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Iran threatens to set Israel ablaze as fears grow of US-backed war

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Published Date: 09 July 2008
IRAN has issued a strident warning that it would "set on fire" Israel and target the US navy in the Persian Gulf as its first response to any American attack over its nuclear programme.
Rising tension in the area where Iran and the United States are both carrying out military exercises have contributed to driving oil prices to record highs.

Bizarrely, the sabre-rattling and psychological warfare conducted by both sides comes against the backdrop of an ongoing diplomatic initiative to resolve the Iranian nuclear crisis.

Iran on Friday gave a non-committal response to a three-week-old international offer of incentives if Tehran curbs its nuclear programme. The long-awaited reply pointedly refused to address the key demand: that Tehran suspends uranium enrichment.

But Javier Solana, the EU's foreign policy chief, who delivered the offer, was sufficiently encouraged by a professed Iranian desire for further negotiations to agree to meet later this month with Iran's top nuclear negotiator, Saeed Jalili.

Iran's latest warning of how it would retaliate carried more weight than usual because it was delivered by an aide to the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

"The first US shot on Iran would set the United States' vital interests in the world on fire," said Ali Shirazi, a mid-ranking cleric who is Khamenei's representative to the naval forces of Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards. "Tel Aviv and the US fleet in the Persian Gulf would be targets that would be set on fire in Iran's crushing response," he said.

Mr Shirazi spoke as the Revolutionary Guards launched a new round of war games – dubbed Great Prophet III – to "improve combat capability". The US on Monday launched "Exercise Stake Net" in the Persian Gulf aimed at "ensuring a lawful maritime order".

Washington has vowed that Iran will never be allowed to block the Strait of Hormuz, the narrow entrance to the Gulf through which 40 per cent of the world's oil exports flow. Iran, in its strongest declaration yet that it would use oil as a weapon, threatened at the weekend to block the strait if attacked, and said it would rain "fatal blows" against enemy vessels with "the most advanced missiles".

Choking off the strait would not be without cost to Iran itself. Iranian oil exports, vital to its economy, pass through the waterway which Tehran, because it lacks refining capacity, also relies on for importing 40 per cent of its petroleum and kerosene imports. Closing the strait could trigger an energy crisis in Iran.

Iran has already dismissed the US or Israel military posturing as mere "psychological warfare".

Tehran's latest military rhetoric appears designed to heighten American concerns that an attack on Iran – which George Bush, the US president, refuses to rule out – could be disastrous. Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, warned last week that with fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, opening a "third front" against Iran would be "extremely stressful" and "very challenging" for US forces, "with consequences that would be difficult to predict".

But there is growing speculation that Israel could go it alone in attacking Iran's nuclear facilities. Israel recently launched large-scale military exercises that appeared to be a practice run in striking at Iran. Tehran has already made clear that any Israeli attack using US-made warplanes in US-controlled airspace would be considered as an act of war by Washington.

Yesterday's bellicose talk from Tehran appears to have been intended to intensify the debate in Washington about the wisdom of giving Israel a green light to attack Iran.

Washington finds mixed messages from Tehran intriguing

HIGHLIGHTING a power struggle in Iran over finding a way forward, Tehran has sent mixed signals to the incentives package offered by the US, Britain, Russia, China, France and Germany.

Iran's hardline president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has struck a typically defiant stance, insisting Tehran would never suspend uranium enrichment.

Yesterday, at a conference of Muslim nations in Malaysia, he said he did not see the possibility of a war with the US or Israel, dismissing military threats by the two countries as a "funny joke".

But other influential hardliners have spoken optimistically that a compromise can be found.

Washington, which usually dismisses conflicting messages from Iran as playing for time, now appears more intrigued than suspicious.

It seems that from "the varying public responses from various parts of the Iranian government that there is clearly a debate… on how to respond," Sean McCormack, the US State Department spokesman, said.

Some Iranian analysts believe Tehran is sincere in wanting to negotiate to eliminate any risk of an Israeli or US attack for the rest of the hostile Bush administration. Iran's sights are set on better relations with Washington if Barack Obama wins the White House.

Iran's foreign minister, Manouchehr Mottaki, hinted at this strategy in a recent CNN interview. "We hear new voices in America… and we think that the rational thinkers in America can, based on these new approaches, seek reality as it is. We are ready to help them in this endeavour."

Professor Gary Sick, an Iran expert at Columbia University in New York, told The Scotsman: "If there really is a power struggle going on in Iran, you should look at the positive signals which are coming from the people who really want change over the objections of the president."

The full article contains 905 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 08 July 2008 10:01 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Iran
 
1

Scullion,

Canada 09/07/2008 01:27:22
Each side has to posture if only to appease the hardliners in their repective camps. Let the talks continue and we may well see a breakthrough as has happened in North Korea.
2

,

09/07/2008 02:43:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
3

,

09/07/2008 03:08:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

,

09/07/2008 03:24:05
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5

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 03:47:33
Rosie's Opinion,
USA 09/07/2008 03:24:05

//Dukov wrote "May your house be destroyed by the next natural disaster"//

"You are one sick troll."

Meanwhile ... the Epileptic Prophet Mohammad 09/07/2008 02:43:44

" When Iranian citizens are feeling the pain of war they will turn against their government.....I vote for bombing Iran."

Wants to kill citizens...
6

W Smith,

Middle East 09/07/2008 03:56:52
"the hostile Bush administration"

Interesting.

This journalist doesn't remember Hillary Clinton's threat made just weeks ago.

She's a left wing Democrat - so thats okay then?

BTW
Women in Iran get stoned to death and hanged from mobile cranes in public to initmidate other females who dare to 'step out of line'.

I supoose thats Bush's fault, Israels fault, the neocons fault, Mossads fault, CIA's fualt, blah blah blah

Lets blame every one except the mullahs then eh?
7

Guga II,

Rockall 09/07/2008 04:16:38
#7. Why bring up irrelevancies? If the septics or their paid lackeys, the Israelis, attack Iran, they are entitled to retaliate. Or are you suggesting that they should just sit quietly while the bully boy septics bomb their country?
8

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 04:33:02
W Smith,
Middle East 09/07/2008 03:56:52

//"the hostile Bush administration"//

"Interesting"

Yes, especially the bit about starting an un-called for war in Iraq, based on lies and deceit.

"This journalist doesn't remember Hillary Clinton's threat made just weeks ago"

She started a war?

"BTW Women in Iran get stoned to death and hanged from mobile cranes in public to initmidate other females who dare to 'step out of line'....I supoose thats Bush's fault, Israels fault, the neocons fault, Mossads fault, CIA's fualt, blah blah blah....Lets blame every one except the mullahs then eh?""

Blah blah blah indeed, no-one has blamed them for your un-sourced allegations. Nor is anyone defending 'the mullahs'... Got any more straw, Pajero?

BTW How about Saudi Arabia, they're just as repressive....
9

Auntie Christ,

axis of evil 09/07/2008 05:31:51
chatnic
Do you believe that Australia can absorb a large influx of Muslims and have them comply with the laws of your land? I’m not talking about the jihadists but those that represent the vast majority of Muslims who do not engage in violence. In the US I’ve know Christians, Catholics, and Protestants all my life. Some people have described a group of Catholics as cafeteria Catholics; they pick and choose which parts of their religion they want to obey. Most of the Christians I know talk the talk but they don’t walk the walk, not so the Muslims I know, they take their religion much more seriously and from what my limited understanding of it is there are many aspects that are just not compatible with western culture, or any other come to think of it. They seem very unwilling to compromise the world view their religion teaches them, so how do you reconcile these disparate points of view? Should countries like the US, Australia, Germany, Britain and France engage in a two tiered system of government to accommodate Muslims? At this point that seems the only way to achieve peaceful coexistence.
10

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 05:46:39
Auntie Christ,
axis of evil 09/07/2008 05:31:51

"Do you believe that Australia can absorb a large influx of Muslims and have them comply with the laws of your land?"

We have. It has only been in the last few years that issues have arisen, on the coat tails (tales) of escalated Western interference in the M East.

" I’m not talking about the jihadists but those that represent the vast majority of Muslims who do not engage in violence."

We have. Muslims were instrumental in the opening up of white Australia.

" In the US I’ve know Christians, Catholics, and Protestants all my life"

No Muslims???

" Some people have described a group of Catholics as cafeteria Catholics; they pick and choose which parts of their religion they want to obey."

Same with most religions and followers.

" Most of the Christians I know talk the talk but they don’t walk the walk, not so the Muslims I know, they take their religion much more seriously and from what my limited understanding of it is there are many aspects that are just not compatible with western culture, or any other come to think of it."

Then you know very little of Muslim history in countries around the world, including most likely, as you seem never to have known any Muslims, your own.

"They seem very unwilling to compromise the world view their religion teaches them, so how do you reconcile these disparate points of view?"

Er what disparate P'sOV?

"Should countries like the US, Australia, Germany, Britain and France engage in a two tiered system of government to accommodate Muslims?"

Strange, Beth Din are rabbinical courts in operation in the UK for over a hundred years. Do you have a problem with our Jewish law being written into the program?

