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Gordon Brown defends policy after soldier killings in Afghanistan

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Published Date: 05 November 2009
THE five British servicemen murdered by an Afghan police officer in Helmand province were named last night, as Gordon Brown promised to press on with the strategy of training and mentoring the country's security forces.
The Prime Minister told a sombre House of Commons that it was important to match the resolve shown by the armed forces, amid signs that political support for the Afghan campaign was fracturing.

Former foreign office minister Kim Howells, who chairs the intelligence and security committee, said the attack had struck a blow at the heart of the strategy of building up the Afghan police and army to take over responsibility for security from Nato forces.

He argued that the government would be better off using the resources it was spending on the campaign to strengthen anti-terrorism measures in the UK.

Ministers, however, insisted it was vital to deny al-Qaeda a base in Afghanistan and the mission remained essential to British national security.

The five men – three from the Grenadier Guards and two from the Royal Military Police – had just returned from a patrol with some of the Afghan officers they were training. They had removed their body armour and were sitting drinking tea with the Afghans when they came under fire.

A rogue officer, thought to be a member of the Taleban, had got on to the roof of the checkpoint in the Nad-e'Ali district of Helmand, where the soldiers had been working, and let loose with a machine gun.

As well as the five fatalities, six British soldiers and two Afghan police were wounded. They were airlifted to hospital by helicopter.

The gunman, who was shot in the leg by a senior Afghan police officer, fled on a motorbike.

Mr Brown said it appeared the soldiers had been deliberately targeted by the Taleban, precisely because they feared the success of the international coalition's "Afghanisation" strategy. He told MPs at Prime Minister's Questions: "Security will be stepped up where that is necessary, but we cannot desist from the practice which is absolutely essential for the future of Afghanistan and the security of our country, and that is training and mentoring the Afghan forces."

The British soldiers had been living and working at the police checkpoint for about a fortnight, as part of a team mentoring Afghan National Police (ANP) officers. The Ministry of Defence named the five who died as Warrant Officer Darren Chant, Sergeant Matthew Telford and Guardsman James Major, from the Grenadier Guards, and Acting Corporal Steven Boote and Corporal Nicholas Webster-Smith of the Royal Military Police.

UK troops are now thought to be involved in a hunt for the assassin. He was said by tribal elders to be a man named Gulbuddin, who had been working with the police for about two years. A UK military spokesman described the killer as a policeman who "went rogue", and said every effort was being put into hunting him down.

The men's deaths make this the bloodiest year for the armed forces since the Falklands War. A total of 92 have lost their lives so far in 2009. The death toll in Afghanistan since the conflict began in 2001 now stands at 229.

British, United States and Afghan commanders expressed deep regret over the incident and pledged that it would be fully investigated.

General Stanley McChrystal, the commander of Nato forces in Afghanistan, said he had received assurances from Afghan interior minister Haneef Atmar the shootings would be "fully and transparently investigated".

The Taleban has reportedly said it carried out the attack. A spokesman told ITV News: "We want to sow mistrust between the Afghan National Police and foreign forces."

At one point, Mr Brown said the Taleban had actually claimed responsibility for the attack, but Downing Street later sought to play down that assertion.

His spokesman said it had simply been "a general comment about what may be likely in a situation like this".

Meanwhile, a military expert warned that the latest deaths would lead to soldiers keeping their fingers "firmly on the trigger" while working alongside the security forces they are training to take over.

Colonel Richard Kemp, a former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, predicted that Tuesday's incident would result in British soldiers losing their trust in Afghan police and military.

Col Kemp, a former member of Cobra, Britain's national crisis-management committee, said: "It will undermine trust, certainly in the short term, until we establish exactly what happened.

"And it wouldn't at all surprise me now if there aren't a lot of soldiers, British soldiers in Afghanistan, with their fingers very firmly on the trigger when they're around Afghan police and military."

