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Published Date: 03 September 2008
SARAH Palin voluntarily told John McCain's campaign team about her pregnant teenage daughter – and her husband's arrest two decades ago for drink-driving – during questioning as part of the Republican candidate's search for a running mate.
The Alaska governor also detailed the dismissal of the state's public safety commissioner, an issue that has touched off a legislative investigation, Arthur Culvahouse, the lawyer in charge of the vetting process, revealed yesterday.

Mrs Palin un
derwent a "full and complete" background examination before Mr McCain chose her as vice-presidential candidate, Mr Culvahouse said.

Mr McCain's aides have been trying to dampen questions about whether the Arizona senator adequately researched his surprise selection.

Since Mr McCain announced his choice of running mate on Friday, the notion of a shoddy, rushed review has been repeatedly promoted.

First, a timeline issued by the campaign said Mr McCain initially met Mrs Palin in February, then held one phone conversation with her last week before inviting her to Arizona, where he met her a second time and offered her the job on Thursday.

Then came the disclosure that Mrs Palin's unmarried 17-year-old daughter, Bristol, was pregnant. The father is a high school ice hockey player, Levi Johnston, according to newspaper reports.

The campaign also disclosed that Mrs Palin's husband, Todd, then aged 22, was arrested in 1986 in Alaska for driving under the influence of alcohol.

It also emerged that for two years in the 1990s, Mrs Palin was a member of the Alaska Independence Party, which has at times sought a vote on whether the state should secede from the United States.

Shortly after Mrs Palin was selected, Mr McCain's campaign dispatched a dozen communications experts and lawyers to Alaska. That fuelled speculation a comprehensive examination of Mrs Palin's record and past was incomplete and being initiated only after she was placed on the ticket.



The full article contains 317 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 02 September 2008 10:28 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: John McCain , US elections
 
1

Newman!,

03/09/2008 00:03:14
Anyone know if Mrs Palin is a Rapture ready christian? I'd expect so, and how old does she think the earth is? Does she think we roamed the world and rode on dinasaurs?
2

Laurette,

03/09/2008 00:09:50
She is a Creationist, so I imagine she does believe in this and she wants it taught in schools.
3

SouthernGent,

03/09/2008 00:41:47
#2
You continue to post that as if it is a bad thing to teach. The way I see it, since we have no definitive proof one way or the other, it might be best to teach all options. To eliminate any would be unwise.
4

Newman!,

03/09/2008 00:47:50
#4 There is evidence provided by many many scientists how old our world is and there is not one shred of evidence for "Creationist" theories.
5

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 03/09/2008 01:51:31
I agree with what GW Bush said in the campaign of 2000 when he said he wanted 'school choice'. That means to me that parents should be able to select the schools for their children freely. The government should fund the schools and not interfere as to what is taught in those schools. private agencies should run the schools as they see fit and parents should only select among them with government only funding them. Creationism or evolution, government should not dictate what is taught.

But regarding Sarah Palin, here is an article some of you will find interesting from Huffington Post. You can watch the video of Sarah Palin preaching at the Wasilla Assembly of God in June of this year.

http://www.the-peoples-forum.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=4155

Her church has been described as a dominion christian church. The dominion christians believing in taking dominion over the institutions of man including governments and waging wars on behalf of god. Hilary Clinton also has attended a dominion christian church since 1993 - the story was in Mother Jones.

those who've read my comments know that I am a bible lover, but I do not go with the dominion christians.
6

Scullion,

Canada 03/09/2008 01:55:02
Re #4
I know it's like talking to a brick wall with religious robots on issues such as this but the eagerness with which ignorance is embraced by some in the U.S., including some of its most powerful people, is truly frightening.
Palin is a right wing lightweight and McCain is a dim-witted cantankerous old man. A real dream team.
How can it be possible for Obama not to win?
And yet...
7

mike - across the pond,

wally wally wally 03/09/2008 02:42:03
need we go back to your vitriol of a scant few hours ago?

wally.... did you LISTEN to what she said? or are you just regurgitating the ever so fair and centrist huffington post... (sarcasm intended)

most of the video on your link is pretty mundane, you may not be jewish, catholic, baptist, mormon, methodist, or lutheran, but you probably shouldnt be TOO condemning of what they preach... everything I heard was pretty "mainstream"

at 5:45
"....pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right for this country, and that our leaders are sending them out and that there is a plan and that is gods plan..."

her "preaching style" is different from what I personally am used to, but you have a problem with what she asked prayers and blessings for?

I'd be real careful drinking the swill from the huffington post and daily kos.... they dont believe in the same things I hope you do...
8

mike - across the pond,

scullion.... 03/09/2008 02:49:31
how can obama not win....

1) he believes in "liberation theology" LOOK IT UP... split the hairs... show me where what HE is saying is different from that FAILED methodology...

2) his entire ticket has NO executive experience... not ONE DAY..

3) hes a legislator... not an executive... LISTEN TO HIM... he claims important issues that HE must lead on... "are above (his) pay grade".... excuse me... WE ARE LOOKING TO HIRE SOMEONE TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS... not to shirk that responsability....

sorry pal... he lacks the experience necessary...
9

SouthernGent,

03/09/2008 02:55:51
#7
I don't have strong religious beliefs that cloud my thinking, rather a logical progression in search of answers. What I do find interesting is the way in which many are so intolerant of others beliefs. Not a single one of us knows the origins of the universe and how everything was created, yet there are many that are willing to rule out answers without a shred of evidence to the contrary. To me, those that so adamantly deny religion as an option are no different than those that preach religion as the only option.
10

SouthernGent,

03/09/2008 03:05:08
#7
"How can it be possible for Obama not to win?"

