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Independence referendum: Alexander challenges Salmond to bring vote forward

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Published Date: 08 May 2008
SCOTTISH Labour leader Wendy Alexander today challenged Alex Salmond to bring forward his planned referendum when he announces his legislative programme next week.
She laid down the challenge at First Minister's Questions where she faced mockery from Mr Salmond over her public demands for an early referendum.

"The First Minister is the problem when it comes to resolving this issue in the nation's interest,"
she said.

"The First Minister has a statement next week on his programme for government.

"The question is simply – will he bring forward a referendum Bill in next year's legislative programme next week?"

Mr Salmond shot back: "The answer is, we'll stick to what was laid out in the SNP manifesto on page eight and 15.

"While I would not say Wendy Alexander is the only problem the Labour party has, I think quite convincingly after the last few days that she is not the answer."

The clashes at First Minister's Questions began with Mr Salmond inviting Ms Alexander "to coin a phrase, bring it on" – a reference to a TV interview last Sunday in which she called for an early referendum.

She told MSPs: "The First Minister has been a Nationalist all his political life.

"I'm giving him the opportunity to resolve the issue.

"Why won't he take it?"

Mr Salmond acknowledged the "progress" that Labour leader had made over the last week.

"She now accepts the right of this Parliament to decide the future in terms of a constitutional referendum put to the people of Scotland," he said.

He told MSPs that Labour backbencher Duncan McNeil had said Labour would not vote down any referendum Bill that came to the Parliament.

"When we bring forward that Bill, knowing that the Labour Party will support it, as stated in our manifesto in 2010, we will expect the support of every Labour member in this Parliament," said the First Minister.

"Given the progress that Wendy Alexander has made in the last few days, who knows what side she'll be campaigning on?"



The full article contains 344 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

kirk 1,

08/05/2008 15:14:41
Even more interesting was the huge swipes aimed at Wendy by the Lib/Tory leaders.
Not a very united unionist opposition.
2

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 08/05/2008 15:19:56
I hope Mr Salmond refuses to budge on this one. Scotland will get it's independance but the SNP government still need time to prove their worth and convince a few more undecided. Tantrums like this from miss fancy pants will only strengthen the case. Even her own traitor of a boss is laughing at her.
3

Brian M,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 15:24:50
It will soon be the end of another week in politics.

Another week of wee U-bendy displaying what an @rse she is
4

puskas,

East kilbride 08/05/2008 15:28:48
Wendy destroyed by all......

First Minister Alex Salmond, first class performance .

A man against eejits.... What a leader and winner..


Scotland and independence will follow in time ...
5

Rasco,

Inverness 08/05/2008 15:37:04
How can the Tory and lib have anything to do with Wendy and Calman now,just imagine that woman being 1st Minister its scary.
6

European Scot,

08/05/2008 15:37:55
4 The Spook in Leith

Spook, I'm beginning to think we're not 10 or 12 years away from Independence, more like 5.
New Labour are disintegrating, can't help wondering if someone will pick up on this golden opportunity to form a truly Scottish Labour party, and supporting Independence. Think of the votes they'd pick up.
7

AJ Fife,

08/05/2008 15:44:43
It's good to be a Nationalist!:)

What next for wee wendy? Having someone as laughable as Nicol Stephen sneering at you, must be the last straw!
8

Lovepan,

North East England 08/05/2008 15:45:54
I have no comment except to say that I think Mr Salmond looks a bit like a frog. Or a fish.

I'm surprised there's not more about that in the news.

Toodle-oo
9

European Scot,

08/05/2008 15:50:25
9 Lovepan

No, Mr Salmond's the one on the left.
10

Lovepan,

North East England 08/05/2008 15:53:43
#8 AJ
I'm neutral on the independence thing (but would be sad to see Scotland go) but would like to say this:

Nationalism, while it feels good, is something you need to be careful about. For an interesting analysis into it, read:

Susan Shirk, "China: Fragile Superpower"

She describes how the Chinese gov. is held to ransom by the people if they do not portray themselves as the ultimate nationalists.

While the Scots are nowhere near as bad as the Chinese, with nationalism comes a mindset of 'us' against 'them'. It's a pitfall a few in the SNP have fallen into.

Just a thought - but I'd recommend the book
11

Nat for life,

Middle East 08/05/2008 15:58:57
Lovepan, 9

The great thing is that a quick kiss, and he transforms into a handsome prince.

Of course, if you are not ready to come over, you can always kiss his rear......

Seriously, because Alex and his friends have only one agenda, Scotland, they act and speak with one voice. SLAB have so many agendas they have forgotten what they originally stood for.

12

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit, Scotland 08/05/2008 15:59:54
Independence is now a certainty and it will not be long coming. But Alex Salmond is right to stick to the manifesto committment of 2010. It gives the SNP time to build on its steady progress and also shows a patient and honest party that keeps its promises - as written down and served to the electorate - unlike Gordon Brown's Labour party that promised us a referendum on the EU constitution in its manifesto and then stole it from us.
13

Lovepan,

North East England 08/05/2008 15:59:57
#10 - you're right, Wendy does look a bit like a frog. I still think Mr S looks like a fish. I think it's the neck/chin.
14

puskas,

East kilbride 08/05/2008 16:05:24
Well Lovepan can I say looks really are not important.

Its how you perform.
15

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 08/05/2008 16:08:11
Re Lovepan (#11) : the SNP stands for independence but, by its ideology, isn't a nationalist party. That's just a casual description people use.
16

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 16:15:11
Mikko (13): "But Alex Salmond is right to stick to the manifesto committment of 2010."

Possibly. Unfortunately, refusing Alexander's suggestion of a referendum within one year is not problem-free, since the emotive slogan "It's Time!" then becomes ammunition for the SNP's opponents. You can imagine the satirists: "It's Time -- almost!", "It's Not Time, but soon will be!", etc. In this sense, Alexander's punt becomes rational: either the SNP bring the referendum forwards, which is clearly not to their advantage (for otherwise they would be welcoming the suggestion with open arms), or they refuse, citing their manifesto, leading to the problem above. It's a somewhat desperate gambit, but then the Labour party is in a somewhat desperate situation.
17

Jimmy the Pie,

08/05/2008 16:20:19
Is AM2 on a life support machine?
18

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 16:20:31
Colin Wilson (16): "the SNP stands for independence but, by its ideology, isn't a nationalist party. That's just a casual description people use."

Perhaps you should suggest they change the name to "Scottish National (not Nationalist) Party"!
19

European Scot,

08/05/2008 16:20:42
11 Lovepan

"While the Scots are nowhere near as bad as the Chinese, with nationalism comes a mindset of 'us' against 'them'. It's a pitfall a few in the SNP have fallen into. "

I think you need to address your comments to all those countries in the World that have achieved their Independence over the years.
Scotland is no different in following the examples set by that vast majority of countries in the Free World that have done so.
China is not part of the Free World.
Your point about Scotland going is understandable, but it will actually remain a close ally and friend of England post Independence. There are too many personal ties on both sides for it to be anything else.
The Union is actually getting in the way of the two countries becoming closer.
The Salmon-d is the King of fish, and needs clean, crystal clear water to survive !
Muddy Waters is Labour territory. ( and possibly an Amrican Blues singer )
20

Media 1,

cape town 08/05/2008 16:21:08
Fairfax is correct.

"It's Time" that slogan means exactly what it says, so there can be no stalling. The papers will have a field day with this if he stalls, can you imagine? They will take the p1ss out of the SNP over that slogan.

Clever move by labour. I dont like Labour or Wendy Alexander, but I would sooner they were in control than the freedom fighting crew.......It's time indeed

21

European Scot,

08/05/2008 16:22:26
Oops American !
22

Jimmy the Pie,

08/05/2008 16:24:51

Media 1 cape town

Should you not be concerning yourself with Joseph Zuma and his tribe when they take over their own country??
23

Miss H,

08/05/2008 16:25:32
18 If you can go out and find 100 people who think that now is the right time to hold a referendum I would be very surprised. There has been an almost complete resistance to a debate about independence or participation in the national conversation from the unionists, led by the Labour Party which up until last week were implacably opposed to the very idea of a referendum.

