the IRA blew hell out of Britain?

34

Mystpurple,

Lancashire 12/11/2007 11:16:21

I was brought up by my grandparents and my grandfather went to war like many others. He came home wounded and my gran said he was never the same man again when he came home. But if he was alive today and fit he would serve his country again and so would I. I remember on Remembrance Sunday like thousands of others but I remember him everyday and what he and others like him did for us, may we never forget them. Those that say we shouldn't remember would probably not fight for their country if they had to..as someone once said.."I may not agree with what you have to say but I will defend your right to say it".

35

Tricky Dicky,

Australia. 12/11/2007 11:37:28

It is about time we did something about politicians and their callous attitude towards our maimed and sick servicemen and women the world over.
An instance in Australia comes to mind.
The present government was secretly planning to cut assistance to Viet. Vets. to the tune of $500 mill.
A public servant blew the whistle on them and made it public. He lost his job and now they want him prosecuted. The two newspaper reporters who published the article were taken to court because they refused to disclose their source of info.

36

livilion,

livingston 12/11/2007 12:42:05

As an earlier contributor put it, we drop a few pennies in the tin to remember our war dead, effectively to salve our conscience.

IMHO I think it is our country's blackest disgrace that: because for two minutes on a Sunday morning some stand silent in tribute to those who died for us, we habitually the rest of the year forget all the hundreds of thousands maimed and crippled who only lost their lives but didn't actually die.

Those are the ones kept out of the limelight during the victory parades, the Gulf War Syndrome sufferers, the Atom test 'volunteers', shell shock victims the Post Traumatic Stress sufferers, the War blind etc, etc, etc.
All either forgotten, denied, shoved into a corner away from public gaze, forced to get by on charity.

The same guys who, because of overstretch on resources, have too often been forced to fight without proper logistical support, equipment or resources but never question their orders.
eg Ordered to fly RAF Nimrod jets known to be leaking fuel inside the aircraft and flying into a battlezone, knowing that if it is hit it will explode, you have no chance of survival and that aircraft & crew have already been lost this way.

Medals should be awarded just for taking on such missions.

The government is keen to use the phrase 'the polluter pays', well I'd like to see this extended to 'you got them maimed, now look after them'.

Isn't this only fair, why should our military wounded have to depend on conscience money instead of properly funded care and treatment from the people responsible for putting them in harm's way?

37

Bill Offshore,

12/11/2007 13:13:51

It should also be remembered there were a great deal of merchant navy men lost their lives, keeping this country free. All you hear about is how the uniformed forces did. Without the unarmed merchant fleet bringing much needed stores and supplies, then the country would have starved.
There should be more thought given to them.

38

whatsyourname,

12/11/2007 13:16:43

http://www.matthewdelooze.co.uk/readarticle.php?article_i... here you go #20 a little bit more inf you were tellin me about when the war ended.

39

Craigrossie,

St Andrews 12/11/2007 13:36:42

The public have no idea of what today's servicemen and women are going through. The conditions of those overseas and the pressure of those left behind covering 2 jobs is immense. Not only that, but we are being led by a Prime Minister, who had to READ the words of the 2nd verse of our National Anthem during Saturday's service at the Royal Albert Hall! Even Cameron knew the 2nd verse and he is not in charge of our Forces .
Let's give a helping hand to those in uniform and those who support them. They are a small, but vitally important group of people.

40

Blackie,

Aberdonian abroad 12/11/2007 13:39:14

We must start educating our youth in schools about the wars and our veterans. As a retired army officer and teacher in America, I would wear my poppy prior to the American "Veterans Day". I would get questions about the poppy and I was glad to explain. What happened to Empire Day in schools? I realise that our Empire is gone, but the patriotism that day made you proud to be British. Canada had a wonderful Empire Day programme until the 1960's. The British Legion, Canadian Legion etc. can be a catalist for educating the ignorant public. I must say I'm proud to see our Queen at her age each year carrying out her duties. The Americans turn their Veterans Day into a second Memorial Day that they have in May. Trust them to screw things up. They also do a horrible job of it. All veterans should get proper housing and health care, especally those injured in service, they should not have a worry, governments owe it to them. As an US Army retiree I get the majority of my health care paid for, I get discounts in many areas. I also get space available flights where the US military goes. ie. Ramstein and Mildenhall. FREE. But I am proud of the British military that generations of my family have been a part of. Patriotism is alive and well in this family. For Queen and Country. Lest We Forget.

