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Waterboarding, slapping, sensory deprivation – all on US tactics list

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Published Date: 18 June 2008
AMERICAN military officials tasked with training US troops to resist enemy interrogations provided Pentagon lawyers with a list of abusive tactics that could be used in prisons such as Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib, the Senate armed services committee heard yesterday.
It also emerged at the hearing that US officials "hid" Guantanamo prisoners who had been harshly interrogated from the international committee of the Red Cross, the body empowered to monitor compliance with Geneva Convention rules on treatment of mi
litary prisoners.

The hearing is the committee's first look at the origins of the harsher methods used in the prison at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba and at Abu Ghraib in Iraq and how policy decisions on interrogations were vetted across the defence department.

Its review fits into a broader picture of the US government's handling of detainees, which includes FBI and CIA interrogations in secret prisons.

Democrat Senator Carl Levin, chairman of the committee, said harsh techniques were pursued despite strong objections in November 2002 by the US military's uniformed lawyers.

"If we use those same techniques offensively against detainees, it says to the world that they have America's stamp of approval," said Mr Levin.

"That puts our troops at greater risk of being abused if they're captured. It also weakens our moral authority and harms our efforts to attract allies in the fight against terrorism."

The committee released previously secret memos dating from the 2002 inception of the harsh interrogation programme at Guantanamo. In one of them, the top military lawyer there, Lieutenant-Colonel Diane Beaver, explains that the defence department had made a practice of hiding prisoners who were being treated harshly, even abusively, from the International Committee of the Red Cross, a non-governmental body empowered to monitor compliance with Geneva Convention rules for the treatment of military prisoners.

Senator Lindsey Graham, a Republican, said the administration's legal analysis on detainees and interrogations following the 9/11 attacks would "go down in history as some of the most irresponsible and shortsighted legal analysis ever provided to our nation's military and intelligence communities".

According to the Senate committee's findings, the Pentagon's top civilian lawyer at the time, Jim Haynes, became interested in using harsher interrogation methods as early as July 2002 when his office inquired into a military programme that trained soldiers on how to survive interrogations and deny foes valuable intelligence.

Mr Haynes and other officials wanted to know if the programme – known as "Survival Evasion Resistance and Escape" training – could be used to develop more effective interrogation methods.

Richard Shiffrin, Mr Haynes's former deputy on intelligence, said his interest was not so much in trying to "reverse engineer" tactics to be used against the enemy but rather in tapping military expertise in interrogation.

In response, the head of the joint personnel recovery agency, which ran the survival programme, said resistance training included sensory deprivation, sleep disruption, forcing prisoners to stay in stress positions, waterboarding (simulated drowning) and slapping. Several of those techniques, including stress positions, were approved by the defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, in a 2002 memo.

Levin said these techniques were approved despite fierce objections a month earlier by the military services' lawyers.

In separate memos, the lawyers told the joint chiefs of staff that the techniques warranted further study and could be illegal.

Democrats contend that the Senate investigation will refute the Bush administration's argument that abuse in some military prisons was only the fault of a handful of personnel.

Shocking revelations from senior officer

THE memos from Lieutenant-Colonel Diane Beaver are the most shocking aspect of the information revealed by the Armed Services Committee hearings. In essence, they confirm the US military was actively involved in hiding from the International Committee of the Red Cross prisoners it had "harshly" interrogated.

Lt-Col Beaver confirmed that the military was secretly using previously forbidden techniques, such as sleep deprivation, but hiding them so as not to draw "negative attention".

"Officially, it is not happening," she said, according to minutes from the meeting. "It is not being reported officially. The ICRC is a serious concern. They will be in and out, scrutinising our operations, unless they are displeased and decide to protest and leave. This would draw a lot of negative attention."

Lt-Col Beaver said interrogators should "curb the harsher operations while ICRC is around".

The officer was speaking at a meeting on 2 October, 2002, between CIA and military lawyers and military intelligence officials on how to counter the resistance of Guantanamo detainees to military interrogation.

Lt-Col Beaver's comments suggest the CIA's practice of hiding unregistered "ghost detainees" from the ICRC at military jails may have been as much in service to the Pentagon's interrogation programme as it was to the CIA's.

A senior CIA lawyer at the meeting, John Fredman, explained that whether harsh interrogation amounts to torture "is a matter of perception".

"If the detainees die, you're doing it wrong," he said.



The full article contains 830 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 17 June 2008 10:36 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Guantánamo Bay , Iraq
 
1

2dogs in D.C.,

18/06/2008 00:47:41
Just winning those hearts and minds, people. Actually, I went through some of that training, including waterboarding....It's torture, folks. No IFS,ANDS,or BUTS.
2

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 18/06/2008 00:52:47
here's 2 bible verses.

"Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[fn2] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

there you have it. god created man (& woman) in his own image. when judgement comes I do not think that the people who authorize torture or finance torture or do torture of men will be judged positively.

We all know that torture does not produce sound intelligence or accurate information. it is instead a trapping of a totalitarian state that says to all that whoever opposes will be dealt with harshly.

Presidential candidate John McCain was tortured. Believe it or not there is credible information showing that McCain's 'war hero' status is not what we've been told. Here is link on this.

http://www.wclt.com/news/articledetail.cfm?articleid=23261


3

,

18/06/2008 01:03:26
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4

American,

18/06/2008 01:12:57
#3-Harry-Bravo!! They're against waterboarding for murdering terrorists like khaled sheik mohammed!
ps-we know there's a "murderer bush" comment coming.
5

,

18/06/2008 01:37:53
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6

Dáithí,

San Jose 18/06/2008 02:53:24
Wally -

1 - Ron Paul lost out because he's an idiot. Get over it and learn to deal with reality.

2 - There is no 'creditable' information at your link, it is from a leftist radio show at a college, U of Ohio - Zanesville.

Wally, you couldn't get a more obscure, biased link if you put on a tin hat and microwaved your brain. Oh, you already did? Sorry, I forgot.

