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Russia and Georgia on brink of war



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Published Date: 09 August 2008
RUSSIA and Georgia were last night on the brink of all-out war after a long-standing dispute over a breakaway province erupted into violence.
Russian-backed South Ossetian separatists claimed 1,400 civilians had died, while Georgia accused Russia of inflicting heavy losses in bombing raids.

As the conflict escalated last night, a spokesman for Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said he was set to declare a state of emergency and impose martial law. The UN Security Council held two emergency meetings and the US called on Russia to halt aircraft and missile attacks and withdraw its combat forces from Georgian territory.

The White House said President George Bush discussed the situation with Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin while both leaders were in Beijing for the start of the Olympics.

Russia claims ten peacekeepers were killed and 30 wounded when their barracks were hit by Georgian shelling yesterday.

The separatist leader, Eduard Kokoity, claimed hundreds of civilians had been killed and witnesses said the South Ossetian provincial capital, Tskhinvali, was devastated.

In retaliation, Russia sent a column of tanks to the region and threatened to cut air links with Georgia from midnight last night. Georgia's pro-western president, Saakashvili, said in a television address last night that Russian bombing had killed about 30 Georgians, "mostly military men", but that Georgia's forces were in control of Tskhinvali.

Mr Saakashvili said the two countries were now at war.

He said: "We have Russian tanks moving in. We have continuous Russian bombardment since yesterday, specifically targeting the civilian population. Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory."

Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, who had fled with her family to Dzhava, a village near the border with Russia, said: "I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars.

"It's impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged."

Kakha Lomaia, the head of the Georgian Security Council, said it will withdraw 1,000 soldiers from Iraq to help fight off Russian forces.

The conflict followed Thursday's hostilities when Georgian forces and South Ossetian separatists exchanged heavy fire, which killed 12 people.

The conflict is believed to have been triggered by Georgia's recent efforts to gain membership of Nato. Yesterday saw the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won de facto independence in a war that ended in 1992, sparking fears of full-scale war in the region.

Last night a spokesman for the Foreign Office said: "We urge an immediate ceasefire in fighting in South Ossetia and a resumption of direct dialogue between the parties."

Nato, the European Union and the United States also called for an immediate end to fighting.

The Pentagon said it was monitoring events because more than 120 US defence personnel and contractors, including 35 civilians, are in the Tbilisi area to train Georgian forces for deployment in Iraq.

Georgia was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the break-up of the Soviet Union. A staunch US ally, it has angered Russia by seeking Nato membership – a bid Moscow regards as part of a western effort to weaken its influence in the region. The separatist administration in South Ossetia has been trying to gain formal independence since breaking away in a civil war in the 1990s.

South Ossetia has run its own affairs since fighting for independence from Georgia in 1991-92, in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union.

It has declared independence, though this has not been recognised by any other country.

Russia has troops in the region, on a peacekeeping mandate. But Moscow also supports the separatists.

Mr Saakashvili has vowed to bring South Ossetia and another breakaway region, Abkhazia, back under full Georgian control.

South Ossetians want to join their ethnic brethren in North Ossetia, an autonomous republic within the Russian Federation. Ethnic Georgians are a minority in South Ossetia.


ANALYSIS: A volatile combination at Caucasus crossroads

IT LIES at the heart of the Caucasus – an unstable region that hosts a pipeline pumping oil to Europe from Asia.

As well as emerging as a key energy transit route, South Ossetia is a zone where Russia and the West are vying for influence.

Georgia, formerly part of the Soviet Union, has angered Russia by allying itself with the West and pushing to join Nato.

The crisis is the first to confront the Russian president, Dmitry Medvedev, since he took office in May.

Defence analysts suggest that Georgia deliberately ambushed his tenure as worldwide attention was focused on the Olympic Games in Beijing.

Dr Jonathan Eyal, director of international studies at the Royal United Services Institute, told The Scotsman: "The so-called 'frozen' conflict is now really hotting up. There's no doubt the issue which brought this to a head was America's support for Georgia's membership of Nato. However, the Georgians have had their application postponed at the summit held in Romania in April because it is clear they are not in complete control of the territory.

"The Georgian president has tried to push the matter into a military solution of eliminating the biggest stumbling block to Nato membership.

"World attention is focused elsewhere with world leaders either in Beijing watching the opening ceremony of the Games or on holiday.

"The Georgina gamble was to overrun South Ossetia quickly so they could establish forces on the ground.

"Georgia fired the first shot but will claim that they were driven to it by the skirmishes that have been taking place on a daily basis over the past few weeks.