41

PJ,

Edinburgh 12/11/2007 13:41:54

#3

It is to honour those who fought and died for you to grow up, to be a complete moron!

42

albajoe,

Arizona 12/11/2007 14:01:58

Bless them all

43

Murdoch #2,

USA 12/11/2007 14:10:47

Few countries do enough to honor their citizens who are injured or who die in war. In the city where I live, wreaths are placed each year by statues of soldiers who represent the sacrifices made in WW I. Slightly more attention is given to the sacrifices made in WW II. I remember the Vietnam war; I teach a university course about modern war; and I have toured foreign battlefields, so I know from experience that war is the most insane activitiy of all the insane activities in which human beings engage. The best course of action is to WORK TO PREVENT WAR, as likeminded Americans and I are doing. Members of the EU nations should do everthing in their power to keep America from attacking Iran. Now that the Cold War is over, America is potentially the most dangerous nation in history. If it remains unchecked, it may succeed in starting World War III.

44

royal terrace 1980,

lincoln 12/11/2007 14:21:59

Lets all salute all the British- Forces who are still doing a great job.

45

Aoda,

Pennsylvania Wilds 12/11/2007 14:27:07

At one time in this country we would also take time to remember not only our fallen military but all military and especially the end of WWI. Nov. 11 at 11: A. M. we would pause in silence for one minute.
That inculded school, work and on the street. When I was in senior high school I also belonged to a drum and bugle corps. We would march in the parade in Pittsburgh. (it was an illlegal absence but they overlooked it). Here we are marching in the heart of downtown Pittsburgh and the streets were lined with spectators. At 11:00 A. M. the parade wold stop and there was complete silence for one minute.

Then we became enlighened and companies and the government figured that one minute cost too much and was stopped. If there is any official ceramony I don't know about it. If you ask a school child and probably a college student and mention it to them they would probably look at you like you came from another planet.

No 20 & 21, if the war could have ended in 1917 why didn't it? The more I read about WWI the more I think we should have never entered. France and G B were running out of cannon fodder and there was a vast resource in America. We came over and helped at a great cost to us and this is the thanks you give us? If the European kings and emporers and dictators weren't so bullheaded and wanting to show off and test their military strength there would not have been a war. How many were killed because of honor? Don't want to hear your rubbish.

46

Pinelands,

CAPE TOWN 12/11/2007 14:30:20

#32 NICK BYRNE

You are right they cannot wait to get on the board..

The Queen and Pprince Phillip are in their eightys but every day you will find them doing their duty.

No doubt if you did do anything for your country which is doubtful you would have well retired yourself at their age

Why these people cannot just remember the dead for one day without bringing their little spitful comments to bare

47

Pinelands,

CAPE TOWN 12/11/2007 14:31:41

#32 NICK BYRNE

You are right they cannot wait to get on the board..

The Queen and Prince Phillip are in their eightys but every day you will find them doing their duty.

No doubt if you did do anything for your country, which is doubtful you would have well retired yourself at their age

Why these people cannot just remember the dead for one day without bringing their little spitful comments to bare

48

Media 1,

cape town 12/11/2007 14:41:07

Remebrance is a wonderful thing. But it is also a reminder of how sad, deluded and shallow we are as a species.

We will continue year after year to remember the fallen, we will hear how war must end and how we must learn from past mistakes, yet every year as the queen lays her reef, another 5000 have fallen, and the same old speeches regurgitated.

In that sense, it is a farce. But for the fallen it is a gesture of goodwill by the average man in the street. As far as governments are concerned, its nothing more than PR

49

Gayle,

Toronto via Cape Breton via Scotland 12/11/2007 14:53:16

# 37 My mom served in the Air Force during the war and she too has never been the same. She is always heartbroken for the men who never came home and for those who did who like her live with the memory of that time.

