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Independence referendum: Alexander challenges Salmond to bring vote forward



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SCOTTISH Labour leader Wendy Alexander today challenged Alex Salmond to bring forward his planned referendum when he announces his legislative programme next week.
She laid down the challenge at First Minister's Questions where she faced mockery from Mr Salmond over her public demands for an early referendum.

"The First Minister is the problem when it comes to resolving this issue in the nation's interest,"
she said.

"The First Minister has a statement next week on his programme for government.

"The question is simply – will he bring forward a referendum Bill in next year's legislative programme next week?"

Mr Salmond shot back: "The answer is, we'll stick to what was laid out in the SNP manifesto on page eight and 15.

"While I would not say Wendy Alexander is the only problem the Labour party has, I think quite convincingly after the last few days that she is not the answer."

The clashes at First Minister's Questions began with Mr Salmond inviting Ms Alexander "to coin a phrase, bring it on" – a reference to a TV interview last Sunday in which she called for an early referendum.

She told MSPs: "The First Minister has been a Nationalist all his political life.

"I'm giving him the opportunity to resolve the issue.

"Why won't he take it?"

Mr Salmond acknowledged the "progress" that Labour leader had made over the last week.

"She now accepts the right of this Parliament to decide the future in terms of a constitutional referendum put to the people of Scotland," he said.

He told MSPs that Labour backbencher Duncan McNeil had said Labour would not vote down any referendum Bill that came to the Parliament.

"When we bring forward that Bill, knowing that the Labour Party will support it, as stated in our manifesto in 2010, we will expect the support of every Labour member in this Parliament," said the First Minister.

"Given the progress that Wendy Alexander has made in the last few days, who knows what side she'll be campaigning on?"



The full article contains 344 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

kirk 1,

08/05/2008 15:14:41
Even more interesting was the huge swipes aimed at Wendy by the Lib/Tory leaders.
Not a very united unionist opposition.
2

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 08/05/2008 15:19:56
I hope Mr Salmond refuses to budge on this one. Scotland will get it's independance but the SNP government still need time to prove their worth and convince a few more undecided. Tantrums like this from miss fancy pants will only strengthen the case. Even her own traitor of a boss is laughing at her.
3

Brian M,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 15:24:50
It will soon be the end of another week in politics.

Another week of wee U-bendy displaying what an @rse she is
4

puskas,

East kilbride 08/05/2008 15:28:48
Wendy destroyed by all......

First Minister Alex Salmond, first class performance .

A man against eejits.... What a leader and winner..


Scotland and independence will follow in time ...
5

Rasco,

Inverness 08/05/2008 15:37:04
How can the Tory and lib have anything to do with Wendy and Calman now,just imagine that woman being 1st Minister its scary.
6

European Scot,

08/05/2008 15:37:55
4 The Spook in Leith

Spook, I'm beginning to think we're not 10 or 12 years away from Independence, more like 5.
New Labour are disintegrating, can't help wondering if someone will pick up on this golden opportunity to form a truly Scottish Labour party, and supporting Independence. Think of the votes they'd pick up.
7

AJ Fife,

08/05/2008 15:44:43
It's good to be a Nationalist!:)

What next for wee wendy? Having someone as laughable as Nicol Stephen sneering at you, must be the last straw!
8

Lovepan,

North East England 08/05/2008 15:45:54
I have no comment except to say that I think Mr Salmond looks a bit like a frog. Or a fish.

I'm surprised there's not more about that in the news.

Toodle-oo
9

European Scot,

08/05/2008 15:50:25
9 Lovepan

No, Mr Salmond's the one on the left.
10

Lovepan,

North East England 08/05/2008 15:53:43
#8 AJ
I'm neutral on the independence thing (but would be sad to see Scotland go) but would like to say this:

Nationalism, while it feels good, is something you need to be careful about. For an interesting analysis into it, read:

Susan Shirk, "China: Fragile Superpower"

She describes how the Chinese gov. is held to ransom by the people if they do not portray themselves as the ultimate nationalists.

While the Scots are nowhere near as bad as the Chinese, with nationalism comes a mindset of 'us' against 'them'. It's a pitfall a few in the SNP have fallen into.

Just a thought - but I'd recommend the book
11

Nat for life,

Middle East 08/05/2008 15:58:57
Lovepan, 9

The great thing is that a quick kiss, and he transforms into a handsome prince.

