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Fighting killer weed that does just what it says on the packet



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Published Date: 27 May 2008
The SNP Government's ban on the display of cigarettes in shops spearheads a new drive to cut the number of youngsters taking up smoking. But Ian Swanson finds not everyone is behind the move.
IT has been compared to bygone days when some shopkeepers would keep pornography under the counter. The Scottish Government's announcement of a ban on the open display of cigarettes in shops was a bold move in the war against tobacco.

Cigarette ad
vertising was banned in 2002. Tobacco sponsorship came to an end in 2005. The previous Scottish Executive brought in the ban on smoking in enclosed public spaces in March 2006 – and last year the minimum age for buying cigarettes was raised from 16 to 18.

Now SNP Public Health Minister Shona Robison is leading a new drive to reduce the number of young smokers.

As well as requiring shopkeepers to keep cigarettes under the counter, the Government plans a crackdown on smuggled and counterfeit cigarettes and is considering a registration scheme for shopkeepers selling tobacco, new laws against vending machines and a ban on selling cigarettes in packets of ten.

Critics have branded the ban on point-of-sale displays as simply the latest example of the nanny state, and shopkeepers claim it will cost them thousands. Supporters insist it could help cut the number of young people taking up smoking.

Statistics show the number of youngsters starting to smoke has fallen over the past decade. But 80 per cent of smokers start in their teens – and someone who starts at 15 is three times more likely to die from cancer as a result than someone who starts in their mid-20s. So Ms Robison has set new targets – cutting the level of smoking among 13-year-old girls to three per cent and among boys of the same age to two per cent by 2014.

She says: "The challenge is to make cigarettes and other tobacco products less affordable, less accessible and less attractive to children and young people."

Labour's UK Health Secretary Alan Johnson has already backed the display ban and announced he will be consulting on a similar measure soon.

But the proposals have raised widespread concerns. The Scottish Grocers Federation, which represents many corner shops, says displays are essential to allow adults to make an informed choice about which cigarettes they want to buy.

Based on Canadian experience, SGF chief executive John Drummond says convenience stores could face bills of up to £2000 for modifying their shops to comply with the new ban. He adds that the effectiveness of display bans in other countries is "not proven".

He said: "In Iceland, where displays were banned in 2001, youth smoking remains at the same levels. In parts of Canada, youth smoking even increased following display bans, resulting in the ban being overturned after 18 months."

Smokers' rights group Forest says the display ban is "yet another attack on freedom of choice". It claims there is little evidence to suggest that point-of-sale bans do anything to reduce youth smoking rates. Neil Rafferty, Forest's Scottish spokesman, warns: "These measures will simply make smoking seem even more attractive to teenagers."

Similarly, Independent Lothians MSP Margo MacDonald is not impressed. "It's nonsense," she says. "Very few people go into a shop and look at cigarettes the way you look at sweets. They go in for the express purpose of buying cigarettes, so I don't think it will make any difference."

But Ms Robison believes the display ban will have an impact.

She says: "Young people who are exposed to tobacco advertising and promotion are more likely to take up smoking."

Ms Robison also dismisses concerns about the effect of the ban on shopkeepers. She says: "International experience has shown that implementation of tobacco display bans has not had a dramatic impact on local businesses."

Smoking is still one of the main causes of illness and premature death in Scotland. It is estimated to be responsible for around 13,000 deaths and 33,500 hospital admissions each year, and cost the NHS more than £200 million a year in hospital treatment for smoking-related illnesses.

The anti-smoking group, ASH Scotland, is firmly behind the Government's move, describing the ability of shops to have cigarettes on display as "one of the last loopholes in the tobacco advertising ban".

Chief executive Sheila Duffy says: "At the moment, if you walk into a corner shop or supermarket you are bombarded with promotions and brands. Young people will experiment with those they see most heavily advertised. Cigarettes would never get on to the market as a product you could buy openly if we knew at the beginning what we know now."