For me, I'll take the right wing religious nutters any day over Obama and his redistribution of wealth domestic policies. I don't believe in enabling large portions of a society in order to keep them dependant on handouts. I believe in personal responsibility and pay based on merit. Obama does not.

Simple test:

Student #1 goes to college, forgoes all partying and studies 24/7 and graduates with all A's.

Student #2 goes to college, forgoes studying and parties 24/7 and does not graduate.

Should student #1 be forced to share his A's with student #2 so that #2 gets to graduate?
11

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 03/09/2008 03:57:02
Mike in 8:

you've caught me (again) Mike. I admit I don't even have sound in my computer. I trust your judgment that if I saw her in that video that I might not think her so bad, most of it was mainstream & normal you said, I believe you. However, the quote in the article says ' "Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God," she exhorted the congregants. ' So Palin said that this task (she's referring to war) is given to us by god. and that I disagree with. and in reading the article the pastor of her church says that we must fight these wars the neo-cons want.

As you know Mike I disagree with that whole point of view. I mention Matthew 5:9 the verse that jesus says 'blessed are the peacemakers' and Matthew 26:52 where jesus says to put away your sword because if you live by it, then you'll die by it. and I remember that jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world and that this is why we don't fight in a military way to save him before he was crucified. etc etc, I could go on & demonstrate that I just don't agree with her pastor named Kalnins' point of view as it is described in the article I linked to.

I think that a large portion of the American christians are deceived, and I think that it is spiritual forces that have deceived them. At the same time I'm not a shill for the democrats as you know. Politically, the only one I really like is Ron Paul.

Here's another link on Palin.

http://www.kissmybigbluebutt.com/palin_2006%5B1%5D.pdf
12

mike - across the pond,

gent.... 03/09/2008 03:59:06
obama doesnt believe that....

he isnt about to give up ANY of HIS GPA....

he's gonna grab some of YOUR GPA....
13

mike - across the pond,

wally 03/09/2008 04:22:30
honestly neither your paste nor mine is strictly 100% punctuation perfect what she said... they both were edited... the spoken word does not readily translate to a smooth reading style... especially if one is not reading from a teleprompter... which she was not...

we have debated before on an authors or speakers core beliefs vs what the message inspires... I guess I am more the "polly anna".... lol

I dont believe she was so arrogant as to say that our government had some divine mandate, that wasnt the tone of what I heard.... but more a prayer and asking for a blessing that our leaders act and govern in a way that "our god" approves... something I think we ALL can get behind.... regardless of the particular weave of our faith...
14

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 03/09/2008 04:48:57
I didn't see the video Mike, so I should withhold judgement on what she said in it, whoever wrote that article could've deceived on that point. The pastor though is very pro-war. and you know I don't go for that. And she is definitely pro-war.
15

Pilrig.,

Livingston 03/09/2008 05:51:34
4 - and Santa Claus exists too. We've all seen him at the shopping malls.
16

Pilrig.,

Livingston 03/09/2008 05:54:32
Let's see. Palin is pro-life but enjoys hunting. She named her eldest daughter Bristol : ) and she believes the Earth is only 7,000 years old ?
Well, you Yanks pick 'em !
17

Tearlach,

Juneau 03/09/2008 05:58:13
The basic premise of this article is complete rubbish. It was open secret here in Juneau three months ago that she was being vetted as a possible VP pick. A vetting team was know to be in town at that time.

I participated in a online poll at National Review.com early last week, several days before her selection was announced. The poll asked who should McCain pick? Romney got about 2000 votes, Palin came in second with 1400, well ahead of a third place finisher whose name I forget who got about 300. A co-worker of mine who supports Obama btw, participated in similar poll on the more left leaning Slate.com website about a month ago. Palin came in 4th on that one. There's been a Palin for VP website for several months now.

This selection was one that was promoted by many, including those who know her best in Alaska, and was a pleasant surprise to us here in Alaska.

Her biggest weakness, is not her lack of experience, (compared to who any way, what has Obama governed? She's been to Iraq, before Obama, she been negociating a pipeline deal with Canada) but the the fact that she is unknown to many outside of Alaska.

That will change.
18

Jason,

Japan 03/09/2008 06:16:34
Would that be a Flintstones Creationist? They're the ones that believe the Devil has a factory manufacturing fossils for His minions to distribute where they will cause the most confusion. Considering his age and medical history, John McCain's selection of Sarah Palin is the height of irresponsibility. "So is there anything else you feel we should be aware of, honey?"
I sense her greatest weakness is a staggering over-confidence. A redneck hick from Nowheresville offered the VP ticket: Anyone else would have said, “Thanks, but no thanks. You got the wrong girl, John.”
And how do you think Obama feels? Sitting on his hands and whistling Dixie while the opposition self-destructs, right?
“I wish I was in de land ob cotton,
Old times dar am not forgotten;
Look away! Look away! Look away! Dixie Land.
In Dixie Land whar I was born in,
Early on one frosty mornin,
Look away! Look away! Look away! Dixie Land.”

19

Itchy,

03/09/2008 08:08:09
#4 it is a bad thing to teach. Creationism uses the method of science to destroy science.