Here's how it starts: JOHN McCAIN
THE MOST FLAWED PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE IN HISTORY

Your man, RP (REST in PEACE or RON PAUL, whatever) lost, Wally. He lost because the 'Tin Hat' crowd LIKED him - which was a BIG omen to the rest of us.

In response to Nixon/Ford, the looney Left and the desert-dwelling survivalists of the Right gave us Carter in response - someone who WAS actually the 'worst PRESIDENT' in history.

Why do you chronically complain about the carpy campaigns and candidates, then resort to the same lame, biased tactics? Is it impossible for you to focus on the issues and forward articles that address these, instead of pap?

Why do guys like you make such sore losers? Why aren't you happy with being just the plain, old loser that we all know and love??
7

,

18/06/2008 03:04:13
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8

Dáithí,

San Jose 18/06/2008 03:25:12
>"Why did Ron Paul ever run as a republican?"

IMHO it's because Republicans are the 'small government' party. The extremes usually have clout in the primaries and that is where Ron Paul should have exhibited some muscle, made himself a presence and gained some favorable planks in the Republican platform for his position. This is where he failed, because his ego didn't allow him to accept that his overall positions make him unelectable.

>"Carter was indeed the worst president in recent history"

It can be debated that Carter was as bad as Grant, but at most he was TIED for the 'worst President in history'!

>"At least Clinton had someone keep him in check for 6 of his 8 years. "

I predicted Obama over McCain, but to stay in power he will need to remember that Representatives run for office every two years, and if he wants to keep a Democratic Congress then he needs to keep 'his' congressmen electable.

Clinton gave the US a Republican Congress, will Obama do the same??
9

Covert Action,

18/06/2008 05:24:21
@1 & @2 - the next time there is an atrocity in the US don't come on here whining and looking for sympathy. You couple of traitors.
10

Pass the Buck,

US 18/06/2008 07:57:23
What is unfortunate is that Col Beaver, despite her honesty and expertise, will be left to be hung out to dry as the scapegoat for the techniques used.

Bottom line -
Bush Administration approved and was aware of these activities - he is just trying to shield his accountability with all of the layers of bureocracy put in place with the JTF.
11

Linus,

at arm's length 18/06/2008 08:05:26
Yup, That's right, just keep on condoning torture and keep torturing suspects, that's right, suspects. Your day will come, and you'll be strapped to the board and singing like a canary, but you won't know what you're confessing to, for you're only a suspect, and you're actually innocent. I wish that it was only your Administration that were the idiots, but you morons keep coming out of the woodwork and keep backing your Administration, that says a lot for and about you. Also, try to remember, "what goes around, comes around", and your very own troops will suffer the same fate in some other country, and then you'll be whining and crying to what ever governing body of international law that will listen to you, but they'll tell you, "what goes around, comes around".
12

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 18/06/2008 08:18:21
#6 Dáithí

"There is no 'creditable' information at your link"

Well it's full of names and dates and places, so surely it can be verified or otherwise. It's a lot more informative than the "there's no truth in these rumours" statements we frequently hear from politicians.

You imply that the writing is some "loony left" propaganda, but how does that square with these concluding lines:

"Are you a genuine social conservative? Do you believe in our wonderful Constitution? Are you opposed the Iraq War and its precursor strategies that have killed hundreds of thousands of innocents? Are you fiscally responsible? Do you truly understand the principles of republicanism? Do you believe in marital fidelity? Are you a supporter of free speech? I submit that if your answer to any of these questions is yes, you cannot vote for John McCain and retain your integrity.."
13

Spoot,

Third rock pool on the left 18/06/2008 08:29:57
Is there any possibility of installing some form of quality filter for postings from the good ol' US of A?
There's no objection to our having the opportunity to read rational contributions to these messageboards, but we get far too much mere drivel from that source.
14

paulr,

edinburgh 18/06/2008 08:40:43
Never mind the doublespeak,
harsh interrogation programme = TORTURE
15

No 42 days,

18/06/2008 09:04:20
911 was an inside job. Look at the evidence.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-3719259008768610598&q=loosechange&ei=LMJYSI-AB4eUiwK3zJjgDg
16

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 18/06/2008 09:21:11
#3 Harry "Dingy" Reid

"You people are pathetic in how you enable those who are killing our soldiers".

...That's exactly what Hitler said to some of his more ethical military before they toed the line.
17

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 18/06/2008 09:27:49
#9 Covert Action

"You couple of traitors."

Defending torture and labelling your opponents as traitors. You should apply to the ZANU party. I hear they're looking for a new leader.
18

2dogs in D.C.,

18/06/2008 10:06:36
It never ceases to amaze me how the hard core right always assume that being liberal automatically makes you a pacifist. Wrong. I'd like to know how long and in what branch of service Harry, Lynne,and Covert served. Just by the way, anyone who would care to see if i'd turn the other cheek would soon discover another part of the training i've had. As in that would be the last thing they would remember, as the woke up in the E.R.
19

Guga II,

Rockall 18/06/2008 10:26:27
Once again the rednecks and their kill 'em all, or nuke 'em all, attitudes are displayed for the world to see. If it moves, shoot it, if it doesn't, torture it, eh boys?

Bush and his adminstration, as well as a goodly number of American servicemen, are war criminals, and should be tried for their crimes.

The same rednecks would soon be bleating loudly if it was a case of American troops being kidnapped, tortured, beaten and murdered; especially in the numbers involved. I understand that 80,000 people have been through the "process" of being tortured and beaten, even though the majority of them have subsequently been released.

In any event, if the above rednecks are so gung-ho, why aren't they in Iraq or Afghanistan fighting for their beliefs?

As pointed out above, ZANU are looking for members, and the above rednecks would fit in perfectly.

You people are a total disgrace to your country, and are helping to besmirch it and drag it into the mire.

