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Army's lack of helicopters blamed for Afghanistan death toll

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Published Date: 12 July 2009
DAVID Cameron yesterday said that the government's failure to provide enough helicopters for our troops in Afghanistan was a "scandal" at the end of a week that saw the loss of 15 British soldiers.
Opposition politicians stepped up their attack on Gordon Brown's handling of the conflict, claiming that he had starved the Armed Forces of the resources needed to tackle the Taleban.

Facing a barrage of criticism for his government's handling of the conflict, the Prime Minister last night attempted to defend his foreign policy following a week that has served as a terrible reminder of dangers faced by our forces on the front line.

The Prime Minister insisted that British troops are achieving their objectives to drive out the Taleban, amid growing concern about the rising death toll and his political leadership.

Brown was forced into action as opposition politicians demanded a rethink on strategy and members of the public prepared to protest outside Downing Street tomorrow to call for the withdrawal of British troops from Afghanistan. Last night, Conservative Party leader Cameron said: "It is a scandal that our forces still lack the helicopters they desperately require to move around in Helmand.

"Promises of more helicopters in the future are not enough. More helicopters are needed today. More helicopters would save lives."

Shadow defence secretary Liam Fox claimed that the spending decisions made by Brown when he was Chancellor had led to the problems being faced by our troops in Afghanistan today.

Speaking to Scotland on Sunday, Fox said: "The government made a catastrophic decision in 2004 when they actually cut the helicopter budget by £1.4 billion in the middle of two wars. The bottom line was that Gordon Brown was never willing to fund Tony Blair's wars and, as a consequence, decisions have been made that have turned out to be catastrophic to our armed forces.

"Brown was to blame, particularly when it comes to the shortage of helicopters. That was a Treasury decision when Gordon Brown was Chancellor."

Faced with comments like that, Brown had little option other than to go on the offensive.

In a letter to the senior MPs on the Commons Liaison Committee, released last night ahead of his appearance in front of the committee this week, Brown acknowledged that people had questioned his strategy, but the Prime Minister emphasised that he believed it was the right one.

As 3,000 British troops attempt to clear out the Taleban in Helmand in Operation Panther's Claw, the Prime Minister said he remained committed to fighting terrorist networks from Afghanistan and Pakistan in order to "prevent terrorism coming to the streets of Britain".

He continued: "It has been a very difficult summer – and it is not over. But if we are to deny Helmand to the Taleban in the long term, if we are to help Afghanistan and Pakistan to defeat this vicious insurgency and prevent the return of al-Qaeda, then it is vital that the international community sees its commitment through."

The human cost of the government's commitment to the war has been high. The deaths of five soldiers on the same patrol last week brought the death toll to 184 – a figure that now exceeds the 179 British troops killed in Iraq.

Those five deaths were included in a spate of eight killings that took place within 24 hours as the fighting intensified at the end of last week. Last night it emerged that five of the eight dead soldiers were based at Ballykinler, Co Down, Northern Ireland.

Two of the eight were named last night. Rifleman Daniel Hume, 22, of 4th Battalion The Rifles, was killed in an explosion while on foot patrol near Nad-e-Ali in Helmand Province, while Private John Brackpool, 27, of Prince of Wales' Company, 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, died from a gunshot wound following a battle with insurgents near Lashkar Gah.

Brackpool, a father of one who would have been 28 yesterday, was described as "superb" by his comrades.

Lieutenant Colonel Doug Chalmers, his battle group commander, said the Arsenal fan from Crawley, West Sussex, "was easygoing, hard-working and had that kind of waterproof smile that kept morale going when things got tough".

Rifleman Hume, from Berkshire, had "found his place in the world", according to a statement released by his parents Adrian and Wendy. They said:

"We have lost a son and a best friend, his death has left a huge void in our lives. We are fiercely proud of him."

The Taleban's increasing mastery of improvised but sophisticated explosive devices has made every foot and vehicle patrol in the badlands of Afghanistan a potentially deadly journey.

For years, military experts and the government's critics have warned that the lack of aircraft to ferry troops has placed them at risk, while the inadequate protection offered by British armoured vehicles has been blamed for unnecessary deaths.

In his letter, Brown said he knew there was "particular concern" about vehicles, but he said that £1bn had been spent in the past three years to provide 280 Mastiffs, which offered far greater protection than the much-criticised Viking armoured vehicles.