The full article contains 795 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 27 May 2008 9:34 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Tobacco
 
1

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 11:36:01
Puritanical nonsense from an increasingly puritanical government.
2

,

27/05/2008 12:14:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
3

Capital Boy,

27/05/2008 12:25:05
oh yes don't smoke in public places or the smoking cops will get ya, nevermind tho you can still breathe in the noxious fumes from all sorts of vehicles and even worse you can legally buy alcohol which is worse than fags !!
4

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 27/05/2008 12:40:16
#2, p.h.
So also, apparently, is Screaming Lord Petrol Man of the Raving Monster Nazi Seeking Looney Party.
5

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 27/05/2008 12:41:52
#4.
At least he was, until he was zapped. Wonder why?
6

Dacinda27,

27/05/2008 12:47:31
Ah yes - the man who slaughtered millions of people based on a psychotic mission to purify the human race has come back from the dead to torture smokers in Scotland.
Smokers need to grow up and accept that the world is no longer going to stand by and let them contaminate the lungs of those around them.
Smoke all you want. Just don't do it around me. And don't expect me to pay your medical bills.
7

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

, Newington 27/05/2008 13:08:01
It seems some of our local shops are already ahead of this legislation and are keeeping the ciggies under the floorboards.
8

David from New Mills,

Pleasntville, U.K. 27/05/2008 13:08:10
#6,Dacinda27.
Well put, Dacinda, even tho' there's little need to make p.h. appear foolish, as he seems to manage quite well all by himself.
9

,

27/05/2008 13:39:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

27/05/2008 13:40:55
7. Fair point. Very fair point.

11

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 13:50:22
I see that the truth hurts.

#6:

You are a complete contradiction you know. Your very words are "smoke all you want" yet when I criticise those who seek to remove that right from me, you take issue with it. Strange.

As for the comparison with the nazis, I have explained many times that this is not a comparison to the death camps. It is a comparison to the early days of nazism. If you read your history books, you would see that there are a awful lot of parallels between what is happening now with this needless oppression and what happened in Germany in the 1930s.

Take a look at yourself. They have even affected the way you think. Such is the power of propaganda.
12

AbandonAllHope,

27/05/2008 14:07:39
Smokings cool !
13

an interested party,

27/05/2008 14:22:21
going to crack down on illegal imports
how so ?

just like the oh so effective point of sale ban on advertising for heroin, which also requires a crack
down on illegal imports

double fail
14

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

27/05/2008 14:42:56
Theres something far wrong when its illegal to import Fags from the rest of the EU , but legal to import just about anything else apart from Booze.
15

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

27/05/2008 14:43:09
Anyway , I'm on the wrong story.
16

subrosa,

27/05/2008 14:43:12
We should go far further than this. Only have tobacco licenced outlets as in Spain.

I speak as a life long smoker now suffering from COPD and chronic bronchitis who's health is permanently damaged by cigarettes. You think in your 40s 'I'm fine I've not problems'. You think the same in your 50s although you realise you cough more and run out of breath quicker. In your 60s it hits you like a bolt out of the blue that you can't breath. That's what happens. And I still can't finish my association with this killer :(
17

Smasher,

27/05/2008 16:27:48
No6

When will people like you just stop for a minute and leave smokers to get on with their habit. I don't smoke but I don't look upon smokers as vermin as you seem to do. It's their choice, their health and it may annoy you, their health service. If you don't like breathing other peoles smoke then just stop breathing. Bores like you would be no lose.

Hiding fags from view seems like a good idea. The fact that coccaine/cannibis use is rocketing and is not on display anywhere backs up that way of thinking. And people receive large salaries for thinking up this tripe.

Anyone got a light? I'm 62 and think I'll start smoking just to annoy non smokers. And finally. People who don't smoke, don't drink alcohol, don't exercise and don't sleep around do not actually live any longer than those who do...............it just feels longers.
18

,

27/05/2008 17:02:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
19

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 17:19:03
#17:

"The fact that coccaine/cannibis use is rocketing..."

And somehow it seems OK to smoke cannibis yet if you light up an ordinary cigarette you are vilified. I certainly don't see the likes of some posters here banging on with their daft anti-smoking ideas whenever there is a story about pot smoking.

Neither do you see the anti-smoking brigade being up in arms about open log fires, bonfires, diesel fumes etc, any one of which will cause them to breath in far, far more potentially harmful chemicals than their illusion of passive smoking would ever do.

They are hypocrits to a man (or woman) and are proof positive that this hatred has been the sole product of propaganda. Why? Because they are inconsistent and make no sense in their arguments.
20

DeniseX,

27/05/2008 17:59:43
The minimum age for buying cigarettes is now eighteen. How many under eighteens are going into shops and buying cigarettes because they see them on display?
21

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 27/05/2008 19:51:01
#20, Deni seX.
Hopefully the same no. who're buying Stanley knives, solvents, alcohol,fireworks, air guns or any other age restricted products. If irresponsible retailers are ignoring the law, it does them little credit, and they deserve to be dealt with in accordance with the law.
22

