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Georgia operation is called to a halt by Russian president



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Published Date: 12 August 2008
RUSSIAN President Dmitry Medvedev today ordered a halt to military operations in Georgia after five days of fighting and just before French President Nicolas Sarkozy was to hold peace talks in Moscow.
A Kremlin spokesman confirmed reports that Medvedev had issued instructions to the Defence Ministry to "stop the operation to force the Georgian authorities to peace". The news came just before Sarkozy was due to meet Medvedev at the Kremlin to discuss an international peace plan to halt the fighting, which has rattled world oil markets and unnerved the West.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said earlier Moscow could not agree to the plan if it included Georgian troops in a future peacekeeping force because they had attacked Russian colleagues during Tbilisi's push to recapture breakaway South Ossetia.

"We can hardly agree with this because it would assume the presence of people described as Georgian peacekeepers," he said. "They can no longer remain. They brought shame upon themselves as peacekeepers. They committed crimes."

In Georgia, Russian warplanes reportedly bombed the town of Gori today, killing at least five people. There were isolated skirmishes along the front line but no major offensives by either side overnight.

Close US ally Georgia entered a conflict with Russia last week after launching an offensive to retake the pro-Russian region of South Ossetia, which broke away from Georgian rule in 1992. Moscow responded with a huge counter-offensive.

Separatists in the Black Sea region of Abkhazia, west of the main war theatre, launched a major push early today to drive Georgian forces out of the Kodori Gorge – the only area of the province under Georgian control.

"The operation to liberate Kodori Gorge has started," Abkhazia's self-styled foreign minister Sergei Shamba said. "Our troops are making advances. We are hoping for success."

Abkhazia insisted Russian troops were not involved.

Moscow's troops appeared to have largely stayed within the two separatist areas of South Ossetia and Abkhazia overnight, calming fears they might push deep into Georgia and threaten President Mikheil Saakashvili's government.

The full article contains 348 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 12 August 2008 10:35 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Georgia
 
1

hibbyspurs,

12/08/2008 10:52:52
Good news on the face of it.

Hope that its true & that a lasting peace deal can be achieved.

A harsh lesson perhaps for many that perhaps expect the US & NATO to come running to all & sundrys "assistance"? Was the NATO alliance ever likely to mobilise forces to assist a country whose application to join NATO was rejected this year? I doubt it.

Georgia should never have tried to assert force over South Ossetia & should never have attacked Russian troops. Had that been British troops I would have expected mobilisation of the British army to restore order.

Russia were very heavy handed and it seems they were making the point (especially to NATO) that they will not be shoved around in their own back yard by anyone anymore & they will maintain order in this region not NATO, China or anyone else who fancies a "pop".

The Georgian president should stand down after his foolish actions last week have caused great suffering to his people and caused a major international incident.
2

Neil,

Glasgow 12/08/2008 10:53:06
So not only was NATO useless it was unnecessary.

Doubtless we will now see a retraction from those armchair anti-Russians who explained that the whole purpose of the war was not to stop the genocide but to annex Georgia so that Russia will have a "warm water port" on the Black Sea.
3

hibbyspurs,

12/08/2008 11:13:51
#2

I wouldnt say NATO is useless as it really would be an awesome fighting machine if they could get all the parts going in the same direction at the same time.... Then again that'll never happen so maybe your right after all........

NATO was never going to intervene as the major players (UK, US, France & Germany) have better things to worry about than Georgia, for the first two econimic difficulties at home and ongoing bloddy conflicts in the Middle East would prevent intervention being a reality. The French & Germans have other difficulties of their own and Germany especially dont want to be antoginising a country whose a little too close for comfort...

Some have talked that a swift reponse from NATO would have "called Putin's bluff" and ended the conflict swiftly. Maybe but then again maybe not, perhaps the Russian's were ready for a "dash" in Georgia to see who really is the tough guy these days, probably not of course and these anyalsts are most likely correct but a NATO intervention would have "raised the stakes" to a global level and we could well have ended up tettering on the brink of a major European ground war which could have spiralled out of control until....... Well we dont want to think about that do we?