The Veteran's deserve the respect of all of us who have the freedom to go about with out a care in the world. I know lots who don't observe this day and I wonder why, I guess it's just that they are too young or that this important history isn't taught in schools.

Thankfully I still hae my mom to tell me what life was like and how people really banded together.

Regards to your family...

50

Isabel,

12/11/2007 15:02:13

We should honour our war dead and wounded by trying to make sure there are no more wars. I am sure that is what those who fought and died for us would have wished. I always observe the silence and give thanks for each day I live. The brave men and women who fought to keep my country free should always be remembered.

People like Mr Stonham get a rotten deal and are entitled to better treatment than he has received. How dare the Housing Department think that the flat given to Mr Stonham was good enough for anybody, least of all a man who who was so badly wounded fighting for us. It is good that he was able to get away from that dreadful estate.

51

Gayle,

Toronto via Cape Breton via Scotland 12/11/2007 15:22:28

Shame on the government who would put Mr. Stonham into such a deplorable living condition. I wonder where these braniac's live?

52

thomas,

midlothian 12/11/2007 15:42:31

it is always interesting to read the quotes of the people in offices of power, regarding the efforts of the brave men and women, who served this country in it's hour of need.the sacrifices made, have in no way been repaid to these souls ,who gave of their best when it was needed the most. the politicians will argue ;we cannot afford it . the truth is we can and must afford it. these politicians are public servants, who seem to forget this fact. our forbears also served the public , some gave their lives willingly, so that the people left behind, would be free from oppression and the politics of greed!
lest we forget,seems like we have .

53

Paul S.,

Mauricetown, NJ, USA 12/11/2007 16:04:20

At least where I was growing up in New Jersey, we paused for a minute of silence not at the stroke of eleven, but at eleven minutes past the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, which is when the armastice actually went into effect.

If, instead of creating a vengeful treaty at Versailles, there had been something more supportive of the defeated enemy, there would likely have been no second war in 1939.

Yesterday we had a concert of British music in our house featuring Roger Chase, former violist with the Nash Ensemble. It being November 11, before the Sonata for viola and piano by Bliss, we read part of "Strange Meetinge" by Wilfred Owen as a reminder of the ethos out of which Bliss composed his sonata and of those who had died on boths sides.

Owen concludes the poem woth the two dead enemies saying together, "Let us sleep now ..."

54

Gayle,

Toronto via Cape Breton via Scotland 12/11/2007 16:04:36

#59 Yes it's very telling about the people in offices of power. I noticed yesterday that the Mayor of Toronto whilst making his speech acknowledged a lot of organizations that I didn't quite know what there part in the service was.

I doubt very much that the Toronto Board of Education has much to do with Rememberance Day, the kids here don't even study Canadian history. I was scratching my head about that one.

Your right we can absolutely afford to look after the veteran's as much as the politician's can afford to increase their salaries ten fold and do on an annual basis. I don't recall any public servants willing to give up their lives or say hey I make enough money.

55

Vancouver,

Leith 12/11/2007 16:58:17

We should respect them like the USA ans Canada and have a National holiday where the service is held on the date instead of the nearest Sunday to Nov. 11th, this year it so happens it was on the date but as of next year it should be on the actual day and time.

56

Dunnie,

Canada 12/11/2007 17:37:49

#5 - Bill - you are a very twisted, bitter person.

On such a day, you can't even bring yourself to forget or drop your petty vendettas. For shame.

Be gone.

52 - Aoda - Should have the USA entered WWI earlier? Largely academic question. Despite the Lusitania and other events the Wilson administration chose not to get involved.

When it did, it was totally unprepared. The US Army was sent to France without any major ordnance, equipment, artillery and aircraft.

All were supplied by the other Allies.

WWII - completely different situation.

The US should have been in earlier and the war would have been over earlier - not much but earlier.

I guess Aoda, what gets up a lot of people's noses is the fact that Hollywood - and therefore the majority of US citizens - believe that the US won both wars single-handed.

Do we remember and respect the sacrifices of your nation? You bet and we always will. .