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K 27/05/2008 20:02:03
#19, Petrol Man.
Smoking cannabis in an enclosed public place is just as much against the law as smoking tobacco.
Avoiding open log fires and bonfires is relatively easy. Avoiding diesel fumes in am urban environment is admittedly trickier. Would p.h. advocate a return to horse drawn transport and an army of equine manure shovellers?
Why are pro-restrictionists such "hypocrits", and how has this alleged hatred "been the sole product of propaganda"?
P.h. is certainly consistent in "making no sense in his arguments."
23

,

27/05/2008 20:18:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

yoric,

27/05/2008 21:26:43
Wait untill the Scottish Government bans smoking conpletely.
It will then clear all land on the border for 1 mile and ban anyone from entering this border zone in case they should get a wiff of smoke floating over from England.
25

Chuckles,

in Pleasantville- flouting the ban 28/05/2008 00:29:10
DFNM22 No but the railways could be more electrified on principal routes like they are everywhere in Europe. Now thats less diesel fuel! Sole product of propaganda? Because it only shows hypocracy and stupidity when people say "a whiff of smoke can cause cancer or a heart attack". Fact of the matter is smoking is proven to be nothing more than a mere irritant.
26

Chuckles,

in Pleasantville- flouting the ban 28/05/2008 00:31:01
BTW in my previous post number 25 I meant to say passive smoking so just to make it clear- otherwise one cant tell whether it's active or not. A type error on the last sentence of the previous post basically.
27

Mr A Roy,

28/05/2008 02:31:40
Did you know that a 100% of non smokers die ?
28

DaveA,

Forfarshire 28/05/2008 09:30:20
As a smoker I have no objections to people giving up or smoking less. However the result of banning packets of 10 is that people smoke more. Here is a quote from from Ireland and the URL for your review.

"Ms Healy said: "While we do not publish individual information, we do measure the amount of cigarettes smoked per day, and before the ban, 16.3 were smoked by the average smoker. After the ban, that figure rose to 17.4 cigarettes a day."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/smoking-rate-has-risen-since-ban-on-the-10pack-1286383.html
29

Rob Simpson,

UK 28/05/2008 10:32:55
Your average diesel 4x4 emits the equivalent of 4 cigarettes worth of carcinogens every SECOND the engine is running - yet you can drive one of these cars in an enclosed public space (multi-story car parks), but can't smoke there because "it's too dangerous".
Now, you can display pornography and firearms openly, but can't display cigarettes. This has nothing to do with preventing kids from smoking, that's just the excuse, this is more of the government's attempt to denormalise smoking.
I know most of the anti-smoking idiots think this is a good thing - it'll save lives yadda-yadda - and fail to realise the dangers inherent in allowing a supposedly liberal and democratic government to decide what is normal and what needs to be denormalised.
If they get away with vilifying the smoker (approx 15 million people) what's to stop them doing with any other group, such as drinkers, the obese or motorists?
30

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 28/05/2008 11:00:47
#25/26, Carlo "Chuckles" Rossi, of Putney and Padova.
I welcome Carlo's suggestion of more electrification on the railways, although the electricity has to be generated somehow, be it by coal, oil, or even timber, I suppose, which gives rise to another form of pollution. Nuclear has its own long term decommissioning problems, and outside the highlands of Scotland, Wales and the Lake District, Britain's topography doesn't lend itself a great deal to hydro-electric generation, and wind or wave power are probably of limited value. Fuel cells in vehicles might seem an ideal solution, but the science has yet to be perfected.
Which people have said "a whiff of smoke can cause cancer or a heart attack"? Certainly not this person.
He would be quite right in stating that smoking is a lot more than a mere irritant, but I think knows full well from these various threads that passive smoking has not been definitively proven to be only negligibly harmful, even tho' F2S would have us believe this to be the case.
31

DaveA,

Forfarshire 28/05/2008 12:50:18
David Of New Mills: I am afraid that the passive smoking debate goes further than blatant lieing, here is an article which says that legitimate research and comment is being censored, at the risk of your career. More Stalinism than science.
"These stories suggest a willingness of influential
anti-tobacco activists, including academics, to hurt legitimate scientists and turn epidemiology into junk science in order to further their agendas. The willingness of epidemiologists to embrace such
anti-scientific influences bodes ill for the field's reputation as a legitimate science." And: "The work of Enstrom and Siegel demonstrates the difficulty that good epidemiologists have in disputing wellfunded public health propaganda, or even mere sloppy science."

