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Losing the battle for hearts and minds

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Published Date: 08 November 2009
BY ANY standards it was a tipping point. When five British soldiers were slaughtered during an after-patrol tea-break by an Afghan policeman they had taken into their trust, it was a shocking episode in a war that has already wasted far too many lives.
Corporal Steven Boote, Warrant Officer Darren Grant, Sergeant Matthew Telford, Guardsman James Major and Corporal Nick Webster-Smith were killed in a vicious manner in a vicious war.

As their families grieve, the nature of the tragedy has accelerated calls for withdrawal from Afghanistan and has added to the growing public feeling against the war.

For many UK voters the costly campaign has now become a futile mission dogged by problems making victory impossible.

Yesterday a ComRes opinion poll for the BBC found that almost two-thirds of the public – 64 per cent – now believe that the war is "unwinnable". A similar proportion – 63 per cent – wanted British troops to be withdrawn as soon as possible.

Support may be waning on the home front, but military leaders in the field remain optimistic despite reports that top brass are considering retreating from outlying bases.

"Of course we want the support of the British people, but I think the British people are quite a tough people and what they want to do is win," said Brigadier James Cowan, the commander of British forces in Afghanistan yesterday.

Speaking from the Babaji area of Helmand, Cowan said: "Nobody wants to see their army fail and we have a habit of victory in this army and we know that our people enjoy that habit.

"So I'm sure that the British people will stay with us and I'm sure that we will prevail."

Cowan remained convinced the war is "winnable" and working with the Afghan army and police was the "only way forward".

The trouble is that Cowan's belief in the mission did not appear to be shared by the Prime Minister when he raised the spectre of failure for the first time on Friday.

"We will succeed or fail together," Gordon Brown said before adding "and we will succeed" – almost as an afterthought.

Brown may have said that "we must not walk away". But walking away is precisely what is on the minds of many at the end of a year that has seen 93 deaths – the bloodiest year that Britain has experienced in battle since the Falklands War of 1982.

Producing a credible exit strategy is the challenge exercising politicians and military experts, who realise the grim procession of coffins back to the UK is rousing public opinion against the war effort.

"We need to get a decent strategy," Colonel Bob Stewart, the former commander of British forces in Bosnia, told Scotland on Sunday. "It is no good saying we are going to be there up to 30 years."

In common with most military campaigns, it has proved much easier to go into Afghanistan than to get out, Stewart said.

"What I'm saying is that we've got to have a strategy that convinces the people of this country and – most importantly – the soldiers on the ground that what they are actually doing there is for a point."

Persuading troops that they are engaged in a worthwhile cause cannot be an easy task, given that Stewart has calculated that soldiers have a 16 per cent chance of being killed or wounded on the front line.

"The death rate is a damn sight higher than Northern Ireland," Stewart said. "I was warned when I went to Bosnia that I might well have up to 25 per cent casualties but that never really happened. But 16 per cent – that's pretty high."

In forthright terms, he set out his own Afghanistan objective.

"Put crudely in military terms, it is to cut the balls off the Taleban so they can't hurt us," Stewart said. "But putting it in political terms, it is to ensure the people of Afghanistan have a decent way of life and that Afghanistan is neutralised as regards any threats to our country.

"I think the crude way of putting it sounds better."

According to Stewart, a timetable must be laid out that provides a blueprint for withdrawal.

"That timetable should not be beyond five years. It definitely includes 'Afghanisation' of the security services; training up their people. And it definitely includes a timetable for how we actually achieve our objectives."

Making that timetable known would not be the right tactic, according to the Conservatives, who will inherit responsibility for the war if they win next year's general election.

Andrew Murrison, the shadow defence minister and a former medical officer in the Royal Navy who served in Iraq in 2003, argued that a public timetable would give "succour" to al-Qaeda. Immediate withdrawal was out of the question, because it would be a "shot in the arm to terrorists all over the world. It would allow them to claim some victory and it would seriously damage Nato".

If they win, the Conservatives will set up a war cabinet immediately. The Prime Minister, the Defence Secretary, the heads of MI5 and MI6, the Chief of Defence Staff and the Foreign Secretary will all be involved.