The Prime Minister also claimed that helicopter capacity had doubled since 2006. But his claim has to be balanced by estimates from military experts, who believe that there are only around 20 British helicopters operating in the war zone – a figure that is far short of the number required to support the 9,000 troops there.

According to General Sir Mike Jackson, the former head of the army, the quality of the night goggles, body armour and weapons available has improved. The main threat to safety comes from transporting troops.

"The boys would say the personal kit is outstanding," Jackson told Scotland on Sunday.

"Where the difficulty comes is in manoeuvre – movement – you can do it by helicopter you can do it on the ground. They both have risks."

Jackson also suggested that the government had blundered by turning down a request by commanding officers for 2,000 more troops at a critical time in the war.

Last week, Lord Guthrie, a former chief of defence staff, criticised the government for failing to invest in the armed forces and revealed that the government had turned down the call for reinforcements.

With some understatement, Jackson said: "That is a contentious issue, of course. We had General Charles Guthrie's statement that 2,000 additional soldiers requested by commanders on the ground appears to have been turned down by the government. Well, that seems to me to be unfortunate."

The Prime Minister attempted to answer charges that he was sending ill-equipped forces to war by producing figures showing that defence funding had increased in the past few years.

Brown said: "In addition to the defence budget, reserve funding for Afghanistan has increased from £700 million in 2006-7 to £1.5bn in 2007-8 to £2.6bn in 2008-9 and over £3bn this year – demonstrating that we have continued to ensure that this operation has the financial backing it needs."

Brown tackled the helicopter issue by saying that more Merlin helicopters would be deployed, although he admitted that it would take time to train crews and adapt equipment to the conditions in Afghanistan.

"Despite the tragic losses, morale remains high," Brown said. "I can report the assessment of the commanders on the ground: that the current operations are succeeding in their objectives.

"They are having a marked impact on the Taleban in central Helmand and will improve security for the population in the run-up to the elections and will allow the longer-term work on governance and development to begin."

But, according to Brown's critics, part of the problem with this war is that the precise objectives have become muddied. Fox said: "The government needs to establish clearly what our objectives are and I think we need to have far better clarity in that and clear benchmarks so we can determine whether we are being successful or not.

"At the moment it is not that we lack strategies; it is that we've got too many strategies. We have the United Nations strategy, a Nato strategy, an American strategy, an Afghan strategy and they're not all the same. This needs to be done at a Nato level, describing what it is we want. I think what we want is clear: an Afghanistan that is stable enough to maintain its own internal and external security free from external interference."

Yesterday, Angus Robertson, SNP's Westminster leader and defence spokesman, said that the option of complete withdrawal should at least be considered.

Although his remarks, fell a long way short of the language used by his leader, Alex Salmond, when in 1999 he described tactics in Kosova as "unpardonable folly", Robertson's views reflect growing public concern.

"The UK government has a real challenge now to make the case for continuing operations in Afghanistan in the medium to long term," Robertson said.

"I don't think there is any point carrying on unless there is a proper strategy, a proper objective and a likelihood of success.

"The notion that you are only going to secure your objective militarily is wrong. It is going to be a mix of military, political and diplomatic, all of which must involve Pakistan."

He added: "Let's have a major rethink. That does have to involve considering whether one remains in the medium or long term in Afghanistan. A re-think has to look at all the options."

Read Col Bob Stewart's analysis here


Page 1 of 1

 
1

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 12/07/2009 00:26:03
Maggie Brown will print or borrow money to bail-out bankers and financial institutions, but won't properly fund the army to protect the troops.
2

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 12/07/2009 00:53:50
Do you think that the UK can afford to buy helicopters??

http://tinyurl.com/n8eld2
3

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 00:59:03
There would be no British deaths in Afghanistan if there were no British troops in Afghanistan.

Broon and Cameron, why are they there? Please remind me.
4

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 12/07/2009 01:25:07
#3
Are you my father??
5

Shape to Shoot,

12/07/2009 01:28:23
david cameron has sunk lower than any of his predecessors in trying to gain political capital from this.
Most of the soldiers are being killed by improvised bombs concealed in areas where soldiers go on patrol.

