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Channel 4 slated over broadcast by Iranian leader

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Published Date: 26 December 2008
CHANNEL 4's decision to broadcast an alternative Christmas message by Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, was condemned by the government yesterday.
The Foreign Office said the move would cause international offence. A spokeswoman said: "President Ahmadinejad has, during his time in office, made a series of appalling antisemitic statements.

"The British media are rightly free to make their
own editorial choices, but this invitation will cause offence and bemusement not just at home but amongst friendly countries abroad."

Louise Ellman, a Liverpool MP and chairwoman of the Labour Jewish Movement, also criticised the broadcaster. She said: "I condemn Channel 4's decision to give an unchallenged platform to a dangerous fanatic who denies the Holocaust while preparing for another and claims homosexuality does not exist while his regime hangs gay young men from cranes in the street.

"Who will deliver next year's alternative Christmas message? Will it be David Irving or Robert Mugabe?"

In the message screened last night, Mr Ahmadinejad called for a peaceful new year and for greater spirituality among governments and society.

Speaking in Farsi, with English subtitles, he said: "Jesus, the Son of Mary, is the standard bearer of justice, of love for our fellow human beings, of the fight against tyranny, discrimination and injustice.

"If Christ were on earth today, undoubtedly He would stand with the people in opposition to bullying, ill-tempered and expansionist powers."

Channel 4 has a history of choosing unusual icons to deliver its Christmas messages, which it began broadcasting in 1993. They have included Marge Simpson, Ali G, Jamie Oliver and a couple who appeared on its reality TV show Wife Swap.

Ron Prosor, Israel's ambassador to Britain, branded this year's choice a "sick and twisted irony".

He said: "In Iran, converts to Christianity face the death penalty. It is perverse that this despot is allowed to speculate on the views of Jesus, while his government leads Christ's followers to the gallows."

Rabbi Aaron Goldstein, of the group Liberal Judaism, said: "I have no trouble with Channel 4 dealing with difficult issues. But doing a sort of lucky dip to pick a controversial character, then allowing him to make a lovey-dovey speech, that this character is being allowed to dress himself up as a kind of Father Christmas, that is problematic."

Dorothy Byrne, Channel 4's head of news and current affairs defended its move and said: "As leader of one of the most powerful states in the Middle East, President Ahmadinejad's views are enormously influential. As we approach a critical time in international relations, we are offering our viewers an insight into an alternative world view."

Meanwhile, war and the economic crisis dominated other festive messages from spiritual leaders and the Queen, whose address highlighted the insecurity people felt as a result of the downturn. It would be a "sombre occasion" for many, she said.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 25 December 2008 6:38 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 26/12/2008 00:01:31
Let him have his say, his message is one of peace and remember, freedom of speech eh ! Or has the British government conveniently overlooked the freedom of speech and expression bit?
I noticed he did stop short of saying that Jesus is the son of God though, hmmmm !
2

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 26/12/2008 01:34:58
#2 Big Jock McDoc,
Nah, just more religious ramblings, no threats of convert or else, you seem a bit paranoid, could it be that you're not so big?
3

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 26/12/2008 01:37:17
#3 Big Jock McDoc,
I speak highly about China because I think highly of China, can't speak for Dragonhead, you'll have to ask him yourself.
4

Guga II,

Rockall 26/12/2008 02:12:00
The English government obviously do not believe in freedom of speech. Then again, we already know that; after all they had that pensioner arrested under their terrorism act for heckling Jack Straw.

As for the Israelis, they don't believe in freedom as they have still got 11,000 Palestinians in gaol, without having been charged or having benefit of trial.

The Hootsmon don't believe in freedom of speech either, and they will probably delete this post because I have criticised the Israelis.
5

Teofilio Cubillas,

26/12/2008 02:14:22
"The Foreign Office said the move would cause international offence. A spokeswoman said: "President Ahmadinejad has, during his time in office, made a series of appalling antisemitic statements."

The Foreign Office is, however, quite happy to deal with Saudi Arabia, that veritable oasis of religious tolerance and shining beacon of equality in the Middle East. I don't have any problem with Channel Four broadcasting Ahmadinejad's speech. Jaw Jaw and all that.
6

Guga II,

Rockall 26/12/2008 02:22:58
We're not being allowed to comment on any of the other "International" stories either.
7

Teofilio Cubillas,

26/12/2008 02:22:58
Anyway, what does the FO mean by 'international offence?' In America? The country where anti-semites like like Billy Graham and Pat Buchanan are invited to breakfast by the President?
8

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 26/12/2008 02:53:26
#6 Guga II,
Hope you had a good Christmas buddy and Seasons Greetings to you and yours.
9

Mashimaro,

China 26/12/2008 03:43:02
This is not about freedom of speech. This is about putting western culture under attack and its own stupid bobble heads going along with it. When Iran allows the pope to give an address on its television during ramadam, then we can talk about "freedom of speech".
You people are stupid. There is no other explanation for it. Why would you entertain someone so obviously against you, your way of life and your fundamental beliefs, on the precise day when you should be celebrating all of those things. AND you dress it up as a CHRITSMAS message. That is just plain sick.
This man is free to talk on your telelvision any other time of the year. This argument is not about supressing his message. He can make the message on the 26th, and call it a message from the Muslim fundamentalist. Not on Christmas day and call it a Christmas message.
These are the people - these people who scream for freedom of speech and religious tolerance - who are destroying you and you cannot see it.
Listen to this man, listen well. For soon he and his kind will be your masters and you and your kind will be licking his boots. Your women will be in veils and your homosexuals will be stoned.
You idiots.
10

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 26/12/2008 04:52:16
NEVER thought I'd agree with Mashimaro but...

Honestly, I am horrified at Channel 4's desperate grasp for sensationalism. Giving a platform to this hideous despot has nothing to do with any need to know his views. There is no central hunger to hear any justification for his corrosive anti-semitic, homophobic & misogynistic world view. Basically, it has nothing to do with any valid 'alternative' to Christmas, its simply a vulgar attempt as attention grabbing. Don't they have any women, gay or lesbian, Christian employees? Well they do have those as viewers and from among that group I tell you that this was the WRONG decision. Wrong, hatful, irresponsible and insulting.
11

drunken proffet,

Tassy 26/12/2008 06:32:13
#1 Well they look on Jesus as one of the prophets and great teachers. I have been known to agree with that. Some of the more fanatic followers of Islam believe that we should convert. No way, I have enough difficulty trying to stay a Protestant.
12

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 26/12/2008 06:57:27
I have no problem with listening to the views of those who do not accept the doctrines of standard Western orthodoxy.