The people in power may seem idiots to us mere mortals but even they know when a risk might be a "risk too far" and neither the US or Russia have any real desire for a conflict with each other and this is why there was very little chance of anyone being Georgia's "white knight".....
4

Mashimaro,

China 12/08/2008 11:13:56
#2 Not to mention some nefarious link to the Winter Olympics in Sochi
5

,

12/08/2008 12:39:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000miles from Earth's core 12/08/2008 12:43:51
For those people who are genuinely interested/worried about what really is going on .This is quite a good article to read.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article5834.html

The Scotsman ,Herald, BBC seem to be spewing the old "war propaganda" rather than giving useful informative information.
Do NOT believe the WAR PROPAGANDA that is coming from BOTH sides , there is a lot more going on here than meets the eye and it will only lead to a large pile of dead and mutilated people (,passport or racial origin irrelevant)
#5
"I hope that the peoples of South Ossetia AND Abkhazia get the opportunity to determine THEIR future for themselves.
Self-determination is a fundamental human right whether it be South Ossieta, Abkhazia, Tibet or Scotland."

How very very true , and I hope so myself. Considering
"In a November 2006 referendum, 99 percent of South Ossetians voted for independence from Georgia "
7

Regal Bankie,

Clydebank 12/08/2008 12:57:06
If it's good enough for Kosovo...
8

John Lawson,

Spain 12/08/2008 13:26:03
LESSONS LEARNED FROM GEORGIA

The war between Georgia and Russia appears to be drawing to a close. There were Russian air attacks on Georgia on Sunday and some fighting in South Ossetia, and the Russians sank a Georgian missile boat. However, as the day ended the Russians declared themselves ready to make peace with Georgia, and U.N. officials said the Georgians were ready to complete the withdrawal of their forces from South Ossetia.

At this point, the Russians have achieved what they wanted to achieve, quite apart from assuring South Ossetia's autonomy. First, they have driven home the fact that in the end, they are the dominant power not only in the Caucasus but also around their entire periphery. Alliance with the United States or training with foreign advisers ultimately means little; it is not even clear what the United States or NATO would have been able to do if Georgia had been a member of the alliance. That lesson is not for the benefit of Georgia, but for Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Azerbaijan, and even Poland and the Czech Republic. The Russians have made it clear that, at least at this moment in history, they can operate on their periphery effectively and therefore their neighbours should not be indifferent to Russian wishes.

The second lesson was for the Americans and Europeans to consider. The Russians had asked that Kosovo not be granted independence. The Russians were prepared to accept autonomy but they did not want the map of Europe to be redrawn; they made it clear that once that starts, not only will it not end, but the Russians would feel free to redraw the map themselves. The Americans and Europeans went forward making the assumption that the Russians would have no choice but to live with that decision. The Russian response to the Georgian attack on South Ossetia drives home the point that the Russians are again a force to be reckoned with.
9

John Lawson,

12/08/2008 13:27:01
LESSONS LEARNED FROM GEORGIA -continued

There has been sharp rhetoric from American and European officials, but that rhetoric cannot be matched with military action. The Europeans are too militarily weak to have any options, and the Americans have quite enough on their plates without getting involved in a war in Georgia. In some ways, the rhetoric makes the Russians look even stronger than they actually are. The intensity of the rhetoric contrasted with the paucity of action is striking.

The Americans in particular have another problem. Iran is infinitely more important to them than Georgia is, and they need Russian help in Iran. Specifically, they need the Russians not to sell the Iranians weapons. In particular, they do not want the Russian S-300 surface-to-air missiles delivered to the Iranians. In addition, they want the Russians to join in possible sanctions against Iran. Russia has a number of ways to thwart U.S. policy not only in Iran, but also in Afghanistan and Syria. These are areas of fundamental concern to the United States, and confronting the Russians on Georgia is a risky business. The Russians can counter in ways that are extremely painful to the United States.