Not to forget: "Enstrom was not aware, at the time he
wrote his article, that Jonathan Samet suggested to conference participants that they boycott (Samet's own word)that session. While this is hardly startling when mentioned at the end of a series of papers that describe exclusion, censorship, blackballing, and blackmail by the antitobacco establishment in their attempts to stifle dissent,its implications are darker than they seem at first blush: This was a real scientific meeting, not an anti-tobacco conference.
A call for a boycott is not merely speaking ill of a
researcher or study (time-honored traditions in science);it is a suggestion that others avoid even listening to presentations of evidence and analysis that those in power do not like."

http://www.data-yard.net/science/ethics/antitobacco_activism.pdf

32

Chuckles,

in Pleasantville, flouting the ban 28/05/2008 15:16:38
DFNM30 Id say hydro-electric is the best form of generating electricity. Otherwise nuclear achieves much more and if well maintained is safe. As for SHS I think Dave A has covered it.
33

David from New Mills,

Pleasanrville, U.K. 28/05/2008 19:13:11
#32, Carlo Rossi.
Fine, but where are all the fast flowing rivers in Putney or Padova? Is Padova hilly?
DaveA(AA) of Forfar, Manchester, or London has merely expressed an opinion, as is his right.
34

DaveA,

Forfarshire 28/05/2008 20:49:20
David of New Mills: I am illustrating that passive smoking is being used disengenously by the anti smokers to justify bans. Not only is the ascertion that passive smoking is harmful incorrect, anybody who can see the emperor has no clothes is being hounded, silenced and blackmailed into believing that the earth is flat. Shame on all of you.
35

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 28/05/2008 22:47:32
#34, Dava A(AA), Forfar.
This pro-restrictionist has never "ascerted" that passive smoking is seriously harmful or otherwise, but is happy that smoking is legally restricted, rather than "banned".
"is being hounded, silenced and blackmailed". In what way?
Hopefully the earth isn't too flat. Carlo will need lots of hills for all his desired hydro-electric power.
36

DaveA,

Forfarshire 29/05/2008 11:10:52
David Of New Mills: Your wish is my command.

Various elements of this attack include:

violation of the strict BMJ press embargo in order to poison the press coverage of the paper and "silence" its findings; unsubstantiated and erroneous claims by the ACS that my paper is "fatally flawed" and meaningless; attempts to discredit me and the paper by misstating my dealings with the tobacco industry;
a "peer-reviewed" journal article that contains nine pages of malicious libel about me and my co-author, Dr. Geoffrey C. Kabat; inappropriate inclusion of this legitimate research in the August 17, 2006 District Court decision by Judge Gladys Kessler that the tobacco industry engaged in racketeering; and gross mischaracterization of my research in an attempt to get the University of California to refuse tobacco industry funding.

The exaggeration of the health effects of passive smoking, particularly within in the US, is being driven by powerful US epidemiologists and organizations. In particular, the ACS possesses two massive Cancer Prevention Study cohort data bases, CPS I and CPS II, that contain most of the available US epidemiologic evidence on passive smoking. I used the California portion of the CPS I data base to conduct my research. However, the ACS overstates the strength of its own limited findings on passive smoking, refuses to fully and fairly analyze all the data that it possesses, and puts out false statements about me and my BMJ research. In addition, the Surgeon General's Report overstated the strength of the relationship of passive smoking to mortality within the US because it omitted the BMJ results without comment. This incessant exaggeration of the dangers of passive smoking has taken the focus off the large and real dangers of active smoking.

James E. Enstrom October 31, 2006

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=James_E._Enstrom_in_his_own_words


37

DaveA,

Fofarshire 29/05/2008 11:12:04
Not forgetting:

"A second major piece of evidence is the new Western New York State study, published in the October 9, 2006 Archives of Internal Medicine [8]. This study found “After adjustment for covariates, exposure to secondhand smoke was not significantly associated with an increased risk of myocardial infarction.” Indeed, if all peer-reviewed epidemiologic evidence is fairly and fully evaluated, the relationship between ETS and lung cancer and coronary heart disease mortality in the US is very weak and is consistent with my findings [9].

New developments on this subject will continue to be posted on my Scientific Integrity Instititute website [10] and on this SourceWatch page."


38

DaveA,

29/05/2008 11:16:54
And there is more:

Lifetime Cumulative Exposure to Secondhand Smoke
and Risk of Myocardial Infarction in Never Smokers
Results From the Western New York Health Study, 1995-2001
Saverio Stranges, MD, PhD; Matthew R. Bonner, PhD, MPH; Federica Fucci, MD, MPH;
K. Michael Cummings, PhD, MPH; Jo L. Freudenheim, PhD; Joan M. Dorn, PhD; Paola Muti, MD, MS;
Gary A. Giovino, PhD; Andrew Hyland, PhD; Maurizio Trevisan, MD, MS

Conclusions: Exposure to SHS has declined sharply
among nonsmokers in recent years. In the absence of high levels of recent exposure to SHS, cumulative lifetime exposure to SHS may not be as important a risk factor for MI as previously thought.

