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Published Date: 08 May 2009
ALMOST a year to the day after the massive Sichuan earthquake levelled hundreds of schools, sparking allegations of corruption and shoddy construction, China yesterday gave its first official tally of the numbers of students dead or missing: 5,335.
The government began its count hours after the magnitude-7.9 tremor razed huge portions of the south-western province on 12 May, 2008, but it has refused until now to say how many students were among the nearly 90,000 people killed or missing. Anoth
er five million were made homeless.

Thousands of classrooms collapsed while buildings around them remained intact. It has become a politically charged issue and an enduring source of bitterness for parents trying to find answers. Parents say the schools crumbled so easily because corruption and mismanagement led to slipshod construction and weak buildings that were not up to code. Some say materials meant for school construction projects were sold on the side by contractors for personal gain.

So far no-one has been held responsible or punished.

Officials, however, blame the sheer power of the quake and have said confirming the names of the students was a complicated process.

"According to our investigations and samples we have taken, we have not found any case of buildings that collapsed in the earthquake zone mainly because of construction quality," Yang Hongbo, head of Sichuan's construction department, was quoted on a website run by the provincial government.

Grieving parents were sceptical of the toll.

"Announcing the numbers won't bring us any consolation," said Liu Xiaobin, whose 11-year-old son was killed when the three-story Fuxin No 2 Primary School sank into the ground and the rest of the neighbourhood remained standing. "We want the government to investigate the situation."

Liu and other parents have petitioned and protested, only to be detained or warned against speaking out. Activists have been harassed or taken away by police.

Ai Weiwei, an avant-garde artist and high-profile critic of Beijing's policies, said yesterday's announcement appeared to show that the "pressure of the common people, pressure from the media" had made some difference. But he said it was still an empty gesture.

"It didn't give any names or any other information on where they died, which schools or which classes they were in," Ai said. "This is nonsense."

In his blog, Ai has confirmed almost 5,000 student names and estimates that the toll could reach 8,000. At least 20 of his helpers have been detained by local authorities, he said.

Tan Zuoren, another activist who conducted his own investigation into 64 schools in the quake zone, estimated that more than 5,600 students died or were missing. Tan, who has been detained on suspicion of subversion, said that number was incomplete.

Liu Xiaoying, whose 12-year-old daughter was also killed in the Fuxin No 2 School, said she is sure that the number of dead children is much higher.

"I hope the investigation will continue and that the people responsible will be seriously punished," said Liu, who is under tight surveillance after travelling to Beijing twice to petition the central government.





The full article contains 527 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 07 May 2009 9:42 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Tatties ower the side,

Johannesburg 08/05/2009 05:19:39
In a culture devoid of integrity, why would you expect the Government to tell the truth?
2

Mashimaro,

china 08/05/2009 06:30:32
The western media always makes me smile when they say things like 80,000 dead or missing. Surely we can sorta guess that those 80,000 are dead. It's not like they're hiding out in a secret camp somewhere in their tens of thousand.
3

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 08/05/2009 09:45:52
#2 Mashimaro - If the Western media makes you smile, you must be laughing your a*se off at the official tally of 5,335.
Better to release this fairy story than reveal the true figures with all those inconvenient questions as to why so many dies.
As was the case with the Soviet Union, the real truth will likely only be revealed when the empire crumbles.


4

Mashimaro,

China 08/05/2009 10:53:27
#3 I'll stop you now so that you don't make a complete fool of yourself. I lost family in the quake. I covered it as a journalist.
I am fully aware of what is at stake. The government has no reason to lie. five thousand children, eight thousand children, it really doesn't make any pr difference now does it?
5

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 08/05/2009 11:32:16
#4 Mashimaro - You will not stop me at all - there are no Commissars here to censor me. A "journalist" in a totalitarian state is little more than a propagandist for the state which is why you support your governments attempt to underplay the death toll as well as plying the "sympathy card" (Communists in Germany similarly have no shame when it comes to pushing their agenda).
5,000, 8,000, 20,000 does make a hell of a difference to those who dies and were bereaved and only the state and its lackies have an interest in minimising the death toll.
6

