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Scots football stars team up to support the union



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LEADING businessman Sir Tom Farmer today revealed he will vote for the SNP in next month's elections.
The multi-millionaire Kwik-Fit founder said he did not accept the "scare stories" from the Nationalists' opponents. The Edinburgh business tycoon donated £100,000 to the SNP last year in a bid to create a "level playing field" with other parties but
refused to say who he would be backing.

Today he was among 100 business people who signed an advert backing the SNP and Alex Salmond.

Others include Stagecoach boss Brian Souter, who has given the party £500,000; Sir George Mathewson, former chief executive of the Royal Bank of Scotland; Sandy Orr of MacDonald Orr; Tommy Miah of the Raj Group; David Urquhart of David Urquhart Travel Ltd; and Crawford Beveridge, former chief executive of Scottish Enterprise.

Sir Tom said: "When the election campaign started I'd hoped we'd have a real quality debate between the main political parties. Instead it seems the most important objective of several parties is to attack the SNP and ignore putting in front of voters firm proposals of plans for the next few years.

"I do not accept the scare stories being spread of fire and flood if we decide to stand up for ourselves.

"There is no sense of responsibility under the current set up. Right now Scotland has a management team - what we need is a government. I have come to the conclusion that the SNP led by Alex Salmond has the ability and the proposals to take Scotland forward, and they have my full support and my vote."

Meanwhile, Scottish football legends today teamed up to voice their support for the Union without backing any particular party.

Big names including Scotland boss Alex McLeish and Manchester United manager Sir Alex Ferguson put their name to an advertising campaign urging voters to keep Britain together.

The advert states: "We are proud Scots who have been proud to represent our country around the world.

"We are proud that Scotland has always stood on its own two feet, but we also believe that Scotland stands taller because we are part of the United Kingdom.

"The United Kingdom is a country Scotland helped build.

"We urge every patriotic Scot to help maintain Scotland's place in the United Kingdom which has served Scotland well."

Those backing the ad include Rangers manager Walter Smith, former Scotland boss Craig Brown, Rangers legends John Greig, Graeme Souness, Ally McCoist and Sandy Jardine, Lisbon Lions Billy McNeill, Bobby Lennox, Bertie Auld and Tommy Gemmell and former Celtic and Aberdeen star Roy Aitken.

Ex-Scotland captain Gary McAllister and Dundee United manager and Hearts legend Craig Levein also lend their names to the campaign.

First Minister Jack McConnell today targeted undecided voters with a warning that the SNP posed a "clear and immediate danger" to hardworking Scots.

He said: "The SNP's sums just don't add up. And the consequence will be that every hardworking family will have to pay more tax to make the SNP's books balance."

Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Nicol Stephen today pledged a "zero tolerance" approach to bullying backed by £6m of extra funding. Visiting Edinburgh's Blackhall Primary School, he said: "Too many children suffer the pain and anguish of bullying in schools. It's an issue parents tell me is at the top of their concerns.

"We will take a zero tolerance approach to bullying and violence in the classroom. We will give young people themselves a say in how to deal with bullies. Every school will be asked to do more to support kids and beat bullying in Scotland's schools."

Scottish Conservative leader Annabel Goldie called for American-style yellow school buses to replace parents dropping youngsters off in cars. She said: "Yellow buses would cut congestion and reduce emissions, and most importantly they would be much safer than the school run. Indeed, statistics show they are nearly one hundred times safer."



The full article contains 663 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 23 April 2007 12:01 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: The union
 
1

BIG EYE,

Paisley 23/04/2007 13:01:34

As a lifelong Tartan Army member I am appalled that the Scottish National Team manager and his assistant should participate in this blatant political propoganda.

He is of course entitled to his own personal view but like many others in less sensitive positions than his own he should keep his political views to himself. This could have very serious implications if as seems likely the 2012 Games in London will want a British football side. will he want to be British then and when do we appoint a new manager?

2

FrancesP,

23/04/2007 13:04:03

The only questions you ever really need to ask about an advertising campaign like this are "who commissioned it?" and "who paid for it?" Then you'll discover what the true agenda is. Call me cyncical, but I have a feeling it might be less about "saving the Union" and more about "saving Labour's bacon".

3

James Annand,

23/04/2007 13:04:24

So on the one hand we have 100 top Scottish businessmen and women giving their support to the SNP.

On the other we have a bunch of guys paid to kick a wee ball about for our entertainment.

I know who I would listen to.

4

James Annand,

23/04/2007 13:09:08

Come to think of it, I am outraged that this has higher billing on the politics page, and goes into greater detail on:

The people putting their name to the advert.

The wording of the advert.


This is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Footballers are hardly the intellectual elite. Why should I give a cow's backside what they think. Run around some more my boys! That's what you're paid for. Keep your mouth shut unless it's to say "Line Wullie!"

5

rab, glasgow,

23/04/2007 13:11:17

I will not be back at hampden as long as ginger nut
mcleish is manager. souness, ferguson dont even have a vote in scotland,ferguson has,nt lived in scotland for over 20 years and knows fcuk all.
Just like labour to try and mix politics with sport
they are bloody desperate.