Extra helicopters won't make a blind bit of difference....the taliban are getting smarter in their tactics basically. Not one serving or ex-serving army officer has said that extra helicopters would help.
6

Shape to Shoot,

12/07/2009 01:30:32
3

Because if we withdraw, the taleban will take over and allow al-qaeda to set up training bases from which they can launch terror attacks around the world...that was why we went in in the first place.
7

,

12/07/2009 01:40:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

,

12/07/2009 01:44:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 01:50:19
6, Shape to Shoot. Who told you that?

4, For Scotland's Future. Has your O positive been spilt in the name of imperialism? Either as a victim or aggressor?

6. Same question to you.
10

donald,

glasgow 12/07/2009 06:12:02
Broon claims that he is in Afghanistan to stop terrorists attacking GB. Talk about doing everything back to front.

Muslin terrorists are attacking Britain because British Nationalist terrorists are attacking them.
11

steve 1511,

aberdeen 12/07/2009 07:07:14
david cameron and nick clegg speak the truth when they say our troops are ill equiped,why do we have to borrow helicopters from the yanks when we need to do heavy lifts of troops and equipment,because our troops are short of them,ask the men who fight in down town helmand they all state the same,the men at the killing end of this farce
12

Greyhound Welfare,

South Wales 12/07/2009 08:21:26
Huge numbers of Heliopters did not prevent the defeat of the USSR at the hands of the Afgans. Why does our government have any of our troops in Afganistan it is only a testing ground for the arms firms. We should not be there the same as we should never have been in Iraq. Both wars were an invasion of legal countries. They were and still are a massive drain on our resources let alone the numbers od deaths, injuries to youngsters who are convinced they are fighting for the UK itself when neither country has been a threat to the UK until we invaded them even though the general public said no invasion of either country. We could not control Northern Ireland until their leaders got together and said enough is enough.
13

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 12/07/2009 08:34:14
#6
Then, by your assessment, this was will never end. "We" are trying to eliminate an indigenous population with a religious belief in what they are doing, and who are willing to die for their cause. The Taliban may be linked to al-Qaeda, but they are not al-Qaeda.

Just like Israel's recent foray into Gaza; do you think that reduced the Palestinians commitment to fight one iota?

Do you think Britain won the "war" in N.I.?
14

Korgi,

Kelso 12/07/2009 08:58:29
Whether or not we should have forces in Afghanistan is a valid question worthy of discussion. However given that we do have forces there it seems incredible that the government is blamed for the death of every soldier. This is the nature of war - people get killed! Do we really expect that we can fight the Taliban and kill them all without incurring casualties?
15

Marian,

12/07/2009 09:12:01
More of Brown's chickens are now coming home to roost with the confirmation that opposition politicians are no longer prepared to play his game of keeping quiet over what is actually going on within the UK military in Afghanistan.

The UK military can only do their best with what they have been provided with but are facing a needless uphill struggle because of and incompetent strategy, inadequate numbers of troops and helicopters, inadequate training for the kind of foe they are facing, and inadequate and dangerous and useless equipment thanks to him.

Just as it is with everything else he touches this is another monumental disaster for the UK.

As is typical of his despicable political nature he is also now trying to deflect criticism of the way he is conducting the war by implying that the criticism of him is really a criticism of the UK soldiers who are fighting for their lives.

Cameron and the other opposition leaders must make sure that Brown is not be allowed to get away with any more of his lies and deceptions over Afghanistan.
16

qohldr,

12/07/2009 09:13:13
#14
The Labour Party clearly supports the murder of innocents in Afghanistan as it has singularly failed to rein in its leaders.
Thats an interesting line of thought, no member of the Labour party has fired one shot or killed one person in Afghanistan.
These murders of innocents you mention must be being committed by British troops and any one who supports the troops since they are the ones (amongst many) who are doing the killings must also support the murder of innocents in Afghanistan.
The Conservatives, Lib/Dems even the SNP have declared their support for the troops, I presume you also condemn these parties for supporting the murder of innocents.
17

Whopitt,

edinburgh 12/07/2009 09:24:41
The provision of additional helicopters will allow more soldiers to move around without exposing them to the risk of attack by Improvised Explosive Devices. The need for more helicopters has increased in line with the use of IED's as the weapon of choice by the Taliban.

The scandal of Afghanistan was the failure of the US and UK governments to commit the number of soliders with the necessary equipment to establish control over the whole country in the vacuum that followed the removal of the Taliban in 2001. Since then we have only responded to their challenge.