Major Jim Panton, chief executive of Scottish charity Erskine and a former British Army Air Corps helicopter pilot, said: "Imagine going out on a patrol this morning, working alongside the Afghan National Army and the ANP, and thinking, 'Is one of you in disguise? Are you going to shoot me?'"

Abdul Ahad Helmandwal, head of the district council in Nad-e'Ali district, said the soldiers who died had been drinking tea with Afghan officials when the firing began from the roof of the secure compound at the police checkpoint.

A tribal elder said the policeman assassin had originally come from Musa Qala, in northern Helmand.

"He had been working for the police for two years, and he graduated from the police academy (based in Kandahar] a year ago. He was from the Alozai tribe," the elder said. Most of the police in Nad-e'Ali are Noorzai tribesmen. The elder said Gulbuddin had been working for a checkpoint commander called Issaqzai, but had abandoned his position eight days earlier following a dispute.

A spokesman for the US-led training mission said all police in the district had undergone an intensive course, known as "Focused District Development", within the last year.

But Peter Galbraith, the former top US official at the United Nations mission in Afghanistan, said that the shootings were "not surprising" given that ANP training and recruiting had been "rushed" in the run-up to the presidential elections. British commanders and ministers have repeatedly spoken of the vital importance of training Afghan soldiers and police to take over security operations from coalition forces.

In a major policy speech in November, Mr Brown said: "To reach the point where international forces can return home, we must place a greater emphasis on building up the Afghan army and police."

This is not the first time ANP officers have turned against western forces.

Four weeks ago, an Afghan policeman in Wardak province killed two US soldiers on patrol before fleeing.

Last year, over a period of less than a month, Afghan police twice attacked US forces, killing two soldiers and wounding three others.

Mr Howells said the latest killings had dealt a blow to the heart of the UK's exit strategy of "Afghanisation".

The former minister said: "There are many people who have argued that there is only one way out of this for Britain and America, and that is to train up the Afghan army and police force so that they can become responsible for their own security. This is a real blow because it strikes right at the heart of that policy," he said.

Taleban infiltrating Afghan National Police 'at every level'

THE Afghan National Police (ANP) is an integral part of the US and UK exit strategy in Afghanistan, but doubts are emerging over its ability to oversee a secure civic society.

It is a force that is poorly equipped and remunerated. Corruption and irregularities in the system, however, mean many do not receive regular salaries; instead using their weapons and uniforms to extort civilians.

There are also a considerable number of drug addicts serving in the force.

Given all this, the idea of the ANP providing ordinary Afghans with a career is not a viable one. The organisation has an estimated drop-out rate of 24 per cent a year.

Yet the most destructive factor to the ANP's credibility is the Taleban enemy within.

ANP deputy chief Captain Haji Laljan has admitted that, despite the dedication of legitimate officers, some of his men defect to the Taleban, and he is powerless to stop it.

Captain Doug Beattie, who worked with the ANP during tours of Afghanistan, said local police officers were often paid off by insurgents, and he suggested that the force had been infiltrated "at every level".

He explained: "It is absolutely right to say that the Afghan police are infiltrated by the Taleban at every level, from the very lowest to the very highest.

"They're not really trained properly. They're really a militia, a tribal police whose allegiances are not necessarily to the government or even to the provincial governor.

"It is normally to their village or tribe or the area they come from."

The infiltration was also acknowledged yesterday by a spokesman for Prime Minister Gordon Brown.

"We do know there have been examples where the Taleban have infiltrated the army and the police," the spokesman said.

In a European Commission report last month, questions were raised over the quality of those officers being recruited to the 82,000-strong force.

It found that about 15,000 policemen were hired in the run-up to the presidential elections, receiving just three weeks' training.

Worryingly, it also warned that ANP recruiting policies had become less rigorous in dangerous provinces, such as Helmand and Kandahar, thereby increasing the likelihood of insurgents.

Young father 'loved his army job'

THE father of two young sons who was killed by a rogue policeman was described today as a "wonderful lad" who died doing the job he loved.

