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Published Date: 28 July 2008
REPUBLICAN presidential candidate John McCain launched a blistering attack on Barack Obama yesterday, accusing his rival for the White House of ignorance in foreign affairs.
The Arizona senator said Obama, who has returned from his world tour, "doesn't understand what's at stake" in Iraq by opposing the surge in troop numbers that has cut violence in recent months.

And Mr McCain stood by comments he made earlier in
the week that Mr Obama would "lose a war in order to win a political campaign."

"He (Mr Obama] chose to take a political path that would have helped him get the nomination of his party," Mr McCain told ABC. "And if we'd done what Senator Obama wanted done, it would have been chaos, genocide, increased Iranian influence, perhaps al-Qaeda establishing a base again."

Mr McCain's outburst came as polls showed that Mr Obama had opened a seven-point lead over his rival after a week-long trip that took him to Afghanistan, the Middle East and Europe.

It was also an attempt to shift the focus of debate on Iraq, to arguments about whether the war was a good idea – Mr Obama opposed it, Mr McCain supported it – and a discussion about what happens now.

Mr McCain insists the "surge" has not just reduced violence, but has also created the conditions for Iraq to establish itself as a stable democracy – and said Iraq was now "a stable ally in the region". Opinion polls show that while voters warm to Mr Obama on domestic issues, they see Mr McCain as a more reliable commander-in-chief.

Mr McCain is seeking to bolster that view by advocating a much more hard-line stance on China and Russia.

He has already outlined his plan for a "League of Democracies" operating in the way the original United Nations was conceived, but only open to democracies including those in Europe, Brazil, India and Japan.

His plan and versions of it have strong cross-party support in the United States, which has come to see itself as besieged by enemies ranging from China and Russia to Iran, North Korea and Venezuela.

Mr McCain yesterday delivered his strongest criticism so far of Russia, branding the new president, Dmitri Medvedev, as a puppet of former president Valdimir Putin and saying Moscow had become an "autocracy" that must be expelled from the Group of Eight industrialised nations.

"We want better Russian behaviour internationally, and we have every right to expect it," he said, in defending a proposal that is opposed by the other G8 members, which only included Russia after the collapse of the Communist government there in the early 1990s.

Mr McCain also acknowledged that Mr Obama's plan to pull troops out of Iraq within 16 months, endorsed last week by Iraq's government, was "a pretty good timetable", an apparent change from his previous insistence that troops could stay "up to 100 years".

"Anything is a good timetable that is dictated by conditions on the ground," Mr McCain said.

"But the timetable is dictated, not by an artificial date, but by the conditions on the ground, the conditions of security."





The full article contains 531 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 27 July 2008 10:45 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

,

28/07/2008 00:53:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

2dogs in D.C.,

28/07/2008 00:56:31
"If politicians fished instead of spoke publicly, we would be at peace with the world" Will Rodgers. Fact is, Obama has already said he would listen to the Generals and the decide.
3

2dogs in D.C.,

28/07/2008 00:57:30
OOps- and THEN decide. Sorry.
4

American,

28/07/2008 01:26:07
#2-2 dogs- And will his decision be based on what the generals report, or what the lib left-wingers want? Not crazy about either candidate, but obama (with his big ego) is quite sure he's going to be president for the 57 US states for the next "10" years.
5

Tom in Belmont,

Belmont 28/07/2008 02:34:36
Obama has to straddle a rift in his own party between a crazy-ass left that feeds him money and a more sober-minded center that can get him votes. McCain has to woo that same center. They have different challenges, but on the whole it's easier for McCain to sound consistent without risking his party base, because the big electoral split in the USA is Right-Center, not Right-Left.
The recent "Obama Grand Tour", for example, made the Left (who are Euro-wannabees) very happy, but did not sit so well with the center, who wonder just which country Mr. O is planning to represent if elected.
6

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 28/07/2008 02:41:06
"in the United States, which has come to see itself as besieged by enemies ranging from China and Russia to Iran, North Korea and Venezuela."

that is a funny one.

7

mike - across the pond,

2 dogs 28/07/2008 02:51:35
if we only had a president who listened to his generals...

if we only had a president who did what the leaders of Europe told him...

the problem is WEVE BEEN HERE...

the General (MacArthur) disagreed with what the president and the european leaders wanted....

and Truman fired him...

truman is widely regarded as being "middle of the road" at best....
8

mike - across the pond,

ATTN Scotsman editors.... 28/07/2008 03:19:30
you are printing articles by a "journalistic slacker"

mr Chris Steven apparently is too lazy to place his "100 years" McCain quote in proper context.... and you printed his drivel...

shame on you...

or are you aspiring for the reputation of the NY Times?
9

Tatties ower the side,

Johannesburg 28/07/2008 04:33:51
Wow! If US sees China as an enemy and blocks all imports from there, Wallmart's shelves will be emptier than a Zimbabwe supermarket!!!
10

Mashimaro,

China 28/07/2008 05:36:39
what kind of chimps do you have editing this rag.
11

gus1940,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 08:21:27
The biggest threat to world peace is The US and its infantile crazy foreign policy.

There must be many people who like myself fear the foreign policy of The US more than that of any other country or group of countries.

When are the brainwashed populace of the US going to realise that if it wasn't for US foreign policy,in particular its slavish support for the genocidal actions of Israel, Al Quaeda and its associates wouldn't exist.

Could somebody snswer the following question?

Were you aware of any threat of Islamic terrorism to The UK prior to Blair's crawling up Bush's backs--e after 9/11?

12

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 28/07/2008 08:24:57
Looks like McCain has lost his rag again or is that his "Marbles"?

Someone so quick to lose his temper is not fit to lead the US or any other nation come to that.

If he's elected it would be Nixon all over again.

He's merely pandering to the rednecks and trigger happies.
13

Number 6,

Germany 28/07/2008 13:49:47
Poor old McCain. The fear and paranoid drenched rantings of a frail old man. Pathetic to talk of China and Russia as enemies. His insulting of China will come back to haunt America. He still fails to realise China can pull the plug on your fragile recovery any time they wish, simply by with-holding any more loans and demanding repayment of the Billions you have already borrowed.

McCain also shows he is anything but ready to lead America in world affairs with his "reds under the bed"
"Arabs in the attic" and "Chinese in the Cellar" mentality, coupled with him talking of his concerns for countries that no longer exist or borders (Iraq/ Afgahnistan) that have NEVER existed, not even when he was young. Who knows what he will be gibbering about come November.
14

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 28/07/2008 13:58:42
Number6

"Who knows what he will be gibbering about come November".

...Bats in the Belfrey maybe?
15

Number 6,

Germany 28/07/2008 14:08:58
#14 Let's hope defeat. This is a much much more dangerous character than Bush. Bush is along for the ride, nothing more, nothing less. I doubt he has taken a single unilateral decision in the last 8 years except what cartoons to watch after lunch. McCain is a different kettle of fish, with so many chips on his shoulder, so much to hide and with so many enemies.
And that is just in the US.

We see how he likes to be confrontational, he still thinks this is the 50's , when the US was a country to be reckoned with. The modern world has passed him by and I fear he would use 50's mentality to solve disputes, from wars to trade agreements.

Simply too primitive and myopic to possibly be given the job of (Cue Fanfare) "Commander in Chief". Shudder.
16

Silence of the Yams,

28/07/2008 14:10:12
McCain is a plain speaker, not a slippery snake like Obama.
17

Gunga Din,

28/07/2008 14:24:31
McCain - the man is a complete idiot , and will be even worse than Bush. Not only will the world suffer , but the US will sink into an even deeper hole within itself and it's own problems. A goverment which refuses to recognise it's own bad record on pollution, never mind social injustices , is not going to recognise anything else , is it ?
18

Number 6,

Germany 28/07/2008 14:26:54
#16 A "Plain speaker" ??????. I'm afraid to inform you that he has recently been anything but a plain speaker, talking gibberish rubbish and writing op-ed's so innacurate and full of lies, that even the US media refused to print it. If you track down the rejected op-ed you will see he was claiming the war in Iraq is " won", yep it's all over . Maybe now he will recommend we all hop over the "Border" into Afgahnistan.
Does that not terrify you, that someone so clueless could soon be "Leading" your country ?.