"And Russian aircraft and armoured vehicles have violated Georgian airspace for months. What happens next will depend on whether a ceasefire can be agreed between the two sides over the next 24 hours."


The full article contains 965 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 August 2008 12:54 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Georgia , Russia
 
1

Bend Over,

09/08/2008 01:22:34
NATO should be supporting the Ossetians in their bid for self determination, after all they supported Kosovo, somehow though I guess they will be on the side of Georgia.
2

mk-ultra,

09/08/2008 01:30:24
It's worth reading this article for a different perspective on what's going........

"DEBKAfile’s geopolitical experts note that on the surface level, the Russians are backing the separatists of S. Ossetia and neighboring Abkhazia as payback for the strengthening of American influence in tiny Georgia and its 4.5 million inhabitants. However, more immediately, the conflict has been sparked by the race for control over the pipelines carrying oil and gas out of the Caspian region."

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358
3

mk-ultra,

09/08/2008 01:38:40
and this......

"One thousand U.S. troops began a military training exercise in Georgia on Tuesday against a backdrop of growing friction between Georgia and neighboring Russia."
(MSNBC July 15th 2008)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25684774/
4

Amani_Bunduki,

Canberra 09/08/2008 04:00:12
Oh, happy days...
*sigh*
5

donald,

glasgow 09/08/2008 06:18:47
I first heard of this days ago, on a radio interview with a Chinese Elvis, who complained of the bias of the British media in not reporting this. It was completely lost in the trivia of the EBC interviewer
6

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 09/08/2008 07:05:09
Nothing changes. Russian bullies at work as usual, and ensuring the the Security Council of the UN can't come to an effective agreement to stop it.
7

yockel,

09/08/2008 07:57:11
#6 bring them on - It is not a case of could do something here. Who do you think is doing it? The US has been ratcheting it up in the area for quite a while now. A return to MAD is inevitable if these halfwits keep pushing.
8

Mcsnagpile,

09/08/2008 08:29:38
This episode demonstrates how weak and ineffectual the EEC would be in the face of Russia aggression in Europe,-- leaderless, rudderless. Perhaps Russia has taken one step back for two steps forward. Mr Bush has the Atlantic Ocean. The hydrocarbon pipeline is to Europe.

NATO is an American defence system. Would USA go to nuclear war in the defence of Europe??, UN??
9

gus1940,

Edinburgh 09/08/2008 08:32:03
More innocent people slaughtered as a result of the crazy foreign policy of The US.

If the US gave as much attention to sorting out the cesspit of corruption that is their own country as they do to interfering in other countries the world would be a better and safer place.
10

eric,

Lothian 09/08/2008 08:34:18
Does the USA never learn ,Defeated in Iraq and Afghanistan along with Britain oops sorry England,
Dont even think about it Bush ,This is one instant humiliation waiting you.
11

Ayegudyin,

Zurich 09/08/2008 09:04:16
"Russian-backed South Ossetian separatists claimed 1,400 civilians had died, while Georgia accused Russia of inflicting heavy losses in bombing raids."

this article has cleared a lot of things up for me (well done scotsman, for once...)

however, im confused as to who is being accused of these civilian deaths. Are they from georgias attempt at military control of the area or from the russian air strikes? the way CNN was putting it yesterday it seemed as though Russia had been bombing civilian targets in the area...
12

SteveON,

09/08/2008 09:33:32
The South Ossetians are claiming that Georgias Artillery barrage last night caused the 1400 casualties.
Georgia effectively carpet bombed the area using Multiple launch rocket launchers and are reported to have effectively destroyed the south ossetian capital of Tskhinvali.
13

Pilrig.,

Livingston 09/08/2008 09:38:27
Vlad Putin - a real-life nephew of his Uncle Joe. As is his Georgian counterpart.
14

Pilrig.,

Livingston 09/08/2008 09:39:31
18 - in Suffolk, I think.
15

Nevsky,

Moscow 09/08/2008 09:40:35
Let's get things in perspective here and i am no apologist for Russia but notice some of the usual ill-informed comments 'rules but not @ 9'.

Russia is virtually surrounded by NATO and it has gotton worse over the last few years. American troops on it's doorstep in Georgia with Ukraine, Poland and Belarus stepping up the pressure on Russia's borders through NATO (not forgtting the missile defence system on Russia's doorstep).

I wonder how America would react with Russian troops in Mexico and Canada. Russian missile detection systems being built in Cuba and Mexico and Canada and most South American countries joining a reformed 'Warsaw Pact'.