20

,

18/06/2008 10:31:32
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21

Wally,

By the Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 18/06/2008 10:41:53
Selgovae in #13:

that link I put up in #2 is full of good information. It is information that is also printed elsewhere in many articles & books. That fellow Jack McLamb sited in that book is a right-wing talk show host, I met him myself years ago. There are many vietnam vets against McCain just as the article says and for the reasons said. The incident mentioned in that link about how McCain accidentally killed 167 Americans is true. McCain was using irregular procedures for the sake of showing off, it got 167 people killed. I saw an actual video of the incident, McCain survived by running from the scene, he made no effort to warn anyone even, all the others around him died. here's another 2 links about McCain.

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mccain_lost_five_u.htm

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/21129038/full_metal_mccain

there are numerous articles talking about the propaganda tapes McCain allegedly made for the North Vietnamese. There are Americans who claim to have heard them. But as yet I haven't heard the actual recordings. But as the link I put up in #2 says the most damning thing against McCain is the legislation he sponsored to cover up the government's information about the missing prisoners. As the article said he was likely also covering up evidence against himself.
22

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 18/06/2008 10:47:54
Selgovae in #13:

one more thing - about a month ago there was a press release from Vietnamese government on McCain. It said that they did give him preferential treatment while he was imprisoned due to his father being an important person. I remember being in McCain's presence when he was first running for office over 25 years ago and he did not tell the story in that manner at all.
23

2dogs in D.C.,

18/06/2008 11:13:00
Interesting, Harry. HM3,myself for 10 years-72-82. My Marines called me Doc.
24

W Smith,

Middle East 18/06/2008 11:35:21
Oh we can't have the muslim terrorists being subjected to "slapping" now can we?

The fact that Castro has killed and tortured poeple in Cuba for disagreeing with him is not an issue but the treatment of muslim terrorists in the same territory is of major importance to the SNP leadership to the point they have to demonstrate outside the American Consulate in Edinburgh.

SNP entertained the Iranian ambassador a few weeks ago and simply 'forgot' to complain about the Iranian law that specifies the size of stone to be used for stoning people to death - as they must not be too big as death may come to early.

WE WOULDN'T WANT THAT NOW WOULD WE, EH SALMOND?

Salmond can turn a blind eye to death by stoning in Iran and the jailing, torturing and execution of dissidents in Cuba but the thought of some terrorists 'suspects' getting a good kicking has got him greetin' and snivelling like a wee sensitive lassie.

GROW UP MAN- THIS IS WAR!


BTW
It wasn't the Stone of Destiny that saved the day at Glasgow Airport but a baggage handler who knew it was time to put the boot in!
25

,

18/06/2008 12:05:59
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26

Anonym,

18/06/2008 12:06:40
W Smith, US tactics are nothing to do with Salmond. It's up to the Americans to discuss and decide their own laws.

Likewise the Iranians.

Having said that, I have no sympathy for people who would attack Western values.
27

Number 6,

Germany 18/06/2008 12:13:10
A shameful indictment of the US military. Can't you people see, torture is not permitted in a civilised society, that is why you are having to cancel trials because the only evidence you have to present, is that
gained using torture. This is why this torture camp has been set up off shore , to try and avoid civilised standards of justice. Thank God the supreme court had a handful of brave judges , willing to stand up to this thuggish regime,and refusing to allow your Kangaroo courts .

Now that 35 articles of impeachment have been served on Bush we must pray that Obama, should he stay alive long enough to take the Whitehouse, gets rid of that dreadful woman Pelosi and indeed puts impeachment for Bush , and the other war criminals firmly back on the table.

28

Number 6,

Germany 18/06/2008 12:14:39
#25 Ha Ha Ha Ha. Keep it up you gibbering buffoon.
29

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 18/06/2008 12:20:02
#22, 23 Wally

Thanks for the info.

However, I don't think McCain has ever denied receiving preferential treatment once his captors knew who his father was. And he has said openly that he made 'propaganda confessions'. "Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine",. (Quoted from Wikipedia) I can't argue with that.
30

,

18/06/2008 12:23:03
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31

Number 6,

Germany 18/06/2008 12:23:36
Anyone wanting to get inside McCain's head need only read the transcript of the speech he gave atthe :

Munchener Konferenz fur Sicherheitspolitik in Feb 2002, in Munich.The speech was titled "From Crisis to
Oppertunity: American Internationalism and the New Atlantic Order.

Reel in horror as this maniac lays out the "Benefits"
of going to war. A 100% Neo-Con, who incidentally like
the hopeless Bush, is a pathalogical Liar, who will be exposed during the up and coming election campaign.

Don't worry , there is an English translation on the site.
32

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 18/06/2008 12:27:52
#25 W Smith

"but a baggage handler who knew it was time to put the boot in!"

Which is why he's a hero to most peopl. He knew when to put the boot in and knew when to stop. His attitude was "you cannae dae that". I might be wrong, but I don't think he's the kind of guy to support hitting people who are tied up. I think you're more likely to find your kind of hero in some Middle East jails.
33

Iain's,

Barcelona 18/06/2008 13:00:15
I've found it useful to complain to ordinary Americans I meet.

It is amazing when you point out that Morocco is Spain's Southern neighbour and lots of 'Moros' live and work here.

34

No 42 days,

18/06/2008 13:05:07
I liked Ron Paul.
35

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

18/06/2008 13:22:03
35

Iain's - I have wanted to complain about the US to ordinary Americans as well but ther's a certain amount of 'stiff upper lip' to it, for me at least.

Don't complain, don't make waves blah blah. also there's a risk of being branded to ones face as a namby-pamby bleeding heart liberal - upon which I would HAVE to prove that wasn't the case and I don't need arresting any more thankyou very much.

It's a good probability that MOST ordinary yanks are no longer pro-war I suppose, but it would be MY luck to get the die-hard Nazi, sorry I mean Neo-Con.

Any dissenters reading this - I am NOT a Liberal neither am I a Socialist, I am a National Socialist! This belief doesn't HAVE to mean death to all, it just means looking after your own people first.

Oh, that makes America a National Socialist Country!! WooHoo!!