It certainly scares the rest of the world outside Israel.
19

Gulliver,

Harare 28/07/2008 15:01:37
"We want better Russian behaviour internationally, and we have every right to expect it,"

Does anyone have a clue what Mr. McCain means by "better behaviour"? If anything the behaviour of the US and UK over the last coupla' years are glaring examples of irresponsible behaviour- going against international conflict prevention & resolution guidelines, and waging senseless wars on other countries in the so called fight against terrorism and in the name of bringing "democracy" to nations.

I suspect that by specifically mentioning Russia and China he is making reference to the defeated resolutions at the G8 and UN to formally have Zimbabwe on the Security Council agenda for sanctions and other actions. Please Mr. McCain!!

He has no right to wage a judgemental finger against the Russians, if they realized that the country in question was not a threat according to INTERNATIONALLY AGREED CRITERIA then why should they be blamed for abiding by the rules? IF the rules (UN Security Council guidelines) are not good enough then he should GET THE RULES fixed and not blame the players and make reckless statements.

America is a great nation, full of great people who have shared many good things with the nations of the world, but there has to be a shift in American foreign policy. Mr. McCain could learn a thing or two from his younger rival.
20

mike - across the pond,

ah number 6 28/07/2008 15:18:30
Thankfully your "vote" in November will count for all it should. NOTHING, Zero, Zilch, Nada, Nary

pray tell, mien deuscher freund, WHAT is the great change BO represents? Detail it. the DNC cant come up with anything. BO's crowd cant detail it.

listening to other opinions?
oh wait, it is McCain who gets a luke warm reception from conservatives because he listens to the opinions of liberals. and BO who makes his policies BEFORE HE TALKS TO ANYBODY. who is it who doesnt listen?

your "op-ed" dig?
hold on there again pal, seems that the NYTimes wouldnt print the op-ed because McCain didnt "mirror" BOs "etched in granite" piece... problem is, McCain's stance is FLEXABLE, because he will listen (there goes that "listen" word again) to his 2 sources that mean anything over there. the Iraqi government, and his generals on the ground. oh, and as far as Der Speigel's loose translation of Malaki's "request". Der Speigel (like the NYTimes) was WRONG, AGAIN. just like the last time the "iraqi government requested the US to leave". which turned out NOT to be "the government" but a referrendum from a very limited Sadr faction of the government. a referrendum THAT FAILED to pass in the Iraqi government.

eventually we WILL leave. when the time is right. and not by some EU timescale.

and as far as McCain, I notice that EU countries are electing more and more conservative leaders. leaders VERY unlike BO. leaders MUCH more like McCain. you want me to vote for somebody your own countrymen would not vote for?

and as I remember, Ronald Reagan met with some "not so warm receptions" throughout the world. and he did just fine.

So I dont know that I really care one way or the other what you think about who will be our next President and leader of the free world.
21

Number 6,

Germany 28/07/2008 15:20:19
#19 Correct on all points Gulliver. Unfortunatley, McCain is a "my way or the highway" kind a guy. Diplomacy, and consensus, he would see as a sign of weakness.

The best thing if McCain does somehow make the whitehouse, would be for the US to be (Rightly)
declared a rouge state and left to wallow in their own isolationism.
22

Gulliver,

Harare 28/07/2008 15:27:27
# 11, Gus

I agree with you. A reckless foreign policy is the biggest threat to the world. The statements by Mr. McCain and miscalculations could easily spark World War III.
23

Number 6,

Germany 28/07/2008 15:33:28
First things first Mikey boy. Your President never has been and never will be the "Leader of the free world".
Bush would not be able to walk down most streets in the world without a barrage of outrage. What a laughable notion.

You live in a land with one of the most controlled medias, hence whenever the Iraq's say something that does not siut your goverment, they will simply change it. No of course they dont want you out of Iraq ??/ What ? are you really so dumdb that you think any, any Iraqis want to see your murdering raping destroying Army on their soil. What a remarkable concept. As I said you live in the world of "Perception management"
your goverment's biggest achievement.

We in Europe get the news without the propaganda.
I see you have added the one millionth name to your terrorist watch list. How paranoid and indeed terrified you must be to see "Terrorists" under every bed.

Are you not aware the world is laughing at you ?.

Whatever leaders are elected in Europe , none of them would be remotley like McCain. We rarely elect pottering old men with as shameful a background as him.
You couldn't fool us into it. You see ?. Nope . of course you don't.
24

mike - across the pond,

gulliver 28/07/2008 15:34:07
Russia and behavior.

do you know what a history book IS? ever read one?

what would you think of a country who entered into an agreement to enhance the defense of itself and surrounding countries, only to be openly threatened by another country for entering into those agreements.

czechoslovakia is the threatened.
RUSSIA is the one doing the threatening.
(please god let him bring Cuba to the table)

explain your stance in THAT context please.

and then if you care, take the time to explain WHY the entirety of Africa shouldnt be under the UN Security Council's scrutiny?
25

Number 6,

Germany 28/07/2008 15:40:44
Mikey like McCain , you show your isolationistic ignorance of the world.

Czechoslovakia DOES NOT EXIST.

Latest news McCain calls for oil exploration in Narnia.
"It must be ours" he raged, "I saw it on tv and everyone had an American accent".

You idiots can threaten them all you want (Typical, how dare they change their minds), but you will find it pretty difficult to bomb, when it's not in existence. God protect us from them.
26

,

28/07/2008 15:42:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
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27

mike - across the pond,

ah number 6... you stepped in it again... 28/07/2008 16:03:00
I challenge you to have an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.

as far as geriatric leaders, dare I mention that Italy's PM, Silvio Berlusconi, is a mere MONTH younger than McCain? so much for the "enlightened" EU not electing senior citizens.

and as far as being the leader of the free world,
guess what the "language of the air" is?
guess what the "language of the internet" is (what language are your URL's in)
guess where the most foreign students clamor for Student Visas from?
guess who the world has turned to when they need something?
who has rebuilt the most economies in the last 60 years (including your own German economy)?
what OS is your computer running? where did THAT come from? (god please let him say Linux)
where did this "internet" thing come from?
where IS the UN headquartered? (btw, you can HAVE the UN... take it... PLEASE)

WHO were you saying is the leader of the free world?
28

,

28/07/2008 16:11:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
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29

mike - across the pond,

sophomoric number 6 28/07/2008 16:13:06
number 6....

methinks thou dost quibble...

you know I was always taught that in a debate, quibbling is an early indicator of a lost argument.

did you KNOW what I was talking about?
and chose to argue minutae?
I wonder what rational people call that?

care to step up to the big peoples table and address the issues presented?

or are you quibbling again?

keep an open mind, just not so open that your brains fall out.
30

,

28/07/2008 16:25:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
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31

Gulliver,

Harare 28/07/2008 16:38:19
# 24,

Please do not try to lecture me on history. The Russians are not perfect, but American history is full of gross human rights violations and so this Big Brother attitude and arrogance are not warranted. You want us to look at the history? Fine:

-The violent dispossession of land belonging to the native Americans (ever heard of the Trail of Tears?). Someone raised a point about perception management- EXCELLENT POINT. When we watched western movies as kids I remember how the native Americans were portrayed as evil warmongers. Savages just out to get a caucasian man's scalp! Whenever we played cowboys and Indians you can guess which part everyone wanted to play.