It is just an attempt to prove that the bible is literally true.
20

Itchy,

03/09/2008 08:09:25
#7 "How can it be possible for Obama not to win?"

Because his economic policy is standard left wing, tax and spend tripe.
21

Itchy,

03/09/2008 08:10:44
#10 "To me, those that so adamantly deny religion as an option are no different than those that preach religion as the only option."

All religions require faith and thus religion is irrational.

Reason is the only option.
22

Gulliver,

Harare 03/09/2008 09:28:31
If it is true that communications experts and lawyers were despatched to Mrs. Palin's home area recently then it does raise some questions over McCain's reaction to situations. I think doing it in a conspicuous manner is over-reacting and not wise evidently as it leaves more room for speculation about his judgment and the media is certainly making a meal of it. In my opinion the issue of a teenager who fell pregnant around April this year should does not warrant a conspicuous background verification of his already announced running-mate. (oops was about to say hunting-mate, but that would be more Putin than McCain. Sounds funky though, Putin-Palin.. hunting mates!! Ha ha ha!)

I wouldn't blame anyone if the pregrancy thing was something they might not have been aware of because sometimes people (in this case the girl) are very good at concealing such things even from their parents. It would be reasonable to assume McCain would have spent more time finding out who the good lady is more than who the daughter is dating. It would also be reasonable that the information about the pregnancy might have been concealed by the daughter and therefore really McCain shouldn't panic. If McCain was picking the daugther for running mate then there would have been a problem. Otherwise, I don't think McCain should suffer any set-back over the matter.

23

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/09/2008 09:54:34
The election increasingly looks like a choice between a kick in the balls or a kick in the head.

Both hurt in different ways.
24

EdwinInTampa,

Tampa FL USA 03/09/2008 10:01:29
People are not attacking Palin's daughter, they are rightly pointing out the hypocrisy of a Republican establishment that has advanced the politics of character assassination and undermined the Freedom of Religion in pursuit of power. The internet should be replete with apologies from Republicans for supporting right-wing media, religious, and party wackos who bludgeon and litmus test fellow Americans with some Biblical passages when politically expedient, while not doing so with other passages like those on fidelity, fornication, shell fish, swine, and indentured servitude. Christian Fundamentalists in the Republican Party and Media that want to impose their particular religious interpretations on others can't have it both ways:

Either, a pregnancy is a personal matter SEPARATE from government (as most open minded freedom loving Americans argue), or it isn't.

Christian Fundamentalists want to impose non-medical/religious-only beliefs on people outside of their church in a nation where your pledge of allegiance means you swear not to do that. By advocating the enforcement of her spirituality into law, Palin invited us to do something we shouldn't have to: to examine the consequences of the imposition of Palin's religious beliefs on those of us who don't share them. Hypocrites deserve worse than being put in front of a mirror that reflects the "family values"/"I'm more Christian than you" that were used to distract the nation from a rational and substantiated discussion on issues that are most deserving of our attention.

Christ was the first to advocate a separation of church and state when he declared "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" (Matthew 22:21, see also John 18:36). Don't you dare use him to hide your lack of integrity, self-reflection, and moral courage. Not even someone who Christian Fundamentalists believe is fit to run the US and pick Supreme Court justices; who embodies their "Christian Va
25

Gulliver,

Harare 03/09/2008 10:03:07
Religion and politics.. cant really seperate the two eh..

"All religions require faith and thus religion is irrational.

Reason is the only option."

I would just like to throw in a little caution to the way people are sometimes quick to make harsh judgments about things they may not ABSOLUTELY sure about. There is a pitfall also in making absolute statements. If you believe there can be no absolute position "e.g., religious truth cannot be the (true) truth" then one is standing on tricky ground because it also means that since no absolute truth can exist then one cant assert that "Reason is the ONLY option".

Scientific discoveries sometimes help in understanding things within our grasp, but we must always keep in mind that many scientific "truths" have either been modified or nullified over time with new knowledge coming in. Not so long ago, it was scientifically true that the atom was the smallest indivisible particle of matter, now we talk of neurons, protons, etc.

It is better to have an open mind and not be quick to pass judgments. We should be humbled by the fact that although we have advanced in knowledge we still have much to learn as human beings. We fail to master even the basics of what is within our grasp how can we make judgments about more complex matters? Do you know how you hair grows? Or how if you suffer a cut your body repairs itself? What "program" is driving those red-blood cells to form a clot and for the white-blood cells to initiate anti-biotic behaviour? Who designed those cells to work in the way they do?

How can we therefore make certain statements full of judgment about the bigger picture?
26

Newman!,

03/09/2008 10:39:00
The reason I asked if Mrs Palin is a "Rapture Ready" christian is that such nuts can believe whatever they like but they should not be allowed anywhere close to the button that launches the nukes! This woman will be only one heart attack away from that button if they win. Very scary indeed if you know about such people.
27

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 03/09/2008 12:10:25
How is it possible in this day and age that there are people who believe that the universe is only 6000 years old?

Is this woman a member of the Flat Earth Society too?

She must be only a hop skip and jump from joining one of those weird sects influencing US society.

OMG if the McCain bunch is elected are we going to endure another term of insanity?
28

Gulliver,

Harare 03/09/2008 13:15:43
# 23, One can't get very far without faith even in the circular world I'm afraid. We're all religious in one way or the other...

People who claim not to be religious exhibit some remarkable levels of faith that even people who claim to be religious could turn green with envy.