I do however, suspect the values of those who would deny the dissenters their say.

Whatever moral, political or spiritual values I may hold dear, they do not preclude the possibility that there is a valid alternative position, genuinely held and reasonably articulated by others of a different persuasion.

Hence, I look forward to the day when the likes of Robert Mugabe, David Irving or the Devil himself are given air time, and are subject to rigorous cross examination leading them to being called to account for their views and their actions.

Those of us of independent minds have nothing to fear, other than fear itself.
13

Mashimaro,

China 26/12/2008 07:12:46
#14 Idiot. Those of you with independent minds should go live in places like Iran and see how long your minds remain thus. Once again, this is not about "freedom of speech" this is about eating at the roots of your alleged society for nothing more than profit. Wait bully... wait. We'll hear how much you think this is a good idea when the UK introduces Sharia law.
14

James Donald,

Newbridge 26/12/2008 07:15:15
Can't really expect those who live in a one-party state with a state-controlled media to understand the concept of "freedom of speech" but I have no problem with Ahmadinejad being allowed to broadcast on Channel 4. I and everyone else in the UK (including the "usual suspects" with their wails of outrage)has the freedom to use the remote controll to change channels if the mere prospect of listening to Ahmadinejad causes offense.
"Louise Ellman, a Liverpool MP and chairwoman of the Labour Jewish Movement, also criticised the broadcaster" - What the article fails to mention is that Ellman is also a member of Labour Friends of Israel, a Parliament-based lobby group promoting support within the British Labour Party for a strong bilateral relationship between Britain and Israel. A full list of members of this lobby group is given here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Friends_of_Israel
There are similar (but much smaller groups in the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties). Just in case there were any posters who harbour lingering beliefs that MPs are elected to represent their constituants.
15

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 26/12/2008 07:45:46
#15

Thank you for that considered response.

I am aware to you appear to live in an environment where dissent is seen as being a matter for the military to deal with.

We had that almost 100 years ago when the ruling power thought it necessary to send tanks into George Square in Glasgow to dampen down talk of sedition, it appears that your rulers have been catching up, albeit belatedly.

As far as my “alleged society” is concerned, it does, whatever other shortcomings it may have, allow me to express views contrary to those of the ruling party.

How is Tibet getting on by the way?
16

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 26/12/2008 08:09:49
or maybe you are not allowed to speak about that?
17

Buck Rogers,

in the 25th Century 26/12/2008 08:21:11
One of the things that is SUPPOSED to make us different from other children of Abraham is that we are not taught to hate.

Pity no one has taught the Foreign Office, Louise Ellman or Ron Prosor this. They represent everything that is wrong with the world today. Why is everyone so intolerant? Why are those in roles of authority scared to let the masses think for themselves?

Everyone knows that this guy is part of the problem in the middle east. We are subject to a barrage of propoganda and misinformation to make us fear and hate ordinary Iranians. Why do people think that one Christmas message from this looney is going to undermine the huge effort put into creating fear amongst us?

Let the guy have his say and show him that we are different from him and his Masters in Tehran as we happily give him freedom of speech.

I just finished watching a CNN report on Putin's Russia and how he terrorised the media (which was free under Yeltsin) so that they stopped reporting about the war and also corruption in the Kremlin. The stations that did not comply were raided and shut down. Sounds like lots of the commentators on this board would be happier living in Russia and the little bubble that Putin has created.

Personally, every time I see the Pope on Channel 4 news it offends my sense of decency and ethics. But I don't lobby for him to be removed. If we decided to deny airspace to anyone that offends the values held by ordinary decent human beings then just about every politician, businessman, religious leader and media mogul would be banned from TV. And who in their right mind would want to live in a world that was wall-to-wall Emerdale Farm?
18

Buck Rogers,

in the 25th Century 26/12/2008 08:34:24
Why not try to find some love for your fellow man at this time of year? Even if he does not want it from you?

Here is a great message from one of the US greats. Sadly, many in his own country detest him and his message. What a sad, strange little world some of us live in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU278yFdvgQ

If the message does not do anything for you, then perhaps you should consider applying for the job as Mugabe's press spokesman.

19

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

26/12/2008 08:34:51
ahmadiniejad's message is a good thing as far as that it has annoyed lots of people who deserve to be annoyed.
20

Buck Rogers,

in the 25th Century 26/12/2008 08:39:44
And whilst your at it, here is another clip that should make you think about where the intolerance and hate in your heart comes from and what it is doing to your life!

Let's try to get the focus of our concerns right!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjT6B6IFUU8

21

Buck Rogers,

in the 25th Century 26/12/2008 08:53:35
#21 Good point Newon!

By the way, did you really ivent gravity or did you in fact develop and write a book outlining your theories that remains the most influential book in the history of science?

Co-incidentally, Newton dedicated more of his life to religious writings than he did to science. None of us know anything about his works on religion, which goes to show how relevant religion is to the development of our race!
22

catgut,

pomona 26/12/2008 08:54:25
as a non believer iwelcome the chance to hear what those on the other side of the war on 'terror' think.

just sounded like a load of the same religious junk that the west spout.
poor old gays also got it from the pope.
did not listen to the queens ramble as only listen to those who have been elected ,by somebody, and wrote their own suff.
23

radge dug,

26/12/2008 09:26:21
Just another religious bigot. LIke the pope. In Iran, they still execute gays. Maybe yon pope is a bit jealous that he doesn't have the power of popes past?