6

A Voting Floater,

23/04/2007 13:15:32

Aye, it's a funny old game politics!

The Dirty Digger is promoting the Union through his infected organs. I wonder why he is so afraid of the SNP.

7

Keren, It's time,

23/04/2007 13:17:35

Everyone knows most footie players have their brains in their feet and not in their heads.

8

James Annand,

23/04/2007 13:18:08

Oh, and Scotland hasn't 'stood on it's own two feet' for just over 300 years.

9

cheuchtar,

23/04/2007 13:23:17

These footballl players are at least consistent - crap at evrything.

10

SeriouslyAmused,

23/04/2007 13:25:28

So 100 business leaders come out to support the SNP, but what's the headline?

11

troonjambo,

troon I suppose 23/04/2007 13:32:12

While I agree with FrancesP's comments I think BIG EYE makes a worrying point with regard to the current Scotland manager's views on Britishness when thinking about the olympic games "British" team for London 2012. More worried about that than his views affecting the result of the elections next week. If I was in any doubt about who to vote for (which I'm not - been voting SNP since the '70s) then the backing for the Union by these ex-players would just deter me from voting for any of the unionist parties. First we have a national manager dumping the Scotland team for a team who's fans sing Rule Britannia and God Save the Queen - now the current manager wants us to stay British.

Roll on May 3rd and maybe, if we get the right result, by the time the over-priced games in London take place we could have a team of young Scottish players representing us!! At least I would actually want to watch them.

12

Diego Maradona,

23/04/2007 13:38:13

Tommy Sheridan ees a cool dude.

13

eric,

23/04/2007 13:47:41

Just say no ,

14

walter,

23/04/2007 13:58:24

Footballers are in the public eye as are business people and they have as much right to having their political view made public as anybody else.
If one of Scotland's greatest ever film stars who does not live in the country can have his political views in the public domain why not one of Scotland's greatest ever football managers.
It is a stupid question really because I already know the answer, as with the people who support the union that used to post on here have stopped because of the personal attacks it is the same with personalities who have articles written.

15

Darryl Matheson,

Elgin, Morayshire 23/04/2007 13:59:05

#3

I am afraid to tell you the SNP don't have 100 top businessmen and women supporting them, there are only about 4-6 that most people will have heard of, the rest are all small businesses.

16

Merouane,

Edinburgh 23/04/2007 14:03:36

#15. That depends on your definition of 'top businessmen'. Are there 100 Scots businessmen of any political persuasion that the average Scot could name?

17

Jim Rockford,

23/04/2007 14:04:51

Lynnet Leisure sponsored this ad.

http://www.lynnetleisure.com/

Perhaps they will produce a Press Release explaining their motivation to back the advert and then an intrepid EN hack could cut and paste it into a follow-up article?

18

James Annand,

23/04/2007 14:09:39

Maybe you're right Darryl, but I haven't seen any list yet.

I'd still prefer to listen to people that are making their way in the world on the back of their ingenuity and business acumen rather than their footspeed/foot eye co-ordination.


And it's all very well to for footballers to express their opinion, but this is a political stunt designed to one up the SNP's 100. It's really pretty pathetic.

19

cataibh,

Ach yur seen it 23/04/2007 14:10:32

Would all these players of yester year favour disposing of the Scotland national team and amalgamate with England. Count how many have signed the so called campaign, and then think there are hundreds who have not. Remember Walter Smith walked out on Scotland.

20

I'm no really here,

23/04/2007 14:16:00

Well with Hurricane Jeck promising to pump 100m into Scottish Football, what do you expect. I used to be in the same school as Sandy Jardine, his brother Jimmy was the better football player.

21

Tom R,

23/04/2007 14:26:54

If there was no Scottish Nationalism there would be no Scotland international football team.

In that respect, because of the origins of international football, Scotland has been very lucky that it has been allowed to compete internationally at all.

One could make as good a case for Catalonia (Barcelona etc) having a separate football team.

There is no certainty that Scotland's luck will hold indefinitely without independence

22

Edward,

23/04/2007 15:18:21

All bought and paid for by an ever desperate Labour Party.
Its a pity these 'sportsmen' overlooked the little aspect of how badly Labour and the Libdems have run Scotland for the last EIGHT years, never mind, with there earnings, it doesnt really matter to them

23

GD,

Glasgow 23/04/2007 15:52:44

Sad, Sad, Sad..... Using Footballers now shows how pathetic Labour are and how stupid they think we (the general public of Scotland) are.
Do you think they'll consider using footballers for their campaigns in the South? Of course not, they're all too smart down there to fall for rubbish like that!!
Shame on all of you so-called Scots football legends too (especially Alex McLeish) for trying to encourage your countrymen to give up their the opportunity to vote democratically on independence. Whether you agree with it or not, we all deserve the right to vote!

24

Boy Wonder,

23/04/2007 15:57:29

Hmmm .....

100 businessmen vs 100 footballers??

On the subject of Scottish Independence??