There is talk that the Russians might want a new government in Georgia. That is probably so, but the Russians have already achieved their most important goals. They have made it clear to their neighbours that a relationship with the West does not provide security if Russia's interests are threatened. They have made it clear to the West that ignoring Russian wishes carries a price. Finally, they have made it clear to everyone that the Russian military, which was in catastrophic shape five years ago, is sufficiently healed to carry out a complex combined-arms operation including land, air and naval components. Granted it was against a small country, but there were many ways in which the operation could have been bungled. It was not. Russia is not a superpower, but it is certainly
10

John Lawson,

Spain 12/08/2008 13:28:04
LESSONS LEARNED FROM GEORGIA -continued

no longer a military cripple. Delivering that message, in the end, might have been the most important to Russia.
11

JoeMcT,

BlairsFantasyIsland 12/08/2008 14:04:52
It's utterly pathetic and utterly predictable to see Ayatollah Bush line up to criticise the Russians.

The Russians had more reason to invade Georgia than the US ever did to invade Iraq.
12

Yeah1,

12/08/2008 16:11:43
#12

"The Russians had more reason to invade Georgia than the US ever did to invade Iraq."

Thats a rather foolish statement.

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the Iraq invasion, it was nontheless a country run by an unelected dictator, who had in the past invaded a neigbouring country,attempted to bomb Israel and wiped out thousands of kurds.

Georgia on the other hand is a democracy, led by an elected leader.
13

Mashimaro,

12/08/2008 16:23:49
#13 It always amazes me how zealously the west defends its right to slaughter in the name of democracy.

#5 "Self-determination is a fundamental human right whether it be South Ossieta, Abkhazia, Tibet or Scotland."

No it's flipping not. And if it is written in some western book somewhere it should be understood that the west doesn't get to be the dictator to the rest of the world. Strong countries will do what is necessary to protect the majority of their people. That is just fact, and the sooner you understand it, the faster we will have peace.
14

Neil,

Glasgow 12/08/2008 16:25:05
Yeah a countries electoral system is not a lawful reason for invading it (otherwise all of Europe would gang up on us with a system that lets Labour in on the vote of 20% of the electorate).

Georgia was engaged in the same sort of genocide we assisted in in Croatia. Genocide is a lawful reason for intervention.

We invaded Iraq on the basis of their WMDs ready for use against us in 45 minutes. That was, literally, a non-existent reason for invasion.

In any case western governments which have been involved in kidnapping Serb teenagers to dissect them, while alive, & send their organs to our hospitals are unfit to stand in judgement.

You asserted a few days ago that that could not possibly have happened because our media are at least honest enough to have put it on the front pages of every paper.

http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/ips040108.htm

Do you still say so?
15

Piotr,

Warsaw 12/08/2008 16:41:17
Mr. Medvedev called the operation to a halt and then Russian planes bombed Georgian countries. Soviet tricks never die.
16

Pilrig.,

Livingston 12/08/2008 16:59:20
5 - you didn't add Chechnya to your list.
17

Pilrig.,

Livingston 12/08/2008 17:05:51
15 - Slobadan Milosvec, another nephew of Uncle Joe.

By Christ, these threids have brought oot the fans of such wasters of life and limb like Milosovec, Mao, Putin, Dubya and others of their ilk.
18

Piotr,

Warsaw 12/08/2008 17:06:54
#7 I wonder if you you made the following quote seriously: "In a November 2006 referendum, 99 percent of South Ossetians voted for independence from Georgia."

The above means that a)most of Georgians were expelled from South Ossetia; b) those who still live there were terrorized c)the referendum was most probably rigged.

In such circumstances (where ethnic groups are melting) you cannot honestly achieve the 99% result. As a Polish citizen (interested in our history) I can refer to some historical data that can be relevant. We had a referendum in 1920 (or so) allowing people to opt for Poland or Germany. The results were 60-40 for Germany. However, we have also rich experience related to 99% results. This is precisely the percentage achieved by the communist party in 1970-ties, when nobody treated the elections seriously. Therefore, if we hear about 99% we understand somebody is kidding.

Best regards,
Piotr
19

Pilrig.,

Livingston 12/08/2008 17:10:43
21 - when I here of a 99% vote in a referendum, it puts me in mind of such democrats like the late Enver Hoxha and his beloved comrade Kim il Sung
20

Neil,

Glasgow 12/08/2008 17:38:32
There were 2 elections in the rose revolution. In the first the pesent incumbents norrowly lost & western observers kicked up a fuss & said it wasn't a true election. In the second, after NATO had threatened & bribed they got something in the 90s (granted it was slightly short of 99%).