"At this point that seems the only way to achieve peaceful coexistence"

And why is it a problem to expand a society's laws to accommodate the harmless religious laws, especially when it only relates to private matters?
11

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 05:49:40
Auntie Christ,
axis of evil 09/07/2008 05:31:51


My error on you not knowing any Muslims. Or was that inclusion just an afterthought?
12

Auntie Christ,

axis of evil 09/07/2008 06:01:27
chatnic
I think you may have overlooked the line "not so the Muslims I know" which were predominantly “black” Muslims – as they preferred to be described. In recent decades I’ve come to know Muslims from all over the world including Egypt, Pakistan and some of the Arab countries. You seem well informed about Islam and I wonder if you have knowledge of the “Black” Muslims here in the US? It always seemed to me there was some friction between the Muslims I knew from other countries and the “Black” Muslims I worked with, any insights? In any event you've told me more than you could know and I thank you for it. Honesty is always best!
13

yockel,

09/07/2008 06:09:51
#2 - the Mullahs incorrigible and vain ambitions to influence the mid east - When did George become a Mullah?
As for the Iranians turning against their government, that would be like the Iraqis turning against the US as soon as they realised they were a bunch of plundering freeloaders not liberators.
14

Auntie Christ,

axis of evil 09/07/2008 06:15:58
chatnic
Referring back to #11 it would seem then the two tiered system, and the example you gave: “Beth Din are rabbinical courts in operation in the UK for over a hundred years.” would be, as you point out, already an accepted part of English law and what you would advocate for other countries who are receiving Muslim immigrants into their countries - I know that Canada, my neighbor to the north is considering incorporating Sharia law into their legal system as we write.
15

chatnic,

09/07/2008 06:29:07
Auntie Christ,
axis of evil 09/07/2008 06:01:27

"I think you may have overlooked the line "not so the Muslims I know""

See 12.

"You seem well informed about Islam.."

Yes...

" and I wonder if you have knowledge of the “Black” Muslims here in the US? "

Yes...

"It always seemed to me there was some friction between the Muslims I knew from other countries and the “Black” Muslims I worked with, any insights?"

In all likelihood the same as friction between any number of other groups.

"In any event you've told me more than you could know.."

I've only told you what I've told you and I know what I've told you.

Auntie Christ,
axis of evil 09/07/2008 06:15:58

"Referring back to #11 it would seem then the two tiered system, and the example you gave: “Beth Din are rabbinical courts in operation in the UK for over a hundred years.” would be, as you point out, already an accepted part of English law and what you would advocate for other countries who are receiving Muslim immigrants into their countries - I know that Canada, my neighbor to the north is considering incorporating Sharia law into their legal system as we write"

lthough the fear, war and hate mongers would like people to see it otherwise, it's actually not a big deal.
16

Auntie Christ,

axis of evil 09/07/2008 06:53:23
chatnic
I've not posted on this forum in over a year so forgive me if you've already shared this information but it strikes me the only people I've met that have the depth of knowledge you posses regarding Islam are Muslims and your responses seem familiar in that the conversations I’ve had with Muslims here have a similar construct. I wonder, and I completely understand if you would prefer anonymity, if your knowledge is first hand? Would you happen to be Muslim yourself? If not are you and educator? The reason I ask is your comment: “Strange, Beth Din are rabbinical courts in operation in the UK for over a hundred years. Do you have a problem with our Jewish law being written into the program?” took me totally off guard; I would guess there are only a small percentage of people who are aware of that fact. It’s been an enlightening “chat” er chatnic thanks very much.
17

Auntie Christ,

axis of evil 09/07/2008 07:02:49
chatnic
Where's my manners you may ask? #17 should have ended with a :-) I correct myself.
18

Dukov Norfolk,

The Palace 09/07/2008 07:25:25
#4 Rosie's Opinion

"You are one sick troll".

....and you are someone who delights in the bombing and miseries of innocent human beings. Proof of this are your postings that support torture and the calamitous invasion of Iraq which has resulted in more than a million dead and another million seeking refuge in neighbouring countries.

I see you support the "Epilectic Prophet" who is itching to duplicate the situation in Iran.


19

Jay Kay,

09/07/2008 07:32:37
I vote that the american people bomb George Dubya straight out of office asap.
20

aljok.23,

the world 09/07/2008 07:43:54
I rattle my sabre at all who threaten my world
21

Auntie Christ,

axis of evil 09/07/2008 07:49:53
Jay Kay #20
It wouldn't change a thing! Will you be surprised if Obama is elected president and STAYS in Iraq? The biggest and most expensive Embassy in the history of the world is being built in Iraq by the US, do you think President Obama will be allowed to withdraw? Dream on.
22

Silence of the Yams,

09/07/2008 08:11:41
I'd be very surprised if Bush left office without eliminating the Mullah's illegal enrichment. Their rhetoric is as empty as their fake religion.
23

Louis Catorze,

09/07/2008 08:14:35
#11....yep., Beth Din does exist in our country, but the most important point to make that if disputes arise, or the judgement of the court is not acceptable to either party, it is then English(or Scottish) law that takes over.

So there is still not a two tier system in this country despite what you and others may think.
24

Iain's,

09/07/2008 08:34:31
America will do anything to get oil prices up to $200 a barrel.
25

tommy,

belfast uk 09/07/2008 09:14:36
There is no doubt that iran wants to exterminate Israel and so would all the other arab countries,but this is an islamic thing from the koran not a palestinian thing as the arabs would have you believe,in fact the most gullible amongst us think that it has something to do with that political arab football referred to as palestine
However
Israel as one of the most terrorised states in the world has the most experience of islamic obfuscation,she cannot afford to sit on her laurels in this matter,she should act decisively
It is sad that ignorance of islam still prevails despite its best efforts to show us otherwise
Leaflets are being handed out by some muslims that include the statement as follows
Quote ..."All the laws of Kufr need to be eradicated and replaced by the laws of Allah immediately. We are commanded to implement Islam in every aspect of our lives and carry it to the whole world via Jihad so that we may succeed in this life under the domain of Dar-ul-Islam and in the hereafter in Jannah-tul-Firdous Inshallah." Unquote
http://tinyurl.com/6r3h49

Now that's what I call integrating
not to mention the fact that
the Universal Declaration of Human Rights has been modified by the un human rights council to forbid the discussion of human rights violations committed under sharia law
a point of information
Quote..Muslims were instrumental in the opening up of white Australia..Unquote.... a misquote from the meathead sheikh.. Sheikh Taj Aldin al-Hilali who said on egyptian tv

that white Australians arrived in the country shackled as convicts.

"We (Muslims) came as free people. We bought our own tickets. We are entitled to Australia more than they are," he said.
26

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 09:23:50
17
Auntie Christ,
axis of evil 09/07/2008 06:53:23

"I've not posted on this forum in over a year so forgive me if you've already shared this information "

This is the first day I've posted on this service.

"but it strikes me the only people I've met that have the depth of knowledge you posses regarding Islam are Muslims and your responses seem familiar in that the conversations I’ve had with Muslims here have a similar construct."

Education and an interest in religion/s even though I am a devout atheista.

" I wonder, and I completely understand if you would prefer anonymity.."

I'd prefer to be known, except where I have indulged in that fantasy, I've received threats to my person and slanderous statements which ended only on my pursuit of legal proceedings against the perpetrators.

"....if your knowledge is first hand?"

Through education, extensive travel in Muslim countries and thankfully, erudite and well informed parents.

" Would you happen to be Muslim yourself?"

No I wouldn't.

" If not are you and educator?"

At times.

" The reason I ask is your comment: “Strange, Beth Din are rabbinical courts in operation in the UK for over a hundred years. Do you have a problem with our Jewish law being written into the program?” took me totally off guard"

Why?

" I would guess there are only a small percentage of people who are aware of that fact."

It has been known for about a hunded years.

"It’s been an enlightening “chat” er chatnic thanks very much"

OK.
27

Houssine,

Nanterre 09/07/2008 09:36:22
I think the next chalenge for america is Iran.Today , whitout doubdt was the "gendarme of the world".She have a presence in Irak, Afghanistan,...and want to devlop a missiles systemes of defense in east europes but Moscou was opposed of that project.

Than , america have posed hemself as the leaders of the world, in space whit the conquet of planet mars....

We can remark his politic have many echecs ...they are not Palestinien stat at today, al quaeda and his leaders was alive, the war in Irak and Afghanistan was not ended and they are more and more attaks from the talibans against the coalition...

Al Maliki ,who are considered by many as a puppet in the hands of america, reclam today from america a calendar for whitdrawal american troops from Irak , what america don't want to speak...

For Iran they are an increase in provocation and it's possible the war will be happening fellow an incident between american army in the region and iranien army...

We can think a war against Iran will be disastrous for international economy .
And the issus of the war will be absolutly uncertain.

Today is difficult to known who will be next US president who can take this responsibility? Mac Cain ? Obama ?
Now america have 150,000 soldiers in Irak and 60,000 in Afghanistan.
And why america think Iran will be produce the nuclear weapons and than will be give it to "Hizb-Allah" ??
28

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 10:00:31
26
tommy,
belfast uk 09/07/2008 09:14:36

"There is no doubt that iran wants to exterminate Israel .."

There's been no mention of 'Israel'. The Zionist regime. A regime is not a country.

"and so would all the other arab countries"

er that's 'A'rab countries..

"but this is an islamic thing.."

'I'slamic

"from the koran .."

'K'oran.

"...not a palestinian thing "

'P'alestinian..

"...as the arabs.."

'A'rabs..

"...would have you believe,in fact the most gullible amongst us think that it has something to do with that political arab football

'A'rab..

"... referred to as palestine"

'P'alestine...

"However Israel ..."

Weird, your shift key works when you type 'I'srael..

Say, you're not one of those ghastly posters who purposefully derides Arabs, Palestinians, Muslims by purposefully lowercasing their names are you?

"..as one of the most terrorised states in the world has the most experience of islamic.."

'I'slamic

"... obfuscation,she cannot afford to sit on her laurels in this matter,she should act decisively.."