Arch Intern Med. 2006;166:1961-1967

http://www.scientificintegrityinstitute.org/ArchIntMed2006.pdf


39

Louis Catorze,

29/05/2008 12:30:24
Mmmmm...lovely fags.
40

Rollo Tommasi,

29/05/2008 18:49:47
DaveA: The health risks of passive smoking are real.

1. "The evidence about health effects of smoke and the legitimate aesthetic objection to involuntary ETS exposure are quite sufficient to justify prohibiting indoor smoking in public places".

2. "The evidence from laboratory and animal studies pointing to a causal association between SHS exposure and risk of CHD is overwhelming".

3. "the failure to show an association between SHS exposure and CHD in the present study may reflect the protective effects of tobacco control efforts that have markedly reduced SHS exposure".

If you want to know my sources, (1) comes from the article you refer to in post 31, while (2) and (3) can be found in the article you discuss in posts 37 & 38.
41

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 29/05/2008 19:22:35
#36/38.
I am impressed that Dave A(AA) of Forfar / London / Manchester has chosen to display such alacrity in responding to my #35, even though I'd scarcely snapped my fingers, but believe Rollo has picked up on his points in his #40.
Btw just where IS Forfarshire? Is it as mythical a place as Pleasantville?
42

mandyv,

banitland 29/05/2008 19:37:35
17# smashing post, samsher, thank you.

David #22 -"Would p.h. advocate a return to horse drawn transport and an army of equine manure shovellers?"

I think you will find a few of the shovellers have moved into parliament.
43

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville. 29/05/2008 20:20:30
#42, Mandy "cut and paste" Vincent, Cambs.
I'd have expected Mandy's Mediterranean sojourn with its cheap cigs and booze, and opportunity for all those duty free goodies to have left her in a somewhat less acerbic frame of mind. Hope she didn't overindulge in the temptations of cheap booze and fattening foods.
Can we now look forward again to her plagiarised contributions, with quotes from Abe Lincoln to boot?
44

DaveA,

Forfarshire 29/05/2008 22:47:02
David Mills: Here is a letter that Michael Thun who has the sinister title of VP, Epidomeology and Surveillance Research, he works for the American Cancer Society. You can view the whole letter yourself in the URL. Thun as you can guess is in the vanguard of supressing any dissent on the harmlessness of passive smoking. They wrote to the Provost of University of California questioning Enstrom's integrity, trying to starve him of research funds. Hence no job and being hounded out of an income. The letter will not cut and paste but will quote one line, enjoy the rest.

"Thank you for your letter notifying us that Chancellor Abrams of UCLA, has reviewed the materials that we provided to you and found no evidence of scientific misconduct on the part of Dr Enstrom."

Thun also writes a letter to Enstrom witholding ACS' mortality data. No doubt that he may come up with even more "wrong results"

http://www.scientificintegrityinstitute.org/SeffrinThunACS032907.pdf







45

DaveA,

Forfarshire 30/05/2008 18:20:41
David Of New Mills. I cannot see your reply to my last post. Forfarshire is an old Scottish area which is now called Angus, where my famly come from. Forfarshire is an Anglised name for Angus.
46

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 30/05/2008 20:52:04
#45, DaveA(AA), Angus/Londonium/Mancunium.
I had not realised that DavaA(AA)'s last post was addressed to me, so had ignored it.
According to Wikipedia, "Forfarshire" was renamed in 1928 as Angus, hence my lack of recognition of the name. I think I'd realised that Angus became part of what was known as Tayside in 1975, as part of Scottish local government reorganisation. However, I must confess that I hadn't realised that Tayside as such was further sub-divided in 1996, and Angus once more became a separate entity, although the name of Tayside apparently lives on in the functions of the police service, fire service, and electoral, valuation, and health boards. I am thus indebted to Dave for expanding my knowledge in this respect, but perhaps he'd prefer to go further back and become part of Pictland, Alba or even Fortiu?
Pleasantville, by yhe way, is an old, entirely fictional, name for what is currently known as fug free New Mills.
47

Rollo Tommasi,

30/05/2008 21:32:22
DaveA: Not sure about the point of your post 44. All it shows to me is pretty damning criticism of the methodology used in the Enstrom & Kabat study. Daring to criticise the pro-smokers' favourite study doesn't exactly make him "sinister" or a suppressor of science.
48