Heil Bush!!
36

Biker,

Ayr 18/06/2008 13:45:55
So now they come clean about torture. Bush and his allies need to be brought before a court and tried for war crimes.
I dont suppose it occured to them that the minute people were abducted to Guantanamo Bay, that the enemy would change their plans? Torture does NOT work, it has been proven over and over that all it does in distance the interrogator from the interrogatee. IE makes the truth harder to get.
According to recent psychological reports, if you want to radicalise a sector of the comunity, begin ill treating them and watch the backlash grow.
Remember most in Guantanamo have been charged with NOTHING, but held for many years and ill treated. So Harry Reid and American, you need to think again. Hearts and minds folks.
37

Number 6,

Germany 18/06/2008 14:14:12
#39 Is that the excuse the torture appeasers are using ?. They do it to . Does that make it right or civillised ???. Face it America, you have lost this argument hands down. We can only pray the FBI reprise the war crimes file they have opened on this hell-hole.
38

Linus,

at arm's length 18/06/2008 14:19:19
#39 Big Jock McDoc,
Unless you've been subjected to any and all methods of torture, who are you to compare? Torture is just that, it is illegal, but the US thumbs its nose at any law(s)that go against what it wants to do, so it just keeps breaking any law it feels like breaking. Was Saddam an evil and sadistic man? Yes he was, but the one who had him captured and killed, a certain Goerge w. Bush, is far worse. Bush is doing what Saddam was doing, but Bush is doing it globally, it's time that Bush and his Administration pals are arrested and tried for what Saddam was tried for, and that would be known as war crimes. Anybody here commenting in favour of American policy regarding torture anmd illegal invasion and war, are the true terrorist appeasers, for the Americans are the original and worst of the lot, bar none.
39

Anonym,

18/06/2008 14:29:20
#40

No not an excuse, because it's obvious that many other countries do far worse than waterboarding and slapping! Amputation, whipping, stoning to death... that kind of thing. Get a grip.

and #41

Do you seriously think the Americans are the worst of the lot! Who would you rather was running the show?
40

Linus,

at arm's length 18/06/2008 14:30:00
#40 Number 6,
I am afraid that the FBI ranks right up there with the CIA, IRS, ATF, DEA and any of those federal agencies in the US. That whole country is run by crooks at the federal level, and they think that they own the world, and that everybody else has to conform. Remember Bush's slogan, " if your not with us, you're against us", Well I guess that we're all against them, for we sure as hell aren't with them.
41

Linus,

at arm's length 18/06/2008 14:34:58
#42 Anonym,
Come again? Rather ???? is running the show?
Yes, I am convinced that the Americans are the worst of the lot, that's why they have so many troops in so many countries, forcing their ideals on people. Can you show me a worse lot?
42

Linus,

at arm's length 18/06/2008 14:43:21
#42 Anonym,
Every country needs to be running their own show, who are the Americans to think that they have the need to run the show all over the world? The Americans are failing at every level to control their own country, look at your econmy and crime rate, and learn to stay in America, we don't want you to interfere with us, and I'm saying that on behalf of all the countries in the world, yes, that's all the countries. Just because you provide military aid to some countries, doesn't mean that they like to be told to what to do by you. In time that military aid will backfire, and they'll use it against you, if you don't keep your noses out of their affairs.
43

Reading Public 1,

Wisc 18/06/2008 15:27:52
Wally why would you expect him to point it out that they gave him better treatment?
44

Number 6,

Germany 18/06/2008 15:35:22
#42 Your either in favour of using torture, or your not.
Some ofm the interigation logs that have been released from Guantanamo, are the stuff of nightmares. When we can finally get Bush to admit he authorised these methods, then we can haul his filthy carcass off to jail.
45

Number 6,

Germany 18/06/2008 15:39:47
#43 True the FBI are no heros, however they at least had the decency to open a war-crimes file after what they witnessed there. They were pulled out of Guantanimo because as the chief said, "We don't do that". He was of course speaking of the torture his agents witnessed. Imagine his horror when on complaining to the Whitehouse , he discovered that is where the authorisation, via the infamous "Torture Memo", had come from.

Typically they have now "Suspended the file", rather than expose and close down Bush's torture camp.
46

AJ Fife,

18/06/2008 15:53:11
The Gestapo is alive and well and operating under the American Govt!

Did the list contain the old 'hang 'em by the n!pples' routine?
47

,

18/06/2008 16:32:16
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48

presto,

U.K 18/06/2008 16:37:20
#39 McDoc

Gosh! I never realize Al Qaeda’s torture tactics can be that barbaric although I knew them for being very popular with chopping off heads of living human beings.
49

John Blackley,

Florida 18/06/2008 16:53:04
This news (and I've been following the Congressional hearings here) makes me sad.

Sad because the political animals have only, "If we do it to their guys then they'll do it to our guys." as a reason to ban torture. Not "Ban it because it degrades us." Not "Ban it because it is fundamentally immoral". Not "Ban it because it removes us from the moral high ground." But then, expecting arguments based on right and morality from the Washington scavengers is up there with expecting Scotland to win the World Cup.

Sad because this government was stupid enough to get caught. Yep, - and this is not an endorsement of torture (as my own views on that will remain private for the time being - our government is so far from being able to control its own people that news of torture leaked out almost as fast as they could dunk terrorists.

And sad because of the way the government handled the question of whether torture is legal or not. A Lieutenant-Colonel from the Judge Advocate General's office wrote an opinion and that was what the government went with. Not something from the Justice Department, not something from the Attorney General's office. A light Colonel from the JAG.

Sad.
50

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 18/06/2008 16:59:38
Reading Public in 46:

The reason I mention what the Vietnamese government recently said in their press release that they gave McCain preferential treatment is just to document the story-line that is emerging about McCain. See the links I put up in #2 & #22. Especially look at the info linked to in that Vietnam Vets Against McCain site.