Israel doesn't act decisively? Strange, Israel retaliates with overwhelming force, carries out extra-judicial killing, collective punishment, builds walls on Palestinian land and continues to build illegal settlements in the Occupied Territories.

"It is sad that ignorance of islam .."

'I'slam..

"..still prevails"

Yes, why do you perpetrate this ignorance?

".. despite its best efforts to show us otherwise"

Like your ignorant practice of lower casing Arab, Muslim, Islam, Palestine?

"Leaflets are being handed out by some muslims ..'

'M'uslims

"..that include the statement as follows
Quote ..."All the laws of Kufr need to be eradicated and replaced by the laws of Allah immediately. We are commanded to implement Islam in every aspect of our lives and carry it to the whole world via Jihad so that we may succeed in this life under the domain of Dar-ul-Islam and in the here
29

MisterN,

Scotland 09/07/2008 10:15:34
War in Iraq, war in Afganistan war starting between Afganistan and Pakistan and now these f*cking morons want to go into Iran and look at how many f*ckwits come on here with their support for it.
Can somebody tell me what part Iran Iraq and Afganistan played in the 9/11 attack?
Complete with the evidence of course.
Remember the 9/11 attack by Saudis? that is what all of this is supposed to be about now how many of you can tell me you still believe this?

26
"There is no doubt that iran wants to exterminate Israel"

Based on what evidence? The only threats Iran have made are to threaten to retaliate. Israel on the other hand is the one threatening to attack Iran but only because it has the US to back it up.
The pair of them are completley out of control and have no respect nor inclination to act within international law.

"Israel as one of the most terrorised states in the world"

Relative to who? Iraq? Iran? Afganistan? Gaza? the West bank?

Israel and the US have lost the plot completely we are now well on our way to a global war which may even eclipse WW2 and all you f*cks can post is lies and bullsh*t in support of it.

I suggest you start praying to whatever God you believe in before we all end up meeting him or her in person.
30

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 10:16:42

Houssine,
Nanterre 09/07/2008 09:36:22

"america"

'A'merica! Like 'N'anterre in 'F'rance!

"I think the next chalenge for america is Iran."

American dependency on oil is the greatest challenge to the USA


"We can think a war against Iran will be disastrous for international economy.."

Most certainly.

"Today is difficult to known who will be next US president who can take this responsibility? Mac Cain ? Obama ?"

Neither, they will be subjected to the same pressures from their oil dependent economy, no matter who is elected. America's greatest fear is itself, citizen turning on citizen, because the machine runs out of fuel.

"And why america think Iran will be produce the nuclear weapons and than will be give it to "Hizb-Allah" ??"

The leaders know this is not true. It's pure propaganda for the gullible.

31

,

09/07/2008 10:18:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
32

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 10:22:10
26
tommy,
belfast uk 09/07/2008 09:14:36

Continued

"..that include the statement as follows
Quote ..."All the laws of Kufr need to be eradicated and replaced by the laws of Allah immediately. We are commanded to implement Islam in every aspect of our lives and carry it to the whole world via Jihad so that we may succeed in this life under the domain of Dar-ul-Islam and in the hereafter in Jannah-tul-Firdous Inshallah." Unquote

http://tinyurl.com/6r3h49

Jihad, in it's strictest sense, is a personal endeavor to adhere to and protect Islam, especially in the Islamic world, which of course is wherever Muslims find themselves.

http://usa.mediamonitors.net/headlines/strangers_muslims_living_outside_dar_ul_islam_rights_and_obligations

Dârul-Islâm, "Realm of Islam where Islamic norms and values are valid so that a Muslim can feel safe and at home even though he is not yet familiar with the language and culture;

Dârul-Harb, the "Realm of War" where a hostile attitude against Muslims is to be expected;

Dârus-Sulh, the "Realm of a Legal Order or Peace" where a public order is prevalent in which Muslims can find a safe place. Traditional models for these three cases would be Madina, Makkah and Abyssinia, respectively, during the early period of Islam.

Further to the article you linked...

http://www.thisisthesentinel.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=158767&command=displayContent&sourceNode=158593&contentPK=21037265&folderPk=87654&pNodeId=158324

//"The police have copies of all our leaflets and they have never pointed out anything they object to.

"Hundreds of people have given us their support, but many now fear being targeted by the police and are keeping their heads down."

Abdul Mahmood, aged 18, of Kirby Street, Cobridge, visited the stall to show support to the group.

He said: "I often see them here and don't see they are doing anything wrong.

"Their stall is right under a CCTV camera, so they obviously have nothing to hide."

H
33

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 10:23:18
26
tommy,
belfast uk 09/07/2008 09:14:36

Continued

"Heated views were exchanged when PC Tracy Adams, of Burslem police station, approached the stall - with some community members expressing anger at the raids.

PC Adams said: "It's a routine call and I collect samples of the leaflets.

"I hope to be able to maintain a good relationship between the Muslim community and police."

Many supporters of the group said they hoped the incident would not lead to the breakdown of relations between different communities.

But Imran Khan, a youth worker from Cobridge, said: "The whole community is behind them. They've done a lot to help get youngsters off the streets." //

"Now that's what I call integrating.."

Seems like it actually IS integrating...

"..not to mention the fact that
the Universal Declaration of Human Rights has been modified by the un human rights council to forbid the discussion of human rights violations committed under sharia law"

Source/s for this 'fact'...thx...

"Quote..Muslims were instrumental in the opening up of white Australia..Unquote...."

Quite..

"a misquote from the meathead sheikh.."

Nothing to do with him. It is a historical fact.

" Sheikh Taj Aldin al-Hilali who said on egyptian tv ..that white Australians arrived in the country shackled as convicts"

Quite.

"We (Muslims) came as free people. We bought our own tickets. We are entitled to Australia more than they are," he said."

Quite. They did. And caused no problems. In fact there have few incidences in Australia involving Muslims in Australia until the US led Coalitions ghastly little illegal war in Iraq.
34

bluehead,

edinburgh 09/07/2008 10:27:30
Is this the war-mongering Americans at it again?
let us hope that their will be no more kissing of the presidential posterior like the last time.
if the bampot politicians want wars let them fight it out between themselves.
35

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 10:33:28
32
Big Jock McDoc,
Scotland 09/07/2008 10:18:03
#29

"sO yOu think capitalisatiOns is relevent tO the tOpic? "

Certainly, especially on an issue where bigots raise their ugly heads. Bang, bang, down they go, Jock.
36

Jack fae Glasgow,

Govan 09/07/2008 11:03:50
Gets really boring listening to Iranian Islamic Rants after a while. Lets just save ourself some time and grief....NUKE THEM right now and start discussing something a little bit more productive.

We didn't have a problem nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki to "end" the last world war, so lets not mess around with obliterating Iran and sending a clear message to the rest of the so called revolutionary jihadists wherever they are. We've tried showing you the hand of peace and thats not worked, now we'll show you what's in our other hand!
37

chatnic,

09/07/2008 11:10:13
38
Big Jock McDoc,
09/07/2008 10:44:29
#37

"So by capitalisations you think a person is bigoted?"

Folk who purposefully NOT uppercasing names, specifically of Arabs, Islam, Muslim, Palestine, and/or America for that matter, all the time, obviously have some intention behind doing it.


"By labelling them bigoted you try to invalid their arguments in other peoples eyes"

Nope. Just pointing out and chastising those who engage in the ghastly practice.. Afterall, Jock, who else but a foul little bigot would do such a thing?
38

MisterN,

Scotland 09/07/2008 11:19:43
39

Great Idea Jock and what do you suggest we do when the fall out radiation covers Saudi Arabia? Kuwait? Qatar? Turkmenistan? Turkey? Oman? UAE? Pakistan? Azerbaijan? Armenia? The East coast of Africa and maybe even Israel itself? What then Jock?
39

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 11:20:17

Jack fae Glasgow,
Govan 09/07/2008 11:03:50

"Lets just save ourself some time and grief....NUKE THEM right now and start discussing something a little bit more productive"

Oh OK....Something a little more productive than what exactly???

"We didn't have a problem nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki to "end" the last world war.."

'We' being folk in Glasgow?

"We've tried showing you the hand of peace .."

I am at a loss as to exactly what was in the 'hand of peace'??? The invasion of neighbouring Iraq, based on pathetic lies? Severed diplomatic relations? Calling them part of the Axis of Evil?

'..and thats not worked.."

True it hasn't...wonder why..

"...now we'll show you what's in our other hand!"

:-) in public?
40

MisterN,

Scotland 09/07/2008 11:21:05
38

No effort is required in invalidating some of the arguements on these threads you only have to read them to see they invalidate themselves.
Look at 38 is that no a prime example?
41

SILVANA,

glasgow 09/07/2008 11:28:49
Chatnic (Note I have automatically given you a capital C)

Your rant regarding upper and lower case is strictly a stupid rant. At times I forget to use the capital letter when stating names of places and people but that does not make me a bigot. It just makes me a lousy typist.
Stop being so idiotic
42

MisterN,

Scotland 09/07/2008 11:42:55
44

If you want to read a rant then read 39 or is your selective sensibilities based on a biggotry which allows you to ignore one type of rant for another?
43

Neil,

Glasgow 09/07/2008 11:45:39
As a matter of international law threatening to launch an unprovoked war on Israel (at least unprovoked by Israel) would make an Israeli first strike legal. Even so I am not keen on it.
44

Gusto,

09/07/2008 11:48:28
"Christians, Catholics, Protestants"
- excuse me but they are all the same - its like saying Muslims, Shia, Suni.
Not to mention the loony fringes.... in both religions.
45

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 11:53:14
SILVANA,
glasgow 09/07/2008 11:28:49

"Chatnic (Note I have automatically given you a capital C)"

http://tinyurl.com/ytene/bravo.gif

"Your rant regarding upper and lower case is strictly a stupid rant."