Talk about the slave trade, over half a million people killed!! The fabric of whole civilizations destroyed.

How about Hiroshima & Nagasaki?

Iraq? The statistics on the dead & injured and the serious deterioration in living standards just make it impossible to think that America's foreign policy is good by any stretch of imagination.

I don't deny that there should be a mechanism to ensure good governance and democracy. However, it is the American hypocrisy, double-standards, and Big Brother attitute that some of us despise. During the Rhodesian era, the world agreed to put Rhodesia under economic sanctions but the Americans were busy propping up Smith's regime by buying Chrome from him.
A regime that was responsible for over 150,000 deaths!! A regime that used all sorts of evil to break the people of Zimbabwe- using "keeps" (Smith's version of concentration camps), bombing refugee camps in Zambia and Mozambique, and using biological warfare! (google and you will find it)

No, there is something wrong with the US foreign policy and people like Sen. John McCain need to look at the log in their eyes before trying to remove the splinter in other people's eyes. PLEASE NOTE- I DID NOT SAY THE SPLINTER SHOULDNT BE REMOVED.
32

mike - across the pond,

ah postmark 28/07/2008 16:43:48
I think you have lost sight of who the enemy is. and where your threats come from.

correct me if I am wrong here, you chinese are scared WITLESS of terrorism, why else all the security around the Olympics due to start in less than 2 weeks. It shouldnt be TOO hard to point out the foreigners afterall.

you think that it is just we Americans who have problems with the muslim extremists? LOOK AT INDIA, What is THEIR problem?

WHO are these terrorists? WHERE do they come from? WHY would they attack an event in CHINA? why would they pick THAT fight?

do you REALLY think that the US is your enemy? even if we were to elect some uber-right guy like Huckabee... or Pat Robertson (I'd have to think about voting for BO before I voted for EITHER of those whack-a-doos) the world NEEDS strong leaders, leaders who are not afraid to take TOUGH MEANINGFUL stands. and sometimes THAT menace requires a viable threat of military force.

look back at your own history, what do YOU think about Truman? Truman was an appeaser, he appeased Stalin, he appeased Mao, TWO generations chinese were lost... TWO generations were lost behind the "iron curtain", AND FOR WHAT? appeasement is really sad when you think about it in those terms.

finally your china is coming out from under the veil of marxism, its slow, but you debating here is example of that emergence. as you come out, you see your brothers across the sea in Taiwan who rejected the yoke of Mao. They are there, your acceptance by them shows how far your society has come. why very tough decisions had to be made, and why the moral fiber and resolute-ness of other world leaders is SO vital.
33

,

28/07/2008 17:28:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
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34

quaraing,

28/07/2008 17:30:41
Mike #24 and 27

As someone else pointed out; Czechoslovakia does not exist.

"guess what the "language of the internet" is (what language are your URL's in)"

Any language you want, see here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalized_domain_name

what OS is your computer running? where did THAT come from? (god please let him say Linux)

Linux, created by Linus Torvalds who is finnish, though I use Mandrake linux which is french.

"where did this "internet" thing come from?"

The network was designed in the US as a military project but the internet you use was created on August 6, 1991 at CERN, which straddles the border between France and Switzerland by an English scientist Tim Berners-Lee.

god, please let Mike be right one day



35

mike - across the pond,

gulliver 28/07/2008 18:00:54
I see you brought a knife to a gun fight, pal

THIS is too easy!!!

Trail of tears, OH PLEASE!
A) that was 170 years ago!
look at your OWN history, lets just take a little peek at the treaty of versailles, without that little gem, we have no hitler... need I mention china?
B) you get your US history from "westerns"
and you want to lecture ME?
C) I suppose you desire to deny that the sociological tactics of the US from 1770-1860 are directly tracable to EUROPE?
wow thats good

lets TALK about the slave trade...
EUROPE controlled the slave trade, by 1776 the slave trade TO the US was waning, and by 1820 there were NO more slaves imported to the US.
the founding fathers of america KNEW that slavery was evil, and (if you bothered to crack a history book) you would KNOW that the only reason that slavery was not outlawed initially, was that it was far too entrenched in the southern states, and that it was a necessary evil to keep the states united.

Hiroshima, Nagasaki... yep given the same circumstances I'd drop the bombs again... and if you had ANYTHING resembling a passing acquaintance with history, you wouldnt have even brought up THAT one.
36

mike - across the pond,

quaraing 28/07/2008 18:14:26
you lost it.... didnt you?

Czech's... did you miss the posting about quibbling, you KNEW what I was talking about... didnt you

Linux... the widely used version of linux in use for oh... the last TWENTY YEARS... would be GNU based... GNU... AMERICAN... LOOK IT UP...

Internantionalized domain names... masking ENGLISH domain names... DID you read your own link or are you just too dang stupid?

your "internet" posting... your ignorance is showing again... you are referring to the World Wide Web... the internet, which the WWW was built upon dates from 1985 with TCP/IP....

got anything else?

like I said before, dont bring a knife to a gun fight
37

we the people,

28/07/2008 18:37:40
founding fathers 'knew' slavery was evil? didn't stop them keeping slaves though did it?
and the fact that the american holocaust was 170 yaers ago does not mean it does not have effects in the present day - both in the life chances of the decendants of native americans, the institutional racism of u.s governing institutions, and the attitude of dismissive chauvinism towards people with different conceptions of what the social order is and should be that you and many of your compatriots display.
38

Media 1,

cape town 28/07/2008 19:02:42
McCain and his ilk have created so much savagery, chaos and turmoil in this world that it is difficult to see an end to the destruction and the human conflict they have created.
But if there is one beacon of hope for change, it is Obama.
McCain is sh!tting himself as are most on Capitol Hill. Obama is the man, he is going to be the next President of America
39

Media 1,

cape town 28/07/2008 19:07:30
We the people

I think you are speaking out a hole in your a$$.
Human beings are by nature explorers and when they deciced to see what was at the other end of the horizon it was inevitable there would be tears.
Worlds collide and when they do it usually the most advanced that leads the way, sets the trends and decides on the status quo. That is how it works, end of story.
But now we have Obama going for the top spot at the white house and that alone is testament to the hard work and tremendous effort that the American people have dedicated to a truly free society. So well done America in that regard.
Lets keep our fingers crossed and hope Obama wins. But not because he is black,rather because, he is BY FAR the best man for the job.
40

quaraing,

28/07/2008 19:18:08
#36 mike

"Czech's... did you miss the posting about quibbling, you KNEW what I was talking about... didnt you"

doesnt matter how much you want to quibble mike, you were wrong. You started typing while your brain cell was still asleep, and now your mistake is up there for all to see.

"Linux... the widely used version of linux in use for oh... the last TWENTY YEARS... would be GNU based... GNU... AMERICAN... LOOK IT UP..."

Just for you mike, here are the first two paragraphs from the official GNU website, http://www.gnu.org/

The GNU Project was launched in 1984 to develop a complete Unix-like operating system which is free software: the GNU system.

"GNU's kernel wasn't finished, so GNU is used with the kernel Linux. The combination of GNU and Linux is the GNU/Linux operating system, now used by millions. (Sometimes this combination is incorrectly called Linux)

Did you read this bit mike
"GNU's kernel wasn't finished, so GNU is used with the kernel Linux"
The kernel IS the Operating system, GNU only developed the utilities that run on top of it. If you had taken your own advice and looked it up you wouldn't look as stupid as you do now.....

"Internantionalized domain names... masking ENGLISH domain names... DID you read your own link or are you just too dang stupid?"