If they think it is clever political tactics to do a complete u-turn they are mistaken because voters will see it as a tactic not a commitment to trust the people of Scotland to decide their own future.

There is the added complication that the SNP is also committed to a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Although that may not happen - there are probably limits to how many referendums you can have in one term of office.

24

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 08/05/2008 16:26:24
Re Fairfax (#21) : "Perhaps you should suggest they change the name to "Scottish National (not Nationalist) Party"! "

Fairfax's suggestion is the party's name already.
25

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit, Scotland 08/05/2008 16:28:18
Fairfax #18,

You do of course have a point but I think the SNP is in a win win situation if they stick to their manifesto's promised timetable on a referendum. Under Brown, and now under Bendy Wendy as well, Labour have been shown to have no principles and no capability of keeping any of their numerous promises.
26

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 16:29:02
European Scot (22): "but it will actually remain a close ally and friend of England post Independence. There are too many personal ties on both sides for it to be anything else."

I hope England and Scotland will remain close allies and friends, but it's hardly automatic. The argument of strong personal ties implying necessary alliance is not justified historically. For example, Sweden did nothing to help Norway during Germany's invasion in 1940, despite Norway's independence occurring within living memory, and despite many personal ties.
27

acanthus,

08/05/2008 16:29:27
23:

Media 1:

Be making the statement that you would prefer Wendy and Labour in power than the SNP at the moment shows that you are one of those 'walking dead' who at some point recieved a labotomy!

Funny but i don't see any media running to mock Salmond fo sticking to his agenda, who has been made a fool of in the last two days..oh yes the liar and corrupt Wendy you would like to see in power!
28

Media 1,

Cape Town 08/05/2008 16:31:13
Jimmy

Nah not really. JACOB Zuma you mean!
This isnt his country, remember he is a Zulu. Like the rest of the tribes in SA they arrived from the north just like the Europeans did, except not with as much knowledge or modernity.
The Zulu's arrived and destroyed the indigenous khoi san people, so when you know your history you will know that the Zulu's like the Europeans are both FOREIGN to South Africa.
It just so happened that the Europeans were cultured and modern, learned and efficient, whereas the Zulus were primitive tribal people.
Anyway, that does not concern me, I am Scottish so what happens here is of no concern to me in the end. Yes it will hurt when the wheels come off, and they will come off, they are already sufficiently loosened and the wobble has begun under the tribal people.
Lets hope Alexander gets her referendum, the SNP must now deliver, becasue either it's time or it isnt.
29

acanthus,

08/05/2008 16:32:08
29:

Yes and Sparta was pretty miffed at Athens as well. Pretty unlikely that Germany will invade Scotland and time soon don't you think?
30

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 16:33:04
I am not sure if everyone on here - including the writer of this article (and headline) saw FMQs but my experience was of UUendy being ridiculed and chastised.

Quite how the headline writer can attempt to try and turn the facts around in such few words without also being the subject of ridicule is beyond me.

Wendy was wiped again. Even those sitting behind her were laughing as Salmond destroyed her.

Oh, and Fairfax, Ello, Ello. Get back to Carstairs. The SNP is the Scottish National Party not the Scottish Nationalist Party.

Let's face it, UUendy has boobed big time and all she has done is alienate the Tories and LibDems alongside a lot of her own party.
31

Media 1,

cape town 08/05/2008 16:33:47
Acanthus

All that may be so, but in reality, the slogan says "it's time" So either it is or it isnt.
And if Labour ask for it now because its time, then they best deliver or they WILL be slagged off.
It's time! Or has that changed to It's almost time?
32

Chudleigh,

Devon 08/05/2008 16:37:07
Faced with this lot, what on earth is wrong with the Scottish Conservative Party?

They should be making mincemeat of this crowd - Scotland deserves better.
33

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 16:38:04
Media1. Could you explain to me why the SNP should alter their timetable just because UUendy has jumped onto their bandwagon?

I'm talking about the referendum timing.
34

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit, Scotland 08/05/2008 16:38:56
Media 1 #34,

"It is time" is a slogan but I am sure you know as well as I do that this is just desperate Labour posturing in the wake of electoral disaster. The reality is that we are only talking about six months difference in "bring it on" as Bendy Wendy says or Alex Salmond's principled adherence to his manifesto pledge of a properly structured referendum in 2010. That is the reality of the parliamentary timetable.
35

acanthus,

08/05/2008 16:39:08
It is time when the SNP pass the legislation in 2010 as stated in their manifesto. That's really an end to the matter as that is what will happen.

But you will be hoping by that time Wendy will have proved herself a strong and capable leader at the front of a party bristling with talent and be 20 points ahead in the polls...aye right!
36

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 16:40:10
acanthus (32): "Pretty unlikely that Germany will invade Scotland and time soon don't you think?"

Agreed: it's historical counterexample, not a prediction that Germany will found the 4th Reich. Your example of Athens and Sparta is also good, although they never had close personal ties as states. Still, who knows what the future will bring?
37

European Scot,

08/05/2008 16:40:58
23 Media 1

"It's Time" that slogan means exactly what it says, so there can be no stalling. The papers will have a field day with this if he stalls, can you imagine? "

When as a Party you set an agenda, you stick by it.
The SNP have set their time as 2010.
That's what we call consistency, it encourages confidence.
If Wendy wants to change another party's agenda, that's too bad.
The SNP are proving to be a far superior outfit to anything on the Unionist side.
It must rankle, but it just happens to be true.
The Labour Party are a shambles.
Tories or Liberals as an alternative in Scotland ?
I doubt if even you would give that serious consideration.
The SNP north of the border, is the only realistic choice.
You're just going to have to live with it !
38

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 08/05/2008 16:40:59
I see someone compared Alex to a frog turning into a prince when kissed.

Poor Wendy when kissed has just turned into an uglier toad.
39

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit, Scotland 08/05/2008 16:43:20
AM2 #35

Well, in answer to your question it comes down to trends. The trend in the polls is, over time, moving well towards independence. We have a useless Westminster government that seems very unlikely to manage anything more than yet another crisis and implosion. So as long as the SNP manages to keep an even keel between now and 2010 people will inevitably vote for jumping into the SNP lifeboats instead of just going down with Brown's Titanic.
40

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 16:43:23
40, Fairfax. The 4th Reich is the EU.
41

acanthus,

08/05/2008 16:45:27
AM2,

I think you better check your figures, the polls are (and have) for some time stood at netween 34% and 44%. Everyone understands these figures are more or less accurate and all the Unionist know it.

The figures will continue to increase, even Wendy understands that. That is why she acted in this laughable manner.

Explain exactly why it is that the other two unionist parties do NOT want a referendum? Or does the Labour party now stand and speak for all Unionists?
42

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 16:48:47
European Scot (41): "When as a Party you set an agenda, you stick by it."

Sadly conforming to the party manifesto is neither necessary nor sufficient in politics. Alexander is certainly desperate, but, as I pointed out above, this is a rational gamble: its refusal by the SNP allows the emotive slogan "It's Time!" to be become the stuff of satire.
43

Media 1,

cape town 08/05/2008 16:52:37
I am NOT saying that the SNP should just jump because Wendy said they should. I am picking up on what Fairfax said by exclaiming that the press will have a field day with this "it's time"
Thats all I am saying, and the press can hurt a political figure if they want.
44

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 16:54:11
#48 AM2

Poll in England

April 2007: ICM. Independence 68%

45

acanthus,

08/05/2008 16:58:17
48:

Rather selective piece of chrry picking the polls don't you think?
Try these:

51 15 -17
YouGov/Channel 4 (1) 08/01/07 40

TNS System Three/Herald (1) 04/04/08 41

TNS System Three/Herald (1) 01/12/07 40

46

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 17:05:08
47, Fairfax & 49, Media1. I doubt very much if a lot of point scoring can be made on the "It's Time" slogan.

I think the reality is that UUendy has done a lot of damage to herself and Broon and you lot trying to capitalise on a couple of words which brought the SNP into power just makes you out to be as daft as UUendy.