Sergeant Matthew Telford, of the Grenadier Guards, was one of five British soldiers shot dead yesterday.

Sgt Telford's job was training Afghan forces, according to his family.

His uncle, William Ferrand, told the BBC: "It was his job and he absolutely loved it. Everybody knows what a wonderful lad he was. It has devastated all of us."

Sgt Telford, of Grimsby, joined the army at the age of 16 and had been in Afghanistan since 20 September.

Sgt Telford leaves a wife, Kerry, and two sons aged four and nine.

"His two sons are going to be devastated and will miss their father," Mr Ferrand said. "Whatever Kerry wants, we will, as a family, make sure we do as much as we can to help her.

"We're a military family, but he was the first one to join at the age of 16."

Asked about his thoughts on Sgt Telford's deployment to Afghanistan, he said: "Nobody wants their family to go out there, but it was what he wanted to do."

Grim battle to save soldiers

THE first indication of British casualties comes with the Tannoy sounding an "Op minimise" around the camp.

The announcement means no communications to the outside world.

Within 15 minutes the first helicopter touches down.

Four ambulances bring four injured men to the hospital doors, where a swarm of medics and surgeons are waiting.

The men are mostly laid out on stretchers, some showing signs of movement, others barely conscious. They are hurried inside.

"That was good, guys, nice and quick," a medic says as they wait for another round of injured men.

Another Medical Emergency Response Team arrives in a Chinook.

The ambulances set off again, driving the 300 metres from the landing pad to the Emergency Department doors.

A call goes up, "It's a right turn, this one", meaning the casualty is to be sent straight to the operating theatre.

A soldier gives CPR as the casualty is wheeled inside.

Another casualty is taken in on another stretcher.

Inside the hospital, the staff attend to the injured, every man and woman occupied, each knowing exactly what needs to be done and doing it.




Page 1 of 1

 
1

Cynicus Unbound,

04/11/2009 23:46:47
This is surely the tipping point.

Murder under trust holes below the water-line Macavity's exit strategy; to build up Afghan security forces so that ours can withdraw.

Why should more of our boys be killed defending the corrupt Karzai kleptocracy?

If there are not secret negotiations going on with the Taliban then it is time to start them. Otherwise, we shall have to scutt;e like the Russians.
2

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 05/11/2009 00:27:27
What part of :

It is absolutely right to say that the Afghan police are infiltrated by the Taleban at every level, from the very lowest to the very highest.

"They're not really trained properly. They're really a militia, a tribal police whose allegiances are not necessarily to the government or even to the provincial governor.

Do the politicians not understand here ?
3

,

05/11/2009 00:36:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
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4

eDUCATIon,

05/11/2009 00:50:36
Apart from a similar incident involving US troops, Im surprised this hasnt happened more often. It isnt getting any easier for the boys out there......RIP.
5

,

05/11/2009 01:29:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
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6

,

05/11/2009 01:35:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
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7

Letters From Muscat,

edinburgh 05/11/2009 03:54:22
Don't think our politicians do understand what's going on. Except to deliver platitudes in Parliament every time there are more fatalities. British lives being wasted for a corrupt country.Talk and plan an exit strategy before more blood is shed. Poor kids acting as cannon fodder while rich kids stay at home? Is there an oil pipline in this equation?
8

Geoff,

sa 05/11/2009 05:18:22
The UK will withdraw from Afghanistan. Its vaguely defined mission will not have been accomplished when it does. So the question is-until then,how many more British lives and resources are to be tragically and needlessly wasted in this futile endeavour?
9

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/11/2009 05:18:47
My neighbours who are 2 scottish lassies trecked through Helmand and into Higher Ground only meeting hospitality and courtesty. Before the troubles. Dropping cluster bombs on these fine folk has alot to answer for!
10

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 05/11/2009 05:34:37
Thanks Tony Blair for bringing this monster to our shores, VOTE LIEBOR AND GO TO WAR...........
11

steve 1511,

aberdeen 05/11/2009 05:59:58
labour blair and brown and john reid have the blood of british service men on their hands,how many visits to the relatives of the dead and maimed have they made
12

Oldhabits,

Bristol 05/11/2009 06:41:39
"The organisation has an estimated drop-out rate of 24 per cent a year."