Duh, like NO CONTEST!!!

Who in their right minds would listen to a bunch of sportsmen as against businessmen??

Not me anyway!

25

Rodster,

Glasgow 23/04/2007 16:10:13

I wonder how the supporters in Parkhead area feel about these British stalwarts that played for them , I suppose some of the blue noses are no surprise ( and before you start giving me pelters I am a blue nose just not a rule brittania one)
I find it as offensive to see a Rangers supporter in a England top as an Celtic fan in an Eire strip.
I am Scottish in my politics and Scottish in my national football team

26

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 23/04/2007 16:20:04

OH DEAR LABOUR!!!!

Never mind scraping the bottom of the barrel, this is SCRAPING THE EARTH BELOW THE BARREL!!!!

SNP May 3...no matter what some ex-footballers say.

27

Rodster,

Glasgow 23/04/2007 16:21:23

another thought Joke Mconnel the Berti Vogts of Scottish Politics

28

Brianwci,

www.edinburghtechniques.co.uk 23/04/2007 16:28:40

Now guys, let's be honest here, this is one for the Labour party. I for one would be well pleased if they were supporting the SNP so let's give Labour credit where credit is due, they've actually scored a goal in this campaign.

Of course the thread which connects most of these guys is Rangers FC and their fanatical anti Catholic anti Scottish rhetoric with their God Save the Queen nonsense and their Union Jacks. I wonder if Ally McCoist is on the list. Interesting that Gordon Strachan isn't.

I hope someone in the SNP is contacting other high flyers like Gordon to find out if they are supporting the SNP because these lists do count.

I'm sure the list will sway some undecided men but I don't think it will make anyone change their mind so at present we are still in the lead and this list won't make a huge difference.

I'm surprised that Craig Brown is there, I did some work with him and Andy Roxburgh and they were head and shoulders above the other managers at the time and that includes Jim McLean who was a tactical genius.

29

Brianwci,

www.edinburghtechniques.co.uk 23/04/2007 16:35:43

Rodster No 26 I'm right there with you. If Celtic and Rangers want to genuinely tackle their respective bigots they will ban the Tricolour and Union Jack from their respective grounds and replace both with the Saltire flying above their Stands.

They will also ensure that there is no bigotry in the songs sung on their respective busses or social clubs.

I hope you are able to lead many more from that world famous club of yours into the SNP fold.

30

Andrew Allan,

23/04/2007 16:42:39

Just think of this, the Tories win the next General Election. As promised they reform the way in which political parties are financed, but to do so they close all regional assemblies like the Scottish parliament, also as promised.
In ten years time the Doctors say the NHS will not be free at the place of entry, so the British government runs the whole thing as one concern and says it is the only way to make it workable.
FIFA decide enough is enough, and says there has to be a Great Britain football team. The Scottish league system has lost too many teams and can’t fight it off any longer. Two years later all other leagues within the British mainland fold. Two years after that all players being picked to play for Great Britain are English. Two years after that the team changes its name to England, but this time there is no chance there will be a Scotland team. All other national teams follow suit.
The system of law changes next, as one single British law system. No more Scottish identity. You might think this is too much like fiction, but at the moment all of these things are likely to happen within the next ten years or so, especially if we stay in the union.

31

Scottish Unionist,

23/04/2007 17:05:01

#24 The Labour Party aren't "using" these footballers. These men are not endorsing any one political party.

Sometimes one has to question the sanity of these businessmen who want an independent Scotland with a smaller public sector and a more business friendly attitude who then endorse the SNP. The SNP are not some variation on the eastern european freedom, low tax parties. In fact, they are the opposite.

It's good that some well known Scots are coming out to endorse the Union. Contrary to what has been said, there is absolutely no contradiction between being a proud Scot, and wanting to maintain one of the most successful political/economic unions ever known!

As a reguarly attender of Scotland matches, I couldn't care if a particular player supported the SNP or not. I care about the commitment and passion shown on the pitch, nationalist or unionist. We're all Scots.

32

Andrew Allan,

23/04/2007 17:13:04

Scottish Unionist, #32.
Scotland stopped being treated properly as a member of the union in the 1950s, and everything has gone down hill ever sinse. Being a small country doesn't mean you have a smaller market anymore, now we have e-commerse which has also created the long tail effect.

33

James Donald,

Edinburgh 23/04/2007 17:13:43

Walter Smith - "deserted" Scotland mid-campaign for Rangers.
Craig Brown - who ever gave a toss what he thinks?
Graeme Souness - Broomhoose schemie.
The rest - all fine headers of the ball but it does take its toll.
They know best........

34

Andrew Allan,

23/04/2007 17:18:24

James Donald, #34.
Alot of those names have been respected, though I know what you mean, you wouldn't exactly ask any of them to run the country for you, would you.

35

Merouane,

Edinburgh 23/04/2007 17:42:39

#24. If any party did this down south, they would be totally destroyed by the non-tabloid media. Unfortunately we don't have a quality media sector to speak of.

