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Boys 'can learn healthy lessons from toy guns'

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Published Date: 29 December 2007
THE advice may go against the instinct of almost every parent, but new guidance says young boys should be encouraged to play with toy guns.
According to recommendations from the UK government, playing with pretend weapons at an early age may encourage an enthusiasm for learning.

In the new guidelines, nursery staff are told to resist their "natural instinct" to stop boys playing with weapons. But some teachers have criticised the advice for nurseries in England and Wales, warning that toy guns "symbolise aggression" and adding that the advice amounted to gender stereotyping.

The guidance – Confident, Capable and Creative: Supporting Boys' Achievements – was issued by the Department for Children, Schools and Families. It says: "Sometimes, practitioners find the chosen play of boys more difficult to understand and value than that of girls.

"They may choose activities in which adults involve themselves least, or play that involves more action and a greater use of the available space, especially outdoors.

"Images and ideas gleaned from the media are common starting points in boys' play and may involve characters with special powers or weapons. Adults can find this type of play particularly challenging and have a natural instinct to stop it.

"This is not necessary, as long as practitioners help the boys to understand and respect the rights of other children and to take responsibility for the resources and environment.

"Creating situations so that boys' interests in these forms of play can be fostered through healthy and safe risk-taking will enhance every aspect of their learning and development."

Boys fall behind girls in educational development at an early age, a pattern that continues throughout their later years at school. The guidelines aim to help boys improve by "creating the right conditions for boys' learning" before they start formal primary education.

Making use of boys' interests can help them to become more engaged in their education, the document suggested.

But the National Union of Teachers in England yesterday criticised the advice on toy guns. Steve Sinnott, the NUT general secretary, said: "The real problem with weapons is that they symbolise aggression.

"We do need to ensure, whether the playing is rumbustious or not, that there is a respect for your peers, however young they are.

"The reason why teachers often intervene when kids have toy guns is that the boy is usually being very aggressive."

Chris Keates, general secretary of the NASUWT teachers' union, warned that nurseries who followed the advice risked incurring the anger of parents.

She said: "Many parents take the decision that their children won't have toy weapons.

"In addition to that, I think this is a clear example of gender stereotyping. I do not think schools should be encouraging boys to play with toy weapons."

Martin Johnson, deputy general secretary of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers said: "In Scotland, sentiment about this may be much more delicate because of Dunblane.

"But we all know, whatever our views, children will play guns and we have to allow children to grow-up and they learn to grow up through play."

Scottish teachers took a neutral stance on the issue.

Ronnie Smith, the general secretary of Scotland's biggest teaching union, the EIS, said there had been no calls for such guidance north of the Border.

He said: "It is not an issue here and it would be a difficult area to give guidance on. Different people would have different takes on it, depending on circumstances."

Beverley Hughes, the Westminster children's minister, defended the advice as taking a common-sense approach to the fact that boys like boisterous, physical activity, such as pretending to be superheroes or playing at "Star Wars characters with their light-sabres".

She added: "Although noisy for adults, such imaginary games are good for their development, as well as good fun.

"The guidance also impresses upon staff the need to teach children that they must respect one another and that harming another person in the real world is not acceptable."

A Scottish Government spokesman said there were currently no plans to create guidance on toy guns in Scotland.

He said: "It is something that would be at the discretion of the individual provider."

Is it a good idea to let your child have shoot-outs with pretend weapons?

YES

SUE PALMER CHILD DEVELOPMENT EXPERT


THIS is a reasonable approach. Little boys' play is very different from little girls' play. Boys have a natural aggressive impulse and this sort of play helps them deal with this.

We are trying to control children much more than we ever have.

They are being watched and controlled and bossed around by grown-ups to a remarkable extent these days.

Play is one of the ways children learn to get along with each other, and one of the ways little boys have always done this is through play-fight. It seems likely it is one of the ways boys become socialised.

If you look to lion cubs they do the same. They learn a lot about their place in the pack, how to get along with others and how to collaborate through this play.

Because nursery staff tend to be female they recoil from the 'bang, bang, you're dead', type of play, but this is interfering with a natural socialising process.

Really experienced nursery teachers will tell you that the behaviour of boys and girls is hugely different.

Little boys have been playing cops and robbers since time immemorial and haven't grown up to shoot people.

It is just play and it allows them to get a lot of stuff out of their system.

If they are stopped from playing, it might affect the natural course of their development.

NO

KATHLEEN MARSHALL CHILDREN'S COMMISSIONER


I TAKE my cue from the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Article 29 sets out the aims of education, which include: "The preparation of the child for responsible life in a free society in the spirit of understanding, peace, tolerance, equality of sexes and friendship among all peoples, ethnic, national and religious groups and persons of indigenous origin."

There must be serious concern about any encouragement of guns as a plaything for young children.

Who are they being encouraged to shoot? "Red Indians" (persons of indigenous origin)? Islamic terrorists (implications for their views of our own Islamic communities)? Or fleeing women (as in some video games)?

I acknowledge some children tend towards violent games.

I do not know whether this is due to nature or nurture. The long tradition of violent fairy tales that have terrified and delighted children for centuries could be evidence of either.

Whatever the source of that impetus, we have to decide how to respond – whether to repress it, divert it or encourage it.

It seems strange that we rail against child soldiers in other countries, and yet would encourage our own little ones to bear weapons in play.