It might have been different if the Tories and LibDems were not now anti UUendy (let alone those in her own party).

My suggestion is that you get back into the woodwork and try another ambush or just participate in the jolly good sense of fair play which is known as being in opposition.

47

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 17:05:18
#54 AM2

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1263284,00.html


I would suggest the number of English who are fed up with Scotland is now nearer 99%.
48

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 17:07:46
AM2 (53): "Erm, got a link to that, please?!"

I think he's referring to this November 2006 poll. If so, then the 68% refers to "home rule" rather than full independence

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535193/Britain-wants-UK-break-up,-poll-shows.html

Of course I strongly approve of such polls, but the Telegraph does not seem to provide any statistical details.
49

Phil o Brian,

08/05/2008 17:08:23
Dear God. lets get this over with. Do we really need another 2 years of all this chatter and meaningless arguement? Does not sound like either labour or the SNP are confident of winning a referendum.
50

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 17:12:12
#59 Fairfax

Yes you are right Fairfax. Only 56% said independence while 68% said home rule. In the case of England ruled by Brown the clown and Darling etc they amount to the same thing.

And of course that was over a year ago. Like I said the number of English wanting independence for Scotland and themselves, maybe with a union with just Wales, would be far higher now.

51

acanthus,

08/05/2008 17:12:40
56 AM2,

Yes we can both cherry pick if we want and copy and paste figures until blue in the face, it makes little difference to the debate and what is happening to the country really does it!

But as you seem so keen on it and have all the figures to hand why then make the statement:

'those which don't offer people the choice of the full range of options but instead force them to make an unrealistic choice, are all over the place'

Why bother posting the polls then?





52

European Scot,

08/05/2008 17:12:54
29 Fairfax

" I hope England and Scotland will remain close allies and friends, but it's hardly automatic. The argument of strong personal ties implying necessary alliance is not justified historically. For example, Sweden did nothing to help Norway during Germany's invasion in 1940....

It's interesting to look back, and it's certainly a Unionist favourite to do so. ( Not that I'm suggesting you are Fairfax ) but let's remain in the context of today.
In the EU, where I would like to see England, and Scotland sitting, and both using the strong and stable Euro, it would be difficult to imagine a last World War scenario.
We have moved on, and we need to keep going forward.
An Independent Scotland seems to be attracting every single flavour of doomsday imagining, yet it is just another country seeking its Independence.
Did all these prophecies of doom apply to any of the other hundreds of countries who gained their Independence in the past ?
Please, let's be more realistic about Scotland.
A population of 5 million, with oil, whisky, agriculture, fishing, banking, insurance, tourism, and natural resources,
The basis for a very comfortable economy.
Do you really think it would have problems settling in with its neighbour ?

47 Fairfax

"Sadly conforming to the party manifesto is neither necessary nor sufficient in politics. Alexander is certainly desperate, but, as I pointed out above, this is a rational gamble: its refusal by the SNP allows the emotive slogan "It's Time!" to be become the stuff of satire."

No, it's time to become the stuff of Saltire !
53

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 17:14:24
#61 Fairfax


Of course you are right again. I will still travel to Scotland and enjoy the majestic scenery after it becomes independent. Thankfully, unlike now, the only time I will have to pay for it is when I go there.
54

acanthus,

08/05/2008 17:14:41
We know how inportant the wording of the question is and choices ..bore bore bore, yes yes yes..and i am sure the SNP are aware of it!
55

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 17:15:35
Jock Tamson (57): "I doubt very much if a lot of point scoring can be made on the "It's Time" slogan."

Perhaps you're correct. However, I strongly suspect it will generate lots of humorous digs at the SNP, particularly from Labour. It has the great advantage that it's really quite funny.

"My suggestion is that you get back into the woodwork and try another ambush"

No ambush intended (at least by me): I'm an English nationalist who supports the Conservatives at present -- I want Scotland to secede. However, even I, much as I despise Labour, must concede that this is a good, if desperate gamble.
56

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 17:18:00
Has no one ever considered that it is the unionists who are constantly dominating our time with the referendum issue?

Perhaps this is why the perceived uncertainty over Scotland that they carp on about is manifest.

My impression was that the SNP were concentrating on running the country and were intending to try to introduce the referendum bill at a later date.

Can we understand from this that UUendy is attempting to prevent the SNP from building upon the Labour foundation for a successful Scotland?

That was me being polite.
57

acanthus,

08/05/2008 17:18:40
68 Faorfax:

'I strongly suspect it will generate lots of humorous digs at the SNP'

I strongly suspect that the SNP will generate a few more digs at the Labour Party with regard to this whole affair, right up to the day before the referendum.
58

Alan B,

08/05/2008 17:21:05
We do not really know how the polls will translate to an actually referendum. John Curtis the electral expert (Stratclyde uni) was on tv the other week saying that opinion polls on the single question of independence showed a roughly even split between those for and those against.

There are alot of unknowns assuming the referendum is autumn 2010.
1)will the calman commission be a damp squib. opinion polls show the most popular option is more powers. some on this site want fiscal autonomy. i cannot see calman coming anywhere close. which way will the dev max brigade jump if dev max is not an option.
2)what will the effect of a tory victory be. labour will be arguing that a possible 12yrs of tory rule under cameron is a price worth paying for the union. this will be made worse if the tories only have a couple of mps.

Given that labour do not want calman put to a referendum and the other unionist parties did not either. Will calman be implemented before a referendum.

Lets say calman comes up with some sort of fiscal federalism advocated by wendy. is scotland going to be better or worse of than before.

Unless oil money comes to scotland then i cannot see any fiscal reform being positive.

If calman a commission for scotland does not recommend scotland gets some of the oil money it is going to look quite stupid.

If salmond welcomes calman as a step forward, and all the unionist parties are signed up, why would they wait for over a yr to implement it.

Unless the snp make big mistakes, the bad publicity brown is going to get as he holds on to the bitter end will mean soaring popularity for the snp.

The lib dems are going to be in the position if calman does not report significant powers, then they will have to either reject it as in adaquate or tell us how great it is despite there position being layed out by the steel commission.

Personally i think the way things are going brown will probably be out before the next election. He is blundering f
59

kimba,

08/05/2008 17:22:20
Salmond is a coward, he knows full well he doesn't stand a chance, but all is not lost,westminster can call one of their own,asking the scottish people if they want to remain part of the union.
60

Alan B,

08/05/2008 17:22:23
sorry meant to say: John Curtis the electral expert (Stratclyde uni) was on tv the other week saying that opinion polls on the single question of independence showed a roughly even split between those for and those against for the last 9yrs.
61

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 17:24:12
European Scot (64): "We have moved on, and we need to keep going forward."

I hope so, but am more pessimistic. In the years leading up to WWI, the strong economic and cultural links between western European nations were often cited as arguments that war was unlikely. I would suggest that humanity never really moves on, in the sense that there will always be disputes and war. Given that the world's population is now large, and claims on resources are increasing, and given that the USA, our hegemon for the past century or so, is beginning to creak somewhat, I would suggest guarded pessimism, rather than optimism, should be the order of the day.

"An Independent Scotland seems to be attracting every single flavour of doomsday imagining"

That's correct, but doomsday scenarios are a large part of current fiction. In a sense, this might be an unusual compliment: doomsday fiction implies that there is something to which disaster can occur.
62

mike3,

Midlands 08/05/2008 17:26:02
More panic from Scots Lab? What a mess they've made over the last many years.
63

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:26:57
75. AM2

I suggest you check how many bills the SNP have delivered. They passed a bill to abolish road tolls. They passed a bill to abolish the graduate endowment.

Please acknowledge your error and withdraw your totally inaccurate "SNP pass one bill" post.

64

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 17:28:10
68, Fairfax. Labour don't have a sense of humour. They may try satire but it will backfire on them as they have no credibility anymore, apart from those unionist worshipers who come on here and try to find excuses to twist the media spin. Ever decreasing circles.