With that level of attrition, it is obvious we are simply training the Taleban. Having made them aware of our defensive tactics, it must make it all the easier for them to strike back at us.
Yet another Brown policy bites the dust!!
13

Jings MacCrivvens,

05/11/2009 07:12:52
Never thought I would see the day when someone in the Labour Party actually spoke some sense but Howells is absolutely correct in his realisation that his Labour Party is losing its war in Afghanistan big-time and it is now time to bring the troops home.
I suppose he is the exception which proves the rule regarding the stupidity of Brown, Bliar etc.
14

Ben Thehoose,

05/11/2009 08:01:27
Why are these lads dieing? No one sensible wants them in Afghanistan in the first place. Nations must sort themselves out without foreign interference.
15

McGubbligan,

Oz 05/11/2009 08:09:54
An important rule in gambling is to know when to quit and to never chase your losses. It appears Brown and company are prepared to do just that. Sadly they are gambling with with the lives of other peoples sons and daughters, unwilling to lose face and admit Afghanistan and Iraq were terrible blunders.
It should be remembered that Blair, Bush and Howard in Australia all had sons and daughters of military age when they committed their countries to an illegal war.
None of their offspring have been anywhere a war zone preferring to profit in the private sector while others lay down their lives for a lost cause.
How could anyone vote for these shameful people.
16

Alastair the First,

05/11/2009 08:13:47
Ask yourself why Brown refuses to pull out of Afghanistan. I'm pretty sure the real answer is "oil". Let's wait and see.
17

Oldhabits,

Bristol 05/11/2009 08:26:49
#15

"How could anyone vote for these shameful people."

The answer is no-one with any sense of decency.

Gordon Brown started out with a history degree, let us return him there..... 'MAKE GORDON BROWN HISTORY'
18

The Ayrshire Bard,

05/11/2009 08:59:35
The actions of the Taleban are deplorable in our eyes, but they are the actions of a people whose country is invaded by unwanted foreigners.
Go back in history and the actions of such heroes as William Wallace are little different.
He was a hero to Scots but a murdering traitor to the English.
Internal battles in far off lands should be left to themselves to remedy. We may not like the outcome but it's none of our business.
19

Skatedad,

05/11/2009 09:09:55
18 The Ayrshire Bard.

Spot on .It's none of our business. Let them sort out their own problems. We have enough of our own.
20

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 05/11/2009 09:24:59
Surely enough is enough? After the farce that was the Afghan election, and then this, we should be withdrawing our troops immediately. If Gordon Brown wants to boost his popularity rating, all it takes is a swish of his pen.
21

Toast,

05/11/2009 10:08:43
Troops out now,Brown has no idea what he is trying to achieve,he is just allowing our troops to be murdered in a country stinking of corruption,give the Taliban back their country on the condition that Al Quada are expelled,this is not our war
22

Garenne,

France 05/11/2009 11:05:52
Will the PM give us firm 1/2/3 year objectives for British and NATO politico-military involvement in Afghanistan: how many Afghan soldiers are to be trained, how many policemen, what Afghan command structure, what economic and infrastructure development? Then tell us how much of the Afghan population this is supposed to cover and how many square miles, plus his estimate of total and UK military and economic contributions; How many British casualties are forecast; How much this will cost the UK in all; How this will contribute to economic growth in the UK and to the UK's security; Will he tell us what policies are being pursued to overcome the Afghan government's almost total lack of legitimacy and credibility. What his criteria are for success under all these headings?
Will he tell us what Britain's commitment is to current NATO/US/UK clandestine and open military and paramilitary intervention in Pakistan? What limits he has set to Britain's involvement in and commitment to any further escalation in Pakistan; How he intends that Britain will contribute to help stabilise the political, economic and military situation in Pakistan and legitimise the Pakistani government in the northern provinces of Pakistan...?