If you read Admiral Stockdale's description of what happened in those prisons, then you know that in some of them at least all of the men were tortured. and the ethic the military indoctrinated the men in was that they were not to yield any info other than name rank serial #. That ethic broke down completely in those prisons and Admiral Stockdale wrote an entirely new standard for the military that they use today as a result. The new ethic is that the prisoners are to yield information & cooperate only to save their lives. In the North Vietnamese prisons if the men didn't do this, then they'd end up dead from torture. So, the only ones that didn't break were the ones who died. There were many who gave up some info or pretended to, but they required their captors to torture them for it. In this way a game of cat & mouse was played where the captors kept the men alive to slowly extract info from them. and the prisoners tried to give either false or useless info only - if they could.

The pattern that is emerging on McCain is that he did a lot more than the others. He yielded quickly and overwhelmingly. He went over to their side is what some people are saying. He gave them valuable information that helped them set up their anti-aircraft guns much more effectively. He made it seems dozens of propaganda tapes that were broadcast. People are accusing him of getting an apartment in Hanoi with 2 prostitutes.

and people are saying that the legislation he sponsored around 1990 to bury a lot of government information about the American prisoners was really a means of protecting himself from his own reputation being
51

Reader11722,

New York, New York 18/06/2008 17:01:57
Waterboarding, yet another infringement on our rights by the gov't. Add it to the ever-growing list of violations:
They violate the 1st Amendment by opening mail, caging demonstrators and banning books like "America Deceived" from Amazon.
They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina.
They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps.
They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus.
They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing.
They violate the entire Constitution by starting 2 illegal wars based on lies and on behalf of a foriegn gov't.
Support Dr. Ron Paul and save this great country.
Last link (unless Google Books caves to the gov't and drops the title):
http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0
52

Dáithí,

San Jose 18/06/2008 17:21:56
#13 - Selgovae

>"Well it's full of names and dates and places, so surely it can be verified or otherwise"

Then why isn't it? Wally lives in a world of negatives and you can't prove (or disprove) a negative. His conclusions are simply ones that support his hatred at his candidates loss. For instance:

1. There was an accident on a carrier that McCain was on.

Wally's conclusion? - McCain was guilty.

Why? Because he WASN'T found at guilty!

Since McCain was, in Wally's mind, surely guilty (because this supports Wally's anti-McCain position), and since McCain comes from a Navy family, then he must have been NOT found guilty because of his family connections!

Here's a site that outlines many 'logical fallacies', I think that you'll find them helpful in identifying how different arguments are made (if you are not already familiar with them):

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Check out 'Burden of Proof', 'Appeal to Belief' and 'Confusing Cause and Effect'.

And these do NOT even address the 'Conspiracy Theory' mentality - I don't even want to go there.
53

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 18/06/2008 17:34:48
Datey datey datey:

it is important to understand that when the accident happened on the USS Forestal it was actually caused by John McCain. This was the conclusion of the people who looked into it. McCain was in a jet getting ready to take off and another jet was right behind his also getting ready to take off. McCain used an unusual procedure to start the engine called a 'wet start' that resulted in lots of flame coming out the back end of the jet. He did this as a joke towards the pilot behind. Unfortunately, this action McCain took also caused some weaponry to fire. McCain inside the cockpit recognized the distinctive sound of the launching of this weaponry and immediately upon hearing it bolted up out of the cockpit, out and to the deck, as soon as his feet hit the deck he ran very rapidly to safety. He made no effort to warn anyone around him. I've seent he actual video of this incident. McCain survived. But I think 167 others died. 20 jets were lost and the ship almost sunk.

If you'll read the info I put up this sort of thing was a pattern with McCain in that he had a lot of accidents. and he tended to lie a little bit about these accidents as well.
54

Dáithí,

San Jose 18/06/2008 17:42:31
#13 - Selgovae

Selgovae, let's review Wally's post #2 -

"Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; ...

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in His own image;...

there you have it. god created man (& woman) in his own image"

THERE YOU HAVE IT? PROOF? A NON-NEGOTIABLE FACT AS THE BASIS FOR ALL FURTHER CONCLUSIONS!

On this foundation (I'm NOT making an anti-religious statement), you can't prove Wally wrong, can you? Can you prove God DOESN'T exist?

[Fallacies] Burden of proof (Examples, #3)

3. "You cannot prove that God does not exist, so He does."

So, using links to blogs or obscure radio stations (or the Bible) that says what he wants to hear, he used them as a FACTUAL basis for discussion - after all, can you prove them wrong?

There you have it! ;)

BTW, you'll see a lot of these, it's not limited to one person.
55

Dáithí,

San Jose 18/06/2008 18:07:49
Wally:

>"that link I put up in #2 is full of good information."

You define 'good' as information that you want to hear. More 'God created man in his own image stuff'.

>It is information that is also printed elsewhere in many articles & books"

Since you forwarded a left-wing radio show from the U of Ohio - Zanesville as your top choice, we can assume that your other 'information' is even less balanced.

>"There are many vietnam vets against McCain just as the article says and for the reasons said"

There are many View Nam vets against everybody and everything, ask John Kerry - doesn't mean that they were right then either.

> The incident mentioned in that link about how McCain accidentally killed 167 Americans is true.

ACCIDENTALLY? So your 'proof' is that he was the scene of an accident? This goes against your faulty reasoning that the 'wet start' was intentional. It certainly was NOT uncommon to use wet starts, nor was it always as a joke. There certainly could be other reasons, NONE of which you discuss - because they don't support your politics.

>" McCain was using irregular procedures for the sake of showing off, it got 167 people killed.

"Irregular"? It was commonly used, see above.

>"For the sake of showing off" (??)

Where do you forward any PROOF of that? NEITHER LINK that you forwarded provided any PROOF of that.

>I saw an actual video of the incident,..."

So since it actually HAPPENED, you forward this as proof that it happened the way that you BELIEVE THAT IT HAPPENED?

