Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


T in the Park
The article has been unable to display.
 
1

truthsleuth,

09/10/2008 01:07:58
10 green bottles standing on the wall.....


Soon They WILL take over.
2

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 09/10/2008 01:18:05
Why should Scotland have TWO systems of law when one has endured and worked for centuries.

The Muslims want things their way and their way ONLY.

These Sharia courts of law are alien to the Scottish way of life and hopefully will NEVER be present in Scotland.

Ontario has banned them from our province to an overwhelming majority because two systems of dealing with legal matters is too complicated and contradicts our heritage and history.

DON'T LET THE MUSLIMS TRY TO TAKE OVER!
3

Tom in Belmont,

Belmont 09/10/2008 02:48:13
So let me get this straight: the SNP spurns London while embracing Mecca.

What am I missing?
4

Bend Over,

09/10/2008 02:49:18
Say goodbye to Great Britain, we will only get it back with a fight.
5

Dragonhead,

Dalian,China 09/10/2008 02:54:20
You still don't get it Scotland! Where ever they go, their one mission is to TAKE OVER.Conspiracy theory? Bangladeshi immigrants in battles in India.Muslim Chinese extremists in Xinjiang China demanding to cecede from China.Problems in Italy,Germany,France, the UK.It is 'colonization' by stealth rather than out and out invasion. Wakey, wakey.
6

Ron Reale,

Fort Lauderdale, FL 09/10/2008 02:54:33
Why do people so blithly accept that Muslims have the right to their own set of laws in someone elses country?
There are plenty of muslim countries they can go to. If they moved to Britain or Scotland to become citizens of those fine Democrocies, they are welcome to assimilate.
If they came to start their own country inside a free country, that is a silent declaration of war that will only lead to instability and a lack of confidence in the Home Country.
The Austalian Prime Minister, John Howard made a brilliant speech recently, (Oct. 2007). You people should pay attention:
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you", he said on National Television

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia : one the Australian law and another Islamic law that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option", Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims wh
7

Ron Reale,

Fort Lauderdale, FL 09/10/2008 02:56:34
(Continued)Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off. Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want, to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off", he said.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote: "IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians."

"However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the 'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia " "However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand." "This idea of Australia being a multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity And as Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle."

"This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom"

"We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society Learn the language!"

"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of
8

Ron Reale,

09/10/2008 02:59:28
(Continued 2)
"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture."

"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us."

"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.

"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,

'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'."

"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

God I love that every time I read it!

Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, American and other free citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing the same truths.
Ron Reale
realetybytes@yahoo.com
realetybytes.townhall.com

9

W Smith,

Middle East 09/10/2008 03:35:23
Typical SNP.

After mixing with known Jihadists at Stop The War Coalition meetings Salmond's silence can only be interpreted one way.

After lecturing us on the 'Butchers Apron', the tyranny of English rule, etc, there is an eerie silence from the SNP supporters over this.

BTW
Any action on Hanif yet?
10

Proud to have Scots blood,

New York, N.Y. 09/10/2008 05:00:45
I remember John Howard's speech. It was on target.
I met an Egyptian woman in the late 80's who was a physician and Coptic. During our conversation she told me that our country, the United States should d all in its power to keep Muslims out. She told me they want to turn the world Muslim and they despise anyone who is not Muslim. She continued that they want to destroy America. It was uncomprehensible
to me. Then along came the Cole, '93 dynamiting of
WTC garage, attempts to blow up a Brooklyn subway station, etc., and the destruction of the Twin Towers wherein ordinary people & those who went to help them were slaughtered. I have no doubts that more acts
of terrorism are on the way. We need more John Howards.
11

why can't I use my own name???,

musselburgh 09/10/2008 06:34:04
'Qamar Bhatti, director of the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal (MAT), which runs the courts, admitted discussions were taking place with lawyers and Muslim community groups in Scotland.'

They can have their secret little talks! That slippery eel won't get past the Judiciary, and the Exec better not go soft on it, either! Still, when it gets knocked back, they will operate their 'courts' clandestinely. In fact, don't they do this already??
12

Guga II,

Rockall 09/10/2008 06:37:13
If these people want to be ruled by Sharia law, then I strongly suggest that they move to a country that operates under that system.

Scottish law does, and should continue, to apply to everyone living in Scotland. There is no room for differing legal systems based on particular religions.

Taken to its logical and farcical conclusion, if a group of people living in Scotland are immigrants from Haiti, does that mean they have the right to set up a legal system based on voodoo beliefs?

If the SNP, or any political party, condones such extra-territorial legal jurisdiction for immigrants living in Scotland, they will end up alienating the Scottish people.

The old adage about when you live in Rome, do as the Romans do, applies to the legal system. If I live in Saudi Arabia, I have no alternative but to accept their legal system. They will not make any allowances for me being a foreigner in their country; nor should they. The same should apply for any foreigners, or foreign immigrants living in Scotland. They should accept that they have to comply with Scottish law. If they don't like it, no-one is stopping them from leaving.
13

Lanna,

09/10/2008 06:41:56
#12 Guga,
well said.

This makes for an interesting read: 'why Sharia law must be opposed':
http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html
14

JaE_in_Oz,

Oz 09/10/2008 07:06:53
Ron Reale #6,7,8 does not note that the Howard government was defeated shortly after with Howard himself losing his seat. Costello is still sulking on the back benches.
The view on Sharia law is probably reasonably representative mainly because Australia is steadily becoming more secular with less and less church going. A referendum on adding a preamble to the constitution calling us something like "one nation under God" was heavily defeated.
The masses are slowly becoming less opiated!
15

John S,

09/10/2008 07:13:35
#12 Guga II, I agree when you wrote if the SNP, or any political party, condones such extra-territorial legal jurisdiction for immigrants living in Scotland, they will end up alienating the Scottish people.

This was the sensible decision by Ontario's premier, Dalton McGuinty,who said Ontario will reject the use of Shariah law and will move to prohibit all religious-based tribunals to settle family disputes such as divorce.
He ruled against the move in September 2005, saying there should be "one law for all Ontarians".He was also forced to ban other religions which had been using faith-based tribunals. September 11, 2005
16

donald,

glasgow 09/10/2008 07:35:49
Sharia. I once had a mother in law called Sharia.
17

Guga II,

Rockall 09/10/2008 07:43:50
#17 Donald.

Did you feel like stoning her?

18

Guga II,

Rockall 09/10/2008 07:44:22
#13 Lanna.

Thanks for the link.
19

,

09/10/2008 07:51:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
20

Dave,

Isle of Barra 09/10/2008 07:54:23
Why the "secret talks"? Why not "open talks"? Something to hide perhaps? Like a massive public backlash and an ousting of the SNP?
21

eric,

lothian 09/10/2008 08:09:32
Great Britain is a figment of imagination.
22

The_Reiver,

09/10/2008 08:11:44
GREAT!

Soon we will all be able to enjoy the public beheading of Salmond at Hampden Park.
23

Dave,

Isle of Barra 09/10/2008 08:14:34
eric

Whose imagination tho?
24

danielrober,

09/10/2008 08:15:26
I am a fan of free trade in the movement of goods, services and people. It makes the world a richer place. If a small percentage of the Islamic community want to live under these laws instead of current secular laws, then there is very little Scotland/UK can do. Adherence to the law is a private action backed up by occasional state enforcement.

Yet to balance out such new developments maybe we need a clause in our immigration policy, following the German model of Guest Workers. I'm not a fan of this system but it could mean people can work, live, own property and pay taxes, with out full compliance with UK law, such as divorce (outside of criminal actions of course). Yet in return there would be no right to vote. You can not vote in a country to decide the law makers and then selectively chose to ignore certain rules.

So maybe the solution here is the German method of guess workers, were these super expats can enjoy UK benefits, without voting on laws they chose not to follow. Besides I'm certain not everyone who comes here for work is looking to be a Scot or a Brit. Some are however and can enjoy full voting rights, to decide the law makers that they follow.

Maybe that's a fair compromise.
25

why can't I use my own name???,

musselburgh 09/10/2008 08:16:13
A large one to the fella who leaked this, or to the journo who stumbled across it.'Secret talks', eh?
26

carrottop,

09/10/2008 08:17:14
Go and live in a country that supports Sharia law, yet another example of a people who do not want to be Scottish yet are set on living here with their own agenda.
Any politician seen to be assisting the implementation of Sharia law should be sent packing at the ballot box, even the mentally retarded Labour voters can surely see through all this political posturing.
27

paulr,

edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:20:27
"Some defend the right of the Muslim community to rule on its own affairs"
These people come to live here or are even born here, they claim to be british or Scottish, if that is the case then they abide by Scottish Law, not some barbaric muslim kangaroo court system.
If they want to be controlled by sharia law then let them go to iran, or some other backward wilderness which has been socially destroyed by a so called islamic revolution.
WE DO NOT WANT YOUR sharia RUBBISH HERE.
28

Boy Wonder,

09/10/2008 08:20:59
Guga got it right. If the Muslims don't like our legal system ... then bu66er off to an Islamic country.

NO to two legal systems!!!
29

sam the god,

09/10/2008 08:21:07
bring back maggie
30

Douglas,

Bathgate 09/10/2008 08:33:14
John Scott, a human rights lawyer, said: "There is a place for sharia law,......... That would be in a country where an Islamic way of life is the norm.
Away with this positive discrimination!
31

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:47:18
What is all the fuss about? We are only talking about the equivalent of a Citizens Advice Bureau for Muslims.
32

nuffnuff,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:49:47
It's half-assed ideas like this that causes racial tension and divide.

33

Geedoc,

Fife 09/10/2008 09:07:31
The report tells us the "some defend the right of the Muslim community to rule on its own affairs". It would be interesting to know who the some are,and if they would defend this principle for,say,the communities of Mull,Fife or even Parkhead and Ibrox. Fairs fair after all.
34

danielrober,

09/10/2008 09:09:30
As world trade increases people are going to be spending ever greater amounts of time outside their original country (we Brits and Scots work all over the world). To expect everyone to have voting rights in a community that they may only be living in for ten years would seems to be unfair and is not something Brit/Scot expats enjoy.

But maybe 'meetings' could settle disputes in the UK between business people from Islamic countries XYZ, without a redress to the UK system. But these same business people can not be expected to have voting rights for law makers, who establish laws they do not follow.

This is the West Lothian question on steroids. Yet it is an issue that needs to be settled in the present for the future. Its also a question that can be addressed positively with many sides winning through compromise.

Maybe 'super expat' status is what is needed here. After all a percentage of their tax might be sent back as remittance to their home countries. I'm sure some countries would greatly appreciate the income. On the UK side maybe a slight reduction is taxes say a lesser NI contribution.
35

hertscot,

09/10/2008 09:16:26
#30

Nothing, absolutely NOTHING is that bad.

Completeley agree with Guga.

ONE Country, ONE People, ONE Law!!
36

scottish person,

paisley 09/10/2008 09:17:25
I dont need to add anything, Ron Reale said all that is required.
Take note Muslims!
37

steve52,

Kinfauns 09/10/2008 09:19:13
Dave from Barra. Are you typical of Labour supporters in that you cant read? No where in the article are the SNP mentioned.

One law in Scotland is enough and if these persons dont like it then they can move out double quick. They are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites....just ask them if the have TV, Radio, if they drink or sell drink etc. all things they should not have or do.

Send the lot of them to Afghanistan where they can live as they please.
38

hertscot,

09/10/2008 09:19:50
PROTEST AND SURVIVE!
39

Calvinist,

09/10/2008 09:21:40
This is entirely consistent with what one would expect from this authoritarian, reactionary government and the social conservatism that pervades its thinking. It also explains Salmond’s recent proposed dalliance with Qatar. This man will do anything to get votes and retain power. Get rid of him before he completely wreaks Scotland.
40

Richard Lionheart,

09/10/2008 09:21:58
Aamer Anwar, a Glasgow-based civil rights lawyer, said: "Those using sharia law are fully entitled to religious freedom as long as it doesn't conflict with criminal law. Because it happens to be Islamic , people jump to the conclusion it is barbaric.

"It is down to the community to decide for itself."


Mr Anwar raises an interesting point. Is it down to the community to decide for itself? If every “community” in Scotland was to exercise this same right under the guise of equality, would it not undermine the law of the land where, we all live together?

If Mr Anwar is correct then the next question would be whither the community has the right to self determination. Where do these rights to “decide for themselves” stop?

This also raises the further question of the Examples set across the World by the Islamic family, and the rights given by the Islamic family to other groups for their communities to decide for themselves. Somehow the demands made by the Islamic community and the application where there is the ability to grant appear to be somewhat at odds.

41

Stephen Cowley,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 09:31:26
What is being proposed is more like an extension of Scots law to voluntary contracts. I agree with SM that it is necessary to define "voluntary" - and I would add to do so under Scots law.

I wonder if some of the correspondents above would write in the same tone if it were a question of defending the rights of Christians in Saudi.
42

oder,

Scotland 09/10/2008 09:35:19
this would be a good time to start saving for your prayer mats! start learning your "Shahada"' will be handy to find out were Mecca is! atheists start plans to emigrate, other believers Christian /Jews as long as you accept the superiority of Islam and pay the special tax you will be allowed to live as a good second class "Dhimmi" (something short of human)any other faith run! Burka`s for all girls! Christians girls as well for not to offend the Muslim minority, the future isn't bright, it isn't orange..... its Islamic! Forward to Eurabia!
43

Venachar,

09/10/2008 09:38:39
This country is going down the tubes, rapidly.

I should have emigrated to Australia 30 years ago when I had the opportunity. Then I would not have work for thirty years, raise my kids, send them to Uni, save up for my pension. Only to have my pension funds stolen by Brown, then the value destroyed by Browns policies, the country handed over to a bunch of people who have no interest or commitment to this country because Tony Blair says we must be "Multicultural". I can't even complain about this because legislation is there which can be used to make any criticism sound racist.

Labour wonder why people are going off them at a vast rate of knot's. Unlike most people I've worked and lived in Islamic Societies for quite a lot of my working life and have always abided by that particular societies rules. I do fundamentally object when my own society is being distorted to suit the hairy fairy policies of a bunch of people who's policies appear to be routed in the flower power era of the sixties, peace and love man! These same people send our young men and women out to "Islamic" countries to bring democracy and get killed, yet at the same time hand over their homeland to a bunch of religous fanatics!

Aamer Anwar is incorrect, it is not up to "the community" to chose which "law" to follow. Everyone should follow the law of the land irrespective of their religion. Yet again Mr Anwar shows his true agenda. If Mr Anwar dislikes our society so much he should remove himself to a place more to his liking. Don't think he will somehow because if he did he would probably find himself inside a prison if he was lucky or in some unmarked grave pdq.


44

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 09:39:28
Richard Lionheart,

Don't you think that communities and families don't already decide for themselves? Many 'organised' groups of people already decide things for themselves, and are still ultimately answerable to the established courts.

For example I was at a 'Society' meeting only last week where the Treasurer was technically 'breaking the law' in the way he was paying accounts due. Yet we didn't bother the courts - the problem was sorted internally, in other words 'we decided for ourselves'. (For the record the Treasurer was just being a bit cavalier, and to protect himself he needed to operate by the law - he just needed a wake up call).

As far as I can see - that is exactly the kind of thing the so called 'Sharia courts' are doing.