Western observers said that that looked like a credible result to them. Pilrig, being to some extent honest, will be able to show that he spoke out at the time about such a il Sing like result. Considering what he said about Milosevice he will also, if not a lying corrupt racist NuLabour Nazi, be able to provide evidence against Milosevic - since the NATO funded "court" were unable to find any they will be grateful to him. Since the NATO funded "court" could find none they will be ever so grateful.
21

Vasya,

12/08/2008 18:12:00
Piort, You know what is the best in the world? I can tell you - it is to look at traditional polish zoological rusophob. Was ever point in history at all when Russia was right except the beggining of 17 century when let's say there was no Russia???

"The above means that a)most of Georgians were expelled from South Ossetia; b) those who still live there were terrorized c)the referendum was most probably rigged". Zoological rusophobs do not think... they watch CNN and BBC. Piotr, 99% was from those who voted. Georgians living in the South Osetia did not take part in that refferendum - simple like this. They just waited when their brothers from Georgia will come to kill osetians. They were right in their expectations. It happenned on the 7th of August and georgians anklaves in South Osetia were the bases for georgian invasion and from where they bombed and sheled osetians. There is some resistance there even till now. After the defeat this georgains population left the republic but alive... spitting farewell on the corps of their osetains neighbors. Something tells me they will never come back. The same happenned 15 ago in Abkhasia when in absolutely similar situation after the bulky georgian attack all georgians had to leave their houses. Who won from this???? So this is double genocide. Nevetheless georgians keep trying.
In 1992 in Georgia president was right wing nationalist Gamsahurdia. People did not forgive him for Abkhazia and Osetia and put Shevarnadze. But is was for short period. Shevarnadze was too soft for georgian nationalists plus he had moderate relationship with Russia - it was bad sign for US. So together they put in chair another right-wing nationalist - Saakashvili. Even today during the NATO-Georgia meeting (meeting NATO-Russia, Russia asked about, was postponed) this bloody maniac asked NATO to give him more modern weapon. Guess for what???
Georgia had independence for 21 years including short perion in 1920s. In that period of 21 years Georgi
22

Vasya,

12/08/2008 18:12:46
that period of 21 years Georgia started 7 (SEVEN!!!) wars with neighbors.
23

Maksim,

12/08/2008 18:35:58
17 Where / in which (TRUSTED / REPUTABLE) source did you get it?
24

Piotr,

12/08/2008 19:16:19
#24

Vasya,

Fortunately, I do not watch television and thus your argument about BBC and CNN fails. I prefer reading books and newspapers.

Besides, I have some personal experience about Russian political influence. That experience is terrible. If you think that it was BBC or CNN that made up a story about Russians imposing communist governments in Poland and other European countries (and stupid people believed in that story) you are wrong. No Pole needs BBC or CNN to know that whenever Russians put their hands politically, the results are tragic.

Russian official propaganda needs special attention. If anybody stands in Russians' way, they quickly denounce him as a criminal, rascal, etc. That was precisely the propaganda employed by Russians when they captured Poland in 1944/45. Polish national heroes (who set up the uprising against Hitler) were sentenced in Moscow for being Nazi criminals! I am not sure whether CNN says much on that. But since Mr. KGB Putin still longs for that period and, in particular, praises geopolitical achievements of the Soviet Union, it is clear how to treat official Russian statements. Just put "NOT" before nearly each sentence and you arrive at the truth. It is not CNN, it is the experience. And the experience tells me that I should not believe in your stories about Mr. Saakashvili. By now the proofs confirming Georgian bombings in Ossetia are very weak.

In turn nobody can deny that Russians bombed Georgian towns. Tell me: was it another story made up by CNN?BBC/whoever?
25

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 12/08/2008 19:21:56
There is one person capable of being an honest broker in dealing with the conflict between Georgia and the South Ossetians and that is Angus Robertson, the SNP MP for Moray. Back in 2003 he invited the disputative parties from Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan to Craigellachie on the Spey and with gentle and unthreatening diplomacy he helped to get them to resolve there differences. That peace has remained after five years.