David Cameron plans to devote more troops to both combat and training the Afghan security forces, although it is hoped that the emphasis will shift towards training.

"What is clear is that we have to focus our attention on Afghanistan, despite what has happened," Murrison said. "If we can't build up the police and army, then there is no possibility of removing ourselves from Afghanistan. We have to have the sense of having done the job properly."

The Prime Minister's rhetoric also makes much of building a democracy in Afghanistan and the internal security services. But his plea to Afghan president Hamid Karzai to clean up his regime was described as "naive" by Murrison.

The Prime Minister was accused of sending out mixed messages when he pledged that he would not put servicemen and women "in harm's way" for a regime that does not stand up against corruption.

Some commentators wondered if the Prime Minister's words were another signal that he was prepared to pull troops out – an interpretation that Downing Street denied.

"Gordon Brown is stamping his little foot up and down and saying stop being corrupt or else," Murrison said. "How naive. We have to work with what we've got on the ground. It is obviously wrong to prop up a regime that's failing, but you have to work with what's available.

"The problem with Labour is that they have neglected the development of the country's infrastructure. It is in a right mess. But we have simply got to stick in there."

According to Stewart, the problems facing the government are now partly of its own making; getting out of Afghanistan has become more difficult as the demands on the troops there have increased. "The problem with Afghanistan is that we went there in 2001 to get rid of al-Qaeda. That's what we went in there for originally. General James Jones, the national security adviser of the United States, had declared last month that there were less than 100 al-Qaeda operatives in Afghanistan. When that's viewed against our original mission – then mission accomplished, maybe?"

There had, however, Stewart said, been "mission creep" since 2001. "Some of the mission creeps are to make a democratic, stable government in Afghanistan, to assist women in Afghanistan to go to school and to take part in democracy.

"Now we've been told, of course, that it is to stop immigration into this country," he added, referring to remarks by Phil Woolas, the immigration minister, who told the Commons last week the number of asylum seekers coming to the UK would "significantly increase" if troops came home. "The whole thing is absurd," Stewart added.

The UK Government, weighed down by unpopularity and recession, is under enormous pressure to define a clear Afghanistan strategy.

But the reality is that US President Barack Obama is the lead player in this operation. He is faced with requests for reinforcements from his generals, but appears unconvinced that more troops will stabilise Afghanistan or reduce attacks on the US.

His own way forward was thrown off course last week when a US army psychiatrist and practising Muslim, apparently concerned about the US role in the Afghan conflict, gunned down 13 of his unarmed comrades, wounding two dozen others, at the giant Fort Hood military base.

Does Obama now risk the wrath of the American Right by following his instincts? Despite the need for swift action, as junior partners in this operation, British politicians are waiting for America to take the lead in the knowledge that they cannot upset the Atlantic Alliance.

Murrison said: "The whole thing is being driven at the moment by Obama, and what we do over the next few months has to reflect whatever he decides to do as the main player."

For politicians of the two main political parties, withdrawal is not yet an option. Some of the relatives who lost loved ones last week at the hands of a rogue Afghan policeman, think differently.

They have to deal with the fact that those close to them were killed in circumstances unlike any of the other 230 losses in eight years of conflict.

They were not killed while confronting the Taleban in a firefight or blown up by a roadside bomb – as so many of their colleagues have been. They were murdered when the policeman they had been training turned a heavy machine-gun against them inside a checkpoint in the village of Shin Kalay in the Nad-e' Ali district of Helmand.

They died because they were betrayed by a man they trusted, and were mentoring, as part of the government's strategy to bring law, order and democracy to a lawless country.

Elizabeth Chant, the mother of WO Darren Chant, the soldier described by his regiment as being "carved from the very rock that forms the foundation of the Grenadier Guards", had her own views.

"Darren wouldn't have me say anything bad, but I do think that those boys should come home now because there's too many being killed," she said.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 07 November 2009 11:11 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Afghanistan
 
1

BraveLungs,

08/11/2009 00:51:15
What exactly is 'winning' in this war?
2

Handsome Scotsman,

08/11/2009 01:25:51
Winning would be Gordon Brown landing a helicopter onto an aircraft carrier in the Persian Gulf. Union Jacks everywhere, a wild standing ovation from our forces, with a massive banner above reading "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED".
3

Vista,

08/11/2009 01:28:05
While doing some reading on Wikipedia regarding the First Afghan War 1839-1842, I found the following conclusion:-

"The First Afghan War provided the clear lesson to the British authorities that while it may be relatively straightforward to invade Afghanistan it is wholly impracticable to occupy the country or attempt to impose a government not welcomed by the inhabitants. The only result will be failure and great expense in treasure and lives."