We also have voluntary arbitration groups helping solve disputes between neighbors without bothering the courts - where's the problem? As with 'Sharia courts' if the participants are unhappy then they still have recourse to a lawyer and sheriff.



Don't forget that there are also huge swathes of this country where there is effectively NO law, I'm sure folk in that predicament would love the ability to 'decide for themselves'.
45

Finnzz,

09/10/2008 09:41:07
The ignorance shown by most posters on here is breathtaking.

There is only one system of Law recognised in Scotland.

If Muslims wish to be controlled by their own religeous rules and regulations and it does not conflict with Scots Law, then let them at it.

Sharia Law has the same legal standing as the local rules at your golf club.
46

Lastsocialist,

Europe 09/10/2008 09:42:54
Whatever next, a group of wifebeaters or paedophiles demanding exemption from Scottish criminal law because it offends against their community's interests? Sharia has no place in Scotland. The stupidity of opportunist politicians like Salmond over issues relating to multiculturalism beggars belief. We cannot allow fundamentalist bigots to destroy our free society just because we are frightened that they will suicide bomb our cities. The liberal cowards can all go to Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia where they can enjoy the wonderful benefits of a barbaric, medieval society that craps on gays, Jews, women and anybody who isn't a Salafist fanatic.
47

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 09:47:44
Finnzz,

At last some reason!!

48

thistle do,

here n'there 09/10/2008 09:49:46
So much for inclusion then. This will not help racial and social integration one bit. It gives fuel to the right wing BNP etc. The Muslins must compromise their ways if the expect the rest of the country to accommodate them.

Could we see separate courts for catholics or perhaps gaels or even folkids with blue eyes!


49

Zish,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 09:54:19
Sharia law is innately superior to man made law for the simple reason that it is the Law of Allah. Shariah courts in Scotland will be good for Scotland; native Scots will be able to see the justice, fairness and superiority of Islam and join us through choice.

Through Alex Salmond's enlightened guidance this country will be a beacon to the world of coexistence and righteous change; it has already begun with the inclusion of members of the Ummah in government, the start of Muslim schools and finance from our brothers in Qatar.

Well done Scotland in showing inclusivity.
50

oder,

Scotland 09/10/2008 09:56:04
50 Vincent-W,

At last some reason!

Yes Islamic! the Muslims have word for such people
useful idiots!
51

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 09/10/2008 09:57:53
There's only one law in Scotland, Scots Law, not Sharia, not UK, SCOTS LAW and thats the way it should stay simple and uncomplicated
52

common sense voice,

09/10/2008 10:00:14
well this is the price we pay for the love of curry...

I'm glad i'm getting on in life... nearer to 50 than 40!! the world is going to be a strange place in the future.

i thought when u had cancer in the foot they cut your leg off at the knee... send them packing or scare the living sh*t out of them..

u'd better... before it's too late..
53

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 10:02:01
53 oder,

I can't help thinking that sometimes your posts might partially reflect the viewpoint of a xenophobic racist.
54

notime4anovice,

glasgow 09/10/2008 10:03:16
Hopefully Alex Salmond will stop this nonsense. There's no place for sharia in Scotland.
His visit to Qatar was worrying especially with their contempt for human rights.
Anyone who has visited an Islamic country will have seen how non muslims are treated and be disgusted that we pamper to them here in the UK.
55

Zish,

09/10/2008 10:07:41
notime4anovice

Alex Salmond will help this happen. He is already advised by progressive Muslims who want Sharia. Human Rights have been defined by Allah, and that is what Shariah does, apply those rights.
56

HennyP,

09/10/2008 10:09:12
#52
Sharia law is no more "innately superior" than the laws we have at the moment.

If we are going down the "who's got better laws", it might be worth remembering the Ten Commandments from Christianity - of which many are used in our law courts every day.

Scotland is a Christian country.

57

,

09/10/2008 10:09:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
58

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 09/10/2008 10:09:41
#38 "ONE Country, ONE People, ONE Law!!"

That sounds familiar. But wasn't there something about ONE leader as well?
59

Zish,

09/10/2008 10:11:50
Henny P

The ten commandments are actually Jewish Law. They predate Christianity by a long time and were handed by Allah to Mussa (Moses).


60

John S,

09/10/2008 10:13:56
The Canadian Council of Muslim Women (CCMW)
Recommends that family matters are best settled under Canadian and Ontario family law statutes and regulations. Separate arbitration tribunals to settle family matters under Sharia/Muslim family law will ghettoize and further marginalize vulnerable women.
Sharia law is not a homogeneous civil code but rather a very complex system of Muslim jurisprudence interpreted by culturally and ethnically diverse individuals often from a patriarchal perspective. There are no norms or standards for settlements, e.g. amount or length of alimony and support payments, age of male or female children for custody awards. It is precisely the arbitrariness of these awards that will jeopardize the equality rights of Muslim women. CCMW fears that arbitration using Sharia/Muslim family law will continue to be based on a very narrow, conservative interpretation of Islam, which has already had a negative impact on some Canadian Muslim women and Muslim women world-wide.
“We are very concerned that Muslim women will see their equality rights eroded,” said Razia Jaffer, CCMW’s National President. “Canadian women have fought long and hard to win the rights that we now enjoy.”
Toronto, September 15, 2004:http://tinyurl.com/47ndh5
61

Scythia,

Alba 09/10/2008 10:29:17
Salmond is already in the hands of the Mohammidans and his party is introducing Islamic schools, has set up the so-called Scottish islamic Foundation and is a mass-immigration advocate. Any true nationalist should reject his party.

This the next phase in the process of Islamification of Scotland. Christianity and Islam cannot live peacefully side-by-side. The process should be familiar by now.


As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colourful uniqueness:

United States — Muslim 1.0%
Australia — Muslim 1.5%
Canada — Muslim 1.9%
China — Muslim 1%-2%
Italy — Muslim 1.5%
Norway — Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark — Muslim 2%
Germany — Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
Spain — Muslim 4%
Thailand — Muslim 4.6%
From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.
They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply.

France — Muslim 8%
Philippines — Muslim 5%
Sweden — Muslim 5%
Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad &Tobago — Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris –car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that off
62

It's me!,

09/10/2008 10:30:52
The Trojan horse has arrived!
63

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 10:32:02
Covert Action,

I would have thought you and oder would revel in such a description! For you and oder being called a racist or xenophobe is in no way pejorative. It is merely an accurate description of your views.

As a contrast, it would appear that if anyone disagrees with your wholesome and friendly world view then they are exhorted to 'go away and expire'.

That's quite an extreme exhortation for someone, like you, with such moderate and reasonable views.
64

JayTee,

Doonthewatter 09/10/2008 10:33:54
Maye I'm being a bit naive: but the report was all about Sharia law COURTS (i.e the administration of justice), not about a separate or parallel set of laws. I agree that Scotland cannot sustain the latter, but can anyone tell me who supervises the Sharia courts? What about its procedures and rules of evidence? Who keeps (and publishes) a record of its proceedings? Are its judges and other other oficers appointed by and responsible to the Scottish legal authorities? Who determines & approves their qualifications? If none of these questions is answered satisfactorily, and the Sharia courts are merely "informal" voluntary hearings, how can they have the "force of law"?
65

boudica,

Glasgow 09/10/2008 10:37:03
If you want to stop Wee Eck from doing this you register your protest with your Local MSP, MP , on the Scottish Ex site ..we cannot allow this to happen we cant be dragged back to the Dark Ages to appease a group that keep changing the goal posts and dont forget the resounding NO that the British people gave the Archbishop of Canterbury when he came out with his thoughts about us accepting Sharia Law in "some form" this action shows the truth of the Natz Party and their Islamic Brethern who can wave Kalashnikofs about and they only get a slap on the wrist ..Now we know the reasons why
66

Covert Action,

09/10/2008 10:37:56
Not pejorative perhaps, but the first port of call when you and your ilk have their "I'd like to teach the world to sing" opinions called into question. Shut down the discussion by deeming your opponent beyond the pale. An old political marxist debating trick effortlessly transposed into the cultural marxism adhered to by the so-called left of today.
67

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 09/10/2008 10:38:01
#64

Interesting cultural absorption theory. At what percentage do they start singing religious songs at football matches?
68

bluehead,

edinburgh 09/10/2008 10:38:38
who would ever have believed what is happening in the country,the whole of Britain seems to be swallowed up by foreigners, we have madmen, who should never be allowed to leave their padded cell, running this country,
who are responsible for this appalling situation,
just try going to a foreign person's country and try to apply our laws and you will soon be shown the door,
can anyone explain how such madness has descended on what once was the greatest city in the world.
69

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 09/10/2008 10:41:11
#67

Why should it be any different from the way the Church of Scotland courts operate, or the way Kosher foods are legally authenticated, or even the way the Scottish Football Association can levy fines on clubs and players?
70

Zish,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 10:43:17
Scythia:

I don't know what you are complaining about. The ultimate goal of Islam is to establish Shariah Law all over the world. We do not hide this or attempt this surreptitiously. It is stated clearly in The Qur'an and the Hadiths.

There is no Trojan, or if you are wanting to be accurate, Greek, horse.

There has been no subterfuge. When the UK government invited Muslims here the Qur'an had been around for 1300 years and was clear for anyone to see what Muslims are, what our religion is and how it does it.

In the 19th century, William Muir, an Edinburgh University professor explained it all in detail to the extent that it was he who first coined the phrase 'satanic verses'.

You invited us in. When you did, you invited our religion and Scotland and the UK ceased to be Christian countries and became something else.

If you did not want our religion here, you should not have invited us.
71

invictager,

Kent 09/10/2008 10:46:43
#48
Since when did stoning women to death for adultery or banning them from school or owning a car NOT conflict with Scots law.

Likewise Aamer Anwar, are you claiming the above practies are not barbaric.

Lets never forget he old favourite "when in Rome". It makes a lot of sense.
72

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 10:47:54
Covert Action,

As opposed to the old right wing trick of killing anyone who disagrees with you?

Please tell me what is my ilk? So far your description is miles off the truth, but then precisely defining people by racial or other characteristics is another common fearture of the far right.
73

invictager,

Kent 09/10/2008 10:51:37
#74
Why is it then that when Saudi Arabia and others "invited" skilled westerners to come develop their oil fields they did not "invite" christianity along with them. Or have I missed all the cathedrals in Ryadh.

It seems that only we "infidels" are happy to let others practice their own faith without fear that everyone will suddenly be converted.
74

Covert Action,

09/10/2008 10:54:55
Vincent W

Sure, Stalin never hurt a hair on anyone's head. Pol Pot neither. As for Mao, quite the humanitarian.

As for you, cultural marxist, useful idiot and, with a name like Vincent...
75

Zish,

09/10/2008 10:57:05
When Saudi Arabia invites skilled workers, they are invited as that, guest workers.

The UK invited us as immigrants with the same rights as you.

Saudi operates under Sharia, the UK under man made law. Do not complain when your own man made law gets you in a mess.
76

Brian Ferrari,

09/10/2008 10:58:24
I wonder if Muslims would have any to Jewish courts being set up in Scotland?

Maybe we should have Christian courts too, in fact you'd probably need different courts for each denomination.

What a load of tosh!
77

invictager,

Kent 09/10/2008 11:01:10
#79
Thought you may have a glib answer.

It seems tolerance is a one way street.
78

WL,

livingston 09/10/2008 11:04:48
If muslims want to be tried under sharia laws they should not come to Scotland.
79

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 09/10/2008 11:06:30
And let us not forget that CANADA, in its infinite wisdom, banned these Sharia courts from our country.

They would be a threat to Canadian law as established over the centuries and a threat to peace and good government and the administration of CANADIAN law.
80

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 11:09:50
Covert Action,

You are absolutely right in highlighting the activities of Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao. In my view all extremists are prone to making poor quality decisions.

Don't make assumptions, chummy, you'll only make an ass of yourself. Culural marxist - what sort of assumed claptrap is that?

Please tell me what is the problem with a good white Christian name like Vincent. Associations with the name have been in my family for generations and I'm proud of that - but clearly you have an issue. Out with it man.

By the way why don't you post under your real name?
81

Venachar,

09/10/2008 11:13:00
Zish is either a wummer or telling the truth!

In either case both are just as frightening, you make up your own mind.


82

hertscot,

09/10/2008 11:13:08
#79,

"The UK invited us as immigrants with the same rights as you"

That doesn't mean you had to come.

That doesn't mean your special.

That doesn't mean you can ask for the laws to be changed so that they fit in with your religion.

Migration is not a crime, but the onus of conforming is with the migrant, if you do not like the laws of the country, you shouldn't be there.

Irrespective of what Islam, Christianity, Hinduism and Judaism want, they should not be allowed to usurp the law of a country for their own gain, greed and vanity.
83

Resolutions,

09/10/2008 11:20:23
Earlier several people brought up that Independence supporters were silent.

Right I am an independence supporter and am totally opposed to this. Everyone who resides within a country is answerable to the laws of that country. If you do not like it, you do not have to stay - here you have the freedom to go. Break the law and we have the freedom to ask you to leave - or make you.

#79 Claiming one 'faiths' laws are God given, shows little tolerance of other faiths who also have 'God given' laws. Who gave one faith the right to claim that theirs are The Only Ones?

Like everyone else, I have the freedom to express my views to my MSP, MP Concillor et al and will.

The revelation that these 'talks' are secret or behind the scenes makes me wonder what happened to 'consultation' which ALL faiths and indeed none, should embrace. Get what is being proposed out in the open NOW and let is see what is what. Back room stuff is from a Medieval era, hopefully long since gone. Insist this is open NOW.
84

Covert Action,

09/10/2008 11:26:41
Sorry Vincent, got to dash. Later
85

oder,

Scotland 09/10/2008 11:30:04
56 Vincent-W,

that's OK!

I would be quite happy happy for you explain that in detail some time there is no need to have two systems of law maybe you haven't noticed that the Muslims don't have two systems of law nor do they allow co-existence on equal terms Islamic society, for example!
westerners can work in Saudi but are not allowed to openly pratice their faith is this equality co existence?

as poster 52 said

"Sharia law is innately superior to man made law for the simple reason that it is the Law of Allah.

is Scots law man made law? it is according to Muslims and therefore inferior! co-existence with inferior peoples were has that happened in the Islamic world? any paradise on earth you care to mention, the Koran commands that they make everyone equal either by killing or converting or subjugating to Islam them. I don't hate Muslims, however I am opposed to Islam no problem with any other faiths or atheists.

get above name calling get out your Koran I will be happy to debate with you!

62 Zish,09/10/2008 10:11:50
Henny P

The ten commandments are actually Jewish Law. They predate Christianity by a long time and were handed by Allah to Mussa (Moses

yes! and Christianity predates Islam by a 1000 years or so!







86

Dragonhead,

Dalian,China 09/10/2008 11:34:02
Interesting to see that some of you are doing a Rip Van Winkle at last.TimW1234,Ottowa. My constant comments on this subject appear not to be inconsequential after all, berk!
87

Zish,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 11:37:15
heartscot,

You said: "That doesn't mean you can ask for the laws to be changed so that they fit in with your religion."

You are wrong. This is exacly what your man made law allows us to do.

This is a democracy and anyone or any group can ask for laws to be changed.

This is what we are doing; engaging in the democratic process. For you to be surprised that Muslims would act democratically ( i.e. within the law) to make the country in which we live more Islamic speaks volumes. The western world was so arrogant it thought by living here we would stop being Muslim and become secular or Christian.