Some child play may be violent, but we should not encourage violence as child play.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 December 2007 9:08 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

weeshooie1,

Australia 29/12/2007 00:18:31
Playing cowboys and indians as a kid never did me any harm, and I'll shoot any barsteward that says it did :o)
2

Allan(handofgod137),

29/12/2007 01:02:02
Ha Ha, another PC myth shown up for the utter sh*t it is.
3

Scullion,

Canada 29/12/2007 01:13:52
What father hasn't cringed a little when he sees his son play with a doll then breathe a sigh of relief when the unfortunate doll has its head torn off in the lad's desire to see what's inside?
To think that children can't discern reality from fantasy is an affront to them. I howled at the "3 Stooges" but never thought that poking anyone in the eye was a sound idea in real life.
We still need gun control though.
4

Bill, Dunblane,

29/12/2007 01:15:14
Wanna try that one where I live?
5

scoobie,

ici 29/12/2007 01:15:15
it is rubbish never trust a woman's opinion when it comes to fire arms and imminent warfare and other peoples kids it helps them get mugged a lot easier or the usual john wayne. i heard locals in Edinburgh mention that some young volunteers wondered how their army six shooters worked and refused to fight feeling they had been mugged into it by tinsel town and pine wood those that came back would never buy British again.
6

Bill, Dunblane,

29/12/2007 01:17:59
4 Scully,

Sorry, 5 was meant for the previous posters. Anyway, Who's on first base?
7

Kipling,

29/12/2007 04:06:11
Toy guns but not plastic knives?
8

Sassenach Observer,

29/12/2007 11:02:18
Ms Marshall is one of those worthy individuals who believes that children's rights are paramount - provided those rights correspond to her own political beliefs.
9

Toom,

29/12/2007 11:20:31
I think there is the factor that the 'cowboys and indians' and WWII movies which which some of us saw as kids and emulated in our play, were in fact simple morality stories where the heroes and winners were the good guys. Even in the gangster movies, the bad guys always got their come-uppance at the end. That might be different to much of the extreme gratuitous violence which the media turn out today. It's not he toy weapons per se; its the form of play, and what that teaches you, which matters.
10

BK,

Cyberspace 29/12/2007 11:29:26
Yes, like how to grow up and become cannon fodder for evil politicians. Teach them from infancy that killing is normal and acceptable, and they will obediently go and slaughter innocent by the hundreds of thousands in Iraq - and maybe be killed themselves in the futile process. War should never be normalised - children should be taught that it is the province of the most evil and despicable scum on the planet.
11

Crewedaddy,

Kent 29/12/2007 11:29:49
Annoyingly I find myself caught in the middle. Most males have a natural combative nature. This is different from an aggressive one as it's just another form of competition. Maybe there is no need to change but observe closely instead. Those children who display a an uncommon or over-zealous delight in combative games being watched rather more closely than others as these may well be the ones who have difficulty in separating fact from fiction in the future.

As regards child soldiers, it's precisely because a child doesn't possess an emotional rationality that child soldiers are effective.
12

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 29/12/2007 11:54:38
Amazing. Common sense from the government. Let's hope it sets a new trend in 2008.
13

Justy,

Edinburgh 29/12/2007 12:34:16
Boys should be allowed to be boys. They should not be emasculated by an envious and sad group of politically correct followers.

Justy.
14

little scouse on the prarie,

Spring 29/12/2007 12:51:32
We see the same 'feminist'PC agenda in the USA, often refered to as the 'chickification' or 'pussification' of our male offspring. There have been cases where five year olds have been suspended fron kindergarden for drawing what 'could be ' construed as a gun!
It is men who have stood by and let this happen. Male school teachers are quite rare here now, is this the case in the UK?
Send the PC b1tches packing, we will always need young men to defend our countries, and this is no way to raise men.
15

Gothic Rose,

29/12/2007 13:03:38
Its a BIG mistake to generalise.Long live Peter Pan,
Cat woman, and, Billy Elliot. Not forgetting the Cotton Club.
16

Neil,

Glasgow 29/12/2007 13:15:06
The article starts

"THE advice may go against the instinct of almost every parent"

which is to confuse an instinct, which is instinctive, with a learned response. Political correctness, even when it is a good thing, is always a learned response.
17

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 29/12/2007 14:00:22
Its odd that education systems regarded as the best in the world: South Korea, Japan etc are also ones in which boys perform significantly better. Hopefully these nations never down their education to suit some PC agenda.
18

Fresh_Thinker,

Fife 29/12/2007 14:35:41
I never let my son play with toy guns - and never buy any military related toys... I find it disgusting people profit from tools of violence. And with very young children being kidnapped and forced to fight with REAL guns in REAL wars, encouraging our children to 'play' at this is discraceful. would the Gov be so keen if the kids started playing terrorist games & pretending to be suicide bombers - bit too close to home i suspect??

But what should we expect from the London war-mongering government, I guess they need to introduce our kids to the idea of war at a younger age... fewer people with a developed brain are choosing to fight in the current spate of illegal wars.

19

Theo,

Richmond 29/12/2007 15:10:21
I find it very upsetting that no one so far has even mentioned teaching firearm safety!! Firearms are and will always be a fact of life. People need to realize and accept this and understand what to do. When a young one expresses a interest in firearms make sure he/she is taught respect for the firearm and let them know there are safe ways to treat a firearm. To forbid something is to make it all the more desirable to the young one involved. If the current generation had been taught "responsibility and not deneiability" our world might be very different.
20

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 29/12/2007 15:27:07
Fresh_Thinker,Fife #
Now it is going to be interesting to see what your kids get upto behind your back!
And when this PC world runs out of cotton wool.
21

Artemis,

Embra 29/12/2007 16:06:37
If kids aren't allowed to play with toy guns, they use sticks as pretend guns. Of course children should be prevented from being overly aggressive with each other, but pretend gun play hurts nobody. Kids seem to be so restricted these days - they don't seem to get any time to play out in the streets and waste ground any more so they don't learn how to interact with each other and solve their own squabbles.
22

Scotch man,

29/12/2007 16:06:44
"Who are they being encouraged to shoot?"