Of course, if you are not ready to come over, you can always kiss his rear......

Seriously, because Alex and his friends have only one agenda, Scotland, they act and speak with one voice. SLAB have so many agendas they have forgotten what they originally stood for.

12

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit, Scotland 08/05/2008 15:59:54
Independence is now a certainty and it will not be long coming. But Alex Salmond is right to stick to the manifesto committment of 2010. It gives the SNP time to build on its steady progress and also shows a patient and honest party that keeps its promises - as written down and served to the electorate - unlike Gordon Brown's Labour party that promised us a referendum on the EU constitution in its manifesto and then stole it from us.
13

Lovepan,

North East England 08/05/2008 15:59:57
#10 - you're right, Wendy does look a bit like a frog. I still think Mr S looks like a fish. I think it's the neck/chin.
14

puskas,

East kilbride 08/05/2008 16:05:24
Well Lovepan can I say looks really are not important.

Its how you perform.
15

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 08/05/2008 16:08:11
Re Lovepan (#11) : the SNP stands for independence but, by its ideology, isn't a nationalist party. That's just a casual description people use.
16

interstellarmince,

outer-space 08/05/2008 16:13:52
# Rasco, Inverness

U-Bend as FM... Crickey! I actually, just for a moment… went there... it was like a parallel universe, like the one in back to the future two...

only more sh!te and stinky as well…
17

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 16:15:11
Mikko (13): "But Alex Salmond is right to stick to the manifesto committment of 2010."

Possibly. Unfortunately, refusing Alexander's suggestion of a referendum within one year is not problem-free, since the emotive slogan "It's Time!" then becomes ammunition for the SNP's opponents. You can imagine the satirists: "It's Time -- almost!", "It's Not Time, but soon will be!", etc. In this sense, Alexander's punt becomes rational: either the SNP bring the referendum forwards, which is clearly not to their advantage (for otherwise they would be welcoming the suggestion with open arms), or they refuse, citing their manifesto, leading to the problem above. It's a somewhat desperate gambit, but then the Labour party is in a somewhat desperate situation.
18

interstellarmince,

outer-space 08/05/2008 16:17:17
# Lovepan, North East England

"Nationalism, while it feels good, is something you need to be careful about".

Unless, off-course, it applies to 'Blighty'.

You'll be signing up for Europe and the Euro then?
19

Jimmy the Pie,

08/05/2008 16:20:19
Is AM2 on a life support machine?
20

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 16:20:31
Colin Wilson (16): "the SNP stands for independence but, by its ideology, isn't a nationalist party. That's just a casual description people use."

Perhaps you should suggest they change the name to "Scottish National (not Nationalist) Party"!
21

European Scot,

08/05/2008 16:20:42
11 Lovepan

"While the Scots are nowhere near as bad as the Chinese, with nationalism comes a mindset of 'us' against 'them'. It's a pitfall a few in the SNP have fallen into. "

I think you need to address your comments to all those countries in the World that have achieved their Independence over the years.
Scotland is no different in following the examples set by that vast majority of countries in the Free World that have done so.
China is not part of the Free World.
Your point about Scotland going is understandable, but it will actually remain a close ally and friend of England post Independence. There are too many personal ties on both sides for it to be anything else.
The Union is actually getting in the way of the two countries becoming closer.
The Salmon-d is the King of fish, and needs clean, crystal clear water to survive !
Muddy Waters is Labour territory. ( and possibly an Amrican Blues singer )
22

Media 1,

cape town 08/05/2008 16:21:08
Fairfax is correct.

"It's Time" that slogan means exactly what it says, so there can be no stalling. The papers will have a field day with this if he stalls, can you imagine? They will take the p1ss out of the SNP over that slogan.

Clever move by labour. I dont like Labour or Wendy Alexander, but I would sooner they were in control than the freedom fighting crew.......It's time indeed

23

European Scot,

08/05/2008 16:22:26
Oops American !
24

Jimmy the Pie,

08/05/2008 16:24:51

Media 1 cape town

Should you not be concerning yourself with Joseph Zuma and his tribe when they take over their own country??
25

Miss H,

08/05/2008 16:25:32
18 If you can go out and find 100 people who think that now is the right time to hold a referendum I would be very surprised. There has been an almost complete resistance to a debate about independence or participation in the national conversation from the unionists, led by the Labour Party which up until last week were implacably opposed to the very idea of a referendum.