36

happyhibbie,

inch, edinburgh 23/04/2007 17:54:55

Who gives a stuff about what the torn-faced Funguson has to say. All the best to the SNP and the boys from Milan.

37

James Annand,

23/04/2007 18:53:18

Just thought I'd point out to those that were surprised about Craig Brown. He played for Rangers many moons ago. Same with Alex Ferguson.

In fact only around four or five of the members of that list have never been affiliated with Rangers.

38

James Donald,

Edinburgh 23/04/2007 18:56:32

#35. Andrew Allan - yes, respected for plying football (I respected a few of them myself before I read this article) but most i wouldn't ask to run a bath never mind the country.

39

Cam3,

Scotland 23/04/2007 19:08:13

Point 1 - why does this piece report Farmer's support, with a headline centering on the pro-union 'celebrities'.

Point 2 - couldn't give a STUFF about what meat-headed football 'stars' say! Generally known for getting drunk, beating up their girlfriends, and having sleazy affairs.

Says a lot obout the mindset of New Labour. They would have us celebrating our 'Scottishness' barking at the TV in essentially inconsequential football matches - while, under the yoke of London, we deny our sons and daughters a future amongst the other small nations of the world.

Pathetic!

Stick to fitba lads - it's what you do worst - next to political commentary of course.

SEE THROUGH THE LABOUR SPIN SCOTLAND!

SNP in May.

40

craigy,

south lanarkshire 23/04/2007 19:21:06

mccoist, smith , greig , souness, jardine, mcliesh , who cares what they think, anyone who allows these people to sway their voting intentions should'nt be allowed to vote in the first place.

labour are scraping the bottom of the barrel here. btw ponsonby's ripping mcdonnel to shreds on stv right now!!!

41

Cam3,

Scotland 23/04/2007 19:27:27

Well done Tom!

And hundreds of thousands of others will be joining you - having seen through the Labour spin, the pathetic nature of shuffling the Labour cabinet North of the border for a few days

Isn't this a matter 'reserved only for Holyrood?' - to turn the mirror on our spineless First Minister.

Football meatheads say...

'...stay in dah union, duuh, screem at duh telly, duuuuh, noo, hiv a few cans, duuuuuh...and...duhhh. stay in duh union...'

Here's what we'll do...

...we'll enjoy the game AFTER our country gains some self-******* respect!

It'll make the match all the sweeter at that!

In the meantime, I'll listen to the THOUSANDS of Scots voters who've finally seen through the spin and are TIRED of being told they're not good enough. Oh - that - and perhaps these businessmen and women? No?

SNP!

See through the Labour lies and spin Scotland!

42

James Annand,

23/04/2007 19:29:51

We're not going to allow the nationalists to take Scotland back. - Jack McConnell.

Did anyone else just hear the best wee numpty in the world say that?

I couldn't believe my ears.

43

Cam3,

Scotland 23/04/2007 20:02:08

Dear BBC.

I wonder if you could include any URLs or links that bear some manner of relevance to the piece on the SNP TV launch - and perhaps help your readers navigate to the feature in question? Tried various options - can't seem to see it anywhere... ...the right-hand navigation, as per best BBC practice - would be great.

Thanks and regards.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6582019.stm

44

IainGlasgow,

Glasgow 23/04/2007 20:18:22

Rangers and Celtic have coveted getting into the English Premier league for years. As unlikely as that is now, post independence there will be absolutely no prospect of it whatsoever.

From a Scotland manager's point of view the reason the team has revived its success is in part due to the experience some players have of the English league. Perhaps Labour have convinced them independence would present a barrier to Scottish players playing in England in the future. Many intelligent people still (for reasons I'm at a loss to fathom) support Labour so its no surprise some footballers do.

45

Sabremesh,

23/04/2007 20:18:45

What a bunch of pseudo-intellectual snobs. Why shouldn't a footballer - who has represented Scotland internationally - have a valid opinion on the issue of devolution?

And what have you whingers done for your country to allow you to patronise some of Scotland's most famous sons?

Scottish independence is essentially an emotive issue that transcends politics and economics - everyone's opinion is equally valid.

46

iang,

Glasgow 23/04/2007 20:18:49

@Brianwci

this is NOT about football but you show your own bias.

Lisbon Lions Billy McNeill, Bobby Lennox, Bertie Auld and Tommy Gemmell and former Celtic and Aberdeen star Roy Aitken. That is 5 Ex-Celtic players.

Walter Smith, John Greig, Graeme Souness, Ally McCoist and Sandy Jardine, Alex McLeish. Thats 6 Ex-Rangers Player/managers.

So a common thread is Rangers???? Not really.

Like rodster I am a bluenose who happens to follow Scotland, like many others including my entire family now, and I have voted SNP since I could first vote in the early 80's. I joined the SNP when I was 16 ffs.

Every group will have supporters of the union and independence so don't try and make this out to be some kind of Rangers thing only...oh! and btw not only has the Saltire always flown over Ibrox but it is emblazoned on the Rangers home shirt as part of the shoulder design.

47

IainGlasgow,

Glasgow 23/04/2007 20:20:14

Top footballers do have ALOT of money. Perhaps some of them think there might still be some peerages on the market.

