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Hamas chief's son among 19 killed in Israeli attack



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Published Date: 16 January 2008
THOUSANDS of angry mourners marched through Gaza yesterday to bury the son of the Strip's most senior Hamas leader, killed alongside 18 other Palestinians in an Israeli incursion on the single worst day of fighting in the territory since 2006.
It was a devastating personal blow for Mahmoud Zahar, the Hamas strongman and founder who masterminded the Islamic movement's takeover of Gaza last year.

Hamas sources said that his son, Hussam Zahar, 24, was killed after an Israeli missile st
ruck his car. Hussam Zahar served as an armed bodyguard for his father, but the Israeli army said he was not deliberately targeted and that it learned only afterwards of his death.

Zahar's eldest son, Khaled, was killed in a botched assassination attempt five years ago when Israeli jets bombed the family residence.

At the morgue at Shifa hospital in Gaza City, Zahar held his lifeless son's bloodied head in his hands and closed his eyes, then kissed him three times on the forehead and recited verses from the Koran.

Zahar was accompanied by his brother Yousef Zafar – a police commander – and his sole remaining son, Mohammed.

Hamas, he vowed, will respond to Tuesday's raid "in the appropriate way – we will defend ourselves by all means".

Hamas immediately stepped up its involvement in the daily barrage of rocket and mortar fire on southern Israel. While allowing other militant factions to attack southern Israeli communities with impunity, the Islamic militant group has not taken the lead in the assaults in recent months.

As fighting raged in Gaza, a Hamas sniper shot and killed an Ecuadorian volunteer working in the potato fields of an Israeli border farm.

Major Avital Leibovitz, an Israeli army spokeswoman, described the incursion as a "routine operation" to thwart cross-border rocket fire and infiltration attempts. The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights said that five civilians were among the dead and accused the army of using "excessive lethal force without regard for the lives of Palestinian civilians in the affected areas".

In Gaza City, more than 20,000 mourners crowded a mosque to pray for the dead.

Speaking of the Israeli incursions, Salah Bardawil, a Hamas MP, said: "We link this to Bush's visit," referring to last week's attempt by the US president to push forward negotiations between Israel and the moderate Palestinian government in the West Bank.

"Bush gave the green light to the Israelis not only for this incursion but also to inflict losses and carry out bloodletting against the Palestinian people and the resistance."

FURY OF HAMAS MASTERMIND

MAHMOUD Zahar, a physician trained in Egypt, masterminded Hamas's armed takeover of Gaza from president Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah movement in June, and previously served as foreign minister in the government Hamas formed after it won parliamentary elections in 2006.

Mr Zahar has described the creation of "Hamastan" as a goal of Hamas.

He is known to agree with the hardest of Hamas hardliners, who refuse to accept the existence of Israel. On 14 June, 2006, Palestinian officials reported that Mr Zahar – who was then serving as foreign minister – brought 12 suitcases stuffed with $26.7 million in cash into Gaza through its border with Egypt.

Mr Zahar yesterday accused the moderate Mr Abbas of complicity in his son's death for negotiating with Israel.

"This is the hope of Abu Mazen and his colleagues, the collaborators with Israel and the spies of America," Mr Zahar said, using Mr Abbas's nickname.



The full article contains 580 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 15 January 2008 8:49 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Middle East conflict
 
1

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 16/01/2008 01:07:07
Israel has driven Hamas to violence. We were moving into a time-period when there was very little violence from the Palestinians, and Israel just had to keep pounding them. We must remember that Israel kills over 30 Palestinians for every Israeli that the Palestinians kill. and then there's the relentless economic persecution against the Palestinians.

Here's an article about the World Bank's assessment of the economic persecution against Gaza.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/881324.html

and here's an article about how the Israeli government just keeps turning the screws.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/879/re2.htm

Israel should choose peace not war, life not death.
2

FrancesP,

16/01/2008 01:41:46
"Major Avital Leibovitz, an Israeli army spokeswoman, described the incursion as a 'routine operation'."

Can you imagine the fury in Israel if anyone described the deaths of five Israeli civilians as 'routine'? The hypocrisy and cynicism is - as ever - breathtaking.
3

57Nomad,

california 16/01/2008 01:44:26
#1 Wally

Wally said:

"Israel has driven Hamas to violence. We were moving into a time-period when there was very little violence from the Palestinians, and Israel just had to keep pounding them."

Wally I was wondering if you read this part of the article that references Mr.Zahar "He is known to agree with the hardest of Hamas hardliners, who refuse to accept the existence of Israel."

Did you get that? He believes that Israel shouldn't exist. Is that what you mean by 'pushing Hamas to violence? You mean by existing, they are pushing on Hamas? Just existing. Because that's what Zahar believes. He believes that as long as the state of Israel exists then there is a state of war. The only way to placate them is for Israel to become extinct. In defending the butchers of Hamas you have joined them.











4

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 16/01/2008 02:52:31
King Nimrod in #3:

any casual observer can see that it is Israel who will not allow Palestine to exist freely, not the other way around.
5

thewitness,

16/01/2008 04:47:58
Zionism is a mental ilness.
6

Dáithí,

San Jose 16/01/2008 04:56:47
#4 - Walleye

>"any casual observer can see that it is Israel who will not allow Palestine to exist freely, not the other way around. "

Sorry Walleye, wrong - again. Still.