The great powers are incapable of understanding the feelings of small countries and 'separatist' movements. Alex Salmond has already spoken with the Russian Ambassador and asked that his concerns be passed to the Russian Government.

Angus Robertson has already proved his worth in dealing with problems in the Caucusus and has retained goodwill in the region. The South Ossetians have not had dealings with Angus Robertson, but as a representative of an independence movement party which is now the government of Scotland (something not the case back in 2003, I am sure they will trust his impartiality.

The present dispute is tragic and the parties have become entrenched. A war of words between superpowers can only add to the difficulties. A fresh approach is needed where only someone with no axe to grind can suggest a way forward. I believe Angus Robertson is that person.
26

Gere,

Scotland 12/08/2008 19:25:28
I see a greater strategy at play here! America, perhaps at the behest of their Israeli masters wanted to test Russia's ability to respond militarily to a threat or invasion.

If Russia had proved weak or ineffectual then America and their Israeli masters would have considered a military adventure to annex Russia's oil fields.

Remember America, acting under on the instruction of Israel not only did not respect the territorial integrity of Iraq but on the strength of a lie invaded and occupied the country on behalf of Israel!

Israel has sold an enormous amount of arms to Georgia and has many Israeli "Military Advisors" in Georgia.

It begins to add up!
27

Maksim,

12/08/2008 20:07:59
“By now the proofs confirming Georgian bombings in Ossetia are very weak.”

“In turn nobody can deny that Russians bombed Georgian towns.”


This only means that you know what you’d like to know but it does not mean that the truth can not be opposite. Probably your biased anti-Russian attitude stems from you historical insecurities and the wish to be liked by your newly found benefactor that lives across the pond. But following somewhat similar logic should we be negative in attitude to Poles and Poland today based on our bad experience in the 1920-ies or knowing that Dzerzhinsky who was from there and who was the KGB founder killed millions? I’d prefer to base my judgements on different grounds.
28

George.,

12/08/2008 20:08:08
29 We have a winner
29

Vasya,

12/08/2008 20:13:29
Bravo Piotr...
My question in #24 "Was ever point in history at all when Russia was right except the beggining of 17 century when let's say there was no Russia???" got answer "whenever Russians put their hands politically, the results are tragic". Thank you Piotr! I believed in you and I was right. Exactly what I expected.
And now let's translate this "That was precisely the propaganda employed by Russians when they captured Poland in 1944/45. Polish national heroes (who set up the uprising against Hitler) were sentenced in Moscow for being Nazi criminals!" to adequate language.
IMHO in 1944/45 Poland was occupied by Nazies and about 6 miilions polish jews were just extermnated. But who really cares about jews in Poland. Just before WWII great friend of polish people Adolf Hitler allowed to take its part from Czehoslovakia when he took and Great Poland did not refuse. Poland even asked in Ligue Nation to give them colonies because they are so great that they need colonies by definition as any great power. In 1939 Hiler explained them that they are a bit wrong about themselves and occupied Poland in 2 weeks. Seeing how fast this great state and its great army falling and wanting to have Hitler as far as possible from traditional russian land Stalin also occupied the east of Poland otherwise in a week Hitler was there. Enemies are always around, thought Great polish govenment and moved to Britain. Poland has had never friends on its borders but does not want to understand that problem is in them so best polish "friends" are always somewhere overseas. Now it is even over ocean, namely - US. In 1944 when russian army defeated Hitler in Russia and moved to finish him in Berlin (I should say the shortest way goes via Poland) the Great polish government in Britain after long discussion and having a lot of promises from Chirchil decided to play a game with Stalin to show him that Poland is really great (in polish it sounds "Sche Polska ne sginela" (Poland still exists)
30