I have a feeling they would not be too happy..get the point?
16

invictager,

Kent 09/08/2008 09:40:36
#9
Did anyone not see this coming after the "West" criminally backed the Albanian mafia's land grab in Kosovo.
Who says the Ossetians have less right to rule themselves than Kosovans.
17

Pilrig.,

Livingston 09/08/2008 09:42:19
17 - of course they do, likewise the Tibetans despite what the broon-nosed Maoists on the Scotsman threids think.
Likewise the Chechens, although Vlad Stalin and his drunken boor of a predecessor, knocked that on the heid.
18

Pilrig.,

Livingston 09/08/2008 09:45:14
23 - the majority of the Kosovans wanted independence from Belgrade, that's democracy for ye, comrade !
19

invictager,

Kent 09/08/2008 09:51:02
Using that logic if enough Albanians moved to Edinburgh and outbred the Scots then they could attempt to secede Edinburgh from Scotland.

Fair? democratic?

Anyway Im pretty sure that the majority of Ossetians want to be Russian so what is your point as that is exactly what you say about about Kosovo.
20

Media 1,

cape town 09/08/2008 10:02:36
There has been two world wars in the modern era and countless thousands of wars before that. Some statisticians have the total count of human conflict close to 1 million wars in human history.
War is our thing, we like to fight it is part of our nature.
Witness the reaction of a 1 year old child who knows nothing about jealousy ans greed when another child takes their toy away. All hell breaks loose and the parents jump in saying "cmon babies you MUST share" Aye right, we dont know how to share!
So this war, which none of us on here understand is just another demonstration of human tendency.
21

gus1940,

Edinburgh 09/08/2008 10:10:46
#22

Point made perfectly.
22

Pipe smoker,

Montrose 09/08/2008 10:10:56
The attempted secession of Abkhazia and South Ossetia from Georgia should not be viewed as popular movements. In both cases, in the early 90s, ethnic Georgians made up a substantial minority of the population (43% in Abkhazia and around 33% in S.Ossetia)and the secessions have been convincingly analysed as the actions of strategically-embedded ethnic Abkhazian or Ossetian Communist Party apparatchiks keen to retain power in their autonomous regions. In the early 90s, only 17% of the population of Abkhazia was ethnic Abkhazian.The areas are part of historic Georgia, an ancient civilization in its own right long before before the Tsarist or Soviet periods. There has been extensive 'ethnic cleansing' of Georgians from these areas since secession but elements of the Georgian population stubbornly remain in their ancestral homes.
23

Pilrig.,

Livingston 09/08/2008 10:44:28
26 - not so much Albanians moving here as Poles. But Poles are allowed to live here under EU rules, and they can take part in the DEMOCRATIC process, whatever it's faults. Somehow I can't see an influx into Scotland going against the wishes of the indigenous majority.
Anyway, did the Albanians suddenly appear overnight in Kosovo ? Of course they haven't, in fact they've been the majority in Kosovo since the 19th century ! Long enough to become part of the democratic process I would reckon !
24

Pilrig.,

Livingston 09/08/2008 10:49:50
27 - as Nietzsche pointed out, "human, all too human".

This problem usually starts when someone wants power or attempts to run things.
25

Nellie,

Liverpool 09/08/2008 11:09:23
#22. Spot on. The long history of Russia being invaded by its neighbours is there to read, if anyone bothers to try to understand Russian foreign policy. Now, surrounded by NATO (which effectively means US) military, and seeing the US example in the World, especially at this time - not least in Georgia, little wonder Russia feels impelled to draw a line in the sand. Of course, it is incredibly tragic that innocent people are caught up and killed in these political manouvres, but is Russia any more guilty of this than the US in Iraq and Afghanistan, or for that matter, it's ally, Britain? I am anti-war and no fan of Russia, but for the US or UK to criticise them now is just the kettle calling the pot "black"
26

Nellie,

Liverpool 09/08/2008 11:11:22
#30 Hang on, isn't there a Scot working against the wishes of the indigenous people of England living in Downing Street? ;o)
27

Nellie,

Liverpool 09/08/2008 11:15:36
#31 True enough but it is also a problem when one country fears losing power (influence/territory/economic) sufficient to defend itself. In part, this is why the US covert foreign policy has been as it is since Roosevelt, and also what drove the raising of the Iron Curtain around the territory of Russia at its centre. It isn't always power for power's sake.
28

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 09/08/2008 11:42:56
#15

Wall the US even get the blame for this, you are a twisted sad little individual. by the wat the terorists are admiting defeat in |Iraq and most have moved through Iran thanks to salmonds mate to attack us in Afghanistan. Where we will beat them again,.
29

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 09/08/2008 11:44:31
#34

Poor Russians they were all scared by the big bad Western democracies, it takes very little for the dole cheque Socilaists to come out doesn't it.
30

Neil,

Glasgow 09/08/2008 11:45:32
Thanks MK #4. Let us hope that these 1,000 US troops mostly left the day after the 2 week exercise finished. Since Georgia's election was bought & paid for by the CIA & their armies are so closely linked it is virtually certain the US must have ok'ed this. The timing, when the Russian leaders were out of the country in Beijing suggests they hoped to move before the Russians could react.