57

thomas,

midlothian 12/11/2007 17:41:35

sorry to burst your bubble, #62 but canada has a worse record than britain on this issue. first nations are being poisoned and living in unsalutory conditions. this is their reward for fighting alongside the people who stole their land. read what the U.N.O. said about canada.

58

Rami,

New Hampshire 12/11/2007 17:59:12

Once again this day is upon us; and once again
we Honor our Fallen Heroes; and once again we
are at War; and once again we will continue to
Honor our Fallen Heroes:-(

59

Gayle,

Toronto via Cape Breton via Scotland 12/11/2007 18:18:07

Canada's government couldn't give a hoot about the Veteran or the Native Canadians. Only when Rememberance day comes about, its convenient for them. As for the Natives, don't get ne started. They've been robbed blind of more than their land.

60

Shropshire visitor,

England 12/11/2007 18:35:45

Having for years witnessed a good turnout of the public to mark Remembrance Day whereI live I found the ceremony in Edinburgh disappointing considering how many Scots serve in the forces. Even the two minute silence was late and where were the civilian organisations for the young. Do you not have Scouts in Scotland?

61

Lynn,

Madison, Wisconsin, USA 12/11/2007 18:39:40

#22 - On behalf of my forebears from both sides of both WW1 and 2, Thank you. That is beautiful.

62

Dunnie,

Canada 12/11/2007 18:44:10

64 -Thomas - you appear to mixing issues.

Are you talking about our nation's treatment of veterans or aboriginal veterans, both? Or just our treatment of our First Nations peoples?

If the latter, I would agree but the resolution is not simple for it also politics within the First Nations themselves.


66 - Gayle - you are quite and fundamentally wrong when you say that our government doesn't give a hoot about our veterans or native Canadians.

I have worked for years on staff and as a volunteer.


I have seen massive progress. And by the way, compare our programs to any - any country - and I think you will find our programs are very good indeed.

Is there room for improvement? You bet.

But for you to say without substantiation that we don't give a hoot, is an insult to the many who work daily to ensure that our vets and their families get the support they deserve.

Our wounded and disabled from Afghanistan, for example, are being helped and administered not by Veterans Affairs Canada but the Dept of National Defence. Why? B because at the order of the Chief of Defence Staff they are still be considered serving soldiers and kept within the military family. They have 3 years to remain in the military and decide about their future.

This is terribly important. It offers support but more than that, it offers hope and the chance to share experiences so that others might benefit and gain that support and hope.

Yes, some slip between the cracks and each time that happens, don't think we do everyhting to right that wrong.

But some try to take advantage of the system. We had one case where a so-called veteran was trying to a compensation for an elbow injury suffered while playing rugby at the Royal Miliatry College.

So Gayle, please don't be so quick to judge and pontificate.

63

Retired Vet.,

Alaska 12/11/2007 19:02:03

as quoted by "Rudyard Kipling "

God and the Soldier, we adore,
In time of danger, and not before.
The danger passed and all things righted,
God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted.

64

Scottish then British,

Corstorphine 12/11/2007 19:09:17

Tony Blair sent the services to war, how about he donates the millions of pounds he is said to be getting for his book to all the men and women who need help.
WHY should they need help, this government sent them to war they should be getting the best expert help that can be given.
It`s nothing new my father fought in the trenches during the 1st world war, he was lucky and came out alive and was only wounded twice.
He was given medals, they were posted to him and no thanks or help was given.


Gordon Brown said Britain is a rich country then WHY do the services men and women have to rely on charities.
Brown should put the money where his big fat mouth is.
Always plenty of money to build stadiums to play games in.

PRIORITIES WHAT PRIORITIES???????????????????

65

Ian Walker,

Montreal Blue 12/11/2007 19:11:31

To all of these people who whine about the monies spent on defence I only have this to say in these dangerous times.
Remember the lesson of Dunkirk!!
As Churchill said"never forget history for it shall surely repeat"
LEST WE FORGET!!

66

,

12/11/2007 19:14:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1137426, Article id was mapped to record!
67

Gayle,

Toronto via Cape Breton via Scotland 12/11/2007 19:41:24

#69 Yes perhaps.