48

iang,

Glasgow 23/04/2007 20:23:12

#45

the only reason they have done that is to get access to the TV money that the non-oldfirm teams denied them so they could compete on a level playing field with those from England.

EPL £2.7Billion over the next 3 years in TV money.
SPL £65Million over the next 3 years in TV money.

tell me why they would want to join the EPL now?

And again...this has nothing to do with the Election.

Maybe when the SNP get in we can get reimburussed from the EPL for the illegal selling of Scottish TV rights before the SPL screwed themselves.

49

Stuart D,

Glasgow 23/04/2007 21:00:23

I just wrote to the SFA on this and I urge others to do the same. The complaint was as follows:

I write with reference to Alex McLeish putting his name to a political campaign in the build up to the Scottish elections. I think it is a misuse of his position that he should be so public about his feelings. I feel that he should apologise for these comments and remove his name from the campaign. To suggest that a Scotsman would only be patriotic if they vote for a pro-union party is appalling as in this statement he his questioning the patriotism of a large section of the Tartan Army.
I look forward to hearing your response and seeing action on this.
Best regards,
Stuart


And that's not even to mention that I disagree entirely with what he thinks (and I'm not just refering to the selection of Gary Teale in the last two games!).

50

Auckland Arab,

New Zealand 23/04/2007 21:38:07

There does seem an element of desperation about all this. McConnell and Labour have tried everything to dent the SNP’s lead in the polls. Now in one last throw of the dice, at last chance saloon, they play the joker(s). I have no problem with footballers having a political view, I would however question the timing of this announcement and its blatant political (ie Labour) implied bias. No matter, I can’t believe many people are going to vote Labour simply because McLeish wants them to. His days in the Scotland job are probably numbered, as he seems to have a habit of turning teams around (normally for the worse). What he has also ensured by speaking out is the undying opposition of a large number of fans who will remember this and use it as a stick to hit him with when the wheels start to fall off the national team cart. As for the motivation of the rest, its anyone’s guess – political pressure, genuine long held beliefs, cash for honours…. Who cares.

As a United fan, I am disappointed Levein has joined the ranks of the anti SNP lobby. I would have preferred him to keep his views to himself. But in any event he does not exactly carry a lot of weight with me when deciding who to vote for.

The death throws of a dying regime are getting pretty ugly to watch. Watch out for more worthies being rolled out in a pseudo dog and pony show. Sorry Jack but the game’s up.

51

rab, glasgow,

23/04/2007 22:03:36

43. James Annand / Aye, I watched the idiot on bbc ,he made a complete erse of himself again as he did not answer questions just recited his usual
garbage.

GOOD BYE mCONnell you are a total prat.

52

AL67,

Edinburgh 23/04/2007 22:13:37

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, I am appalled that Alex McLeish has entered the debate as our national coach. I will always support Scotland, but I will not be supporting him. I suspect he has not thought through the implications of his comments or rather, perhaps, he remains Rangers through and through - just like Walter (ditch Scotland when Murray comes calling) Smith. As other commentators have noted, we are not dealing with Scotland's finest intellects when we consider the comments of these sportsmen. I hope that the SFA take action against McLeish and examine his contract carefully.

53

Robbie,

NZ 23/04/2007 22:17:04

"We are proud that Scotland has always stood on its own two feet, but we also believe that Scotland stands taller because we are part of the United Kingdom.” How can they possibly work that out? Scotland is unheard of because it is part of the UK/England.
Some Scots are really unique in the World. I wonder how many NZ ‘All Blacks’ would wish New Zealand to forgo its sovereignty - perhaps one? nope - none!!! In their travels around the World did these footballers meet any other players who’d deny their country’s independence? One, two, none?
They urge, “... every patriotic Scot to help maintain Scotland's place in the United Kingdom which has served Scotland well."
If they knew some facts about their beloved Union’s politics they might have learned of the Scots (and Irish) transported to Australia because of their political views: “The First Scottish Martyrs, Maurice Magarot, Thomas Muir, Thomas Fyshe Palmer, William Skirving and Joseph Gerrald who supported the ideals of liberty, equality and fraternity.” or the “Scots Rebels of 1820. simply seeking changes in electoral practices, in the hope of winning a less corrupt form of government - in the first political ‘rebellion’, nineteen Scots from Bonnymuir and Paisley were transported to NSW after two of their colleagues were executed.” Check "The Scottish Radicals" by Margaret & Alastair MacFarlane. Events like these were never taught in our schools only the power and glory of the British Empire and how it conquered primitive peoples. I wonder how mush historical. political or economic studies our fitba player have pursued. Remember all these guys through their undoubted skills have been extremely well of most of their lives - they left the real World a long time ago.
The Russian people used to know that their Government and media lied to them and so were wary of what they read. In the UK people actually believed what the Government, media and histor

54

Sabremesh,

23/04/2007 22:36:29

Robbie: numpty. Scotland, as part of the UK, is a permanent member of the UN security council, and as a result, an integral part of one the five most powerful nations on earth. A go-it-alone Scotland would be a political minnow in terms of UN relations.