A dangerous miscalculation - lets hope the US doesn't make it worse.
31

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 09/08/2008 11:50:36
#37

the CIA rule the world they have rigged elections in georgia and made the poor Russians invade, just like they provoked them for years.
32

Nellie,

Liverpool 09/08/2008 12:40:03
#15 Where do you get the idea "we" are winning in Afghanistan or, for that matter, in Iraq? Read the news papers, mate - try the New York Times or any of the sheets in the UK. Listen to the radio and TV. Listen to some of the interviews with senior and lower level soldiers. Thy say we are NOT beating the Taliban now or any time soon. And the insurgency in Iraq (Iraqis and against Iraqis and, in their view, against an occupying force in their country), this is not beaten either, and there is no end in sight for any victory.

#36 "Big bad democracies" is just about right, mate! Are you trying to tell me that US foreign policy is about promoting democracy? Or that the UKs is as the USA's little brother? I could list you an armful of examples showing the democracies can be bad in a big way but here's just one example: Nicaragua - US poured in funding to the Contra, who were seeking to overthrow the democratically elected Government! Yes, US money to overthrow a democratically elected government. You want more? I got them. Just ask.

(By the way, don't jump to conclusions about my politics. Not that it's any of your business but I've never voted Socialist in my life. And it would be pretty difficult vote that now anyway, given "New Labour" is a Tory government in a thinly veiled disguise. Why, Edward Heath was more of a "socialist" when he was PM of a Tory government than this Brown-led "New Labour" government!)
33

Nellie,

Liverpool 09/08/2008 12:43:27
#36 PS, I'm not on the dole, either. Try arguing with FACTS instead of inventing them about the subject or me.
34

Nellie,

Liverpool 09/08/2008 12:45:22
#21 Pilrig - if you can see turkey's you're probably in Suffolk.
35

westview,

Get the food parcels ready. 09/08/2008 12:54:17
"26", not Albanians or Poles. Folk from England?
36

Publius,

London 09/08/2008 14:03:36
Key point in this conflict is the pipeline that crosses Georgia carrying oil and gas from Kazakhstan to Turkey's Mediterranean coast and thence by tanker to western Europe. It is the only pipeline from central Asia that does not cross Russian territory. Russia wants to grab control of the pipeline to hold the west to ransom.
37

Publius,

London 09/08/2008 14:08:19
#22 Nevsky; #32 Nellie

I think you're both mistaken. The Russian leadership refuses to accept that the days of empire are over. Their policy is to make their neighbours conform to their wishes.
The Russians should reconcile themselves to the end of empire. The other European states (Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Turkey) have all had to come to terms with the end of empire. It's time Russia did too.
38

Vasya,

09/08/2008 14:32:58
Guys... just take a look at what happened in last two days. Georgia say cease fire about 21.00 7 Aug> People in Osetia believe and go bed>23.00 Georgia attck the capital from all possible weapon (rocket and regular artillery, tanks air strikes) 0 that is why so many osetian civil casualties> after the 5 hours non stop heavy bombing as preparation georgians troops start storming the city of Tshinval> at 10.00 75% of the city in their hands> about 11.00 Russia move more peacekeeping forces in the region and start blocking the attcking and bombing georgians. A little bit longer delay with Russian help and South Osetia would not exist any longer - main goal of georgians making uninational state similar as its is in Israel.
After all these events Georgia has no chances to get the terrory back ever. Everybody understand it. That's why georgians are so stubborn in attacking even now.
And please stop thinking about russian emperial ambitions))) It is not even funny any longer.
39

Beachcomber,

Edinburgh 09/08/2008 14:59:17
I just received the following information from a cousin in the USA, this is terrifying

http://europebusines.blogspot.com/2008/08/massive-us-naval-armada-heads-for-iran.html
40

Neil,

Glasgow 09/08/2008 15:02:36
art of the point about an empire is that the population don't want, or at least didn't choose to have you there. On that basisot ain't the russians doing the imperialism.

Publius' point #43 about the pipeline is interesting. Few things are easier to destroy than oil pipelines as Iraquis & Biafrans demonstrate repeatedly. The Russian air force could put it out of action in minutes. Perhaps Russia has told America they won't touch it so long as they don't intervene.