Mashimaro,

China 08/05/2009 12:43:42
#5 I'm not a state journalist.
And I can tell you first hand that losing someone doesn't make a jot of difference whether 500 or 5000 other people are lost. They die just the same. 80,000 is the death toll. You could argue that it is actualy 80,224 and call the government a liar. Children died, the schools fell down as did so many other buildings.
Mothers, fathers, old folk... tens of thousands more died. But people want to highlight children because it gives their anti-China agenda a push. We suffered as a nation. We survived as a nation. We are rebuilding as a nation. There are stories of heroism from my people that make me proud to be Chinese. I am intensely grateful that my government was able to respond the way that it did, that the PLA soliders were such unflinching champions.
Personally I'm jaded and sick and tired of people who want to use this as an excuse to break China. Have a little respect for our feelings.
People like you always remind me of a painting I once saw of a battle where a man was holding the foot of his horse by lamp light, cursing because there was no blacksmith to remove the nail in the horse's shoe when all around him, in the dark lay the dead and shattered and in fact, if you look closely into the gloom you can see that his horse is dead too.
Don't scream about the nail in the horse's shoe.
And funny you should mention "commissars" who silence people. In fact it is Scotland and this very website who silences people from China... Ironical, neh?
7

Let's have the truth,

Australia 08/05/2009 12:59:19
#5

"(Communists in Germany similarly have no shame when it comes to pushing their agenda)".

You must be one of the most naive posters here! It would pay you to study the Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney agendas running up to the invasion of Iraq, the false reason for the invasion of Viet Nam where more than 3,000,000 Vietnamese were slaughtered etc. etc. etc.
8

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08/05/2009 15:41:46
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9

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 08/05/2009 15:57:47
#2 - I think the western journalists use 'missing' in the sense of 'not accounted for'.

Otherwise I admire your robust defence of your country against the quasi-Jesuitical anti-communism your comments are subjected to, almost by instinct it seems.
10

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08/05/2009 16:03:16
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11

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08/05/2009 16:27:09
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12

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 08/05/2009 17:12:34
#6 Mashimaro - In a totalitarian state, all journalists are de facto state journalists.
There is no "anti-China" agenda on my part as i have nothing against the Chinese per se but I do despise Communism in all its forms. The DDR was a corrupt house of cards that chose to show only its "happy, shiny" side whilst its people were enslaved and oppressed. The PRC is likely the same if not worse than the DDR but on a grander scale but we will not know the full extent of the depths to which it has sunk until the rotten pile crumbles.
The Chinese should be asking themselves why so many died and sycophants who sign the praises of the government of the day and there minions in the PLA bleating on about respect are the enemy of truth and freedom.
As I said, save your soap box speeches for the comrades - this cr*p cuts no ice with me. If you are jaded and sick then push off, no one is forcing you to spout your guff in the "Western" press. Since you seem to post here with ease on a daily basis then your claim that this website silences people from China is patently not true. Another Communist lie to add to the collection.
13

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 08/05/2009 17:16:01
#7 Let's have the truth,Australia - Only an idiot would suggest that Communists have the monopoly on shameless lies and hypocracy, capitalist warmongers have there own agendas but this does not mean that Communism is not also rotten to the core.
14

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 08/05/2009 17:21:18
#11 China is number ONE (for dead dogs on a bun?) - Can't think why you keep getting banned. Could it be that your posts are a tad insulting? Most sites would not even allow you to spot this bile in the first place as the comments are moderated.
At least have a bash at sticking to the terms and conditions of the site, then you won't get banned and will have nothing to moan about. Also people might even pay head to your point (assuming you have one).
15

Stefan,

NYC 08/05/2009 18:27:02
This is a really strange article. What's the point of it anyway? Does the percentage of dead being children, whether higher or lower, make it more or less of a tragedy? Is it likely that there was shoddy construction? Sure. Rural and poor areas always get the shaft when it comes to natural disasters partly because they can't afford good construction. That's the unfortunate truth. In a public works arena, China's growing too fast and is too big to properly implement public building standards in these more remote areas. I DON'T know, but I bet the schoools in Beijing have a different quality than the ones in question. I'm very certain that my kids have far better and safer facilities than poor kids in the Bronx. Is China unusual? No. In the US, anytime a natural disaster kills folks, you can bet it's in lower income areas. San Fran and LA earth quakes being major exceptions. But when you look at tornadoes, hurricanes, et al. It's always the trailer parks getting the beating.
16

Mashimaro,

China 09/05/2009 02:23:19
#12 "Mashimaro - In a totalitarian state, all journalists are de facto state journalists."
Then you show me you know nothing about China. Come live here for a while and you'll see. Until you do know more, you're just a frog in a well.
17