By 2050 the UK, if it still exists other than on the pages of history, will be majority Muslim by population and by 2070, majority muslim by number of votes.

Get used to it.
88

oder,

09/10/2008 11:46:20
By 2050 the UK, if it still exists other than on the pages of history, will be majority Muslim by population and by 2070, majority Muslim by number of votes.

Get used to it.


91 Zish,Edinburgh

that for backing up my post at 45!

well Vincent! whats racist about it? Zish and are in agreement on this point! is Zish racist too?
89

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 11:46:46
"Sharia courts set to bring Muslim law to bear in Scottish cities" - this must never happen. I'm no racist or bigot, but why is this country bending over backwards to accommodate these people in every way? If they want their own laws, then they can go and live in a country which is ruled by those laws. If any non-muslim were to attempt to introduce their laws into a muslim country, guess what?

And while we're on it, why is there a "National Black Police Association" when there is no corresponding "National White Police Association"? Or would that offend as well?
90

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 11:51:19
I wouldnt worry too much about Sharia law or an Islamic take over of the West as its already dominated by a very vocal and active Jewish Yiddish horde.
And they will simply not let it happen as can be seen by the very vitriolic postings on these blogs whenever Islam is mentioned.
So sleep comfortably under yer yiddish blanket of benign and benevolant subjegation.
91

Cappo Del Monte,

09/10/2008 11:52:04
#91

I doubt it would ever happen if it did the BNP would be in power by then
Am just glad I will still be able to handle the old AK to help fight for my rights, beliefs and country.
It isnt racist, its fighting for the rights and laws of my country
92

oder,

Scotland 09/10/2008 11:52:25
Zish sorry! line 5 should read thanks for backing up my post at 45.
93

Resolutions,

09/10/2008 11:55:25
#91 Democratic processes do not include secret talks. They are open for scrutiny.

No-one has asked you to be less Moslem or to embrace another faith. You have been asked to live by and support the laws of the country in which you freely live.

Democratically everyone within that country has the right to ask for law ammendments. Right it could be, and probably will be, that what you want is rejected openly and freely.

Nor have you addresses the fact that other faiths have 'God Given' laws too. Tolerance?

Get used to that!
94

I.J,

The Diggers 09/10/2008 11:56:06
Sharia Law is superior because it is the law of Allah?

Jeez.

I'm going to petition for courts to practice the law of Desperate Dan.

He's a fictional character too.

All crimes punishable by the removal of Cow Pie rights!!
95

Venachar,

09/10/2008 11:56:28
Zish, ever heard of sterilisation? Don't suppose you have a "law" on that in your book.

Oh yes, mentioning books, what happend to the acceptance of "people of the book" ie followers of the earlier prophets.
96

Ah Bristo,

09/10/2008 11:58:19
This is Scotland & we have a SCOTTISH legal system. If Muslims don't like it they can bugg3r off to somewhere that does have it. - So much for integration eh?
97

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 09/10/2008 11:58:31
There should not be a two-tier legal system, this will only continue the dangerous 'us and them' whispers that lead to doorsteps of the BNP and their ilk. Its bad enough with the SNP and their 'us and them' referring to the English... hmmm perhaps there is something in common here.
98

Scythia,

Alba 09/10/2008 12:00:46
Zish , Thanks for confirmimg Muslims want to implose sharia law in Scotland. You first paragraph is quite profound.

"..The ultimate goal of Islam is to establish Shariah Law all over the world.."

Do you agree with second part of my polemic ?

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris –car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats ( Amsterdam - Mohammed cartoons).

Guyana — Muslim 10%
India — Muslim 13.4%
Israel — Muslim 16%
Kenya — Muslim 10%
Russia — Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:

Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:
Bosnia — Muslim 40%
Chad — Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

Albania — Muslim 70%
Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
Sudan — Muslim 70%
After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:
Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
Egypt — Muslim 90%
Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
Iran — Muslim 98%
Iraq — Muslim 97%
Jordan — Muslim 92%
Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan — Muslim 97%
Palestine — Muslim 99%
Syria — Muslim 90%
Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam’ — the Islamic House of Peace — there’s supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan — Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia — Muslim 100%
Somalia — Muslim 100%
Yemen — Muslim 99.9%
Of course, that’s not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.




99

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 12:02:18
92 oder,

The road to Emmaus is obviously still used!
100

JCA REID,

Annan 09/10/2008 12:03:47
It's the thin end of the wedge!! Try & set up a Scottish/European court in there countries....& as for a church.
I've sp[oken to Muslims of differing nationalities & they've said, spitting in my face, ".....your laws don't apply to us! And we will take over and you will then obey our laws."
& these were not militants!!!
101

Zish,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 12:09:21
Resolutions:

Other religions have Allah given laws that were then corrupted by their priests and Kings. That is why Allah sent us his messenger (pbuh): we are tolerant of the people of the book because they can not be blamed for the corruption of their past priests and kings. That is why Allah commanded us to be tolerant of Christians and Jews.

Islam is the perfect religion, unchanged since its delivery. His Shariah is there not only to guide us, but to preserve that which is already under Islam and expand into that which is not.

And Scythia: Muslims do not kill for bloodlust. As the Qur'an says, if you kill one innocent person it is as if you killed the whole of mankind.
102

Brodric,

09/10/2008 12:12:25
First Question - who is funding this? Are the government or local authorities providing grants? If so, I protest.

Second Question - are we going to give every group of immigrants this right?

6 - 10 Ron - this is what we should be saying in the UK not just Scotland.

No 10 - Proud to have Scots Blood. One of our close family friends, an eminent professional Egyptian, who is Coptic and was involved in politics, warned us about this kind of slow erosion of political power over the Muslims, which I finally started to believe during the Salman Rushdie scandal. This friend told us how the Egyptians had welcomed Islam and allowed Muslims to worship on their holy days. Now there is a Muslim majority and the Christian copts are lucky if they get the day off work to celebrate Christmas or Easter, never mind Sundays off for going to church.

I am not xenophobic. But WHEN IN ROME DO AS THE ROMANS DO.

I want ALL immigrants to:

..... Be governed by ONE law - the law of THIS land, not their former land, which they chose to leave. If their children are born here, that was the choice of the parents. They have the choice to return to their native land. Being born here makes them British-born but doesn't mean they have the RIGHT to CHANGE our native culture. That they enrich it is a different thing entirely, and they have the FREEDOM to believe in their own religion here, something that is often difficult if we go to their native countries.
..... SPEAK OUR LANGUAGE. It is insulting to expect US to CHANGE and to be involved in huge costs for translations and interpretation.
..... NOT to have the RIGHT to immediate benefits in this country. They should have a qualifying period PRIOR to being allowed to claim.

One of my kids made an interesting comment. "I've never felt racist, but all of these inequalities are going to make people become racist or at least not to have sympathy with immigrants" HOW TRUE!!!!


103

HennyP,

09/10/2008 12:16:08
#89 thank you - you said what I wanted to but of course I got it a little muddled...
104

Brodric,

09/10/2008 12:20:41
106 Zish - There is no such thing as a perfect religion, because all religions are interpreted by people who are less than God.

Unfortunately, that also, by virtue of the fact that he was lesser than God, includes Mohammed. He was a messenger.

That there is a schism in Islam (Sunni and Shi'ite) of which both factions have different views on the leadership and interpretation of the Qu'ran, with many groups of Shia believing that the sixth pillar of Islam is Jihad (not accepted as a pillar by Sunni).

Which version of Islam is, in your opinion, perfect then?















105

Zish,

09/10/2008 12:21:30
Broderic

You said: "Being born here makes them British-born but doesn't mean they have the RIGHT to CHANGE our native culture."

Your native culture is democratic and as a result, fluid. It has, can and will always change. By inviting my ancestors here you accepted that change would happen.

We have every right to work within the existing system to generate any change we want; we may not get that change, but we can push for it. That is what being British / Scottish is. Is it not rather ironic that I should be lecturing you on democratic process?
106

Between the lines,

Scotland 09/10/2008 12:22:49
Presumably our fair-minded muslim brothers will have no issues going forward then with the lifting of the ban on the ringing of Christian church bells in their countries and in having to treat women as human beings (as is the common law in all civilised countries)? DREAM ON.....
107

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 12:26:56
110

You obviously have no idea what the word democratic means or the dogma behind it.
It is all about consensus its not about imposing one set of values over another it is the purest form of socialism. What you advocate is totalitarinism.
108

hertscot,

09/10/2008 12:27:10
#106,

There is no perfect religion, their are no god given laws, every law has been written by man, the people of the book you are so tolerant of filled two towers in the US, filled trains and buses in London, use the market places in Iraq and Afganistan along with Muslims (or are they the wrong kind of Muslim?). If Islam is unchanged from its' delivery, why is there maore than one approach by its' worshippers. And you want to preserve 10th century thinking and life to comply with shariah, so thats, no modern agriculture, guns, bombs, planes, trains, automobiles, tv's radio, computers and death to all non muslims (also in the Koran).

I will never get used to that and neither will the majority of your fellow Muslims (if indeed you are one, which I doubt.

"if you kill one innocent person it is as if you killed the whole of mankind" - YOU ALREADY HAVE, and along with any respect for the culture and traditions of Islam.

You, GET USED TO IT, you will never be universally accepted as anything more than fanatical crackpots and murderers, to kill in the name of a god, is a deplorable and cowardly crime that actually has no reason, and nothing to do with any imaginary friend.

And, people wonder why so many are now agnostic/atheist.

109

,

09/10/2008 12:30:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
110

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 12:31:46
106

There is no perfect religion all religions are manifestations of faith manufactured by imperfect beings not Gods.
111

Alan B,

09/10/2008 12:34:36
It would better if the article actually had some depth to it and explained what was going on rather than trying to create knee jerk reactions and pander to anti muslim feeling.

What exactly happens in England where this seems to exist according to the article? Many posters have critised the scottish government but the article does not say the government has been involved in this at all.

It is interesting if you substitute muslim for catholic. Should catholics go back to ireland or rome if they do not accept protestant culture etc. ie should they be told to leave scotland despite being born here because catholics wanted their own schools.

I do not agree with having 2 parallel legal systems but many of the posts do seem far to sectarian.

Also many seem to ignorantly group muslims as one. Just like christains in this country some are religious some not. Some abit. Some like catholics may go regularly to the chapel but pick and choose other bits like contraception.
112

Cappo Del Monte,

09/10/2008 12:37:25
#90 & 114

Yahoo get the handbags out ladies, although I am backing Canada as they are bigger, although there are more Chinese ;-)
#110
Some may have been invited here, but probably about 50% are illegal or related to illegal immigrants.
Any way didnt you mis spell your name it should be a P as the front not a z
113

Zish,

09/10/2008 12:38:33
Suchaparcelofrogues.

You said: "What you advocate is totalitarinism."

What I advocate is democratic change. How can democratic change be totalitarianism, unless of course the population votes for it.

So tell me, what exactly do you do when a democratic society votes to be no longer a democratic society? Do you apply draconian undemocratic laws reminiscent of a totalitarian regime. Are there, once again, going to be gas chambers in Europe?
114

Cappo Del Monte,

09/10/2008 12:38:35
#116
Alan, its just the usual hootsman article winding people up, they normally have 1 a month, no doubt the thread will be closed soon
115

Cappo Del Monte,

09/10/2008 12:41:14
"So tell me, what exactly do you do when a democratic society votes to be no longer a democratic society"
Surley by having a democratic vote, its still a democratic society, they still have the power to vote, if not its a dictatorship, I think its time for the pub
116

hertscot,

09/10/2008 12:44:56
Alan B,

This is not sectarian posting:

If religions and the religious wish people to accept them, they should not believe they have greater rights than anyone else, they should not be trying to impose there dogma on non believers, they should recieve no state recognition, other than the right to practice their faith unhindered (as long as it does not conflict with the law), they should not be specifically represented in law making bodies (e.g. House of Lords, they should not be allowed to schools which are primarily for the indoctrination of children.

If your catholic your catholic, muslim =muslim, jew = jew, protestant=protestant, that's why posters consider all muslims the same, not sectarianism.
117

Calum Crubag,

09/10/2008 12:45:45
NO.

ALL religious law is barbaric. We wouldn't let the Wee Frees have their way, so tell the Muslims to give up their barbaric dark-age superstitions.
118

Zish,

09/10/2008 12:45:52
Cappo:

Do you mean like in Germany in 1934?
119

MichelleLucy,

Airdrie 09/10/2008 12:46:00
I've heard it all now. So, if i go and live in an islamic country, can i live under Scottish law? I doubt that would ever happen... I just can't believe that we have turned so PC that we are going to let our country go and kiss their as..s as we let them take it. We must be a laughing stock among the people who can't wait to take away everything our ancestors fought for and make our country their own. We are being pushed out and are not even allowed to say anything about it because that would make us racist. The only way you can have an opinion these days is if you come from a minority group. Then you can say what you like and get away with it. Before we know it, Scotland will have no Scot's and who can blame us?
120

notime4anovice,

glasgow 09/10/2008 12:46:25
#113 hertscot

The 'people of the book' are christians and jews. I think you misinterpreted that bloke zish.
I suspect zish is a fake anyway. His answers are meant to wind us up.
Muslims pray to a stone so I don't see why he can criticise us for believing in a bible.
121

Ewan M,

09/10/2008 12:47:15
Why do we put up with this? Why is Alex Salmond not standing up for Soctland this time? Remember this in Glenrothes.
122

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 12:47:15
118

"What I advocate is democratic change."
How is democratic change possible without consensus??
And if change is advocated from a democratic status quo then how can that change possibly be democratic?
How can you move towards democracy by moving away from democracy?
123

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 12:50:11
124

If you go and live in another Christian country you still cant live under Scottish law.
124

hertscot,

09/10/2008 12:50:21
#125,
yes, Zish is a fake or d1ckhead or both?
125

malcyh,

09/10/2008 12:50:54
Presume that the Islamic nations will let us operate under Scots Law should we reside there then?
126

hertscot,

09/10/2008 12:51:31
Re muslims praying to a stone, I used to pray that I would get stoned.
127

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 12:54:43
Alan B and Cappo Del Monte,

I think you've got the gist of it.

1. Superficial article.
2. Kneejerk reactions from poorly informed folk.

It's interesting to look at articles written in the Scotsman/Herald on the same news item. The responses on there respective forums are set by the tone of the article. That is so called free thinking people are typically only reacting to things.



Back to the topic - I don't see the problem here. The law of the land is always going to be the final arbitor. Any other kind of 'court' or 'tribunal' or 'hearing' can give advice or rulings, but the ultimate recourse is to the Courts of Law.

For those of you with concerns about people being frightened off proper legal recourse by Sharia courts - don't kid yourself that the same thing doesn't happen in every day in Scottish situations. Only yesterday I heard of a friend not going to the authorities to report an unlawful activity, because she was frightened on being dubbed a 'grass'. She has already been jostled in the street and 'warned' by the alleged criminal - and not a muslim in sight.
128

Cappo Del Monte,

09/10/2008 12:55:12
#131
the herbal kind or the granite kind?
129

oder,

Scotland 09/10/2008 12:56:02
well you what to discuss history ? ok! what battle do you what to discuss the Roman battle of 150 BCE or there abouts or the Arab in 637 AD

only Islam today supports religious domination in the name of their religion, some cracking stories in the Koran when it comes to killing non believers give it a read.