They don't want Israel to exist. They invaded it the day it was created in 1949. They will continue to do so until it goes away.



7

Dáithí,

San Jose 16/01/2008 05:02:05
From the article:

"to bury the son of the Strip's most senior Hamas leader, killed alongside 18 other Palestinians in an Israeli incursion..."

Good riddance! Since these Hamas mercenaries would be strapping on bombs so that they could recieve their mercenary payment, obviously hundreds of innocent lives were saved by the actions of Israel.

Good job, Israel.
8

Finnking,

Lempäälä 16/01/2008 05:40:57
Nomad

So, if I deny the existence of God, will there be some moral justification for God to kill me?

If Ohio decides to go it alone ( ;-) ), and Washington simply denies that they are a valid nation, would Washington be morally justified in attacking them?

Just a thought.

Se on minä.

Daithi: Tell me, what's the difference between suicide bombs and Apache gunships? Is there some Technological Morality Scale that I don't know about?
9

Dáithí,

San Jose 16/01/2008 05:53:29
#8 - Finnking (or whoever you are)

">Daithi: Tell me, what's the difference between suicide bombs and Apache gunships? Is there some Technological Morality Scale that I don't know about?"

I'm guessing that there is a lot that you don't know about.

Bombers target civilians. Apache helicopters target bombers.

Unfortunately, the bombers hide behind civilians - or claim to be civilians when they are shot.

If you run into amy more moral dilemmas that exceed your grasp, feel free to seek my assistance again.

10

St. Helena,

Peebles 16/01/2008 06:26:23
And they say there is no Santa Claus.
11

Ciderman 542000,

Forres 16/01/2008 07:05:00
Daithi # Various

Your attempts at snide putdowns do not change the fact that Israel is engaged in genocidal actions against the Palestininians. It is hardly a coincidence that the increase in Israeli attacks follow the visit there of George Bush. Bush is a collaborator in this and other war crimes.
He is no better than Saddam Hussein was.
12

St. Helena,

Peebles 16/01/2008 07:22:12
#11 - 'He (Bush) is no better than Saddam Hussein was'.

How breathtakingly stupid of you.
13

Jacobite,

Scotland 16/01/2008 07:55:27
BUSH IS WORSE THAN OSAMA BIN LADIN

HE IS THE #1 TERRORIST AND FULLY BACKED BY THE OIL COMPANIES.

HE HAS SENT YOUNG AMERICANS TO THEIR GRAVES SO HE CAN GIVE THE OIL COMPANIES OBSCENE PROFITS

WHERE ARE THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION??????

AND IN HIS LAST YEAR AS PRESIDENT HE IS ARRANGING PEACE TALKS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE

WHAT A 24 CARAT NUMPTY OR USELESS PIECE OF CR*P
14

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 16/01/2008 07:55:35
FrancesP: "Can you imagine the fury in Israel if anyone described the deaths of five Israeli civilians as 'routine'? The hypocrisy and cynicism is - as ever - breathtaking."

Sure, I can imagine the fury. For many Palestinians, the deaths of Israeli civilians are not only "routine" but are cause for great celebration. OK, so it is infuriating. And, no doubt, various statements from IDF spokespeople such as the one quoted in this article infuriate Palestinians. Where is the breathtaking hypocrisy and cynicism in this?

thewitness: "Zionism is a mental ilness."

Life is a sexually transmitted disease, and it's always fatal.

Finnking: "So, if I deny the existence of God, will there be some moral justification for God to kill me?"

Wrong analogy, and bringing God into the picture complicates things. Why compare one side or another to God? Why get into questions about what "moral justification" even means with respect to God's power over life and death?

If is really very simple: If you are trying to kill someone, that someone is morally justified to kill you in self-defence.
15

oder,

Scotland 16/01/2008 08:14:24
Wally *1

"Israel has driven Hamas to violence"


"Mr Zahar yesterday accused the moderate Mr Abbas of complicity in his son's death for negotiating with Israel.

wrong Wally! Israel`s only crime is to exist!
16

ImSparticus,

Fife 16/01/2008 08:16:57
Those `Jews who choose to be Zionist... Indeed they are a danger to World Peace
We Need to be Rid of the Trouble makers.
17

ddmc,

16/01/2008 08:20:40
#6 how can you invade your own country ?

#14 If is really very simple: If you are trying to kill someone, that someone is morally justified to kill you in self-defence. I suppose in your eyes it only works one way, who killed who first, by your statement Palestinians have that same moral right.

Israel created Hamas as a foil to Arafat's PLO & now they are in power (legally elected,without any electoral interference unlike Gee Boosh)Israel doesn't like it.

You can't have it all your own way, perhaps if your astounding hypocracy regarding nukes wasn't so obvious you might have gained international support over Iran.

Iran knows full well if they attack Israel with nukes they will become the biggest glob of Trinitite the world has ever seen. They may be anti-Israel but there not stupid.
18

malkster,

Scotland 16/01/2008 08:30:36
#17

Stupidity cannot be measured in your terms when talking about extremists. I would say it was stupid to blow yourself up at a bus stop. The reason we can never allow Iran to have nuclear weapons is that we cannot guarantee that one day somebody who tyhinks blowing themselves up at a bus stop is clever has the key.
19

,

16/01/2008 08:32:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
20

lielayer,

16/01/2008 08:49:31
The Zionist Occupation of Palestine: Old Facts, Cold Realities.