If they think it is clever political tactics to do a complete u-turn they are mistaken because voters will see it as a tactic not a commitment to trust the people of Scotland to decide their own future.

There is the added complication that the SNP is also committed to a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Although that may not happen - there are probably limits to how many referendums you can have in one term of office.

26

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 08/05/2008 16:26:24
Re Fairfax (#21) : "Perhaps you should suggest they change the name to "Scottish National (not Nationalist) Party"! "

Fairfax's suggestion is the party's name already.
27

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit, Scotland 08/05/2008 16:28:18
Fairfax #18,

You do of course have a point but I think the SNP is in a win win situation if they stick to their manifesto's promised timetable on a referendum. Under Brown, and now under Bendy Wendy as well, Labour have been shown to have no principles and no capability of keeping any of their numerous promises.
28

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 16:29:02
European Scot (22): "but it will actually remain a close ally and friend of England post Independence. There are too many personal ties on both sides for it to be anything else."

I hope England and Scotland will remain close allies and friends, but it's hardly automatic. The argument of strong personal ties implying necessary alliance is not justified historically. For example, Sweden did nothing to help Norway during Germany's invasion in 1940, despite Norway's independence occurring within living memory, and despite many personal ties.
29

acanthus,

08/05/2008 16:29:27
23:

Media 1:

Be making the statement that you would prefer Wendy and Labour in power than the SNP at the moment shows that you are one of those 'walking dead' who at some point recieved a labotomy!

Funny but i don't see any media running to mock Salmond fo sticking to his agenda, who has been made a fool of in the last two days..oh yes the liar and corrupt Wendy you would like to see in power!
30

Media 1,

Cape Town 08/05/2008 16:31:13
Jimmy

Nah not really. JACOB Zuma you mean!
This isnt his country, remember he is a Zulu. Like the rest of the tribes in SA they arrived from the north just like the Europeans did, except not with as much knowledge or modernity.
The Zulu's arrived and destroyed the indigenous khoi san people, so when you know your history you will know that the Zulu's like the Europeans are both FOREIGN to South Africa.
It just so happened that the Europeans were cultured and modern, learned and efficient, whereas the Zulus were primitive tribal people.
Anyway, that does not concern me, I am Scottish so what happens here is of no concern to me in the end. Yes it will hurt when the wheels come off, and they will come off, they are already sufficiently loosened and the wobble has begun under the tribal people.
Lets hope Alexander gets her referendum, the SNP must now deliver, becasue either it's time or it isnt.
31

acanthus,

08/05/2008 16:32:08
29:

Yes and Sparta was pretty miffed at Athens as well. Pretty unlikely that Germany will invade Scotland and time soon don't you think?
32

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 16:33:04
I am not sure if everyone on here - including the writer of this article (and headline) saw FMQs but my experience was of UUendy being ridiculed and chastised.

Quite how the headline writer can attempt to try and turn the facts around in such few words without also being the subject of ridicule is beyond me.

Wendy was wiped again. Even those sitting behind her were laughing as Salmond destroyed her.

Oh, and Fairfax, Ello, Ello. Get back to Carstairs. The SNP is the Scottish National Party not the Scottish Nationalist Party.

Let's face it, UUendy has boobed big time and all she has done is alienate the Tories and LibDems alongside a lot of her own party.
33

Media 1,

cape town 08/05/2008 16:33:47
Acanthus

All that may be so, but in reality, the slogan says "it's time" So either it is or it isnt.
And if Labour ask for it now because its time, then they best deliver or they WILL be slagged off.
It's time! Or has that changed to It's almost time?
34

Chudleigh,

Devon 08/05/2008 16:37:07
Faced with this lot, what on earth is wrong with the Scottish Conservative Party?

They should be making mincemeat of this crowd - Scotland deserves better.
35

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 16:38:04
Media1. Could you explain to me why the SNP should alter their timetable just because UUendy has jumped onto their bandwagon?