I asked you previously about91 Zish,Edinburgh

well Vincent! whats racist about it? Zish and I are in agreement on this point! is Zish racist too?

care to answer?
130

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 12:57:25
Calum Crubag - rubbish
131

Cappo Del Monte,

09/10/2008 12:59:48
#132
TY
Its doubtful it would every happen but if it did.
The people would kick off, it is already happening in middle England with them thurning to the BNP, sad but true, and there are a lot more out there ready to vote for them or just scared at present.
Articles like this and people not wanting to mix into society and want their own wee state within another propagte the ill feeling.
I would say the clock may be ticking
132

Cappo Del Monte,

09/10/2008 13:02:52
oops propagate

damn beer making the keys sticky ;-)
133

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 09/10/2008 13:04:06
Nooooooooo!!!!!!!!!
134

Eric D,

Glasgow(istan) 09/10/2008 13:04:49
There is NO confusion , Sharia courts are coming .Crypto (Sharia) courts will operate in Edinburgh/Glasgow next year. Presumably with the go ahead of the traitors , Brown and Al Salmound.

THE TIMES take on it reported last month.

"The government has quietly sanctioned the powers for sharia judges to rule on cases ranging from divorce and financial disputes to those involving domestic violence."

"Rulings issued by a network of five sharia courts are enforceable with the full power of the judicial system, through the county courts or High Court. "

"It has now emerged that sharia courts with these powers have been set up in London, Birmingham, Bradford and Manchester with the network’s headquarters in Nuneaton, Warwickshire. Two more courts are being planned for Glasgow and Edinburgh. "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4749183.ece


A sharia court coming to neibourhood near you soon. Have a nice day !
135

notime4anovice,

glasgow 09/10/2008 13:05:17
#131 hertscot

You would probably get stoned if you got stoned in saudi arabia.
Unless you converted to islam and prayed to a stone in which case they would probably just cut your hands off or something.
Bloke on telly at the moment who got 2 arms glued back on so maybe it wouldn't be too bad. Put them in a cooler box until you got home.
136

oder,

Scotland 09/10/2008 13:05:55
133 Cappo Del Monte

actually! its a black meteorite.
137

danbob,

09/10/2008 13:08:58
A couple of leading FBI investigators recently visited a north of England town with senior scotland yard officers as part of a co-operation exercise regarding islamic terrorism. It is widely reported that these investigators were very concerned. One of them it is reported as saying. "This is very frightening. What you have here is a mini Pakistan. This would never be allowed in the USA". When the FBI make claims like this you have to ask the question, "What are we sleep walking into"?
138

MichelleLucy,

Airdrie 09/10/2008 13:10:13
128

And i wouldn't expect to. That's the point i was trying to make. If you go and live in another country because you want to be there, then you live by their laws. Why do people want to live here and not fully integrate? I just don't get it. If you don't like us or how we live... Go!
139

Covert Action,

09/10/2008 13:11:49
Vincent W

Having a bad day at work ?
Why don't you go home ?
140

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 13:13:52
142

"This would never be allowed in the USA". When the FBI make claims like this you have to ask the question, "What are we sleep walking into"?"

I think this speaks volumes with regards to the so called democratic state of the USA than anything else.
It isnt a case of what we are sleep walking into its a case of starting to wake up to where we are now.
141

oder,

Scotland 09/10/2008 13:14:28
140 notime4anovice,glasgow 09

Bloke on telly at the moment who got 2 arms glued back on so maybe it wouldn't be too bad. Put them in a cooler box until you got home.

not to sure that would help! in Saudi were they cut of hands they are not allowed to fit artificial ones
142

Zish,

09/10/2008 13:15:04
The fact is that the Muslims worship nothing - none - but One God. The Muslims do not worship the Cube nor the Black Stone. The Ka’abah in Makkah was built by Prophet Adam. God commanded Prophet Ibraheem to reconstruct it.

Allah gives this answers to notime4anovice and hertscot:

Behold! We showed the site to Ibraheem, of the Sacred House saying: “Associate no partners with Me and purify My House for those who compass it round or stand upright in prayers, or bow or prostrate themselves in worship.
[The Holy Qur’an, Surah 22:26]
143

Leadership,

London 09/10/2008 13:20:23
Zish, #74

"I don't know what you are complaining about. The ultimate goal of Islam is to establish Shariah Law all over the world. We do not hide this or attempt this surreptitiously. It is stated clearly in The Qur'an and the Hadiths."

A rare touch of honesty from an Islamist. Also remember that their "good books" permit them to LIE in order to push for their Islamist beliefs.

So they will use our democratic freedoms in order to destroy democracy. Democracy has no place in their medieval nonsense. The will of Allah rules, OK? Whatever that is.

"There has been no subterfuge. When the UK government invited Muslims here the Qur'an had been around for 1300 years and was clear for anyone to see what Muslims are, what our religion is and how it does it."

This contention on what Muslims are, is actually not yet a settled view amongst Muslim scholars. But so far, and I have been watching this for some time, there is no concerted effort by authoritative Muslims to dismiss the caliphate/world domination/end democracy business. And "how it does it" is to LIE. Quite simply.

As for this:

"You invited us in. When you did, you invited our religion and Scotland and the UK ceased to be Christian countries and became something else. If you did not want our religion here, you should not have invited us."

We now invite you to leave. In fact, if it were up to me, we'd insist.
144

notime4anovice,

glasgow 09/10/2008 13:23:17
#147 zish

ok so you can google like the clappers. Doesn't mean you're not fake.

#146 oder

you would just have to wave goodbye to your hand then.
Sad for ex ambitextrous folks.
145

IainA,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 13:26:16
hasn't there been a legal precedent for Jewish courts in the UK for many years now? Or, if there isn't then there's a working arrangement where the findings of religious based courts, while not legally binding are given a degree of influence with the formal jurisprudence system.

I disagree with both of these approaches, jewish, Sharia, Catholic, Protestant, whatever. The law should take no account of religion, or we'll be back to the protestant church courts of 17th century scotland, where you could be fined or imprisoned for missing Sunday Service. Religious courts of whatever stripe are unrational by their very nature, preferring adherence to relious tenets rather than legal rules.

Would we also consider for example, polish law being applied to british born children of Polish immigrants? Of course not, but religious law is somehow different. Why? because it has multiple nationalities? because it is somehow of greater importance than other countries laws? Or is it because tolerating, or encouraging it is perceived as multicultural?
146

Eric D,

Glasgow 09/10/2008 13:28:20
The following is an extract from an artcle that appeared in the Muslim Weekly regarding the sharia court under discussion.

"Cases already heard in Nuneaton include an inheritance dispute between three sisters and their two brothers, a divorce and a neighbour dispute."

"In the inheritance case, the men were given double their sisters’ inheritance."

http://www.themuslimweekly.com/newsdetails/fullstoryview.aspx?NewsID=BAA9F82DA62E054E46ECD97A&MENUID=HOMENEWS&DESCRIPTION=Front%20Page%20News

You will need to login to view the article.
147

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 13:30:01
148

There are numourous quotations in the Bible which states that Christianity should be brought to the whole world by force. Could the invasions of Iraq and Afganistan with the proposals of further invasion into Iran not be taken as a Christian crusade against Islam?
148

Luke Skywalker,

here 09/10/2008 13:30:13
132 You are astute in your comment. The threat by a thug to beat up a woman who disagrees is identical to a Sharia Court. Same logic.
149

Zish,

09/10/2008 13:37:38
148

There is no need to lie. When Islamic armies took Al Quds and The Dome was built, the text around the top on a great golden dome that no-one in the city could miss it spelled it out. There was no lie, it was there in gold for all to see.

I was born here. I have the same rights as you to be here. I have the same right to participate in the democratic process, freedom of speech assembly and association. There is no need to lie.

150

danbob,

09/10/2008 13:39:34
152# Can you tell me which books verse and chapters of the bible your claims are in please.
151

Proud2Be,

Scotland 09/10/2008 13:40:18
Cooey duckies!!

sick of all those nasty judges with their dreadful wigs and bad dress sense!! Can't be arsed, pun intended, with these badly decorated scottish courts!

then why not head on over to the "Queens" Court. There you will be met by well dressed manicured individual who will be happy to offer you legal servicing from a well stocked menu of the latest trendy laws!!

And don't forget when the current laws become "so last season" for you just tell "Amber" our 6'4" butch looking secretary and you can pick some new ones!!

Mummy's Boy's Court - brought to you by the people who brought you the "Madness Of the Mullahs Courts"


The solution is simple for these people get on with our way of life or get out!!
152

James Donald,

Newbridge 09/10/2008 13:41:27
The most important sentence in this article is the last one "Attempts to set up sharia courts in Canada in 2005 were abandoned after protests". Actively oppose any move to bring sharia law courts to Scotland and oppose any politicians or others (such as Aamer Anwar) who would support such a move.
153

oder,

Scotland 09/10/2008 13:43:09
147 Zish

We showed the site to Ibraheem, who`s is "We"? if Allah is talking in the singular? or is this a mistake in the Koran?
154

williamx,

Canada 09/10/2008 13:52:07
Time to ban Muslim immigration into the UK. Their birth rate is 4 times yours so they will outbreed you and take over in about 3 generations. Only ladedahs would countenance and encourage immigrants whose religious dogma is to kill non Muslims (that means you). Of course your politicians are only looking for future voters so don't expect much from them. They are busy with finance 101. History 401 doesn't cut it.
155

hertscot,

09/10/2008 13:52:43
#154 Zish,

The right of free speech,assembly and association are not really welcomed under sharia, reference Afganistan under Taliban rule. And you obviously do not cherish these freedoms as you would seek to overthrow the law in which they are enshrined, that's the law of humankind not gods.
This is why these posts contain rather vocal opposition, since most of us don't care who the other worships, but you'll really have to fight to take away our freedoms, so just live with the concept, and keep your outdated dogma to yourself, we've had to live with the overriding influence of one Judaistic cult for two millenia, we really don't need another to replace it.
156

Number 6,

Germany 09/10/2008 13:53:16
This is the result of PC madness in Englandshire. They have no real sense of identity and saw nothing wrong in these courts being set up. It has resulted in cases of stabbings being resolved with compensation payments to the victim.

The SNP are our only hope of keeping this poison out of Scotland. This was brought in UNDER LABOUR !!!!!!!.

The "UNION", the biggest danger to Scottish identity.
Those trying to blame the SNP here are highlighting their ignorance.
157

likkitysplit,

whats going on here 09/10/2008 13:54:51
Ive just come across the article and posts and cant believe the panic that this issue always sparks off.
I think everyone should just calm the fok down.

It gives the impression of being insecure about our own democratic system. These people wanting sharia law have got no chance. They make statements precisely to provoke such panic in the safe knowledge that there are people that fall for it every time.
The muslim chiefs in the article are confirming that muslims arent interested. Of course they arent, thats why they live in this country.

158

Alan B,

09/10/2008 13:55:02
#121 hertscot

I am not against people being critical of proposals in this area. Although as i said it is unclear from this article what is really under discussion. What I was against was the article trying to create a knee jerk reaction of muslim bashing. We can see that from may posts some which border on the hysterical.

"If religions and the religious wish people to accept them, they should not believe they have greater rights than anyone else, they should not be trying to impose there dogma on non believers, they should recieve no state recognition, other than the right to practice their faith unhindered (as long as it does not conflict with the law), they should not be specifically represented in law making bodies (e.g. House of Lords, they should not be allowed to schools which are primarily for the indoctrination of children."

Do not disagree with you. But that is not the country we live in currently. We have an established church with a monarchy that refuses catholics. And we have religous schools for some but not others.

I agree completely about not having religious schools but you cannot allow it for only some, and then not expect those that are being discrimiated against not the feel agrieved and campaign for change.

In a democracy I see no problem with having discussion round issues like this and how we best can integrate. It is far better to discuss issues and try and understand each others point of view. That does not mean that you submit to someone elses view. The problem i see with this thread is the anti muslim view if an issue is raised and discussed. There is a difference between rejecting an idea and saying Scotland will not longer exist and people born here should go and live in Afganastan etc.

"If your catholic your catholic, muslim =muslim, jew = jew, protestant=protestant, that's why posters consider all muslims the same"

I disagree with that. All religions have people who are more religious that others, all have bampots.
159

hertscot,

09/10/2008 13:55:11
oder,

I think the "WE" probably refers to Allah, God, Jehova, Thor, Ra, Zeus and the rest of the temple building committee.
160

Eric D,

Glasgow 09/10/2008 13:55:17
There’s an old Arab proverb that states: "Once the camel’s head is inside the tent, the whole body is certain to follow."
161

Zish,

09/10/2008 13:55:33
Convention in the Qur'an uses the plural when speaking of Allah, and a similar construct is used in the Bible, although 4th century Christians used this as a basis for arguing in favor of the existence of the Trinity.

A similar or more affectacious version is used by Queen Elizabeth II or as we call her up here, Queen Elizabeth at Christmas on the telly. It could aslo be a grammatical construct similar to: "If I were...." as opposed to the more logical: "If I was...."

However, my 7th century Arabic grammar is not that good. You could just Google it though......
162

Alan B,

09/10/2008 13:55:44
cont... Some are just born tht religion and not really followers. Would we as "christains" liked to be classified as like the wee frees etc or some other devoit sect or freeks. If you had an opinion poll of muslims in scotland how many would agree with this idea.

Also lets face it lets say some sort of rules were brought in round some muslim marriage etc. What would it really matter to the rest of us. (not that i think that would be a good idea).

163

Alan B,

09/10/2008 13:59:12
#165 Eric D

Dont take the h u m p.
164

danielrober,

09/10/2008 14:00:15
# Zish

I do not think you are Islamic. Your views are written without feelings or the context of the guys i know who follow this religion. If you are Islamic then i suspect that you are a new convert.

What i actually think is that your a member of some extreme group pushes an anti-immigration point of view. So your just pretending to be what you are not.

If you are Islamic, what direction have you laid your pay mat in?
165

hertscot,

09/10/2008 14:02:25
# 169 if Zish is Islamic, I'm a Hindu.
166

Zish,

09/10/2008 14:04:06
danielrober:

I don't have a pay mat.
167

Covert Action,

09/10/2008 14:05:45
well, all zish needs to do to become a mohammedan is recite the appropriate bit of doggerel confirming Mohammed in his own insanity. Easily done. The problem is if he decides to change his mind. Then he'll get his head to play with.
168

danbob,

09/10/2008 14:07:56
Zish#
What did Muhammad do to the jewish tribe of Koraiza,?
169

sam the god,

09/10/2008 14:12:56
Maybe the rivers of blood statement from Enoch Powell will come to fruition I for one would like to be given a right to vote on whether Sharia law can be introduced to Scotland.
170

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 09/10/2008 14:13:15
what a fooking joke this country is becoming, my daughter is engaged to an asian what happens if they get married she decides to divorce him who deals with it his barbaric sharia law or does our democratic laws decide , what the een news fails to mention is the thousands and i mean thousands of honour killings take place in britain every year, plus only a few months ago at one school down south over 60 little girls went missing and the muslim community refuses to tell the authorities where they have went
171

John S,

09/10/2008 14:17:49
Divorce via text message under Sharia Law:-
Getting a quickie divorce has taken on a whole new meaning in Malaysia after it was decided that a man can divorce his wife with a text message........said as long as the message was clear and unambiguous it was valid under Islamic Sharia law.25 April 2006
Religious authorities in at least two Persian Gulf countries, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar, upheld divorce by text message in rulings between 2001 and 2003. Islamic officials in Singapore rejected it.
A court in Dubai has ruled that a man can divorce his wife by sending her a text message.........sent a message to his wife’s mobile phone which simply read: “Why are you late? You are divorced.29/06/2001
The Cairo woman stared in disbelief at the text message in her cellphone inbox.The electronic chirrup of an incoming message signaled his response. "I divorce you," her husband had written.Until Egyptian courts and religious scholars decide the fate of the woman's marriage, she lives apart from the husband.January 26, 2008
Under Islamic Sharia law, a man can divorce his wife by a stating “I divorce thee” three times. If he makes the statement only twice, the husband can change his decision within three months. Women do not share this right.
172

Bling Crosby,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 14:18:06
I can't see this happening.