This article was written 55 years ago. What has changed since then?

http://www.albalagh.net/current_affairs/king_abdullah_palestine.shtml
21

ddmc,

16/01/2008 08:56:33
#17 fair point, but whats to stop any nuclear power doing so, if you want to really point fingers then G Bush is a raving loony i think most of us agree who wants a nuclear war, Israel has threatned to nuke anybody they percieve as an 'existencial (sp) threat' & Pakistan is on the verge of civil war, China for all it's recent steps forward is still a communist country, N.Korea is run by a meglomaniac, putin is determined to 'run' Russia in some form, Sarkorsky & Broon will follow the US regardless of what sh!te they get us into, India perhaps, who are you most scared off in starting a nuclear war ?
22

,

16/01/2008 09:12:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
23

malkster,

Scotland 16/01/2008 09:22:52
#21

None of the named countries generally harbour and or support people who think the epitomy of tactics is to kill yourself and take the target down with you. Self preservation has prevented anybody using Nuclear weapons in anger since 1945. The problem with places like Iran is that some idiot would actually consider it a fair swap to lose half his country in exchange for the complete destruction of Israel.
24

,

16/01/2008 09:24:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
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25

anti--Hun,

Fortress Ibrox...ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha 16/01/2008 09:44:22
Israel is an oasis surrounded by a sea of vipers...what do you people expect them to do. Thank God for Israel. One day when the Iranians produce their bomb, Israel will do what the west have no stomach to do and that's wipe these cretins off the face of the earth
26

ddmc,

16/01/2008 11:26:54
C'mon Malkster, why are Iranians classed as extremest's and not the other countries i mention, Israel's desire to remove palistine from the map is extreme, the USA has invaded more countries than anyone else since WW2 ended, thats extreme, pakistan & india were alledgedly 1 hour away from launching, thats extreme, China & russia don't have great human rights protection thats extreme etc etc etc, there is no proof that Iran would attack anyone, thats just spin like the 'wipe' Israel off the map quote which was translated for our benefit by an Israeli organisation, where the correct translation was remove from the pages of history, a big difference.

I don't have an issue with Israel 'protecting itself' but they provoke as much as Hamas/fatah etc. Hamas has agreed to recognise Israel if Israel recognise palistine on the original agreed borders not the extra land they assumed after 67'. Seems like a fair deal but Israel refuse to acknowledge palistine.

#26 troll
27

Elderberry,

16/01/2008 12:33:18
8 Finnking,Lempäälä

Harassing Troll, why do you come back and disrupt the Scotsman from time to time?
28

Elderberry,

16/01/2008 12:38:09
#9, please do not feed the troll.
29

Number 6,

Germany 16/01/2008 14:59:09
As I predicted to howls of derision from the yeehas and their surrogate sons, no sooner was the ink on a piece deal that Israel immediatley launches attacks, announces more settlements etc etc. It's now getting out of hand and something has to be done to stop them slaughtering the entire population of gazza.

I saw adocumentary thet showed you the intensive care unit of a children's hospital. Viewers watched in horror as the horrendous israelies turned off the power again to the region , knowing dam well that people, including new born babies would die as a result. What a dreadful race of people who don't deserve a minutes peace with these actions.

They should feel ashamed to the core but of course they don't.
30

Number 6,

Germany 16/01/2008 15:02:08
#25 Dragonbrain .And there are now more than 31/2 thousand less americans slaughtering civillians in Iraq, not to mention the hundreds of thousands who are no longer the men they were, now missing a limb or 2 , not to mention their sanity. You see, it works both ways.
31

thewitness,

16/01/2008 15:20:55
#26
You should check out the website below. I'm sure you would enjoy living in the "Oasis" of Tel-Aviv, 250+ brothels and masonic lodges everywhere!

www.ExportABigot.co.uk - Free flight,job on arrival!
(WARNING: Shabbos goy may have problems buying poperty once they reach the Oasis. Take a tent. No Bibles.)
32

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 16/01/2008 15:22:00
Number 6 in 30 & 31:

since the Annapolis peace meeting the Israelis have actually increased the rate at which they kill Palestinians. If they keep this up it may not be merely 1 per day that they kill, but 2 per day.

The Palestinians seem to have increased their violence as well, but as they were killing at less than 1 per month it is a small up--tick by comparison.

The result of the peace meetings the last couple months are that now anyone who pays attention knows that for the Israelis 'peace initiatives' are merely public relations ploys. They've made it clear that they're going to continue with the illegal settlements, they're going to continue the economic persecution and the violence.

It is also clearly demonstrated that all the Israelis have to do is go through the motions and many will believe that they're trying their best to achieve peace.
33

,

16/01/2008 15:27:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
34

FrancesP,

16/01/2008 15:29:53
#14. "For many Palestinians, the deaths of Israeli civilians are not only 'routine' but are cause for great celebration." This statement is a contradiction in terms - nothing that is 'routine' would ever be a cause for 'great celebration'. It would instead be the cause of a mere shrug of the shoulders, the standard reponse in Israel to the death of Palestinian civilians.