It would be a cynical deal but I would much prefer it to a bigger war.
41

Rob Burr,

The Point 09/08/2008 15:52:32
This is a russian oil grab that has nothing to do with the us. It will help bolster russias image as a military force and once again show that europe has no testlcies and would rather blame the us or the cia. Smart Czecks have a good case for defensive missles.
42

Neil,

Glasgow 09/08/2008 16:46:22
There is no oil in South Ossetia. There are, or recently have been 1,000 US soldiers in Georgia.

I wonder how the US would react to having Russian soldiers in your Georgia & watching the "Georgian" army shelling black (or white depending on who was in charge) townships to ethnicly cleanse the population & drive thousands of refugees over the border.

Just a guess but I think you wouldn't like it much.

The Russians do not forget the genocide which the testicularly endowed American government organised in Krajina & the tactics look the same here.
43

Rob Burr,

The Point 09/08/2008 16:59:38
You should learn from reading the article that it is control of an oil pipeline that is in georgia and the goal of the russian government. A country can control oil by controlling the pipelines that deliver it. Imperialism often claims that it is liberating people who want their assistance. Where will russia invade next to liberate and who has other pipelines, the ukraine?
44

LillyAugusta,

Belgrade,Serbia 09/08/2008 17:01:21
We said that Kosovo shouldn't be recognized,that it will cause problems around the world...Now,Pandora's box is open...I fully support Russia.Russia is only protecting its people.Georgia is ruled by US just like entire Europe and I have no respect for that!
45

Pilrig,

Livingston 09/08/2008 17:44:21
41 - never had the pleasure of setting foot in that county I'm afraid.
46

Pilrig,

Livingston 09/08/2008 17:47:46
51 - of course the wishes of the bulk of the Kosovan population doesn't matter ? That sort of 'democracy' used to exist in South Africa.
47

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 09/08/2008 18:32:32
All I want to know is why the McCanns are still allowed to look after young children after undeniably neglecting their daughter in a strange place?
48

Neil,

Glasgow 09/08/2008 18:52:11
Pilrig since the NATO armed KLA drug lords & pimps killed as many anti-Nazi Albanians as they did Serbs it seems improbable that there was real enthusiasm for this alleged liberation. I presume you are equally public in calling for the wishes of the Republica Srpska population to be allowed to hold sway. Also that of San Deigo & Bradford. Fortunately the people of Krajina present no such ethical issuesince the obscene Nazi organlegging filth running the NATO countries managed to achieve their genocide.

Something they have clearly also tried, but with less success, in South Ossetia.
49

imp artial,

09/08/2008 20:51:19
Sack_and_ash_Willie seems to have been trained and installed by the yankee military. He's just doing what he's told using CNN and BBC as willing mouthpieces. The Ossetians voted overwhelmingly for independence a short time ago. Shame on those who will lead us into yet another conflict because they cant think for themselves. The BBC in in this, and its negative China olympics reporting, just embarrassing. They and CNN should run a permanent banner saing "we are the mouthpiece of the neo-cons, we turn both cheeks, and thank them for their penetration"
50

Carolyn 1,

09/08/2008 21:03:35
Russia doesn't like surrendering territory which they see as belonging to Russia. Once you belong part and parcel to Russia, according to Putinism, you always belong to Russia.

Westerners will propragandize its about Muslims killing Christians, and Christians wanting to kill Muslims.
To some extent that may be true, but Putin and the various Russian surrogates have no regard for ethnicity or religion, Christians or Muslims.

The 1,500 people Russia already killed was not about religion, or about ethnicity, although the Russians may leverage it as a 'tool in the war chest'. It's about the money and the power.

The core truth is that Russia will not forfeit the land because they will never forfeit control of the oil and gas pipelines. And, They will not forfeit the 'pipeline' that traffics weapons and nuclear neccessities to its latest co-conspirator- Iran.


Ironically, Europe can not fight back because it needs the gas and oil to sustain its chosen lifestyle, and so Russia pretty much has free reign to do as it damnwell pleases.

The UN is rendered useless as usual.