The British public appear to have realised this but how long will it take our Political Masters to do the same?
4

Jock MacSprog,

08/11/2009 01:38:39
Number 3 you are about the billionth person to try to drag out this hackney old tired comparison. And with your faux sage wisdom act as if this research you have studioiusly done is some beacon of reason. Well, did your wiki reading reveal that the afghans in 1839 were running training camps in their country to plan and direct attacks on british civilians in London, New York, Washington, Madrid, etc etc. dont think so, oops there goes your analogy.
5

JWW,

Whitburn,West Lothian, 55.86667 -3.68500 08/11/2009 01:50:16
Who really gains out of perpetual wars?
6

Vista,

08/11/2009 01:52:31
4.Jock MacSprog,

My, my you do take on so!

Well to oversimplify things for you, the reasons for any conflict are irrelevant. What matters are the chances of winning or losing. Winning is preferable but never guaranteed!

The Afghanis have ultimately defeated every military force that occupied their country by rendering potential victory too expensive in lives, materiel and treasure. So when do you think Britain is going to win in Afghanistan?
7

Vista,

08/11/2009 01:53:55
5.JWW,


Arms manufacturers of course!
8

Stephen Wayne Foster,

Miami, Florida 08/11/2009 02:08:52
Who wins out in perpetual wars? This question was answered sixty years ago in Orwell's 1984. Look it up.
9

Letters From Muscat,

edinburgh 08/11/2009 03:47:11
No one wants to 'lose face' ? So the slaughter goes on. Crazy. Yes, easier to start a war, not sosimple to end it. God, I am fed up hearing so- called 'military solutions' while more young men are blown to smithereens. I hope they have reached a tipping point. I hope they will get round the table and jaw- jaw as Winston used to say. Surely the public won't stand for 30 years of this massacre. Improvised explosive devices dont seem to deserve the tag 'improvised' they seem pretty successful to me. And yes, the only 'winners' are the arms manufacturers, who ever they are. As it is Remembrance Sunday, please pray for an end to this meaningless conflict.
10

Wolf1957,

Afghanistan 08/11/2009 04:10:18
The media have spun this entire war in the direction they want it to go. Even this story isn't a straightforward reporting of facts, it's a play to a particular viewpoint. And it plays right into the enemy's hands. Everyone is oversimplifying the facts on the ground.

#6 Vista

This isn't a war against the Afghans. They are as much victims as anyone else. The ANA and ANP are suffering five times as many casualties as ISAF in any given month. On top of that, add about 200 civilians a month.

It isn't unheard of for a Taliban infiltrator in the police to kill Afghan police officers either. So it isn't that we've lost the hearts and minds battle, but the bad guys are very resourceful. What is costing us is the lack of resolve back home.

The Taliban figure they only have to survive and we will lose heart. The soldiers aren't losing heart, but the Taliban certainly have the spineless Western media and public pegged right. This story as written is a perfect example of how they are winning the information war.
11

,

08/11/2009 04:51:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

Observer,,

Glasgow 08/11/2009 04:55:57
10 There is nothing spineless about recognising that Britain has no business in Afghanistan. The military types can gung ho as much as they like the British Army will get kicked out. That is inevitable, all history tells us that. The question is how long will it take before the govt admit defeat.
13

drunken proffet,

Tassy 08/11/2009 05:53:56
It would maybe be strange to ask the Muslim population of the UK whether or not Britain should withdraw from Afgahnistan. It would mean accepting the rule of the Taliban in Afgahnistan and its extreme translation of Sharia law, also accepted in Somalia. If they feel that is the way to go, why do they stay in the UK. If not then they should voice their disapproval of the actions of those organisations and give a positive help in this matter. Even Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia are taking action against those miscreants. It is not a new situation, around the 17th century in the UK, the Protestants and Catholics were not practising brotherly love.
14

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 08/11/2009 05:54:41
I think I'd feel more comfortable walking the streets of Kabul, Insha'Allah, than any british town. It's not just me that gets verbal abuse from surly UK louts, but this afternoon 2 young ladies got it too. "Would you like me to cross the street and scone them", I asked. But that wasn't immediately required.