Everyone calm down.
173

Sanny,

Upwey 09/10/2008 14:20:04
There can only be ONE LAW in our country and everyone within the country must abide by it. If any community feels it cannot accept this then they are free to leave – willingly or otherwise!

Why are posters assuming that this introduction of a mediaeval system of law (or abuse) is supported by the SNP?? Have I missed something or is this more scaremongering before the bye-election?
174

hertscot,

09/10/2008 14:21:00
Sam,

The English weren't given a vote and neither will we be given a say, we will need to vote out the numptie politicos who allow things like this to happen, and put in parliament those who actually represent us to repeal the ruling.

By the way Zish, that would be called democracy.
175

hertscot,

09/10/2008 14:24:26
Bling,

The real reason why the posters are revolting is - 'talks were held in secret'

Zish, that is not democracy.
176

oder,

Scotland 09/10/2008 14:30:10
175 brettgallacher,edinburgh

is he Muslim? will she convert to Islam if that is case she ends up a piece of property! if she leaves Islam then she has committed unforgivable crime of being apostate punishable by death Islamic law she cannot divorce her husband although her husband can divorce her! women are not treated as equal in a Sharia court of Law!
177

should have gone to specsavers,

Thurso 09/10/2008 14:37:53
"Qamar Bhatti, director of the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal (MAT), which runs the courts, admitted discussions were taking place with lawyers and Muslim community groups in Scotland."

Nowhere does it say in this article, or anywhere else, does it say that these discussions have included MSP's, or that the discussions lead to concrete arrangements to set up sharia tribunals in Scotland, or that Sharia courts would remove any matters from the authority or jurisdiction of Scottish law.
The only opinion quoted happened to a tory spokesperson, whose opinion happened to be the same as mine and everyone else I know who vote for SNP, and if one went around and asked I bet one would find that opinion similair to those of other political leanings.
#178 Sanny was right. It is scaremongering before the by-election.
Is it my imagination or has the Scotsman degenerated into a partisan rag?
178

Dunnie,

Canada 09/10/2008 14:40:13
48 - Finzz, your comment - "Sharia Law has the same legal standing as the local rules at your golf club" - is breathtaking in terms of its idiocy. Sharia law is binding and has tremendous influence within respective Muslim communities.

Don't like the rules at your local golf club. Then quit. Don't like the rules of Islam and the those who dispense Sharia law - then be afraid; be very afraid.

There should be no talks - secret or whatever.

One law. Our law.You don't like it and can't accept it, then don't leave your native shores.

179

Leadership,

London 09/10/2008 14:40:22
Zish #154 said:

"There is no need to lie. I was born here. I have the same rights as you to be here. I have the same right to participate in the democratic process, freedom of speech assembly and association. There is no need to lie."

A fait accompli then, Zish? I don't think so.

Lying in Islam - "Al-taqiyya". According to this, "all but the most fundamental Muslims consider lying to non-Muslims to be a good work". Read that again - "ALL but ..."

So if Zish is being straight with us, then he is a fundamentalist, clocking up his good deeds in his own relentless way for salvation. It's always nice to know who you're dealing with. Come on and admit it Zish. You can be honest with us!

Taken from here:
'Al-taqiyya and dissimulation are words used for a practice of Muslims blatantly lying to non-Muslims. All but some of the most fundamental Muslims consider the act of Al-taqiyya or lying to non-Muslims to be a good work. This is very important when one remembers that, in Islam, salvation is determined by good works. This means that a Muslim lying to a non-Muslim is that Muslim doing a good work to earn salvation. It is almost equivalent to a Christian accepting Jesus as his savior. One of the big differences is that a Christian only needs to accept Jesus as his savior once to become saved forever but a Muslim must do his good works consistently and repeatedly to earn his salvation with the except of the greatest work of dying while fighting non-Muslims.

This is particularly important when one realizes that the only work which can guarantee salvation for a Muslim is to wage war against and kill non-Muslims or at least support those who do wage war against and kill non-Muslims. It is only logical that to lie in support of a war against non-Muslims could guarantee salvation for a Muslim because it would be considered supporting the war. This is a very powerful motivation for any Muslim to lie to any non-Muslim for any reason but especially when concerning
180

Dunnie,

Canada 09/10/2008 14:42:50

Phew - just noticed that in terms of the last word in my posting, the letter "s" is uncomfortably close to the letter "w". LOL!!!
181

The faithful=,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 14:48:27
I LOVE THE B.N.P.....where do i subscribe.???

182

,

09/10/2008 14:48:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
183

,

09/10/2008 14:55:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
184

notime4anovice,

glasgow 09/10/2008 14:59:43
#178 sanny
' supported by SNP ??'
Although I agree that this newspaper is anti SNP there is some previous stuff that lends support to the article.
Just this year alone they launched 'The Scottish Islamic Foundation ' which is linked to the Muslim Brotherhood. They also backed calls for a state funded islamic school in Glasgow and looked into sourcing money from Qatar through the 'Islamic Finance Council'
Apologies if these facts are untrue. All found by googling like a Zish.
185

Zish,

09/10/2008 15:00:05
What was so secret about this?

Shariah & Scots Law

Date: 16th July 2008
Time: 19:30 - 21:30
Location: Pollokshields Burgh Hall, 70 Glencairn Gardens, Glasgow

With reference to the recent debate about the application of shariah law, this seminar will explore how the “Shariah effect” on civil matters can be achieved without any changes to Scots law

Topics to be covered :
Intestacy and Wills
Mahr and Prenup
Parenting and Guardianship
Essential for those dealing with family issues in the Muslim community, those wishing to know their rights, or people simply looking to increase their knowledge in the area.

Speaker:
John Fotheringham, W.S.

John Fotheringham, WS has been a solicitor specialising in child and family law in Scotland for 33 years. He is Vice-Convener of the Law Society's Family Law Committee and former Chairman of Child Support Appeals. He is General Editor of Butterworths Scottish Family Law Service and lectures widely in Scotland and England on family and child law matters. He has a growing Muslim clientbase and is the author of a recent article in the Journal of the Law Society of Scotland which explored the potential for the Scottish legal system to accommodate concepts of Sharia law in the family and child law sphere.

To attend, RSVP with your name, address, email and phone number to info@scottishislamic.org

Fotheringham has written articles in this newspaper saying the same thing openly. Senior judges in Scotland and England have argued in favor of this. I don't see the secrecy or the problem.

Oh and leadership. Can you do a quick comparison: How many Jews have been killed in Europe in the last 1000 years, from York to Auschwitz, and how many under Islam?

186

Dunnie,

Canada 09/10/2008 15:01:42

187 - well said.

Given the spineless wonders we have as leaders in most western democracies, I wager that it is a certainty. Enoch Powell was reviled in his time - largely the victim of the left-wing press - but he may have been right. However, he was dead wrong that "blood would run in the streets" as the result of racial tensions. I submit that it will run because of religious tensions, and that has been the case in almost every century.

If, and I stress if, any elected official has been involved in "secret talks" on this isuue, he/she/they need to resign.
187

Embra Don,

09/10/2008 15:06:03
#48 Finnzz

Quite so - the whole article is designed to inflame the ignorant (in which it appears to have succeeded) and a pathetic attempt to associate the Scottish Government with Islamism.

There is no reason why any group cannot agree among themselves to settle disputes by any set of rules they may agree upon. A common example is to agree on a course of arbitration, thus avoiding the legal system. It it is also quite common to agree to use the laws of another country even if it has no jurisdiction here.

In the event of such an agreement failing however, the agreements would not be enforceable if the were contradictory to Scots Law.
188

Green,

Dundee 09/10/2008 15:13:51
This story is very misleading.

There are no sharia courts in the UK. But anybody can ask someone or an organisation to help them resolve a dispute. The other person to the dispute has to agree freely. Its called alternate dispute resolution or sometimes mediation. The agreed result can then be taken to a court to seek to get it made into a court order, IF

the order can be made in UK law

and; the order is acceptable under UK law.

So for example no other organisation other than a UK court can grant a divorce, except a UK court and it will be done under UK law.

This constant attempt (wehich is not understood by the average journalist) to claim Sharia, jewish etc courts exist here is part of the propaganda to wear people down. A religious 'court' can decide if you are entitled to a 'divorce' or 'annullment' under religious rules, it can never grant a divorce under UK law, or deal with children or assets.

In the same way two surveyors could decide to take a dispute between them to an arbitrator appointed by their professional body to avoid the costs of having a court go through all the detail. They would then ask the Court to make an order making the result legally binding... if the court looks it over and thinks it is OK to do so.
Also the imposition of real sharia courts was actually thrown out after a vote in Canada, and Muslim women were mainly against it.
189

danielrober,

09/10/2008 15:14:14
Typical.

The men who were enemies become friends when attacking a common foe.

So the Natizes and the Islamic Fascist's are winding each other up to attack the middle class liberals. Wow guess we liberals should be scared. After all we have a terrible tack record for winning wars. No wait a minute we have a great track record of winning wars, negotiating peace and finding compromises. Why don't you two groups just shout at each the quietly so the rest of us can continue with more important matters such as trade, commerce and paying taxes.
190

Joe McLaine,

Wishaw 09/10/2008 15:21:23
Embra Don

and a pathetic attempt to associate the Scottish Government with Islamism.

Whit?

There is no need to associate Salmond with Islamism, he has done it himself through Osama Saeed and Mohammed Sawalha. Check the FOI request available online. The key speaker at the SIF conference, funded by the SNP with our money is Tariq Ramadan, the grandson of the founder of al Ikhwan and the last keynote speaker invited up to Scotland by Saeed was Helbawy.

Get a grip man/woman
(delete as appropriate)
191

Brian Ferrari,

09/10/2008 15:24:56
Zish

If once Sharia law is introduced the consensus is that it should then be abandoned, would you agree that our democratic traditions should allow its abolition?
192

SandyC,

Pethshire 09/10/2008 15:30:05
And exactly how many female "scholars" and Immams are there?
I am completely non sectarian and non racist but this mad scheme must have no legal standing whatsoever in our country, however much it upsets some of our muslim citizens.
193

Zish,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 15:31:13
Brian Ferrari

Unless the rule of law has the support of the people, then it can not be exist. In some gulf states there is a dual system, Shariah and secular.

In short, yes I would go with the majority as is the democratic process, but would continue to argue the case in favour.
194

Dunnie,

Canada 09/10/2008 15:34:03
193 - to be "thrown out" you have to be "in".

The allowance for Sharia law in the province of Ontario was rejected over the opposition of many women - not all of the Muslim faith - and many groups upholding the standard of one legal system.

Common sense prevailed but it did once again prove the axiom that politicians- who debate and pass laws - are and should be accountable for the passage of the latter rather than judges who are appointed and paid to interpret them.
195

Zish,

09/10/2008 15:51:16
Sandy C

May I remind you that the UK got its first female judge in 1965. How many female Priests are there in Catholicism? How many female Dali Lamas or Popes? OK, Pope Joan, but that is a bit of a dodgy tale.

Splinter. Plank. Eye.
196

Scythia,

09/10/2008 15:54:55
.
193 - Green.

Islamic sharia courts are currently taking place in England, and due to kick in here next year.

The introduction of sharia law in Britain raises complex questions, as some of its basic tenets are incompatible with the fundamental principles of our liberal democracy and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

There is no equality before the law between men and women and between Muslims and non-Muslims; and there is no freedom to choose and change religion.The absence of anyone regulating the mosques and sharia courts means that they can act as a law unto themselves.In giving even parts of sharia law official status, Britain would be associating itself with a system that in many ways was intolerable according to Western values given that apostates from Islam can suffer severe punishment, even honour killings



197

2Right,

On Location 09/10/2008 15:57:25
We cannot get our Courts to accept our own Laws never mind Sharia.

When In Rome
198

Frank Brady,

09/10/2008 15:59:22
The modernist,leftist, relativist-thinking, secular humanists' wishes have now come home to roost. With a vengeance. By constantly attacking Christianity, getting behind the culture of death, and promoting multi-culturism, their emphasis on the "multi" as opposed to the "mono," taken to its logical conclusion, now will mean that any group (religious or otherwise) can have its very own law and judicial system. Leading to chaos. Was that their goal in the first place?
199

Anthony,

Glasgow 09/10/2008 16:02:29
This is offensive to non-muslims. It will also very probably back-fire big time on the buffoons who support it. It demonstrates that Islam is profoundly incompatible with a western liberal society - otherwise why do only muslims continually need all these concessions and special treatments? Why no Judiac courts? Or Christian ones? Or Hindu ones? Or Buddhist? Or atheist? Because they can all get along within a system that divides secular and religious life. Islam makes no such distinction.

By constantly making these concessions to muslims, our society is being changed in the process in a way the vast majority of people, including many of the best informed, do not support. This seriously has got to be stopped, and those responsible for these decisions identified and removed from the policy process.
200

2Right,

On Location 09/10/2008 16:05:20
Aamer Anwar, a Glasgow-based civil rights lawyer, said: "Those using sharia law are fully entitled to religious freedom as long as it doesn't conflict with criminal law. Because it happens to be Islamic , people jump to the conclusion it is barbaric.

Only a few weeks ago I read a story of 5 women being shot and buried while still alive in Pakistan.

Their Crime :

They dared to ask to be allowed to "pick their own" Husbands.

Is this not Barbaric Mr Anwar ?

Would this be allowed in Scotland under Sharia Law ?

"When In Rome"
201

Anthony,

Glasgow 09/10/2008 16:06:35
198) Zish - not so. There is what could be loosly described as a dual system in some gulf states. But both are based on shariah. Needless to say this is also forced on non-muslims. No islamic country makes a distinction between secular and islam, because the concept is alien to islam.
202

Anthony,

Glasgow 09/10/2008 16:16:47
192) Sorry - you seem to be the one not following the plot. What is being proposed - no sorry that is introduced, since the decisions have already been taken, is that judgements made by Shariah courts in THIS country, are recognised as competent within certain areas of the law by Scottish courts. That does constitute the formal recognition of Shariah law into Scots Law. Very disturbing. The article does not misrepresent matters, in fact if anything, it understates them.
203

Zish,

09/10/2008 16:24:28
Anthony:

I may be mistaken, but I though Dubai had two systems running plus geographical trade areas that utilised a range of legal systems?