Adults who display shooting as cool act.
Adults who deals with guns to make money.

Will the children be satisfied with only toy guns as they grew older?? It develops to have real and shoot.
23

Scotch man,

29/12/2007 16:16:19
Some play may be violent, but we should not encourage violence as play.
24

Aeternum Vale,

Wellingborough 29/12/2007 16:38:45
Why stop at toy guns? Perhaps we could have a torture set, (or should that read forceful questioning), complete with water-boarding gear and sleep deprivation goodies for the little darlings.

Better still would be the extraordinary rendition play set, keep them silent for hours.

How about a 'rape the village girl and then murder he whole family 'Blackwater' branded play set' with realistic lumps of fresh blood soaked human flesh to scatter around at the end of play.

And for the girls there could always be a cute little baby, horribly disfigured and maimed because of Depleted Uranium exposure in the womb - but cute non-the-less.

A latex rubber head wound replicating the injury sustained from a high velocity bullet will also no doubt be a popular choice of the sort of parents who think toy guns make a suitable gift for a child.

Could all be such fun and who knowns; may help with recruitment for young fellows to join-up with the new EU Army due to be kicking-off for real in about 10 years time and seeing action not long after that.
25

Helen,

29/12/2007 16:42:55
Dave from Barra, Your male chauvinism is breathtaking. I cannot believe the sexist drivel you are spouting. As a pacifist and a Christian I don't believe any child male or female should ever be given toy weapons to play with. There are plenty of other things children can play with. I wonder whether people in Dunblane or other victims of shooting would be so keen on handing out toy guns?
26

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 29/12/2007 16:45:09
#31, a strange post which seems to have nothing to do with boys' play. However, it isn't as daft as the argument from Kathleen Marshall, the Children's Commissioner.

> Who are they being encouraged to shoot? "Red Indians" (persons of indigenous origin)? Islamic terrorists (implications for their views of our own Islamic communities)? Or fleeing women (as in some video games)? <

Ms Marshall, these are children. Children playing. Were you never a child yourself? Had you no brothers or boy cousins or other boys you played with?

Get a life, please.
27

Aeternum Vale,

Wellingborough 29/12/2007 17:01:16
#34 - Urban Guerrilla, If my missive at #31 was a little subtle for you perhaps it is because you do not have enough whoosh between your ears to make an action-man scale replica grenade go fut let alone pop - if you get my drift.
28

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 29/12/2007 17:06:58
#36, sorry. You've lost me.
29

MichScot,

USA 29/12/2007 17:18:19
It's about time they realize that boys and girls are different! My brother is as sweet a guy as any woman could hope for--not being prejudiced here-- and he grew up with guns. Parental attitudes of right and wrong are the major influence to teaching children, and good moral standards are essential.
30

,

29/12/2007 17:33:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
31

Aeternum Vale,

Wellingborough 29/12/2007 18:07:28
#36 - Urban Guerrilla. Well dear chap if you are lost by such a simple discourse perhaps your opinions on the merits of children being encouraged to play with toy guns are not to be taken as being the result of any great gravitas.

Better still we should reflect that if your are typical of the kind of intellect that advocates children play with guns then it is bound to be not any greater idea as any other random thought buzzing around inside your mind at random.

If you do not know why I refer to or what is meant by any of the terms I allude to including; 'Water-boarding' 'sleep deprivation' 'extraordinary rendition' 'Blackwater' 'Depleted Uranium' and the 'new EU Army' then I suggest you get a little more informed as to the causes and results of violence and war before you next spout off that guns make good toys for children.
32

Scotch man,

29/12/2007 18:08:55
#29

In actuality, I believe gun shooting act shouldn't belong to those games category.
"Games entertain, guns threaten."
33

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 29/12/2007 18:20:42
#40, have you thought about taking a course in writing simple English? I'd try to answer you, but I can't decide if your discourse is meant to be imaginative fiction, surreal stream of consciousness, parody, a reduction to the ridiculous of a case either for or against toy guns (I've no idea which, since it isn't clear from what you write whether you're in favour of, or against, guns as toys for boys), or elaborate literary whimsy.

In short, I've got no idea what you're trying to say. Sorry!

Any chance of a translation?
34

Kenya,

29/12/2007 19:28:31
so it's ok for young males to play at shooting other human beings!and we are supposed to be c.ivilized
35

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 19:39:48
The stifling influence of women on boys is incredible. The backlash is already underway, however. I used to support feminism for balance but now I am resorting to the chauvinistic side to restore the balance.

I played cowboys and indians, cops and robbers, Gerries and British, and also Confederates and Unionists when I was a kid. Sometimes we wanted to be one. Sometimes we wanted to be the other.

Of more concern to me is the fact that my Scottish son felt a need to hold my willie whenever we went for a pee together. You see he was being brought up by his mother.

I'm going to Edinburgh tomorrow to pick him up and do not know if she will let him out. He's 13½. Christ, man, I was hitching around Scotland at that age.

Feck feminism, namby pamby single parent households and let our boys grow up as boys.
36

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 19:41:33
Will y was moderated so I had to spell my penis as willie.