DaveA,

Forfarshire 30/05/2008 22:09:27
Sometimes guys you just do not get it. Let me try and encapsulate my posts. After the peer reviewed Enstrom/Kabat report into passive smoking and how benign it is, the anti tobacco movement has gone into overdrive to discredit any reasearcher or scientist who dissents from their pre-determined view of passive smoking. As amply demonstrated above the American Cancer Society (ACS) wrote to Professor Enstrom's University, accusing him of scientific misconduct. As he had come up with he wrong results. They obviously set out to make him unemployed (-able) and starve him of a seat at the university and stop him from getting funds for future research. If this is not underhand at best and Stalinism at worst, perhaps you can put me right. Also if you go to the BMJ.Com and open the paper and go to "Rapid Respones" you can read the smears, innuendo and downright tantrums of people who are upset that there is ample proof that passive smoking is harmless.
49

DaveA,

Forfarshire 30/05/2008 22:22:52
Rollo: Is your motto "4 legs good, 2 legs bad"? You are using doublespeak. Thun of ACS wrote to UCLA complaining about methodolgy and scientific principles that Enstrom applied to his 39 investigation. As you can see Thun accepts in his letter to the Provost of UCLA that UCLA's investigation conclusions and vindicates Enstrom. Can you see why I am pro choice in smoking and rail against the government that also siad there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?
50

Rollo Tommasi,

30/05/2008 22:36:12
DaveA: You have to distinguish between ad hominem attacks and legitimate criticism of the research techniques.

The BMJ rapid responses do include a number of ad hom attacks on Enstrom & Kabat. That's unacceptable behaviour and I'm not going to defend that at all. However, such unacceptable ad hom attacks are not the exclusive preserve of one side in this debate. The only criticisms I have read about the 2004 SCOTH report are ad hom attacks on SCOTH members.

But there are also very good grounds for criticising the methods of the E&K study and the objectivity of their underlying intent. It's entirely legitimate to make those kinds of complaints and that's what Thun's letter does.

And Thun does not criticise because E&K "had come up with the wrong results" as you claim. He criticises because it is a flawed study making limited use of outdated information.

You're trying to suggest that, because Enstrom was not found guilty of scientific misconduct, the E&K study has been totally vindicated. That's nonsense. The E&K study used a flawed methodology. That is not scientific misconduct (even Thun admits that). But it does considerably weaken the weight of the report's findings. And there is also hard evidence out there that Enstrom underplayed his links to the tobacco industry in writing about his competing interests, so Thun is within his rights to make this claim too.

I notice you've not responded to my point at post 40 that the articles about, which you claim show passive smoking is harmless, or at least its risks are exaggerated, in fact say quite the opposite. Am I to read anything into your silence on this?
51

DeniseX,

31/05/2008 14:07:18
The number of teenagers smoking are falling, but teenage rates for harder drugs are increasing. Compared with harder drugs, cigarettes are less attractive today. In my opinion I would sooner teenagers smoked cigarettes than harder drugs.
52

DeniseX,

31/05/2008 14:09:01
Don't get me wrong, but I'd rather teenagers not take ANY drugs.
53

David from New Mills,

31/05/2008 18:26:08
#51/2, Deni seX.
It's only a different type of narcotic. Both are found to be detrimental to health, and are a symptom of merchants eager to push their product at the expense of others' misery.
54

Stef,

Edinburgh 04/06/2008 15:22:12
I see that our publicly funded, Government propagandist, anti-smoker zealots, David and Rollo are at work again. 2 oddballs with little in their lives except to condemn and vilify others. Sad little fanatics. Sad country we all live in.
55

DeniseX,

04/06/2008 17:08:11
Stef
David prowls through the freedom to choose and forest web sites to preach his pro-restrictionist campaign all round the country. He has even gone onto a Brighton paper web site today preaching to close a club.
56

David from New Mills,

Fug free Pleasantville, U.K. 04/06/2008 19:51:57
#54, wee stef back in Edinburgh.
I see stef is back in what might loosely be referred to as action, but meantime contributing nothing as always to any meaningful debate. I've asked before, but how does he believe me to be "publicly funded". Has he any ideas, factual or otherwise?
Sad little person that he is, perhaps he'd be better returning to Texas to get away from this "Sad country"?
Gardyloo! Wonder how they say that in Texas?
57