By the way, the celebration of an innocent death is absolutely repugnant. But is it any less disgusting to kill scores of civilians and barely even notice it, as if those lives were worthless, as if they weren't quite as human as you are? Just how many Palestinians have to die before it counts for as much as one Israeli death? Five? Twenty? A hundred?
35

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 16/01/2008 15:30:36
FinnKing - it makes no sense to me why those comments were removed. It is also is very puzzling how someone is able to post with my exact screen name of 'Wally'. and the same has happened to several other posters. Why is this? The software is not secure? The passwords & e-mails are being acquired from the inside of Scotsman computer system? something smells bad about it.

maybe someone doesn't want us to participate.
36

Dáithí,

San Jose 16/01/2008 15:31:50
#11 - Ciderman

>"Your attempts at snide putdowns do not change the fact that Israel is engaged in genocidal actions against the Palestininians. "

Fristly, it wasn't an 'attempted' snide put-down, it was an actual, successful snide put down.

Secondly, Israel is a state that is recognized by the UN. If you don't like the UN, campaign to get out of it.

Thirdly, Israel is attempting to eradicate suicide bombers. Until the Palestinians police themselves to remove these religious mercenaries then Israel will have to do it for them.

As I said in post #1, good riddance.
37

,

16/01/2008 16:04:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

thewitness,

16/01/2008 16:04:31
#37
You say..."Secondly, Israel is a state that is recognized by the UN. If you don't like the UN, campaign to get out of it."

The UN is a criminal network, a sickness and a pushover for the Zionists. Israel does not recognise the UN. Israel is in breach of no less than 70 UN Security Council Resolutions, making Israel a world leading "rogue state".

70 UN Security Council Resolutions, 2 fingers up, go figure!
39

,

16/01/2008 16:07:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 16/01/2008 16:15:24
40 FinnKing - so screen names don't have to be unique. That's a new twist. I don't know of any other discussion forums that have innovated in that manner.
41

Dáithí,

San Jose 16/01/2008 16:25:07
#39 - thewitness

>"The UN is a criminal network..."

OK, then why should Israel do what they command?

>"a sickness and a pushover for the Zionists"

Then why would they pass '70 resolutions' against Israel if they are 'a pushover for the Zionists?'

As usual, your own statements conflict with each other.
42

,

16/01/2008 16:27:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
43

Dáithí,

San Jose 16/01/2008 16:30:20
#38 - finnking

>"It defies belief that there are people today who still think in terms of "left" and "right" without taking into account the "authoritarian" versus "libertarian" axis."

Exactly! That's why, when I first started posting here I recommended a site called 'The Political Compass' at

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

I an in the centerline on the left/right axis and one line towards the libertarian side.

Take the test, you might be surprised how you do.
44

,

16/01/2008 16:35:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
45

,

16/01/2008 16:39:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
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46

,

16/01/2008 16:49:55
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47

Abu Nudnik,

Canada 16/01/2008 16:52:24
As Paul Landau states, "Hamas is a radical Islamic movement whose worldview is marked by an Islamic eschatology in which the Jews occupy a central place. Its apocalyptic vision of a final confrontation with Israel excludes every possibility of coexistence or “moderation.” This vision is identical with that of the most radical Jihadist movements.

"Far from being merely an epiphenomenon, the anti-Semitism of Hamas constitutes the very core of its political-religious doctrine. The hatred of Jews expressed in the Hamas Charter and conveyed in the discourse of its officials is not simply a religious anti-Judaism or an imported anti-Semitism of European origins. It is, as the French scholar of anti-Semitism Pierre-André Taguieff has put it in his book “La nouvelle judéophobie,” a “millenarian and redemptive anti-Semitism.” Taguieff compares radical Islamic Judeophobia — in terms of which “the Muslim world can only be saved by the extermination of the Jews” — to the racist anti-Semitism of Hitler."

So before Wally suggests Israel has driven Hamas to violence (!) he ought to read Hamas's Charter. Here's where: http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
48

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 16/01/2008 17:06:39
one can make all sorts of ideological arguments against either Hamas or the Zionists. Let's not forget that Protocols of Zion document. But I suggest that sane people should look at the actions of these parties and not focus so much on what somebody says is their ideology.

The facts are that since 2000 the level of violence committed by the Palestinians towards the Israelis has declined very very dramatically. Only in the last 1-2 months does it seem that the Palestinians have increased that very low level of violence. and even with this increase the palestinian violence does not come anywhere near the quantity of Israeli violence against the Palestinians. The Israelis routinely kill Palestinians, they arrest them, they prevent their economy from functioning, etc., the persecution from Israel is enormous. We should focus on that and not worry so much about what someone says the Hamas ideology is.

Did Hamas arrange for warfare between Israeli political parties? No, but the state of Israel did funnel money & weaponry to Fatah who warred on Hamas. The conflict has become extremely one-sided. and yet the Palestinians who are the victims of almost all of the violence & persecution are still blamed. this is insane.
49

Abu Nudnik,

16/01/2008 17:15:53
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was a FORGERY, you IDIOT!
50

boudica,

Glasgow 16/01/2008 17:16:37
Abu-Nudnik....It is of no use telling these haters of The Jewish people they do not want the Truth or Facts they prefer to Blame the Jewish people for all the Woes of the World and you are right again the Muslim Extremists hold Hitler in High regard for his mistreatment of the jewish people and the Islamo Nazi`s dogs of today will go the same way the Nazi`s went ..it took the World a longtime to realise how dangerous Hitlers was but he was brought down and so will this pack of Dogs..
51