Take for example, when people are unwell they exhibit a lot of faith in their doctors when they diagonise their ailments and give them particular prescriptions. Doctors in turn exhibit a lot of faith in Pharmacists whom they believe will have been properly and adequately trained in pharmacology.

Very few are pharmacists and will not have gone into a lab to perform an analysis of the so-called drug and verified its effects and side-effects. Very few can therefore claim to KNOW the authenticity and effects of certain drugs.

One has FAITH in the doctor who did the diagnosis and wrote out the prescription.

One has FAITH in the Medicines Control Authority (or the equivalent) that they are doing their job checking that the drug has passed certain quality control requirements and that production is up to scratch.

One has FAITH in the Pharmacist who carried out the tests and concluded that the drug was effective and safe for human use.

Once given medication if it says on the packet, take 2 tablets after every meal, a person will RELIGIOUSLY follow that instruction in the belief that if they do they will get better.
29

Gulliver,

Harare 03/09/2008 13:25:54
Oops! # 30 was supposed to be directed at #22, Itchy
30

Spoot,

Third rock pool on the left 03/09/2008 13:49:00
#29

You have to admit that some of them are making progress. The standard age of the earth was 6000 years until fairly recently, but some of the progressives are now opting for 7000 years. We'll all get there in the end.
31

Newman!,

03/09/2008 14:01:39
# 30 ha ha thats a good one.
Maybe people have faith in a doctor because they have been to the doctor before and they've been helped/cured. Maybe they have faith in a pill because that pill has a mountain of evidence behind it that says the pill works.
Ever thought about that?
32

Sandi,

San Diego 03/09/2008 14:20:24
From what I have read in the last few days, Sarah Palin does not advocate teaching creationism in schools, but on one (1) occasion she said that she didn't see any harm in it being discussed along with other ideas if it was came up, not used as part-or all- of the curriculum. Really, isn't it by discussing things like creationism that students understand how little merit it has?

The Obama campaign has painted this woman as a religious nut, the worst mother since the dawn of time, and competely lacking in experience.

She is none of those things. She is an extremely popular governor. With an 80% approval rating, she's the most popular governor in the United States. The people in Alaska who hate her are the Republicans, yes, her own party, who were and still are, involved in corruption. She has the experience that Obama sorely lacks, and she's running for VP, Obama wants to be president. He ignores the fact that she is a governor and only refers to her as the mayor of a small town. And then he reduces the size of the town by about half. This is how he and his campaign denigrate successful women. This is exactly what they did to Hillary Clinton. Obama's MO is to get serious opposition pushed off the ticket altogether. He can't beat Palin because she is authentic and he is a complete invention, pure marketing strategy.

Palin has been mentioned as a VP candidate since about April. To anyone keeping tabs on this, it was not that much of a surprise.

Hillary Clinton is a Methodist and has been her whole life.
33

SouthernGent,

03/09/2008 14:27:43
And once upon a time the earth was flat.

With logic and reason, you can only believe to the extent to what is known. There is more not known there is known, so I guess there are many here in the "flat earth" group. I stick to leaving all my options open.
34

écossais at heart,

france 03/09/2008 14:28:07
#30
I would question the use of the word "faith" here. Is "trust" not a better term which does not have the deeper implications of the word "faith"?
35

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 03/09/2008 14:28:11
Evidently, there is a media firestorm brewing against Palin.

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/sarah_palin_at_war_with_her_daughter_over_pregnancy_wedding/celebrity/65370

http://markhalperin.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/magcover.jpg

many people feel and my experience tends to think the same that in America the presidents are pre-selected and the media & others are manipulated to get the desired results. Perhaps Mike Bull in #3 has it correct. Perhaps time will tell.
36

Gulliver,

Harare 03/09/2008 14:29:22
Secular world.. not circular!! Ha ha ha! Anyway, as far as the age of the Earth is concerned again there is an exercise of faith because I do not think that any one of the commentators here actually verified for themselves how this whole age and carbon-dating business actually works. There is a lot of faith in those who claim the Earth has been around for billions of years, their motives, methods, and final evaluation.
37

Gulliver,

Harare 03/09/2008 14:55:02
#30,

I just did ran a quick Thesaurus on my machine for the word faith and came up with trust, confidence, assurance, reliance, conviction, belief, etc... I think that it comes down to the same thing. And indeed if it's as serious and grave as a life and death matter (one's life depends on it), i.e., getting one cured then I think it's very appropriate to call it FAITH.

Yep, basing on evidence of experience of self and others e.g., that a condom really works in preventing pregnancy could be used to add to an individual's KNOW-ledge. However, my point is that people do exercise a lot of faith in things they may not have real knowledge of.

Belief's are very common in everyday life.

According to the Bible, "Faith is the substance/evidence of things unseen, things hoped for..."

Yep, when you put in your ATM card in the machine and punch your number, you have a certain level of faith that the unseen money will come out, even when you know your account is in the red!! Aren't we all a faithful bunch! LOL!!