In economic terms, an independent Scotland would give up its status as part of the 5th largest economy (GDP nominal), to 36th, slotting in between Thailand and Venezuela, or didn't Alex Salmond tell you that?

In other words, voting SNP is the political/economic equivalent of cutting off your nose to spite your face, but as an Englishman, I implore you to do just that - you've been a weight around our necks for too long already.

55

GD,

Glasgow 23/04/2007 22:45:39

#32 My point exactly, Everyone is entitled to their point of view just as WE are also entitled to vote democratically on the future of Scotland and the union.
The problem here is that the Westminster parties are trying to deny us that right and their only concern is keeping it from us.
A referendum wouldn't take place for another few years yet and the outcome would be directly related to how well the SNP had performed. If they didn't produce the goods we'd all vote NO then kick them out the next year, but we have to at least give them and ourselves the opportunity and stop listening to the flood, famine and plague of locusts bullhist!

56

Scottish Unionist,

23/04/2007 22:59:08

An independence referendum would be interesting. The unionists would certainly win it!

Supposing your wish for an independence referendum was granted, and Scotland voted 'no', what would happen next (very likely since support for independence is under 30%)?

Would it be like the Irish and the Nice Treaty whereby the result was not accepted until the Irish people said 'yes'?

57

John S,

23/04/2007 22:59:32

#57 - The following European countries are members of the UN and have membership of the Olympic movement.

Cyprus 757,795
Luxembourg 457,250
Malta 403,507
Iceland 296,734
Andorra 71,201
Liechtenstein 34,753
Monaco 32,543
San Marino 29,251

Off course all these countries are political minnows in terms of UN relations, I do'nt think so.

There are another 12 countries in Europe with a population of 5.5 million or less who are also members of the UN and the Olympic movement.

If Scotland was a member of the UN do you think we would be in Iraq ? at least the Scottish Government would have had a choice.

Economics:- Why does England want Scotland to remain part of the UK Scottish North sea oil and gas that is why.
The Labour government hid the McCrone report in 1975.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4238744.stm

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article3319...

Vote SNP 3rd May.

58

Bill, Dunblane,

23/04/2007 23:10:43

Tommy G - next time you ask for 'Streets of London' yer no' gettin' it! ;)

(It's a Dunblane thing!)

L15 BON

59

John S,

23/04/2007 23:37:55

Pro-Union advert ‘unlawful’ - Herald - April 24 2007

The political advertisement in some newspapers yesterday opposing independence placed on behalf of former footballers and managers was in breach of electoral law.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.1349...

60

oder,

Scotland 23/04/2007 23:39:14

*Sabremesh

In economic terms, an independent Scotland would give up its status as part of the 5th largest economy to 36th.
What would that make England 25th?

61

murren59,

Jaw'gya 23/04/2007 23:53:59

Seeing as how both sides of the Bigot Brothers are in such favour of the Union...the clubs should now merge in UNION and with help from a grateful Blair / Brown, be finally granted permission to play in the EPL.
Flip a coin to see which famous name this new Union Club takes. If it's Glasgow Rangers, they then play in green/white hoops at their new Parkhead home...or if it's Glasgow Celtic, they play in blue at Ibrox.
Damn, I'm a genius! This would eliminate sectarianism in Scotland in nae time at'aw!

62

GD,

Glasgow 23/04/2007 23:58:43

#59 Who knows what would happen, but it certainly seems like the unionist parties don't share your optimism about a guaranteed success at the polls or they wouldn't be so intent on denying us the opportunity.
And of course some people will never accept the outcome no matter which way it goes and will want to vote on the same issue again in a number of years.
That's democracy for you!

63

Robbie,

NZ 24/04/2007 00:28:48

57. Sabremesh " Robbie: numpty......"
What is it with so many Scots and their use of ‘numpty’ - surely it is well by its sell by date. It is solely to upset posters with different views or to win them around t their way of thinking? Sabremesh, I never bother using insults nor do any of my family -maybe you should try it as it does make one happier. Anyway - your statement , “Scotland, as part of the UK, is a permanent member of the UN security council, and as a result, an integral part of one the five most powerful nations on earth. A go-it-alone Scotland would be a political minnow in terms of UN relations.” Scotland is not a permanent member of the UN Security Council. Scotland has no political sovereignty (to war or not to war), Scotland has no seat at the UN. Scotland has little recognition around the world. (I hear England and the continent ’all the time’) Unlike virtually every other nation many Scots have not enough self-esteem or ambition in forging their own destiny.
It would matter not a jot if the Scottish people 'en masse' were against a decision made by the UK at the UN or anywhere as Scotland does not have a sovereign voice in International Relations. Scotland could not decide to assist in say East Timor, Bougainville, be nuclear free, arrange trade deal or any deals with another sovereign nation and could not decide to remain from conflicts as in say Iraq. Its influence is most definite governed by Westminster. Compare this with New Zealand, Ireland, Switzerland, Norway, Luxembourg, Sweden, Australia, Iceland, Denmark, Singapore, Finland. ALL very prosperous pretty small in population or size. Let us say it again independence is the ‘NORM’. Virtually all nations wish and prosperous under self-government.
New Zealand, Sabremesh, in effect has had more affect in then UN than has Scotland on many issues. New Zealand has an 'independent' foreign policy; New Zealand retains a nuclear-free zone status (possibly at t