Gas and oil has made Russia and Iran world powers- something they have wanted for centuries, and now have attained by natural resources, not ingenuity.
51

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 09/08/2008 21:04:02
The South Ossetians must be given a referendum. The only reason for a war is because we have the usual mental omega minuses in power; feeble-minded twerps who instinctively resort to the caveman's club because cool, calm discussions quickly exhaust their mental capacity. Why do humans have such a penchant for hoisting idiots uop into high office?
52

indune1,

Canada 09/08/2008 21:25:13


Was that Iain Thom I saw climbing a tower in Red Square to unfurl a banner which read: "One World. One Dream. Free South Ossetia"?.
53

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 09/08/2008 21:43:10
Listening to the USA backed Geogia stooge of a Prime Minister being interviewed when this event broke as news on BBC when the brain damaged Bush was about to leave the opening ceremony, he brazenly admitted his troops had made an unprovoked attack on the breakaway territory and was determined to successfuly finish the job he had ordered to begin. Could there have been collusion between the pro - Western stooge and the mighty God - Fearing USA, Broonie and some off the major NATO countries?
Was it sheer concidence that some off these prominent players were conveniently absent?
54

indune1,

Canada 09/08/2008 21:44:50

57 - Carolyn - Iran is not a world power. It is a regional power.

1,500 civilians killed? Says who? The Russian-backed South Ossetian separatists that's who. Hardly, an objective source.

Carolyn - the compulsive editor in me begs to point out that the correct expression is "free rein" vice "free reign". Though you may indeed have a point in that Putin has a master plan for a "free reign" over Europe.
55

indune1,

Canada 09/08/2008 21:48:27

Clearly the armchair spies, diplomats, strategists and South Ossetia experts have come out in force as evidenced in posting #60.
56

Carolyn 1,

09/08/2008 23:13:04
#61 indune1

Point taken, but as a compulsive editor I chose the correct word.

A reign is a period of time in reference to a government, a ruler or a period of history. A reign of terror, for example.

As for the 1,500 killed, are you suggesting the deaths are invented? Who knows. Hospitals are putting up lists. We won't see how bad it is, or isn't, until the Red Cross or whoever gets in there sets up medical assistance and makes reports.

As for Iran, Obama, the Chosen One, also thinks Iran is unimportant. At the hip, are you?
Regardless of what you think or Obama thinks, Iran IS a world power player. They determine/control the world's economy, the world politics and policy at this point.
If not, why is the EU, Israel and the US cowering at every threat they make?

57

indune1,

Canada 09/08/2008 23:47:54

Oh dear.

1 - no, sorry your use of the word "reign" is out of context and incorrect ( sound of gong!).

2. As to casualties, my point was that you were only sourcing the media which was only quoting one of the combatant sides as to the numbers. Single sourcing is poor, if not irresponsible journalism.

3. Please pay attention next time in class. Iran is not a world power. I don't know how you, yourself, define such a status, but clearly you were asleep in that lecture.

Israel fears Iran but does not cower.

Mark my words. If Iran becomes militarily aggressive with its nuclear program, Israel will take it out and defy any negative opinion.

You ask: "If not, why is the EU, Israel and the US cowering at every threat they make?

Yes, Iran has made threats to wipe the Jews and the Israel "off the map" but so did Yassir Arrafat. Such threats do not a world power make.

Please educate us why you consider Iran to be a "world power".

Do they have the military forces to project such a power?

Do they have the influence and support within powerful international fora?

Do they have the collective backing of the Islamic world?

Do their oil revenues allow them to dominate OPEC policies?

Illuminate us.





58

Carolyn 1,

10/08/2008 00:52:15
Oh dear,
another elitist snob; just one of many who can't debate and chooses instead to play King of the Snark Mountain.

COWER: - show submission or fear
cow·er (kour)
intr.v. cow·ered, cow·er·ing, cow·ers
To cringe in fear.


if the Israelis do not cower under the threats, please explain why the children require help to deal with the bombings and threats of death? Medical teams now agree that these kids are suffering from long term PSD. I think any forensic psychiatrist in the world would agree that the kids cringe in fear of death, cowering.

As for your volley, I already gave that lecture. Many times. And, rendering yourself inferior, you lost the debate when you started with the two words, Oh dear. (...Because words do matter.)
59

indune1,

Canada 10/08/2008 01:55:13

Ah, now we see the true colours of your outlook.

You do not choose to address my challenges.

You rather, not surprisngly, choose to focus on the emotional and unsubsantiated.

For example : You said," if the Israelis do not cower under the threats, please explain why the children require help to deal with the bombings and threats of death? Medical teams now agree that these kids are suffering from long term PSD. I think any forensic psychiatrist in the world would agree that the kids cringe in fear of death, cowering."

I do not disagree that children, whatever nationality, cower when they become involved directly in war.

However, you twist the context. We were talking about nations.

Israel has never cowered.

The United States has never cowered.

Regardless of their policies and actions, rightly or wrongly, one could could never say they have cowered.