It is no longer enough to wave Bush's anti-muslim crusader banner.
23

Ewan Randall,

05/11/2009 11:26:11
(#21) – (Toast) –What makes you believe that the Taliban would care to make a deal like that?

Would they not believe that they had the upper hand and do as they pleased?
24

Gordon S.,

Edinburgh 05/11/2009 11:30:24
#18

I can't help thinking you've got something there...
25

Dave from Skye,

fairly obvious 05/11/2009 11:41:55
Clearly there is no attainable "mission" in Afghanistan. We are busy training a vast army and police force which cannot possibly be financed by Afghanistan itself. It will be funded by the West, and rightly seen by Afghans as a proxy mercenary force propping up a puppet dictator.

And that's the BEST scenario our politicians are aiming for.

A more realistic scenario is that - after years of bloodshed and ruinous financial loss - we declare that the Afghan government can stand on its own, and pull out.

... whereupon the Afghan government collapses within a month, and we're back where we started. Only now the Afghans will have a good reason to hate us.


26

The Answer,

Glasgow 05/11/2009 11:54:50
Brown Blair Darling Reid one thing in common , all scottish!!

27

Jo Public,

05/11/2009 12:07:07
#26 The moron is back. What you on about?

The rest of the Lyebour Cabinet, including the War Cabinet, and the thieving hangers on - one thing in common - all English! As irrelevant as your idiotic post.
28

Jo Public,

05/11/2009 12:08:50
I believe all those who defend Afghanistan should do their bit and serve some time on the front line. This includes people like Brown.
29

Jo Public,

05/11/2009 12:09:21
defend our troops being in Afghanistan I mean.
30

baroda,

Spain 05/11/2009 12:30:38
Brown wants to stay in Afghanistan and uses the reason to protect the Uk from more terrorism. Up to now the bombings in London were caused by people from Leeds not from Afghanistan. Just watched the news just now and they show the Afgani police handing over weapons and uniforms in a prearranged meeting to the taliban. Our troops have no chance as they dont know who the enemy is and there will be more murdered every day. We dont need Brown to make a case for staying there to save his and Conman Blairs face. Get the troops out Know before any more lose there lives for nothing.
31

Davie08,

Edinburgh 05/11/2009 12:35:45
This is war number four in Afganistan for us and it would appear we still haven't learned a damn thing. There is no way we are going to impose western 'democracy', a term more devalued by the day, on Afgan society. All we are doing is propping up a corrupt collection of crooks with our soldiers lives. A policy that is making us so many friends around the world.
32

The Answer,

Glasgow 05/11/2009 12:56:04
#30 baroda,Spain 05/11/2009 12:30:38

"Up to now the bombings in London were caused by people from Leeds not from Afghanistan"

muslim's from Leeds would be more a better discription.

England has a fifth column of muslim's, and a fifth column of scots, however very soon the lion will roar.
33

Frank Spencer and Betty,

05/11/2009 13:19:36
#30 and #32

Rubbish! Maybe if you go and do a bit of investigation you will see that it was our government that did the London Bombings. Nothing to do with terrorists. Funny how they are so against an independent inquiry into this.

The US government is being sued by a Dr Judy Wood and Dr Morgan Reynolds for putting out lies with regard to 911 plus a bill is going through the US Congress calling for a new independent inquiry into 911 based on these two Dr's evidence. Nothing to do with terrorists here either.

The UK and US governments murdered their own citizens no one else! www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com
34

Davie08,

Edinburgh 05/11/2009 13:26:11
#32 Is that 2/5ths of column or a fifth and sixth column? Careful there ansy your paranoia is showing.
35

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/11/2009 13:29:36
`If Gordon wants this WAR won, we will do it! Us clannish, cligué. tribal poeple understand Afghanistan to a T.