Ill natured, ill mannered, unemployable. If this is brit culture -- REMOVE YOURSELVES PLEASE.
15

Ewan Randall,

08/11/2009 06:05:37
(#14) - (Yok Finney) -Were you in Scotland when this incident happened?

If this was the case then was it not Scottish culture you were witnessing too?
16

Sonare,

08/11/2009 06:36:08
Speaking from the Babaji area of Helmand, Cowan said:

"Nobody wants to see their army fail and we have a habit of victory in this army and we know that our people enjoy that habit."

...Having just watched 'yesterday' where the past is always present' - with Eamonn Holmes and Kate Singleton, my response to the quote above is simply -
"Oh really"!
17

John Cameron,

St Andrews 08/11/2009 06:40:42
With the collapse of US political strategy in Afghanistan, we are left with no military goal beyond avoiding defeat. It is also clear that it is the western military presence that is driving support for the Taliban in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. There is therefore no alternative to a carefully phased exit combined with a new military and diplomatic strategy. We should open negotiations with the Taliban, and offer a timetable for a phased withdrawal in return for a ceasefire. There should also be a new approach to Pakistan asking for their help in persuading the Taliban to come to the negotiating table. There is a clear need to decentralize the Afghan state. In the parliamentary elections due next year political parties should be allowed to stand - at present this is banned. The Taliban should be encouraged to form a political party, which could take local power in many Pashtun areas through the political process and share in some form of central government in Kabul. The West?s only condition should be that the Taliban pledge not to permit sanctuaries for terrorism in areas it may dominate. This may not be a perfect solution, but leaving American and allied soldiers to sacrifice their lives to no purpose in the quagmire of Afghanistan is no alternative.
18

Observer,,

Glasgow 08/11/2009 06:53:18
13 What are you havering on about man? Muslims are dying every single day in the fight against extremism. We are *helping* the extremists to gain ground by ridiculous imperialist military action. Moderate muslims are moderate Westerners best friends. I really wish people would realise that and stop letting the extremists hatred, from both sides, dominate.
19

Mcsnagpile,

08/11/2009 08:12:13
Winning the hearts and minds of whom??

Moslem's believe that Jesus was a Prophet
But did not die for our sins or die on the cross.
Did not perform miracles—certainly not turn water into demon wine.
Did not have a last supper ---certainly not with bread and demon wine.
Christian services are illegal as they include demon wine.
So what do you think of the truth so far?????
20

Ben Thehoose,

08/11/2009 08:26:32
#19 Macsnag.

I agree with these Muslims: I also distinguish between Jesus and Christianity (and there are 15 reasons to doubt Jesus died at Calvary).

Demon wine, though, is a bit much. Why blame the drink rather than the drunkard?

As to hearts and minds? That battle was lost before an IED was set off.
21

Donkey Hote,

08/11/2009 09:34:39

If the enemy had surface to air missiles like the Mujahadeen did in their war with the Russians, then this war would soon be over too. NATO forces would not be able to move by air and would be increasingly vulnerable as they moved overground as the terrain is not suitable for heavy armour.
22

Unimpressed one,

08/11/2009 09:42:53
#3, Vista

Some would say we never learn from history and that is never more so the case than over the last 50 years beginning with the disaster that was Vietnam. Our political masters have much to answer for.
23

Upbeat,

08/11/2009 10:07:36
The Public on both sides of this conflict have never been told enough about the mission in Afganistan to understand that this is not a country where the occupation of ground will ever signify victory. The only way this war will end is when the forces opposed to normal democratic standards of living become so depleted that they can no longer interfere with day to day life.

This message needs to be heard loudly in the recruiting grounds where the Insurgent forces currently have support...in the ungovernable regions remote valleys and communities along the Pakistan border.