End religion.
24

tommy,

belfast uk 26/12/2008 10:24:30
Mashimaro..
Quote..."You people are stupid. There is no other explanation for it. Why would you entertain someone so obviously against you, your way of life and your fundamental beliefs, on the precise day when you should be celebrating all of those things. AND you dress it up as a CHRITSMAS message.
That is just plain sick"...Unquote



Agreed -- Stupid in their ignorance
25

Mashimaro,

China 26/12/2008 10:28:49
#17 Oh, so original. Are you sure you are not Guga? How's Tibet? Tibet is doing just fine since the communists finally managed to get rid of the old feudal system. Now the people live almost twice as long as they used to, they don't die of starvation, their children go to school and they have medical care. Their children are not stolen away to serve as sex slaves for warped old men, or skinned to make works of art. Their temples and priests are kept in good order by government salaries instead of having to use strong arm methods to take the peasants' last mouthfuls of food. In short - Tibet is a whole lot better than it was before.
Tanks... military... that was 20 years ago. Wake up and stop showing your utter ignorance of modern China.
26

Mashimaro,

China 26/12/2008 10:35:42
#19 people don't have to be taught to hate... it comes naturally.
You British think that the world is all "jolly decent" and that if you are "jolly decent" then everyone else will just be "jolly decent" straight back and the whole world will be a "jolly decent" place.
WAKE UP!
There are many people out there who are not decent. Who will invade your land and rape your women and force your children into slavery.
They're already living off your welfare.
When your putrid attempt at civilisation finally slides under the tidal wave of third world fundamentalism you will eat the bitter fruit of your stupidity.
Meh... what do I care. Go . . . lick the boots that kick you so you'll never feel the lash.
27

pwd,

Borders 26/12/2008 10:54:27
I think the problem with people like Louise Ellman and Ron Prosor is that they are so used to the unquestioning subserviance of western media to the zionist case that they have come to see it almost as a right that no opposing case should be made. It's gratifying to see them get one on the nose and, much as I disagree with most of what Ahminajad stands for, Channel 4 is to be commended for broadcasting what he has to say.
28

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 26/12/2008 11:17:26
I see from the letters page that, now that the 'Hokey Cokey' row has backfired on the RCs the apologists have written in attempting to switch the blame to Rangers FC websites; a classic case of 'It wisnae me...a big boy did it and ran away'

We're not allowed to comment on it though...
29

Americanbob,

26/12/2008 11:21:57
Does nobody else see the intended satire in Ch4's broadcast.
"Lets have Ahmmadanbad, who's country persecutes Christians and Gays, give the alternative QUEENS speech on CHRISTMAS day!".....
"Oooh good thinking Julian...."
30

James Donald,

Newbridge 26/12/2008 11:32:58
#28 Mashimaro,Red China - "Tanks... military... that was 20 years ago" - So if the authority of the CCP was threatened the would be no tanks back on the streets? Dream on. What sustains the Communist Party in power is armed might, political police and a network of slave camps whether it is in China, Tibet or elsewhere.
31

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 26/12/2008 12:35:15
#28
I’m glad that Tibet appears to be as prosperous as you claim that it is.

That will be why we could see so many Tibetan National flags being proudly flown around the Olympic Stadium in Beijing.

Tanks and military in your city square?

Yes, that was 20 years ago and therefore does not count?

Aye right, we have long memories in Scotland, and 20 years is a mere blip in history, nought but a paragraph in the annals of time.

Many of us looked towards Mao Tse Tung as a great liberator, a great thinker, and an immense interpreter of Marx.

What did you give us instead?

Tiananmen Square!
32

Matt there,

Somewhere 26/12/2008 13:11:14
Next Christmas, Channel 4 will have an alternative Christmas Message by the Grand Wizard of the KKK.

Or perhaps an alternative broadcast on the abuse of children by a paedophile?
33

2dogs in D.C.,

26/12/2008 13:56:57
Try not to hold it in,Mashimaro.Let it out, you'll feel better.
34

Buck Rogers,

in the 25th Century 26/12/2008 14:16:48
#29 I take it that you are having a laugh. I was told about the Scottish guy based in Hong Kong who likes to use this forum to wind folk up. Presume that this is you?

If so, I am surprised that you are able to hold down that high paid job if you cannot come up with anything original to use in your put-downs.

But then again, perhaps you are not the guy I refer to and you are just some guy firing on all cylinders but with very little ooooomph!

I have spent many occasions in the homes of Persians and been treated unbelievably well. I have also had to associate with Chinese businessmen who murdered for the trivial matter of stopping a former employee set up in competition with their factory. There is good and bad in every society around the world. My view is that the majority of people are good. The majority of governments are bad and dangerous.

The Iranian leaders are no more or no less dangerous than the Israelis, the Russians, the USA, the British or the Chinese.

Finally, as someone who purports to be living in a country that has a record on capital punishment and corruption that eclipses Iran (and also a Government that seeks to fund and protect countries like Iran purely for profit) it is a bit rich for you to be lecturing anyone else about boot-licking!

35

Buck Rogers,

in the 25th Century 26/12/2008 14:20:39
Why is it that the 'corporate tarts' of this world (occasionally referred to as "Expatriates") are invariably the ones that are foaming at the mouth on these dicussion boards?
36

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 26/12/2008 14:25:01
#38 2dogs in D.C.,
Thanks so much for the Christmas wish double dog, much appreciated and heart felt, and please keep up the humour, you're good for a million laughs and you've got that kind of sense of humour not often seen and lacking in almost everybody. Many happy returns to you and Mrs. dogs and may 'er ling ling jiu nian' be the best ever, that would be 2009 to you;-))))
37

Wisnaeme,

26/12/2008 14:38:44
I have an Iranian neighbour, an intelligent, hard working, law abiding, worldly wise, good friend. I've had many a discussion on this and that with himself and his circle of friends.
Amongst other things we have in common is a deep and cynical mistrust of 'governments' and associated state organs; Theirs, ours and of others.
This mistrust encourages resentment of state sponsored lies, spin, unaccountability, incompetence and irresponsibility. A misuse and abuse of our trust. This government does not appear to be engaged in the solving of our problems and concerns. Indeed, it seems he11 bent on creating it's own agenda of priorities. regurgitating dislikes and expedient exaggerations.
Perhaps the loss of influence in a client state still irks when the Shah and his murderous and corrupt state organs were kicked out in an exercise of cause and effect. Folk should have learnt lessons from that but obviously haven't.
Perhaps States that once fawned apon Iran and Iraq as they now do with best pals Saudi Princes have had their noses put out of joint by the fact that they can no longer rule the middle east or parts more eastern by proxy.
...and that the natives of those regions can think for themselves and can act in defence of their own best interests and do not necessary need to be so accommodating in placing the best interests of other governments, in other distant states above the needs and aspirations of their own peoples.
Whatever. Pot, kettle and black used in the cooking up of mince; fear mongering, ignorance, sabre rattling and imparted disinformation does us no favours at all. Our control freak government's sheer breath taking hypocrisy, arrogance and intransigence knows no boundaries. Perhaps the same could be said of other governments, in other states. But then, that's for their own peoples to decide. Isn't it.
.
38