Geez, what are we cumming2?
37

Tom in Belmont,

Belmont 29/12/2007 19:51:28
G.K. Chesterton answered all this nonsense in the Illustrated London News (7 Jan 1922) "On Dangerous Toys", dealing with Neo-puritans like Aeternum Vale much more charitably and humorously than some here.
I will be less so: More evil has been accomplished in this world by twisted utopians like AV than has ever occurred from normal healthy youngsters playing with toy weapons. Post #3 said it all.
38

Quiet John,

Tinley Park 29/12/2007 19:52:12
We are men. Some things are hard wired in to our thought process. We ignore this at our peril.

Raise the boy to be a man with strong moral character. Raise him to be a protector, not a destroyer. But the attempts to emasculate men from birth are madness. Crime and violence is not caused by material items. (Perhaps by the lack of them, but not by them.)

39

Kenya,

29/12/2007 19:56:19
45.you have a bee in yer bonnet matey,but before you turn to the dark side please remember woman have to fight for even the slightest equality!
40

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 19:58:04
Aye well, Tom in Belmont @47, I am a baby boomer and can assure you that Chairman Gordon @3 is talking crap about his generations. It is the children on the baby boomers who instigated the crep we are seeing today.
41

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 20:01:22
Kenyin@49. I bow to your superior knowledge... and if you believe that.....
42

barbour,

Perthshire 29/12/2007 20:06:23
As soon as firearms are mentioned then "Dunblane"is dragged up again,as terrible as the incident was,the knee jerk reaction of banning handguns did not have any effect on national gun crime statistics.
Its not the weapon that kills,but the twisted brain behind it.You can't ban all "weapons"!!!!
43

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 20:15:47
Maybe we should just ban the Black Watch. Christ, the government in England tried to do it.
44

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 20:17:51
Ah, but didn't the government in England establish the Black Watch?
45

Kenya,

29/12/2007 20:18:58
Funny how men who leave a relationship shout the loudest as to how their partner brings up their male off spring!
If you don't like it,stick around.
46

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 20:20:06
Guns are Roses by any other name - let our kids play with them.
47

Tom in Belmont,

Belmont 29/12/2007 20:20:48
#50: I'm a boomer, (b. 1957) and while i cannot speak for Britain, there was very little youth violence in America in the 1950s and early 1960s, and almost no youth gun violence until the 1980s. The explosion of drug abuse and the disappearance of fathers from families caused the mess we now have here. No American studies have ever linked toy weapons to youth violence (and we have plenty of nits over here who'd like to prove it). Even 20 years' research on violent video games has come up uncertain.
Look to your own friends: any of them turn nasty from playing cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians? Any?
48

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 20:27:33
The funny thing about Scottish justice is the alarming rates of custody awarded to the mother. It's as if all judges have daughters (intrepid journalisism required here}.

And yet all we hear about is the low conviction rate for rape. Whether or not it reflects reality the law must be changed for statistical purposes.

Christ, man, what is this? Give boys toy guns.
49

yockel,

29/12/2007 20:29:50
The only gun nutter I knew from childhood was the only kid I ever new who wasn't allowed to have a toy gun. His Ma was PC back in the 60s, he was making really good replicas in the school metal shop by the time he was 14. The rest of us had got over it by the time we were 10. The Victorians were probably right to send their kids to boarding school to get way from the incfluence of women.
50

Crewedaddy,

Kent 29/12/2007 20:29:55
I notice it's always "playing with guns". What did young boys do before guns? Run around playing with pretend bows and arrows? Maybe, difficult to say really. I wonder what the influences on children back then would have been? The games I remember playing were role-playing ones, and 100% in imitation of films or tv programmes as they were almost our sole references. This was 20 or so years after the end of WW2, something that was fresh in the memory of too many. There were also very graphic reminders of the horrors of warfare on a massive scale; far too many men of the age I am now with missing limbs and I don't think any of us were immune to what had caused these injuries. But it stopped at the role-playing. I worry that there are so many different media influences now for impressionable kids. What are the reasons behind the increasing use of guns and knives by youths on each other?

51

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 29/12/2007 20:30:14
What is it with these Anglo-Middle class feminists ?

I reckon they need an aggressive man to give them a good solid *******.

The Norwegian method is by far the most natural. Let kids run around in the forest till there about seven, they have a guide, who answers their questions and let them enjoy the new experience of life.

52

Kipling,

29/12/2007 20:34:25
#58. I suggest , (1) Stop your son drinking from the water supply with all its oestrogen content ; (2) have battle games (or some sort of sport) with him when you see him to show him how to control his anger. That's one of the things male kids lack when dad isn't raising them.
53

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 29/12/2007 20:37:23
We have Fists, then swords, then guns and fighting.
These are mens business.

Women have babies, nests and nurturing and manipulation.
These are womens business.


Aaaaah, some things will never change.
54

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 20:37:46
57, Tom. I was born in 1949. My German son is 33 and I was a late starter. I would say that the social disruption we are talking about was caused by the early grandchildren generation of the baby boomers.

Baby boom actually began during the war.
55

Kenya,

29/12/2007 20:41:36
If you guys are a sample of fatherhood,no wonder judges give the women custody of the kids!
56

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 29/12/2007 20:45:21
62 Kipling, 29/12/2007 20:34:25
#58. I suggest , (1) Stop your son drinking from the water supply with all its oestrogen content.

Never EVER cook anything in plastic, don't buy any food in plastic.

When you begin to look into all the ingested oestrogen in modern life it very quickly looks fully intended to quash the male in man. Instead what happens is repressed unhinged isolated guys festering looking for an out let.
Extremely unhealthy.

Women should open their legs more often.
57

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 20:45:24
Every generation produces youths who are spoiling for a fight.