I'm talking about the referendum timing.
36

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit, Scotland 08/05/2008 16:38:56
Media 1 #34,

"It is time" is a slogan but I am sure you know as well as I do that this is just desperate Labour posturing in the wake of electoral disaster. The reality is that we are only talking about six months difference in "bring it on" as Bendy Wendy says or Alex Salmond's principled adherence to his manifesto pledge of a properly structured referendum in 2010. That is the reality of the parliamentary timetable.
37

acanthus,

08/05/2008 16:39:08
It is time when the SNP pass the legislation in 2010 as stated in their manifesto. That's really an end to the matter as that is what will happen.

But you will be hoping by that time Wendy will have proved herself a strong and capable leader at the front of a party bristling with talent and be 20 points ahead in the polls...aye right!
38

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 16:40:10
acanthus (32): "Pretty unlikely that Germany will invade Scotland and time soon don't you think?"

Agreed: it's historical counterexample, not a prediction that Germany will found the 4th Reich. Your example of Athens and Sparta is also good, although they never had close personal ties as states. Still, who knows what the future will bring?
39

European Scot,

08/05/2008 16:40:58
23 Media 1

"It's Time" that slogan means exactly what it says, so there can be no stalling. The papers will have a field day with this if he stalls, can you imagine? "

When as a Party you set an agenda, you stick by it.
The SNP have set their time as 2010.
That's what we call consistency, it encourages confidence.
If Wendy wants to change another party's agenda, that's too bad.
The SNP are proving to be a far superior outfit to anything on the Unionist side.
It must rankle, but it just happens to be true.
The Labour Party are a shambles.
Tories or Liberals as an alternative in Scotland ?
I doubt if even you would give that serious consideration.
The SNP north of the border, is the only realistic choice.
You're just going to have to live with it !
40

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 08/05/2008 16:40:59
I see someone compared Alex to a frog turning into a prince when kissed.

Poor Wendy when kissed has just turned into an uglier toad.
41

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit, Scotland 08/05/2008 16:43:20
AM2 #35

Well, in answer to your question it comes down to trends. The trend in the polls is, over time, moving well towards independence. We have a useless Westminster government that seems very unlikely to manage anything more than yet another crisis and implosion. So as long as the SNP manages to keep an even keel between now and 2010 people will inevitably vote for jumping into the SNP lifeboats instead of just going down with Brown's Titanic.
42

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 16:43:23
40, Fairfax. The 4th Reich is the EU.
43

acanthus,

08/05/2008 16:45:27
AM2,

I think you better check your figures, the polls are (and have) for some time stood at netween 34% and 44%. Everyone understands these figures are more or less accurate and all the Unionist know it.

The figures will continue to increase, even Wendy understands that. That is why she acted in this laughable manner.

Explain exactly why it is that the other two unionist parties do NOT want a referendum? Or does the Labour party now stand and speak for all Unionists?
44

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 16:48:47
European Scot (41): "When as a Party you set an agenda, you stick by it."

Sadly conforming to the party manifesto is neither necessary nor sufficient in politics. Alexander is certainly desperate, but, as I pointed out above, this is a rational gamble: its refusal by the SNP allows the emotive slogan "It's Time!" to be become the stuff of satire.
45

Media 1,

cape town 08/05/2008 16:52:37
I am NOT saying that the SNP should just jump because Wendy said they should. I am picking up on what Fairfax said by exclaiming that the press will have a field day with this "it's time"
Thats all I am saying, and the press can hurt a political figure if they want.
46

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 16:54:11
#48 AM2

Poll in England

April 2007: ICM. Independence 68%

47

acanthus,

08/05/2008 16:58:17
48:

Rather selective piece of chrry picking the polls don't you think?
Try these:

51 15 -17
YouGov/Channel 4 (1) 08/01/07 40

TNS System Three/Herald (1) 04/04/08 41

TNS System Three/Herald (1) 01/12/07 40

48

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 17:05:08
47, Fairfax & 49, Media1. I doubt very much if a lot of point scoring can be made on the "It's Time" slogan.

I think the reality is that UUendy has done a lot of damage to herself and Broon and you lot trying to capitalise on a couple of words which brought the SNP into power just makes you out to be as daft as UUendy.

It might have been different if the Tories and LibDems were not now anti UUendy (let alone those in her own party).

My suggestion is that you get back into the woodwork and try another ambush or just participate in the jolly good sense of fair play which is known as being in opposition.