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 04/06/2008 20:05:43
#55,Denis eX.
David "even" went on to a Brighton newspaper website from an introduction by Forest's pro-smoker website, which he does find much less partisan than that of the pro-smokers' site of F2S. If Denis cares to read my contribution again, it will be evident to those with a moderate grasp of the English language that I was not in fact "preaching to close a club." What's up? Does Denis only like free speech when it follows the F2S party line?
58

DeniseX,

04/06/2008 20:42:48
When David is caught out, he resorts to name calling. How childish.
59

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 05/06/2008 09:56:41
#58,Deni seX.
How was I "caught out", and what were the names?
60

Stef,

Edinburgh 06/06/2008 14:13:13
#58 Denice,
You are absolutely right, 'childish' being the most applicable thing to say. When one examines, exactly what this Government employee says, it is just empty name calling and deriding folk opposed to his selfish and petty small minded thinking. Why is is it wee Stef, he calls me? lol. This idiot has no idea as to my stature, and he is certainly of a type if he were to physically meet me and too confront me, he would like other small mammals, scurry away into his little hole most rapidly. The Internet is the only solace and place for all these freaks, employed by Browns regime to deflect sensible commenting. As I have said many times before, if indeed David is telling the truth, and not in some way employed and controlled by the regime, then he really is quite simply 'off his trolley'.
61

Stef,

Edinburgh 06/06/2008 14:31:56
For the benefit of any readers who are wondering what he means, by "Gardyloo! Wonder how they say that in Texas"?
this refers to an earlier posting from our resident control freak. I think perhaps more than 2 years ago and perhaps 10,000 or so of his postings ago, David had said, how funny it would be if people living above licensed premises, were to empty their chamber pots on the smokers standing outside. Kinda really underlines what Denice has said about him, in his childishness.
As for Texas, I really do not think it is a place for the likes of the 'Davids' and 'Rollo's' of this world, with their attitudes towards other folk they would be the first ones to be shot, and who could blame the Texans.
62

David from New Mills,

Fug and stef free Pleasantville, U.K. 06/06/2008 21:00:57
#60/1, stef of indeterminate substance, now back in Edinburgh.
Our boy stef seems to feel he has found a soulmate in Denice, tho' I'm not clear where the "c" in the name came from. Apparently he feels he can cry "Fee, Fi,Fo Fum!" and send all the mice and rabbits scurrying for shelter,tho Stef the Great would scarcely apply to him. He also still feels I'm some of government agent, tho' whether employed by HMG or the Scottish Executive, even he seems unclear, as he's never quite managed to say just what my official position might be.
I think the earlier posting he refers to was somewhat less than two years and 10,000 postings ago, but if he can cite the date, I shall be pleased to stand, or, sit corrected.
The thread itself concerned noisy, inconsiderate drinkers outside an Edinburgh hostelry, for whom I suggested the best solution might be the time honoured Edinburgh one of emptying the contents of one's chamber pot to the cry "Gardyloo". A similar emotion was expressed by another correspondent, which seemed fair enough to me as a move to dampen the drinkers' exuberance.
I believe George Bush comes from Texas, and Kennedy was assassinated there. Some form recommendation, I suppose.
63

Stef,

Edinburgh 08/06/2008 16:28:36
#62 David from Newmills,
You are clearly not as bright as you think you are and even more childish than either myself or Denise could ever have perceived. My apologies to Denise for my misspelling of her name. Whether employed by HMG, ASH or any of these corrupt organizations, is somewhat, like yourself is really quite irrelevant, being a childish idiot being the overbearing factor, whether employed or not.
(David from New Mills,
Fug and stef free Pleasantville, U.K.) your starting line is proof enough of your intelligence.
If being concerned and angry about the way in which adult choice has been removed by these wicked and deceitful 'control freaks', the business's going bust, and the climate of hatred being promoted by these lunatics if it is to continue, then I am more than pleased to accept Denise as a soul mate, along with the other many millions of people opposed to this fascist revival.
"When David is caught out, he resorts to name calling. How childish" How right you are Denise, his postings, as just like the one above continue to show him up as the small minded petty, obsessed fool that he is.
David's own confirmation, of his 'Gardyloo' story is confirmation of his own personal state of mind and his regard for others, and then suggesting this was an emotion expressed by another simply enhances the fact of just what this Fascist Government has achieved in this cruel and wicked legislation.
David your knowledge and understanding of Americans, particularly, Texans, is surpassed by your ignorance and intolerance of all people, whom you have little or no regard for, you really are a sad wee freak. George Bush and Kennedy are hardly representative of the many millions of hard working, good American folk, who I have come to love and respect.
I suggest David, that you get out of your worn out computer chair and go and see the world, this may be a start to eventually, getting a life, clearly something that has sadly passed you by.
64