The Nato intention was never to "occupy" Afganistan. This can never be achieved by any outside military force. The mission was to bring about an end to the domination and oppression of a whole country, by a fundamentalist minority. Today this message will be news to many young Muslim fighters, who have been subverted and led to believe other things by war lords and those with religeous influence over them. The path that can lead to the end of this conflict is that obvious.
24

blackley,

Edinburgh 08/11/2009 11:10:58
Can we please stop trying to be the world's policeman? Can we also stop hanging onto America's coat tails?
Let's try a different tack. Let's start being nice to folk in the middle-east. Maybe then they won't hate us so much.
25

lulach mac gille coemgain,

08/11/2009 11:13:10
#23

‘when the forces opposed to normal democratic standards of living become so depleted that they can no longer interfere with day to day life’

Sounds like yer talking about Labour and Gordon Brown - we haven’t even voted that sad creature into power ?
26

Hong Kong Fooey,

08/11/2009 11:36:49
Speaking as a former serviceman I can say the waffle coming out of Gordon Brown about why our troops are where they are is exactly that...waffle.It should be noted that when a man or woman signs on the dotted line and accepts the "queens shilling" they become the exclusive property of UK Plc and the puppet master politicians until they either die or leave of their own accord.

Adolf Hitler and many before him have tried to capture our Island nation and have failed so what makes Brown think that Al-qaeda,the taliban or any other extreme terrorist organisations will succeed in doing so?

The troops should be withdrawn and with it a line drawn in the sand,it will not be disrespectful to those who have fallen as has been suggested in some quarters to do so.
27

,

08/11/2009 12:08:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
28

dalriadan,

glasgow 08/11/2009 12:46:45
With rememberance day in mind, you'd wonder how much we've evolved since the first world war. At that time people were falling over each other to have a pop at the Germans. In Britain we had a savage generation itching for a fight. Now we're told to be proud of them.
You'd wonder if the poppy wearing fraternity really know about the futility of that war. Instigated through wicked jingoism, greed, and fear. Just a bit like Afghanistan today.
The political and elite ghouls will stand today in pompous fashion. Then they'll send young guys to die, all for the benefit of multinational oil merchants. The ones who will benefit in the long run.
We haven't learned anything in 70 years.
29

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 08/11/2009 12:49:26
#27 Ratatosk

Agreed - Brown's premise that we are in Afghanistan to protect Britain from terrorism is completely false. Otherwise why would he permit almost uncontrolled immigration and lack of will to expel illegal immigrants? We need to tighten up border control substantially and not be so squeamish about sending thugs, terror plotters and illegals back to whence they came and not hanging about fo a few years either. next flight - like NZ and Australia.

Then we need a new strategy - one that resembles a plan - not like the current face-saving nonsense. Military leaders will always want to fight on - that's their job after all, but our politicians need to be on a proper war-footing basis otherwise things go uncontrolled and unwinnable, like the present situation. If troops are withdrawn from Afghanistan there will be murder and mayhem for a while but this will re-stabilise as the various fighting factions carve up power. This does not mean to say we have to be there sorting it out! Otherwise we'd be right in to Zimbabwe and Sudan, etc. A plan has to be drawn up to deal with the Pakistan nukes and any attempt to acquire these by Islamic insurgents but the present arrangement is not making that any safer.
30

Wiley Canuck,

Toronto 08/11/2009 13:04:32
Nos. 5 and 7 - spot on. If anyone hasn't seen the documentary "Fog of War" you should. Such callous disregard for life. Power is the end all and be all. Too many young, innocent lives dead - for what? Greed and power - nothing else.
31

Hardrations,

Canada 08/11/2009 14:22:14
Quote# 30.
Nos. 5 and 7 - spot on. If anyone hasn't seen the documentary "Fog of War" you should. Such callous disregard for life. Power is the end all and be all. Too many young, innocent lives dead - for what? Greed and power - nothing else//

Well said, but don't forget that political leaders & Generals get a woodie in commiting young people to these wars.
32

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 08/11/2009 14:48:27
I have more questions than answers on this one. Firstly, why is it up to Sir Jock Stirrup to explain the reasons behind this campaign to the public (Andrew Marr show this morning)?
He sat there being interviewed fairly tamely by Mr Marr, and could not cope with the fact that the interview exposed the inconsistencies in the message on the war. What was worse was the lame cost-benefit analysis of the war and the reference to the 'national interest', something that covers a multitude of sins.
Secondly, if this war is justified then should it not be easy to explain? If it isn't then it means that the public would not agree if the real reasons for the campaign are admitted. A fight for survival I can condone, an adventure for dubious reasons, I cannot stomach.
Third question: Is it the case that we are being kept deliberately ignorant of Afghanistan, since they made the mistake of giving the public too much information about Iraq?
33

puskas,

East kilbride 08/11/2009 15:51:42
I disagreed with George Galloways ref.. Lions led by Donkeys..