Enough. Take a look at this site Wally, and pay particular attention to 'Appeal to Belief' and 'Burden of Proof' - heck, take the time to familiarize yourself with them all.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

It's like this site was created with you in mind.
56

,

18/06/2008 18:13:20
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57

Selgovae,

18/06/2008 18:44:00
#55, 57 Dáithí

You're not making any sense. I read Wally's post (and the link) and formed my own opinion. If you want to demolish his case, please do it to Wally and not to me.

But you said the linked article wasn't 'creditable'. The only argument you gave was that it came from a leftist radio show at college.
58

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 18/06/2008 18:48:50
Datey, the site I linked to in #2 is not from a university. you merely saw an advertisement banner at the top and assumed that the university sponsors the web site, but they do not. and if you'll read the article at the end they credit themselves as being conservatives. Doesn't matter to me, conservaitve, liberal - I reject that paradigm.

But let me quote from that link below.

"The starter motor switch on the A4E Skyhawk allowed fuel to pool in the engine. When the aircraft was “wet-started,” an impressive flame would shoot from the tail. It was one of the ways young hot-shots got their jollies. Investigators and survivors took the position that McCain deliberately wet-started to harass the F4 pilot directly behind him. The cook off launched an M34 Zuni rocket that tore through the Skyhawk’s fuel tank, released a thousand pound bomb, and ignited a fire that killed the pilot plus 167 men. Before the tally of dead and dying was complete, the son and grandson of admirals had been transferred to the USS Oriskany."

this wet-starting procedure is irregular and it is discouraged. It is done to show off. McCain did it and it caused his plane to malfunction and this caused the deaths of 167 people. As I said I saw the video taken by a camera on the ship. McCain did not shout to anyone, he made no effort at all to warn anyone, he simply ran for safety himself. He did reach safety. But all the others died.

59

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 18/06/2008 18:51:19
Datey:

If you read the rest of that article I linked to in #2 and the other one I put up in #22 you'll see that there's a lot of information indicating that McCain may have been a bit of a traitor in Hanoi. Here is an article written about how it was that in previous wars such traitors were dealt with.

http://www.the-peoples-forum.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=1332

It strikes me as odd that in 1967 John McCain's father was a traitor in that he was a key person stopping a military response to defend the USS Liberty when it was attacked by Israel, and at about the same time McCain himself was being a traitor in the Hanoi POW camp. and here he is running as a war-hero and more importantly - a war-monger.

All the American men tortured in north vietnam either broke or died. But a very few went over to the other side. McCain seems to be one who went to the other side. See this link.

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_hopper_video.htm


60

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 18/06/2008 19:12:11
here's the transcript of 1 of McCain's propaganda broadcasts while a POW.

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/McCAIN%20RADIO%20BROADCAST%20from%20Ha%20Noi%20060269.pdf

Allegedly he made something like 28 broadcasts and this one is very mild compared to the others according to Americans who heard them. But I don't know where transcripts or recordings for the others are.

Washington has lots & lots of documents about the US prisoners that it hides. Many of those prisoners were known to be alive in the prison camps, but never came home. Many people would like to know as much as they can about their loved ones. But John McCain sponsored legislation to hide it all.

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_secretworldofmccain.htm

Did he do this because he fears embarassing information on himself? Why was John McCain Vietnam's best friend in Washington? Here is an astonishing list of links that raises big questions.

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_whybestfreindvietam.htm

61

Paddi,

18/06/2008 19:16:38
It's torture.

62

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 18/06/2008 19:17:25
perhaps we should be loyal to the American men who died while being tortured by the Vietnamese communists - and thus not support McCain at all.

McCain lost 5 jets that he himself was piloting for the US navy. Additionally he caused the destruction of 23 others with his carelesness. And he almost sunk an aircraft carrier as well as causing the deaths of 167 of his fellow navy men. On top of that he helped the vietnamese communists adjust their anti-aircraft guns in a manner that created serious challenges and caused some of our men to be shot down.

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mccain_lost_five_u.htm

McCain's made enough mistakes already. Lets not give him an opportunity to make more.
63

John Blackley,

Florida 18/06/2008 19:33:43
Wally, are you heading the anti-McCain version of the Swift Boat group?
64

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 18/06/2008 20:15:40
John in 66:

No, I'm not heading a formal effort. I just don't think we should elect a man not loyal to our country.

There were many American men tortured in north Vietnam. Some died from it. Most tolerated a lot of torture and gave up a very little information. McCain tolerated a very little torture and became a collaborator. out of loyalty to the men that died in that torture we should make a distinction at this time and not reward this man.

Out of respect to the American men who were captured by the North Vietnamese and alive in captivity yet never came home we should not promote the Senator who worked so hard to cover up all information about them.

We should take a good long hard look at this man's track record. Also remember - the last 3 presidents we've had (GHW Bush, Bill Clinton & GW Bush) have all been traitors. They're pursuing many policies directly contrary to the American interest, policies that harm our nation severely, wars that will one day bring our destruction as well. and its been all 3 of them. We have a problem with leadership in our country. John McCain looks like another traitor. We need to be aware.

So do you in UK & Europe - because these are important events, the destruction of the world's leading nation by treasonous evil forces from its own leadership.
65

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 18/06/2008 20:20:21
we need to question Obama also. Last week I put up that American Free Press article that questions things in Obama's closet. The pattern is that blackmailable people are raised up to power. and the people who rule us use the leadership of both parties.

My thinking is that if we Americans at least trounce the republicans severely in House, Senate & Presidential elections in November, then at least the world will see that we tried to change course. I feel thats important.

But the clique that rules us is very powerful and able to shape events, able to put its puppets into positions of power, able to control perceptions through the news media, able to deal with its opponents as needed. Obama at least offers some hope whereas McCain does not offer any.
66

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 18/06/2008 20:37:20
here's a Washington Post article that came out today. Retired General Taguba accuses the president of war crimes due to the torture systems.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2008/06/18/BL2008061801546.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Remember retired General Odom who was such a persistent critic of the president's war policies? He died a couple weeks ago, heart problems. I hope Taguba lives for a while.
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,

18/06/2008 20:50:08
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American,

18/06/2008 21:03:41
#28-number 6 from "germany"-You've got some b@lls!! Are we baking these prisoners? are we starving them and making them work? Are they using water (or poison) for their showers?