Stef,

Edinburgh 08/06/2008 17:37:52
#Denise,
Just now found David, this time in a Yorkshire paper, The Evening Courier. He really is a very busy little B, for his masters, he has a very important role and job you know, you need to be really bright, artistic, skilled and talented to do what David does, to be a successfully qualified zealot and bigot.
65

David from New Mills,

Very fug free Pleasantville. 08/06/2008 18:52:08
#64, stef.
Stef seems to trawl a lot of "foreign" web sites himself, as do the usual suspects, such as chas.w., Belinda C, Carlo Rossi, and Tim Clarke, all of F2S, and assorted oddballs like Petrol Man and Charles Linskaill.
To save his further intensive trolling, he might spot me also on the Herald, Evening Times, Richmond and Twickenham Times, Daily Mail and Halifax Courier.
All this from a bright, artistic, skilled, talented, highly intelligent, articulate poster and ardent supporter of smoking restrictions, with not a penny payment from the public purse for his "tens of thousands of postings", just the satisfaction of being able to freely express his opinions.
Gardyloo!
66

DeniseX,

08/06/2008 19:16:55
Stef.
I've noticed that he is ignored on other sites. Ignore him and hopefully he'll go away, especially when he makes the usual stupid remarks.
67

David from New Mills,

Still very fug and stef free Pleasantville 08/06/2008 19:31:20
#63, stef.
Deni at #58, said "When David is caught out, he resorts to name calling." At #59, I asked 'how so?', and still have had no explanation.
I am perhaps a lot brighter than stef cares to recognise, but I leave readers to make their own judgment on the matter.
Having skipped through stef's long diatribe about fascists and the usual nonsense, I would point out that my fellow correspondent on the "Gardyloo" thread, was perhaps a little kinder than myself in suggesting that a bucket of water be thrown over the noisy miscreants, but the sentiment was the same and quite independent of my thought, though equally amusing.
Has stef managed to find the date of the Gardyloo thread, some two years ago or otherwise? Perhaps not.
I didn't think President Kennedy came from Texas, just somehow got shot there, so what harm did he do "the hard working, good American folk?"
Apart from persisting in trying to connect me with some or any government body, quango, health organisation or pharmaceutical company, stef has managed to sprinkle his post with typical examples of name calling regarding myself, which is his usual ploy when arguments run dry, the latter occuring very often with him.
Perhaps Deni had stef in mind at #58, and just got a tad confused?
Gardyloo, Bud!
68

David from New Mills,

Still very fug free Pleasantville 08/06/2008 19:37:52
#66,Deni seX.
Deni can but live in hope. So re #58, "How was I "caught out", and what were the names?" Has Deni managed to work out an answer yet?
69

Stef,

Edinburgh 12/06/2008 04:50:38
#DeniseX,
I know, I know, I know, that 'Norris' from Newmills, should be ignored, however! on the other hand, oddballs such as this, I feel should be otherwise, confronted, they clog all sensible debate, and I understand all sensible people want shot of them also. Imagine, a future in this fools 'restrictiveness' World, with him being there, and all his petty uniformed freaks roaming about, intimidating folk,, Aghhh!!!!! another nightmare coming on!. As I have said many times, he is either a paid plant, or he is a complete lunatic, whichever, he is totally representative of the lower end of support for these wicked Government policies. No doubt, he will respond, that is what these characters 'get there rocks off on'.. lol, sad really. Certainly, he is not somebody that either man or woman would enjoy to spend an evening with, or does he give a damn about all the peoples lives that have been destroyed by this evil legislation.
70

David from New Mills,

Still very fug free Pleasantville 12/06/2008 10:59:10
#69, stef.
Stef continues to hallucinate and have his illusions and delusions, as ever.
Perhaps his arch-enemy "big pharma" will one day develop a panacea for all his ills.
I assume his "otherwise, confronted" was intended to read "confronted, otherwise" and poor little stef was just his usual confused self.
Gardyloo, as always.
71

DeniseX,

12/06/2008 12:40:38
8 David from New Mills,Pleasntville, U.K. 27/05/2008 13:08:10
To the person who likes to pick people up on their spelling, did you mean 'Pleasantville'?
72

David from New Mills,

Still very fug free Pleasantville. 12/06/2008 13:16:16
#71, Deni seX.
Deni must be very pleased to have scrolled back so far to trace my regional spelling variation. Perhaps the short lived jubilation will now result in a response of some, or any, kind to my #68, tho' I shan't hold my breath in expectation.

 

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