204

Anthony,

Glasgow 09/10/2008 16:28:36
8) Ron - I agree - a brilliant speech. I think it sums up the sentiments of the vast majority of British people too. Sentiments which the likes of the BBC do their damdest to suppress and play down.
205

Cappo Del Monte,

09/10/2008 16:30:41
Ok all you sharia lawers
Is this against your law or not?
zish you can answer please
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/breaking-news/Man-denies-making-girl-commit.4574569.jp
206

Anthony,

Glasgow 09/10/2008 16:32:41
Zish - most legal systems have for example double-tax treaties, and various means of recognising international law. That's not the same though as a private citizen being able to access any specific rights. The Emirates could actually be said to have four systems if you count administrative courts - all except the international ones are based on shariah, though it would probably be fair to say the lower ones tend to take a stricter interpretation.
207

Zish,

09/10/2008 16:36:26
Cappo:

Of course it is. Personally, if found guilty, I'd like to see his nadgers removed with a lump hammer.

However what the penalty is under Shariah I don't know because I don't know the details. But this is a matter for the Scottish courts anyway.

PS It's not my law.
208

long live the supermarkets,

every little hurts 09/10/2008 16:39:21
#106zish I know you seem to be defending the indefensible by quoting" Muslims do not kill for blood lust. As the Qur'an says, if you kill one innocent person it is as if you killed the whole of mankind".What about the three Glasgow doctors who were meant to save lives were they trying to do blow up women and little children even babies i for one find if this is about Muslim religion then these people are murderers from now on on we should start like the americans are doing, finger printing people when they enter our country from abroad.
209

Cappo Del Monte,

09/10/2008 16:40:20
you certainly seem to advocate it and want it, therefore i would say it was your law, or one you would want to follow.
I am sure if that happened in any muslim country that per*ert would get off with it and no doubt the females punished for tempting the poor man
210

Zish,

09/10/2008 16:49:58
Cappo: You mean like the Vatican did with the pedo preists?

Long live the .... Remember the case is subjudice, but the one that died as a result? What he did was wrong, endangered others and harmed Islam.
211

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 09/10/2008 16:57:20
Bring it on! Stuff the women in burkhas and stone them when they nag and complain. Heaven at last. ;-)
212

Cappo Del Monte,

09/10/2008 17:00:07
217 purveyor of p_ish
If you cant answer the question, there is no need to bring child molesters into it, the article i quoted had nothing to do with that sort of thing, catholic church neither has "laws " or trys to inflict them on the general population.
I could alway ask what a preist is but I will let that one go, away with your soap box and preach, I am sure some people would love you to do that in public lol
213

Miss H,

09/10/2008 17:22:19
12 Don’t be so gullible. Secret talks indeed – more like non existent.

A few months ago it was being pretty widely put about by this newspaper that the SNP Government had improperly financed the Scottish Islamic Foundation because the CEO is an SNP candidate who also believes in Sharia law, Islamic jihad and all the rest of it.

Questions were asked in parliament, FOI requests were made. The questions were answered, the FOI requests were answered – there was no story. Now - in this story - the spokeperson for the Scottish Islamic Foundation says there is no need for and no demand for sharia courts. But does it stop the rabid Islamaphobes and SNP bashers? Nope of course not.

Time you worked out what this is all about – stopping the SNP holding Glasgow Govan and winning Glasgow Central.
214

Zish,

09/10/2008 17:27:27
219 Cappo Del Monte

Hmm. The catholic church does have laws: you can find them on the Vatican website. It also did attempt to impose laws on others and still does where it can. Try getting an abortion after you are raped in Ireland

I do find your need to run to insult telling: anyone who has to resort to such techniques clearly knows he is on the loosing side in any dialogue. Nice dig about the typo though.

We seem to have some misunderstanding. When you said : "I am sure if that happened in any muslim country that per*ert would get off with it and no doubt the females punished for tempting the poor man."

I though you were referring to a sex crime. Was I wrong because the pedo-priest comment seemed to annoy you.
215

Miss H,

09/10/2008 17:36:44
207 Nonsense. There are no sharia courts in this country and no proposals to introduce them.

216

hottody,

Ottawa 09/10/2008 17:37:25
Muslims tried to have sharia law implemented in Ontario, thankfully the Ontario government kiboshed the idea. One system for all.
217

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 17:37:43
152

Look it up for yourself the bible is full of em there are web pages set up just to illustrate em dead easy to find just type bible and world domination or bible and murder or bible and murderous quotes or bible and death or bible and killing etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.
218

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 17:38:37
152

And the exact same goes for the Torah.
When it comes to religions you will find that Islam is tamer than most.
219

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 17:39:44
214

Nobody knows how many Harold Shipman has murdered do you?
220

Miss H,

09/10/2008 17:43:14
116 There is a reason why the article does not go into depth. Because it is basically rubbish.

They just run stories like this a) because it can be guaranteed to whip up a frenzy and b) because there is an agenda to try and tar the SNP as being somehow in hock to religious fundamentalists. I am not saying the Scotsman is responsible for that agenda but they certainly play to it as previous stories about the Scottish Islamic Foundation demonstrate.
221

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 17:46:52
195

The problem is your idea of Islamism and what it really is are poles apart. Right now this so called illegal war on terrorism which is really a war for resourses has got the Western world up in arms against something it has no comprehension about.
There are no "Islamic terrorists" any more than there were "Catholic terrorists" or "Protestant terrorists" in Northern Ireland.
None of these people involved in terrorism have any rights to claim they represent anything other than themselves. Just like our governments invading Iraq and Afganistan in our name. Well they didnt do it for me and they certainly didnt do it in my name.
222

oder,

Scotland 09/10/2008 17:59:00
217 Zish,09

since you raised the subject of pedo priests

What do you think of the practice of "thighing" as expounded by the Ayatollah Khomenei in his autobiography? would appreciate an answer!
223

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 09/10/2008 18:02:01
So the Scotsman really expects folk to believe that if this was true they wouldn't get a quote from the Scottish government or some of the leading figures in the World of Scottish Law?

The things you read when there is a by election pending.
224

Joe McLaine,

Wishaw 09/10/2008 18:06:00
Superparcelofrogues.

The terrorists in Northern Ireland were Republican and Loyalist terrorists because the words described the aims of their terrorism.

What words describe Islamist Terrorists? Helbawy and his colleagues prefer "Al-Qaeda inspired Terrorists"



225

Scythia,

09/10/2008 18:25:32
228 - It is not rubbish , sharia courts have been running in England since Aug 2007 and are planned for next year in Edinburgh and Glasgow.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4749183.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4749183.ece

Is the person heading up the SIF and the SNP candidate for Glasgow, the Islamic boy Mr Saeed, a member of the Muslim assoc of Britain (MAB) , a group affiliated to the extremist group The Islamic Brotherhood.A sharia law and global cilaphate advocate.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/nov/01/religion.world

The same person encouraging Dundee muslims not to cooperate with the police.

“There is no extremism to talk about (in Dundee) and they are barking up the wrong tree. But that’s my message to the police—‘lay off.’

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2006/11/08/newsstory8943093t0.asp

Even the moderate muslims are appalled.

"I don’t think it is a responsible statement from Mr Saeed. He doesn’t know Dundee. Dundee Muslims are well integrated into the community, and we don’t have any problem whatsoever. I haven’t even met this person, and I don’t think he represents the Muslim residents of Dundee."


Your party needs to eject Saeeed and Hanif or your party is finished.
226

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 18:32:18
232

No they were terrorists if you support the UK government they were freedom fighters if you supported their causes. One mans terrorist and all that cack.
If the UK government doesnt go along with the democratic process involving Scottish Independence then what will those who decide to take that Independence by force be?
Was Michael Collins a terrorist or national hero? was George Washington? John Paul Jones? Nelson Mandela? Ghandi? I think you will find the word terrorist is very subjective.
227

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 18:37:50
I agree this is a bad move. Anything which allows any community to retreat into itself is a bad thing, whether it is Catholic schools or Sharia courts. The Muslim community is in danger of cutting itself off from the indigenous people. But no-one is forcing anyone to put their dispute before a Sharia 'court'. Any decisions made will surely only be binding if both parties agree to abide by them and everyone will still be able to take a grievance to the normal courts. Scots Law will, I presume, always have primacy.
228

Canada,

Canada 09/10/2008 18:47:41
When will the appeasement end? If they don't like our laws, let them go home. The country is well rid of them. Appeasement never ends, wait till the next demand. Stop falling for anything, try standing for something for a change. I was appalled in a visit last month that the church of my baptism and boyhood is now a mosque, my street, Allison Street, Govanhill, Glasgow is like a Punjab market place and I, ill at ease, a stranger in my own land. According to the PCs and goodie goodies that will make me a racist. What a mess they have made of our pleasant land.
229

Joe McLaine,

09/10/2008 18:48:47
Superparcelofrogues:

No They both targeted and killed innocents deliberately.

The IRA and the UVF were terrorists. Not freedom fighters, defenders of the crown or any other nonsense your post-modern moral relativiistic philosophy allows you to excuse them as.

Loyalist and Republican Terrorist.

A pox on both their houses.
230

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 09/10/2008 18:49:54
Let them bring on their laws: no rights for women, death to infidels. But don't worry, they mean jihad in a nice way.
231

Resolutions,

09/10/2008 18:50:03
Zish
"Other religions have Allah given laws that were then corrupted by their priests and Kings. That is why Allah sent us his messenger (pbuh): we are tolerant of the people of the book because they can not be blamed for the corruption of their past priests and kings. That is why Allah commanded us to be tolerant of Christians and Jews."

It strikes me that your version of 'priests' are doing a pretty good job of corrupting your Koran.
If Allah commanded you to be tolerant of Christians and Jews, I suggest that you take a good hard look at what is construed world-wide as TOLERANT.
Perhaps you should go back to basics and question, "What is Allah really asking us to do here?"
I've a feeling that you may be a bit surprised that the interpretation by your 'priests' may not be the only one.

232

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 09/10/2008 19:00:39
Sorry #239, I don't believe in Allah or witchcraft. Time to stop being a victim of superstitious clap trap of any sort.
233

Miss H,

09/10/2008 19:04:30
236 What a crock. Govanhill has always been a melting pot. It was always said that one side of Allison Street was Bengal, the other side Donegal. I don't know which side you grew up on but perhaps you noticed the thousands of Roma the last time you were back? Not Muslims the last time I looked.
234

Miss H,

09/10/2008 19:08:25
233 Have you actually read the story you are commenting on?

Noman Tahir, of the Scottish-Islamic Foundation, said there was no groundswell of support for sharia courts in Scotland.

"Currently, Scottish Muslims resolve civil matters through the courts or voluntary third-party arbitration with Islamic scholars and imams," he said. "This has worked well for many years and we are not aware of any unhappiness with these arrangements or calls for change.'

That couldn't be much clearer but don't let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory!
235

W Smith,

Middle East 09/10/2008 19:11:20
QUIZ TIME FOR THE SALMOND-ISTAS:

The church going community in the USA is more than 5% of the population - 15 million.

The muslim population in the EU is around 16 million.

Guess which commuinity is more likely to murder female members of its community (honour killings) for looking at the wrong guy?

So Salmond's supporters are struggling to answer the question then, eh?

I REST MY CASE.
236

Canada,

Canada 09/10/2008 19:14:19
Miss H. Obviously you don't go very far back. Does your mother know you're on the computer?
237

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 09/10/2008 19:14:26
Oh I haven't noticed a bolt of lightning hitting me yet. What a crock it all is.
238

Miss H,

09/10/2008 19:14:39
243 You clearly rested your sanity some time ago.

You are a crackpot and an obsessive and don't try to disguise it which is why no-one pays any attention to your posts.
239

Miss H,

09/10/2008 19:16:47
244 I go back to the 1970s. Maybe you were on the Claddagh Club side of the street. Or maybe you go back to the days when there were more synogogues than churches. Or maybe you don't come from Govanhill at all, which seems most likely to me. What school did you go to?
240

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledodia, Alba 09/10/2008 19:26:56
Grey squirrel syndrom, I fear. Bit like the early settlers in the New World having their own laws.

And as for the newspaper plant, Zish, for that to go unchallenged for so long shows a lot of restraint from the normal pasters. It also shows a lot of ignorance, in that no one queried the entity as to how it came up with the conclusion that Sharia law is not man made. Who wrote it down and on what?

All laws are man made. All religious beliefs are man made.

Laws of the land are man made. The spirit is within. The pen is external. My spirit says beware of Muslims and so does my pen. Better to beware of them now than have to fight them later.
241

Dunnie,

Canada 09/10/2008 19:30:11

Why are we being frog-marched into accepting a religion and its laws and customs that are from a region and culture that is totally foreign to Scotland's own history and culture?

Are we that insipid to say: "Oh yes, fine, if that's the way you want it, go ahead and change our legal system and the government that guides it."

Why is it always a one-way flow? Do we have mass migration to Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and subsequent demands to impose laws and religious beliefs?

As long as we have gutless, left-wing napkin folders as our political leaders, the UK is heading for a slow and messy flush down the loo.
242

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 09/10/2008 19:31:14
W Smith@243. So you rest your case. Does that mean you are going to settle down?

243

Canada,

Canada 09/10/2008 19:43:20
Miss H,
I go back to the 50s. I went to Annette Street, now full of Muslims. The Claddagh Club was the Hampden picture house. The first Pakistani (Latifs) family arrived in Bowman Street in 1958 and we all played happily together. But they didn't have to invite over the whole tribe in the later years. I stayed opposite what was the Derby Cafe next to Hunters in the good old days when the streets and backcourts were full of weans, Protestant, Catholic, Jew and then Latifs. That was integration not annexation. I lived there happily till 1975.
244

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 09/10/2008 19:44:19
2 thing get me about Islam. The first is why the adherents all seem to be so un-individual. The second is to wonder how devastated their lives must have been in the years BA (before Allah), sometime in our AD.

Religion is man made and is all about corporate power. Anyone who cannot see that is living in a parallel world.
245

Dunnie,

Canada 09/10/2008 19:50:14
253 - if that is the case, then you're f*cked. Pull the plug and sail away.
246

harvey05,

in secret talks 09/10/2008 19:51:55
It's probably been said already but i dont have all night to read the posts. SO
When in Rome.......

Muslims go home!!!!! to your Proud country.

The one you left!
247

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 09/10/2008 20:08:55
The remarkable thing about the Muslims is how similar they are to the Mormons. Very polite at the doorstep but invite them over the threshold and.......

......well, I end up on the defensive in my own house.
248

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 09/10/2008 20:16:50
Try going into an Islamist country..Saudi Arabia, and bring a bible, and starting a church!!

Walk the the streets of Iran without a head scarf!!

As a woman try choosing your own husbands there.

See if you can leave your home without a male escorting you.!!

THEY expect you to conform to THEIR rules in THEIR country, BUT they seem to find it difficult or refuse to assimilate to the laws and rules of the country they emigrate to.
249

Peterb74447,

Okmulgee 09/10/2008 20:20:59
So if an american would to immigrate to the UK, could they impliment US constitutional law? i very much doubt it!
250

Guest 88,

New York 09/10/2008 20:22:32
Muslims use their faith as an excuse to be wickedly intolerant, incapable of allowing others freedom of speech, They are murderous, oppressive and basically vacant of intellectual or moral resource. Their vicious ideology is an offence. Their murderous violent ways are an offence. Their inability to enter dialogue, their incapacity to show any of the respect they demand and their absolute hatred of all things un-Islamic is an offence.