Scimitar1,

26/12/2008 14:42:48
The Taliban are being drip-fed support (guns, explosives, etc) by the Iranians - just enough to keep them killing Westerners, not enough to make them too powerful - so the Iranians are, without doubt, causing the death of UK Soldiers now. To give them this 'official' support makes us look even more foolish than we normally manage - and, sadly, that's really saying something.

How on earth can people hate their own country so much when our society, although certainly not perfect(thanks to NuLabour) is years ahead of many regimes in this world including Iran. We have no death penalty yet Iran has. Iran despises jews, we don't. We allow homosexuals the same rights as us while Iran kills them. We allow any faith to live in the UK and convert to whatever they choose and yet Iran kills apostates of Islam and persecutes Christians. We punish rapists and murderers yet Iran protects them and instead murders the victims.
What is wrong with all of you, so wrapped up in anti Western/pro Palestinian propaganda and hate for Israel, that you can defend Ahmadinejad and Ch4's decision?
39

Mashimaro,

China 26/12/2008 14:45:03
#33 sorry to disappoint you Jimmy but no, there wouldn't be tanks on the streets unless there was a issue that threatened the security of the entire nation - as happened at Tienanamen.
there are riots and protests in China almost every day. yet the tanks don't come out on to the streets, Jimmy, any more than your British soldiers hack off the ears of Xhosa chiefs to wear as trophy necklaces or any of the other bad things your nation has done.
And you want to know what? Thank gods that my country's leaders had the strength of will to do what they did at Tianamen otherwise my country would be just like Thailand is today, just like the Congo is, starving, at war and paralysed. The men who made the call to bring in the tanks that you like to point at - even though you have no clue as to what really happened at Tianamen - had iron wills and made the best possible decision at the time.
You imagine in your boys own fantasies that China would have somehow fallen into the "fold of democracy" like Iraq was supposed to. Well here's a news flash for yah! 5000 years bud! We know what works and what doesn't work when your'e trying to hold together 56 different nations in a country full of natural disasters when everyone is trying to break you apart.
So yuk it up you pog. Show the world what an ignorant dip you are. As far as Tianamen is concerned, China has nothing to be ashamed of.
40

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 26/12/2008 14:57:12
#35 bully wee alba,
I take it you're not aware that Mao had long passed away come 1989? Try 1976.
41

Grahamski,

Falkirk 26/12/2008 14:59:43
Who on earth would seriously suggest that there is no difference between a medieval theocracy and a modern, liberal and democratic state?
It would be laughable if it wasn't so downright sickening to hear the palpable nonsense and ill-concealed anti-semitism coming from the apologists of the extreme fundamentalism.
Lenin described people like these as useful idiots, and to Tehran and the forces of islamo-fascism they are indeed useful idiots.
42

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 26/12/2008 15:05:28
#39 Buck Rogers,
Nah, that would be Finlang, but I rather doubt that he even knows where China is, he just talks big, and currently claims to be in France and in Switzerland before that and God only knows where else.
43

Observer..,

Glasgow 26/12/2008 15:44:52
46 that is a genuinely interesting question (Happy Winter Solstice etc).

The regime in Iran has been responsible for some appalling things, like hanging a teenage girl from a crane because she had sex with a man (unpunished).

But to just write off Iran as a medieval theocrocy, given that countriess long and sometimes noble history, would be a huge mistake. And you nowhere acknowledge the evils committed by the so called modern liberal democracies of the West.

Iran is in the grip of religious fundamentalism, which of course took hold after the corrupt and Western sponsored Shah was overturned.

If we are going to try and bridge the huge gaps which exist between our two countries, then we are not going to do that by condemning each other. We are also not going to do that by talking about ''Islamo fascism''.

Are all Germans fascists, or Italians ? No, and neither are all muslims. If we want to find common ground with the other side of the world, which I think we do, we should be dropping the hostility and careless use of language, and trying to find common ground, because it does exist.

44

Barbarra,

NYC 26/12/2008 15:49:42
The Iranian students are having shoe throwing competitions at Tehran University. "A shoe throwing competition using a portrait of George Bush as the target took place on Friday in Iran's capital.
Iranians in the capital were invited to throw their shoes at a poster of U.S. President George Bush after the country's traditional Friday Muslim prayers were over. The event was held at Tehran University.
Once there were enough direct hits and the portrait became shabby, the crowd tore the poster down and ripped it to pieces."
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/26/shoe.thrower.iran/
What a hoot!!!!
Look at the picture of Bush with the shoe in his face lol
45

Grahamski,

Falkirk 26/12/2008 15:54:08
48
My use of the term islamo-fascist is short hand for the extreme fundamentalist strand of Islam advocated by President Ahmadinejad . I do not suggest for one moment that all Iranians are equally tarnished by his hateful beliefs.
By all means carry on with your self-flagellation and tell us how terrible western democracy is. Given the choice I know where I'd rather live.
I have no common ground with anybody who is a homphobic, mysoginistic holocaust-denying anti-semite. They are in the wrong and I will oppose them and their loathsome views for as long as they hold them.
46

Observer..,

Glasgow 26/12/2008 16:02:28
50 I am not in favour of homophobia, misogyny, ant-semitism, or religious fundamentalism myself. But if you do not acknowledge the role the West has played in actually creating the conditions for extreme religious fundamentalism to take root - and we need look no further than Iraq, a formerly secular country, now ridden with fundamentalism - then how do you think you can debate the issue in a realistic sense ? You might call it ''self-flagellation'' I call it recognising reality when i see it.