Good luck with the English Nat Party - now there's an idea.
65

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:28:40
69. AS the SNp and Labour, with 93 MSPs and a majority, favour a straight yes/ no referendum, what is the relevance of yoru straw cluthcing "multi-option poll"

And as Labour now favour a referendum before the Calman commission reports, what relevance is there in your posts about a "multi-option" poll?

66

Truely English,

08/05/2008 17:29:25
Why are the Labour Party putting our people to the test regarding a referendum and so quickly. Surely it is clear that our common language, heritage and traditions are important to them.

Queen Margaret of Scotland helped to forge our two peoples into one many centuries ago and now the political parties are trying to make undo this important work.

Long live our Queen and the many parts of the state who promote Britain as one entity.
67

Alan B,

08/05/2008 17:29:51
#AM2

Wendy has ruled out a multi option referendum so the multi option opinion polls are less relevant.

Also it is understand the true meaning of polls when the most favoured option want more powers. What powers?
The media portrayed this as dev max but none of the parties want this the lib dems are closest.

Will calman really come up with dev max? i doubt it.

Many on this site argue for fiscal autonomy and although clearly not representative of the population which way would they go if that option was not on the table.

I find myself while wanting independence as the end goal would like to move to more power option first. Namely fiscal autonomy. Controlling our own taxes and spending is a hugh change and would give us tools to address economic issues. it would also put an end to squabbling over money and the deficits labour would dream up.

That would leave currency, foreign policy, defence and eu membership as the pulled powers. A much cleaner and easier jump and argument to make.
68

acanthus,

08/05/2008 17:31:13
75 AM2,

'The SNP promised five bills in its first 100 days, including bills on criminal justice and student debt'

Yip you are right, that is just why the SNP are doing so poorly in the polls, it's the talk of the nation!

However, what the SNP are not doing is ruining the Economy. My pal down south tells my that in his paper in Lemainigton Spa there is already an increase in house auctions?

I think theses are slighty more important issues don't you?
69

Richardinho,

08/05/2008 17:33:59
An interesting result from this week is that it shows just how beholden to her Westminster masters the Holyrood Labour leader is.

Whilst Alex Salmond is the chief of all he surveys in his party, Wendy within the Labour party is at best a very minor figure.

This is one of the reasons, regardless of the outcome of a referendum, I can see the SNP being a powerful force at Holyrood for the forseeable future-the Scottish people want a Scottish parliament that will stand up for Scotland, not be controlled from Westminster.
70

Alan B,

08/05/2008 17:35:54
#77 AM2

Before the election last yr i remember polls showing the most favoured choice as being independence. (that was before all this multiple options questions).

After the snp got elected support for independence dipped. Only the latest polls show it has recovered to pre-election levels. Why? i do not know. Would just be guessing.

(I am not really big on following opinion polls more interested in economic policy and its implications.)

The biggest question in a referendum could be turnout. Scottish elections get somewhere between 50-60% turnout. Council elections what about 30%? What would a referendum expect?

A good turnout would probably be 50%. The outcome of a refendum could come down to which side is more motivated.
71

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 17:36:16
75, AMtwa.

Do you not think they are concentrating on running the country? Out of the whole post you reply with one statistic which is largely irrelevant to the post.

Now, do you not think that it is UUendy and her antics which is causing the referendum to dominate the political headlines in Scotland while the SNP has concentrated on running the country with a minority government?
72

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:38:34
86. AM2

which party wants a multi-option poll? And what is this mysterious 3rd option that you quote people want in these polls? Can you give me a few details on what they were endorsing? And can you tell me which parties propose waiting for the Calman commission to tell us what might be included?

The SNP wanted a yes/ no vote. Labour want a yes/no vote. So now there is a clear parliamentary majority for this, I am sure you back such an idea?

73

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:40:11
86. Is not "what people really want" better decided in a referendum rather by opinion polls which quote support for an option which is not defined?
74

brownlie,

08/05/2008 17:41:19
77 AM2

Hello, Highland

Not a good move from us to quote Alex Salmond as gospel when we consistently accuse him of misleading people. How clever of you to change your usual quote of 25% as Highland to a quarter as AM2. We unionists can be devious when we want to protect our identity.
75

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:41:34
90. Wendy said she wanted a straight yes/ no "bring it on" referendum..... distressing as the total dissarray of unionism is for you, please keep abreast of current events.

76

acanthus,

08/05/2008 17:43:22
AM2

Just take this figure and see if you can see just how silly is it:

Independence: 22%

This would mean that only 22% of the population are core SNP supporters who believe in independence? Also that 78% are against independence?

Really? You think this is accurate?
77

Richardinho,

08/05/2008 17:44:17
Just in case anyone missed it;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7390204.stm

A great Holyrood parliamentary occasion, I think we can all agree.
78

Alan B,

08/05/2008 17:44:22
#90 AM2

Are u saying she has not ruled out a multi option referendum?

My only source of info is what i see on the tv and read in the papers.

From what she said she wanted a single question referendum. This is the first choice of the snp, who were willing to add a more power option.

She also said on the tv interview i saw , that she wanted the referendum before the calman commission reports. As such there would be no 3rd question.

If u are saying my semantics are wrong, ie i should have siad she wants a single question referendum. rather than specifically ruling out a 3rd question i stand corrected.

79

Brian M,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 17:45:14
I doubt that U-Bendy really knows what she really wants - first of all she was set against a referendum, then she was for a 'commission' to move on from current devolution with possible give and take between Scotland and Westminster as regards powers but no option of independence, now she is suddenly all for a referendum on independence with a simple yes/no question.

Alex should thank U-Bendy for her last wish and put that simple question in the referendum he pledged for 2010/2011 - that's if the parliament pass the bill
80

acanthus,

08/05/2008 17:45:31
Maybe in the Unionists dreams it is real...that would mean that nearly half of the SNP vote does not want independence..haha..right!
81

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:46:45
90. AM2

what are your real thoughts and reaction to the fact that the largest Unionist party now prefers to conduct the defense of the Union according to the international rule book of the contortionist society rather than by reference to fact?

Do you think Gordon Brown told a lie when he said that Wendy did not ask for a referendum?
82

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:50:32
101. And with a whiff of sulphur, the clicking of his red (white and blue) shoes and a burst of God Save the Queen, he is gone... pity, he never did explain what the 3rd option was that people supported in his polls or who proposes such a referendum...
83

Daily user,

Queensferry A.K.A. The FETA (mismanaged) Car Park 08/05/2008 17:51:05
Quote by Rt. Hon Jack McConnell MSP.

PHEW !!!! .....that was close !
84

European Scot,

08/05/2008 17:53:59
76 Fairfax

Fairfax, you ought to slide over to the Independence side a little more, you'll find your pessimism is replaced with a real spirit of optimism.
One side is looking oh so good, and the opposition, just couldn't be doing worse.
Cast your eyes over most of the Unionist posts on here
Doom and gloom merchants, with their, only the Union is worthwhile, only the Union is safe. Yes of course.
Then look at the multi, loaded question polls, and the percentages of same, quoted ad nauseam.
Now look at Wendy and Gordon's behaviour. If those Independence polls, and their percentages, in any way reflected the true position, neither of these politicians would be in such a panic, or in such a mess.
They would be quietly confident, but they're not, clearly not.
The real percentages at this moment, are probably far too close to call.
Brown doesn't want to jump, Wendy does.
Alex stays on course.
2010 will actually give us the truth.
Try a little optimism ! It's good for you !
85

brownlie,

08/05/2008 17:58:59
101 AM2

Highland and I know that a quarter is generally regarded as 25%. Highland also sometimes begins a sentence when he wants to bring attention to something with "Erm," so, co-incidentally do you as in 53 above "Erm, got a link...."