Abu Nudnik,

16/01/2008 17:29:52
Not only do they admire Hitler, they conspired with him. Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem helped create the Bosnian SS and wrote Hitler and Mussolini asking their blessing for a "final solution" to Palestine's Jewish "problem." This was the man who was to be the leader of the new Palestine. The Jews who had escaped Hitler were now to live under this man without the foundation of a self-defending state. Anti-Semitism is the REASON for the necessity for the founding of the state of Israel. thanks, Boudica. You're right. Jew-haters seek only that news that cements their prejudices.
52

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 16/01/2008 17:32:50
an Israeli human rights group measures the number of deaths on each side due to this conflict. About 4-6 months ago they released a statement saying that in the 12-month period ended shortly before their statement the Israelis had killed 457 Palestinians and the Palestinians had killed 10 Israelis. Since this time the level of violence committed by both sides has up-ticked slightly. But the Israelis build settlements in the Palestinian land. The Palestinians do not build settlements in the Israeli's land. The Israelis took the tax revenue of the Palestinian government and then give it to the opposition party which then waged war against the majority Hamas who won the election. The Palestinians do not interfere in Israeli business like that. The Israelis have arrested thousands and thousands of Palestinians, we sometimes read that 11,000 are imprisoned. and many have no real charges against them, it is merely a political arrest. About half the elected lawmakers of Palestine have been arrested. Many leading Palestinian officials have been murdered by the Israeli government, sometimes with their families being murdered too. The Palestinians do none of this to the Israelis. The Israelis use all manner of methods to make economic harassment. They don't allow critical items to be imported to palestine and thus the palestinian economy is destroyed. There are economic sanctions against the occupied Palestinian territory that stop medicines from being imported. The persecution the Palestinians face is horrific.

and we read on these pages that it is all justified because of adolph hitler apparently. when in reality there is no excuse.
53

Dáithí,

San Jose 16/01/2008 17:38:58
#47 - Walleye

>"Everyone please note that Datey is the one promoting xxxx as he is the one making it an issue.

I named no site. You name it twice, to make sure that readers got it right.

>"Datey listed about 10 screen names from there and asserted that they are all lefties."

I made no such assertion either, show me where I did.

I merely pointed out that the names that are there have been cloned here, with the exception of you, and that the listowner there has motivation, as well as a history, of trying to disrupt things here.
54

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 16/01/2008 17:50:56
Datey, you promoted that web site by raising the issue, not just once but repeatedly and not merely on this thread. You said above that they disrupt this site because they're lefties, perhaps that was a comment that was removed.
55

Ciderman 542000,

16/01/2008 17:52:31
Dáithí # 37

We get people like you on here everytime there is criticism of Israel. We know that nauseating people like you are apologists for the unspeakable acts of the IDF and probably in their employ. In a areasonable world Israel and it's rulers would be held to account for their decisions.
Look at the crimes that Israel's rulers perpetrate on their own people, rape and fraud and you can see how they would have contempt for any life. The Palestinians should be armed in the way that Israel is. Israel then would consider peace as a serious option.
56

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 16/01/2008 17:59:54
we see more of the hitler-cult ideology in 52 from AbuLudnik. a Palestinian leader wrote a friendly letter to Hitler and cooperated in some manner back during WW2. and so this allegedly justifies the Israeli hatred of Palestinians that fuels the endless war against them. and anyone who criticizes the endless war is to be labeled a jew-hater. but Ghandi of India also wrote a friendly letter to Hitler during the war and said positive things about the ethnic cleansing policy against Jews. Would the AbuLudniks of the world now call for war on India as a result? There were Americans & Brits who worked on the side of the NAZIs as well. One recalls that President Bush's grandfather was arrested in October, 1942 for helping the NAZIs.

Why is it that some people do not forgive? EVER???!??? Why is it that some people don't just automatically wake up in the morning and seek peace instead of war? You ask these people why it is that they still favor killing Palestinians every day and they talk about unrelated things from 65 years ago. and then they say you ask them this question because you hate jews.
57

Ciderman 542000,

Forres 16/01/2008 18:01:19
Abu Nudnik # 50

You are right it was a forgery. But, it looks like a lot of people in the Israel hierarchy thought it was good idea.
58

Ciderman 542000,

16/01/2008 18:05:37
Wally # 57

Prescott Bush.
59

Andrew Allan,

16/01/2008 18:27:01
Unfortunately the saying he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword maybe seen as being apt here, I say unfortunately as even though neither side here is anywhere near being innocent, life is worth far more than these people have been treating it.
60

Dáithí,

San Jose 16/01/2008 18:38:03
#56 - Ciderman

>"We get people like you on here everytime there is criticism of Israel"

Yep.

It's called 'free speech', apparently you have a problem with it?
61

Dáithí,

San Jose 16/01/2008 18:39:34
#55 - Walleye (or whomever)

>"You said above that they disrupt this site because they're lefties, perhaps that was a comment that was removed."