49

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 17:05:18
#54 AM2

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1263284,00.html


I would suggest the number of English who are fed up with Scotland is now nearer 99%.
50

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 17:07:46
AM2 (53): "Erm, got a link to that, please?!"

I think he's referring to this November 2006 poll. If so, then the 68% refers to "home rule" rather than full independence

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535193/Britain-wants-UK-break-up,-poll-shows.html

Of course I strongly approve of such polls, but the Telegraph does not seem to provide any statistical details.
51

Phil o Brian,

08/05/2008 17:08:23
Dear God. lets get this over with. Do we really need another 2 years of all this chatter and meaningless arguement? Does not sound like either labour or the SNP are confident of winning a referendum.
52

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 17:12:12
#59 Fairfax

Yes you are right Fairfax. Only 56% said independence while 68% said home rule. In the case of England ruled by Brown the clown and Darling etc they amount to the same thing.

And of course that was over a year ago. Like I said the number of English wanting independence for Scotland and themselves, maybe with a union with just Wales, would be far higher now.

53

acanthus,

08/05/2008 17:12:40
56 AM2,

Yes we can both cherry pick if we want and copy and paste figures until blue in the face, it makes little difference to the debate and what is happening to the country really does it!

But as you seem so keen on it and have all the figures to hand why then make the statement:

'those which don't offer people the choice of the full range of options but instead force them to make an unrealistic choice, are all over the place'

Why bother posting the polls then?





54

European Scot,

08/05/2008 17:12:54
29 Fairfax

" I hope England and Scotland will remain close allies and friends, but it's hardly automatic. The argument of strong personal ties implying necessary alliance is not justified historically. For example, Sweden did nothing to help Norway during Germany's invasion in 1940....

It's interesting to look back, and it's certainly a Unionist favourite to do so. ( Not that I'm suggesting you are Fairfax ) but let's remain in the context of today.
In the EU, where I would like to see England, and Scotland sitting, and both using the strong and stable Euro, it would be difficult to imagine a last World War scenario.
We have moved on, and we need to keep going forward.
An Independent Scotland seems to be attracting every single flavour of doomsday imagining, yet it is just another country seeking its Independence.
Did all these prophecies of doom apply to any of the other hundreds of countries who gained their Independence in the past ?
Please, let's be more realistic about Scotland.
A population of 5 million, with oil, whisky, agriculture, fishing, banking, insurance, tourism, and natural resources,
The basis for a very comfortable economy.
Do you really think it would have problems settling in with its neighbour ?

47 Fairfax

"Sadly conforming to the party manifesto is neither necessary nor sufficient in politics. Alexander is certainly desperate, but, as I pointed out above, this is a rational gamble: its refusal by the SNP allows the emotive slogan "It's Time!" to be become the stuff of satire."

No, it's time to become the stuff of Saltire !
55

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 17:14:24
#61 Fairfax


Of course you are right again. I will still travel to Scotland and enjoy the majestic scenery after it becomes independent. Thankfully, unlike now, the only time I will have to pay for it is when I go there.
56

acanthus,

08/05/2008 17:14:41
We know how inportant the wording of the question is and choices ..bore bore bore, yes yes yes..and i am sure the SNP are aware of it!
57

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 17:15:35
Jock Tamson (57): "I doubt very much if a lot of point scoring can be made on the "It's Time" slogan."

Perhaps you're correct. However, I strongly suspect it will generate lots of humorous digs at the SNP, particularly from Labour. It has the great advantage that it's really quite funny.

"My suggestion is that you get back into the woodwork and try another ambush"

No ambush intended (at least by me): I'm an English nationalist who supports the Conservatives at present -- I want Scotland to secede. However, even I, much as I despise Labour, must concede that this is a good, if desperate gamble.
58

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 17:18:00
Has no one ever considered that it is the unionists who are constantly dominating our time with the referendum issue?

Perhaps this is why the perceived uncertainty over Scotland that they carp on about is manifest.

My impression was that the SNP were concentrating on running the country and were intending to try to introduce the referendum bill at a later date.

Can we understand from this that UUendy is attempting to prevent the SNP from building upon the Labour foundation for a successful Scotland?