Er, no. It follows what the poster did, quite precisely.

"At times I forget to use the capital letter when stating names of places and people but that does not make me a bigot. It just makes me a lousy typist."

Read the post. It was not a typo. Unless of course the poster makes a typo EVERYTIME they type 'i'slam, 'm'uslim, 'a'rab, 'p'alestine.

But never when they type 'I'srael, never when they begin a sentence.

Doing it consistently, wipes out any 'sticky key board', 'typo', 'bad grammar', 'poor typist' or any other wriggling excuse for plain olde bigotry.

"Stop being so idiotic"

Uh huh. But let the bigots run free.......NOPE!
46

chatnic,

09/07/2008 12:00:03
46 Neil, Glasgow 09/07/2008 11:45:39

"As a matter of international law threatening to launch an unprovoked war on Israel (at least unprovoked by Israel) would make an Israeli first strike legal."

Quite. Were it the case. However it isn't the case.

//IRAN has issued a strident warning that it would "set on fire" Israel and target the US navy in the Persian Gulf as its first response to any American attack over its nuclear programme//
47

Richard Lionheart,

09/07/2008 12:14:28
It is quite simple; once we all convert to Islam the World will be a peaceful place?
48

Louis Catorze,

09/07/2008 12:15:29
#40 et al....

here we are on the brink of a rather large punch up in the middle east and you're talking capitals?

Maybe it's just quicker to leave them out?

Or maybe, to some people, they're just as likely to use a capital for christian/muslim/god as they are for donkey, as it has just as much relevance in their lives.


Anyhoo.....the Iranian Revolutionary Guards :)...just as likely to turn over as the Iraqi Republican Guard or not? Not much to be scared of there.
And it is after all Israel that has the confirmed nukes. I wouldn't go stirring that particular hornet's nest.
49

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 12:17:28
51 Big Jock McDoc, 09/07/2008 12:06:56

"So it means that if a poster intentially capatalises words when they choose to and you have no constructive criticism of them then you consider their argument invalid?"

Pointing out their intentionally lowercased names IS constructive criticism 'of them'.

Their 'argument' for what it was worth, was another matter and you might notice if you took the time, that I did address most of the points they raised.
50

Louis Catorze,

09/07/2008 12:18:23
#52...no....then it would be down to the differing factions of islam to batter each other to death until the point was proved (or not) that their version is better.
Then we might get some peace.

But let's face it...how dull and tedious would it be?
Imagine spending all this life preparing for the next.
Rather them than me... :)
51

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 12:34:09
52 Richard Lionheart, 09/07/2008 12:14:28

"It is quite simple; once we all convert to Islam..."

Really? Apart from a handful of Islamic nut cases, who is asking us to all convert to Islam?

Proselytizing is forbidden in Islam.

"....the World will be a peaceful place?"

A predominantly christained country started the war in Iraq, led by a born again drunkard it seems. Hitler was Catholic. Pol Pot was Bhuddist and studied in a Catholic school. The Japanese were Shinto. The Tamil Tigers are Sikhs. Shall I go on?
52

M.Corleone,

2nd Vatican State..... Coatbridge 09/07/2008 12:50:42
Standing up for himself and his country....what a wee tart is am-a-dinner-jacket...best to lie down and let the rest of the west walk all over him.....after all wherever we tread there is peace and harmony isn't there?

Dubya is sh--in himself cos he has to take a "real" gamble with Iran as opposed to the cakewalk (in relevant terms of course)that was Iraq.

I bet Tony Bliar is actually pleased to be out of the equation now....or maybe not; he actually thinks he has a direct line to God as well now probably.
53

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 12:55:14
53 Louis Catorze, 09/07/2008 12:15:29


"...here we are on the brink of a rather large punch up in the middle east and you're talking capitals?"

Nope. Bigotry.

"Or maybe, to some people, they're just as likely to use a capital for christian/muslim/god as they are for donkey, as it has just as much relevance in their lives."

Not when it is done purposefully, over and over again and ONLY to Arabs, Muslims, Islam and/or Palestine, in order to deride them.

"the Iranian Revolutionary Guards :)...just as likely to turn over as the Iraqi Republican Guard or not? Not much to be scared of there"

Except, unlike Iraq, Iran hasn't been decimated by a decade or more of sanctions, it has hardware, is on home turf and could close the Straits of Hormuz..

"And it is after all Israel that has the confirmed nukes."

It is alleged to have nukies.
54

2dogs in D.C.,

09/07/2008 13:02:22
Oh,great. We've another new spelling tsar on these threads.
55

Proximaking,

Aberdeen 09/07/2008 13:02:36
I don't think the USA or Israel have any right to tell anyone what to do. If Iran is attacked then under UN law they have a right and I would say an absolute duty to hit back. I always tell my sons to hit a girl back twice as hard as she hits them as too many girls think they have a right to hit boys but boys have no right to hit back. Maybe God knew what he was talking about when he called Israel a wh.re (word from the Bible not allowed in the Scotsman? Are they mad?), a liar, a thief. The more I see of this world panning out the more I think he is sitting here having a real hoot having given us todays script but seemingly set in the past. I look forward to Israel getting the kicking she has for so long richly deserved. And if she dares nuke anyone in retaliation I reckon the powers that be, even the USA, would be morally obliged to nuke her back and put her out of her misery so she never took out her ire on anyone again simply for having the audacity to stand up against her. lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
56

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 13:04:35
57 Big Jock McDoc,09/07/2008 12:41:28

"I’m questioning the reason why you criticised their captialism and subsequently called the poster a bigot"

Er...it's quite obvious. Read the posters foul work. http://tinyurl.com/6ludtv

"Who are you to be judge and jury about what a person thinks, what they says and how the say it?"

The poster gave his/her own game away by being a tad too rabid.

" Folk are sick of being browbeaten through guilt trips by stern nannies like you who think they know best"

Uh huh. Then perhaps the poster ought NOT deride 'a'rabs, 'm'uslims, 'p'alestinians purposefully.

"By all means offer constructive criticism.."

I did.

" but don’t sermonize."

I haven't, I'm answering to those who seem to think blatant bigotry is OK.

" I’m my own man and I’ll make my own opionions and if I convinced by other people they are wrong I’ll change them, I won’t be told"

Fine, then read the post in question.. http://tinyurl.com/6ludtv ..and get back to me.
57

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 13:10:24
60 2dogs in D.C., 09/07/2008 13:02:22

"Oh,great. We've another new spelling tsar on these threads"

The purposeful lowercasing of Arabs, Muslims, Islam, Palestine in order to deride them, has NOTHING what-so-ever to do with spelling or grammar or typing skills or for that matter, sticky keyboards.

It has a lot to do with being a smelly little bigot though. A friend of yours?
58

chatnic,

09/07/2008 13:20:09
61 Proximaking, Aberdeen 09/07/2008 13:02:36

"If Iran is attacked then under UN law they have a right and I would say an absolute duty to hit back."

In defense, yes.

"I always tell my sons to hit a girl back twice as hard as she hits them as too many girls think they have a right to hit boys but boys have no right to hit back."

Dis-agree....Escalation is not an answer or a cure. The girl might have a bigger brother.

"Maybe God knew what he was talking about when he called Israel a wh.re (word from the Bible not allowed in the Scotsman? Are they mad?), a liar, a thief."

G-/od or some scribe in the desert, high on the local hallucinogens?

" I look forward to Israel getting the kicking she has for so long richly deserved."

Better a change of ways/policies/thinking, i.e., a change of regime.

" And if she dares nuke anyone in retaliation .."

You might want to re-write that. 'in retaliation' indicates Israel being attacked first.

59

,

09/07/2008 13:38:08
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60

Richard Perry,

GA 09/07/2008 13:42:32
As a student and author of Biblical Prophecy, I cannot help but notice that there is an End Time Bible prophecy which indicates that a Middle Eastern leader will take peace from the earth. Scripture indicates that he will be given a Great Battle.

Could this situation with Iran lead to that Great Battle and World War?

Richard H Perry
61

Silence of the Yams,

09/07/2008 13:47:30
I don't see what they can do militarily against Israel if they take out their banned facilities. They can get their proxy army in Lebannon to fire rockets, but that's about it, and if they attempt to block the Straits they can expect to be dealt with severely by the UN. The Mullah's should realise they can't win! Not a hope.
62

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 13:51:21
61 Proximaking, Aberdeen 09/07/2008 13:02:36


"I always tell my sons to hit a girl back twice as hard as she hits them as too many girls think they have a right to hit boys but boys have no right to hit back."

If they are able to hit harder, they'd be capable of walking away. Domestic violence is rife enough without implanting such notions in young minds.
63

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 14:00:29
67 Silence of the Yams, 09/07/2008 13:47:30

"I don't see what they can do militarily against Israel if they take out their banned facilities."

Which 'banned' facilities?

"They can get their proxy army in Lebannon to fire rockets, but that's about it..."

IF every military facility is indeed wiped out on first strike. Odds are that won't happen.

"..and if they attempt to block the Straits they can expect to be dealt with severely by the UN."

The UN.....are you sure? First you advocate breaking UN rules by attacking Iran, then you want the UN to clean your mess?

"The Mullah's should realise they can't win!"

They don't have to win. They only have to stay in place.

"Not a hope"

Uh huh. Garlands and dancing in the streets again?
64

Neil,

Glasgow 09/07/2008 14:05:18
Chat says it would be legitimate for Israel to launch a preemptive strike against Iran if they had themselves threatened an unprovoked war on Israel. Accpets that Iran has done so. Then says that this would not be justified.