Perhaps the comment never existed.
62

Ciderman 542000,

Forres 16/01/2008 18:41:21
The criminal leadership of Israel is deluded if they believe that they will ensure their security by victimising and terrorisng their neighbours. Deluded!
63

Ciderman 542000,

Forres 16/01/2008 18:47:04
Dáithí # 61

Where do my comments say I have a problem with "free speech?" Israel has a problem with "free speech." Mordechai Vanunu ring any bells?
The government of Israel refuses to admit or deny that it has nuclear weapons, therefore the population cannot make a decision on whether they want them, or not. Israel is not a democracy.
64

Dáithí,

San Jose 16/01/2008 18:56:38
#64 - Ciderman

>"Where do my comments say I have a problem with "free speech?" "

When you complain about me posting.
65

Ciderman 542000,

Forres 16/01/2008 19:13:32
Dáithí # 65

To whom have I complained about your posts? You and those like you are apologists for the nauseating, criminal Israeli government.
In the meantime I reiterate the sentiments on my posts #s 11, 56, 58, 59, 63, 64.
You cannot repudiate any of these posts, you do not attempt to, because what is posted is true; and you know that.
I will not back off because you attack me. If I lived in Gaza your masters would attempt to silence via the Israeli death machine. But, I live in a democracy, not controlled by Israeli terrorists, where democracy and "free speech" are the norm.
Israel has a few years to come to terms with their Palestinian neighbour; American hegemony in the world is on the wane. When that is a fact there will be few outside of Israel and the US who will lament that.
66

Dáithí,

San Jose 16/01/2008 19:24:57
#66 - Ciderman

>"where democracy and "free speech" are the norm."

Really? then waht was the point of your sentence "We get people like you on here everytime there is criticism of Israel" if not to protest that 'people like me' get on and post items disagreeable to you?

>"You cannot repudiate any of these posts, you do not attempt to, because what is posted is true; and you know that.

Sure I can. They are wrong. Let's try now:

#11 - Israel is engaged in genocidal actions against the Palestininians.

Nope. They are rightfully protecting themselves against Palestinian mercenaries who expect payment on virgins.

#56 - "We know that nauseating people like you are apologists for the unspeakable acts"

Typical hater, you have to call people names. Self-defense is not 'unspeakable acts'.

#58 - hard to argue here when you state that it was a 'forgery'. You were proven wrong.

>"If I lived in Gaza your masters would attempt to silence via the Israeli death machine".

No, we'd attempt to take your bomb from you before you hurt yourself. You'll have to earn your virgins the old fashioned way.
67

lielayer,

16/01/2008 19:32:20
The Jewish identity in the future appears bleak. Any nation that remains anchored to the past is unable to move ahead and, especially a nation that believes its survival can only be ensured by weapons and bombs.

We have created a culture of violence (Israel and the Jews are the biggest players) and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity.

Arun Gandhi - President and co-founder of the M.K. Gandhi Institute for Nonviolence.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/arun_gandhi/2008/01/jewish_identity_in_the_past.html
68

,

16/01/2008 19:50:42
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69

57Nomad,

16/01/2008 20:03:30
#8 Finnking

Finnking asks:

"So, if I deny the existence of God, will there be some moral justification for God to kill me?

If Ohio decides to go it alone ( ;-) ), and Washington simply denies that they are a valid nation, would Washington be morally justified in attacking them?

In what way is the statement your first paragraph analogous to the situation under discussion? For it to be germane, you would have to have the ability to kill God. You see, Hamas has the ability to kill Israelis. For the sake of discussion let's stipulate that you did have the ability to kill God and you made it plain to one and all that you intended to do just that. By adding this proviso your analogy is now apropos. But you won't like the conclusion because in that case God would certainly have cause to kill you first, before you carried out your threat.

As for Ohio going it alone, once again you seem to misread reality. It's already been tried. It's called the American Civil War. Yes, the Federal government would have every right, in fact a duty to secure Ohio, and by force if necessary.
70

thewitness,

16/01/2008 20:31:40
#48
You quote Paul Landau, who's he?
"Far from being merely an epiphenomenon, the anti-Semitism of Hamas constitutes the very core of its political-religious doctrine.
Landau
Mr Landau is wrong, the ruling elite of Zionists in Israel are of the Turko-Mongolian tribe of Khazars, not semitic.
How can Hamas be accused of anti-semitism?
You have been duped mate!

[Note: "Kagan" or 'Khagan' is the Khazarian word for 'King'. More than 90% of Jews today are not Semitic, nor are their ancestors. They are of the Turko-Mongolian tribe of Khazars, whose Kagan adopted Talmudism around 740 A.D.]

Taken from: The Nameless War
by Captain Archibald Maule Ramsay
http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/
Archibald.Maule.Ramsay/The.Nameless.War/00.Introduction.htm
71

American,

16/01/2008 20:32:48
You go Israel!!
72

Ciderman 542000,

Forres 16/01/2008 20:47:32
Dáithí, # 67

Israel is not involved in self defence, it is involved in Genoside. The government of Israel is involved in Genoside, twist it how you will. You have not repudiated any of my posts, you are impostent to do so. Your only friend in the world is the US: that will cease as the US considers the cost to themselves of supporting you. That cost is not just in terms of cash, but international prestige and soldiers killed and wounded in Israel's proxy wars.
The end is nigh; Israel is not a friend of the US, or the world.
The "G" word above, has been wrongly spelt on account of the Scotsman's censor programme.
73

Chaya,

Israel 16/01/2008 20:51:48
Amazing!!! There is absolutely no mention of the barrage of 40 rockets that fell on Israel and wounded people!!! Do you think we strike these terrorists for fun??? And - yes - we try to strike only the terrorists!! These terrorists have been shooting rockets at Sderot and environs for the past seven years!!! SEVEN YEARS!! And we left Gaza!! We left Gaza something like two years ago and they continue to shoot rockets at us!!! We left them hothouses which they dismantled in order to build tunnels underneath to bring in weapons!! Hamas is no different than Al-Queda!! And the only difference between Hamas and Fatah is Fatah is more secular and they differ in tactics not goals.
74

Ciderman 542000,

16/01/2008 20:58:43
Chaya # 74

Do you think we strike these terrorists for fun???