That was me being polite.
59

acanthus,

08/05/2008 17:18:40
68 Faorfax:

'I strongly suspect it will generate lots of humorous digs at the SNP'

I strongly suspect that the SNP will generate a few more digs at the Labour Party with regard to this whole affair, right up to the day before the referendum.
60

Alan B,

08/05/2008 17:21:05
We do not really know how the polls will translate to an actually referendum. John Curtis the electral expert (Stratclyde uni) was on tv the other week saying that opinion polls on the single question of independence showed a roughly even split between those for and those against.

There are alot of unknowns assuming the referendum is autumn 2010.
1)will the calman commission be a damp squib. opinion polls show the most popular option is more powers. some on this site want fiscal autonomy. i cannot see calman coming anywhere close. which way will the dev max brigade jump if dev max is not an option.
2)what will the effect of a tory victory be. labour will be arguing that a possible 12yrs of tory rule under cameron is a price worth paying for the union. this will be made worse if the tories only have a couple of mps.

Given that labour do not want calman put to a referendum and the other unionist parties did not either. Will calman be implemented before a referendum.

Lets say calman comes up with some sort of fiscal federalism advocated by wendy. is scotland going to be better or worse of than before.

Unless oil money comes to scotland then i cannot see any fiscal reform being positive.

If calman a commission for scotland does not recommend scotland gets some of the oil money it is going to look quite stupid.

If salmond welcomes calman as a step forward, and all the unionist parties are signed up, why would they wait for over a yr to implement it.

Unless the snp make big mistakes, the bad publicity brown is going to get as he holds on to the bitter end will mean soaring popularity for the snp.

The lib dems are going to be in the position if calman does not report significant powers, then they will have to either reject it as in adaquate or tell us how great it is despite there position being layed out by the steel commission.

Personally i think the way things are going brown will probably be out before the next election. He is blundering f
61

kimba,

08/05/2008 17:22:20
Salmond is a coward, he knows full well he doesn't stand a chance, but all is not lost,westminster can call one of their own,asking the scottish people if they want to remain part of the union.
62

Alan B,

08/05/2008 17:22:23
sorry meant to say: John Curtis the electral expert (Stratclyde uni) was on tv the other week saying that opinion polls on the single question of independence showed a roughly even split between those for and those against for the last 9yrs.
63

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 17:24:12
European Scot (64): "We have moved on, and we need to keep going forward."

I hope so, but am more pessimistic. In the years leading up to WWI, the strong economic and cultural links between western European nations were often cited as arguments that war was unlikely. I would suggest that humanity never really moves on, in the sense that there will always be disputes and war. Given that the world's population is now large, and claims on resources are increasing, and given that the USA, our hegemon for the past century or so, is beginning to creak somewhat, I would suggest guarded pessimism, rather than optimism, should be the order of the day.

"An Independent Scotland seems to be attracting every single flavour of doomsday imagining"

That's correct, but doomsday scenarios are a large part of current fiction. In a sense, this might be an unusual compliment: doomsday fiction implies that there is something to which disaster can occur.
64

mike3,

Midlands 08/05/2008 17:26:02
More panic from Scots Lab? What a mess they've made over the last many years.
65

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:26:57
75. AM2

I suggest you check how many bills the SNP have delivered. They passed a bill to abolish road tolls. They passed a bill to abolish the graduate endowment.

Please acknowledge your error and withdraw your totally inaccurate "SNP pass one bill" post.

66

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 17:28:10
68, Fairfax. Labour don't have a sense of humour. They may try satire but it will backfire on them as they have no credibility anymore, apart from those unionist worshipers who come on here and try to find excuses to twist the media spin. Ever decreasing circles.

Good luck with the English Nat Party - now there's an idea.
67

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:28:40
69. AS the SNp and Labour, with 93 MSPs and a majority, favour a straight yes/ no referendum, what is the relevance of yoru straw cluthcing "multi-option poll"

And as Labour now favour a referendum before the Calman commission reports, what relevance is there in your posts about a "multi-option" poll?

68

Truely English,

08/05/2008 17:29:25
Why are the Labour Party putting our people to the test regarding a referendum and so quickly. Surely it is clear that our common language, heritage and traditions are important to them.

Queen Margaret of Scotland helped to forge our two peoples into one many centuries ago and now the political parties are trying to make undo this important work.