Mashimaro,

China 09/05/2009 02:33:45
#12 Ask anyone here about Postmark, and they will tell you this man who lives in China has in fact been banned. You will see him return over the weekends when there is no staff to monitor his postings but by Mondays the "sanitised" version of the scotsman will be here for all to see. Obviously you have not been around long enough to know what goes on here.
Your anti-communist agenda is also patently obvious. Possibly because you did not benefit from this way of government but in turn became the US's bitch after WWII, bought and paid for, no doubt.
I, on the other hand, am extremely grateful for communism and for what it has done for China. I know it is not perfect. But I can understand why Tiernaman happened, why it had to happen. I can understand why such a clampdown in Tibet when the CIA backed insurgents require it.
Sorry if that bothers you, old chap. I believe in a country that looks after its weak and its young and old. I prefer to have moral standards than "the buck is all".
And every time I come across people writing BS about China I will comment. You can have me banned too if you like.
18

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09/05/2009 03:05:22
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19

Private Investigator,

09/05/2009 03:11:52
Arminius is either Dragonhead or James Donald! It doesn't really matter though considering both posters have always been ill informed.
20

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09/05/2009 03:24:38
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21

Mashimaro,

China 09/05/2009 05:44:12
I really get annoyed when people say bad things about communism. They seem to expect that once a country becomes communist it will no longer have any problems. Yet they don't seem to mind if its capitalist and has the same problems. They expected that because China becomes communist there will be no more disease and famine and poverty and natural disasters or corruption for that matter. Yet they never breathe a word against places like the Philippines or India where you have all that going on but they are capitalist.
22

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 09/05/2009 08:03:11
#16 Mashimaro,China - I have seen enough of totalitarian states to know what they are like and have no wish to visit another. Your protestations notwithstanding, any totalitarian state exercises tight control over the media.
23

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 09/05/2009 08:21:02
#17 Mashimaro - Seems to me that this Postmark 55 (no relation to Britvic 55 I take it) is simply a troll who aims to have himself excluded from the site simply to make a point. Yet here he still is, freely posting in the Western media he so clearly despises.
You are half right (fits in nicely with your tendency for half-truths) in that I am anti-Communist. I have seen this evil ideology ravage much of my continent and we have still not recovered from trying to drag the countries that suffered 40+ years of Communist mismanagement, corruption and oppression out of the dark ages.
I am sure that the party faithful in the DDR were extremely grateful for their priveliged positions and understood why the tanks had to roll in 1953, 1956 and 1968. It must have been very confusing for them when the tanks did not roll in 1989.
What you believe or post here is of no consequence to me and I have no power or desire to see you "banned". I will, however, attack those who support totalitarian government no matter if they are jaded and sick.
24

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 09/05/2009 08:30:51
#18 Rabbit Dance - I think you have a few anger issues, sunshine on top of your deluded support for a discredited ideology. You will not be able to ask any of the 100 million or so killed by the Communists what they think of your politics but there are plenty in Eastern Europe who lived through this nightmare no ask. I think you will find few takers for flying any Communist flag.
Most other media sites have multiple ID trolls like yourself who get their jollies trying to disrupt the thread. The pattern is familiar -
Just trying to work out what your angle is - no doubt it will be an obtuse angle. Of course you could simply be a nutter.
25

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 09/05/2009 08:37:35
#21 Mashimaro - Sick, jaded and now annoyed. Maybe you should give up this site for the sake of your health.
People say bad things about communism because it is a murderous ideology which has killed and enslaved millions. To despise this ideology and its deluted supporters does not imply unquestioning support for other systems of government but Communism does have a few problems that most democracies don't. Where to site the slaave labour camps; how to kill the prisoners and where to put the bodies; how to controll access to the free press and internet etc...etc....Must be a bit of a nightmare so no wonder you are annoyed, sick, jaded usw......
26

,

09/05/2009 09:25:36
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27

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09/05/2009 09:39:43
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28

Mashimaro,

China 09/05/2009 14:34:04
#25 I'd strongly suggest you do some reading. Perhaps you would like to start with uh... hmmm history. You might want to take in Winston Churchill's promise to "strangle communism at birth" for no other reason than it didn't really get on with his rich mates. With that in mind, take a look at what happened in Russia, Cuba, China, Vietnam and Korea and you will see the hand of western capitalists cat pawing.
I strongly suggest you read William Blum's writings on Cuba.
I know the press in China is not free. I know there a myriad problems in China but do not assume western propaganda rubbish as fact. Let's be honest about what happened in Europe after WWII... the US poured money into the non communist areas because it was terrified the communists would get into power. In those countries like Japan and Italy where if was very likely the communsits would get into power they ran extensive propaganda campaigns, resorted to blackmail, murder, incaceration, torture to promote the cause of capitalism and the American empire.
Yeh... just... go read
29

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09/05/2009 15:25:59
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30

Arminius,

Detmold in dem Teutoburger Wald 09/05/2009 18:20:52
#26 Rabbit Dance - Perhaps you are the duty nutter on this site but you definitely have a few issues that need to be addressed by someone more qualified than me. They do sell prozac in China don't they?
31