But seriously, in everyday life we apply our faith in a lot of things although we are not going "Allah" or "Amen" at the beginning or end of it.
38

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 03/09/2008 14:57:25
Sandi in 34:

Hilary Clinton may say she's a Methodist. But Mother Jones ran a big article documenting that she has attended a dominion christian church since 1993 in Washington. That church in Washington that sometimes calls itself 'the family' uses the similar dominionist language used by Palin's pastor in Wasilla. The methodists of course reject this dominionist stuff. There was 1 fellow who was an unemployed liberal-leaning writer and who heard rumors that Hilary Clinton was a member, he went undercover, joined the church and lived as a member for a long time. He witnessed Hilary Clinton at their events as well as many other politicians. Then he wrote a book about his experiences.
39

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 03/09/2008 15:06:35
I agree with Southern Gent above when he says that none of us were reallly around when the world allegedly either evolved or was created. Theory of evolution requires a lot of faith, there is no evidence behind it. The creationist people have disproved evolution through application of scientific method, someone above said that, they are correct.

The doctor analogy of Gulliver in 30 is a good analogy. The whole medical profession including the corporations who produce their drugs are interested in one thing and that is money every time you go to a doctor. Therefore, they do provide services that are not in your medical interest sometimes. There is much medical evidence to suggest that the excessive vaccines given to children cause autism. Yet people put blind faith in doctors and their advice. The evidence doctors use to justify their views often is bought & paid for by big corporations and is not done in the interest of truth or health.

People are foolish to pretend that spiritual forces aren't here. and I think the evolution theory makes no sense at all, it requires a lot of faith to buy it.
40

Tearlach,

Juneau 03/09/2008 15:07:52

You guys are making a lot about Palin's religious beliefs. Some don't think we should talk about a politicians religious beliefs and associations. But I think it is important discussion. It says a lot about a person's caracter.

What does it say about a person's fitness for high office when that someone for 20 years sat at the feet of one who preaches, God Damn America? I am talking about Reverend "the government created AIDS to kill black people" Wright. What does is say about a candidate who has sat at the feet of Reverend "the Unites States deserved 9-11" Wright for 20 years, someone Obama could no more disown than he could disown his own Grandmother (til he did disown her, then him)?

Not two months ago you guys were saying a candidate's religion was relevent. Now you are saying it is.

So, let's talk. Let's compare Palin's beliefs with Obama's.
41

Wally,

By THe Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 03/09/2008 15:31:57
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/03/opinion/03wed1.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

It isn't just National Enquirer that is ripping McCain over Pali. Here is a New York Times article.
42

we the people,

03/09/2008 15:33:16
creationists want to turn schools into christian madrassas.they are enfeebling children's minds with myth - yes, by all means read the bible and think critically about it, reason within the parameters of your accepted tradition and so on, but attempting to deny the reality of how are species and world came into being is frankly weird. and the same mindset produces the blyth denial of climate change, assertion that homosexuals are somehow inferior and all the other unpleasant tropes that emanate from the christian right. they are the mirror image of the iranian mullahs, and both are hideous.
43

,

03/09/2008 16:02:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
44

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 03/09/2008 16:18:32
Tearlach in 42:

Let's discuss matters of faith along with politics of Palin & Obama as you suggest. To me, the biggest political issue is the fact that the US creates a lot of wars around the world and is killing a lot of people as well as overturning the governments of foreign nations with these wars. We're told by political leaders that we need to fight these wars. But we have no tangible evidence that these nations we attack are our enemies. Even press releases and leaks from our intelligence agencies tell us that there is no evidence that these people we war against are our enemies. Many people including Obama & Palin both put faith in the idea that we must war on these countries without any real evidence.

For example, the FBI issued a statement saying that there is no evidence that Osama Bin Laden had anything to do with the september 11 events. Yet Donald Rumsfeld says Bin Laden is guilty. Rumsfeld is the same individual who back in the 1980's insisted that the US give huge amounts of aid to Saddam Hussein. I suggest it is not a good idea to put faith in what Rumsfeld says. Also, after the Sept 11 events the Taliban of Afghanistan publicly offerred to surrender Bin Laden if they could find him. The Taliban who received aid from US taxpayers for decades is not the same as Osama Bin Laden. Why did we war on Afghanistan? Why did we war on Iraq? Why did we war on Somalia? Thats 3 wars Bush started without any of those nations attacking us. In all 3 nations today lots of innocent people get killed, the wars still rage. Why? It takes a lot of faith to believe the war-mongers that it was somehow a good idea.

Reverend Wright opposes those wars. Senator Obama does not. Obama is a lot closer to Palin on these issues than he is to Wright.

I'd feel better about Palin's faith if it was bible-based. When our foreign policy ends up killing millions of people over time due to mistakes that our government has made, then we should not only be
45

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 03/09/2008 16:19:22
I'd feel better about Palin's faith if it was bible-based. When our foreign policy ends up killing millions of people over time due to mistakes that our government has made, then we should not only be humble in the situation (as GW Bush counseled in 2000 campaign), but we should be ashamed. Last night Senator Thompson told us we had nothing to be ashamed of. The bible tells us that we do have a need for shame. It tells us that pride goeth before the fall. If you want me to cite the exact policies of the US that have killed millions of innocent people, then I can do that, Americans are fools not to be aware of these things.

Also, jesus counseled non-violence specifically, I mentioned 2 verses above. It is true that he said that his message would bring violence to the world as it was revolutionary, but he also counseled his followers to avoid this violence. I think if you read the prophecies, they are wildly different than the way that Palin’s pastor Kalnin describes them. The bible tells us that the world is made in such a way that it is inevitable that evil people will rule this world prior to when jesus returns. Yet Palnin’s pastor allies himself with these people who rule us and counsels that we fight their wars. Jesus said that when the situation spins out of control, when things are so bad that we will feel we can’t even live any more, that then he will return and begin to build his kingdom of heaven on earth. I don’t believe that we should take up arms and press violence in foreign countries that did not attack us. That is not Christian at all. Jesus did not tell us to bring about these end events by instigating wars. That is a faith that some people have, but a ‘fallen-away’ faith is what it is. Jesus counseled that there would be a fallen-away faith that would be powerful among many during the time leading up to the end of this era.