I'm skeptical though about how wonderful our vets are treated. I don't work with Veteran's Affairs, I do belong to the local Legion Hall though but it doesn't make me an expert.

I think we are obligated to make their lives as comfortable and safe as possible.

68

Hoyle,

Kaitaia,Northland,New Zealand 12/11/2007 20:15:07

This small town attempted to set up a war memorial 10 days after the evacuation of Gallipoli -1916.I am an ex-serviceman visitor from Spain who was present on Sunday at the Rememberance Day ceremony,a photograph of which can be seen in The Northland Age newspaper of todays date.Last month there was a widely publicised commemmoration of the 90th Anniversary of Passchendaele and each April Anzac Day War Memorial services are held with many involved ;my grandaughter,this year, laying the wreath from her school.New Zealanders DO NOT FORGET

69

Dunnie,

Canada 12/11/2007 20:26:12

74 - Compare our Vets support programs to other western countries and, yes, our Vets are very well taken care of. However, we can still improve for in my book and that of others, we can never do enough.

But we do give a hoot. We do more than that. We feel we are paying down a debt that we will never be able to meet.

70

Dunnie,

Canada 12/11/2007 20:26:45

75 - Good on ya Kiwi!!

71

Gayle,

Toronto via Cape Breton via Scotland 12/11/2007 20:36:41

#76. I think that's it. A debt we can never repay.

72

Virgil,

Vancouver,BC 12/11/2007 21:07:03

I am fortunate to live in a country where veterans are honoured and respected and I must dispute the remarks of Gayle and his like for they know nought of what they speak. Earlier this year to commemorate the 90th Anniversary of the Battle of Vimy Ridge, where Canadian soldiers gained victory at a high cost of lives after attempts to take the ridge by British and French troops had failed, thousands of schoolchildren from Canada made the pilgrimage at the expense of the Canadian
government. These children like all before them are taught that it was at Vimy where Canada began its road to nationhood and to throw of the yokes of colony. I am a veteran of WW2, as I have stated before in this column, and I am an expat. I was on parade yesterday and still able to march along Marine Drive in West Vancouver under the Poppy banners on every lamp-post where thousands lined the street to applaud the vets as we marched to the cenotaph showing a display of medals from DSO's, DSM's, DFC's to campaign decorations from North African, Atlantic, Italy, Burma, Pacific and France and Germany. Standing before the cenotaph I remembered the day in 1942 I was plucked from the cold North Atlantic and never to forget one hundred and sixty-nine of my shipmates who perished with our ship after the second torpedo hit. I know that many of my comrades had their own dark memories with which to contend. We also respect and pray for our troops active today, but it does not mean that we support war for like me many of them deplore the acts of governments who seek patriotism from their citizens while they exploit cavalier actions in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Falklands and such other politically motivated gangfights.World War Two was fought for the preservation of Human Rights something that veterans believed in having witnessed the state of refugees flocking to Britains' shores in the five years preceeding that war. I am truly sorry if Britain has failed to educate its children and many of its ad

73

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 12/11/2007 21:26:00

It is time that all of this nonsense was stopped. If the dead soldiers could come back there would be no wars. If "qqqqqqqqqqueen and country" really care about the survivors of these needless wars,then they should give them a HUGE increase in their pensions,but they wont,will they? They would sooner march around the streets on a cold November day,beating their breasts and heaping glory on themselves. REMEMBER THEM NOW! IN THEIR PENSION BOOKS.

74

Dunnie,

Canada 12/11/2007 21:29:14

79 -

Virgil - Sir, you and I have exchanged some correspondence.

On some subjects we have agreed and on others, agreed to disagree.

I am so very glad to hear that you, as a veteran. feel your service and that of others is respected never mind the sacrifice of your shipmates.

But Sir, I must respectfully point out that the Falklands was not a cavalier action.

The human rights of the Falkland Islanders - British subjects - had been violated by one of the more brutal South American juntas - fascists just like Hitler and Mussolini - maybe not on the same scale but still thugs.

My cousin served in the Royal Marines during that conflict and he said it was the most rewarding experience seeing the look on the faces of the Islanders when they were liberated.