Is it our policy to believe Salmond when he claims that in his manifesto he promised a referendum in 2010 and intends to stick to that?
86

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 08/05/2008 18:08:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYgjHlYzZVY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKGlxlfL8MI
87

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 18:11:48
107. Calomine lotion?
88

James.com,

Clifton 08/05/2008 18:15:37
Independence may be better or worse in economic terms but that is irrelevant. You would never forgive yourselves (or be forgiven by future generations) if you did not try. The non-economic benefits of pride, sense of purpose and freedom will be huge. Do we really feel so much better for all the so-called economic growth of the last 30 years? I suspect that Salmond does not expect to win in 2010 but after proving that the SMP are more competent than Labour (how difficult is that?!), replacing labour MPs at Westminster and reaching the limits of devolution/concessions then there will be a very good chance of success. The Tories in England will probably go along with this because of recent experience of Scottish Labour MPs in England and the prospect of a Socialist-free south. Just a thought - if a devolved Scotland moves to the left of a Tory England there will be a movement of social security migrants, ie. asylum camps at Carlisle not Calais, which will further repel Scotland to independence in order to control its boarders.
89

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 18:22:23
Oh, diddums, did AMtwa no get his ball back?
90

acanthus,

08/05/2008 18:29:36
Latest system 3 poll:

Yes: I agress that people who constantly quote opinion polls are a pain in the a**e: 75%

No: 1%

Status Quo: 127% (this figure varies depending on the wording of the question from between 1 -127%)

Taking into account all the variables we can confirm that 100% of the people in the above poll were a bit bored!
91

Gina Gibson,

Wales 08/05/2008 18:29:45
IT'S TIME..........for Wendy Alexander to F U C K OFF!!
92

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 18:32:35
113. Up or off? Yet again?
93

acanthus,

08/05/2008 18:36:20
110:

Well to be honest and i think it has been said here before it will be interesting for Cameron and the Tories!
Are the Tories still as ruthless as they used to be. Can it be possible that they would force the issue of independence and therebye securing England as conservative for 25 years or more?
It must have crossed their devious, gin tinted minds?
94

acanthus,

08/05/2008 18:38:28
I guess it would ot happen straight away but what about when the Tories start to slide in the polls in in 5 or 10 years time?

Of course we will be free by then so it is irrelivant, right?
95

European Scot,

08/05/2008 18:41:04
107 Jackie Priest/109 Ayrshire Scot

Calman Lotion
Something you apply to try and soothe an irritation.
Unfortunately if you scratch it first, then try pushing up your 'referendum', it can dry up and go flakey.

Seek Independent Advice.
96

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

08/05/2008 18:49:39
TESTING.....F UCK OF
97

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

08/05/2008 18:50:12
TESTING ...B U G G E R
98

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

08/05/2008 18:50:35
t i t s
99

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

08/05/2008 18:53:21
#101. Would you say it is your cowardice that causes your cultish addiction to the masochism of being a Unionist?
100

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

08/05/2008 18:54:24
Sorry for the bout of turret syndrome. Just testing some new Unionist troll detection devices.
101

Truely English,

08/05/2008 18:57:56
29
Of course England and Scotland will remain allies whatever happens if a referendum takes place. After all there is little or no difference between the Scots and the English. So why should they be anything other than part of the same family?
102

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

08/05/2008 19:00:43
#86. Not content with the recent polls, the coward now has to make his own.


Acoording to the latest System AM2 poll. All countries who have declared UDI in the past 50 years now wish to return to their former dictators and are truly sorry for wishing to be independent in the first place. Ireland is doomed as is Iceland, Green land, Montenegro, Costa Rica etc etc . Yawn yawn yawn, f all to see here, go to Glemorangie do not pass go.
103

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

08/05/2008 19:02:39
#122. Nice one Meths will bookmark it for future reference.
104

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

08/05/2008 19:06:08
#123. In the same way that there is no difference between a South African and a North African?

Is it not past your bedtime? Nurse will be along in a minute with your tablets, you must be sure and take them, or do you just want to spend the rest of your life licking windaes?


NURSE NURSE HE'S OUT OF BED AGAIN.
105

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 19:08:05
It is always enlightening to observe the behavior of the labourites at FMQ’s.
Baying, jeering and banging on their desks whilst Scotland’s First Minister was speaking, unveils them as being crass, boorish and resembling a pack of starving hyenas.
Who in their right mind would vote for these embarrassingly moronic imbeciles to represent their best interests?
Led by the ridiculously inept car crash named Wendy, the labourites are in total disarray.
The sheep on her back-benches are in total confusion. “Who do we listen to?” they ask.
Is it Gordon, he of the great clunking fist, who wishes to double the tax on the poorest workers and pensioners?
Or is it the sadly inarticulate Wendy, the defender of the “union”, illegal donations, illegal wars, cash for peerages, PFI rip offs, local hospital closures, post office closures, fisheries closures, removal of attendance allowance, ………………….

I have only just begun.

At every opportunity, Scotland must rise to the occasion and chase these self serving snout dipping charlatans whenever possible.
106

Truely English,

08/05/2008 19:09:01
128
What are the differences between a Scottish person and an English person as I find there are none.
107

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 19:09:25
127. What damage to the Unionist internal combustion did you think AM2 achieved?
108

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 19:10:36
130. The amswer to your question is troll, troll, troll, I wonder if anyone will be silly enough to get trolled by you?

109

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

08/05/2008 19:11:08
http://tinyurl.com/5b29hs


IT'S ALL HERE FOLKS
110

Truely English,

08/05/2008 19:13:27
132
I take it from your answer, that there are no differences. Thank you.
111

Col. Blimp IV*,

08/05/2008 19:13:43
We had a referendum in '79...49% wished no devolution whatever...direct rule from London it would be reasonable to Describe those people as UNIONISTS.

The other 51% was split between NATIONALISTS and...DEVOLUTIONISTS.

Just curious...Have todays Unionists Evolved from the original strain or are they horribly mutated MK1 devolutionists.

The Nationalists seem to have thrived relatively unaltered.

The Devolutionists appear to have changed their habitat.

But what became of the old style Unionists?

Are they extinct?

112

Truely English,

08/05/2008 19:15:22
Why then do the Scots say that they are different from the English when they clearly are not.
113

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

08/05/2008 19:16:46
DEFINITION OF A UNIONIST:

Bob, a lawyer, was driving home over the Golden Gate Bridge after spending a great day out on the ocean fishing. His catch, cleaned and filleted, was wrapped in newspaper on the passenger side floor. He was late getting home and was speeding. Wouldn't you know it, a cop jumped out, radar gun in hand, motioned him to the side of the bridge. Bob pulled over like a good citizen.

The cop walked up to the window and said, "You know how fast you were going, BOY?" Bob thought for a second and said, "Uhh, 60?" "67 mph, son! 67 mph in a 55 zone!" said the cop. "But if you already knew, officer" replied Bob, "Why did you ask me?"

Fuming over Bob's answer, the officer growled, in his normal sarcastic fashion, "That's speeding, and you're getting a ticket and a fine!" The cop took a good close look at Bob, in his stained fishing attire and said, "You don't even look like you have a job! Why, I've never seen anyone so scruffy in my entire life!" Bob answered, "I've got a job! I have a good, well-paying job!" The cop leaned in the window, smelling Bob's fish catch, said, "What kind of a job would a bum like you have?" "I'm a rectum stretcher!" replied Bob. "What you say, BOY?" asked the patrolman. "I'm a rectum stretcher!" The cop, scratching his head, asked, "What does a rectum stretcher do?" Bob explained, "People call me up and say they need to be stretched, so I go over to their house. I start with a couple of fingers, then a couple more and then one whole hand, then two. Then I slowly pull them farther and farther apart until it's a full six feet across."

The cop, absorbed with these bizarre images in his mind, asked, "What the hell do you do with a six foot asshole?" Bob nonchalantly answered, "You give it a radar gun and stick it at the end of a bridge!"
114

GM,

08/05/2008 19:17:41
You've got to give AM2 some credit -
his only contribution to this thread was 'polls' nonsense - cunningly as usual diverting attention away from the facts in hand that Labour are in meltdown...

Todays Scotsman from page and insert on the issue was the first time I've seen that kind of open hostility towards any political member or party not being SNP.

Its clear Wendy has lost the support of this rag.
115

Col. Blimp IV*,

08/05/2008 19:18:58
#137 Truely English,

In what ways do the English differ from Germans.
116

GM,

08/05/2008 19:19:33
'Trolly' English = Truely tedious and boring...