The Qur’an, is nothing but a filthy rant of evil and oppression and should be illegal.
251

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 09/10/2008 20:24:32
Going into someone else's country and taking it over reminds me of someone else but I just can't quite remember who.
252

Thistledhu,

Fife 09/10/2008 21:28:43
Muslims would be ill served by introduceing sharia in scotland.
you only have to cast a glance through many post on here to realise that such a move would give encouragement and support to partys such as the BNP

such a move would put back intigration and multicultureism in scotland back years if not decades
253

ExpatBackinScotland,

Carnoustie 09/10/2008 21:33:02
I am not religous in any way. But having spent time living in Saudi Arabia where you can be jailed or deported fopr even having a christmas party (because only Islam is allowed) and having seen the way women are treated there, a few things.

1. We are not afforded our own legal system over there.
2. We can be made to witness public executions

In short, spot on John Howard, if they dont like Scots Law, then dont live in Scotland!!! It should be the case that immigrants come here and are free to practice their beliefs AND expected to integrate into society. Where there beliefs and the law collide, there should be only one winner. The law of the Land.

If its good enough for me in Saudi, its good enough for them in Dundee, Glasgow etc.

I really wish this country would get its PC finger out of its PC backside and not entertain this nonsense.
254

david watts,

09/10/2008 22:18:10
why dont these smelly tramps f8ck off back to the desert or wherever they came from. i am sick to the back teeth of reading about muslims every day in the papers. already today I've had to read about them trying to blow up our airport,molesting a girl in an edinburgh mosque and now this. 15 years ago you hardly ever heard of this cult now theyre biggar than the friggin mormons. sorry,get them all out or build me a time machine.
255

Decent,

09/10/2008 22:23:18
#262 That is the most sensible comment I have read on this whole website.
256

Canadian Jambo,

09/10/2008 22:24:33
This idea was proposed in Ontario. There was a massive protest,especially from womens' groups and the whole idea was shelved. I do recall Mr Salmond being 'empathetic' to Muslim schools but I thought that was just an attempt to get votes. Now I am not so sure. This is an appalling idea and should be shown the door.
Just asking-can a non-Muslim apply for a sharia hearing?
257

neltrich,

Wisconsin USA 09/10/2008 22:26:17
If I moved to Scotland (which my husband and I would love to do) I would expect to live according to Scottish laws and traditions. One of the biggest objections to immigration here is the refusal of newcomers to become Americans. Most people have no objection to people moving here, but one would think that if an individual wanted to live in a country it would be because they like that country and what it has to offer. If Scotland, America, or any other country gives up its identity in order to placate newcomers, it will no longer BE the country which attracted them in the first place.
By the way, it was God, not Allah, who gave the Ten Commandments to Moses. They are not the same Being.
258

Decent,

09/10/2008 22:26:36
Oh and 248 and 249 sorry I'm reading them in reverse order.
259

Artemis,

09/10/2008 22:28:02
What a load of over reaction these comments are. Sharia courts will deal with civil matters, not criminal matters. Jewish courts have done the same in this country for hundreds of years and nobody has complained. People are entitled to settle civil matters however they like out of court so what difference does it make to any of you if some people choose to settle in Sharia court, Jewish court or by tossing a coin or slitting a cockerel and reading its entrails? It makes no difference to anyone else at all but people just want to make a fuss about it as a way of expressing their own latent racism.
260

Decent,

09/10/2008 22:41:01
#266 - Why on earth would you want to move to Scotland? Must be one of the worst run countries in the entire world! No sun - no money left once you pay the government your due - full of neds and doleys and do-gooders! It is beautiful though.
261

Decent,

09/10/2008 22:42:03
Racism - aye - have you read any of Zish's comments?
262

danielrober,

09/10/2008 22:44:18
# 241 Miss H,

Ah Miss H, we are in agreement. A rare day but a welcomed one.
263

notime4anovice,

glasgow 09/10/2008 23:00:29
#269 decent said
'Scotland one of the worst run countries in the entire world'
Heck man you will have to travel more.
I'm always glad to get home after travelling. I found the middle east corrupt and stifling. Far East hot and sticky. Most of Europe wrapped up in red tape (esp France). South America dangerous and corrupt. Russia and China sinister and eerie. I've not been to Iceland yet but hopefully I'll see it before it dies.
264

danbob,

09/10/2008 23:03:53
The problem with Islam is that it's basicaly a plagurised version of the old testament. It is not stated in the bible that another prophet (Muhammad) would appear in 800ad. Therefore it would be reasonable to assume he was a false prophet. Consider this verse from the new testament.

However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. 3 Also, with covetousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words. But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering (2 Peter chapter 2 verse 1-3)
265

Decent,

09/10/2008 23:06:29
Anthony- Did you notice Zish chose not to answer any of your questions and then chose to vanish? Maybe a tad too intelligent for him eh?
266

Decent,

09/10/2008 23:08:52
272 - I've travelled a bit but I've only lived here and corrupt!!!! Have you expeienced our police force? I appreciate the humour though :-)
267

Robin_Shadowes,

Caliphate of Swedistan 09/10/2008 23:17:44
All muslims view Mo as the perfect man, the ideal to which they all strife to become. Well, there is only one problem with this, old Mo was BARKING BLOODY MAD!!!
So as a result of all this, they all have to adhere to his lifestyle, after all he was the perfect rolemodel for all muslim males, thus until this very day, they're all BARKING BLOODY MAD!! It's the natural state for them. It has been imprinted in them for 1400 bloody years!! But if you ask me, I'm quite happy with being sane, so I don't plan to go loony in the foreseable future, muslims or not.
268

Leadership,

Londonistan 09/10/2008 23:25:58
#260 Jock Tamson said

"Going into someone else's country and taking it over reminds me of someone else but I just can't quite remember who."

Will you ever understand that two wrongs (if you refer to Iraq here - and I do NOT accept the invasion was wrong) don't make a right!?

I know Iraq was controversial and many still see Bush & Blair as the world's villains because of it. But at least THEY were straight, up front and open about going in there! And now we are stabilising Iraq and handing it back to their own people as a democracy. This is much appreciated, if you bother to find out! To many in Iraq Bush & Blair are heroes. Never forget that the huge majority of deaths are caused by insurgents and Iranians. These people, with the same caliphate agenda as many in the UK, have done a great brainwashing job on many in the free west, if you believe that WE have caused the high number of deaths.

Islamists in Britain are bringing creeping sharia, whilst taking advantage of our freedoms and welfare systems, and WE are daft enough to think it doesn't matter. Of course it matters!

You all know how long you'd live if you went to many of their original homelands and took a gay lover, got divorced, allowed yourself to be raped, had a wee dram, opened up a Christian Church, burned their flag, damned their monarch/leader and called for death to their politicians.

You'd be history sooner than you could say "I'm a Muslim, I'm a Muslim, I'm a Muslim!"

Don't let Salmond or ANY politician take you down this route. I recall him saying, just as Tony Blair was leaving, (forced out by the deniers in his party), that Scotland had no problems with Islam. Two days after Blair's departure - the Glasgow airport attack. Today the 2 survivors are in court.
269

Helter Skelter,

09/10/2008 23:45:47
Great idea.

Our criminal courts are largely a waste of time and resources....let's try this.
270

Dunnie,

Canada 09/10/2008 23:47:44
277 - well said.
271

jerrymanders,

10/10/2008 00:10:32
If yer Scots yer in. If no, GTF.
272

oder,

Scotland 10/10/2008 00:13:45
217 Zish,09

at post 230 I asked you for your opinion on "thighing" as expounded by the Ayatollah Khomenei in his autobiography? you remain silent why? or is it that you recognise deviant behavior is rife amongst your own Mullahs and Ayatollahs but you don't condemn them? care to explain?
273

Otis Boone,

Sacramento 10/10/2008 00:17:17
If I remember correctly, the Acts of Union specified that English Common Law would reign in England, and Scots Law in Scotland.

Both law, as I have researched, promote fairness and equality. Sharia Law, being the law of Islam which has a measure of gender bias and extremism in punishment for crimes well beyond the worst an English, Scottish or French King or Emperor ever permitted, is not based in equality for all.

Scotland and England and Wales each have a legal system. Another is less necessary than another hole in our heads.

I cringe when I read the comment from the Archbishop about permitting Sharia Law to maintain social cohesion. Why should the majority society accommodate every wish of a foreign community within its borders? Muslims wanting their own courts separate from those of the State's is no different than Mexicans refusing to learn English here in the US.

You came here, assimilate to us.

This situation is nothing like the Quebecois in Canada, or us African-Americans in the Antebellum South, were both groups were established communities fighting for recognition and sovereignty. We had to adapt, as did the majority, because we were already here and living together. Immigrants do not qualify - you came to the US and UK for a better life so embrace our cultures.

Granted you should still maintain your identity as a Muslim and follow the code of your Koran, but you don't get your own law. If you want that, overthrow the Imams and Shahs in your homelands and set up new regimes.

Hell, hurry and ask George Bush for help with that, he's only got 103 days left.
274

MichScot,

USA 10/10/2008 00:28:59
Read the Quran. They want all the world for Allah. It's in there.
275

MichScot,

USA 10/10/2008 00:44:42
#52

I disagree with you completely. GOD is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, all pre-existing this world's formation.
276

MichScot,

USA 10/10/2008 00:59:41
Zish, #62:

It's MOSES. He was JEWISH, and that's why you hate them, because he was descended from Isaac, Abraham's heir, and not Ishmael, son of Hagar, the slave of Sarah. Ishmael and Hagar were kicked out by Abraham when Ismael was mocking Isaac. God assured Abraham that He would take care of them , and Abraham trusted Him to do so. It was AFTER that when God told Abraham to take ISAAC, Abraham's "son, your ONLY son" to sacrifice him, and, by the way, Isaac was the child of promise, because Sarah had been barren and it was LONG after her menopause that Isaac was miraculously born. She was in in her nineties when Isaac was born.

BUT God cares for Ishmael and his descendants. As the hidden well was seen in the wilderness right in front of them when Ishmael was dying of thirst, HE opens His arms to you and all Muslims to partakes of the LIVING WATER of Jesus Christ ans be saved from eternal death. So you can see that Isaac was a forerunner of Jesus in that God provided a ram to save Isaac and his descendants, and God in His mercy sent Jesus, who WILLINGLY gave His life for you and all people and then He was raised from the deadAnd just to reiterate, Jesus is the LIVING WORD OF GOD and He existed BEFORE the world began and was not the product of a tawdry act.
277

MichScot,

USA 10/10/2008 01:01:56
Zish, #62:

It's MOSES. He was JEWISH, and that's why you hate them, because he was descended from Isaac, Abraham's heir, and not Ishmael, son of Hagar, the slave of Sarah. Ishmael and Hagar were kicked out by Abraham when Ismael was mocking Isaac. God assured Abraham that He would take care of them , and Abraham trusted Him to do so. It was AFTER that when God told Abraham to take ISAAC, Abraham's "son, your ONLY son" to sacrifice him, and, by the way, Isaac was the child of promise, because Sarah had been barren and it was LONG after her menopause that Isaac was miraculously born. She was in in her nineties when Isaac was born.

BUT God cares for Ishmael and his descendants. As the hidden well was seen in the wilderness right in front of them when Ishmael was dying of thirst, HE opens His arms to you and all Muslims to partakes of the LIVING WATER of Jesus Christ ans be saved from eternal death. So you can see that Isaac was a forerunner of Jesus in that God provided a ram to save Isaac and his descendants, and God in His mercy sent Jesus, who WILLINGLY gave His life for you and all people and then He was raised from the deadAnd just to reiterate, Jesus is the LIVING WORD OF GOD and He existed BEFORE the world began and was not the product of a tawdry act.
278

MichScot,

USA 10/10/2008 01:03:54
#190

THOUSANDS of Jews have been killed by Muslims. You are using taqiyyah. And also thousands of Christians. Look at the ancient records and and read them and you will see that this is the truth.
279

MichScot,

10/10/2008 01:14:25
Over 1400 years of Islamic occupation, approximately 120 million Africans, 60 million Christians, 80 million Hindus, and 10 million Buddhists were destroyed by the Muslims. They Jews were no less harshly treated. By the way, my source is an expert on terrorism and a native speaker of Arabic, Brigitte Gabrielle.
280

MichScot,

10/10/2008 01:22:09
#166 Zish

"if I were"" is conditional and has to do with a case or tense that is no longer used except for things like this. There were about 16 of them at one time, but I heard this from a prof, rather than having studied this myself.
281

expatPiper,

10/10/2008 02:23:10
ISLAM PLANS TO GRADUALLY TAKE OVER HOST COUNTRIES

Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its completed, intended form, it is an all encompassing system of life. It originally plagiarized the religious and theological works of the time to establish a political opposition to the societies in the Mid-East of the sixth century.

Dominated by primarily European and Asian influences, the nomadic Arabic peoples were drawn to the political organization which offered them economic opportunity to be gained by the force of arms. Islam has
legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a camouflaging capsule for all of its other entities.

Islamization of a society begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for discriminatory religious privileges. When
politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other manifestations tend to infiltrate, eroding and contaminating the culture.

Here's how history validates the progression:
As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:
United States -- Muslim 0.6%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1.8%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize among other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:
Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%
282

expatPiper,

10/10/2008 02:29:29

From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing
food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply.

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

This is occurring in:
France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

When Moslems approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam,
and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam , with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:
Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 15%

After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:
Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:
Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%
From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing genocide), use of Sharia law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:
Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
283

expatPiper,

10/10/2008 02:30:59
From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers
of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic
ethnic cleansing genocide), use of Sharia law as a weapon, and Jizya, the
tax placed on infidels, such as in:
Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%
After 80%, there is daily intimidation and violent jihad, some state-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Islam. This has been experienced and is on-going in:
Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%
100% supposedly ushers in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace. There is supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only
word, such as in:
Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 100%
284

expatPiper,

10/10/2008 02:32:39
Unfortunately, peace is never achieved! As in the 100% states above, the most radical Muslims intimidate, spew hatred, violate women and
children, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, using rationalizations and corruptions of every basic human decency.
Whether in mutilating women or raping young boys, they invoke the name of religion for authority. One only need to recall the killing of innocent
female children in Saudi Arabia by religious police, or the atrocities of the Taliban in order to realize that we are in a war where our enemies do
not fight by the rules governing civilized nations.
In some countries with relatively small minority Moslem populations, such as France (8%), these minority Moslem populations live in ghettos.
Within these 100% Islamic communities, they live by Sharia law. Police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts holding
them accountable to the societies they seek to change to their false and corrupt ideologies. Schools are Islamic, and there are no non-Muslim
religious facilities. In these enclaves of injustice and religious totalitarianism, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large.
Their is absolutely no intention to assimilate into the cultures that afforded them economic opportunities not to be found when Islamic theocracies rule. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran, and the evil of Islam. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. In some areas of certain nations, such as
Iran, Imams and extremists exercise more power than the majority.
Today's 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world's population. Because their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddists, Jews, and all other believers, Muslims will exceed 50% of the
world's population by the end of this century. Clearly, able only to dominate by injustice and force, the potential for these purveyors of evil to overcome democracies is real.
285

common sense voice,

10/10/2008 05:13:16
maybe we should just nuc' them! would it really be so bad if we never had these guys around?
Law of the jungle time, lets stop being fat hippo's or lazy monkeys and fight the hyena's with big cat type aggression
286

Robin_Shadowes,

Between Mo's buttocks 10/10/2008 05:44:40
csv, we in the western world fight for our survival, against the most aggressive, fanatical and violent force in history. Perhaps nukeing the ME will eventually be the only solution left, either them or us. However, that doesn't solve the problems with the muslims amongst us. We can hardly nuke ourselves, can we? A fear most of europe will be plagued by violent and bloody civil wars in the not too distant future. It's probably inevitable. We can ask them to leave, but how large is the probability that they will comply? Not much, right?
287

Jim A,

10/10/2008 06:44:07
Zish, you wrote "Muslims do not kill for bloodlust. As the Qur'an says, if you kill one innocent person it is as if you killed the whole of mankind"

Someone needs to tell your Islamic brethern in Iraq to go have another of the Qur'an then mate. The last I heard they were machinegunning other Muslims while they were in prayer, and obviously the two scumbag doctors behind the Glasgow airport attack missed school the day that part of the Qur'an was taught. Or don't they see people going about their peaceful business as innocent?