Whilst I have not time for the attitudes I have listed above, I also have to time for out and out imperialism, law breaking, war mongering, and massacre of innocents, all in the pursuit of oil and the political interests of a foreign government.
47

Grahamski,

Falkirk 26/12/2008 16:16:05
51
What conditions are necessary for extreme fundamentalism to take root exactly? Iraq is a very strange example, a former fascist state liberated by the western democracies 'ridden by fundamentalism'? I would argue that the biggest massacre of innocents perpetrated in Iraq isn't carried out by the armies of the western democracies but by the islamo-fascists of al-qaeda and the rump of Saddam's fascist thugs who were described as 'insurgents' by those self-loathing westerners who support anybody who fights the west.
There is a distinct whiff of racism about those who would excuse the barbarism of terrorism as moral relativism but condemn their own country's attempts to protect itself.
48

2dogs in D.C.,

26/12/2008 16:59:04
#41-Postit-Now don't you go thinking you've won any converts to your stinkin' commie ways here, just because i wish you and yours well ;) But, I did mean what I wrote.
49

Observer..,

Glasgow 26/12/2008 17:04:39
52 You forget that al Quida had no presence in Iraq before the invasion. And the rump of Saddam's party are Sunnis, pitted against the Iran backed Shias. And to call the invasion of Iraq protectionism is hypocrisy personified, no Iraqi presented a threat to you or me. I suppose what I am trying to say is that the situation is a whole lot more complex than you make out, and the West is culpable in the whole mess. I don't know why you insist on trying to deny that, the evidence is clear for all to see.

Extremism begets extremism, and we are extremists too.
50

2dogs in D.C.,

26/12/2008 17:17:42
#54-Observer-Your last sentence does speak volumes. I tend to agree. I would also quote a good friend of mine when he said "I hate all haters".
51

,

26/12/2008 17:40:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
52

Observer..,

Glasgow 26/12/2008 19:59:19
The only thing I would add to your post AS, is that the study by Bergen and Cruickshanks has concluded that the world is now seven times more dangerous since the invasion of Iraq. There is extreme fundamentalist danger, but that did not spring out of nothing. And draconian laws, designed for control of the UK population in reality, will not counter that danger.

We cannot have any form of realistic debate, or hope to find a solution to the global problems in front of us, unless we acknowledge that reality. That is not self-flagellation, as Grahamski would say, it is self awareness. And recognising that does not put you in the same camp as the terrorist, it puts you in the camp of those people from both the Western and the muslim world, who want to put a stop to terrorism, using reason, not force.
53

Observer..,

Glasgow 26/12/2008 20:12:20
Grahamski seems to find it surprising that a self confessed socialist like me isn't a supporter of Labour. Many reasons, but the overwhelming one, now and forever, is Iraq.
54

Wisnaeme,

26/12/2008 20:34:20
post 43 wrote:

"The Taliban are being drip-fed support (guns, explosives, ect)..."

Indeed. Stinger missiles, C4, various types of bad for your health, anti-personnel and anti-tank ordinance, funding and logistical support, not to mention instructors in the use and for the use of.

Aye, we're doing our duty waging war by proxy by helping these poor oppressed freedom fighters free their country from occupation by a nasty foreign power engaged in murder, mayhem and destruction against innocent civilians.
Aye, and against a puppet regime controlled and manipulated by said nasty foreign power engaged in activities foreign to the brave freedom fighter's ways and customs.

Aye, something must be done to aid them. Indeed.

personally, I prefer the "damage" inflicted by Ch4 to that of C4 or like substances for the use of. But then it's a matter of reactivities,perspectives, opinions and of 'the means justify the results'. Though I doubt very much if the results were up to the somewhat delusional expectations of those who allied themselves by proxy to erm 'freedom fighters'.

But there you are, one person's freedom fighter against whatever is another person's terrorist.
Particularly when it comes to being above international law, and of being the cause of destruction, terror, mayhem, maiming and carnage in the name of whatever.
Aye right, the world is a safer place for innocents and peace loving folk. Protected as we are by our lords and master's masterful interventions in aiding freedom fighters and lovers of peace, I'm sure.

Dearie me, there's that pot, kettle and black again.
.
55

Itchy,

26/12/2008 23:35:14
#50 "But if you do not acknowledge the role the West has played in actually creating the conditions for extreme religious fundamentalism to take root"

Guardianista drivel. Apparently, the west is always to blame and never the people of the middle east.

"- and we need look no further than Iraq, a formerly secular country, now ridden with fundamentalism "

It always was ridden with fundamentalism. It was a Socialist dictatorship with a fundamentalist muslim population.

#57 BTW as a socialist, what complaint can you have against draconian laws?
56

James Donald,

Newbridge 26/12/2008 23:38:34
#44 Mashimaro,Red China - Yeah, that's what I mean, an issue that "threatened the security of the entire nation" i.e. something that threatened the authority of the Communist Party. To party loyalists, these are ane and the same thing.
The Communist party accepts no challenges to its authority and will use the armed forces to put down any threat, including using armour against unarmed civilians. "Iron Will" to suppress any opposition to a one party state and maintain the supremacy of the Communist party. Only scum see no shame in such brutality and see such naked oppression as a virtue.
57

Itchy,

26/12/2008 23:41:39
#58 and let us not forget that Ahmadinejad came to power running a socialist campaign which is why you are a cheerleader for him.

#48 "Iran is in the grip of religious fundamentalism, which of course took hold after the corrupt and Western sponsored Shah was overturned. "

So, the answer to a corrupt government is to oust it and install one even less liberal?