#59-newman-Big difference (although you and your ilks dont think so) between a hard working jewish civilian and a terrorists who has killed and wants to kill again. Why are they whining about being tortured when they want to blow themselves up anyway? Why are they whining about possibly being released to their own country because they're afraid they'll be tortured? BTW- I guess you missed the story about the 15 year old who didnt want to be released from gitmo (and not from fear of being tortured in his own country). Also, I guess you missed the news about a released prisoner who was released to his own country, found innocent, and then went out and blew up himself and others?
69

,

18/06/2008 21:10:05
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,

18/06/2008 21:11:34
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,

18/06/2008 21:19:34
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Cerberus,

Hades 18/06/2008 21:25:07
"Waterboarding, slapping, sensory deprivation – all on US tactics list"

So too: sleep deprivation, naked pyramids, sexual assault, raping, use of dogs, internment, etc etc etc etc all on top of bombing, invading, killing and more killing plus chemical weapons and depleted uranium and and and and and............

And when it happens to a US soldier all you ridiculous war mongering lunatics will, as some other violent lunatic (the one that sounds like John Wayne) said last night, go off bleating to "mommy".

Barbarians.

73

,

18/06/2008 21:29:43
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Newman!,

18/06/2008 22:06:49
American - you still didnt tell me if you are proud to be on the same side as the National Socialists would have been?

75

Dáithí,

San Jose 18/06/2008 22:08:46
#60 - Selgovae

>"I read Wally's post (and the link) and formed my own opinion. If you want to demolish his case, please do it to Wally and not to me. "

If you formed your opinion on flawed logic, I see no conflict in pointing out why it is flawed to both of you.

Since I don't see any post in this thread where you actually STATED your opinion, I'm sure you can see why I wouldn't believe it to be any different from Wally's.

>"But you said the linked article wasn't 'creditable'. The only argument you gave was that it came from a leftist radio show at college."

In post #58 I pointed out that the article incorrectly:

1. Stated that McCain created a deadly incident because he was playing a 'practical joke' when NO evidence of this is presented in the article.

2. Stated that McCain 'escaped' being charged (for something that was never actually proven), because of family relations.

I would go on (Post #58 does), but I've found that facts change few opinions.
76

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 18/06/2008 22:11:46
what my fellow Americans don't seem to understand is that the only thing different between the current US regime and the NAZI regime of the 1933-1945 era is the scale. We haven't invaded as many countries and we haven't executed as many prisoners. we haven't instigated as much war.

But remember in October or so of 2001 how in Afghanistan at the instruction of US officers Afghan allies put probably over 1,000 men into steel transport containers without any holes drilled even to let the air pass out and transported those men when the temperatures got very hot. and almost all of them died, cooked to death. It would be illegal to transport animals like that. But we're supposed to believe it was an accident. That was reported right in major US media such as Newsweek. Reports were even that the Afghan allies wanted to drill holes in the containers and were told not to by the US officer in charge. that is cold-blooded pre-meditated murder by a government on a large scale.

then there were in fact people beaten to death by US forces in Abu Ghraib at least and likely elsewhere. Even US Army reports say this. And the US has paid many countries to do torture as well, many have died, at least many reports from many sources say so.

here's a related link.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/detainees/story/38886.html
77

Dáithí,

San Jose 18/06/2008 22:32:40
Wally said:

>"- the last 3 presidents we've had (GHW Bush, Bill Clinton & GW Bush) have all been traitors..."

>"...in 1967 John McCain's father was a traitor..."

>"...about the same time McCain himself was being a traitor in the Hanoi POW camp."

>"... a lot of information indicating that McCain may have been a bit of a traitor in Hanoi."

>"...I just don't think we should elect a man not loyal to our country."

>"We have a problem with leadership in our country. John McCain looks like another traitor."

>"we need to question Obama also."

You forgot to call Obama a 'traitor', but I'm sure that you will shortly - if I haven't missed where you already did on other threads.

Wally, the thing you have never understood about America is that just because someone disagrees with you or has beliefs different than you doesn't mean that they are a 'traitor'.

Some people believe that the right to do so is one of the best things about America, apparently not you - since you are quick to call them 'traitor'.

Don't claim that labels mean nothing to you when you are so quick to label those that differ from you as 'traitors'.
78

,

18/06/2008 23:30:07
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79

Newman!,

19/06/2008 00:22:17
81 Your post makes you look like a foool.
You obviously dont know what you are talking about.
You are a enabler of terrorists. You and Dainti and American and all the neo-con twits who think they know about history but betray how little they understand every time they post on here.
80

Dáithí,

San Jose 19/06/2008 00:29:27
Newman -

Yawnnn....

I'd ask you to cite some specifics about our 'failings', but you probably think that the specifics is a big ocean somewhere.
81

Stonefield,

19/06/2008 00:53:19
#82 Newman

Numpty
82

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 19/06/2008 01:03:49
here is a link to the report by the medical group, Physicians For Human Rights, who examined merely a small number of former Abu Ghraib detainees. General Taguba writes the preface and in it he says that President Bush is a war criminal, he says that it was orchestrated by the highest officials in washington. General Taguba is a person who should know, he headed up a big investigation of Abu Ghraib. Afterwards he was pushed out of the army.

http://brokenlives.info/




83

,

19/06/2008 03:09:09
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Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 19/06/2008 03:33:09
Harry Reid in 86:

http://www.truthout.org/article/seymour-hersh-the-generals-report

here's a quote from Seymour Hersh's article about Taguba's family background.