Religion of peace and enlightenment your a$$, bunch hate mongering hypocrits.
288

!Ya basta!,

10/10/2008 07:02:59
Some very scary, though not unexpected, comments on this blog.

Three things bother me.

1.We are becoming extremist and intolerant too, which means extremism is winning, which is what Jihadists want. We should stick to our values of tolerance and understanding and make some concessions for other peoples on these lines. It is the only way to maintain peace. Otherwise we are heading down a dangerous path.

2. As a foreigner living abroad, it is very hard to integrate into another society because it means changing some fundamental things about yourself which even if you want to change, is very difficult. Should I eat food I don't like? Should I change the way I behave towards people? Change the way I dress? Should I not express my views? It is not easy at all and most Westerners tend to stick together, we do not integarte very well as a rule.

3. As a culture rather than individuals, like it or not, we have and do perpetuate misery abroad. The West has colonised, we do exploit developing countries, we do prop up horrible regimes (eg Saudi to name but one)and dictators and there is a lot of cultural imperialism from the West - why should CNN, Disney Channels etc be available everywhere? etc. We have to look at ourselves here because a lot of Muslim and developing country anger comes from our political and economic hypocrisy. If we addressed this I think a lot of extremism would have the ground cut from under it.

289

Northbrit,

lanark 10/10/2008 07:19:16
Islam is fast becoming a thorn in Britains side i have seen this zish muslim person stating , that if you never wanted islam here you should not have invited my ancestors ,and that he seems to think he has some sort of divine right to change British laws , transform them to suit islam , well im sorry it was the Government who forced your ancestors on this country the people of England,ireland,Scotland,Wales had no say what so ever, and we are now at the tipping point where we can see the sort of future that awaits our children , and it is not looking good , but you seem to think that we are weak cowardly and will just drift into the background and say oh well thats the way it is now , im afraid you and others with your views are very sadly mistaken we will stand up for our culture,traditions,beliefs when we really have to , the phrase *poking a sleeping giant when its sleeping springs to mind* we dont have a infinite supply of patience and nor does europe either .
290

Unimpressed one,

10/10/2008 07:20:49
"Those using sharia law are fully entitled to religious freedom as long as it doesn't conflict with criminal law. Because it happens to be Islamic , people jump to the conclusion it is barbaric."

Like hand amputation for theft and stoning for adultery. There's no place in the twenty first century UK for this 14th century superstitious barbarism.
291

LAM,

Edinburgh 10/10/2008 08:07:30
All I can say it this is crazy.. I agree 21. This was secret because it is wrong one law not a separate one for Muslims that happen to be here. If our laws are not exceptable then they know where they can go. This should not be a little article this... the public need to adamantly say NO to this.
292

oder,

Scotland 10/10/2008 08:39:09
299 Unimpressed one,

the problem with Islam is that all Islamic laws are based on the religion form the historical point of view not acceptable in the secular world.
Islamic religious freedom is not at risk here!
Scots law is. what is being requested here is Apartheid law for obviously different people who do not or will not integrate into Scottish/British life in this muti culture Britain why should Muslims be given preferential treatment? the only question for Muslims in Britain is if you cant live under our laws they should reconsider their presence here. just like Islamic fairness in Saudi.
293

Michael2009,

Oxford 10/10/2008 09:45:31
Sharia courts have existed in the UK for at least 30 years and are only allowed to make judgements on civil court proceedings and not criminal cases. The Jew have had their own courts for around a 100 years. Get over it that's my advice frankly and don't pay any attention to those that merely want to raise racial tensions.
294

Otis Boone,

Sacramento 10/10/2008 09:55:31
I'm fully certain that Britain is enough like America in that foreigners who emigrate legally are welcome to continue their traditions as long as those traditions are not in conflict with current social mores and law.

That being said, Sharia law is a law in conflict with the legal system in Britain. The fact that peers and the Scottish Government are permitting this should be an alarming thought about finding a method to expel peers from the Parliament, and reconsidering who you vote for in the next Scots elections.

This is not intolerance, as someone posted previously. This is about apartheid. By establishing Sharia courts, the Muslim population in Britain is showing not only contempt of the Common and Scots law, but showing it is rejecting British, Scottish, and English ways of life.

That is a more dangerous threat to the Union than the Nationalist movement, since having a minority culture with the ability to set its own law, despite guarantees of the supremacy of UK Laws, will eventually lead to Scotland, whether independent or part of the Union, having to worry about Jihad should a future government try to curtail the influence of Islamic tradition.

Nice thing about America, the WASPs would've ended this idea long before it started on Talk Radio (AM Band radio for those not familiar).
295

Michael2009,

10/10/2008 11:03:38
Tucked away in Leyton, east London, is Britain's oldest sharia court. Entirely innocuous, there are no signs promoting its presence, nor anything in its façade to suggest the gravity of the decisions made within its four walls. Once a corner-shop, and haphazardly arranged into an office space with the help of temporary partitions, it is now the site of hundreds of judgments each month based on the requirements of Islamic law. Yet, in the 25 years since its inception, it has not presided over any of the stereotypical cases associated with sharia law – not one hand has been cut off, norfornicator flogged. Rather more prosaically, penal law is never addressed – the fatwas (judgments) all concern personal issues such as divorce, financial arbitration, family disputes and inheritances.
296

MickyFinn,

10/10/2008 14:58:14
If people wish to live and work etc within this country they also must abide by the laws of said country. I cannot imagine what would occur in any muslim country where persons tried to set up a seperate legal system or have a different opinion.

Diversity in this country is fair enough but now some persons want all the cake and eat it, maybe the elder statesman from the 50-60s was correct.

This is playing into the hands of some groups looking for an excuse to ignite a fuse.
297

Eric Muldownie,

London 10/10/2008 16:49:37
Let's be clear here ,muslims cannot and will not coexist with non-muslims.
Democracy or islam , we can't have both .
298

Anthony,

Glasgow 10/10/2008 18:00:59
306 - I fear you're right. History and recent events definitely bear you out.
299

ochone,

Sauchie,Clack's 10/10/2008 18:35:33
So by now I take it we will all have read the article in todays (friday) times, which shows this up for another load of unionist rubbbish prior to a by election.
300

Gairdener,

Dalmellington 10/10/2008 19:14:51
You are viewing petitions in the "Public order, justice and rights"

categoryhttp://petitions.number10.gov.uk/list/open?cat=564

Stop Sharia Law from being binding in law under arbitration tribunals rules
301

Caledonia American,

USA 10/10/2008 21:58:40
Do the Poles, French or Irish get separate courts? NO! So no separate Muslim court, either. One system for all. If they don't like it, go back to where you came from!
302

Fred in sunny Sydney,

sydney 10/10/2008 22:52:48
#6 and all others who quote 'Australain Prime Minister' John Howard's ..so called 'brilliant' speech.

Let me say

1 I do not support any sharia courts in Scotland, but

2 You are scraping the barrel by using Howard as support

3 He has never given as far as I am aware, any 'brilliant' speech

4 The Oz people recognised this and voted him out of office several months ago,,he is NOT 'Australia's Prime Minister" (look it up on google)

5 Not only did he lose the election, but he even lost his OWN parliamentary seat!

The first time an incumbent PM had lost his seat in yonks!

Little Johnnie's view of a 50's world was no tsupported by Aussies.

303

Michael2009,

11/10/2008 09:20:29
Do the Poles, French or Irish get separate courts?

I think you will find that they are not religions. The Jews also have their own court in the UK and have done for around 100 years. Any problems with that?
304

george from falkirk,

falkirk 11/10/2008 11:39:36
so which football ground are they going to ues for the stonings
305

Michael2009,

11/10/2008 11:57:31
What a load of codswallop. So let's see it's OK for the USA/UK to impose their laws and political system on other countries at the point of a gun, killing 1.2 million people in the process but it's not OK for Muslims to have their own legal system in the UK for civil court cases?
We've had Sharia law in the UK for over 25 years and no one has been stoned to death or even had their hands cut off. People cannot even get stoned at football grounds any more with alcohol.
Get over it children, your problems are based on racism and not respect for any laws.
306

glen urquhart,

glasgow 11/10/2008 12:16:58
Excellent news if only the law could be extended to include all the recent incomers to Ghetto Govanhill - you know the ones who sell the Big Issue and live 15 in a flat without paying a penny in council tax - It would certainly create new career opportunities in cutting hands off.
307

P·K ,

11/10/2008 15:07:02
Muhammad2009

Why the need to bring up the Jews (#302)? No where can I find such word in the article above!! Posters here are discussing about Sharia Law. It has nothing to do with the Jews whom your Muslim brothers dislike.

Have you lost an argument that you have to resort to making continual comparison, bringing up the Jews, Poles, French, Irish??? And what next, Catholics, Protestants and other non-Muslim religions? So, your problems are based on racism.
308

P·K ,

11/10/2008 15:20:57
#224

What garbage are you spouting out?? Read your Qu'ran to have better understanding, to determine who carry out numerous death threats and suicide bombing in this present world. Don't use the past events (that's all history and passed) happened many decades ago as an excuse to spill your propaganda and lies.

309

BarrieLass,

UK 11/10/2008 20:48:01
Why would any sane person independently vote for second class status?

For the chance to be mutilated, the chance for your wife or daughter to be considered a sex slave, to violently murder the harmless homosexual down the street, to wish to inflict needless pain on animals, to ban baths, and even to sit in a certain direction whilst having a poo?

Well the church really have surpassed themselves now. There was me thinking it was only Rowan “Owl” Williams, the Arch-Dhimmi of Canterbury who was mad!

Attention to all those that excuse or kowtow to Islam and who think it’s OK to just let a “little bit” of sharia in through the door. I have a video for you.

THE VIOLENT OPPRESSION OF WOMEN IN ISLAM

It is a video that has been produced by the David Horowitz Foundation (he's Jewish, by the way, and speaks with amazing authority on the subject).

http://tinyurl.com/2g6zvw

Did you know that every year, many thousands of Afgani women kill themselves, often by setting themselves on fire, just to ESCAPE THE OPPRESSION OF ISLAM. An average of 10 women self-immolate every month in Afghanistan alone, worldwide over 100 a month.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=deqYxpXjQyA&NR=1

Shocked? Is this what YOU want for your daughters and grand-daughters?

No? It is what the current Labour, the SNP, and a future Conservative government want for you, my friends. Our bankrupt governments, in Scotland, Wales and England, are working hand-in-hand with Middle Eastern governments, and are exchanging YOUR freedoms for a guaranteed future oil supply… at ANY cost.
310

Timmy Laycock,

12/10/2008 18:07:08
Does 'Sharia law' apply to any person outside the Muslim communities?

No?

Is 'Sharia Law' only an addition to Scottish common law, just as is 'Beth Din'?

Yes?

So what is the problem?

Racist scaremonger's or concerned 'white' Christians?
311

RTL,

EDINBURGH 12/10/2008 19:37:10
THIS HAS TO BE STOPPED.

"So what is the problem?"
SO WHATS THE MUSLIMS PROBLEM WITH OUR LAW, THEY ARE HERE SO THEY SHOULD ABIDE BY OUR LAW.

ALL THESE PEOPLE WANT TO DO IS FORCE US INTO THEIR WAYS, IF THEY WANT SHARIA LAW, THEN THEY SHOULD MOVE TO A COUNTRY THAT HAS IT, STOP TRYING TO TAKE OVER OUR COUNTRY.

IF ALEX SALMOND ALLOWS THIS HE WILL BE THE BIGGEST TRAITOR SCOTLAND HAS EVER SEEN.

312

oder,

Scotland 12/10/2008 22:32:47
319 Timmy Laycock,

if one disagree`s with anything these days! some like you rock up with the usual tripe of being a racist, islamophobe,homophobes or some other insulting comment!

Racist scaremonger's or concerned 'white' Christians?

Only fools charge in were others fear to tread

tell the Christians of Southern Sudan they have nothing to fear Islam and they will tell you, you are one of the "useful idiots" they will also give you a glint of what Islam intends for your future as atheist
its available in the Koran the immutable word of god!
if you care to read it.

Scots law allows you to be atheist, Islamic law doesn't common sense should tell you not to be in a hurry to ensure your demise and all others like you! strange thing in this country these days is the total lack of it among a big part of the population.


313

oder,

Scotland 12/10/2008 22:51:03
Zish

I see you have disappeared from this debate, like all good Muslims when confronted with the "truth" rather than accept it you avoid it! your actions should at least confirm to posters who were skeptical that you are in fact definitely Muslim

As-Salaamu Aleikum!
314

bertie bert,

13/10/2008 00:24:21
Timmy Laycock,12/10/2008 18:07:08

What about the Muslim women and men who don't want to use these courts? That's a key point to consider. Because while in theory it's their choice, in reality - among the very traditional communities - it's not a choice at all. So if there's a domestic abuse situation for instance, or an issue of forced marriage (and British schools and government agencies have already reported on the rise of teenage Muslim girls pulled out of school and compelled to marry), then there's really no recourse for a woman who wants to get out of such a situation. Defying community norms in these cases can often mean further physical harm and even death (the so-called honor killings). This is not an exaggeration and it is happening in Britain (and in Europe generally).

For a woman who has traditional views and wants to use the courts, fine; they're there for her and her family to use. But for others who want to seek recourse elsewhere, in traditional British courts? Their options are now even more limited than before, when police and domestic abuse shelters were already doing a poor job protecting them; now they'll have to go through the legally binding sharia courts, which truly disfaviour women. While the majority of people in the traditional communities might be pleased with these developments, there are always that minority of individuals whose individual rights have been completely disregarded by a country whose government is ostensibly there to promote the rights of individuals.

Correct definition of 'moderate Muslim':
A Muslim who agrees with the goal of establishing the Caliphate under Sharia, but disagrees with the use of violence to do so.

Result: for the moderate Muslim, it's jihad by the heart, pen, and tounge (greater jihad), but not by the sword (lesser jihad).

Message for our leaders: Terrorism is only a method. Establishing a Sharia based Islamic state is the goal. Thus, you are giving away our land without fighting the
315

No_to_islam,

28/10/2008 22:33:26
I am disgusted that we are about to allow sharia law and islamic schools in Scotland. I am deeply opposed to this and heartened by the many comments here which show that many people are totally against this. The question is, what are we going to do about it? Ranting on here won't really help. What we really need is organised resistance. By this I mean a campaign to have our voices heard, not the islamic version of organised resistance which involves death to the infidels. Who is up for it?

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
RSS Feed of this article's comments
Delivery formats: RSS, Atom, Javascript & Email
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.