Vasya,

12/08/2008 20:15:01
Really this "Polska ne sginela" can be said before drink even on 4 years old girl birthday and everybody drinks that indeed exist) and can liberate itself. When russian troops were just next to Warsaw the great national uprising against Nazis started. They really wanted to show Stalin that they are great. Stalin decided to watch the show carefully. Russian troops stood just several kilometers from Warsaw and watched te show. Polish nationalis were bad actors as well asChirchil bad promises keeper Britain gave only moral support (but do not forget dear reader that bad guys in this story not germans or british - polish love them, bad guys are always russians, by definition). So even demoralized by defeat after defeat from Russian army Nazies in their turn defeated this uprise very fast just in front of russian army. When Stalin realised that show is over he took Warsaw from Nazies in a week. Stalin did not like when people lied to him (actualy who likes?). They promised a great show but it was complete fiasco. So just to make pure lessons that advises from West against Russia are deadfull when Russians are next to you, he made dead some of the worst actors of that farce. Michail Saakashvili did not study well history of his compatriots and attacked Tshinvali the rest you know.
31

ICTChris,

Edinburgh 12/08/2008 20:23:57
It seems that the Russians have pulled back from an operation to smash the entire Georgian state for the meantime. Georgia appear to have taken a big gamble and been repaid with a defeat but the Georgian government was put in a difficult position - it was repeatedly targetted by the Russian backed Ossetian sepratists in recent weeks. Any soverign state couldn't accept attacks such as those on their troops (and citizens).

From Russia's perspective they will see themselves as being the big winners from this confrontation. Militarily they were always going to defeat a force many times smaller than them. Although Georgia's armed forces have benefitted from training by the US and re-organisation away from the outdated Soviet models they could never face such overwhelming firepower and, in particular, airpower and win. The gamble of the attack on the Ossetian rebels was that they could win back territory without allowing Russia a comeback. That didn't happen and the Georgian's were forced to retreat to maintain enough forces to stand against a potential attack on Tblisi. Thankfully that hasn't come to pass.

Russia's client states in Abkhazia and South Ossetia will be emboldened. At the moment it appears that fighting in Abkhazia is ongoing with the last remaining Georgian stronghold in the region, the Kodori Valley, currently being fought over. A Russian/Abkhaz victory there would see the completion of the complete ethnic cleansing of Georgians from that region of their country begun in the previous conflict. Ethnic Georgians were a clear majority in Abkhazia in the late 1980s (and for all available census years before that) and the claims for legitimacy for that secessionist entity are based on the mass explusion of one ethnic group by another.

Russia could now extend diplomatic recognition to Abkhazia and South Ossetia. I don't think that would be the cataclymic event some predict: both regions are bankrolled by Moscow, defended by thousands of Russian troops (
32

mike - across the pond,

gere.... 12/08/2008 20:24:48
what have you been drinking pal?

"wanting to test russia's response to an invasion?"

it was GEORGIA that got invaded... and RUSSIA who did the invading

whatever it was that caused you to get THAT part backwards probably blotted out the FACT that Putin was merely backing up his threat a mere TWO MONTHS AGO that there would be military consequences if Georgia applied for admission to NATO...

did you FORGET that?

Georgia applied for entrance into NATO... and BAM Russia blows across the border into Georgia...
33

ICTChris,

12/08/2008 20:24:59
sorry, pasted from another site again.

now recognised by the Georgians as an occupying force) and given moral support by the Kremlin. No other states would offer diplomatic relations, except perhaps Russian satellite Belarus. Turkey extended diplomatic recognition to Northern Cyprus in 1983, this hasn't changed the situation there with regards to international views on the resolution of the conflict. The parallels with Kosovan recognition will be trotted out but these have no real legal or moral basis. Kosovo was a constituent member of the Yugoslav federation and thus had as much right to secede as Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia and Montenegro had to leave the Yugoslav union. Abkhazia and South Ossetia were not constituent republics of the Soviet Union so cannot be considered as the same as the secession of Georgia, the Baltic states, Ukraine etc. The fact is as well, as stated above, that the reason the population of both regions is so pro-sepratist is that ethnic populations opposed to seccession were expelled.