So your saying the urls HAVE to be typed in english??
What about this one;
http://www.premier-ministre.gouv.fr/en/acteurs/gouvernement/
its a french govt site mostly accessed by french people, makes sense for the url to be in french dont you think.
It's the same in Germany,Spain or anywhere else that they dont speak english.
The IDN allows for URLs written in languages that dont use the latin character set.

"your "internet" posting... your ignorance is showing again... you are referring to the World Wide Web... the internet, which the WWW was built upon dates from 1985 with TCP/IP...."

TCP/IP is a set of protocols(instructions) for switching data packets.
Lo
41

quaraing,

28/07/2008 19:18:44
cont'd

"your "internet" posting... your ignorance is showing again... you are referring to the World Wide Web... the internet, which the WWW was built upon dates from 1985 with TCP/IP...."

TCP/IP is a set of protocols(instructions) for switching data packets.
Love to see you make this website out of them. Really would. Or send an e-mail, go on, try it. If nothing else it will keep you away from these boards for the rest of your life and you wont keep making a fool of yourself in public.

As far as gun fights go,

Debating with you is tantamount to me having a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
42

mike - across the pond,

gulliver part 2 28/07/2008 20:32:25
Iraq...

so you are claiming that the Iraqis would prefer to be under the heel of Saddam Hussein? really? I dont know if that level of ignorance leaves anything else to be said

Zimbabwe... Rodesia... (you aught to watch using the "old" names for things, the quibblers will castigate you lol)...

all that aside... Rhodesia/Zimbabwe is MUCH more a UK issue than a US issue right up to 1980, when elections happened and Robert Mugabe took over... Correct me if I am wrong here, but Rhodesia was essentially in a revolutionary war with the UK the entire span of Smith's rule. you can argue that Rhodesia/Zimbabwe's reason for this state was aparthied, but Smith was a Rhodesian, and ultimately the transition to majority rule came and saw him serve in the minority party for 6 more years.

I find it interesting that after retirement in 1986 Ian Smith lived for nearly 20 years IN Zimbabwe and was quite critical of Mugabe without reprisal. He died of old age in 2007.

before you go there, I'm not backing Mugabe.
43

mike - across the pond,

the unarmed quaraing 28/07/2008 21:11:07
like to see you use the WWW without TCP/IP... you are correct in that it would be rather tedious to write and send an email using it, but it isnt difficult, I've done it MANY times, and it indeed might take YOU a lifetime to accomplish given your innate incapability to understand that quibbling is fruitless, you see machines dont care!!! you lose!!!

CZECH references.... again need I point out that you KNEW what I was talking about... and choose to quibble... you arent even arguing the point, just whether I used the current NAME... strike TWO

please take the time to READ YOUR LINK, all the "international domain names" are TRANSLATED to the inate language of the internet.... the ASCII character set... WHICH you will find is, predominantly ENGLISH posting french government sites utilizing the ASCII character set is QUIBBLING...

strike THREE...

take a seat...
44

Angus Coull,

San Francisco 28/07/2008 21:14:07
In response to post # 35 from Mike;

What makes you think the founding fathers knew that slavery was evil? Some of them, such as John Adams, were opposed to slavery. Some of them, however, were not only not opposed to slavery, they actually practised it. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were both slaveowners.

Most Black slaves in America at the time saw the British as their best hope for liberty, which is why many more blacks fought on the side of the British than fought on the side of the rebels.

To suggest that the leaders of the American revolution knew that slavery was evil is, at best, a gross generalisation.

45

mike - across the pond,

media1 28/07/2008 22:08:03
I've said many times...

BO is not what he is being sold as...

take his NON-visit to the troops at Landstuhl Army Hospital in Germany...

I dont care if the CINC is AtillaTheHun, the foot soldier doesnt get to pick his battles, he's just thrown into the meat grinder regardless of WHO the leader is... BO was there as a US Senator, travelling on the US Taxpayer nickel... His credability and FITNESS as the potential leader of the free world rode on his ability to have compassion for the men and women he will ask to stand in harms way.

BO was told that he could not bring his press entourage, that due to privacy of the soldiers he was welcome to come but the press would be denied entry. which has always been the stand of the military.

when W landed on the Lincoln, that was US Military press coverage feeds you were watching, not from the networks.

BO decided if Katie Couric, Brian Williams and the rest of his entourage were not welcome HE would not go....

HOW arrogant and compassionless can one man be?

BIG mistake.
46

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 28/07/2008 22:09:31
#39 Media 1

Nice post.

How come I agree with about half of what you post, and disagree with the other half?

But I like this one. Vive la difference.


47

mike - across the pond,

Angus 28/07/2008 22:25:20
Jefferson struggled with and wrote many things concerning the concepts of slavery and freed the last of his slaves upon his death.

As far as "most slaves supporting the british".... the best response to that is... "WELL DUH"... if my memory serves me, the industrial revolution was just getting underway in Europe, and slavery had just been outlawed on the british isles. This was propagandized to MAXIMUM advantage. However slavery was alive and well on most of the british colonies well beyond the american revolution. including the american ones which was also propagandized to MAXIMUM advantage, just to a different audience, the reasons for rebellion in the south were quite different from those in the north, and the revolution swung on a precarious ballance for most of the war.
48

quaraing,

28/07/2008 22:43:12
#43 mike

mike claims 3 of my correct answers are quibbling, not that they are wrong. He cant do that, he would have to disprove them. the 4th one he blanks altogether as he made a real pigs ear of it by telling me to look it up, then finding i was right when i did.

Here you go mike, no quibbling;
"like to see you use the WWW without TCP/IP... you are correct in that it would be rather tedious to write and send an email using it, but it isnt difficult, I've done it MANY times,"

Go here;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_protocol_suite
read the whole page, and find out why it is impossible to write an e-mail using TCP/IP.
Your wrong, deal with it.

You said; "guess what the "language of the internet" is (what language are your URL's in)

I said;here's one in french.
http://www.premier-ministre.gouv.fr/en/acteurs/gouvernement/
ascii is based on the roman character set, any language that uses it(most of them)can be written as an url. Your wrong again, deal with it.

You can use the word quibble as often as you like, but Czechoslovakia does not exist. Your wrong yet again, deal with it.

As for the GNU thing that you dare no mention again, Your wrong yet again, deal with it.

I'll finish with 2 observations for you.
1.When you get proved wrong You use the same nasty put downs as 57nomad does when it happens to him. Are you brothers or something? Maybe its the air across on your side of the pond?

2. One of homer simpsons great one liners, "pah! who needs english, i'm never going to england." Which is where the language you claim as yours comes from. Big parts of it are latin, french, norse, and german. Just remember that Mr American loser.
49

Angus Coull,

San Francisco 29/07/2008 00:11:35
Re. post # 47 Mike

Thomas Jefferson struggling with the issue of slavery is not the same as him KNOWING that slavery was evil. He freed his slaves long after the war of independence was over. I was disputing your original statement that the founding fathers knew that slavery was evil. This was clearly far from universally true at the time of the war of independence.

And yes, of course the British upheld slavery in other parts of the empire during the war. In fact they upheld slavery in parts of America too. loyalist American slaveowners didn't have to worry about the British freeing their slaves. I'm not disputing that the motives of the British in freeing slaves held by the rebels were anything other than pure cynical military strategy.

The point I'm making is that in practical terms, for Black American slaves at the time, it made complete sense to view the rebels as the greater enemies of freedom. During and immediately after the war, thousands of slaves were freed by the cynical British. None were freed by the rebels. Thomas Jefferson's troubled conscience was of no practical benefit to Black Americans at the time.
50

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 29/07/2008 00:52:55
#48 quaraing..Isn't your last line an insult? Are the only ones who can insult are you and the others? Only Americans are should not? The rules are for both sides of a debate.