But it's a loosing gane as we see it. Just count the body bags.
36

Ironrat,

Perthshire 05/11/2009 13:35:49
I hate it that our troops are being killed. I cant abide the Labour government and I'm not convinced that invasion was the right solution in the fisrt place. However, we ARE there now and sadly if Afgahnistan falls Pakistan will fall. That means nukes in the hands of jihadi's and THAT's the reson we need to keep fighting.
37

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/11/2009 14:09:02
..And USUK will lose! We're watching this; fully capable on rifles (not the Eton chunt) and "blow pipes".

We're not stepping in!

"After Kosovo, I'm not fighting in any of Britains stupid wars again."

From Billy the Para who fought in the Falklands, and could tell you the true story. Want to try us?
38

Hardrations,

05/11/2009 14:09:43
Quote: # 33 The UK and US governments murdered their own citizens no one else! www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.con/ End Quote

Always your kind will to suck up to the terrorists, than face reality. I would imagine your favourite expression is to say, " Peace in our time" and wave a white flag of surrender.

And yes I see no reason for any troops, UK,Cdn,USA, etc to be in Afghanistan. The terrorists are in our countries. Let the Afghanies stew in their own mess

39

Jay Kay,

05/11/2009 14:16:40
What we need in this country is a mass protest, marching to the houses of parliment en-mass to pul these blighters out from thier safe warm cosy offices and make them fight on the front lines for a wee while, however our corrupt and greedy MP's fear more over losing their expenses and other cushy perks, meanwhile joe squaddie is being blown apart by IEd's all for Gordon Brown, Both him and Blair should be hauled into the dock over this whole affair.

All the time Heroin continues to flood the streets of the UK, so we really are making a difference eh!

The blood of every serviceman killed is on Brown and Blairs hands, we the people should be out in the streets in our millions, its a pity the apathetic public no longer care.

We should bring all the troops home now and to hell with them all.
40

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 05/11/2009 14:38:14
The public do care, but the Government aren't listening.

Afghan poll: majority want troops home
Updated on 05 November 2009
By Channel 4 News

Seventy three per cent of people wanting British troops to be withdrawn from Afghanistan, a YouGov survey for Channel 4 News reveals.
41

Jo Public,

05/11/2009 14:42:48
#40. Not that Gordon Brown would know this. He's too busy talking to the media about his favourite biscuits.
42

danbob,

05/11/2009 14:57:15
32# The lion will roar. More like a timid meowww
43

danbob,

05/11/2009 14:59:08
33# I see why you use the moniker Frank Spencer.
44

Frank Spencer and Betty,

05/11/2009 15:15:10
#38 Hardrations

You are the type that will not face up to reality. Please explain Mr Expert how:

How terrorists managed to put out fake videos of planes disappearing into the Twin Towers against the laws of physics.

How terrorists managed to get the Twin Towers to collapse at free-fall speed from top to bottom against the laws of physics.

How terrorists managed to get an aluminium airplane to go through, not one, but six reinforced concrete walls at the Pentagon against the laws of physics.

How terrorists managed to get cars to flip over on to their roofs blocks away from the Twin Towers.

How terrorists managed to get entire car parks of cars to burst into flames blocks away from the Twin Towers.

How terrorists managed to blow up the exact same underground trains and bus on exactly the same day, at exactly the same time as they were to be in a terrorist exersize by the authorities.

How suicide terrorists managed to blow up the trains from underneath the floor.

How suicide terrorists managed to get shot dead miles away from the tran and bus explosions.

Could go on and on but maybe you could also explain why the government is so aganst an independent inquiry into the London bombings.