All in one post.

The knots some people will twist themselves into to push their Israelism.
65

chatnic,

09/07/2008 14:09:13
70 Neil, Glasgow 09/07/2008 14:05:18

"Chat says it would be legitimate for Israel to launch a preemptive strike against Iran if they had themselves threatened an unprovoked war on Israel."

Yes.

" Accpets that Iran has done so. Then says that this would not be justified...All in one post."

You'd best read my post again..

"The knots some people will twist themselves into to push their Israelism"

Strange, I'm no fan of either.
66

2dogs in D.C.,

09/07/2008 14:24:35
Really no need to get testy there, Chatnic. Welcome to the Scotsman.
67

Nurse,

Edinburgh 09/07/2008 14:49:49
I think Iran wants a war as they have probaby got the bomb already from Pakistan, its a great excuse for them to wipe out Israel as they have always wanted and do Bin ladens work for him as a state.
68

Silence of the Yams,

09/07/2008 15:05:39
69. Like it or not they have been told by the UN to stop enrichment, this request supercedes all other rights.

If they block the Straits they will no doubt be given an ultimatum and then lethal force will be quickly authorised by the Security Council.

If they want to stay in place they're going the wrong way about it! I hope if they are subject to an IDF strike they do attempt to start a wider war as it will be short for them! Their military is large but obsolete, no doubt they will attack civilian targets, but the price they will pay will likely be "regime changing".



69

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 15:36:07
Neil

Perhaps I should clear this up. I'm on neither side.

There's only one world, which if tended carefully, is abundant enough to house, clothe, water & feed the world's population.

Trade and communication have always been the great levelers, the potential is there, it's being squandered by a brutal and foolish mind set, driven by the need for resources in order to maintain the status quo.

It's a junkies mindset. The kind that will even lie to their mothers and fathers and sons and daughters about some Conspiracy Theory on WMDs, because they simply couldn't tell their mothers and fathers and sons and daughters the truth.

War is not an answer. War is Might is Right. Every time, always has, always will be.

We've been trying it for how many millennium? It's the beast in humanity, now a corporate run business, refined to the point of it being too lucrative a global enterprise to do away with.

Whole towns would suddenly face foreclosure, have to move out, or make plough shares.
70

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 15:45:13
72 2dogs in D.C.,09/07/2008 14:24:35

"Really no need to get testy there, Chatnic"

Matter of fact.

"Welcome to the Scotsman"

May ye be hail an hertie till ye'r auld enouch tae dee. (sp?)
71

Auntie Christ,

axis of evil 09/07/2008 16:04:37
Bravo chatnic, bravo

How appropriate that I was able to see your work here on the Scotsman from it’s inception. I recognize in you a fellow traveler who, like me, is practiced in the art of deception, I applaud you! Your efforts here mirror the work of so many others who are engaged in similar activities around the world and with the help of these people, on both sides of the issue, we will make life more interesting eh? Some have described the coming events as WWIII but a better description, I’m told, would be SlaughterHouse One. I’m happy hope you’re happy too.

I especially like the part where you dis war… nice touch, a true artist in the making – the soft sell approach is always soooo effective. Wink, wink.

It’s all in the name my friend, let the games begin!

Peace… is so boring!
72

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 16:16:09
74 Silence of the Yams, 09/07/2008 15:05:39

"Like it or not they have been told by the UN to stop enrichment, this request supercedes all other rights"

On 'suspicions of' is not enough for the Security Council to wage war.

Unless there's a clear breach of peace of some sort or until it's proven that they are indeed currently in breech of the Non Proliferation Treaty, which is decided by the IAEA, the Security Council it seems, can only legally apply sanctions.

And, at the moment, all we have are 'suspicions of'

"If they block the Straits they will no doubt be given an ultimatum and then lethal force will be quickly authorised by the Security Council"

Those in the security Council who DON'T rely on the Straits of Hormuz might not want to play.

"I hope if they are subject to an IDF strike they do attempt to start a wider war as it will be short for them!"

Wonderful sentiments. Better not to have a war....

"Their military is large but obsolete..."

By far better than Iraq's...It's been 5 + years now.
73

,

09/07/2008 16:20:14
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74

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 16:21:20
77 Auntie Christ, axis of evil 09/07/2008 16:04:37


"How appropriate that I was able to see your work here on the Scotsman from it’s inception."

I'm just a person expressing an opinion.

75

Newman!,

09/07/2008 16:24:58
#74 You are advocating that one country that has illegal nuclear weapons attacks another country that has no nuclear weapons in order to stop that country from getting illegal nuclear weapons.
Tell me, do you see anything illogical in that?
Do you see anything hypocritical in that?
76

Gere,

Scotland 09/07/2008 16:35:00
Post #79 continued

In 1953 Iran held its first democratic election, Mohamed Mossedeque was elected Prime Minister. He soon demonstrated that he would not be a compliant American Puppet and sought a better deal for the Iranians than the 16% oil revenue they were receiving. The CIA engineered a coup that replaced the democratically elected Mossedeque with the Shah, a compliant American Puppet. He maintained his grip on Iran and saw to it that the Iranians obeyed the Americans by torture carried out by a cruel secret police network and maintained torture detention centres like his American masters are presently doing. Many Iranians remain to this day unaccounted for. Result, the Iranians turned to their religion for deliverance and fell victim to the mad Mullahs. Iran is a made in America problem!!! On 3rd July 1988 an American Naval Captain murdered some 290 unarmed Iranian civilians by shooting down a civilian Iranian passenger Jumbo Jet, an Airbus, I believe hardly easy to mistake for a military craft. Of course he got away with it!!

Iran had better be able to defend itself if it does not want to be another American colony like Iraq!!!

For this you need missiles, every country has a right to defend itself. Americans it appears do not like it if you are prepared to fight back when they or their Jewish masters attack!!!
77

Auntie Christ,

axis of evil 09/07/2008 16:35:12
chatnic #80
The humble response… I don’t know, if you want my advice sewing the seeds of discord is more effective, leave the humble approach to the Christians, I don’t think people will buy it from an atheist – you did say your were an atheist, right? :-) wink. I’ll leave you to carry on the good work I’ve got to go – literally. Like the Jolly Green Giant said: there’s nothin like a good pea!
78

Louis Catorze,

09/07/2008 16:35:55
#66 no Richard, it doesn't. The Bible is just a story, albeit a very good one.
79

2dogs in D.C.,

09/07/2008 16:45:10
Oh boy. Just to add a little more "rattle" to the sabers, according to my other favorite news site, Deutsche Welle,Iran test fired some missles over the gulf just this morning. Now, some would say that they have every right to test weapons systems,but I would have to suggest that right now might not be the ideal time. And just suppose one of those missiles accidently hit some ship?
80

chatnic,

A 09/07/2008 16:45:29
79 Gere, Scotland 09/07/2008 16:20:14

"Let us remember who introduced terror into the Middle East."

Churchill's gassing Kurds 1931 from memory. Though I'm sure 'terrorism' in some form or another is as olde as humanity.

Not that it forgives the Pre-Pro-Israel terroristas, who didn't stop until there was a State of Israel.

Admirable or not, it seems to be the stance folk believe they're forced to take at times, so it's not un-usual that the radical elements amongst the Palestinians take it up. They won't be the last.

Of course admitting it is another matter all together.

81

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 16:47:44

Auntie Christ, axis of evil 09/07/2008 16:35:12



Whatever

?????
82

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 16:52:36


G'night folks

83

Auntie Christ,

axis of evil 09/07/2008 16:55:50
chatnic
Good move, from now on - in public - we will act as if we don't know each other, I certainly don't want to blow your cover at this stage.
Ah Salam Alaikum
84

chatnic,

Australia 09/07/2008 17:56:35
Auntie Christ,
axis of evil 09/07/2008 16:55:50


Uh huh.

Weird.
85

,

09/07/2008 18:14:04
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86

tommy,

belfast uk 09/07/2008 18:16:00
for chatnic
In its recently concluded June session, the UN Human Rights Council ruled that any references to Islamic Shar’ia law are prohibited in the council chamber.
The transcript of the session can be read here http://tinyurl.com/5l9z94

You dont call this integration - do you
All the laws of Kufr need to be eradicated and replaced by the laws of Allah immediately. We are commanded to implement Islam in every aspect of our lives and carry it to the whole world via Jihad--

QUOTE from yourself>>>Jihad, in it's strictest sense, is a personal endeavor to adhere to and protect Islam, especially in the Islamic world, which of course is wherever Muslims find themselves.---Unquote
more muslim obfuscation
Jihad is holy war the purpose of which is to spread islam
Ibn Khaldun (A.D. 1332-1406),In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force.
Professor Walid Phares......"Those who emphasize the personal meaning of Jihad as `the struggle against one's evil inclination' rather than its political definition as `the Holy War against infidels', are simply perverting history by minimizing the primary significance of the concept".
Bukhari hadith-- refers to jihad over 200 times as holy war and never as a personal struggle also Muslim (19:4294)
Dr. Muhammad Sa’id Ramadan al-Buti wrote the following: “The Holy War (Islamic Jihad), as it is known in Islamic Jurisprudence, is basically an OFFENSIVE war.
he also says referring to jihad that Its goal is the exaltation of the Word of Allah and the construction of Islamic society and the establishment of Allah’s Kingdom on Earth regardless of the means. The means would be offensive warfare. In this case, it is the apex, the noblest Holy War. It is legal to carry on a Holy War.”
to quote but a very few

Surely as a muslim you know this or are you just practising a bit
87

tommy,

belfast uk 09/07/2008 18:28:19
continued :-
of taqiyya
Quote
Education and an interest in religion/s even though I am a devout atheista.Unquote
It is nice to see a bit of humour injected into the proceedings
88

PotomacHighlander,

USA 09/07/2008 18:33:41
Here in the USA, we citizens of the USA consider a nutcase president and regime in Iran one of the least of of our problems.