Now, please do not attempt to evade. Address my previous challenges.

And by the way, I have not been disrepectful in my exchanges.

You however, chose to call me an elitist snob.

You have not demonstrated why I am so. Therefore, any objective reader could only conclude that you have reverted to the emotional and subjective - hardly a convincing or persuasive line of argumentation.




60

57Nomad,

california 10/08/2008 02:51:51
#13 McS

McS said:

"NATO is an American defence system. Would USA go to nuclear war in the defence of Europe??, UN??"

NATO is an American defence system? I think that would come as news to the other members of NATO. Your other two questions are interesting.

Would the US go to nuclear war in the defense of Europe. No one can predict the future, but if the past is any indicator it should be looked at. The US, at a stupendous cost to the American taxpayers stationed 300,000 troops in Europe for 50 years to check the Soviets. When the Soviet Union deployed SS-20 IRB's in the western Soviet Union, and these were very advanced, mobile, accurate missiles, and aimed the at the cities of Europe in the the 80's, the US deployed even better, Pershing solid fuel mobile IRBM's to counter them. That deployment, by the way, encouraged the Soviets to scrap their SS-20's. So you, McS may not believe that we would go to the nukes to defend Europe, but I can tell you this, the Russians sure as hell believed it.

Going to war for the UN? Remember the Korean War?? However, those days are over. I wonder, how does one go to war for the UN? Would someone have to attack the UN building? Im not so sure it's possible to 'go to war for the UN,' but if it was any President who tried would most likely be impeached, tried, and convicted.

61

indune1,

Canada 10/08/2008 03:30:07
67 - Healeys rule!
62

indune1,

Canada 10/08/2008 03:36:55

65 - Carolyn - BTW- the expression - "Oh Dear", is not gender specific, so please don't be so sensitive.

So? You have either chosen to ignore my challenges or gone to your ill-educated bed (which would be a most uncomfortable repost for the most informd).
63

57Nomad,

10/08/2008 04:06:52
#15eric

"Does the USA never learn ,Defeated in Iraq and Afghanistan along with Britain oops sorry England,
Dont even think about it Bush ,This is one instant humiliation waiting you."

I read this article several times and the US was mentioned only peripherally. Maybe you could elaborate a little because your comments and the article don't seem to match.

Also, just for grins, you might want to catch up on current events. Here ya go:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121797955889015047.html?mod=opinion_main_review_and_outlooks

and:

http://www.galesburg.com/news/x1470913863/Analysis-U-S-now-winning-Iraq-war-that-seemed-lost

Ya gotta keep up on these things.
64

57Nomad,

california 10/08/2008 04:21:03
#60 wattie

wattie said:

"he brazenly admitted his troops had made an unprovoked attack on the breakaway territory and was determined to successfuly finish the job he had ordered to begin."

There are those who would consider that a territory breaking away as sufficient provocation to act. I don't know a thing about it but open revolution is usually reacted to by one means or another. Unprovoked? I don't know.
65

Vasya,

10/08/2008 09:43:23
to Nomad... I really like your "I don't know a thing about it but". Americans have a trend to know nothing about subject they write about or bomb. Action fisrt thinking later. The level of thinking on the level of first multicellular organisms in evolution the. Read something more than an article in paper which can be your brain wash first and may be... may be instaed of hate and disgusting US will cause other feeling in the world.
66

Vasya,

10/08/2008 13:54:39
Facts of brain washing... Here western people must see"poor geogian victims". All was done with the same people - just a bit of attention. They even dress-undrees them - great work was done for brain wash in Ukrain where is another wetsrn puppet and for you my western friends (REUTERS).
http://k.img.com.ua/img/gallery/756/8fbdf5...d32f0d5392a.jpg

http://k.img.com.ua/img/gallery/756/3150ab...036c3f46b1c.jpg

http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d...UKOP_0_PICTURE7

No pictures from Osetia at all. Why? Western media do not have correspondents there - too dangerous and truth is too obviuos. Western demaocratic and bla-bla puppet Saakashvili did national GENOCIDE in the territory they call "part of Georgia". No difference with Polpot in Cambodia. This probably will explain you why 34000 osetian refugies mostly fro Tshinval went under fire 60 rilimeters to Russia and NONE to Georgia which is 10 kilometers away from Tshinval.
67

Vasya,

10/08/2008 15:15:21
http://k.img.com.ua/img/gallery/756/3150ab36819655b61a5a4036c3f46b1c.jpg

http://k.img.com.ua/img/gallery/756/8fbdf560b7f5dfb5d1305d32f0d5392a.jpg

http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20080809&t=2&i=5508259&w=&r=2008-08-09T135819Z_01_L7680404_RTRUKOP_0_PICTURE7

God sake, this is UNBELIEVABL... The corp is wounded this time in BBC report...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVrygbUzazA
68

Carolyn 1,

10/08/2008 22:09:22
The conflict has broad reaching implications:

When the Soviet Union broke into Russia and the satelite states, Russia skillfully carved the regions into states comprised of opposing ethnicities rather than the same. Was it done purposefully to cause problems? I have no doubt of it.
This is good for Father Russia.