" Taguba's mother, Maria, spent much of the Second World War living across the street from a Japanese-run prisoner-of-war camp in Manila. Taguba remembers her vivid accounts of prisoners who were bayonetted arbitrarily or whose fingernails were pulled out. Antonio, the eldest son (he has six siblings), was born in Manila in 1950. Maria and Tomas were devout Catholics, and their children were taught respect and, Taguba recalls, "above all, integrity in how you lived your life and practiced your religion." "

So he's catholic & came to the US as a child. Here's a quote in same article about this 'affirmative action' you speak of.

" "I'll talk to you about discrimination," he said one morning, while discussing, without bitterness, his early years as an Army officer. "Let's talk about being refused to be served at a restaurant in public. Let's talk about having to do things two times, and being accused of not speaking English well, and having to pay myself for my three master's degrees because the Army didn't think I was smart enough. So what? Just work your ass off. So what? The hard work paid off." "

I don't think they promote people under affirmative action rules in the military.

Taguba said he was forced out of the army after 34 years of service because of his report on the abuses at Abu Ghraib where he blamed the higher-ups in the army rather than a few rogue soldiers in the lower ranks. and it is recently as a retired officer that he has written the real blame is with the president & vice president. Taguba was the officer who oversaw the big investigation for the army.
85

,

19/06/2008 03:47:06
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Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 19/06/2008 04:16:34
I've never been in the military.

I can tell you that the US military does torture people and has tortured them to death and that it is done in many places as well. And I can tell you that the policy occurred because the White House caused it to occur. There are many documents showing this not just the Taguba information. There is the 81 page torture memo by John Yoo. There was also a memo produced by Alberto Gonzales helping to facilitate torture as well.

Whether Tagubo was promoted to general or not merely because he was of fillipino ethnic background is a moot point. But my impression of the US military is that they do not do this affirmative action thing.
87

Dáithí,

19/06/2008 05:05:28
Wally - You are right, again. I think that you would approve of my feelings here.

America tortures people, this is true and a fact, because many people have had to listen to Ron Paul speeches. He went away so now the torture has gotten better, but it still constitutes torture according to the UN. Here is a website that proves what the UN calls torture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_(Dilbert_character)

Here is a website that shows that waterboarding is good and Ron Paul speeches are bad. It is from Fox News so they have a sense of humor which makes them traitors and anti-American:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WjgBkoopUzY&feature=related

The above video also shows a squirrel skiing on a waveboard which is torture to wee animals and is Bush's fault because it is on Fox News and they support Bush. That is true and a fact.

http://www.skiingsquirrel.com/

This shows the abuse, torture and degrading treatment that small animals have had to undergo for the last 8 years under Bush.

This is very sad, this squirrel is a traitor.
88

St. Helena,

Peebles 19/06/2008 06:37:19
Can't we all just get along?
89

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 19/06/2008 07:02:28
#20 Guga

The issue here comes down to human rights (civil liberty). The United States along with most of the allies prosecuted "war criminals" at Nuremburg at the end of World War II. All of them were charged with crimes against humanity.

In my view, regardless the alleged justification, it is inherently wrong to torture another human being. Our U S Constitution was drafted with this issue in mind, promising due process of law for ALL men.

I am not a bleeding heart liberal, but I am a student of the law (US Criminal and Civil Law). The exposure of events at Guantanimo and Abu Grabe merely reflected the philosophy of the Bush Adminsitration when it comes to interrogation techniques.

Of course, as I posted at the time of the Abu Grabe affair, that only the poor lowly grunts were procesuted for their involvement, but I argued that they were merely following orders from higher up the chain of command and that includes the CIA and Military Intelligence boys, whose policy was established by the Bush Administration and the Military Command structure. Yet, Bush said nothing in defense of the young people whose lives were decimated by complying with Bushes policy!

Wrong is wrong! I don't care what your politics might be. No civilized people allows torture of prisoners, regardles the heionous offense they are accused of committing.
90

Number 6,

Germany 19/06/2008 07:54:10
#71 American. We are still unaware what the exact level of torture the US will dare but if they could get away with it I doubt there is nothing you wouldn't do to these men. Get Bush and the rest of this thugs,
both male and female , behind bars where they belong.
91

P.K,

20/06/2008 15:48:47
#39

Yours: http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/05/military_declas.html

Many thanks Big Jock McDoc for the link (I’ve already saved it in my Notebook) which revealed so much of the mutilation and stomach churning torture carried out by the Jihadist savages. The truth has greatly hurt and upset the Islamist terrorist apologists!
92

Tobermory,

20/06/2008 18:15:54
39 Big Jock McDoc'

It's almost funny how the terrorist appeasers like Number 6 attack you for pointing out that the Al-Qaeda torture tactics are real and not just some university prank.

If they were sincere they would point out that what the US is doing is extremely mild compared to what thos animals are doing but they are not sincere, they only want more US & UK troops to die.
93

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 20/06/2008 18:21:53
P.K. I disagree agree with you on one point..

"The truth has greatly hurt and upset the Islamist terrorist apologists! "..It goes in one ear and out the other.
94

Dáithí,

San Jose 21/06/2008 00:46:13
#93 - Number 6

>"but if they could get away with it I doubt there is nothing you wouldn't do to these men."

Well, if we're speculating, I have the feeling that if you were in a position to defend something you and your comrades would employ far more extreme measures than any CIA agent has dreamed of:

- except you would not tolerate an open enough system where worldwide examination of your methods were possible.

The only difference is that you and your agents haven't been put to the test yet.

Or have they - and been thrown out?
95

P.K,

21/06/2008 16:19:07
Lynne

At least the truth has proved themselves to be hypocrites with double standards! The link has also shown to every one of us the true colour of these Jihadist savages and their dirty barbaric torture tactics, which the Islamist terrorist apologists would have tried so very hard to cover it up. Notice these apologists appeared so very upset at Big Jock's link that they jumped on him and desperately finding some excuses to defend their Jihadist buddies!!
96

Wayne,

Calabash 20/07/2008 15:11:27
Beheading,gutting,beating,shooting in the back of the head.These are all on the list of the animals we are dealing with!

 

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