Set yourself up another Id and try another tack.

Score 0 out of 10 on the trollometer (down 1.5 on when you first started this obvious 'wheeze' of yours)
117

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

08/05/2008 19:19:43
A POSITION FOR WENDY: http://tinyurl.com/5ve9sh
118

GM,

08/05/2008 19:20:11
@140

****dont**** please dont... he only wants that kind of response!!
119

acanthus,

08/05/2008 19:22:14
Truely English,

The difference is that you are what is known as an 'English bore' and while Scotland has them we refuse to be a bore and to wear sandals and brown socks!

Keep trolling though, funny!
120

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

08/05/2008 19:22:31
Maybe Kerr and Foulkes could be joint leaders ?

http://tinyurl.com/5ff8sy
121

Truely English,

08/05/2008 19:23:37
141

Shows just how alike the Scots and English are when even Nationalists who shout out that there are differences between the two don't know even one.
122

GM,

08/05/2008 19:23:51
sorry folks - can someone point me to the online version of todays front page story.

I saw it at lunchtime but its disappeared from the website - you know the 'Labour Implodes' story...
123

acanthus,

08/05/2008 19:26:20
146: Truely Boring

You are displaying the differences adequately for everyone to see methinks!
124

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

08/05/2008 19:31:34
1. How do you put a giraffe into a refrigerator?
125

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

08/05/2008 19:32:24
The correct answer is: Open the refrigerator, put in the giraffe, and close the door. This question tests whether you tend to do simple things in an overly complicated way.
126

Willie Macleod,

Wick 08/05/2008 19:35:18
#147 it is on the main news page 1 under more stories right hand column third story down.
127

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 19:38:21
I want to cry when people on here complain about "being ruled by London". I'm being ruled by London as well, but not by Londoners, or even Englanders, but by bloody useless Scots like G Brown and A Darling.
I live in one of the biggest, most dynamic and most successful cities in the world and the guys in charge above the mayor are from Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath and Edinburgh South West.
What the hell are they doing here? They are Scots, they should be in Scotland, screwing up their own country.
128

Soosider,

Glasgow 08/05/2008 19:42:11
I have been a supporter of Independence for Scotland all my life. For many years I have believed that Independence would come when the socialist heart of what was Labour wanted it. I begin to see this happening where even life long Labour voters are starting to actually consider not voting Labour, where they are starting to realise that there is another way and that all the scare stories they have believed, were actually just lies. They are beginning to realise that New Labour has betrayed decent honest socialist principles and played them for fools. It is sad to see so many decent people betrayed in such a way. But I do think we are seeing the beginning of the end of the union. The opportunity for independence is close, the only way we can miss it is if we mess it up. Keep a clear head and a steady purpose and we will get there
129

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 19:45:08
European Scot (105): "Fairfax, you ought to slide over to the Independence side a little more, you'll find your pessimism is replaced with a real spirit of optimism."

I am on the independence side, but the state whose independence I desire is England's. The pessimism is just the Hobbesian tragic view.
130

fans of spl,

08/05/2008 19:47:57
#20 Jimmy The Pie

If so....Why?
Don't they know there's an energy crisis?
131

Busymale,

08/05/2008 19:49:33
#153

They are already "screwing up their own country" - thats why we want independence.

132

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 19:50:22
Welcome back AM2,
I see yer back tae the owld 'cut n paste' keech.
Just like your heroine nae substance aw Mooth an nae brains.

GM heres the link

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Labour-implodes-over-independence-vote.4061348.jp

I had to Google it it seems the Hootsmaun has pulled from this site, after 417 comments.
_______________________________________
UUendy wis fair flumoxed lookin the day oan FMQ's, efter her 'Big Dig' at Eck she hud a smile like a Chesire Cat oan her owld fisog, but that wis soon tae turn intae a tortured grimace, efter first Eck, then Big Bella and wee Nick hud a go at hur.

She couldnae even answer the question asked when she wis skurryin oot o Holyrood, 'Does the Prime Minister back you on a referendum?'

As for her wantin a refredum now!! Even she admits that cannae happen as it would take at least 18 months to put it through Parliament so at the earliest Jan/Feb 2010, hardly 'Bring it oan' material noo is it?

Like the rest o Nu Labour/Owld Torie she's jist anither chancer.
133

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 19:51:54
#157 Busymale

It is not their country. They are Scots, we are English.
134

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 19:56:31
Please everyone sign the following

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Break-the-union/
135

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 19:58:56
# 162 Happy English

Spot on. And if they can take back George Galloway as well it would be the cherry on the cake.
136

acanthus,

08/05/2008 20:03:49
162:

If the majority of 'English' want it then vote for English independence, why hang onto the coat tails of the Scots and wait for it to happen.

Take your own destiny in you own hands and stop whingeing and carping about Scotland.

Funny to see all of these comments 'creeping' up now as i don't seem to remember them flooding the newspapers calling for Scottish Independence when Thatcher was pulling the country apart!


137

Conan the Librarian™,

08/05/2008 20:06:45
159
Well, YOU tell Truely English the difference then.

He might take it from an Englishman.
He may like Cockneys.
138

Truely English,

08/05/2008 20:08:09
152
As usual the Nationalist Scots are unable to find any differences between themselves and the English as there are none.
Abuse is quite natural when one has no answer. Nothing new there then.
158
Scottish-English with a few changed letters.
139

Brian M,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 20:11:10
Re English or German, Is the so-called Royal Family not of German roots, after all they changed their name from Saxe-Coburg to Windsor.

And Charles the prince of Wales motto is something like Ich Dien, is that not German for I rule
140

acanthus,

08/05/2008 20:12:22
It really is a shame for all the Scottish Unionists here that they are having to bicker with the English who want them out of England (the majority apparently).

Perhaps they should all go to the English boards and try and convinve them to let Scotland stay in the Union lol.

Does manke me laugh though!
141

acanthus,

08/05/2008 20:14:02
Presumably the Unionists who according to the polls are 75% of the Scottish population will have more than enough volunteers to bicker in Scotland and England lol
142

acanthus,

08/05/2008 20:17:05
That these Unionists are willing to be laughed at by the English , insulted and called 'smellies' and 'subsidised Jocks' and yet they still accept it?

They really are pathetic!
143

Brian M,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 20:17:27
Anyway, Alex has asked U-Bendy to coin another phrase following her 'bring it on'.

Any suggestions as to what she might come up with.



144

Truely English,

08/05/2008 20:18:42
165
At long last someone with brains and a bit of knowledge.
Yes, the Germans are different for exactly the reasons you mentioned and the Scots are not for exactly the same reasons.
The Scots and English share the same language (English)and culture in all its formats, even Bagpipes.

145

Ted Voth Jr,

Mad Town Wes' Consin 08/05/2008 20:19:13
I envy you over there in Britannia and Caledonia! Y'all in the Home Island don't know how good you've got it!

Something's still working over there! I can't imagine living in a country where the Press expects to be in constant touch with the government! Where three hours is too long to be out of touch!

Hey, Scots, Brits, how about a government that hides for three weeks, or three months, or three years?
146

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 20:19:19
#164 Acanthus

They gave Scotland their own parliament, they gave Wales its own assembly and they gave England absolutely nothing. How would you feel if the MP from Surrey was voting in the Scottish parliament?
We have Scots unelected by anyone in England, such as the PM and the Chancellor, voting on English issues all the time.
They will never give us the chance to vote on our own independence because they know what the result would be. We have a Scottish parliament run by Scots, a Westminster parliament run by Scots and a Welsh Assembly run by the Welsh. English people get no say.
The majority of English people don't want to be part of the union but we will never be given our own referendum.
Happily, the Scots will get the chance, and if they have to vote once every six months until they give the right answer then so be it. Best for all concerned if they vote yes to independence from the start.
Wendy Alexander is absolutely right. We should have a referendum in Scotland NOW.
147

Independence? Bring it On!,

08/05/2008 20:20:35
Jings what a day. Glorious weather, spent most of the day kite buggying, achy balls and probably too much sun on my napper and shoulders, but the one of those days that makes you glad to be breathing regularly.