No war? Tough. Fancy Afghanistan? Eff off.

World War.... here we go, here we go.
58

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 20:52:06
Sorry Kipling and Keyna but I cannot relate to a word either of you write.
59

Kenya,

29/12/2007 20:55:32
66. you are disgusting,and a sad excuse for a man.
60

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 29/12/2007 20:57:01
29/12/2007 20:41:36
If you guys are a sample of fatherhood,no wonder judges give the women custody of the kids!

That will have more to do with the pro-femminist society today, and the fact women get a great deal of the 'returns' from the media conditioning.This is deemed acceptable.
Men however don't get the 'returns' and as a result there are a greater deal of men who know that it is nothing short of oppressive attempting to 'fit in' to this totally un-natural mould of the modern world.This results in less confidence to be "A MAN" as this is apparently no longer acceptable.

You watch the backlash in the next 20 years.

The only way for kids to grow up balanced is with a mother and a father in community in freedom.

P.S. the chauvinist comments were jokes, though many a thing said in jest.....
61

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 29/12/2007 20:58:27
All men are brothers

Hence War.
62

Alberto.,

29/12/2007 20:58:31
How soon before the American system of some 'Child' bringing in a 'real gun and ammunition', probably because of lax security by parents who own guns - or whatever, simply to show his mates he can ‘go one better' than they can - it is bound to happen with such a 'free' attitude to such 'alleged' toys and having fun!

Yes! I played with guns as a youngster (a long time ago, and in a different World than we see and know about today) and we knew we were ‘playing’ Whilst there may have been much trouble in the World - like today, where people were shooting each other - for all sorts of reasons, which we didn’t know about (certainly no Telly and very little radio then) - and it certainly was not happening in ‘our street or at our corner shop’ and, as in many cases today - simply not being done ‘Just for fun - nothing on the Telly, or I was bored - so what!'

From what we read in reports in the press, it seems bad enough, especially for all those employed in schools, that some children, with their standard of behaviour - largely due to Government legislation it seems, are even let in (‘You can’t / daren’t touch me for it or I will call the Police!’) What a legal state for an education establishment to be placed in - but then again, seemingly completely in Line with New Labour and their mad policies!

Will personal searches before entering schools (it’s even late for such activity now!) be allowed, to ensure the guns are really toys, and what form will the legislation take to define such a matter - and if, heaven forbid, a real 'gun' with ammunition is discovered - or worse still, not discovered (most likely!) - what then?

This Government activity about “The preparation of the child for responsible life in a free society” (EU?) in the spirit of understanding, peace, tolerance, equality of sexes and friendship among all peoples, ethnic, national and religious groups and persons of indigenous origin." would seem to clearly display the 'Not joined up thinking' t
63

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 29/12/2007 20:59:27
69 Kenya, 29/12/2007 20:55:32

C'mon then, I'll pan yer lights oot. LOL
64

Kenya,

29/12/2007 20:59:55
jock, that's your trouble,you have fixed ideas on how boys should be raised,maybe you should give other ways a chance.
65

Rainbow,

Australia 29/12/2007 21:02:35
The usual PC rubbish about gender stereotyping. Well boys are different from girls - haven't you ever noticed? Of course we should deter aggression, but it comes in all sorts of shapes and sizes. And girls can be just as aggressive as boys - haven't you ever noticed? Playing with a stick and pretending that it is a sword or a gun is just play. No need to get your knickers in a knot.
66

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 21:08:45
Keyna@74. Do you think you know how to raise my boys better than me?
67

weeshooie1,

Australia 29/12/2007 21:09:05
It's good to see so many comments on a particular thread. Why is it that, since the format for the paper changed, so many of the people who used to comment on these pages have disappeared. I myself, no longer even receive my email deliveries on a daily basis, and have to access the paper through Google. I have tried to contact the paper on several occasions and, to this day, I have never received a reply or any offers of help to reinstate my deliveries. It is so frustrating at times that, I just feel like going out and shooting at something :o(
68

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 29/12/2007 21:09:35
I'm in the understanding that in most societies that operate in reasonable harmony with nature, communities are the big thing, the women teach the girls,the men teach the boys. The elders oversee the bigger picture.
Indeed often women are not allowed anywhere near men when performing 'rites of passage'and vice versa.

Quite right. This cultures respect and humour.
69

Teofilio Cubillas,

Lima, Peru 29/12/2007 21:22:46
My two healthy, well balanced boys have been brought up without playing with plastic machine guns and pistols.

They much prefer quantum laser blasters.
70

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 29/12/2007 21:23:05
After childhood...........
Introduce a compulsory two years of "survival training" for teenagers with lead to the military for those who wish to continue in the army, giving a populace with more common sense and a respect for all instruments of hunting, pest control and war.
This would generally result in folk more capable of going out into the world with real confidence, as the heavens are you canopy.

I believe the Swiss have it sussed, their families are a armed and from an early age are taught the respect of arms, They have the lowest gun crime in europe and have the important advantage that they can defend themselves if aggressors step over the line. The populace is the potential army.
71

Kenya,

29/12/2007 21:23:23
jock,I never said that,but at least stop putting girls and boys into categories,girls can make just as good a car mechanic as a boy,and boys can make excellent kindergarten teachers.
72

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 21:26:35
Kenya. What categories did I put girls and boys into?
73

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 29/12/2007 21:27:10
81 Kenya, 29/12/2007 21:23:23

How many men give birth ?

How many women go hunting?