The lives we and the Afghan civilians lost between then and now, and the additional lives that will be lost as we belatedly try to re-establish control are a tragedy and their blood is on Bush and Blair's hands.
18

Whopitt,

12/07/2009 09:31:46
15 - For Scotland's Future

It is disengenious to compare Afghanistan to NI. And yes we won the "war" - if by "we" you mean the peace loving majority of people in UK and Eire and winning is the permanent cessasation of violence by nearly all the various factions and groups, and the acceptance of the democratic political route to dispute resolution. Sinn Fein and the DUP in a power sharing agreement in Stormont - who would have thought it possible?
19

Jay Kay,

12/07/2009 09:32:30
#6 Shape to shoot, your a f*cking idiot.
#8 Barrett, spot on old boy. But the American Government still wants us all to believe that the taliban will kill us all in our sleep, totally manufactured bull sh*t by the real perputrators of this war Rumsfeld and Chainey with puppet Bush.

If Maggie had any balls which he has NOT, he would save the life of the next unfortunate soul going to be lost in that sh*t hole of a country which has nothing but goats and goat herders.

Its a disaster, Blair, Brown, Bush, Chainey and Rumsfeld should all be on Trial at the Haig.
20

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 12/07/2009 09:41:18
Helicopters would help teduce the death toll, so long as they are moving troops out of this disaster.

If IEDs were a major problem for even properly armoured vehicles (remember in WWII even a Tiger tank was no match for a properly placed and sized mine) then increasing use of helicopters will result in more attempts to down them with small-arms fire and anti-aircraft missiles. The assumption that the taleban will not change tactics accordingly is dangerously naive, as are the pretences at "strategy" in this theatre.
21

Bleeding Heart,

12/07/2009 09:42:01
#21 - "Shape to shoot, your a f*cking idiot".

Nice to see that the art of constructive criticism isn't dead.

Take a look at yourself - you sound more of a fascist than the Rumsfeld's of this world.
22

letmein,

paisley Shape to shoot..... 12/07/2009 09:58:13
Try shooting yourself. You dont know what you are talking about. I was going to explain why, but you are not worthy of an explanation.............
23

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

12/07/2009 10:13:59


If our soldiers were defending us from an evil aggressor they would do so willingly, armed only with pointed sticks if need be.

The point is they are not.

They are taking part in a sales drive for US arms manufacturers, ordered there by Blair and Brown to enhance their personal "world statesman" rankings and to boost their future earnings in the freebie directorship club and on the American lecture tour circuit.

Of course they need more helicopters, better APC's, a couple of new aircraft carriers and the latest nuclear submarines with shiny new matching doomsday missiles (whether they need them or not)...that is the whole point of the exercise.

24

Colkitto,

River Clyde 12/07/2009 10:22:52
How does fighting in Afghanistan stop terrorism here ?
What about the UK born terrorists ? Do you need to go to a terrorist camp in Afghanistan to learn how to blow up an airport or bus ? I don't think so....
25

Phil C,

12/07/2009 10:27:50
#8 Barrett

You have a vivid imagination! The Afghan thing is about revenge for 9/11. I supported the short sharp annihilation of Al Quaeda. That also meant removing the Taleban, fine. Anyway the wee beardy man and his friends hid in a cave, and the Taleban ran away, to return later. It's all very Monty Python, but it is no laughing matter.

8 years on our ill-equipped troops are being killed in increasing numbers. Who's fault is it? Surprise surprise, it's the blundering buffoon that is Brown and his self-serving colleagues.

Cameron is one of the few who can do something about it, if undemocratic Labour would only get out of the way, as the voters have asked him to. But he needs to commit to withdrawal, as we should have done 7 years ago when it became clear that we weren't any good at hide and seek.

26

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

12/07/2009 10:30:21
19 Whopitt

"The scandal of Afghanistan was the failure of the US and UK governments to commit the number of soliders with the necessary equipment to establish control over the whole country in the vacuum that followed the removal of the Taliban in 2001. Since then we have only responded to their challenge."

According to Wiki, in the Soviet Afghani War the Total Number of troops 'In-Country' were:

Soviet 115,000
Afghan 90,000 (approx)

And if they couldn't win with THAT many . . . .
27

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

12/07/2009 10:35:11
Soviet Casualties appear to have been in the region of 15,000!!