My conclusion is that Reverend Wright is a lot more Christian than this pastor Kalnin fellow. I saw only
46

Wally,

By THe Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 03/09/2008 16:20:36
My conclusion is that Reverend Wright is a lot more Christian than this pastor Kalnin fellow. I saw only 1 of Wright’s sermons in its entirety, it was the one he delivered on September 16, 2001. That one was described as being anti-American, I thought it was Christian.

Americans should be humble and sober when confronting realities of their own government. George Washington counseled that his loyalties were first to his god, second to his family and third to his nation. He did not counsel loyalty to a government or to a political faction. In recent years the US government has caused much misery for poor people around the world, it has instigated a lot of war and is responsible for millions of deaths as I said. American Christians should beware of deceptions on these matters. And if they would read the prophetic books, then they’d see that we’re warned strongly about powerful deceptions in these times.
47

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 03/09/2008 16:35:16
Harry Reid in 46:

the 'socialist' media is fascist. There are 6 corporations that own over 95% of the US media. Those 6 corporations support the mercantile clique that rules us. If things are being manipulated to help Obama to be elected (as they very well may be), then you should be happy as you support the same fascist agenda as those 6 corporations as does Obama.

The bitter divisions of the 2-party fraud are made deeper with Palin being selected. This distracts from reality and facilitates that people vote for candidates (either republican or democrat) who support the agenda of those who rule us. And she helps to throw the election to Obama it seems. This is necessary to further the agenda as Republicans have become so unpopular. Obama can carry the agenda better than McCain. That is what is happening.

Only if Obama rebels against the agenda of those who rule us will he be removed from the scene in 4 years or less by one means or another. If he is loyal to the agenda, then he'll serve 8 years. By then he'll be so unpopular that those who rule us will throw it back to the Republicans whose turn it will be then to carry forward the same agenda.

48

,

03/09/2008 17:13:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
49

Pilrig.,

Livingston 03/09/2008 17:16:44
I doubt most folk would object to Creationism and it's sibling ID being taught or discussed at school. Just that RE classes would be more appropriate places for them rather than the science classroom.
50

Pilrig.,

Livingston 03/09/2008 17:22:36
51 - Franco and Thatcher's pal Pinochet were both fascists nobody would describe them as liberals. Same applies to the architects and maintainers of apartheid.
51

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2008 18:36:59
So let me get this right!
There is a pregnant daughter and an old drunk driving ticket?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
And this matters? How sad is America?
Just when you think they can not get any worse this stuff happens.
I am an Obama fan so I could not care less about McCain. But when it gets this pathetic it is time to shake ones head and ask where it all went wrong.
52

Itchy,

03/09/2008 18:50:28
#30

"Take for example, when people are unwell they exhibit a lot of faith in their doctors when they diagonise their ailments and give them particular prescriptions. Doctors in turn exhibit a lot of faith in Pharmacists whom they believe will have been properly and adequately trained in pharmacology."

WRONG! What you have described is confidence. People reasonably assume a doctor and a pharmacist know their business.

Faith is what you have in Robert Mugabe and Marxist-Leninism.
53

Laurette,

03/09/2008 18:51:31
#9 Mike:he claims important issues that HE must lead on... "are above (his) pay grade"....

The question he answered in that manner was in answer to "When Does Life Begin". The answer that it was above his pay grade referred to the Almighty. Who did you think he was referring to? GW?? Nice try though!
54

Itchy,

03/09/2008 18:52:24
"35 SouthernGent,03/09/2008 14:27:43
And once upon a time the earth was flat.

With logic and reason, you can only believe to the extent to what is known."

Utter mince. Reason and logic is how man makes discoveries and gains knowledge.
55

Itchy,

03/09/2008 18:54:25
#41 "Theory of evolution requires a lot of faith, there is no evidence behind it. The creationist people have disproved evolution through application of scientific method, someone above said that, they are correct.
"

Loads of evidence for evolution.

None for creationism.

Creationism is not science, it is religion and you are both irrational and a liar.
56

Itchy,

03/09/2008 18:57:20
#45 " and the same mindset produces the blyth denial of climate change,"

Wrong.

Evolution is science, 'Climate change' is just an excuse to use all sorts of contradictory evidence to impose communism.
57

Laurette,

So Cal 03/09/2008 19:10:06
Had McCain selected Tom Ridge as his VP - I would have considered voting for him knowing that if McCain died I'd have a President that I would have total confidence in to run the Country. You must ask why McCain was not allowed to have him and the answer is that because of his Pro-Choice stand - he was not acceptable to the Far Right. I find it scary to think that a group of ideologues like Dobson, Ralph Reed and Gary Bauer have the power to choose who a possible Presidents running mate should be and Sarah Palin was "Red Meat" to the very far Right Wing in the Country who want to convert this Country into a Theocracy.
58

Richardinho,

03/09/2008 19:17:02
I don't think any of these revelations violate the terms of McCain's free press pass, do they?
59

SouthernGent,

03/09/2008 19:18:19
#57
And by your reasoning, the unknown in the Universe has not been proven by any kind of science, therefore it must not exist. You can't pick in choose based on scientiic fact. Infinity is a pretty big place and based on what we "know" your saying that you "believe" that it must be more of the same. Yet it very well may be we are a spec in a large bowl of jello. I can't prove it and you can't disprove it. Don't be so shallow in what you "believe", it may be wise to have a few more options.
60

Richardinho,

03/09/2008 19:27:08
#62 so what you're saying is-'better believe in god, just in case'?
61

Wally,

By THe Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 03/09/2008 19:37:39
Itchy in 58:

you said that there is no science to disprove the evolution theory. There is a lot of science to disprove the evolution theory. You are ignorant as well as a liar. here's 2 links.