Media1.. I think the savagery, chaos and turmoil has been created by Radical Esxtremists who insist on bombing towers, barracks, embassies, and ships etc. It
is only the appeasers and apologists who want to do nothing..which breeds evil.

#26 the biggest insult is to be as stupid and closed minded as you.
We don't have to vote for someone YOU want...we here vote for someone who WE want.
I don't want someone who appeases the "bad guy", I don't want someone who wants to raise taxes, and bailouts so that the small businessman suffers and can't get loans.

In a world where there is Hamas, Hezbollah, a Castro, Brown, Sarkozy, Merkel and a Medvedev, and a Putin, the world will accept a McCain as easily as they would accept an Obama..so stop the bs.
He told you want you wanted to hear, hasn't changed his position on anything (which doesn't make him right), he's been villified in the US on his stance on the surge, and for not visiting wounded American heroes, and I'll be damned if I will vote for someone who will give the "keys to the kingdom" away.
When you believe an ideology, you fight for that
ideology..not give in. There is no white flag and
the US will not give in unless Obama becomes President.
51

57Nomad,

california 29/07/2008 01:22:56
#48 quaing and # 26 pmk

in # 48 Quing said:

"1.When you get proved wrong You use the same nasty put downs as 57nomad does when it happens to him. Are you brothers or something? Maybe its the air across on your side of the pond?"

and in # 26 pmk says:

"It pains me to be the one to tell you this, but you're beginning to sound more and more like 57Nomad and Lynne, and that's the biggest insult anyone can throw at anybody. Sorry pal, but that's the message you're sending."


First of all I have to thank these two guys for continuing to illustrate the points I have been making about them for the few weeks these lightweight losers have been peeking around their mother's skirts to squeak at those with whom they disagree.

What is one of the things both of these posts (48 and 26) have in common? Demo:

#26 "You use the same nasty put downs as 57nomad does"

#48 "1. You use the same nasty put downs as 57nomad does."

Hmmmm, what, oh what, are we to make of this? The poster in #48 uses exactly the same ten words as poster #26. What can we conclude from this? The most obvious answer, and the one I lean toward, is that posters #26 and #48 are the same guy.

It is either that, or poster # 48 is a plagiarizer who, stuck for a clever line and unable to come up with one of his own, and mistakingly thinking that poster #26 was on to something, swiped what he thought was hot stuff only to later realize that it wasn't so hot after all. Xin loi.

And so, in the name of comity I will once again explain to you Mr. 26 and 48, the way you need to do it. Pay attention this time because it doesn't seem to be sinking in. No one cares about being insulted by another poster, it's just a challenge that one may respond to or not. But you are violating the rules of cordiality by wasting peoples time. Stop it. Do this instead. I'm going to rework your post, its easy to do, and fix it for you.

This is how you had it:

"When you get proved wrong You use the same
52

57Nomad,

29/07/2008 01:24:21
#51 contd


This is how you had it:

"When you get proved wrong You use the same nasty put downs as 57nomad does when it happens to him. Are you brothers or something? Maybe its the air across on your side of the pond?"

repaired:

"When you get proved wrong You use the same nasty put downs as 57nomad does when it happens to him, for instance the time I had to correct him when he asserted that I was so fat that other fat guys were orbiting around me. I am not and now he knows it. I sent him a photo of myself riding a bus and barely taking up more than one seat. Does that sound like a guy who is distorting the space/time continuum to you"?

This way you have countered my 'fatso' comment with evidence of your own. This is a substantive exchange. What you have said about me in the two posts contains nothing of substance and no one has anything but your word and it is possible that you may not be unbiased.

Got it????? First address an issue or idea that the poster has put forward, rebut it and then feel free to pour it on the ignorant dufus who disagreed with you. First though, you gotta come up with something solid. If you don't it makes you sound weak, whining, and juvenile.
53

Angus Coull,

San Francisco 29/07/2008 01:34:51
#50 'the US will not give in unless Obama becomes President'

Given that it looks more likely than ever that Obama will become president, I'm curious as to what you think will happen next, and how you'll deal with it. You make it sound like the very gates of hell will open if he wins. What do you think's going to happen? Given that he would have won the votes of most Americans, how would you view your fellow-Americans? Would you consider them to be appeasers aswell?

54

57Nomad,

california 29/07/2008 01:36:42
One more thing. Poster # 48 said, "Maybe its the air across on your side of the pond?"

So, there is strong evidence that not only are 26 and 48 the same guy or girl, whatever, but it is unlikely that this guy has never gotten closer to China than his occasional visit Fong's Garden of Double Happiness Restaurant.

The space between the US and China is taken up by what is called "The Pacific Ocean." But 26-48 uses the expression 'your side of the pond.' In this case the word 'pond,' is used to differentiate the Atlantic ocean from the Pacific. "On your side of the pond"? Nobody, nobody, refers to the Pacific Ocean as the "Pond." Nobody. Its about eight thousand miles across, it's not a pond. If you were in China you would never have used that expression and you know it. You're some high school kid playing grown-up. Nothing wrong with that, kid, but you gotta come on a little stronger.
55

57Nomad,

california 29/07/2008 01:49:30
#53 AC

good question:

"What do you think's going to happen? Given that he would have won the votes of most Americans, how would you view your fellow-Americans? Would you consider them to be appeasers aswell?"

Here it would be interesting to check history. America has a pacifistic and isolationist streak that goes back to the founding. Ralph Waldo Harrison was imprisoned for a night for refusing to pay taxes during the Mexican-American War. It was difficult to get the US into both world wars. The appeasers and the isolationists and pacifists are not necessarily the same people. Remember, Gandhi said that if passive resistance didn't work then a man who would not turn to force to end injustice was a coward. This was Gandhi!

An appeaser is a different animal altogether. An appeaser is a person who will give in to threats to avoid the consequences of confronting the threat. Pacifists serve with great distinction and conspicuous bravery as battlefield medics.

Appeasers are quite the opposite. They will feed human beings to the aggressor in the hopes he will have a full stomach when the bully turns his attention toward him.
56

,

29/07/2008 02:20:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
57

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 29/07/2008 02:24:54
#53 Angus..not according to the polls. The big bounce Obama had was a 2 day bounce. He leads by 1 pole 48-40..and in another poll he is behind by 4.
McCain is winning with women over 40, and Obama is leading with under 40,,these are notorious for NOT showing up at the polls.

It is a very close race.
58

,

29/07/2008 02:34:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
59

Guga II,

Rockall 29/07/2008 04:00:41
We want better AMERICAN behaviour internationally, and we have every right to expect it.

60

mike - across the pond,

quaraing.... the quibbler 29/07/2008 04:02:28
ah quaraing

speaking of pigs ears....

Heres the definition, you are obviously too lazy to look it up.... so....

quibble.... A petty distinction or an irrelevant objection.

TCP/IP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_layer
lol you said one couldnt write a webpage using TCP/IP...
its actually MUCH easier than I thought....
HTTP... is an application layer protocol... of TCP/IP...
99% of webpages ARE written in HTTP or a derivative thereof.
you would actually have a much more difficult time authoring a webpage in something OTHER than TCP/IP
or an email using TCP/IP... try pop3 or SMTP
you are a fool, you have stepped WAY out of your league, knowing little of what you argue
guess you really should have backed away when accused of quibbling... but like the saying goes Fools rush in.... argue with wikipedia please....

french sites... (or even chinese or cryllic language DNSs)
read your link.... pay SPECIAL attention to the parts where it talks about IDNA encoding and the examples it uses....
you lost the point, the INTERNET was invented by AMERICANS
you are quibbling, arguing the semantics of a point rather than the substance of the facts.