We ain't gonna win this, people.
28

Jock's Away,

Africa 12/07/2009 11:04:03

Nothing changes a verse from a Noel Coward Song of 1941
Could you please oblige us with a Bren gun?
Or failing that, a hand grenade will do
We've got some ammunition, in a rather damp condition
And Major Huss has a arquebus that was used at Waterloo

Mr Cameron the Soviets lost 118 aircraft, 333 helicopters, 11300 trucks and 14400 (admitted) killed. it took them 680000 to keep a force of 132000 on the ground. This is not a two small fish and five loave moment. GET REAL.
Politicians create these situation and the poor squaddies pay the price. It is a CIVIL WAR get out. Regarding the Opium that was eliminateded before the allies arrived and like a pheonix rose when they became resident.
29

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

12/07/2009 11:15:56
#28 Colkitto,

"How does fighting in Afghanistan stop terrorism here ?"

Gordon Brown was on the TV news this morning, Waffling about trying to break the chain of terror, that stretches from the mountains of Afghanistan right to our own doorsteps...I think he may be insane.

"What about the UK born terrorists ? Do you need to go to a terrorist camp in Afghanistan to learn how to blow up an airport or bus ?"

I would have thought that it would make more sense to hold night classes at the local primary school...Afghanistan is under constant scrutiny from the all seeing eyes of the spy satellites.

30

Lee John,

12/07/2009 11:54:57
Bring them home. No war in Afghanistan has ever been successful. Learn from history ffs.
31

livilion,

livingston 12/07/2009 11:57:20
Most of the world's illegal opium now comes from this region of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

We had the chance to end this trade when the Allies defeated the Taleban the first time.
The Allies promised to pour resources into the region to rebuild its infrastructure and give the locals a decent alternative in life to drug traffiking, warring and religious extremism.

Instead we spend the money in bombing them 'back to the stone-age' and then wonder why we are losing the battle for hearts and minds?

On top of that, we witness our troops fighting like heroes to clear out insurgents from areas of Helmund, hold it for days whilst surrounded by the enemy - with little or no resupply or medical evacuation helicopters, only to be forced to give up hard won ground because there aren't the resources available to make good on their successes.

This is how you wage war in the media age, by soundbites and photo opportunities, and as it ever was the poor infantry on the ground has to assume the customary position and take it like a man.

How long would these conflicts continue if instead we agreed to send in our Gordon Brown to have a 'square go' with their leader of the Taleban or Al Queda?
32

livilion,

livingston 12/07/2009 12:00:22
#34 The Col. of Monte Cristo
Aye, anyone hiding on a roof in Afghanistan is fair game for the spy satelite.
33

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

12/07/2009 12:30:23
#37 livilion

From what I've seen of Afghanistan on the box...roofs are a distant memory, outside of the posh districts in Kabul.
34

The Answer,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 12:36:53
If the Eglish didnt have to keep sending shed loads of cash to scotsland each year to bail out the failed entity called scotland, English soliders could be provided with resources need to get the job done.

The sooner "the fat one" calls the vote and the scotslanders are brave enough to fall for his propaganda the better it will be for England.
35

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

12/07/2009 12:46:18
#39 The Answer,


I can't say that I agree with your analysis...But all is well, that ends well.
36

Edward,

12/07/2009 13:05:17
Lets face some facts
The UK does NOT have the finance or manpower to conduct a meaningful campaign
I actually beleive the Taliban should be defeated, however the way its being conducted is a farce
We have the Americans providing the most in Manpower and money. We have the UK pretending to be a world power and failing as in reality its NOT!
Then we have the European countries who happily sit in the 'safe' end of Afghanistan and will not commit troop numbers or support (hence the low casualty figures for French and Germans) , Heck even the Germans are not allowed at night in Afghanistan!
Its a shambles
Brown sucks up to the Europeans in order tmo look good
Brown sucks up to the Americans for the same reason
For Brown its about looking important on the world stage and failing!
Basically if we cant provide the support in Helicopters and equipment now, then we should not be there, pretending were something were clearly not!
37

Jim P,

12/07/2009 13:17:27
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu.
38

The Ayrshire Bard,

12/07/2009 13:35:26
#39 I don't know the current percentage of Scots in the armed forces but I remember in the first Gulf War that the figure was 40%.
Your posting displays a total lack of intelligence but a great deal of pig ignorance.
39

mr broon,

Edinburgh 12/07/2009 13:37:24
There could be many reasons for the recent tragic deaths in Helmand although some senior Army Commanders conveniently believe Gordon Brown and the MoD are to blame.