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=38031&Disp=4

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/

In America there have been academics looking at these questions and many people feel that the evolution theory is completely discredited. How could the human heart evolve by accident? and we're told that genetic mutations occurring randomly cause this evolution. But genetic mutations very rarely occur. and when they occur nothing good is produced. How could generations of people survive without a heart while this process of evolution was occurring. I think the theory of evolution is silly and it requires a huge leap of faith to believe in.

stubborn people believing in idols that they raise up in their own minds don't want to hear it, but god made the world and everything in it. Man is generally doing nothing but destroying it slowly. Whether it be due to the depleted uranium dust that causes birth defects and death, the genetically modified foods that cause plants in the wild to malfunction and bees to die or the chemicals & pharmaceutical drugs that man produces and end up destroying the natural environment. It is foolish to believe in the things of man. From a scientific point of view, creationism makes a lot more sense than evolution.
62

JG,

Fife 03/09/2008 19:43:55
#51 Rosie's Opinion
You accept definitions you find on 'Wikipedia'?
63

Richardinho,

03/09/2008 19:44:41
This discussion reminds me of the famous 'Dover trial' when creationists finally had their day in court and were soundly thumped.

Wally I challenge you to watch this lecture by Ken Miller in which he talks about it and the part he played in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg
64

Pilrig.,

Livingston 03/09/2008 19:48:34
The human appendix - where'd we be withoot it ?
65

Kitti Kat,

Newtown Square 03/09/2008 19:49:31
I am SICK AND TIRED of Bible beaters and so called "creationists" trying to ram their views down our throat. My mom once said to "beware of "born agains" and "creationists" and at the time I didn't give it much thought but I sure tdo now. What happened to "freedom of religion" is beyond me. The fundamentalist "christians" have taken over the political system and seem to be voting for things that should not be government business--right of choice, religion, speech. It's down the tubes. I will not be voting for McCain and perhaps not even Mr. Obama. Am sick and tired of having religious views rammed down my throat by ALL politicians. God help us all if those so called "christians" run the country.
66

Richardinho,

03/09/2008 19:54:41
#64 Wally-that idea about maths 'disproving' evolution is utter nonsense.

The chances of winning the lottery may be a million to one, yet people win the lottery every week.
This is because the chances of someone winning the lottery is 100%. What is unlikely for an individual is an absolute certainty on a more general scale.
67

Pilrig.,

Livingston 03/09/2008 19:58:16
64 - "Creationism makes more sense than evolution" what creation story would that be? the Hindu one perchance in which nothing existed until Brahma made the sound 'Om' ?
68

Pilrig.,

Livingston 03/09/2008 19:59:14
68 - Jesus wants them all for sunbeams !
69

SouthernGent,

03/09/2008 20:03:46
#63
Personally, I give "God" a 50/50 chance. Until proven one way or the other, I give everything a 50/50 chance. How can you say something exists or does not exist without definitve proof? And no, Santa was never found at the north pole. Those that believe in god and those that do not believe in god are ironically very similar.
70

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2008 20:04:03
Kitty Kat

I very much doubt Bush and McCain are religious. I very much doubt the Pope believes in god. These people are powermongers, thats it! Power, rule, lies, deceit, whatever it takes to maintain their power! They hide behind religion and pretend that god exists because there is still a large number of people out there who need to hear their politicians speak about god. So they give the masses what they need to obtain their vote.
At the end of the day, here we are on a thread discussing a pregnant 17 year old and a 20 year old drunk driving charge, when we could discuss former Presidents who dropped atomic bombs on people, or Presidents who send young men to their death for oil whilst using the twin towers as an excuse. Or we could discuss the President who got his d!kc sucked by an intern whilst his wife was in the next room.
Yes morals a plenty in the white house
71

Media 1,

Cape Town 03/09/2008 20:07:01
Southern Gent

If I told you there was a ceramic tea pot orbiting the sun. Would you, 1. Tell me I am crazy 2.Say that there could be but until you see it you dont believe it or 3. Agree with me without wanting proof

72

SouthernGent,

03/09/2008 20:08:03
#68
"God help us all if those so called "christians" run the country"

Was this intentional after you little rant are possibly a freudian slip?
73

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2008 20:10:29
Southern Gent

If we could really see god, really touch god and really speak to god, and there were people who STILL said he did not exist.
Would those people be frowned upon?
Why then should it be any different the other way round?
74

SouthernGent,

03/09/2008 20:11:03
#74
We both know we have the scietific ability to determine that, don't we.

Now put that tea pot into the infinite universe in which no one knows and we don't have the means to verify, then I'd say there is a 50/50 chance it exists.
75

SouthernGent,

03/09/2008 20:16:31
#76 Good questions.