Its a balance.
74

Kenya,

29/12/2007 21:30:18
78. Are you in the real world? girls need their dads as much as their mums,and boys need their mums as much as they need their dads!
75

Beverly,

Arcadia 29/12/2007 21:31:38
Commissar Marshall is a humourless twerp who's hell-bent on gelding all the boys (and men). C'est typique, non?

Boys need to learn how to defend and protect their families and loved ones, not cower in a corner, fearing for their own lives, powerless to do anything against an intruder or foe. It's been that way since caveman days.

And to those who say we should all rely on the police, I would say to you that there's a reason they're nicknamed "the chalk-outline boys." They can't get there in time. And the felons aren't going to stand around and wait for the gendarmes to show up.

Finally, anyone who thinks that boys' natural boisterous aggressiveness when playing needs to be squelched and extirpated is a class-A primary control-freak. They'd really prefer all the boys in little pink dresses, meek and mild and manageable. Yeesh.
76

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 21:34:05
Kenya, how's this for accuracy in categorisation today?

Boy meets girl. Have baby. Not married. Boy have no rights. Girl lord it over boy.

Boy meets girl. Marry and have baby. One year later mother throws father out. Mother lords it over father as she gets all the rights.

Mother finds boyfriend who is just a male patsy with no real influence over child(ren).

Real or not, Kenya?
77

Kenya,

29/12/2007 21:35:45
83.you can't put going hunting in the same category as giving birth,women can go hunting if they choose to,men on the other hand can never give birth!
78

Kenya,

29/12/2007 21:43:17
86.you seem very bitter,so I'll just say this,boy meets girl,have baby,then boy doesn't want to know,leaves girl to bring the baby up on her own,while he is free to ruin some other poor girls life!
79

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 21:46:27
Women hunt in supermarkets. I know their body language and can outstare a packet of steaks long enough to make the most ardent "hunter" get her trolley behind my basket.
80

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 21:49:48
Kenya. You are acting so sugar and spice. In total denial of the the Mr Hyde of the feminist side of things.
81

weeshooie1,

Australia 29/12/2007 21:51:06
Alberto #72,

Yes, it was certainly a different world back then. I got my first air-rifle back in the early 50's and just couldn't wait to take into the woods for a bit of fun. The fun soon stopped when I eventually managed to hit a target for the first time. Unfortunately, it was a beautiful Blackbird and, since that day, I have never even pointed a gun at a living creature. When I arrived in OZ in the late sixties, there was already a well established gun culture which centred around groups of young men 'going bush', hunting roo's or feral pigs. These outings were usually sanctioned by the farmers on who's land the young men did their shooting as, in the case of the Kangaroos, which were eating up valuable food that the farmers needed to feed their stock and, in the case of the pigs, which caused untold damage by their rooting around. This also saved the farmers a lot of time and energy, not to mention the cost of ammunition. Somewhere down the line, within a generation or so, there was a gradual change in the responsibility of some of these young men as to their choice of targets and farmers were forced to put a stop to allowing the perpetrators access to their land. Anyhow, to cut a long story short, things have gone downhill badly ever since and, this being such a large country, with so many people growing plantations of drugs in what used to be almost inaccessable spots, these growers (sometimes biker gangs), started using firearms to defend their investments, which, in turn, spread to the cities also. Things have spiralled downwards ever since with so many different ethnic gangs vying for dominance in different sections of the community, resulting in gang wars. God help us all.
82

Kenya,

29/12/2007 21:54:27
90.Think you'll find the women who turn on their Mr Hyde face,have usually been let down very badly,it's a self defence mechanism.
83

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 21:56:38
Yep, women play at hunting. Tchhhhh. Should be banned.

Supermarkets are dangerous places for males.
84

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 21:58:13
Kenya. You sound like a spin doctor without a life.
85

CanAmLen,

Raleigh North Carolina 29/12/2007 22:14:31
Now 62, my childhood friends who did police service often reminesce about how we spent countless hours playing WW2 ,Cowboys and Indians.We used our fathers helmets and 303's with actions removed ,hurled mud grenades at each other in the trenches of new housing developements.There was nothing more exciting than a direct helmet hit with mud -no blood.
All us of hunted upland game,all earned our gun safety certificates after much safety training on hunts with our dads. None of us ever shot anything we didn't eat, nor pointed a loaded gun at anyone we hunted with.
There are many great women hunters they too can join in and share in teaching the safe use of firearms.
I taught my children toy gun safety at age 5 and age six with supervision ,plinking at tin cans to show they that bullets do damage.
I taught my Scouts gun safety at a proper club.
Shooting clay pidgeons hones skills of co-ordination and is a lot of fun.Don't take that away from future generations.
Britain has a legacy of great firearm manufacturers and history of the sport of hunting.Let's let the parent's make that decision at home before the children march off to the recess field!
86

Doreen,

AKA Horrible Cankers in the Cyber Shebeen 29/12/2007 22:36:20
Ho...ho...ho...the usual suspsects I see, 'Man with plank of wood (never mind chip) on shoulder and 'Captain Inadequate' with his usual 'man with issues' take on how male children should be raised. Let them play with guns I say....and plastic knives...preferably with blood red paint coating the blade....funny that, been trying to get my nephew wee Shugee a plastic chib for long enough but no joy. Let us continue to glamourise violence because, by jove it does us no harm. Yes although the 'Cowboy and Indian' films of yesteryear are no longer of interest to kids, todays equivalent...the 'blast em to smithereens' variety is just as innocent...as are the computer games where they can kill till their little heart's content.