I think it's important that Georgia is helped to rebuild it's infrastructure and continue the process of reform. The West need to demonstrate that small countries who want to look towards the EU, NATO etc rather than their former imperial masters will be supported rather than abandoned. It will prove difficult diplomatically to do this while remaining cordial with Russia but I think that it is a balancing act that is the worth attempting, for the security and prosperity of Georgia and of other European nations.
34

Itchy,

12/08/2008 20:37:44
"14 Mashimaro,12/08/2008 16:23:49
#13 It always amazes me how zealously the west defends its right to slaughter in the name of democracy"

As opposed to communists who just love killing people.
35

Vasya,

12/08/2008 20:39:10
"Abkhazia and South Ossetia were not constituent republics of the Soviet Union so cannot be considered as the same as the secession of Georgia, the Baltic states, Ukraine etc. "

Here you are worng)) Abkazia an South Osetia were AUTONOMOUS republick if you you know what it means. After the USSR colapse they had all rights to say Georgia goodbye, and that they did but it was Georgia who did want them to go. Comsequenses you know...
36

ICTChris,

12/08/2008 20:52:16
South Ossetia was an autonomous oblast and Abkhazia was an autonomous republic of Georgia. Neither had the same legal status as the Baltic staes, Georgia, Ukraine etc. They have been offered almost complete autonomy by Georgia, within the Georgian state. Ironic really, considering that as independent states they are effectively Russian satellites.
37

Mashimaro,

China 12/08/2008 21:04:25
#16 A little lesson in FACT for you, mutton head. No other country in the world has lifted so many people out of poverty so fast as China. The only reason it was able to do this was because the government RUNS things, not big business organised crime as happens in the west.
Your democracy is a joke, dude. You have no say in anything to do with your country. It all depends on who has the money and who they can buy off. Wake up.
Watch the little farce of democracy going on in the US right now...different sides of the same coin. Intersting also to note the money, time and effort spent on such a purely useless exercise.
38

Mashimaro,

China 12/08/2008 21:06:19
#35 did you forget that Georgia invaded Ossetia and slaughtered a few thousand people?
39

Vasya,

12/08/2008 21:33:27
?39 Instead swallowing someone else propaganda learn Russia and read. Below you can find the refference on the USSR Law from the 3rd of April 1990 "About the order of exits from the USSR". In article 3 oth tha law concerning ALL autonomous territories you will find that you are wrong. So do not read too many western propaganda and read original things then they people will not call you LIER.

http://abkhazia.narod.ru/SH/chap-45.html
40

Piotr,

12/08/2008 22:58:35
Vasya,

Your history is based entirely on the good old Soviet school (sorry pal). I'm not going to correct each of your fallacies related to ancient times, because nobody cares except us. It's sufficient to reiterate your own words of satisfaction about Stalin's policies related to the 1944 Warsaw Uprising against Nazi Germany: "Stalin decided to watch the show carefully. Russian troops stood just several kilometers from Warsaw and watched the show." You have forgot to mention that "the show" lasted 2 months and resulted in total destruction of the city and 200,000 dead people. Thus, if your idol (Stalin) "watched the show carefully", it proves that he was a sadistic voyeur. It's quite interesting how could you provoke international enthusiasm towards that kind of debauchery. Furthermore, that example hardly shows that you may expect anything good from Russia (it seems to be your idee fixe?). I would like to stress again that Stalin not only "watched the show carefully", but then set up another show, which happened to be the trial of the Polish uprisers.

Then you say that Abkhazia and South Ossetia were AUTONOMOUS republics and had all rights to say Georgia goodbye. Therefore, they had the same status as for example Chechnya. If you call for consequence, you should then defend the right of Chechnya to go from Russia. Unfortunately, Mr. KGB Putin (as well as Mr. Eltsin) disliked the idea. Could you explain this? Was it again the Stalinist passion for "shows" including tens of thousands killed civilians...?
41

James Donald,

Newbridge 13/08/2008 09:26:23
#44 Piotr - Evidently Vasya is a fan of "kindly" Uncle Joe, even when it is evident that his "sadistic voyeurism" was a cynical ploy to allow the Germans to crush the Home Army in Warsaw to save him the trouble.
There were Russians who actually actively participated in the crushing of the Warsaw Rising, in the ranks of the notorious Kaminski Brigade. These were ex-Soviet POWs who were so brutal that they eventually had to be restrained by the SS (an organisation not noted for its good treatment of the Poles). An unsavoury bunch these Russians, perhaps Vasya is a fan of the "Kamintski" too?

 

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