No sir, there was nothing cavalier about that campaign.

In closing, thank you for your service and thank you for my freedom.

a. and tond the sacrifice tothers t

75

Stonefish,

Prince George,BC 12/11/2007 21:40:53

#66 Gayle..I will not get you started on the question of aboriginals for in the context of this discussion your ignorance of the topic will prevail. I am one of "Natives" you are referring to in "whiteman language" (sorry couldn't resist it) and I will make a couple of short comments for your edification. My people have much to fight the Departmant of Indian Affairs over, land claims and Treaty Rights but we have nothing but the highest respect for the Dept. of Veterans Affiars. My father and his brothers served oversees with the Canadian Army in WW2 and as wounded veteran (Monte Cassino, Italian campaign) he has been well cared for by DVA as has my mother. I am the rebel, teaching at University of the North her in PG but I cannot flaunt the DVA>

76

CANUCK,

HORRIFIED -TORONTO- CANADA 12/11/2007 21:54:52

Having just read the article I was horrified to read about Mr.Stonham, I cannot find words to express my anger that this should have happened to a service man in today's society.

Despite all the wars we have had to go through It seems nothing has changed in attitudes to ex servicemen.

Like so many others I had several Uncles who suffered all their lives after ww11 from either wounds or injuries from being bombed or torpedoed - none of them got anything, not even a thank you, and had to suffer in silence.

I have a very nasty taste in my mouth about the powers that be - but I would not like to have my comments struck off as unsuitable.

77

Dunnie,

Canada 12/11/2007 21:57:15

82- Well said.

Lived in PG for 3 yrs on the banks of the Nechako.

My brother still lives there 30 yrs on.

78

Dunnie,

Canada 12/11/2007 22:00:10

83 - Read about MCpl Franklin, one of ours who lost both legs in Afghanistan and I think you will be uplifted about his courage and the support that he is receiving from the Army and Canadians.

79

whatsyourname,

12/11/2007 22:14:35

# 82 I think your right, the Natives have recived millions from the Canadian Goverment for land and they are stll paying you folks should be doin alright,and a few years back they discverd natives were not the first people to live in Canada.

80

tyson,

'Naptowne by the Bay 12/11/2007 22:31:30

When I was 18 I had the opportunity to travel extensively around the UK, and was stunned by the many memorials to the dead of the "Great War." Every university, village green, rail station and post office seemed to have a long sad list of students, neighbors or employees who had served and died. WWII deaths were often added on, but usually, thank God, those lists were shorter. Looking at the heartfelt plaques, no doubt paid for by the stunned survivors, it was not difficult to imagine the families who received a telegram informing them that xxxxx was killed in action, or was missing and presumed dead. For the first time I was able to understand the horrific events that had blighted an entire generation and totally changed western society. My own military experience in the peacetime U.S. Army was uneventful, and now, in middle age as a reservist in another branch of service, I await developments.

81

Murdoch #2,

USA 12/11/2007 22:36:39

DOES IT MATTER?

Does it matter? Losing your legs?
For people will always be kind
And you need not show that you mind
When the others come in after hunting
To gobble their muffins and eggs.

Does it matter? Losing your sight?
There's such splendid work for the blind,
And people will always be kind
As you sit on the terrace, remembering
And turning your face to the light.

Do they matter? Those dreams from the pit?
You can drink and forget and be glad.
And people won't say that you're mad,
For they'll know that you fought for your country,
And no one will worry a bit.

Siegfried Sassoon
English Soldier
World War One

82

Dunnie,

Canada 12/11/2007 22:40:33

88 - Murdoch - very, very relevant. Sassoon, Owen and others put into a context that we could only just begin to understand. Have you seen the film 'Regeneration"?

83

Dunnie,

Canada 12/11/2007 23:01:41

86 - Your views are not relevant to this thread. Take them elsewhere.

84

The anchor,

12/11/2007 23:04:33

what joy at having the freedom to grace these pages with our comments. I believe that without the sacrifices made by our servicemen & women this much taken for granted freedom may not have been possible. I thank all those who served and still serve giving their all for our protection. We all