64

Robbie,

NZ 24/04/2007 00:29:58

57. Sabremesh
NZ has it's own independent voice at the UN and does not need London to speak for it. If you don't know what NZ and other nations role as members of the UN Sabremesh I can't help you - just read and study.
I actually gave a link with the results of about 1,270,000 for New Zealand's role in the UN. (I;ll check it later)
Did the same for Scotland and it's mostly extracts from Scottish papers.
At present NZ are involved (by request not invasion), in East Timor, the Solomon Islands and Fiji.
The East Timor elections are constantly on TV here, as are the French - in Australia and the US - the Scottish elections not a dickie -bird you don’t exist.
NZ has a huge responsibility through our Government and volunteers throughout the Pacific ( I have one daughter just returned from volunteer work there.). We are always there as a peace force as long as it's with UN sanction. We have our own - independent sovereign policies eg., not to invade Iraq - not to allow nuclear propelled ships in our waters. Crikey whether its about whaling - environmental issues - child care and human rights NZ has a voice at the UN.
Tell me Sabremesh what's Scotland's World view? and tell us what sovereignty has achieved at the UN in the last 50 years for Sweden - Switzerland - Luxemburg Etc., etc. Has London told you?
NZ has like most countries problems but it still has a higher quality of life than the UK and especially Scotland - I would dearly love to see this change with Scotland sitting at the UN (you’d likely have more in common with NZ and Norway than Westminster).

65

Robbie,

NZ 24/04/2007 00:34:42

57. Sabremesh
“ In economic terms, an independent Scotland would give up its status as part of the 5th largest economy (GDP nominal), to 36th, slotting in between Thailand and Venezuela, or didn't Alex Salmond tell you that?”
Economics are not the be all and end all
GDP is not a good barometer of the standard of living nor quality of life in a nation. As I have posted before re this matter taking the GDP of a nation and then averaging it out per head - gives little indication of the 'Quality of Life' of the average citizen or their average 'wealth'. A country may have some very large companies with huge turn-over and that nation may have a fairly large GDP. It may however also have a few greedy ba*sa*ds who enjoy most of the nation’s wealth and many who are virtually below the poverty line. The USA has the greatest GDP but a lot of poverty despite the per capita GDP. The GDP (even the per capita) tells only the economic activity of a nation not how prosperous its average citizen is. Rich nations can have poor citizens. Scotland may have a larger GDP than say New Zealand but I (having lived in both countries) sincerely believe that NZ has for most of its citizens (the Scottish ones anyway) a much higher quality of life that should be the goal of a government. Many go on about economics but some since the massive revolutions of 1848 when some have shed blood to gain their independence - few if any that I know struggled for their self determination because of economic factors - these came later and as far as Western democracies are concerned all improved with independence.
As economist and a statistician Dr. EF Schumacher stated in his belief of self-reliant economies, and his book ‘Small is Beautiful’. Got to - keep happy and get a new abusive word ‘numpty ’is so unoriginal.

66

Buck Rogers,

in the 25th Century 24/04/2007 03:19:07

So Alex McLeish, Walter Smith, Alex Ferguson, Craig Levein and Ally McCoist think so much about the Labour Party that they are prepared to forget about B****** Blair murdering woman and children in Iraq with his sanctions against the Iraqi people.

It is a matter of FACT that the UK and US have killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people through the sanctions that they forced through the UN and would not let anyone break (apart from Jordan who are good friends of the US).

Never mind the Iraq war that followed, Blair and Bush personally saw to it that Iraqi people were starved of food, medical treatment and basic human rights. Meanwhile they conspired to get oil out of Iraq through other means (this is a matter of public record, as minuted in the US Congress) because it suited the Americans to break the US/UK sanctions to help their friends.

I hope that Alex McLeish, Craig Levein et al. can sleep at nights. They are a disgrace to their profession and a disgrace to Scotland.

- Supporting state sponsored terrorism?
- Supporting the murder of men, woman and children?
- Supporting an illegal war in Iraq?

Not in my name, you pathetic muppets!

VOTE FOR WHOM YOU LIKE BUT PLEASE DO NOT VOTE FOR A MURDERER AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT HIM!
!

67

Dod fae Orkney,

North Sea 24/04/2007 06:13:52

#69 Well said Buck.

68

John Sutherland,

Edinburgh 24/04/2007 07:39:19

The list of football stars supporting the Union seems to include a number of former Celtic players, but I don't believe that you will ever get the Celtic fans to support the Union, especially given the history of sectarianism amongst Old Firm fans. That part of the Story therefore smacks at yet another failed attempt by the media to tackle the sectarian problem in Glasgow.