By the way boys you were right all along..it is an evil feminist conspiracy on an international scale...you should hear my evil laugh echo round the bog when I go in for a wee wee...as all those female hormones from my pill go flushing away....into your water supply......heh heh heh...HEH HEH HEH HEH HEH HEH HEH...HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH.....
87

Doreen,

AKA Horrible Cankers in the Cyber Shebeen 29/12/2007 22:37:33
And this set up is absolute guff by the way....who thought of that?...give them their bloody books for Christmas.....
88

Jock Tamson,

20 paces from Doreen's milk bottle 29/12/2007 22:47:38
I pee'd in your milk bottle from 20 paces. You have to squat on mine. He      he    he              he      he               he
89

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 29/12/2007 22:51:46
Its soya milk from a carton love...and I'd probably put your milk bottle to better use and no worries about where its been...incidentally I dont sprinkle all over the throne either some of you lads really are such mucky pups.......heh heh heh heh heh....
90

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 29/12/2007 22:52:33
and that was 100 ya wee dancer!!
91

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 22:53:14
98. Chairman. Yep that's a story in itself, surely. Think you'll find that the offspring from the baby boomers were the spoilt brats who started this present scenario off. As a baby boomer I was taught all about the austerity of my previous generation. Waste not food etc.
92

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 22:55:33
I can pee in a soya milk carton from 30 paces.
93

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 29/12/2007 22:59:40
And if I get preggers I can squirt the real deal at your from 30 paces...so come ahead ya wideo if its a square go yer eftir..its a square go ye'l git....nae runnin fae ma female hormones noo like a big lassie....
94

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 23:06:58
Doreen, A shag's out the question. I'm picking my son up tomorrow. Besides, you're much too vulgar for me.
95

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 23:10:15
Doreen. You don't know what you've missed. I can squirt teasponfulls for Scotland.
96

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 23:14:59
Chairman, maybe it started with "burn the bra".
97

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 23:22:29
Holy scheisse, Chairman, it did start with burn the bra. Jane Fonda and all that. Glad she never got a teaspoonfull out of me - in spite of Barbarella.
98

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 29/12/2007 23:25:42
Oh heavens..why my dear Jock...you misunderstood you silly sausage...no no no..I have had many a misfortune to wish that I had spent the night with a milk bottle instead of 'sorry example of male of the species' that one regrettably chose, having unfortunatly worn ones beer goggles for too long...As for your 'squirting comment' why the mind boggles...and you call me vulgar..I can assure you that I have not entered a skitter squirting competition since I was at least 6 years old....still if it bolsters your masculinity dear boy...boast away....boast away....

Of course it didnt start with 'burn the bra'...no..you must look to the evil of the suffragettes and the havoc they wreaked on the lives of innocent men...naw wait a minute...Yes I have it...you must look to the harlots of the bible and the havoc that they wreaked on the lives of innocent men..particularly that Eve besom, made oot o' a rib, the cheek on her...then she goes and leads him right intae sin...why the dirty wee...and that slutty Magdalene...no a scarf tae be seen oan that heid.....talk o' the steamie so she wis....
99

Jock Tamson,

Doreen's gap between the ears 29/12/2007 23:35:28
Doreen.

Sorry, pal, but I don't care what you think. I have already had an intelli gent conversation with 3 young ladies tonight. Face to face.
100

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 29/12/2007 23:41:39
And would that be that fabulous new group 'Pam and the digit sisters?' with their latest rendition of 'tug of love'??..??..??..
101

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 23:43:44
It was Hand Sandwich with "The 5 Knuckle Shuffle".
102

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 29/12/2007 23:57:24
Mmmmmh...rumour has it...should be renamed 'Resurrection shuffle'........
103

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/12/2007 23:58:35
But seriously,folks, the only one of the three to give me a full chest on hug was the one who has just come back from Amsterdam with us.

Me? I'm normal and don't need to explain myself to the Doreens of this world.
104

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/12/2007 00:00:45
Doreen, in footballing terms - regarding the Old Firm - that could be the ref selection shuffle
105

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 30/12/2007 00:10:51
Oh aye.....'full chest on hug'...sounds very manly...sure she wisnae packin doon below Jock auld son?...'back from Amsterdam'..never been bit ahv heard the rumours..anything goes like eh?....or mibbe she wis jist aff 'er t*ts on the waccy baccy and you looked like Tom Cruise oan stilts or sumthin....been there...done that...oh aye...its as bad as the beer goggles...and combine the two...dont do it girls or ye'l wake up wae Chewbacca chewin tobacca in the bed nixt tae ye.....

Glad tae hear thit yer 'normal' though Jock....
106

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/12/2007 00:21:41
As you wish, Doreen, but I'm afraid a shag's out of the question.

Must go to bed. I have to pick up my son tomorrow if his mummy lets me - and I think that is relevant to the thread.
107

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 30/12/2007 00:32:20
Nitey Nite Jockey......ah do like a good shag maself...fir ma pipe that is...auld habit ah picked up fae ma faither...still use his...auld fecker...it wis aw he went an left us whin 'e snuffed it...still he taught us how tae arm wrestle an that fair impresses the fellas doon the pub let me tell ye....anyroad aye..ah hiv tae sign oot masell...ma ither hauf is comin hame the morra an ah must hiv a bit o'a clear up afore 'e gits in...hide the boattles an aw that..heh heh heh heh....its fifty fifty in this hoose by the way...he wears the apron an ah wear the troosers...'es a good laddie really....
108

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/12/2007 00:36:39
Doreen,

You're a cyber transvestittee. Night, night.
109

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/12/2007 00:37:44
Guess which word was moderated?
110