Are you saying that you are more expert than Dr Judy Wood and Dr Morgan Reynolds who are suing the US government. The world is full of ignorant people who do not want to know the truth but would rather believe the lies being spouted by whatever cult political party or government they idolise.
www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com


45

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 05/11/2009 15:44:18
#44
How did the japanese mange to fake kamikaze planes penetrating armoured warships in WW2? It is do with momentum and speed. A boeing 767 at 400kts will quite happily penetrae glass and concrete. Only the outer wall at the pentagon was penetrated. keep wearing the tin foil hat.
46

Frank Spencer and Betty,

05/11/2009 16:12:12
#45

Rubbish, It is against the Laws of Physics (Newtons) for an aluminium airplane to penetrate steel and concrete and it does not matter the speed. Most of the buildings were steel and concrete. So what you are saying is if a fly flies fast enough it will go through a windscreen - utter tosh!

No Kamikaze plane penetrated the armour of any warship. British carriers were armoured and that is why they carried on after being hit when the US carriers had wooden decks and they were severely damaged when hit - again utter tosh!

It was not only the outer wall that was penetrated at the Pentagon, how did the whole lot collapse then if that was the case. Again impossible for an aluminium plane to go through reinforced concrete.

Do you think these experts who are suing the US government are doing so without proof. Keep wearing the dunces hat - it fits!
www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com
47

Fitba Krazy,

05/11/2009 16:15:40
6, jafra loo,

Yeah, sure looks like it. They've taken away the link explaining the globalists' crass contempt for independent nations.

Why would they do that if we who support independence are being treated equitably?

Well, as we all know they dislike us to a high degree.

They hate their plans for the universe being questioned and shown up for what it is, a class system with them running it.

We are not allowed on many an occasion to show an alternative view as their erasure of my post at No. 3 proves.
48

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 05/11/2009 16:25:32
#46

So the 13 steel destroyers sunk by Kamikaze attacks in WW2 "defied the laws of physics"? The 5 battleships severely damaged?
49

Libertarian!,

Devon 05/11/2009 16:29:13
These young men's lives have been sacrificed by a parliament off over 600 MP's and not a single one has a son or daughter serving in any of the wars they have deliberately created. What do their newspaper allies
mean by murder?
Having served in the Royal Marines during the 2nd World War to keep the UK free from Hitler's Nazis should we have welcomed them ashore if they had landed in the UK or killed them?

Or,would we have been branded murderers?
50

baroda,

Spain 05/11/2009 16:41:35
Another soldier murdered today in Aghanistan. Brown neither cares or is sorry.Untill the public go on the streets to protest nothing will be done.The government does not even attend the repatriation ceremonies when the soldiers are flown home.Labour should be thrown out at the next election.I posted earlier but did not use the word muslim as i thought the pc lot would delete it.
51

,

05/11/2009 17:03:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
52

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/11/2009 17:27:00
-- A boeing 767 at 400kts will quite happily penetrate glass and concrete.

But not usually to bring down a steel framed building like the WTC mother. A trained pilot would not be flying at 400 knots at 100M. Then a Saudi Arabia passport just fell down.
53

Frank Spencer and Betty,

05/11/2009 17:38:57
#48

No aluminium plane penetrated the armour or steel of any ship. The plane was only the means of delivering the bombs carried to the target. It was the bombs that sunk the ships and caused most of the damage.

Still saying that a fly can penetrate a windsceen then!
www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com
54

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/11/2009 17:55:20
It would save alot of mmoney if we could just fly an airlane into a steel frame instead of taking a month to lay a controlled demolition. The WTC was a typical Rockefellar job: built cheap; stacked high.

As it fell.
55

Temple,

Italy 05/11/2009 18:30:47
Vietnam 1962-1973/Afghanistan I° 1979-1989
Afghanistan II ° 2001 - ????
56

Warden Resurrected,

05/11/2009 19:44:58
Frank Spencer and Betty
44-Please tell me those laws of physics you are talking about. Let me tell you something about the laws of physics, the threads of a spider’s web is pound for pound as strong as steel and yet my hand brushes it aside. Had aluminium on aircrafts been the strength of the aircraft alone the landing gear would tear through the fuselage every time the plane landed.
57

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/11/2009 20:45:05
There are not laws, there are observation of physics. As is:

www.holoscience.com/

58

Hardrations,

05/11/2009 21:04:46
Frank Spencer and Betty.