We have a ruthless chameleon Muslim (in bed with the American media, who manipulate polls and so propogandize this race it reminds me of the old USSR) running for office, attacking the morals of the majority of Americans, shamelessly riding the race issue. His rhetoric and personal statements make him a dangerous man for the future of a declining superpower.

Equally of concern for the average American is the frustrating anti-exploration and anti-native energy production attitude among the American elite. The average American despises the bondage of foreign oil and throughout our land there have been many calling for a positive approach from the government toward the drilling of domestic oil (on-shore and off-shore), the harnessing of wind power (there's a great amount here, especially among the politicians), and alternative sources of energy. Unfortunately, because it is geographically large and because of the state system of government, a focus on any real change is very slow, if it comes at all.

No, Iran is far away. Sure there are a minority that believe Iran is dangerous, but hey, the truth is, the most dangerous people in America are already in America.

89

PotomacHighlander,

USA 09/07/2008 18:40:12
I meant to end the previous comment as: "...and the most dangerous people to America are already in the country."

90

,

09/07/2008 18:46:54
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,

09/07/2008 18:55:07
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ebbi,

spain 09/07/2008 19:07:51
why is it that western countries lead by usa who have absolutely no business in persian gulf can have a military exercise but iran should not.if west threatens it must be prepared for retaliations.usa and other european countries are at fault although i strongly oppose the iranian government and i think when it comes to iranian people they government is a bully and uses all kinds of atrocities inside iran.but west is not in a position to lecture or demand.
93

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09/07/2008 19:14:25
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Finnking,

Lempäälä 09/07/2008 19:20:22
Where was the furore when Israel was GIVEN long range bombers by the ever generous US tax payer?

Where was the condemnation by US and 'uk' when Israel conducted long range attack maneuvers last week?

Iran signed up to the NPT and that document they signed allows the processing of Uranium. That was what they signed. Why should the give up that right just because some powerful members of the UN say so?

Condie Rice (ah!) has just said that Iran should adhere to it's SC obligations. Somehow she forgets to condemn nation states who also flout UN rules: Israel and US/'uk. It's called hypocrisy.

Now we enter the twilight zone of western media created morality: The US/'uk' can defend themselves by attacking, killing and occupying others as can Israel. However, Iran is denounced for simply saying "attack us and we will retaliate"; which is an integral right of any nation state within international law.

If either US/'uk' or Israel attack Iran and war ensues, most of the world will support the Persians; for many reasons but mainly the sheer hypocrisy of the Israeli/US/'uk' ridiculous justifications.
95

Schot,

09/07/2008 19:32:46
56 Chatnic

"The Tamil Tigers are Sikhs."

You made an important point brilliantly, so no criticism, but for the next time you use it, Tamils are actually Hindus. Still, it is reassuring to hear someone talk some sense in the face of the brain-addled keech on this thread.


66 Richard Perry
"As a student and author of Biblical Prophecy"

Hahahahha. Haha. Hey, Dick, authored any more Biblical prophecies lately ? And, lo, the Prophet Richard Perry did return to preach war to the masses, but they did ridicule him and torment him for being a living indictment of the backwards US education system.

Who would Jesus bomb ?

youtube.com/watch?v=Q9XYFp3xLyg
I
96

,

09/07/2008 20:12:08
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97

billengland,

09/07/2008 20:16:54
The news that Iran now has long range missiles is the best I have seen all week. They are now fully equipped to defend themselves if attacked.
98

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 09/07/2008 20:52:34
103# It's all very well that Iran have a few retaliatory weapons but do you think there will be anyone there to set them off If Israel and America decide to go for it? I don't think these two warmongers would use half measures in their initial attack. They will blow Iran back to the stone age first. Even if they (The Iranians) do manage to get a few off the ground the retribution would be swift and overkill in every sense of the word.
99

Newman!,

09/07/2008 21:23:22
I just hope for their own sake that the Iranians have some good defences because the new Ghengis Khan is after their land. If they are attacked by these barbarians then they will have every right to retaliate in any way against the aggressors.
100

Finnking,

Lempäälä 09/07/2008 21:35:06
103 billengland and 104 Banana Heid

If Israel attacks, it wont just be Iran that lashes out. Lebanon, Syria, Palestine and southern Iraq will surely counter attack against the western forces; doubt in Syria, but....

We should be looking for a trigger situation. I really don't think the UN will sanction military force as Iran has done nothing wrong (not that that stops US/'uk'/Israel)so there needs to be some "dead Polish soldiers". I would like to know the countries sitting at the Security Council in November; what bribes will the US give them for a "Kill Innocent People" vote. I doubt there will another "Yemen Most Expensive" vote situation again. Lesson learned there.

102: Free Hoots Man dot com is a web site. Deal with it. I certainly never said that I wouldn't post here. I was part of the temporary boycott but never said I would never post. I also post on other sites using the same name. Is there something you fail to comprehend about the notion of someone posting on various sites?



101

Schot,

09/07/2008 22:11:00
I think an attack is unlikely before the US elections, but a real risk if the Democrats win during the delay before they take the presidency.

Are you really in Lempäälä ? Did you used to be known as McCool ?

102

Finnking,

Lempäälä 09/07/2008 22:20:15
109 Schot

No. Never used that name. Never seen anyone from Lempäälä on here. How do you know the place?
103

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 09/07/2008 23:13:33
INTERNATIONAL REACTIONS TO IRAN

(Reuters) - Iran test-fired nine missiles on Wednesday and warned the United States and Israel it was ready to retaliate for any attack over its disputed nuclear projects.
Here is some international reaction:
U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE CONDOLEEZZA RICE, IN BULGARIA
"I see it as evidence that the missile threat is not an imaginary one and that those who say that there is no Iranian threat against which to be building missile defences, perhaps ought to talk to the Iranians about ... the range of the missiles that they test fired."
WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN GORDON JOHNDROE, IN JAPAN AT G8 SUMMIT
Iran should "refrain from further missile tests if they truly seek to gain the trust of the world".
ITALIAN FOREIGN MINISTER FRANCO FRATTINI, IN THE WEST BANK
"The test clarifies what it is we're talking about. These are very dangerous missiles -- that's why the international community and not just Israel has an interest in blocking this escalation in a definitive way."
GERMAN GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN, TO REPORTERS
"The EU3 plus 3 have worked hard in the last few weeks to present Iran with a new offer ... now we need to establish how serious Iran is about its willingness to negotiate.
"With this (new) offer, the international community has sought to increase cooperation with Iran and to build bridges. it is regrettable that Iran has answered this with a gesture showing ill will."
FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESMAN FREDERIC DESAGNEAUX
"These missile tests can only reinforce the international community's concerns at a time when, in parallel, Iran is developing a nuclear programme which the IAEA director general's last report says includes activities that could be linked to the design and production of nuclear weapons."
U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE JOHN MCCAIN
The tests "demonstrate the need for effective missile defence now and in the future, and this includes missile defence in Europe as is planned with the Czech Republic and Poland
104

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 09/07/2008 23:14:19
continued..


U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE JOHN MCCAIN
The tests "demonstrate the need for effective missile defence now and in the future, and this includes missile defence in Europe as is planned with the Czech Republic and Poland".
U.S. DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE BARACK OMABA
"Iran is a great threat. We have to make sure we are working with our allies to apply tightened pressure on Iran."
105

Auntie Christ,

axis of evil 09/07/2008 23:19:29
Finnking
You still alive? Still selling Islam via the fairness doctrine I see – and losing the battle. I’ve not posted here in about a year but have had the opportunity to read and keep up – so to speak. I remember a time, the good old days for you, when the second thing out of a persons mouth, after trashing Bush, were words of sympathy for Muslims and now the only time I hear/read those sentiments are from the legions of Muslims masquerading as “just folks” who post on these forums, many of whom I have “smoked out” for the charlatans they are. I have a knack for pissing people off.

War is the final arbitrator, war is a viable alternative to an intolerable situation – and it seems to be getting more intolerable on both sides with each passing week. To MIS-quote Ahmadinejad – war is a joke! I’m ready for a good laugh, how bout you?

Whether you are a charlatan or not – though I suspect so – it is good to know you’re still plugging away. And I see no dishonor in posting on the Scotsman, as you can see. May we both survive the coming events at Har Megiddo.

Guess who?
dseldon
106

Schot,

09/07/2008 23:23:44
I passed through Lempäälä on a bus once, I don't really know it. I was scruntising every detail with great curiousity though.

I don't know if you can get the BBC iplayer there but if you can, there was a marvellous interview with Seymour Hersh on Newsnight tonight on Iran. If you can't get it I'll try and type up a transcript for you.
107

Auntie Christ,

axis of evil 09/07/2008 23:28:58
Finnking
My apologies, I meant to sprinkle smiley faces throughout #113 but they don’t show up when I cut and paste. :-) :-) There all better!

BTW did you ever own a dog? :-) Hey what can I say it’s my new job and all, you know Auntie Christ, devils advocate, rouser of rabble etc. It’s a living.
Ciao
Ok I admit it I have a little Italian in me but I’m having him removed tomorrow.
dseldon
108

,

09/07/2008 23:44:35
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109

Finnking,

Lempäälä 10/07/2008 00:06:06
Aunti Christ

I would never sell any organised religion: oppressive herd control, every one. I do, however, promote fairness.