Long live our Queen and the many parts of the state who promote Britain as one entity.
69

Alan B,

08/05/2008 17:29:51
#AM2

Wendy has ruled out a multi option referendum so the multi option opinion polls are less relevant.

Also it is understand the true meaning of polls when the most favoured option want more powers. What powers?
The media portrayed this as dev max but none of the parties want this the lib dems are closest.

Will calman really come up with dev max? i doubt it.

Many on this site argue for fiscal autonomy and although clearly not representative of the population which way would they go if that option was not on the table.

I find myself while wanting independence as the end goal would like to move to more power option first. Namely fiscal autonomy. Controlling our own taxes and spending is a hugh change and would give us tools to address economic issues. it would also put an end to squabbling over money and the deficits labour would dream up.

That would leave currency, foreign policy, defence and eu membership as the pulled powers. A much cleaner and easier jump and argument to make.
70

acanthus,

08/05/2008 17:31:13
75 AM2,

'The SNP promised five bills in its first 100 days, including bills on criminal justice and student debt'

Yip you are right, that is just why the SNP are doing so poorly in the polls, it's the talk of the nation!

However, what the SNP are not doing is ruining the Economy. My pal down south tells my that in his paper in Lemainigton Spa there is already an increase in house auctions?

I think theses are slighty more important issues don't you?
71

Richardinho,

08/05/2008 17:33:59
An interesting result from this week is that it shows just how beholden to her Westminster masters the Holyrood Labour leader is.

Whilst Alex Salmond is the chief of all he surveys in his party, Wendy within the Labour party is at best a very minor figure.

This is one of the reasons, regardless of the outcome of a referendum, I can see the SNP being a powerful force at Holyrood for the forseeable future-the Scottish people want a Scottish parliament that will stand up for Scotland, not be controlled from Westminster.
72

Alan B,

08/05/2008 17:35:54
#77 AM2

Before the election last yr i remember polls showing the most favoured choice as being independence. (that was before all this multiple options questions).

After the snp got elected support for independence dipped. Only the latest polls show it has recovered to pre-election levels. Why? i do not know. Would just be guessing.

(I am not really big on following opinion polls more interested in economic policy and its implications.)

The biggest question in a referendum could be turnout. Scottish elections get somewhere between 50-60% turnout. Council elections what about 30%? What would a referendum expect?

A good turnout would probably be 50%. The outcome of a refendum could come down to which side is more motivated.
73

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 17:36:16
75, AMtwa.

Do you not think they are concentrating on running the country? Out of the whole post you reply with one statistic which is largely irrelevant to the post.

Now, do you not think that it is UUendy and her antics which is causing the referendum to dominate the political headlines in Scotland while the SNP has concentrated on running the country with a minority government?
74

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:38:34
86. AM2

which party wants a multi-option poll? And what is this mysterious 3rd option that you quote people want in these polls? Can you give me a few details on what they were endorsing? And can you tell me which parties propose waiting for the Calman commission to tell us what might be included?

The SNP wanted a yes/ no vote. Labour want a yes/no vote. So now there is a clear parliamentary majority for this, I am sure you back such an idea?

75

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:40:11
86. Is not "what people really want" better decided in a referendum rather by opinion polls which quote support for an option which is not defined?
76

brownlie,

08/05/2008 17:41:19
77 AM2

Hello, Highland

Not a good move from us to quote Alex Salmond as gospel when we consistently accuse him of misleading people. How clever of you to change your usual quote of 25% as Highland to a quarter as AM2. We unionists can be devious when we want to protect our identity.
77

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:41:34
90. Wendy said she wanted a straight yes/ no "bring it on" referendum..... distressing as the total dissarray of unionism is for you, please keep abreast of current events.

78

acanthus,

08/05/2008 17:43:22
AM2

Just take this figure and see if you can see just how silly is it:

Independence: 22%

This would mean that only 22% of the population are core SNP supporters who believe in independence? Also that 78% are against independence?

Really? You think this is accurate?
79

Richardinho,

08/05/2008 17:44:17
Just in case anyone missed it;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7390204.stm

A great Holyrood parliamentary occasion, I think we can all agree.
80

Alan B,

08/05/2008 17:44:22
#90 AM2

Are u saying she has not ruled out a multi option referendum?

My only source of info is what i see on the tv and read in the papers.

From what she said she wanted a single question referendum. This is the first choice of the snp, who were willing to add a more power option.