GNU....
give it a break pal, simply look it up
GNU is the singly most widely used "linux/unix" platform
and was invented by an american
however the point was Windows is the most widely used OS on the planet....
you are QUIBBLING

czech republic...
arguing the current name when you knew what I was talking about is
"A PETTY DESTINCTION OR AN IRRELEVANT OBJECTION"
QUIBBLING

quibbling is widely considered an HONOR infraction, I guess being chinese you have little honor to risk, do you?

(was that an insult?)

quibble away... my little friend
61

mike - across the pond,

angus 29/07/2008 05:09:51
dont confuse your access to information with the access that American slaves (black or otherwise) had during the american revolution.

the VAST majority of southern slaves were illiterate (by the hand of their masters), and basically isolated. their information was "word of mouth"...

this is a pretty enlightening site...

http://www.americanrevolution.com/AfricanAmericansInTheRevolution.htm

Adams was a northerner, opposed slavery
Jefferson a Virginian struggled, verbally opposing the concept
Washington also freed all his slaves upon his wifes death, going so far as to provide education and care for his former slaves
62

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 29/07/2008 06:57:13
#52 57Nomad

"repaired:

"When you get proved wrong"

....The correct word should have been "proven".

If you "repair" a submission repair it properly.
63

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 29/07/2008 07:04:55
Some of our soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq have sent e-mails home discussing how if a photo op wasnt available, like at the hospital, he (Obama) callously ignored them. A current quote concerning Obama's visit to Germany....

"Later, he decided not to visit wounded American soldiers at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in southern Germany. When the Pentagon informed Obama's campaign that the hospital would be closed to the press and campaign staff -- only the senator and his official staff would be allowed in -- Obama decided to cancel the event."

This man is like so many politicians, he serves the desires of his own belly and not the desires of the people. This man will bring nothing but sorrow this country.

64

quaraing,

Somewhere on Skye, it's an island of the scottish 29/07/2008 07:27:36
#51 no-man

no-man says;

"What is one of the things both of these posts (48 and 26) have in common? Demo:

#26 "You use the same nasty put downs as 57nomad does"

#48 "1. You use the same nasty put downs as 57nomad does."

Hmmmm, what, oh what, are we to make of this? The poster in #48 uses exactly the same ten words as poster #26. What can we conclude from this? The most obvious answer, and the one I lean toward, is that posters #26 and #48 are the same guy.

Look at #26 and there may be "exactly" ten same words, but there certainly isn't a line that goes
"You use the same nasty put downs as 57nomad does"

So no-man is once again completely wrong, something he shares with mike, but no-man needs to have a reason to slip in his nasty little put down, so he doesn't mind making it up as he goes along.

As for all the guff that followed it, you keep doing it your way son, but I have to warn you, you usually end up looking a complete pillock. That's why you have to keep hitting the report unsuitable button on my posts that show you up for the simpleton you are.
As for which side of which ocean I live on, a quick google of my name would have given you all the information you needed.

BTW I see your little friend lynne is right by your side as usual. Do you wear a dress when you are posting as her? You seem like the type, macho image but wears womens underwear around the house.

65

quaraing,

29/07/2008 07:46:10
#60 mike

mike cobbles lots of bits together and claims its one piece, looks quite good to mike, but one line stands out

"HTTP... is an application layer protocol... of TCP/IP..."

An application is a programme, like Word, excel, Internet Explorer, firefox, outlook... get the idea mike.
When data is transferred across the internet from the "application" running on your computer it's passed from the application layer down the TCP/IP stack and across the network and when it gets to its destination the reverse happens. You write and view webpages and e-mails with an application mikey boy. HTML= Hyper Text Markup Language....

get that mike "language" you can write things with it.

TCP/IP is a set of protocols (rules) for doing something. You cant write with them...

I notice from your latest rant that the similarity with no-man increases. When you know you have lost the arguement and have nothing concrete use, your post becomes one long stream of insults.
66

CombatVet68,

29/07/2008 07:48:40
#50 Lynne:

Still as blind as usual! You have no idea as to what you beleive, let alone some idiotic ideology which, if you do attain it, you and this entire country will lose everything you hold dear and precious to you.

Your alleged Christian roots are shallow indeed, for you forsake the teachings of Christ in exchange for fitting into the maintstream thought of the Prince of Darkness of this world. The spirit of deception reigns in the US now, and you have joined in with your whole heart.

Obama is an evil man, serving the desires of his own belly. He flip flops on issues, has no real compassion for anyone, and endorses the practices of evil which will soon bring Gods judgement against this nation.

In this utopia you have chosen, know that in this nation alone, 4,000 human fetus' are aborted every day. Obama endorces the legitimizing of the homosecual lifestyle, favoring same sex marriages. He is pro "partial birth abortion". Was the only senator to favor killing an new born baby once it surved the partial birth abortion procedure. And you support such an animal, a servant of his father Lucifer? You are indeed blind!
67

quaraing,

29/07/2008 07:58:13
#60 mike

"GNU....
give it a break pal, simply look it up"

I did, rembember, and quoted you the official GNU website description, the one that said GNU was built on the linux kernel
which was created by a finn.

"GNU is the singly most widely used "linux/unix" platform
and was invented by an american"

this was not your original claim, so basically you lost the argument and are now trying to twist it round to suit.


however the point was Windows is the most widely used OS on the planet....

The whole argument was about linux, more worthless spin from teh loser.

Here is another site, german this time, can find them in any language you want.
http://www.bundesregierung.de/

Ever been to England Mr "english"?

68

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 29/07/2008 08:05:16
#49 Angus

Slavery was first introduced to the colonies by the British, before the American Revolution. The practice took deep roots in the south, due principly to economics. It was cheap labor, to put it blunty.

The framers of the U S Constitution did not endorse the practice of slavery, even though some retained slaves for a time after our liberation from England. Thomas Jefferson was not a follower of Christ, wherein. out of the 52 signers of the U S Constitution, only 3 were not Christian in faith and beleifs. Jefferson was one of those three.

This nation was founded and deeply rooted in Christianity. It was not the early congress who cried out for seperation of church and state, but Jefferson who merely posed this concept in a political letter written to a pennsylvania constituency.

The true meaning of "Seperation of Church and State" was established to keep government out of the affairs of the church, not to keep our Divine and Omnicient Creator out of government and the affairs of men.

If you doubt this, research the facts. Read the Innaugural Address of the first 12 Presidents and you will not find one that does not invoke the guidance of God, our Creator. Read the U S Constitution and other early writings if you are not convinced.
69

quaraing,

29/07/2008 08:06:16
#60 mike

Just noticed this one

"99% of webpages ARE written in HTTP or a derivative thereof.

ROTFLMAO at this one.

HTTP= Hyper Text Transfer Protocol(set of rules), in this case the set of rules for sending webpages across the internet.

HTML= Hyper Text Markup Language, you write we web pages in HTML mike, go here and you can learn how to do it.

http://www.w3schools.com/html/default.asp



70

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 29/07/2008 08:19:38
#49 Angus

Common sense dictates that if the Colonies had forced the issue of freeing the slaves, at that time, it would have doubtless created a significant division within their own ranks, which they could ill afford to do.

I grew up with boys who were African-American, served in combat with many of them, and later worked with a great many black men, decent men, hard working, and not much different from all the rest of us (except skin color and culture) They all enjoyed liberties which were denied their forefathers, but none knew the sting of slavery. I am not denying that there are those ignorant whites who still look down upon the black man or woman. They spout their religious self righteous bigotry, beleiving the lie that they think they are so much better. But my Heavenly Father will judge all men by His standards, not by the standards of men.