Georgia has 2000 troops in Iraq, which is the third largest contigency. They could be redirected from Iraq and sent home to Georgia. This is good for Iran.

Russia attempted to bomb the strategic pipeline- but the inferior Russian weapons missed the targets. If successful it would disrupt oil suppplies in the region. A disruption in oil and gas supplies is also good for Iran and Russia.

The US faces a dilemna:
The US, with the EU, is working hard to diplomatically stand down Iran and its nuclear build-up. But, to do so, we need Russia's help.
On the other hand, Georgia has a been a staunch ally to the US.
If Russia doesn't honor the cease fire, Bush will have to choose between backing a new elected and emerging democracy, which is his hope and legacy for the world, and toeing a dangerous line to maintain relations with Russia. Russia is the big elephant in the arena with commanding control of the stage.

Russia is Paternal, and more than anything, wants the near abroad countries back in the fold. Working with NATO to resolve this land grab will irritate Russia even more.

Irritate Russia, and Iran gets the nuclear bomb.
69

Carolyn 1,

10/08/2008 22:26:59
#69 indune

Beds are not educated- ill or otherwise.
Gong One.

I don't know what a repost is in reference to a bed. Perhaps the Elitist Great One meant to say repose.

That's Gong Two.

Oh dear, as you use it, is a term of condenscension when used on a comment blog.
That makes Gong Three.







70

Vasya,

Utrecht 10/08/2008 23:04:26
Dear Caroline... You wull be surprised by the fact that Russia at this particular moment covers 92% of Georgia electricity demand and about 80% of food. In real war it would be stopped as you understand. Russia does peacekeeping action as it has sucessfully done for 15 years in that region.
If Russia wanted destroy the pipeline it would be destroyed) Personaly I have no doubt about that. And please do not belive the pictures of "airstricked houses" with only roof burning... after airstrike civilian houses look like a pile of briks, and do not believe when you are shown a single hole in the soil next to the pipe line. Russia two days controls more or less the sky above Georgia so if the pipeline was the strategic target it would be destroyed))) So simple like that. The hole was made by georgians for western public opinion - and it works - you really swalowed this. The facts of westernbrain washing see above.
Russia is just a poor country surrounded by idiots. What did Carl XII Swedish, Napoleon, Hitler wanted in Russia - explain me... We have bears drinking vodka with balalycas on our streets, wild paternalistic barbarians. What is so attractive in Russia that every maniac after suppressing Europe goes to Russia and find his grave there??? Georgian as well as osetians as christians in XVIII century were close to the extinction being between Persia and Ottoman Empire and survived only because russian intervention. There are more than 100 different archaic nations (some with population about 1000 people) that survived in the "jail of nations" (Russian Empire and USSR later). And even under pressure from Persia and Ottoman Empire they permanently fought with each other. Permanent war of all against all. That started oimm9idiatly after USSR weakness. Armenia-Azerbaidzhan, Georgia inside against Abkhazia and South Osetia, Chechnya against Degestan, Ingushetia against Northern Osetia and so on and so on. Do you follow me in this list?
That is just for your deeper under
71

Carolyn 1,

10/08/2008 23:41:21
Vasya,Utrecht

I don't know if you're Dutch or Russian, or how you know Georgia, but I understand Russia and its history more than you might think.

I have long admired Russian art, theatre, literature, architecture, etc. I probably know more Russian history than I do European!
As for policy, in my opinion, I think Russia wants very much to be admired by the world, and lacking the admiration, turns to saber rattling trying to get attention, not unlike a child trying to get attention.

Russia has never really received the recognition for the things it did do great. And there are/were many. It seems to only be scolded for the bad.

Catherine the Great left a wonderful legacy for Russia, but The Big Bear seems to have lost the passion to be part of Europe and wants instead to control it.
Not a good thing and not admirable.
72

indune1,

Canada 10/08/2008 23:52:04

78 - Carolyn 1- you are obviously not an English major.

You still haven't responded to any of my questions or challeges.

Pity. I thought we might all learn from your knowledge - which by your claims, is to be quite extensive.

 

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