She also said on the tv interview i saw , that she wanted the referendum before the calman commission reports. As such there would be no 3rd question.

If u are saying my semantics are wrong, ie i should have siad she wants a single question referendum. rather than specifically ruling out a 3rd question i stand corrected.

81

Brian M,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 17:45:14
I doubt that U-Bendy really knows what she really wants - first of all she was set against a referendum, then she was for a 'commission' to move on from current devolution with possible give and take between Scotland and Westminster as regards powers but no option of independence, now she is suddenly all for a referendum on independence with a simple yes/no question.

Alex should thank U-Bendy for her last wish and put that simple question in the referendum he pledged for 2010/2011 - that's if the parliament pass the bill
82

acanthus,

08/05/2008 17:45:31
Maybe in the Unionists dreams it is real...that would mean that nearly half of the SNP vote does not want independence..haha..right!
83

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:46:45
90. AM2

what are your real thoughts and reaction to the fact that the largest Unionist party now prefers to conduct the defense of the Union according to the international rule book of the contortionist society rather than by reference to fact?

Do you think Gordon Brown told a lie when he said that Wendy did not ask for a referendum?
84

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:50:32
101. And with a whiff of sulphur, the clicking of his red (white and blue) shoes and a burst of God Save the Queen, he is gone... pity, he never did explain what the 3rd option was that people supported in his polls or who proposes such a referendum...
85

Daily user,

Queensferry A.K.A. The FETA (mismanaged) Car Park 08/05/2008 17:51:05
Quote by Rt. Hon Jack McConnell MSP.

PHEW !!!! .....that was close !
86

European Scot,

08/05/2008 17:53:59
76 Fairfax

Fairfax, you ought to slide over to the Independence side a little more, you'll find your pessimism is replaced with a real spirit of optimism.
One side is looking oh so good, and the opposition, just couldn't be doing worse.
Cast your eyes over most of the Unionist posts on here
Doom and gloom merchants, with their, only the Union is worthwhile, only the Union is safe. Yes of course.
Then look at the multi, loaded question polls, and the percentages of same, quoted ad nauseam.
Now look at Wendy and Gordon's behaviour. If those Independence polls, and their percentages, in any way reflected the true position, neither of these politicians would be in such a panic, or in such a mess.
They would be quietly confident, but they're not, clearly not.
The real percentages at this moment, are probably far too close to call.
Brown doesn't want to jump, Wendy does.
Alex stays on course.
2010 will actually give us the truth.
Try a little optimism ! It's good for you !
87

brownlie,

08/05/2008 17:58:59
101 AM2

Highland and I know that a quarter is generally regarded as 25%. Highland also sometimes begins a sentence when he wants to bring attention to something with "Erm," so, co-incidentally do you as in 53 above "Erm, got a link...."

Is it our policy to believe Salmond when he claims that in his manifesto he promised a referendum in 2010 and intends to stick to that?
88

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 08/05/2008 18:08:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYgjHlYzZVY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKGlxlfL8MI
89

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 18:11:48
107. Calomine lotion?
90

James.com,

Clifton 08/05/2008 18:15:37
Independence may be better or worse in economic terms but that is irrelevant. You would never forgive yourselves (or be forgiven by future generations) if you did not try. The non-economic benefits of pride, sense of purpose and freedom will be huge. Do we really feel so much better for all the so-called economic growth of the last 30 years? I suspect that Salmond does not expect to win in 2010 but after proving that the SMP are more competent than Labour (how difficult is that?!), replacing labour MPs at Westminster and reaching the limits of devolution/concessions then there will be a very good chance of success. The Tories in England will probably go along with this because of recent experience of Scottish Labour MPs in England and the prospect of a Socialist-free south. Just a thought - if a devolved Scotland moves to the left of a Tory England there will be a movement of social security migrants, ie. asylum camps at Carlisle not Calais, which will further repel Scotland to independence in order to control its boarders.
91

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 18:22:23
Oh, diddums, did AMtwa no get his ball back?
92

acanthus,

08/05/2008 18:29:36
Latest system 3 poll:

Yes: I agress that people who constantly quote opinion polls are a pain in the a**e: 75%

No: 1%

Status Quo: 127% (this figure varies depending on the wording of the question from between 1 -127%)

T