Useful idiot.
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Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 27/12/2008 00:42:25
#61 James Donald
I think you'll find China will open the door to full elections in the near future I believe 2020 was mentioned. At present I believe China needs to remain steady and on course for a number of years yet, no need for any internal or external conflicts at this point in time. We all need to deal with global warming and world recessions.
59

James Donald,

Newbridge 27/12/2008 00:59:10
#63 Rob Bennett,Point Piper Australia - Not that I would call 2020 "the near future" but I think you will find that the Communist party will not permit free and open elections (i.e. with genuine opposition candidates) for fear of losing. All this "China needs to remain steady and on course for a number of years yet....." guff is just so much tosh.
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Mashimaro,

China 27/12/2008 01:12:22
#61 Jimmy, humour me. What do you think would have happened if Tiananmen had not been cleared hnn?
Let us bear in mind a few things:
The protests had been going on for MONTHS. Various demands had been met and yet they still wanted more.
The protests had spread to other parts of the country where they were turning violent.
Students had attacked police and burned vehicles.
Strikers had attacked army and burned vehicles.
Army personel had been beaten to death.
The students were - with the help of CIA organisation becoming more beligerant and more organised.
Beijing's city centre had been paralysed for the time they had been there.
They had been negotiating with the government all the time and no resolution had been found.
The students and public had been very very clearly warned to leave the square and stay off the street. They chose not to do that. They chose to bring confrontation.
1.3 billion people... on the brink of yet another civil war, in a country making progress, almost able to feed itself, risking to lose its water supply, billions of dollars in damage, no one knows how many lives in the actual fighting and the resulting famine and drought...
We had had two months of Tiananmen not being cleared and the problem had become progressively worse. Can you imagine the santiation logistics of what was going on there? There was no end in sight, the mood was steadily getting worse.

Tell me, oh wise one - whose nations slaughters children in Afghanistan and Iraq - what do you think would have happened if Tiananmen had not been cleared?
61

Mashimaro,

China 27/12/2008 01:18:47
#60 Itchy, you are way off the truth. Iraq was secular. That wss the problem. Its neighbours didn't like how much freedom the people had. They didn't enjoy the fact that women went to college and held down decent jobs.
The terrorist alumni from Afghanistan's war were aggrieved because they knew the freedom in Iraq was a cancer that would spread to their own countries. As did the UKUS alliance. And if that cancer spread to other oil-rich countries people might want to install governments no so friendly to the US, not so willing to pump oil for the US.
Wake up and smell the oil, bsby.
As far as the west was concerned Saddam was okay as long as he was their lackey. The moment he decided not to lick their boots, they started their negative propaganda campaign against him.
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Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 27/12/2008 01:19:19
#64 James Donald
You, Postmark, Mashimaro and your best mate, big-mouth Bragginhead should all get together for New Year drinks. What a hoot that would be.
Merry Christmas to ya James anyway.
63

James Donald,

Newbridge 27/12/2008 01:55:54
#65 Mashimaro,Red China - Holy moly, Zipp, what a crock. Never heard of non-lethal methods of crowd control and dispersal. Tiananmen was not the first time that a Communist government has sent tanks onto the streets to suppress unarmed civilians nor will it be the last. As I said, the Communist Party reacts with extreme force when it thinks its authority is being challenged, then after the event they suppress the truth or have their little marionettes tell tales. The House of Terror museum in Budapest has examples of how this was carried out by the Hungarian Stalinists after the 1956 uprising. Like most dictatorships, we do not find out the true level of the crimes they have carried out until they are toppled and your red cesspit will be no different.
As the Chinese Communist Party has the death of millions on it hands (Communism having accounted for the deaths of approx. 100 million people in the 20th Century), I hardly think you are in a position to point the finger at any country when it comes to "slaughtering children".
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James Donald,

Newbridge 27/12/2008 02:00:38
#67 Rob Bennett,Point Piper Australia - I could probably find a pub in West Lothian with a few bitter, obnoxious old men without the need to invite these old duffers. They are nearer to you than me, so you have them for New Year drinks. Let me know how many "hoots" you get (if you are lucky, D***head might give you his infamous "I'll deck you on the spot" speech). Ho, ho, ho.........
65

Mashimaro,

27/12/2008 03:25:14
#68 Nice side step on the answer, Jimmy Dee... I see you don't have the answer either. Do you honestly think in your wild foam at the mouth ranting dreams that Beijing did not TRY non-lethal means? Do you not know that the soldiers when they first went in to Tiananmen were not even allowed to wear leather belts in case anyone was hurt? Did you know that huh?
No, I thought not.
So I'm still waiting... what was the answer?
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James Donald,

Newbridge 27/12/2008 10:08:56
#70 Mashimaro - There is no answer to a Communist propagandist as such individuals have no interest in the truth. As I stated, we will only find out the true extend of the crimes of the Chinese Communist Party after it is toppled and not from "yellow peril" propagandists doing their bit for the socialist motherland on the internet.
What was it you were waiting for again Zippy?
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James Donald,

Newbridge 27/12/2008 10:32:48
#73 Joseph Gibson,Ayrshire - By your reasoning, because I have never lived in Nazi Germany, I have little understanding of it which is, of course, nonsense. The "you have to live there to understand it" is the classic reaction of the Chinese Communist trolls.
China is not as united as you think but merely held together by the strap of the Communist Party (by China, I presume you mean the Peoples Republic rather than the 23 million people of the Repubic of China). That "our bloody corrupt government" would be unable to control a country of 1.2 million is really neither here nor there since it seems incapable of making a success of a country of 60 million. Britain did, however, manage to successfully run an Empire which covered a quarter of the globe for quite a few years (something only ended by two fraticidal World Wars) so at the very least it shows that we had a talent for administration.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 27/12/2008 10:45:34
#73 & #74 Joseph Gibson,Ayrshire - Whilst I have no problem with Ahmadinejad spreading his "Christmas message" (those who are offended or don't want to hear can simply use the remote and watch "Eastenders"), I think your warnings of inpending collapse in Britain due to multiculturalism are premature but not entirely unfounded. I see more likelyhood, at least in the short term, of the ghettoisation of parts of Britain (almost entirely in England), a process which has already started. As someone who lives in a village of 1500 people with virtually no ethnic minorities, it is sometimes hard to imagine the towns in England such as Bradford and Leicester where there are whole areas with virtually no white population. If the problems you predict come to pass, they will not be confined to the UK (even China has a Muslim population of between 20 and 100 million according to the BBC).
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Shamus,

Glasgow 27/12/2008 11:14:47
It is important that the religious nutters like Ahmadinejad are listened to. Also nutters of the Christians, Jews and others. If you do not know what they are up to then it would be difficult to confront them when required. I had the privelage to talk to some old soldiers that had to enter the Nazi Death Camps. Now who was lying our soldiers or the Iranian. The fact that those who know the Holocaust did take place but deny it is cleary a warning that it can easily happen again. So whose turn will it be the next time!
74

tommy,

belfast uk 27/12/2008 11:23:59
On Tuesday Hamas legislators marked the Christmas season by passing a Sharia criminal code for the Palestinian Authority. Among other things, the code legalizes crucifixion for enemies of islam. and dont forget the 60 mortars fired into Israel earlier this week
They also did not neglect Christians
on Wednesday Hamas lobbed a mortar at Erez crossing point into Israel just as a group of Gazan Christians were standing on line waiting to travel to Bethlehem for Christmas.
http://tinyurl.com/8vkglw
and we let the thug in chief speak on TV-- proclaiming islams divine prophet???