Slavery, regardless the pigmentation of a mans skin, is cruel and unjust. Yet, how long will we, as a society, continue to bear the burden of the wrongs which were committed against the black man, while none who cry out against us have known the hopelessness of slavery? Let us all entreat each other with humility and civility, discriminating against none.
71

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 29/07/2008 08:37:07
CombatVet68..Please tell me what you are talking about. I don't want Obama for as president any more than you, I am at a loss for words for your post to me. Obviously you are on some drug of some kind.
Before you "lecture" me..I advise you to READ my posts.
72

Gulliver,

Harare 29/07/2008 08:42:00
# 35 Mike,

I have no doubt that if you were in the same position as Truman you would have done exactly the same thing (bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki) because you display exactly the same mentality.

"It was agreed that psychological factors in the target selection were of great importance. Two aspects of this are (1) obtaining the greatest psychological effect against Japan and (2) making the initial use sufficiently spectacular for the importance of the weapon to be internationally recognized when publicity on it is released."

Search for weapons that would be so devastating they would cow opponents into submission. Of such a spectacular effect the whole world would stand in awe. One could be forgiven for thinking the above quote was an extract from a Taliban or Alquaeda transcript!!

Such kind of reasoning is no different from the rationale extremists would use to justify actions like ramming planes into buildings or blow up embassies in Kenya and Tanzania IN THEIR OWN WAR AGAINST TERROR.

No doubt if we had an opportunity to see the deep secrets of the heart we wouldnt be surprised to learn that McCain is filled WITH GREAT ADMIRATION for men like Bin Laden and vice-versa. "Hard men who are not afraid to unleash unthinkable violence on their enemies!"

73

Gulliver,

Harare 29/07/2008 09:12:11
On your point about IRAQ, I believe that many Iraqis but obviously not all would have rather had Saddam in power than the American invasion. He had managed to bring stability in a region that was riddled with so many ethnic and religious tensions. For a good number of years Saddam was able to bring real economic development to his country by nationalising foreign owned companies.

Specific charges at Saddam's trial included the murder of 148 people, torture of women and children and the illegal arrest of 399 others. Compare that with the 14,298 civilians, 1,348 police, and 627 soldiers were killed in 2006 alone under the direct influence of uncle sam! The war's casualties are estimated at over 150,000 since the invasion, we're talking of over 35% children being orphans and unprecedented deterioration in the humanitarian situation not seen in Iraq since the 1950s. The statistics speak for themselves!!!
74

Number 6,

Germany 29/07/2008 09:25:28
66# "Obama is an evil man". Combat Vet68 can I ask you to go to Vietnam "veterans against john McCain", . See what you think then about who is "EVIL".

See how McCain has spent his whole political life fighting AGAINST the rights of vietnam vets , find out why, then ask yourself how could I, an ex serviceman , possibly support someone as awful as McCain.

Have you the courage, unlike so many others who come on here, to actually research this dreadful man,or are you all going to sleepwalk into the arms of yet another catastrophisc presidency.

WAKE UP!!!!!!. Before it's too late.
75

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 29/07/2008 13:56:40
McCain: "Iraq was now "a stable ally in the region".

http://news.scotsman.com/world/Carnage-in-Iraq-as-suicide.4332718.jp

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/29/world/middleeast/29iraq.html

http://www.dispatch.co.za/article.aspx?id=230227

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080729/NEWS07/807290329/1009

That's very perceptive old man!

76

,

29/07/2008 14:54:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
77

mike - across the pond,

gulliver... 29/07/2008 15:25:23
saddam hussein was prosecuted for a single incident
ONE

are you claiming that in his 25 years of tyrannical rule he only committed ONE single attrocity... rule where in the last decade he diverted "oil for food" resources to his own coffers IN SPITE OF HOW THOSE RESORCES WERE NEEDED by the very people he was SUPPOSED to be caring about... are THOSE really the blinders you choose to wear?

Saddam Hussein and his boys were simply GHOULS, Iraq their playgound comparing HIS reign with anything resembling what it took to dig them out is disingenuous at best...

if you are simply "doing the math" please include the death tolls in wars HE started... Iraq v Iran, Iraq v Kuwait... I wont even ask you to add up the #'s when we finally got involved...

Hitler was a "stablizing force"... from nothing he built Germany to be a step away from a world domination in TEN years... no one dared oppose his thugs

Pol Pot was a "stablizing force"... no one dared oppose his regime

Idi amin...

Stalin...

I'd mention the glorious Mao, but I'm sure I've made some punctuation error that our little yellow quibblers would sieze upon....

you cannot measure liberty by "stability"... they are totally unrelated metrics...
78

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 17:17:36
Is Mccain related to Dubya ? I think we should be told.
He recently claimed in a CBS interview, that the "surge" sparked the "Anbar awakening" which is credited with reducing the violence in Iraq. The "surge" actually took place after the "Anbar awakening". CBS edited this out for reasons best known to themselves,but were found out when a transcript was obtained.
He also doesn't realise that Czecholovakia no longer exists as it split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia in 1993.
Neither does he know the difference between Sunni and Shi'ite and relies on his wife to switch on his computer and send e-mails.
It's clearly time for some McCainisms websites to run alongside the endless Bushisms. Have a nice day y'all.
79

Angus Coull,

San Francisco 29/07/2008 18:10:02
#57 Lynne - Interesting, but this doesn't really answer my question to you - what will you do if Obama wins? Will you view your fellow-Americans as appeasers for voting for him?
80

Angus Coull,

San Francisco 29/07/2008 18:20:35
#61 Mike

I'm not confusing anything. If you were a black slave in America at the time of the war of independence, illiterate or not, it was pretty obvious which side your best hope of freedom lay with. Are you suggesting black slaves were wrong to side with the British? Do you believe they should have sided with their rebel masters? Why on earth should they have?

Again, the fact that George Washington freed his slaves at a later date was of no practical consequence at the time. And again, it does not mean that he KNEW slavery to be evil at the time. Do you still stand by your original statement that the founding fathers KNEW slavery to be evil? Do you really believe that this was even anything close to being universally true?



81

Angus Coull,

San Francisco 29/07/2008 19:00:05
#68 & #70 CombatVet68

'Slavery was first introduced to the colonies by the British, before the American Revolution'

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, I'm not suggesting the British weren't guilty of practising slavery. I was disputing Mike's claim that the founding fathers knew slavery to be evil. I was also pointing out that, in practice, during and immediately after the war of independence, the only side which brought freedom to at least some slaves was the British.

Yes, the USA was founded and deeply rooted in christianity. I'm not sure what you think that has to do with the issue we're discussing.

'Common sense dictates that if the colonies had forced the issue of freeing the slaves, at that time, it would have doubtless created significant division within their own ranks, which they could ill afford to do'

That's true. But common sense also dictates that black slaves were completely right to side with the British as a result. Why should the slaves have cared whether their masters rebellion was a success? They clearly had more to gain from siding with the British.

'Yet, how long will we, as a society, continue to bear the burden of the wrongs which were committed against the black man, while none who cry out against us have known the hopelessness of slavery?'

The only burden I'm suggesting we should bear is the burden of keeping history as accurate as possible. I was disputing Mike's belief that the founding fathers knew slavery to be evil. This is nowhere near to being universally true.

'Let us all entreat each other with humility and civility, discriminating against none.'

Well said, I couldn't agree more.
82

CombatVet68,

29/07/2008 23:09:11
#71 Lynn

From reading your post, It certainly appeared as though you were endorsing Obama for president? Sorry if my conclusion was faulty with regards to your intent.
83

CombatVet68,

29/07/2008 23:12:57
#74 Number 6:

If I have given you the inpression that I support McCain, please accept my apologies, for that is not my intention. I DO NOT support Obama or McCain! I feel that they are both left wing bleeding heart liberals. I merely said that McCain is the lesser of the two evils.
84

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 29/07/2008 23:28:40
#76 Gere:

Pardon me for saying so, but in truth, you are an idiot if you beleive the "fairy tale" you're spinning?
85

Gulliver,

Harare 30/07/2008 10:53:45
#77 Mike,

Thanks for answering my question. You do have some valid points. More people are estimated to have died from the Iran-Iraq conflict compared to the current American occupation.