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 30/12/2007 01:03:18
You cant leave me alone babee....I'l leave a space on my bicep for 'Jock Tamson, Scotland, Caledonia,Alba,Normal'...there's enough room fir it...
111

weeshooie1,

Australia 30/12/2007 04:29:41
Doreen #'s X,

Hullawrrer Canky, long time no see hen, hows trick's? Ah see ye've found a new sparring partner. Gled yer still gettin offers, yer a hard wummin tae ignore when yer in full flight. Huvnae seen AJ aroon fur a while. Mind you, ah've had a lot o' trouble wi' the new site :o(
112

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 30/12/2007 12:46:28
Hello weeshooie 1 aye it would seem that there is less chance of being naughty now and that stricter controls will ensure my getting my books at some point. I'm fine thanks pal, hope its the same for yourself and Mrs weeshooie...AJ should be a daddy again by now, I'm waiting to hear whether I should be buying the bairn a luger replica or a Tiny Tears..I probably wont be around for too long as I've things to do in 2008 but hope that you have a good one....think I've already had a dalliance with Jocky and hope for new blood...heh heh heh heh heh heh....
113

Reckless,

Fife 30/12/2007 16:28:17
Guns are good. I started shooting at the relatively advanced age of 14 years - the Lee Enfield 303 was almost as big as me. It didn't do me any harm. In fact, I think all teenagers should be compelled to learn firearms skills at school. They need to learn how to safely discharge a powerful service revolver or high power hunting rifle so that they can gain a healthy respect for guns. I'd go further and make all teenagers learn how to strip, clean and reassemble the weapons too. Children need to treat guns as dangerous tools that demand respect.

Boys will use whatever is available to play war games. They'll tear the head off Barbie and use it as a handgrenade if they're stopped from having real toys. Likewise, girls dress toy guns in little pink baby clothes and treat them like dolls if they're prevented from having girls' toys.

Don't listen to the liberal left. They're just a bunch of hysterical morons who jump at their own shadow. We don't need any more effeminate noofters in our soft country. Britain used to be a global leader in a man's world.
114

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 30/12/2007 16:57:17
Aye right you are pal....get a grip...you live in cloud cuckoo land...youngsters are already chibbin each other right left and centre, gun violence is the order of the day in American schools and streets...it is already here and its only a matter of time before a bullied teenager walks into a school in Britain and starts blasting...children do not need to treat guns as anything because children should NOT have access to lethal weapons such as these...you are obviously of the loony right who does not live on this planet. Of course kids could grow up to respect guns..just as they do knives..they can view them with awe, fear and respect but that will not necessarily stop them from using either in anger or fear some day...

We will never prevent crime nor murder in our society...why help it along a little by introducing kiddies to real guns, I mean, have you seen what they are watching on tv? in the cinema or online?...its not 'war games' now pal, its macho gangsga games, stealing cars, car races and blasting away at anything that gets in your way.

If you think that it is 'masculine' to pack a gun and effeminate not to.....then gawd help us all.......
115

Reckless,

Fife 30/12/2007 21:31:07
Oh come on. Lethal weapons are fine when the child is under responsible adult supervision.

I remember the good old days of the early 80s when, as a 12 to 16-year-old I could ogle the ladies in the underwear section of my mum's mail order catalog, then turn to the gun section where I could dream about owning on or more of the air rifles and 12 gauge shotguns that were freely avialable. My dad bought me a US army knife when I was 12, and this gave me hours of wholesome fun. Needless to say, I grew up to love women and guns - no sign of homosexuality in my family. Nowadays schools and colleges are inundated by limp-wristed Billy Elliot types who wear make up and want to study media. If that's what you modern girls want, then fine. Just don't cry when your man decides to go with other men.
116

henrymanchester,

UK 30/12/2007 21:41:43
Is this rubbish news? What is this, drop the dead donkey week or something??
117

Reckless,

Fife 30/12/2007 21:43:22
BTW, have you ever felt a 44 Magnum? If not, you can't comprehend the awesome feeling that you get when you c0ck the hammer back and sqeeze off your first round. Boom! It's as good as anything else you can think of. Some blokes like fast cars and some like the smell of cordite and gun oil. Girls can understand it.
118

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 30/12/2007 21:58:40
129...Aye there's nothing like a man thats secure in his sexuality...

You're a belter mate...didnae know ye goat rednecks up in Fife...suprised the auld bible isnae gittin a smack...

Whit kind o' Catalogue wis that by the way that your mother had..knickers in one section and guns in the other?...do tell cos it sure as hell aint nuthin I've ever heard of....sounds a wee bit like a sexual fantasy to me..

The only Magnum I have slobbered over is the choccy covered ice cream variety and if you get your kicks slobbering over the 44 calibre phallic variety then whatever gets you through the night...this girl cant understand it and I am so glad my well adjusted (apart from his harem of boyfriends) partner does not need something as embarrasingly macho and phallic as a gun to fondle...

Something tells me we just might have a bored troll on the go....
119

Allan(handofgod137),

31/12/2007 00:49:08
Bill it was a long time ago, get over it. I would have had more sympathy for your loss had you not all jumped on the "ban handguns bandwagon" instead of agitating to find out exactly which politician interfered and allowed a totally unsuitable individual to keep firearms. ( Small hint - look left )
120

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 31/12/2007 13:38:37
127Reckless,Fife 30/12/2007 16:28:17

Interesting points, my father used a 303 extensively, and could hit a target nearly a mile away.

Doreen uses this maxim, just because some men behave badly, means women should behave worse?
121

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 31/12/2007 17:19:59
Maxim...aint that a lads mag?...you are embarrasing...get over it.

ps...happy new year...hope you had a nice Kissmass

 
 


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