Insulting to Donkeys.
34

westview,

Ask your local council about defence. 08/11/2009 16:04:05
Support Civil Defence plans, now! Prepair more fallout shelters ,and iodine tablets for every home. Well the Swiss way for every new building to have a fall out shelter included in its planing consent gives the Swiss a shield against nuclear blackmail. We seem to have relied on the "Sword" of our military with out thinking of the "Shield" of civil defence. On another tack when the Pirates start cutting off our food supplis do we need Trident to defend our island or would more cheaper subs and surface ships in our navy be better?
35

New Danielrober,

08/11/2009 16:25:00
At the start of the last decade, 1999-2001 I spent a lot of time talking to Southern Africans or to be more exact they spent a lot of time talking to me – that was ok, I had time. It was the 100th anniversary of the end of the second/third boar war. When you go on Wikipedia (which I’m sure that they are not aware of) the first boar war is 1880-81, with the second boar war been 1899 – 1902. The second date and first name is wrong and this is an excellent piece of ‘date blending’.

Date blending is a new re-write history method were loosing wars are made to last either longer or shorter depending on which side of the coin you are on. The second boar war was generally considered to be 1899-1900, the third boar war was about 1901 – 1902. In the gap the Brits thought the war had ended they were right and wrong. The second war had much to do with German Imperial expansion plans in Southern Africa; the third war was the boars themselves arming for what they wanted. Two different wars fought at the same location by similar people, yet for two different sets of outcomes. The second war put an end to further Imperial German expansion. The semi-independence of the boars, to be recognised as their ‘own people’ was established by the third war. Both affairs were nasty and preludes to the Great War.

‘Date blending’ is happening now in Afghanistan. The first war was fought and won to get international terrorists out of Afghanistan. There was then a break to fight and again win in Iraq and now we have a third, separate war. The power vacuum in Afghanistan will/is been filled.

This is an ancient land in ‘Central Asia’ of cities and communities, and this place will again prosper as it has for thousands of years. This new war is about the future not the past. Blending dates by international protestors or those with a beef with the USA will not help the people of Afghanistan or themselves. This is about development, growth, stability and ensuring that another fa
36

New Danielrober,

08/11/2009 16:25:31
35 cont

This is an ancient land in ‘Central Asia’ of cities and communities, and this place will again prosper as it has for thousands of years. This new war is about the future not the past. Blending dates by international protestors or those with a beef with the USA will not help the people of Afghanistan or themselves. This is about development, growth, stability and ensuring that another failed state is helped back up. That help is military, civilian and about buying time for the Afghan’s.

This second recent war in Afghanistan, post-Iraq is coming to an end now and the troops will come home. Saying that the terrorists did not loose the last war is not a bit of date blending, but instead its similar to saying that Hitler did not loose WWII – he did – its a fact.

This day more than any other in the year remind us that wars end.
37

Vista,

08/11/2009 16:43:55
35.New Danielrober.

Minor point,

Boars or boar are pigs.

Boers or Boer are South Africans of Dutch descent.

Misuse could cause obvious offence!
38

New Danielrober,

08/11/2009 17:01:42
# 37 Vista,

Apologies – long weekend.
39

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 08/11/2009 17:32:37
#17 John Cameron. I agree with you in all the points you raise.

Afghanistan can only function in a de-centralised form. Each region and ethnic grouping worked adequately under their warlords and under the King. Some countries are best organised with a figurehead monarch who transcends ethnic divides. The West's attempt to support a presidential system has produced the corrupt and ineffective Karzai, whose sway does not extend beyond Kabul.