Could the truth be closer to a "furcoat and nae drawers" UK Defence policy?

IF, money and equipment is being rationed then it might have something to do with the UK shortly finding the colossal billions of pounds required to renew Trident?
40

Willie Mor,

12/07/2009 14:31:36
After the UK finally extricates itself from Afghanistan it will do so having sustained military defeat, just like it did in Iraq.

These were two wars cobbled up by rotten politicians. One for oil and another for something else.

Aside of the fact that the UK cannot afford it's ill conceived military adventures, it is an absolute disgrace that this government sends it's soldiers off without the right equipment.

And why has Britain in particular become such an alleged target as opposed to the French or the Germans or the Swedes?

Why indeed Mr Brown!
41

Ewen Miler,

Wilts 12/07/2009 14:37:15
#44
In 2004, Mr Brown cut the budget for new (replacement) helicopters from £4.8B to £3B. He was warned at the time that this would leave the Forces with a 38% short fall in helicopters, which would get worse as existing ones exceeded their fatigue life. We need more helicopters; more infantry; new carriers and around another 6 Frigates/Destroyers - basically undo Brown's defence cuts of 2004. For info the US Marines force in Helmand is 8000 - they have 120 Chinooks; our 9000 troops have 10 Chinooks and 5 Lynx.
42

Bejjy,

Europe 12/07/2009 14:41:21
41 Edward,

The electorate of the UK voted in a government that subsequently committed its military to fight meaningless and, its said by some, illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan; the electorate of various European countries in Europe voted in governments who were and are not prepared to commit their military to the same extent as the British are. Are then the British electorate not as culpable as the British politicians for the deaths of military personnel that they have sent to these battlefields?
43

Ewen Miler,

Wilts 12/07/2009 14:53:15
#41

We have a UN mandate to be in Afghan and are 1 of 41 countries who have committed forces. Trouble is, few in NATO are actually prepared to practice what they preach -so you're left with the UK,US, Australia, Canada, Holland, Denmark and Poland who will do anything.

Other European countries; I think I'm right in saying have to get their parliaments to vote for committing their forces; we only need the Government to decide.
44

The Answer,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 15:00:03
#"43
The Ayrshire Bard,12/07/2009 13:35:26
#39 I don't know the current percentage of Scots in the armed forces but I remember in the first Gulf War that the figure was 40%.

Do the maths , scotsland is only 8% of the UK population, incapacity benefit claiments are running 50% higher in scotsland when compared to England, how on earth are the scotslanders able to raise 500% the average population contribution to the UK (butchers apron) armed forces?
45

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 15:41:34
49 what does that have to do with Afghanistan? Your continual monologues on these threads, and the statistical soup you put in them, could put those unfortunate enough to read them into a coma.

Anyway, if genuine posters haven't read it yet, can I commend Gerald Warners column in the opinion section, it is a very clear explanation of why UK soldiers should be withdrawn from Afghanistan immediately. The only helicopters necessary should be the ones taking them out.
46

mr broon,

Edinburgh 12/07/2009 16:34:51
# 46

The world has only one conventional and nuclear
military superpower: the United States of America.

The United Kingdom comes fifth in a world defence expenditure table of 15 major countries.(United Nations)

It is only surpassed by:
India(nuclear power)
Russian Federation(nuclear power)
China(nuclear power)
and the United States which spends MORE than all these other countries put together, on defence.

The question is: Will the UK be able to fund its future conventional defence budget AND replace Trident?



47

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 17:20:40
No.
48

The new waspy,

12/07/2009 19:42:39
Cant believe a comment I tried to make was blocked before it was posted
49

The Sheriff,

12/07/2009 19:46:23
It's easy for some to say the lack of helicopters has contributed to the increase in the death toll,the fact of the matter is that the terrorists have adapted their tactics to maximise casualties,very rarely are they involved in any hand to hand or close quarter firefights as it would be a fight they would lose so they target weak points in convoys and footpatrols using ied's and suicide bombers.Now if you were to increase the number of movements of troops and equipment using helicopetrs they again would adapt their targets by using surface to air missiles or the m72 law or similar laws (light Anti-Tank Weapons)
50

Ewen Miler,

Wilts 12/07/2009 19:48:11
#51.