I ache for the day someone simply admits that all the killing is because of a desire for global control. I can deal with truth. The excuses given, the moral justifications, are absurd; cherry picked to suit.

Charlatan? Not I. "Legions of Muslims" on the Scotsman fora??!! Aye, right.

"D Seldon"?? Not Hari? Dog? 30 years ago. Why?


Schot

What were you doing in Finland? BBC? Aye, I will look it up the morn. Thanks for the suggestion.
110

Schot,

10/07/2008 00:23:13
A beautiful, intelligent young Finnish girl.
What are you doing in Finland ?
111

Finnking,

Lempäälä 10/07/2008 00:32:23
Schot

Came here for much the same reason! Still here because I couldn't be bothered moving again.

Was she in Tampere? Still with her?
112

William Anchor,

10/07/2008 00:42:44
probably wont get an edge in here, and just stating the obvious, but why dont we just be friends and make up? Ahmadinejad looks like a nice guy, he is always smiling so I trust him. When he says he only wants nuclear power I have no reason not to believe this, he is only joking when he says he will obliterate Israel, what a prankster. tee hee.
113

Schot,

10/07/2008 00:44:03
No. I wish.

Helsinki, but the cheap flight landed in Tampere.

I did see 'Ae Fond Kiss' at the Kampras, Biocity cinema, which was weird being the only Scot in such a small cinema. Never got to meet her parents either !
114

Schot,

10/07/2008 00:46:33
I take it you can speak some Finnish now ?
115

Auntie Christ,

Axis of evil 10/07/2008 01:01:11
FinnKing
I’m crushed you don’t remember me, I don’ know if I can bear it. :-)Your vague way of answering questions, even ones asked in jest, hasn’t changed - its sooo revealing. Do they have a class for it in the Madrasas or something?

You say:
“I ache for the day someone simply admits that all the killing is because of a desire for global control.”

Is that a reference to the Mullahs here in the US, Canada, Europe and other places that state there presence here and there is a prelude to converting the US and, ultimately, the rest of the world to Islam? Is this your sense of “fairness”? I rejected Christianity, thank you very much, and Islam is a non starter - totally loopy.

You’ve changed Finnking. It’s as though the wind has been taken out of your sails. Since you don’t remember me you won’t remember the advice I gave you, which was that people who invest in unrealistic expectations – that would be you and Islam – are destined for a life of unhappiness, you seem well on the way. Your world view is so irreconcilable to reality it is breathtaking to behold. What’s it like being that naïve?
dseldon
116

Hemingway,

Ayr 10/07/2008 01:06:35
#123 Auntie Christ

Finnking hangs out with a troll named Djookers, what do you expect?
117

Auntie Christ,

axis of evil 10/07/2008 02:20:26
Hemingway
I see his popularity hasn’t risen since the last time I was here – ABOUT A YEAR AGO!

Hemingway… if that’s a reference to the author of the same name I was coincidently born and raised in the same town as he and went to the same High School - Oak Park Illinois.
118

,

10/07/2008 02:29:27
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119

Auntie Christ,

axis of evil 10/07/2008 02:38:05
Moreen
You mean when he says things like " I do, however, promote fairness." he's being disingenuous? :-) Surely not Finnking!
120

Finnking,

Lempäälä 10/07/2008 02:56:03
123 Auntie Christ,

No, I don't recognise the scant style, the dreich rhetoric or the bawheid manner.

Can't think why.

122 Schot

Language: bit lazy with learning it. Trying the osmosis approach to learning and failing. Ach, I do okay and can manage day to day linguistic needs. It's a s*d of a language to get anywhere near fluent and most Finns under 40 speak English well enough.

I don't get the "'Ae Fond Kiss' at the Kampras, Biocity cinema" reference.

William Anchor

"he is only joking when he says he will obliterate Israel,"

---He didn't say that, ever.


121

Auntie Christ,

axis of evil 10/07/2008 03:11:59
Now is that a way for one of the shock troops of the NEW NEW World order to behave, shame on you! I recalled you being a young man Finnking... memory decaying already? Not much time left to make your mark.. tick tock tick tock. You can spout Gaelic all day long I still think you’re a Muslim as the alternatives are so much more embarrassing for you.
122

,

10/07/2008 03:21:05
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123

Auntie Christ,

10/07/2008 03:38:16
Finnking
What a waste, I'll check back in a year or so just to see how much you've grown. :-) You really must learn to respond in a much more forthright manner, of course that would mean becoming an apostate - right?. Times up - over and out.
124

chatnic,

Australia 10/07/2008 07:52:22
92 tommy, belfast uk 09/07/2008 18:16:00

"In its recently concluded June session, the UN Human Rights Council ruled that any references to Islamic Shar’ia law are prohibited in the council chamber.
The transcript of the session can be read here http://tinyurl.com/5l9z94

This is what you said.."..not to mention the fact that
the Universal Declaration of Human Rights has been modified by the un human rights council to forbid the discussion of human rights violations committed under sharia law"

It seems, from your own link, that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights has not been changed at all

and your link indicates that the ruling applies to any religious judgments or evaluations.

//Statements should refrain from making judgments or evaluations of a particular religion. . . I can promise that at the next evaluation of a religious creed, law, or document, I will interrupt the speaker and we’ll go on to the next one//


"You dont call this integration - do you
All the laws of Kufr need to be eradicated and replaced by the laws of Allah immediately. We are commanded to implement Islam in every aspect of our lives and carry it to the whole world via Jihad"

Yes, because they are talking about themselves and how they should present themselves to the rest of the world under the guidance of their beliefs in that society. I.e., Jihad as Dârul-Islâm

Dârul-Islâm "Realm of Islam where Islamic norms and values are valid so that a Muslim can feel safe and at home even though he is not yet familiar with the language and culture;

I gave an informed link and description of the forms of Jihad followed by moderate Muslims.

>>>Jihad, in it's strictest sense, is a personal endeavor to adhere to and protect Islam, especially in the Islamic world, which of course is wherever Muslims find themselves.---Unquote

"more muslim obfuscation"

It is a matter of fact explanation of Muslim belief at it's most basic level.

"Jihad is holy war the purpose
125

chatnic,

Australia 10/07/2008 07:52:52

Schot, 09/07/2008 19:32:46

"Tamils are actually Hindus."

Oooops, quite...
126

chatnic,

10/07/2008 08:01:33
92 tommy, belfast uk 09/07/2008 18:16:00

Continued

Jihad is holy war the purpose of which is to spread islam."

I gave yoiu the basic forms of Jihad, followed by moderate Muslim people.

The Koran and Hadiths were written in context with what was happening at the time. If folk're at war with each other, it is quite common, reflected in the Koran and the Bible , to slay each other. It happens even today...

"Surely as a muslim you know this or are you just practising a bit "

WOW!!! You changed a Jewish person into a Muslim, just like that. With no evidence, no reason. Are you magic? Or just a strawman, Pajero?
127

Auntie Christ,

axis of evil 10/07/2008 08:16:39
Finnking
I had to come back and post an apology to you – seriously! Them I’m gone. Your memory is intact but mine sure isn’t! It occurred to me that the screen name I used about a year ago was dolivaw not dseldon, I hope you’ll forgive the snide comments I made about your memory, as for the others... Of course you may not remember dolivaw either no reason to, in any event
Have a better one.
dolivaw
128

chatnic,

Australia 10/07/2008 08:55:14


107 Big Jock McDoc, 09/07/2008 21:34:27

A change in tactics doesn't negate what bigots have already shown themselves to be.
129

Schot,

10/07/2008 10:07:56
128 Finnking

'Ae Fond Kiss' is Ken Loachs masterpiece about racism and intergration in Scotland. It starts with a wee lassie explaining to her classmates that although her parents are Pakistani, she supports Glasgow Rangers. If you haven't seen it you should.

I love Kaurismäki films too. It wasn't the language that scared me back to Scotland, it was the price of a beer there.

The cinema is a tiny wee Helsinki art-house, which is worth a visit. It was odd seeing a Scottish film subtitled.
130

,

10/07/2008 10:15:09
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131

chatnic,

Australia 10/07/2008 12:57:18
137 Big Jock McDoc, 10/07/2008 10:05:16

#136

"Guess that makes me a bigger bigot than tommy?"

Ho hum. Na...

" Keep on with your idiotic rant looking into things that are not there. "

Strange, I cut and pasted what WAS there, VERBATIM.
So who's the idiot? Ooops, sorry, perhaps that ought have been idiots.

What you're both serving out says more of you than any fantasy you might be trying to put on other posters.

Meanwhile, back on topic, care to address the points made? Sans the snide babbling..... thx
132

chatnic,

10/07/2008 13:13:44
BTW Big Jock McDoc

This yours?

"palestinain, palestinain, palestinain, palestinain, palestinain, palestinain, palestinain, palestinain....Guess that makes me a bigger bigot than tommy?"

I'd not have said as much before, but now that you seem intent on attacking someone who points out bigotry instead of the person exhibiting the bigotry, a re-evaluation might be in order, especially given your idiotic guessticulating there.

At least one of you can spell...... guess who it isn't.
133

chatnic,

Australia 10/07/2008 13:36:41
108 Finnking, Lempäälä 09/07/2008 21:35:06


"so there needs to be some "dead Polish soldiers"

Suspected "dead Polish soldiers" or no proof that there are no "dead Polish soldiers" is enough for some folk.

" I would like to know the countries sitting at the Security Council in November; what bribes will the US give them for a "Kill Innocent People" vote."