My only question to you, is " Where did you take your village idot course?".

As soon as you pull your head out the sand, you'll see sunlight. In the sunlight you will see reality. In reality lies the truth. Not some fictionalized version of events. You give far to much credit to governments to succed in doing these things.They can barely govern as it is
59

Frank Spencer and Betty,

05/11/2009 21:49:31
#58 Hardrations

Are you saying that it is fiction that these Dr's are suing the US Government for putting out lies with regard to 911?

Are you saying that it is fiction that there is a bill going through the US Congress based on these Dr's evidence for a new independent inquiry into 911?

Are you saying that it is fiction that the UK Government is refusing to have an independent inquiry into the London Bombings?

Are you saying that you are more qualified than Dr Judy Wood who has proved that it was a Direct Energy Weapon that turned the Twin Towers to dust?

It is you that is happy to remain the village idiot - too lazy and stupid to go and seek the information in order to get the truth. www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com for video links for those who do seek the truth.
60

danbob,

05/11/2009 21:51:50
I cannot belive what I am reading. Are people really questioning whether a boeing 767 had the energy to bring down the WTC and damaged the pentagon. Unbelievable.
Firstly the WTC was not physicaly brought down by the planes themselves. When they struck the aluminimum frame of the aircraft penetrated the frontage and continued through the building to the steel support columns that supported the building in the centre. It was the weight of the engines and the steel beams that supported the wing structure that did the majority of the damage to the building itself. But still it stood.
As the plane travelled into the building the fuel tanks ruptured creating a fire that reached 1000deg C at it's core. Steel will weaken at this temperature and from then on the clock was ticking. The steel eventually gave way. First the cross beams or the cross beams that were left after the initial impact. and then the core itself. Once this happened the pan cake effect took hold. The weight of one floor bringing down the next and so on.
As for the pentagon. The outer wall absorbed a tremendous amount of energy but again the weight of the engines and wing structure did the damage.
Same as what flattened Sherwood cresent in Lockerbie. Engine + wing structure = massive energy when travelling at speed.
61

Frank Spencer and Betty,

05/11/2009 22:11:11
#60 danbob

Showing your ignorance danbob. Go watch the videos that have proved all you have posted to be rubbish at the link I have given at #59 above.

If you want to remain in ignorance then that is up to you as all you are doing is making a fool of yourself.
62

Hardrations,

06/11/2009 01:22:03
Frank Spencer and Betty,

Obviously you have a problem facing reality. What a sad little mutt you are. And please, if you're going to make a disparaging remark, please show some originality. Now crawl back into the dark hole you came out of with your bible in one hand and a porno magazine in the other, muttering and mumbling about plots, plans made by evil deomocratic governments.
63

Hardrations,

06/11/2009 01:24:46
Frank Spencer and Betty,

Yes, yes I see my spelling mistake. It should read, " democratic".
64

Hardrations,

06/11/2009 04:13:59

Frank Spencer and Betty


Are you saying that it is fiction that these Dr's are suing the US Government for putting out lies with regard to 911?

Are you saying that it is fiction that there is a bill going through the US Congress based on these Dr's evidence for a new independent inquiry into 911?

Are you saying that it is fiction that the UK Government is refusing to have an independent inquiry into the London Bombings?

Are you saying that you are more qualified than Dr Judy Wood who has proved that it was a Direct Energy Weapon that turned the Twin Towers to dust.

I just read this again. Are you for real? Pull your head out of your butt man. There is a real world out there.
65

Geezabrekjim,

06/11/2009 18:56:08
Frank Spencer and Betty

The laws of physics suggest that it would be impossible to stick one's head up one's own ar$e, but clearly you've proven that's not the case.

By the way, quit posting the link to your imbecilic website. Nobody cares. Moron.

 

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