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 09/05/2009 18:36:26
#28 Mashimaro - I have a personal library of over 1,000 books mostly on history so I need no tips from a Communistic journalist. Same old mince that the nasty western capitalists attack the noble Communists states - it works both ways matey. Communists have tried to impose their system of government on others by fair means but mostly foul almost since day one. What was that natty Comintern catch phrase "by all available means, including armed force, for the overthrow of the international bourgeoisie and for the creation of an international Soviet republic as a transition stage to the complete abolition of the State". Wonder why there were so many keen to "strangle communism at birth".
I have Blum's book "Rogue State" in my library and have read it with the full knowledge of his background and prejudices. Whilst I am not a fan of US policy (or the USA in general), I do not support the granting of freedom to destroy freedom. That is why western democracies have to take extreme measures as was the case here during the murderous reign of terror of the Rote Armee Fraktion.
32

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 09/05/2009 18:57:23
#28 Mashimaro - The only country in Europe post WW2 where the Communists had a realistic chance of obtaining power without the imposition by the Red Army was Italy. Japan had a tiny Communist Party which was only legalised after the country was occupied by the Allies with very little in the way of popular support.
The Italian Communist Party did well in Italy post war mainly because of the 20+ years of fascism which ended in the catastrophy of defeat. There was little sympathy in the post war period for the thousands of fascists and fellow travellers murdered by the Communists after they had surrendered but when the Red Army brutally crushed the uprising in Hungary support in Italy waned.
After the fall of the Soviet Union, it emerged that the Italian Communist party received more funding direct from Moscow than any other Communist party as well as training in espionage and clandestine warfare. Moscow and its cohort were always ready to use the vilest of methods to advance its twisted cause, not just the USA.
Read history, not propaganda.......
33

Mashimaro,

China 10/05/2009 02:00:11
The Communist party in italy recieved funding from "moscow" with what? Russia lost 27 million people during the war. It was a nation in ruins. Just as the rest of Europe was in ruins. Of course, though, it didn't have US money pumped into it to help it recover the way western Europe, your country included, did.
When the Communists won in Bulgaria the US poured money in to overthrow the will of the people. Same in Albania, btw. The list is almost endless.
And as I've said to you before... I doubt the Chinese will forget that at the end ofr WWII the allies turned their guns on us.
You might sit cozy in the knowledge that some disasterous policies by communist governments killed millions of people. I would like you to ask yourself how many millions have been killed by capitalist policy. Why is it that the world still cannot feed itself, yet communist countries can? Why is it that more people die of hunger these days under the capitalist IMF policies, than ever before. Do you not judge that as a huge failure of policy too?
34

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 10/05/2009 02:45:35
#33 Mashimaro - The Italian Communist Party (in common with most Communist Parties) received funding directly from Moscow, up to $60 million from the end of WW2 until the mid 1980s. Russia (or rather the Soviet Union) was far from a "nation in ruins" - only part of it was occupied by the Axis and reconstruction was aided by such methods as a vast slave army of POWs and political dissedents, the plunder of much of Eastern Europe (especially Germany and Austria) as well as plunder from Spain. Additionally the Soviet Union received vast quantities of aid and armaments from the USA (and other Allies) during the war under the Lend-Lease scheme.
Far from being an endless list, the Communists seldom win free and fair elections so spare yourself the effort for trawling for obscure examples. As for the Chinese, they might be brainwashed into thinking that the Allies turned their guns on them but that is merely a Communist lie. The Nationalists of the Kuomintang did most of the fighting against the Japanese during WW2 along side the Allies and, when they were weakened by this effort, the Communists struck at the Kuomintang after largely conserving their strength during WW2.
If you want to ask how many millions have been killed by capitalist policy, try asking a capitalist. I am not a capitalist and I fail to see that pointing out the failings of one system of government excuses the excesses of the Communists. You seem to imply that the disasterous policies of the Communists that killed millions of people were unfortunate accidents. Killing is in the nature of the Communists beast and mass killings in the name of ideology began from the first moment the Communists achieved power in 1917. It is not a cozy feeling to know that Communists are mass murderers, it is an uncomfortable feeling which breeds a determination to resist Communism by all available means.
35

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10/05/2009 03:26:43
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10/05/2009 07:10:51
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37