Listening to some wondrous Afrobeats from Tony Allan and Fela Kuti, glass of cold Leffe sweating a figertip away and just watched Holyrood Live on aye-player. Poor the WENDY, surely her life couldn't get any worse.
148

Jimmy the Pie,

08/05/2008 20:20:44
Breaking News

Labour at 23% on latest Yougov poll. Lowest ever rating since records began. Tories on 49% Libdums 18% . No SNP as it is an English Sun poll.

Keep up the good work Comrade Broon
149

Nikostratos,

08/05/2008 20:21:18
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/08/scotland.labour

Alex Salmond has warned Gordon Brown that the Scottish nationalists will vote along with the Tories at Westminster after the next general election if it helps to achieve independence for Scotland.

In an interview with the Guardian to mark the Scottish National party's first year in power at Holyrood, Salmond predicted that the next election would produce a hung parliament – forcing Westminster to "dance to a Scottish jig".

But Alex isn't trying to foment 'strife' with Westminster



But Salmond admitted that the SNP still had to prove itself in government and persuade Scots that independence was a far less violent event than his opponents claimed, in order to win that vote.

It would not be a cataclysmic separation from the UK, he said, adding that he wanted to preserve a close "social union" and trading union between Scotland and England, Wales and Northern Ireland – describing them as a group of "united kingdoms".

Scotland would keep the Queen as the head of state.

"That's very much what we want," he said. "Separation is a long-term pejorative word used by the unionists in Scotland to try to either deflect or depress support or somehow imply Scotland would somehow be cut off or 'separated' from other countries or from Europe, or from England or wherever.

"Quite clearly, in the modern world, independence and interdependence are parts of the same coin, parts of the same process … Separation is an antiquated or outdated word in the modern world."

Can anyone explain what Alex means is Independence a separation from the United Kingdom or not? if not why bother.

Not a United Kingdom but "group of "united kingdoms".
whats that supposed to mean in what way 'united'
150

Fairfax,

08/05/2008 20:24:02
Brian M (170): "And Charles the prince of Wales motto is something like Ich Dien, is that not German for I rule"

No. It's German for "I serve". It was the motto of King John the Blind of Bohemia, who continued to fight (with assistance), despite his blindness, on the French side during the Hundred years War. I believe he died at Crecy, an English victory almost as marvellous as Flodden, in 1346. The then Prince of Wales, Edward the Black Prince, was so impressed that he adopted his motto.

As for the German origin of the Hanoverians, please remember that it derives from James VI/I's daughter Elizabeth, the Winter Queen, who married Elector Frederick of Bohemia just before 1618. Her husband lost his throne in the Thirty Years Was (in which Leslie fought for Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden, so there are several Scots connections).
151

acanthus,

08/05/2008 20:26:05
181 Am

You should reply with your arguments to 178 London Calling.

He is an Englishman who wants the Jocks out, speak to him about it!

And while you are at it thank him for England giving us a parliament and be a good little Unionist!

But good luck trying to convince him!
152

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 08/05/2008 20:31:58
#175

Bring it up?

Bendy's quite adept at that, to most folk - every time she opens her gub, she makes me want to puke! ;-)
153

Mike Harding,

Liverpool 08/05/2008 20:32:19
Scots: "Give us independence ... the English conquered us and have ruled us for too long"
English: "Go on then ..."
Scots: "Ermm ... no ... we want to wait a bit ... we're not ready yet"

Haha ... the Labour party called your bluff. Have the referendum or be quiet ... ignore the manifesto and childish politicians ... either the people want the vote or they don't.
154

acanthus,

08/05/2008 20:33:47
Have you been on their boards and seen the racial language?

It seems to me that they are much more prone to it than the Scots yes! Even on the Telegraph, Times and Guardian's sites.

Full of 'get the jocks out'..you don't find that offensive?

I see little of it here, do you?

I notice you seem not to be talking to him? At 33% in England the levels are much higher than Scotland according to your posts, don't you think you should be trying to convince them?

155

Mike Harding,

Liverpool 08/05/2008 20:35:25
#186

Racial offence? Clearly you have no clue about what racism is or what the term means. Xenophobia maybe, but not racism. You can use various search engines on the internet to lookup what these words mean before you use them.
156

Conan the Librarian™,

08/05/2008 20:37:24
179
Indy
"kite buggying, achy balls"
Did you mispell buggying?

Ah Leffe. Have you tried the Radieuse?
157

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/05/2008 20:40:18
AM2 Good Evening

No need to quote all these polls, especially the ones that are clearly history. I think you've made your point. I do, however, think Wendy's playing with fire when she wants a straight yes or no referendum. And doing so from a base lacking little credibility.

Henry McLeish was interviewed on Good Morning Scotland on Tuesday. He welcomed Wendy's foray into the constitutional debate but warned against trying to run with the referendum too early and with only two choices. He said, the whole of Scotland should now be engaged in 'conversation' about the constitutional question, and also said the people needed some time to think the whole thing through. Quite sensible I thought.

He stated that he would be for some sort of federal system for the UK. Care to discuss?
158

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 20:41:04
160. :-) wit?

190. But the Labour party said last month "a referendum is not a question for any serious thinking politician" and Gordon Brown said yesterdau he didn't want one - you mean the Labour party are trying to call their own bluff, or, erm, something?
159

acanthus,

08/05/2008 20:41:32
AM2:

Looks like you have a lot of convincing to do, can't you just smell the animosity?

I am sure you will win him over with you opinion poll findings though lol!
160

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 20:43:46
202. Firm? Moist?
161

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 20:47:24
205. Tut, tut, AM2

you did not answer me above on which parties in the Scottish parliament advocate your multi-option referendum, what is the relevance of your multi-option poll given 93 MSPs now support a yes/no vote, and how you think of the Labour strategy? Most dissappoited.
162

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 20:48:51
208. Hey you asked how the English feel. How do they feel toward Scotland?
163

acanthus,

08/05/2008 20:52:01
Bye they i mean the ones busy insulting your position of Unionism, like Happy London who said the English 'gave' us a parliament'.

Where did i say the 'english' are racist? I am not aware of stating such a thing..wrong yet again!

What i did say was that some of their views are more extreme than anything posted here that i can see, wrong again!

You have a bit of a thrashing tonight from all sides of the border i think but please try and refrain from deliberately lying in your posts.

I know you are a bit desperate and now lying as well..maybe we should call you Wendy?

164

Calum Crubag,

08/05/2008 20:53:53
Media 1...
It just so happened that the Europeans were cultured and modern, learned and efficient, whereas the Zulus were primitive tribal people.

Aye right - slaughter and apartheid are 'cultured'. Heil! You're so New Labour. No wonder you're a unionist... in your colonial African home.

Proof that it's time to turn our backs on the backward imperialist and warmonger ideas of 'Great' Britain.
165

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 20:55:15
211. AM2 - the SNP favour a yes/ no referendum (47 MSPs). The Labour group favour a yes/ no referendum (46 MSPs).I count 93 (+/- minus Karen Gillon)
Duncan McNeil has said "all Labour MSPs will vote for a yes/no referendum". Wendy Alexander demands a yes/no referendum.