Change of shift at the IDF propaganda brigade?
Yes we do think that you kill your neighbours for fun. Any spontaneous prosecutions in the pipeline for IDF personnel who kill innocent civilians?
75

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 16/01/2008 22:07:33
Chaya's comment in 74 is comical. We know that 5 Israelis were injured recently from the rockets. But The Israelis kill Palestinians every day and this has been going on for years. Palestinian hospitals in Gaza at least don't even have basic medicines to treat patients thanks to the Israeli schemes. Palestinians die every day not just from the Israeli troops killing them, but also from the economic disruptions including the prohibition of medical supplies that are imposed by Israel.

There are many accounts of Israeli soldiers destroying Palestinian businesses, destroying as in ransacking the offices, destroying files, furniture, machinery, inventory, etc. The Israelis do it for fun. Typical Palestinians must wait in line 2 hours at a checkpoint just to go to a market, and then 2 hours more to come home. The same is true when they go to work, to school, to visit people, etc. Their whole nation is paralyzed by these things. and we are lectured that we should be knowledgeable of the 5 Israelis allegedly injured.

Judgement is coming.
76

Chaya,

Eretz Yisrael 16/01/2008 22:08:57
Ciderman - if that is what you think, then you are delusional. You are a victim of the extreme left wing's propaganda against Israel. If you think of yourself as an intelligent being, then I suggest you find out what is really going on instead of getting your information from extreme left and anti-Semitic web sites. You are so incredibly wrong. How dare you judge us without knowing the real facts!!
77

American,

16/01/2008 22:16:38
#77-chaya-try not to take offense at what some of these terrorist sympathizers post. And yes, they do listen to left-wing propaganda. BTW-Wally from (USA) is probably really not from the USA. He's probably just someone typing from his mosque.
78

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 16/01/2008 22:20:58
Back in 2000 & 2001 there were suicide bombers regularly against Israel. They tended to blow themselves up among the minority arab-Israelis rathern than euro-Israelis. But the frequency of these events have declined dramatically. I think maybe there was one suicide bombing in Israel by a Palestinian in the last 2 years. The Israelis today who die in this conflict are generally randomly killed civilians victims of the rockets. The rockets are sent to Israel very regularly, but over 95% of the time hit nothing.

When you actually look at the killings of Palestinians by Israelis, then yes it is evident that many of them are done out of pure hatred, it is reasonable to think possibly the Israelis have fun doing this. There are documented cases of Israeli soldiers stalking and then killing Palestinian children simply out of a strong desire to do so. In one case an Israeli soldier testified that they knew one soldier among them was insane and that he would kill Palestinians if he could, then he did kill a Palestinian child, regardless he was not found guilty in the trial though all evidence showed he did murder.

So it is now, the Israelis are growing very comfortable in their abuse of the Palestinians. But they need for the Palestinians to attack Israel sometimes in order to justify the constant persecution of Palestinians.

The whole thing doesn't make sense in that the Israeli's efforts would be so much better spent in a different direction. But it doesn't matter to the Israelis, it is a pathology that drives them. just like the American soldiers who have learned to love killing arabs - it is a pathology. not to say that evil does not drive this pathology.
79

Chaya,

16/01/2008 22:33:17
Yes, his name is probably Walid. In any case, read the following written by an Iranian (non-Jew):

http://www.frontpagemag.com:80/GoPostal/commentdetail.aspx?GUID=1598104e-1586-4cef-9a11-4e12fee429ad&commentID=f81dc050-a251-474f-b24a-3e37102334d6
80

57Nomad,

california 16/01/2008 22:51:31
#79 Wally

Wally said:

"Back in 2000 & 2001 there were suicide bombers regularly against Israel. They tended to blow themselves up among the minority arab-Israelis rathern than euro-Israelis. But the frequency of these events have declined dramatically. I think maybe there was one suicide bombing in Israel by a Palestinian in the last 2 years."

The homicide bombings that took place in Israel during Intifada II, tailed off for one reason and it will give you and your cohorts apoplexy. I can't see into the future but if I had to guess this will set you guys sputtering with outrage. Maybe not, but I think so.

From 1999 to 2003 Saddam Husein gave the families of the killers checks for, at first, 15,000 dollars. And, by the way the checks were written is US dollars, the families being too shrewd to accept any of the local currency. Then, humanitarian that he is, a couple of years later he upped the payoffs to $25,000. During the intifada Saddam doled out over 10,000,000 dollars to the families of the bombers. Then, as if by magic, the flow of homicide bombers dried up noticeably, as you have pointed out.

Why do you think they could get all the homicide bombers they could handle prior to 2003 but very few after that date? Care to take a wild guess? Anything noteworthy happen at that time? Well? Anybody, anybody, Bueller?