And you do raise a valid point that we shouldn't confuse stability with liberty. Stability attained through repression is just postponed instability.

However, before diving in to become the saviour of all it is important that American foreign policy fully appreciates the complexities of the situation and not just go in and create a mess of things.
86

Gere,

Scotland 30/07/2008 15:03:14

Post#84 CombatVet68 New Babylon

You lack the intellectual capacity along with the necessary qualifications to diagnose idiocy in anyone.

I believe you are gullible enough to even accept the theology of the Holocaust as well!

Read Professors Mearsheimer and Walt two American academics whose research exposes the fact that AIPAC as Israel's proxy in America directs American foreign policy!!!

As for fairy tails, do not forget that Abraham was a Bedouin tribesman from Ur, Ur is not in Europe. It was located in Asia. As Christ was descended from Abraham, you and many Americans worship an Asian God. This is an historical reality, not a fantasy!!! The Bible is the singlemost most successful Jewish propaganda ever written!

Americans fail to realise that the Jews spring from the same genetic stock as their Semite brothers and Sisters, the Palestinians! However, because of your belief that they are the "Chosen People" you are willing to submit to their dictates!!
87

Gere,

Scotland 30/07/2008 15:17:51
Post#84 CombatVet68,New Babylon


Please note the censorial power of the Jewish community.

The Scotsman, acting on Jewish demands to control what people are allowed to read have complied by censoring my Post# 76.

This censorship constitutes the ultimate proof of the fact that Israel controls even the Scotsman's moderator of this column and validates all I have written.
88

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 30/07/2008 18:10:12
#79..What will I do? How will I view my fellow Americans? As War tired, as "taken in" by a Democrat, who was wooed, and courted by the elite media who cared about what he wore, and how shallow he is.
You know that note he put into the Wailing Wall in Israel? Supposedly it had disappeared and was "leaked" to the media. Well now, the Media has told us that Obama's campaign manager or who ever, with his permission, GAVE it to the media.
His entire trip abroad was a choreographed campaign. Why, should matter to him, because Europe doesn't vote for him, other than making him LOOK presidential.
He arrived, in Afghanistan, blew off the troops, talked to a 2 Star Gen, and had very little interaction with the troops at all.
It was all photo ops for him.
Slowly, but surely I am hoping that America wakes up to this and more. He is narcisstic and dangerous.
89

mike - across the pond,

angus 30/07/2008 19:05:06
call me polly anna.... lol

Slavery was the rule of the day in british colonial america, all of the founding fathers were much more intimately familiar with slavery than either you or I. their "mindsets" were of a completely different time, judging 18th century people by 21st century standards is really not fair.

I liken what the founding fathers KNEW about slavery to what you and I KNOW about alcohol, tobacco, oil, some would even claim religion, or even things like heroin (pick your vice). you may KNOW it is not good, but that doesnt necessarily mean you can walk away from it. some can, some cant.

we hear that "slave owners" were a brutal despotic lot, and I will not deny that some were. HOWEVER, there are 3 points I would like to bring up,
1) a "slave" represented a rather large investment, if you are an adequate businessman, are you going to treat your investment well, or poorly?
2) MOST americans could not even begin to afford the "luxury" of having even a single slave.
3) after the civil war, a good number of slaves stayed where they were, working at the "jobs" they worked at before they were emancipated.
90

Angus Coull,

San Francisco 30/07/2008 20:26:05
#88 Lynne

Whereas McCain's campaign presumably isn't choreographed in any way for propaganda value? McCain isn't trying to appear presidential? I struggle to think of any presidential candidate in recent times who hasn't had his campaign carefully choreographed and controlled by advisors. If that's your case for not voting for Obama, it's an argument against voting for virtually any politician.

Do you believe nobody has ever been 'taken in' by a Republican media campaign? Is trickery and spin the sole property of Democrats?

And what will you do if Obama wins?

91

Angus Coull,

San Francisco 30/07/2008 21:46:28
#89 Mike

I'm not judging anybody. I'm disputing your statement that the founding fathers knew slavery to be evil. How do you know they knew this?

People can walk away from their vices. It may not be easy and it may involve large sacrifices, but unless the person is actually mentally ill in some way there is always a choice. Sometimes I manage to walk away from my vices, sometimes I don't. In both cases, I am responsible for the choices I have made.

I hold the founding fathers responsible for the choices they made, this is not the same thing as judging them. The cultural traditions of the time may mitigate their crimes, but they do not excuse them.

'a "slave" represented a rather large investment, if you are an adequate businessman, are you going to treat your investment well, or poorly?'

I'm not sure why you put the word slave in quotation marks. There is no quotation mark about it. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were slaveowners. Their slaves were real slaves. They weren't "slaves" in quotation marks. The conditions they were kept in does not excuse their enslavement. Slavery is inherently barbaric, it is a crime against freedom.

'MOST americans could not even begin to afford the "luxury" of having even a single slave.'

What does that have to do with what we're talking about?

'after the civil war, a good number of slaves stayed where they were, working at the "jobs" they worked at before they were emancipated.'

Which civil war? the 1st one or the 2nd one?
I presume you mean the 2nd one 1861-1865?

If you do then yes, you're right. After emancipation many former-slaves carried on working for their former masters as paid employees. It probably made economic sense to both parties to enter into such an arrangement. I'm not sure what point you're making here?
92

57Nomad,

31/07/2008 01:49:45
#62 LHTT

lhtt said:

"#52 57Nomad
"repaired:
"When you get proved wrong"
....The correct word should have been "proven".
If you "repair" a submission repair it properly."

WHAT!?!?!?! Get a dictionary, dumbass. Sheesh!
93

57Nomad,

california 31/07/2008 02:27:41
#50 Lynne

"There is no white flag and
the US will not give in unless Obama becomes President."

Lynne are you surprised by the number of posters who know nothing about the American political system? These posters either are letting their wishes cloud reality or they are not aware of American polling methods.

For those not aware, American polls are derived from two data bases. One is a poll of registered voters. These are all citizens registered to vote. It is not particularly accurate for many good reasons. The second data base is likely voters. These are people who make a habit out of voting. It is much more predictive. McCain is even with the registered voters and is ahead among likely voters. Barak will be lucky to carry five states.
94

57Nomad,

31/07/2008 02:51:55
#34 quar

quar said:

"Linux, created by Linus Torvalds who is finnish, though I use Mandrake linux which is french.

"where did this "internet" thing come from?"

I'm especially surprised by the Linux deal. Sure you know that Linux was not "invented." Do you know what Linux is a contraction of?. It is Linus (Torvalds first name) and Unix. Unix was developed in the by Bell Labs (Bell labs is also where transistors were invented) in 1969. Saying that Torvald 'created' linux is like saying Boeing invented the airplane. Linux is a great boon, I love it, but it is nothing but a modification of the system created by Bell Labs.

For the Internet, you are using an excusable but inaccurate interpretation. There is a difference between the Internet and the World Wide Web. DARPA, a department of defense think tank created the Internet. Berners-Lee created the World Wide Web. They are not the same thing. The tcp/ip protocols developed for DARPA are still used today. The Internet/World Wide Web revolution is one of great accomplishments of the English speaking people. There should be no sniping at the contributions of either the US or Britain. Couldn't have happened without both.




95

,

20/12/2008 00:49:35
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