The multinational forces of the West is fighting a "War by Committee". With Bush, we at least had a policy, however misguided and heavy-handed. Obama, I am afraid, has too little experience to make up his mind what should be done.

There is now a vacuum of strategy. In these circumstances we need to look afresh at what the West is doing in Afghanistan. The Taliban will not go away and we cannot wipe them out. Therefore we must come to an understanding with them. They must be free to have their reprehensible policies within their own sphere, without our interference.

All we need from them is that they stamp down on anything that takes terrorism to the West and that means they give no succour to Al Quaida. Also we purchase what heroin is produced in areas under their control so that we can destroy it before it can be sold on our streets. Beyond that we leave them be.

History tells us that ALL wars in Afghanistan lead to the defeat of the invader. The sooner we accept that we can never succeed in our ambitions there, the sooner we can get out of the quagmire there that is costing us far too much in lives and money.
40

Scottyt,

Saint Paul, 08/11/2009 17:37:07
No-one declared war on the Taliban; we just invaded so this an invasion NOT a war and so many lives wasted. The heads of the military need to know that the British people do and always will support the armed forces; it is this "invasion" they do not support. For this we blame the Heads of State.

Didn't we get beaten out of the country a long, long time ago; as did the Russians not that long ago?
May all these young lives though, not be in vain and may all the dead from all wars RIP with our condolences to their families.
41

Thistledhu,

08/11/2009 17:38:41
to simply walk away is not an option Bob stewart is stateing the obviouse with afghanisation that is happening now.

Pakistan tried the ignore them and maybe they will leave us alone tact! the talibans response was to take control of more land and increase attacks. the taliban are actively seeking to destabealise and overthrow the pakistan goverment.

Lets not forget over 40 countrys send forces to Afghanistan are all there goverments wrong?
42

New Danielrober,

08/11/2009 18:12:49
I agree that a new strategy or even attitude, as to what success is, needs to be considered over Afghanistan.

As for the Invasion ‘idea’, well it depends on what sex you are. If your a man, living in wealth with servants and a stick to back up your opinion or gun – then yes it was an invasion. However if your a women, been hit with a stick for having an opinion and wishing to teach their daughters to read, as their grandmothers did, then it was not an invasion – it was a liberation.

As any Police officer will tell you, been involved in a domestic is trouble, as such I think your right we need a new strategy or attitude towards Afghanistan.
43

Vista,

08/11/2009 18:15:31
41.Thistledhu

"Lets not forget over 40 countrys send forces to Afghanistan are all there goverments wrong?"

Well perhaps those countries were sucked along by the vacuum of American exuberance, 'all fools together as it were'. Just because America leads the charge, it is not necessarily going to be militarily correct. American politicians have made mistakes before, Vietnam springs to mind, and the American military paid the price of that mistake, without changing the ultimate outcome!
44

Thistledhu,

08/11/2009 18:45:24
43 your confuseing issues here are you comfortable with the idea of a taliban ruled Afghanistan and pakistan and the effect that would have on the lives of us all?
45

Vista,

08/11/2009 19:06:19
44.Thistledhu.

I'm confusing nothing. Why bring Pakistan into it? Pakistan is an independent country and well capable of taking care of itself.

I am also quite sure that ordinary Afghans are more than capable of sorting out the Taliban as well, if they were left to it. Their history tells us they are!

Soooo, you to put a number to it. How many dead British soldiers do YOU consider Afghanistan is worth?
46

Thistledhu,

08/11/2009 19:21:14
45 you can not separate Pakistan from the afghan conflict it is the same fight the afghans at the moment are not capable of sorting the taliban themselves.

yes in full on war they can defeat them as the Northern alliance did when they deposed the taliban but the destabiliseing tactics that we now see in pakistant are the same tactic the afghans can not deal with at the moment this is the issue though such capability i am told is only a few years off.

As to your question re how many British soldiers is afghan worth i find the distatefull and offensive you should appologise!!
47

Vista,

08/11/2009 19:35:17
46.Thistledhu

"As to your question re how many British soldiers is afghan worth i find the distatefull and offensive you should appologise!!"

Don't give me your mock outrage. I find it more distasteful and offensive that people like you are quite happy to send kids halfway round the world to die in your name but are afraid to stand behind your belief system and say what an acceptable number of casualties would be!