No hands? Ok, I'll give you a hint. We invaded Iraq and deposed Saddam. That's what happened. Quite naturally, the payments to the 'martyr's' family quit coming in, what with Saddam hiding in a dirt hole, replaced by condolences from the local mullah.

Coincidence? You be the judge.
81

thewitness,

16/01/2008 23:09:02
#80
http://www.frontpagemag.com
Run by a Zionist jew by the name of David Horowitz.
This website should be shut down and the people who peddle the warmongering on it should be hunted down.
They need to be removed from their homes, placed in cuffs and stuck behind bars and when convicted of treason and plotting war they should be sat in an electric chair.
82

Lynne,

USA 16/01/2008 23:20:21
Wally, you are the boil on the a** of human beings.
You spout utter garbage about who hates who and who kills with determination and hate.
Everyone knows the Palestinians want one thing..for Israel to vanish off the earth..of course with their help.
They have done suicide bombs, rockets, began wars, and failed. All in the name of hate. (read their charter).
Israel defnds itself. It will never sit by and and doing nothing. That is how 6 million perished. NEVER AGAIN. You say that Palestinians wait in line for hours at checkpoints to go shopping. Well, that is the
result of strapping on bombs. They have only themselves to blame.
83

Lynne,

USA 16/01/2008 23:22:55
the witless #80.. if everyone followed that plan, all of Hamas and Hezbollah would be lined up waiting for their turn to sit in the electric chair.
84

Wally,

By the Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 16/01/2008 23:32:54
thank you king Nimrod for that excellent response in #81. you may be correct in that the elimination of the Hussein government may have played a role. and I may not have figured that out either because I was assuming that the Palestinians had stopped doing those suicide bombings because they joined choirs and become choir-boys which is what they were before the Israelis attacked them.

But I do not think we should be fighting wars on behalf of Israel. and won't you agree with me that we shouldn't have helped Saddam to come to power in the first place.

My real thinking as to why the suicide bombings subsided is that I think Palestine is beaten up pretty bad by Israel. They were losing the war and so tried to quit. But Israel won't quit is my impression. Somewhere during this time the Israelis also completed their Great Wall of Israel. I think the wall should be built right on the border and keep the 2 peoples separate. I believe in a 2-state solution as well. However, unfortunately the wall does not sit on the border, it mostly meanders in the occupied Palestinian territory in such a manner as to prevent the Palestinians from travelling even within their own land. The Israelis have even built roads in oPt that are roads for Israelis only.

and I do not presume that the Palestinians are necessarilly behind all of these suicide bombings. The Israelis are quite capable of creating them so that the Palestinians can be blamed. They've done it before - Lavon Affair, Entebbe hijacking.
85

,

16/01/2008 23:50:05
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86

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 16/01/2008 23:50:10
thewitness,

1) The Khazar theory for the origin of most Ashkenazi Jews has been thoroughly debunked on many grounds, and is not taken seriously anymore. The truth is that most Ashkenazi, Sefardi and Mizrachi Jews have a common origin in Israel.

2) The names Kagen and Kagan are Russian variations of the Hebrew name Kohen/Cohen/Kahn/etc., which means "priest". The Russian language lacks the "H" sound, so it is often rendered as a "G" instead. Likewise, the name Horowitz/Hurwitz/Hurevitz/etc. becomes Gorowitz/Gurwitz/Gurevitz/etc. in Russia.

"Kohen" (i.e., priest) is an ancient Hebrew word, going back long before the conversion to Judaism of Khazar nobility around the 8th Century.

The word you are thinking of -- khan -- means king, emperor, ruler, military leader, etc. in various Altaic (Turkic & Mongolian) languages, including the Khazar language.

I've seen some speculation about a possible very ancient connection between the Hebrew "kohen" and the Altaic "khan" but that is all it is -- speculation.
87

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 16/01/2008 23:54:53
thewitness,

Help me to understand. You seem to be saying that Jesus's god was someone named Lucifer.
88

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 17/01/2008 00:37:33
SMG in 88: you are not as stupid as you pretend. but let me give you some help from scripture. The story-line is that there was a rebellion among the jews against god.

"Jeremiah 11:9 And the LORD said unto me, A conspiracy is found among the men of Judah, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Jeremiah 11:10 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers."

Jeremiah is scripture that is jewish in origin, written several centuries before jesus. Note how the jewish prophet did say that the jews were rebelling against god and that the covenant was broken by the jews.

and here is christian scripture, jesus' favorite disciple named John had a vision where jesus came to him and said the following.

"Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan."

So what TheWitness was saying that some people believe the jews serve satan is something that does have backing in both jewish & christian scripture. Some believe that an elite group of rabbis have dedicated themselves secretly to satan. and to be honest some believe that the same conspiracy exists among portions of the christians.

For further study here is a web site put up by a non-practicing Canadian jew named Henry Makow. He monitors these ideas.

http://savethemales.ca/

and here is a site put up by Brother Nathaniel, an orthodox jew who converted to christ.

http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=110


89

thewitness,

17/01/2008 00:44:51
#88
I'm not saying anything. The quote is clear from Mr Rosenthal (no longer with us, fell out an aeroplane.)

"We are god's chosen people . . . Most Jews do not like to admit it, but our god is Lucifer — so I wasn't lying — and we are his chosen people. Lucifer is very much alive."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer
90

thewitness,

17/01/2008 00:52:45
#89 Wally
"Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matt 7:16 )
Thanks, you are a great American.