They would probably be frowned upon, but that is a human flaw. Humans like to judge each other on what they "believe" to be is right. And we will always have those type people.

As I see it right now, you could not convince me that there is a god. But you also could not convince me that there is not one. And one would look silly trying without proof either way.
76

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2008 20:46:23
Southern Gent

I appreciate your views. You are an agnostic, I used to be an agnostic! With no real evidence to suggest that a god does not exist,there is half a chance one does exist.
Personally speaking, I am pragmatic!

If there REALLY was a big red ball in the sky and some people said their wasnt, we would treat them with disdain and mock them for their utter ignorance.
Therefore, the same must apply the other way around!

And this is why I am no longer an agnostic! Because the other way around I would need to make a decision, sitting on the fence would be impossible.
77

Itchy,

03/09/2008 21:13:44
#62 I can't respond to your post as it is a random collection of words with no argument in them whatsoever.

#64 "You are ignorant as well as a liar. here's 2 links.

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=38031&Disp=4

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/
"

The ignorance and lies are yours. Creationism is mumbo jumbo masquerading as science.

" think the theory of evolution is silly and it requires a huge leap of faith"

Why are you condemning leaps of faith? All religion requires faith. Science is based on reason.
78

SouthernGent,

03/09/2008 21:15:02
I think too many people interchange the words "suspect" and "know", and it causes way too much confusion. I suspect there may or may not be a god, but I certainly don't know.
79

Itchy,

03/09/2008 21:18:49
#72 "Those that believe in god and those that do not believe in god are ironically very similar."

Nope. Your statement is arbitrary and meaningless.

If God exists, then like everything else that exists, God is finite and limited and has a nature. It is up to those who say God exists to define what they mean by God and then provide proof.

BTW anything that does not exist leaves no proof and it is impossible to prove that something does not exist.
80

SouthernGent,

03/09/2008 21:33:16
#82
Your belief that God does not exist relies on the same evidence that God does exist - absolutly none.
81

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2008 22:11:27
Southern Gent

I go back to my original question.

If we are shown the statue of liberty it is impossible to say she does not exist. Therefore, the other way round must also apply.
82

SouthernGent,

03/09/2008 23:26:22
#84
OK, re-write your sentence and go from there. If we are not shown the statue of liberty it is impossible to say she exists.

Wrong. There is a possiblilty that she does exist, even thou she has never been seen. The possibility is still there.

We know that the universe is infinite, yet we have never seen it all. Does it not exist?
83

mike - across the pond,

um southerngent 04/09/2008 00:42:08
sorry to tell you....

Santa Claus DOES exist... its simply a matter of context...

Hopi indians here in america have "gods" they teach their children about... (similar concepts to Santa Claus)... when the children "come of age" they meet these "gods"... strip the masks.... only to find... their parents...

the context of Saint Nick living at the north pole and coming down the chimney.... not real...

the context of Saint Nick "know when you are sleeping... know when you're awake.... bad or good..." yeah pretty well describes what a parents job is.... doesnt it?
84

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 04/09/2008 02:05:34
It seems the computer program that selected Palin as McCain's running mate wasn't up to scratch.
85

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 04/09/2008 04:14:52
Come to think of it neither was the decision that chose McCain.
86

Gulliver,

Harare 04/09/2008 09:29:32
# 55, Itchy

GOTO NUMBER 39! RETURN

I have never seen or heard Mr. Dell in all my life and if someone were to say to me he is a myth I could have a hard time proving that he does exist. I have never visited the HP or DELL manufacturing plant or seen documentary evidence that the computer I am using was manufactured and created by someone. However, if someone came and told me that the computer I am using wasn't made and that it actually just "emerged" from a rock containing high concentrations of quartz, copper, and aluminium then I'd certainly ask them what the h*** that person has been smoking!!!

I'll have performed a LOGICAL analysis and looked at it's functionality, operability, design etc.. and come to the obvious conclusion that there had to be a creator somewhere who put careful thought into its design. It's just too good for someone to claim it came out of rock and that it had no creator!

Now if people look at simple things within their grasp and make conclusions like that how can they not accept the concept of intelligent design? It seems quite illogical to be able to accept that something relatively basic like a computer does has creator yet something far more complex like human being just emerged from nowhere!! We may differ on which God but surely how can anyone fail to see God's signature in creation even when they look at their very selves?
87

Gulliver,

Harare 04/09/2008 10:56:34
Itchy,

Your remarks about my faith (or not) in Mugabe and Lenin are unwarranted. You start off seemingly making some good points then suddenly you violently veer off the logical highway and choose to launch personal attacks and make rather unneccessary comments!

You just repeat the same old accusations about marxists, communists etc. even when they do not add value to your contributions on the discussion at hand. I am glad no one gets caught up in your twisted political miasma which provides some very unneccessary distractions to the intelligent discourse going on on these threads.

I'm really disappointed.
88

mike - across the pond,

laurette 04/09/2008 19:10:46
I know what he was talking about... abortion...

either way you decide is a decision... for or against

"above my pay grade" is a dodge... if you want an Executive that dodges thats fine, SAY IT...

I want an executive that MAKES a decision... regardless of if I agree with that decision or not... MAKE a decision... sitting there wringing your hands is not what I want in the whitehouse
89

Let's have the truth,

In a bomb shelter 07/09/2008 03:17:21
"McCain team deny 'hasty' VP decision"

If that means they took their time it doesn't bode well for decisions they may make should they win office.

 

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