As far as I can see--In the uk the "Nanny State" has produced nothing but goats
75

Mashimaro,

China 27/12/2008 12:33:40
#75 You to come up with the goods, Jimmy. But guess what... you came up empty, yet again. Not a good omen for any women in your life eh.
Meh... you know nothing and say much. But I'll say this to you... when the hands stop working, so does the mouth.

Joseph - use away, dude.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 27/12/2008 13:15:57
#80 Mashimaro,Red China - No goods for you, Zippy, if you are after "goods" get one of your wage slaves to provide. Cheap shots and laughable propaganda is all you are good for, little poison dwarf.
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27/12/2008 17:15:00
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Big Carbon Footprint,

East Lothian 27/12/2008 17:18:13
It's always nice to have the Labour Party shout at us to respect other cultures whilst these barbaric nations like Iran happily string up Christians and other groups in the name of their 'Religion of Peace'
But this present Government will turn a blind eye to this suffering but happy sell arms to the Saudis, even when any twits knows the Saudi ruling elite despise us.

There will be a huge backlash against these types of people in this Country and the blood will be on the hands of the do-gooders and those who believe multiculturalism is a workable idea and always push it down the throats of the silent majority.
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27/12/2008 17:19:22
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Big Carbon Footprint,

East Lothian 27/12/2008 17:32:16
If the holocaust was a 'misunderstanding' how #82 do you account for the dead people who turned up in big holes all over the place, or the partially burned bones found in ovens need I go on, and yes my great uncle was their with his camera to prove what had happened.
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St Andrew 01,

27/12/2008 19:16:24
Lousie Elman should be ashamed, her only concern is that the Iranian leader is anti semetic! Shame on her, does she not realise that there is a holocaust happening as we speak in Palestine at the hands of the Israeli government?
The Iranian President may or may not be a barbaric monster, I dont know enough to comment, but can he be any worse than men like Bush and Blair who attack for reasons of commerce and power?
I am not defending the Iranian leader, not even nearly, but before people like Elam start pointing fingers they should look a little closer to home.
When she begins to fight for the plight of the Palestinian people I will believe she is honourable, until then she is a pawn playing her best game of political chess for her own agenda - as always
82

James Donald,

Newbridge 27/12/2008 19:38:43
#87 St Andrew 01 - As I indicated at my post #16 Elman is a prominent member of Labour Friends of Israel, a group which its own website describes as "a Westminster based lobby group working within the British Labour Party to promote the State of Israel". The leader of this group David Mercer was at one point a volunteer in the IDF.
83

St Andrew 01,

27/12/2008 20:03:22
James

I think this woman is an agitator who will use history as a weapon to obtain what she needs to fulfil her own agenda.
She has clearly chosen to mention the holocaust of 1947 but refuses to acknowledge or assist the people of Palestine who are now suffering at the hands of a despicable Israeli onslaught.
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27/12/2008 20:35:34
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Shamus,

Glasgow 27/12/2008 21:46:51
92# Cardinal Joseph. THE SOVIETS had Gulags. The SOVIETS TREATED ALL DISSIDENTS EQUALLY (NOT VERY NICE.)To their credit they as far as I know did not not build factories to get rid of human beings as a policy.
Fear and a bullit in the back of the head was good enough for them.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 27/12/2008 22:09:49
#91 Joseph Gibson - You assume wrong then. What I stated was that this was one tactic used by Chinese Communist trolls in the Western media, especially subsequent to the recent unrest in Tibet.
If you can clearly see that I am trying to defend the British Government then you need your eyes tested, thus I am in no need of your "News Flash" as you put it.
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Mashimaro,

China 28/12/2008 02:17:32
#91 Jimmy Dee doesn't defend anything. He doesn't stand for anything - it saves him so much time on reading the facts, even when they are easily available. He just like to pontificate and attack people with sloganeering instead of any acutual thought.
What Israel is doing to Palestine is terrible. I have no love for the apartheid state, but in its defence . . . it does have to fight every single day to maintain its existence. This is what happens when you bolster a weak nation in the middle of its rival. War without end. Some nations require strong leaders. It is mind boggling that nations with weak leaders would want to inflict that kind of leadership on a volatile region. The last time this are saw any kind of peace was when Genghis Khan ruled it. He wasn't really big on democracy or "human rights". But the people lived well and prospered. That's more than can be said for the current state of affairs.
90

Finlang,

Hong Kong 28/12/2008 03:27:48
#47 POSTMARK,-55, China (allegedly)
"#39 Buck Rogers,
Nah, that would be Finlang, but I rather doubt that he even knows where China is, he just talks big, and currently claims to be in France and in Switzerland before that and God only knows where else."

Oh no it wouldn't be Finlang. And no he doesn't talk big. He talks with an authority that you will never possess.

A cursory check of any post by me will reveal that I don't do wind-ups. That's the
P!ssmark's pathetic game. You, mister, are probably the sickest entity on these columns since your emergence here some 18 months ago. All of whom you attack personally in typically juvenile manner know it. You are a very bitter and twisted individual indeed. What did Canada do to you, little insignificant man, that shapes your vile comments? A personal ethnic problem maybe? Whatever, you are in the wrong place, if you are actually here in China, to be casting aspersions. Note well. Some of us in and outside of the country know how China works rather better than your pretentious blasts attempt to do. You repeatedly try to ingratiate yourself with China's government via your cringingly awful employment of OUR, MY, US and WE. Converts are always the worst form of attack-dog, since they almost never represent the mainstream. You are a fake and will never be recognised in China as Chinese no matter how hard you blow. Think on that.