I bet when you buy anything, you just hand over a signed blank cheque and let Slippery Sam the Salesman fill in the details because counting the cost offends you. Aye right!
48

Thistledhu,

08/11/2009 19:48:46
re 47 i stand by my beliefs by my actions the soldiers you refer to are not kids there men brave ones at that

I base my opinions on knowledge gained from 22 years service in the army I have lost close friends in this conflict.

so lets hear it are you happy at the prospect of a taliban controlled Afghanistan and pakistan and the consequences that would bring?
49

Vista,

08/11/2009 20:02:13
48.Thistledhu

'I base my opinions on knowledge gained from 22 years service in the army I have lost close friends in this conflict'

If that is so then you already know that Afghanistan is a lost cause. It is an unwinnable war.

I suspect you have a very good idea what the casualty toll will be. Vietnam exceeded 58000!
50

Not available,

Edinburgh 08/11/2009 20:05:53
bring the troops home now. Don't beleive Brown and his terrorist threats if they pull out. This is just spin to try and control us. Any time he is in trouble he uses the alleged terrorist threat.
51

Thistledhu,

08/11/2009 20:12:30
# 49 Vista not so far from it now answer the question.
52

Vista,

08/11/2009 20:27:31
51.Thistledhu

I don't care about Afghanistan. Whoever ends up in charge of Afghanistan isn't going to make much difference to the price of eggs in Europe or the U.K.

Now, I don't have the gift of foreseeing the future and I doubt if you do, so neither you nor I can say with certainty what the consequences would be so any predictions on that would be pure speculation!
53

Thistledhu,

08/11/2009 21:18:30
predictions on the consquence of a nuclear capable Al.queda/Taliban are you for real
54

Vista,

08/11/2009 21:36:11
53. Thistledhu

"predictions on the consquence of a nuclear capable Al.queda/Taliban are you for real"

Yes. I can see you have got it really bad!!You will have Dr.No in there as well, quite soon
55

tommy M,

scotland 08/11/2009 21:40:21
Warmongering Bush, Blair and Brown and the illegal war on "terror" and nuclear weapons that, er oh yeah, didn't actually exist...Brown continues to ignore the public opinion, slaughter the innocents and send ill equipped troops to their hideous deaths at his peril.

VOTE LABOUR OUT. Shame on them.
56

Thistledhu,

08/11/2009 23:01:34
54 the reality dosent fit in with your drivel pakistan shares a border with Afghanstan afghan falls pakistan would quickly follow
Pakistan has Nuclear wpns got the picture
57

Thistledhu,

08/11/2009 23:03:08
55 the commitment to Afghan has been ratified by numerouse UN charters far from illegal
58

Vista,

08/11/2009 23:06:35
"The people usually get the governments that they didn't actually vote for."

Groucho Marx.


"You will never find a drunk who voted for a bad Government."

W.C. Fields.

59

Vista,

08/11/2009 23:12:36
56. Thistledhu

"54 the reality dosent fit in with your drivel pakistan shares a border with Afghanstan afghan falls pakistan would quickly follow
Pakistan has Nuclear wpns got the picture"

All of which requires a great deal more imagination and speculation than Walt Disney Studios ever engaged in!
60

Vista,

08/11/2009 23:26:31
56.Thistledhu,

Are you actually comparing the Pakistani Army with what passes for the Afghan Army?

Are you claiming that the Taliban could actually defeat the Pakistani Army or are you saying that the Pakistani Army just leaves it's nuclear arsenal lying around for the Taliban to quietly filch on some dark night?
61

Thistledhu,

08/11/2009 23:30:48
you really are sticking your head in the sand here
not much imagination reqd so lets put it simply

ISAF forces withdraw result taliban take power

then pakistan

this can not be allowed to happen
62

Vista,

08/11/2009 23:38:08
61.Thistledhu

You could make a good living writing fiction - but only if you promise to improve your spelling!
63

Hardrations,

09/11/2009 00:18:23
Frank Spencer and Betty where are you? Surely you have some sort of conspiracy theory to blame this all on the government. My goodness, I just don't understand why you rattle butts aren't involved in this one.

 

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