As Sir Tom Farmer is the owner of Hibs, his support for independence might also imply that Hibs as a club, officially support an independent Scotland. That is something which I would be proud of as a Hibs fan. However although I too support independence, I think that Sir Tom Farmer should be concerning himself more with investing more money in new players at Easter Road, than worrying about whether or not Scotland will be independent. Perhaps though, he is just waiting for Scotland to become independent so that he can then use some of financial rewards which result from that, for injecting more money into Hibs for new players.

In spite of all of this however, it is the people of Scotland who will decide whether or not Scotland becames independent, and NOT specifically the big names in business and football such as Alex McLeish who was probably brainwashed by the sectarian chants of the Rangers fans during his time at Ibrox, anyway. Hopefully, the people of Scotland will make the right choice on May 3, by electing parties (such as the SNP) which WILL deliver independence for Scotland and complete freedrom from Westminster English rule.

69

John S,

24/04/2007 08:59:31

#69 - Tony - Do'nt blame me for the Iraq war it was the advice I was given.

70

Sabremesh,

24/04/2007 09:13:46

Robbie,

New Zealand's independent status is a not a good analogy for Scotland, as no EU country is truly sovereign because EU law and the ECJ are binding on Member States. Scotland would have to secede from the EU as well the UK if true independence is the objective.

The only problem I have with Scotland seceding from the Union is that the process could be very ugly indeed. A divorce which starts of as amicable quickly turns nasty when it comes to dividing up the money - this would be the most expensive and probably acrimonious divorce in history. Scots, English, Welsh and myriad of other nationalities live on this island in relative harmony - why do you resurrect Hadrian's Wall? It will only serve to balkanize this island.

Oder - you overstimate Scotland's share of UK GDP (actually only around 8-9%). This means that whereas an independent Scotland would rank 37th in global terms, the rest of the UK (or indeed England on its own) would only slip one place to 6th (behind France and ahead of Italy). The impact for Scotland would therefore be far more traumatic than for the rest of the UK.

John Sutherland - Scotland is not "ruled" by England. Both countries elect a UK parliament, so England is just much ruled by Scotland. Independence will only mean that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown (probably) will be the last two Scots ever to attend a meeting of the UN Permanent Security Council, or the G8.

71

JAB,

Edinburgh 24/04/2007 09:57:52

Who should I have faith in for my country's future? some of the top businessmen in the land or a bunch of overpaid footballers hardly noted for there intellectual prowess. No brainer really!!!

72

AJ,

Fife 24/04/2007 10:48:27

Christopher Lee has come out in support of Adam Lyall's witchery ghostie ghoulie party!!

C'mon the ghosties!!

73

JuanKerr,

edimbra..... 24/04/2007 13:36:50

# 2 it was paid by a labour party supporter.

The opinions of 100 business people or 15 footballers who never left school? Kind of a no brainer!!!!!

74

JuanKerr,

edimbra..... 24/04/2007 13:41:57

Why are you putting adverts in papers on behalf of parties? This is not America and your meddling is un called for. Should I form a class action boycotting your products? As you seem to think it is OK to do so in a political arena?

Just sent to the company involved.

Probably some grace and favour monkeys trying influence Dr Reid to lock up a neighbour for "Terror related activities!"

Well we now know were they can stick their bars and grills!

75

oder,

Scotland 24/04/2007 13:55:13

*Sabremesh
The impact for Scotland would therefore be far more traumatic than for the rest of the UK.
not really we have no industry to speak of, Scotland today is a agricutural country apart from whisky some oil a dying fishing industry, and a few other bits and bobs Scotland has come full circle from an industry lead economy back to agriculture so 37 th is`nt bad for Scotland,then the people of Scotland can decide if her soldiers should fight in far off places
or to have WMD in there land. England would be behind the French that will have a far greater impact
Scotland has previous fist hand Knowedge of trauma
the Thatcher goverment shut down all the industries in Scotland.Even Cameron said he would not lower the tax for Scotland because that would be unfair to England so England first for Cameron! thats fine
he`s English so Scotland first for Scots.

The only problem I have with Scotland seceding from the Union is that the process could be very ugly indeed. A divorce which starts of as amicable quickly turns nasty when it comes to dividing up the money

Well we Scots have always be branded mean (a name giving to us by the English)if they are fair about it about it 8/9% of all assets across the board should solve the problem the only people likey to disagree here are the English, so if its not amicable
who would you blame?

why do you resurrect Hadrian's Wall? It will only serve to balkanize this island.

No plans are a foot to raise Hadrian`wall, layout minefields machine gun posts, border controls or English keep out signs.
Balkanize this island pure fantasy.

76

Yeahbutnobut,

Aberdeen 24/04/2007 22:26:22

Walter Smith, Rangers and Craig Levein, ex-Hearts are no surprise as unionists but,

Tommy Gemmell
Billy McNeill
Bobby Lennox
Bertie Auld
Roy Aitken

from Celtic?

Staunch Unionists all of them from the advert. It must have been the Soldier's Song in Union Jack underpants and crossed fingers for all these years.


 

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