Trying to rationalise the drivel you trot out is wasted effort. You are evidently jealous of those who possess a shred more intellect than you do. Which, given the level of your contributions on here, is most people. In my case you don't come anywhere close. You are clearly sickeningly envious of my (and others') comfortable association with China, which comprehensively predates by many years your alleged acquaintance with the country and its people. I speak and write the langauage and I contribute to its economy and culture when there, to everybody's advantage. You are merely a gross e
91

Finlang,

Hong Kong 28/12/2008 03:35:08
lost from above ...

You are merely a gross embarrassment. A nonentity with a very loud bad mouth.

The fact that I also travel and work in Europe clearly irks you. Slinging tripe-laden insults wins you no friends, but your playgrgound bully style knows no other way. Bullies have no friends. You couldn't likely find Switzerland on a map since you are as ignorant of Europe as your affected familiarity with China. (Clue: Switzerland is partly surrounded by France on its western borders.) Oh yes, I speak fluent French also. I've known most countries in Europe since childhood through travel and education and have had, and continue to have, the good fortune to work in many of them. As with HK and China.

This Scottish newspaper forum has become something of a platform for your interminable assaults on anyone and everyone. Not welcome elsewhere? Not even in your homeland of Canada? Hardly surprising. Keep sucking the lemons, loser.


92

James Donald,

Newbridge 28/12/2008 06:40:41
#95 Mashimaro,Red China - Let's face it Zippy, you deal in propaganda and myth rather than facts; so much easier to invent a "fact" than face the truth. One only has to look at his repetoir of "facts" on Tibet.
People lived well and prospered under Ghengis Khan - another highly questionable "fact" from the yellow peril but it does give an insight into his desire for a strong leader.....like Mao or Stalin perhaps.
93

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 28/12/2008 08:08:48
#96 Finlang,
Well I sure hope that you feel better now after that outburst, that little temper tantrum of yours. Only child are you? Never had to share? Never were put in your place before?
And I'm impressed that you did well in your geography lessons, but that still doesn't mean that you've travelled, you just learned how to turn the pages of an Atlas.
And My, you sure do wind up great, but you unwind even better, best Christmas toy I've received in many years.
Now please have another look in the Atlas, I live in that country in the far east called China, can you see it in your Atlas?
Of course you can't, you're holding it upside down and you're presently looking west as we speak.

Season's greetings Finlang, Season's Greetings.
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P. Lee,

28/12/2008 13:24:11
#96 & #97 Finlang
Ha, you got no class and are just little juvenile kicking up stink for no reason. I think you need to see a brain doctor and have x-ray immediately. Did you forget to take medication?
95

Bele's bane,

Scotland 28/12/2008 15:01:34
Post #86 Big Carbon Footprint

Bodies of victims of Typhoid have to be speedily disposed of, mass burial and cremation are ideal. Even medieval plague victims were intered in mass graves!

If your Great Uncle's camrea captured images of Jews being gassed or otherwise being murdered he cannot lay claim to having "evidence" of what he believes happened!

If he can produce these photographs of actual alleged gassings or shootings taking place in his presence then let him come forward and present what would then be classified as indisputable evidence!
96

Bele's bane,

Scotland 28/12/2008 15:04:08
Post 101 continued

Apologies, please insert the word "Unless" instead of If as the opening word of my second sentence.
97

Finlang,

Hong Kong (China) 30/12/2008 08:02:06
#99 POSTMARK,-55,China (allegedly, definitely allegedly)

Your continued spew on these pages displays perfectly your lack of intellect. Your smart-àrse childish taunting, goading, insensitivity illustrate that you are a classic cyber-bully, with the bully's ignorance of and shortcomings of life as most of us know it. You DO NOT represent life in China, however much you would like to ingratiate yourself. But ingratiation is the typical bully's way when all else fails. Take your newly fake grovelling homilies to erstwhile enemies Guga and Rob Bennett. And to the normally pleasant 2-Dogs in DC who sees straight though you. Sickening, you are, but typical. You disgust me.

If ignorance (and jealousy) is all that you are about then continue to vomit your immaturity. Makes no difference to me, but I'd prefer that you leave me out of your filthy attacks. I have never used childish
sh!t to rubbish you, yet that is all you can do when your argument fails. You talk of wind-up. Yep, that is you. That is what you do. If your only point on here is to antagonise, and that is plain, then you are a lost cause. You pick on me presently in stalker fashion, because that is the bully trait. You'll find somebody else to punch when I leave the fray. Congratulations again on your limited success in life.

You see, my long-time knowledge of and personal experience in China, past and present (not page-turning atlases as you would like to have it), will put distance from any of your vacuous claims. You are nothing but a pathetic fraud. Whereas, I have no claims that I need to make, other than my own continued successes in China (and Switzerland and France let's not omit). Oh, and Canada and the USA too while we@ew at it. China is a land that you continue to fake as your own, whilst a failed citizen of another.

Congratulations. For me, China is a revered place in which I have made a mark with a people I adore and respect and whose reciprocation I continue to value. And - sickeni
98

Finlang,

Hong Kong (China) 30/12/2008 08:07:09
contd ...

Congratulations. For me, China is a revered place in which I have made a mark with a people I adore and respect and whose reciprocation I continue to value. And - sickeningly - whom you continue to shame with every ill-informed post you make on here.

You are a bloody disgrace and a thoroughly nasty intruder here. Your further tripe #99, supported by the resurrected #100 "P.Lee" (your alter ego/tame parrot, which we have witnessed before when you ran out of personal filth to emit), expresses you perfectly. You are evil.
99

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30/12/2008 11:56:16
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POSTMARK,-55,

China, 01/01/2009 08:14:39
#103 Finlang,
Yet another Christmas and still only a lump of coal eh Finlang, that's OK, there's always next year.
Happy New Year Finlang, Happy New Year.

 

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