The threat to go it alone might do it. As a Coalition the other parties might have some say in how the act is committed and possibly a share of the spoils, depending on the deal they do. Iran's Northern tip and Caspean sea footage does front onto a hotch potch of Inter'national interests' in need of protection.

134

Tobermory,

10/07/2008 13:58:53
#142 chatnic

Please don't give Finnking or any of his other Multiple IDs the timoe of day.
135

chatnic,

Australia 10/07/2008 14:05:13
113 Auntie Christ, axis of evil 09/07/2008 23:19:29

Now the only time I hear/read those sentiments are from the legions of Muslims masquerading as “just folks” "

You'll be putting up some quotes I guess....Yes?

"I have a knack for pissing people off"

No quotes would do it for me.

"War is the final arbitrator"

What has been finalized. The world is in a state of continual change.

I'd say one's conscience is the final arbitrator. If one has one.

"...war is a viable alternative to an intolerable situation"

Only by making the situation completely intolerable for the 'other' party via might is right, right or wrong.

War destroys any hope of there being any viable alternative, other than war, to an 'allegedly' intolerable situation. 'allegedly', because until there is war, there is no war.

"– and it seems to be getting more intolerable on both sides with each passing week."

So we're told by the WMDs Conspiracy Theorists.

136

chatnic,

Australia 10/07/2008 14:08:47
143 Tobermory, 10/07/2008 13:58:53

"Please don't give Finnking or any of his other Multiple IDs the timoe of day."

Why? It's a public tawk bored. I'll talk to who ever I choose, about what ever I choose and form my own opinions......thx
137

,

10/07/2008 14:19:42
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138

,

10/07/2008 14:23:04
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139

chatnic,

Australia 10/07/2008 14:42:20
145 Big Jock McDoc, 10/07/2008 14:08:13

"who exactly appointed you to term who claim who is bigoted or not?"

Why, no one. Your friend, incriminated itself according to an impartial arbiter, the Dictionary definition.

Lower casing in order to deride is an innocuous little ploy, used and defended by those of a similar cut on both sides of the coin. So, please do continue, it will in all likelihood, only show which ghastly side of the worthless coin you'll fall.

----------

Conflict resolutions and meaningfull discussion don't come about through petty derision, silly accusations or grinding through the past, but through amicable compromise based on what the future might hold for both parties. The first step is to at least agree to dis-agree without being dis-agreeable. Only then can people have meaningfull dialogue. Blatant bigotry has no place.

Meanwhile, the topic is "Iran threatens to set Israel ablaze as fears grow of US-backed war", please continue.....thx

140

chatnic,

Australia 10/07/2008 15:05:53
147 Vote SNP !!! !!!, Kilbarchan 10/07/2008 14:19:42

"Exactly, feed the trolls like Finnking all you like"

Perhaps you'll forgive me if I make up and speak my own mind on who is or who is not a troll.

Thus far my visit here, in order to discuss the issues in an informed and respectfull manner, has been marred by personal attacks, stupid & baseless accusations and little informed dialogue on the actual topic.

Please continue.....
141

Finnking,

Lempäälä 10/07/2008 15:08:15
142 chatnic, Australia

I feel that they will need some pretext for the attack All this crud about "Iran is making nukes" is completely drivel, as the inspection teams have repeatedly said.

The Iraq war (plus all the bombing of Afghanistan and Iraq BEFORE 911), Israel bombing the Iraq nuclear POWER stations (near a city!) etc etc show us the mad crazies will attack even they can't find a justification, no matter how absurd.

TOTAL just pulled out and France is now taking a "tough line" on Iran (against popular opinion). I predict that should France support the US in attacking a peaceful nation state and helping to massacre children again etc, that TOTAL will get a decent chunk.

Russia has just put in an offer to buy all Libya's oil and gas. You know, some people simply buy the stuff while others use tax payers money (and kiddies' lives and limbs) to bomb, massacre, invade, occupy and torture in order to get the oil.

I feel the US is over stretched and Israel would have to play a multiple war on at least three fronts. Can they do that? No idea?

The US military in the area is excessive. Maybe they will merrily shoot down another Iranian civilian passenger jet, killing 66 kids, just to show how crazy they can be.
142

chatnic,

Australia 10/07/2008 17:04:19
151 Finnking, Lempäälä 10/07/2008 15:08:15

All industrialized countries are oil dependent. The biggest and most well armed oil junkie on the block has 'might is right' on it's side and, unfortunately, "WTF is gonna ' stop 'em".

It's fear is self implosion, driven by a lack of resources it needs to keep the millwheels grinding the noses of the populus. The LA riots show us what a volatile place America can be. Spread that on the threat of gasoline shortages over the whole 'armed to the teeth' country.

Meanwhile the lesser International players will stand by and hone in on the corpses by whatever means, wherever they think they can.

WW11 didn't stop, with the dropping of Nukies on Japan, it mutated. With a US presence firmly established in Japan, it stood off against the other powers in the region dependent on the shipping routes. A powerful Korea at that strategic junction might have been able to cause problems if it wanted. None of the powers in the region could have that, either absorb it as one's own or leave it divided.

Then it mutated into the cold war, because others now had Nukies, only to raise it's ugly head in Vietnam/Cambodia and now it's in the M East, again.

Japan was headed towards the oil and control in the Sth East Asian region, the only way to control that without over extending, was to take Japan. Hitler & Germany's war machine was after the oil in the M East. Britain couldn't have that and wouldn't wear any notions of any particular country becoming powerful & gaining hold in the M East, solution, divide, again.

Same war, same stupid type of people who have the same stupid mindset, on all sides. Same basic target, resources, control.

As to Russia and France, they're no angels. Take a look at the Chechens and the French haunts.

The I/P issue is basically over land and a notion foisted on the peoples of the region in order to help divide and conquer a la Great Britain. It has run out of control.
143

Finnking,

Lempäälä 10/07/2008 19:13:23
152
chatnic,
Australia

I like your use of the word 'mutate' to describe the transfer of power westwards and the changes made.

The US have really got herd control down to its most efficient so far. But it doesn't work in other countries.

Get rid of nation states; it's the only solution!

Thanks for the chat.

144

,

11/07/2008 00:16:04
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145

chatnic,

Australia 11/07/2008 02:28:25

153 Big Jock McDoc, Scotland 10/07/2008 18:14:38

"You talk about bigotry.."

And provided irrefutable evidence of it.

"you mention in #29 //"The Zionist regime. A regime is not a country."//

Indeed, according to the Dictionary definition.

"The government of Israel who democratically elected by the majority of people of Israel."

yes.

" It is not a regime"

According to the dictionary definition, a Government is a regime.

"Therefore who is bigoted?"

Those who'd purposefully deride others by purposefully lowercasing their names. Oh and those who'd defend such ugly behaviour, Jock.

"As to your comment in #150, maybe if you didn't charge in here.."

By posting....how else does one engage?

" trying to push your opinions on everybody else .."

= talk about the issues

"and didn't denigrate those you don't agreee with you.."

You'll be showing where I've done so I guess. With a cut and paste, verbatim? Yes?

"This is a long dead thread"

Strange, you just posted on it.

154 Big Jock McDoc, 10/07/2008 18:20:14

"You have shown your bigotry by not equating Israel with zionist regime."

Er how does this equal bigotry? it conforms with the definition of regime.

"If Iran wants to destroy the 'zionist regime' Iran it will destroy the country of Israel in the process therefore it wants to destroy Israel"

Uh huh. So Bush and Blair and Co wanted to destroy Iraq.....

"Going by your logic you are being bigoted"

Er, no, my logic is based in fact and accepted dictionary definition, from a neutral POV.
146

chatnic,

Australia 11/07/2008 02:38:09
155 Big Jock McDoc, 10/07/2008 18:40:15

"Oh aye If you're not happy when people give you a taste of your own medicine..."

Except they haven't given me a taste of my own medicine, m' dear Jock. Instead, they, you in the main, have been defending a stinking bigot by attacking me and making false and un-warranted accusations.

They, mainly you, have not been addresssing the points I have raised on the topic and have tried desperately to turn the conversation into a slanging match.

Why?

" then maybe you should go to a forum where you behaviour is tolerated"

Uh huh. You'll be cutting and pasting this alleged intolerabe behaviour then? Yes? Thx.
147

chatnic,

Australia 11/07/2008 03:13:44
156 Finnking, Lempäälä 10/07/2008 19:13:23

"I like your use of the word 'mutate' to describe the transfer of power westwards and the changes made"

It applies to ALL major powers involved. Though yes, the Westward Ho of the goode olde USA continues and does extend across the Pacific and on....but they're not the only players to expand, lie, cheat, slaughter and then try to justify it with more lies, religion, anything they can think of to be 'right'.

"The US have really got herd control down to its most efficient so far."

The Coalition of the Willing herded their own into the Neocon/PNAC warmongering fold.

"But it doesn't work in other countries"

Alas, it does to varying degrees.

"Get rid of nation states; it's the only solution!"

Nation States were, at one point in International thinking, 'the' solution. Never the less, what would you suggest in their place.

Democracy, Socialism, Communism, borders, States etc are all vast social experiments. None is 'the' answer, they're all attempts to maintain control and balance in the face of humanity's weaknesses. The systems humanity adopts are not the problem or the answer to humanity's in-humanity, fear, greed and bastardry.

Humanity's foibles can be and are harnessed by Governments, leaders and those out to make a fast buck on the backs of others. The answer lies in the individual, care, tolerance and respect. Do unto others. Hillel nailed it.

"Thanks for the chat"

A pleasure.
148

,

11/07/2008 04:13:57
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