If the cost of a Trident replacement means we have to cut our conventional forces; indeed, as is being proved in Afghanistan we're not spending enough, the answer is NO. Also we need to ask: would Trident deter an Al-Quadae dirt bomb - I think not - NO. Finally, is it totally independent - the missiles are US sourced and so would be the replaceemtn - again NO.

In answer to your question: NO - I do not think a Trident replacement is the highest priority, and certainly not at the expense of our Conventional Forces.
51

letmein,

paisley 12/07/2009 19:51:01
The ANSWER is a t#osser ignore him.
The army have three fu##in chinooks in Afghanistan, what more do they need. There are only 9500 troops to ferry around.
52

Ewen Miler,

Wilts 12/07/2009 19:52:47
#54.

So are you saying do nothing? In NI they moved just about all they could be helpicopter; if we hadn't casualties would have been higher. To get hold of significant number of SAMs would be harder - unless another power started supplying them, like the US did with Stringers when the Soviets were in Afghanistan.
53

The new waspy,

12/07/2009 19:58:42
No nation has ever defeated Afghan in their own land. When we sent troops there I thought we may be into a hiding for nothing
Sadly I may be right
Too many young men dying with the wrong equipment to protect them
54

The new waspy,

12/07/2009 20:10:03
And the wrong people dending them there
55

The Sheriff,

12/07/2009 20:30:14
*57,I never said do nothing I just said if we start using more helicopters they will change their tactics.We are facing a very well organized and determined terrorist force,money is not a problem for them and acquiring the weapons to take out helicopters won't be a problem either.Anyway that aside there will always be foot patrols and there is the weak point,you can have all the helicopters in the world to transport men and equipment around at some point they have to get out them.

As for Northern Ireland a rough casualty figure for the conflict between 14th July 1969 and 31st December 2001 was 3523.Going on the current rate of casualties for Iraq and Afgahnistan,they will far exceed 3523 if we continue our conflict for thirty years,helicopters or no helicopters.

56,it's the RAF that have the chinooks.
56

CANUCK,

12/07/2009 21:42:46
We are tring to hit a bunch of flies with fly swatters
our troops will be in Afganistane forever the way they are going,they will never win, they are fighting a people and some traditional way of life.Real measures like eradicating the the poppy fields and naphlam bombing of suspected terriorist areas would bring them to heal very quickly and save our boys lives into the bargin.
57

,

13/07/2009 00:11:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
58

,

13/07/2009 00:12:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
59

Panda123,

Aberdeen 15/07/2009 06:15:10
As an Englishman and ex serviceman I have to say that whilst extremely dissapointed in our PM Gordon Brown who is a Scot and his former English Leader Tony the Liar Blair. It is unfortunate that we are led by such people they and the Labour Party have got us into this mess. When will the people of the UK realise that Labour does not represent those that Labour. I fought in the Falklands and the first Gulf War my job and those of some of my British (Scottish ) colleuges offshore has been taken by workers from Zimbabwe Australia and New Zealand. There are many brave men in our armed forces the Scots are certainly amongst them our armed forces deserve the very best equipment now and a gauranteed job when they leave the service. Jobs offshore Aberdeen under threat from foreign workers the govt says if its outside the 12 mile fishing limit anyone can work here 300,000 jobs at risk whilst many Scots are unemployed Maltese, Indian, Australian, S African, N Zealand workers are stealing the Porridge from your tables. Wake up Scotland.

More Soldiers have died fighting to prevent terrorism than civilians have died on our streets, bring our troops home we cannot win this part time war.

Helicopters dont get hit by roadside bombs, Brown says you cant win hearts and minds in a Helicopter, You cant win hearts and minds when your dead either.

Send Brown and Blair to fight we are not at risk from these people in Afghanistan its a myth Israeli influence over UK and US foreign policy must stop let the Jews fight their own wars.

120 weopons inspectors in iraq 270 million pounds eqivalent spent 3 years of searches we found nothing NO WMD no Chemical weapons. Blair Lied he should face a war crimes tribunal NOW




60

Barry Brock,

18/07/2009 07:00:45
The British have been spending all their money in a foreign country trying to keep up with the Jones' (USA) while their economy collapses.

 

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