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 10/05/2009 10:04:28
#35 & #36 Britvic 55 - As I indicated earlier, you certainly seem to have a lot of, shall we say, unresolved issues requiring urgent treatment. I am no expert but I believe that those suffering from Paranoia typically have persecutory beliefs concerning a perceived threat towards themselves and often cling irrationally to some extremist beliefs.
In contrast to Mashimaro (and assuming you are not his alter ego after too much alcohol) your "debating skills appear to consist of the strangest of insults and vaccuous flag waving slogans for a discredited and murderous ideology. I strongly suspect that much of your life experience has been from the confines of a padded room.
38

Mashimaro,

China 10/05/2009 12:47:40
Arminius, want to talk about the suffering brought about by the capitalist funded Nazis? No, I thought not. Want to take a look at what capitalism is doing in Somalia? No... I guess not.
The fact is that each system has its bad people and its good people. Each system has killed in its own way.
But at the end of the day, Communism supports the weak and the poor and works at lifting them up out of poverty. What we have now is infinitely better than anything we have had before.
39

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 10/05/2009 13:54:52
#38 Mashimaro - Happy to discuss this when that is what the article is about but your post reeks of avoidance. I am not a slave to a political ideology of economic system so I do not have to leap to the defence of this or that as you feel compelled to do.
At any time of the day Communism kills the weak, the poor, the rich, the powerful even its own supporters. Communist China has had 60 years to lift its people out of poverty and its people are still in poverty by European standards. Taiwan has managed to "lift its people out of poverty" without the dubious benefit of Communism - Per Capita GDP $20,000+ compared to the PRC at less the $4,000.
40

Arminius,

Detmolder Gebiet 10/05/2009 13:58:13
#38 Mashimaro - BTW what is with your little cheerleader #35? Off his chump or what? Don't you have institutions in China where he can get help?
41

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10/05/2009 14:07:01
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42

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 10/05/2009 14:20:17
#38 Mashimaro - Surely with your contacts as a journalist, you know a place where this Britvic 55 nutcase can get help before he starts dressing as Napoleon?
43

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 10/05/2009 17:54:47
#38 Mashimaro - Here is an article from Der Spiegel (in english) of how your poxy ideology went belly up in the DDR nearly 20 years ago now:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,623492,00.html

Strange how the Communists no longer attract 99% of the vote when there are other parties standing and no Stasi to ensure the "correct" result.
44

Mashimaro,

China 11/05/2009 12:52:53
Arminius Taiwan succeeded simply because it was also prepared to kill of dissenters, this time with the fundung of the capitalists. It happens to be a strategic island that the US wants to control.
and once again... altogether now...

CHINA HAS LIFTED MORE PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY FASTER THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD...

a one... a two.. a one two three four...
45

Arminius,

Teutoburger Wald 11/05/2009 17:26:59
#44 Mashimaro - In the absence of a sane and reasonable argument, you resort to childish little slogans.
By Western standards, China (that's the PRC not the very wealthy ROC) most people are still in poverty and haven't been lifted out of anything in my book.
Taiwan succeeded simply because it was also prepared to kill of dissenters? What a crock.......how do you succeed by killing people? Per Capita GDP of the ROC is five times that of the PRC so how come? Because they were better at killing dissenters? You'll need to come up with something a bit better than this nonsense (ah, back to the subject of the article, nonsense coming out of the PRC).
46

Finlang,

Liaoning 15/05/2009 01:14:14
#45 Arminius the real (and ever upwards on this thread)

Well done for being the calm voice of reason despite the raging and ravagings from "he who must obey". Not to mention his handy (non-Chinese) glove-puppet. Out of a population of 1.3 billion this (two vicious malcontents - more if you [dis]count fake IDs) is what floods the Western media? We should be worried ... They are a profound embarrassment to China. That is for sure, and I know that for sure.

I have had for many years the great pleasure of meeting, knowing, working with and making close and valued friends with a host of intelligent, thinking Chinese people - in China. And they could not be more different from the pair of negative blubberheads who spout poison daily on this oh-so-convenient "western" website. I have to emphasise that, because those two combined to try to trash me some months ago. Why? Because I had a difference of opinion, and not least because they knew I had the edge over the pair of them. From ongoing personal experience I know China comprehensively from Hong Kong to Heilongjiang, and am as much at home there as anywhere. I speak the language, unlike the sourpuss from Canada who is linguistically trapped in an environment where he cannot communicate (beyond yes and no) outside of his 20th-storey flat.

What the function and purpose of that pair is I cannot tell, but the tenor of their combined daily rant is a distinctly minority one. You would have to travel some distance to find such blind hatred. Agree with them and they embrace you grovellingly. Dare to offer an alternative opinion and all hell is irrationally let loose upon you.

It says it all really when The Stain has lately to misappropriate your Arminius moniker on here to assert and spread his malevolence. A suitable case for treatment if ever there was.



 

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