Karnen Gillon can be be replaced by Margo - so still 93, and the Greens are a good bet
166

acanthus,

08/05/2008 20:56:04
205 AM:

Not my political interests really as the English have no say on Scottish Independence. J
ust trying to help you and alert you to another possible threat to the Union.
Do i even get a word of thanks from you?
167

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/05/2008 20:57:32
210 AM2

The reason I asked was because you have mentioned in the past that you would be for a 'federal' system. It could be argued that this debate could bounce (latest buzz word) David Cameron ( the next PM ) into constitutional action along these lines. The major stumbling block for his party of course is the current Head of State. Don't you think?
168

Calum Crubag,

08/05/2008 20:57:34
Fairfax, my German friend here doesn't recognise your 'Ich dien'. Though suffice to say, the English and Germans have a lot in common. Und das ist geil, nein?
169

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 20:57:52
213. AM2 - come come, 93 MSPs, a clear majority, belong to parties who want a referendum before the Calman commission reports, or who who do not belong pto a party represented on it. Do please explain what the relevance of the Calman commission 3rd option is when Labour dont care to include it in the referendum?
170

Conan the Librarian™,

08/05/2008 20:58:51
203
The Times and the Telegraph certainly do cover Scots stories.They Patronise and rely on stereotypes.
Then get back to the "proper" news about a large family that live rent free in the middle of London.
And somebody with the unappealing initials BJ.
171

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 20:59:07
213. Ps - AM2 - for the third time I note you dont answer a simple question - which parties in the Scots Parliament favour your multi-option referendum?
172

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 21:00:25
213,,, and a good evening to you.
173

European Scot,

08/05/2008 21:00:47
181 AM2

"A Sunday Mail poll in October 2007 found that one in three (33%) of English voters thought that England should split from Scotland. That was the highest such figure ever recorded in a poll and subsequent surveys have been lower."

" Quite why you're insisting that a majority of people in England want to break up the UK is unclear to me. Why are you doing that? "

"A clear majority of people in both England and Scotland are in favour of full independence for Scotland, an ICM opinion poll for The Sunday Telegraph has found. Independence is backed by 52 per cent of Scots while an astonishing 59 per cent of English voters want Scotland to go it alone.

There is also further evidence of rising English nationalism with support for the establishment of an English parliament hitting an historic high of 68 per cent amongst English voters. Almost half – 48 per cent – also want complete independence for England, divorcing itself from Wales and Northern Ireland as well. Scottish voters also back an English breakaway with 58 per cent supporting an English parliament with similar powers to the Scottish one."

This was from the Telegraph November 2006.
There is more to be found here:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535193/Britain-wants-UK-break-up,-poll-shows.html
174

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 21:03:25
223. AM2

211. AM2 _ Now answer the question: - the SNP favour a yes/ no referendum (47 MSPs). The Labour group favour a yes/ no referendum (46 MSPs).I count 93 (+/- minus Karen Gillon)
Duncan McNeil has said "Labour MSPs not stand in the way of a referendum (or similar)". Wendy Alexander demands a yes/no referendum.

Karnen Gillon can be be replaced by Margo - so still 93, and the Greens are a good bet
175

Conan the Librarian™,

08/05/2008 21:08:20
230
Hi Meths.Might as well talk amongst ourselves for a while.AM2 and Ayrshire are at DEFCON 1.
176

Independence? Bring it On!,

08/05/2008 21:10:43
#195 Conan, Radieuse? Sunshine in a bottle. I brought several cases back last November in Luxembourg (much cheaper) when I was bringing a motorhome back from Germany. Love the Bleu and trippel as a tipple. Of courshe sinsh firsht typing #179 I've opened another...

Great day eh? Nice to see our unionist chumrades parading around with their bloomers more twisted than a twisty thing.
177

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/05/2008 21:10:58
227 AM2

I think it was you. Unless someone was doing a fakey.

You also said you found yourself liking some of the policies that the SNP was carrying out. Was that you or a fakey?

Anyway, in a 3 option referendum, how would you vote?
178

GM,

08/05/2008 21:10:59
AM2

youve posted here that you feel Labour are in disarray (even they dont know what they are doing type of thing)...

what do you feel the latest Wendy debacle has added to the union/independence debate? Has it damaged the unionist cause do you think?
179

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/05/2008 21:16:57
245 happy english

The resentment that you talk about has been largely hyped by the media.

I think there is a sense of injustice that pervades amongst Scots AND English, and an acknowledgement that the current constitutional set up doesn't serve either country very well.

I have many English friends, some of whom already vote SNP. It's not about race, it's about fairness and representative government.
180

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 21:19:01
250. I accept the McNeil quotation as you state it. Now, for the 4th time, my questions which you failed to answer were:

- Which parties back a multi-option referendum which incorporate the Calman commission report?

- What is the relevance of your 3 option polls given 93 MSPs back a referendum which ignores Calman?

- Do you agree that as 93 MSPs back a yes/ no vote on independence this should go ahead


I also note that you said before the SNp introduced only 1 bill - would you care to correct?

181

ZenBroon,

Glesca 08/05/2008 21:19:02
I lived happily in Manchester for 8 years. No disrespect, but my English pals (from both North and South) knew virtually nothing about Scotland and cared even less. "Yeah, independence, man, go for it, whatever..." Honestly, they won't notice we've gone.
182

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/05/2008 21:20:47
254 Sorry correction...

It's not about race, it's about fairness, cultural distinction and representative government.
183

Shettlestonian,

Shettleston 08/05/2008 21:21:05
Wendy at her best yet again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekXTjzsyaog
184

Tub of Ice cream,

08/05/2008 21:21:46
#255 AM2

Well Wendy may have taken our referendum but she will never take my ice cream ..NEVER!!!NEVER!!!!NEVER!!!!
185

Independence? Bring it On!,

08/05/2008 21:22:02
#250 Feller don't you feel just a smidge pedantic after typing that?

McNeil was speaking on behalf of the Labour group of MSPs. Nobody corrected him, the only option his comments leave to the Labour party in Holyrood is for them to abstain when the bill comes to Parliament. After all once you've u-turned as many times as the Labour Party, what's one more?
186

European Scot,

08/05/2008 21:22:05
229 AM2

"Ah, the infamous freak ICM result of November 2006."

This is your answer AM2 ?
So why is this a freak and infamous poll ?
Is this just your opinion ?

Your claim was that 33% of English voters thought that England should split from Scotland, and you then went on to say, that was the highest such figure ever recorded in a poll.
What was shown in the ICM poll figures, quoted from the Telegraph, appears to be at odds with your statement above, it showed a figure of 48%.
187

acanthus,

08/05/2008 21:22:12
250 AM2,

I find it funny that you should quote what Duncan McNeil says and they try to analyise either what or what it does not imply?

Surely the past few days have shown that if the Labour Party are having problems with what they did and did not imply then trying to pin any of them down at the moment is rather futile.

It might all change again tomorrow ;-)
188

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 21:24:36
250. Ok, AM2, the "we will note vote against any referendum bill" quote does not signal support for a referendum ( although clearly if Labour does not vote against any such bill it will pass nad Wendy says she wants a yes/ no referendum)

Now, I not for 5th time no answer to questions above:

- Which parties back a multi-option referendum which incorporate the Calman commission report?

- What is the relevance of your 3 option polls given 93 MSPs back a referendum which ignores Calman?

- Do you agree that as 93 MSPs back a yes/ no vote on independence this should go ahead


I also note that you said before the SNP introduced only 1 bill (even though the bridge toll and graduate endowment bills are already law) - would you care to correct?
189

Conan the Librarian™,

08/05/2008 21:25:27
244
Got some Chouffe in the fridge...

Got some Chouffe in a glass...

Got shome.

I've been thinking about all the new nicknames for Wendy, and thought that u-bendy was most appropriate.Your thoughts?
190

Truely English,

08/05/2008 21:25:27
252
It is not very long ago since Scots used their proper name for themselves; Inglis. Which simply means English. No brain surgeon or baker would have difficulty with the name.
It shows one more way that there is no distinction between the Scots and the English. Indeed it may be correct to call the Scots the Real English now.
191

acanthus,

08/05/2008 21:26:17
266:

So after making a fool of themselves and calling for a referendum they would then abstain would they, hardly!

192

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 21:27:19
266. Poor AM2.

93 MSPs now back a yes/ no referendum. Do you?

193

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 21:28:12
202, happy english, the English feel with their mouths.

How do they do that? They go somewhere and open their mouths. Then they ignore the feedback and call the natives some derogatory name.
194

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 21:30:06
266. Am2

you still do not answer. Here are the questions again:

- Which parties now back a multi option referendum

(hint - the Lib Dems oppose any referendum with independence, the Tories oppose any referendum with independence. and Labour now want a yes/ no referendum)

- What is the relevance of your multi-option stuff when no party wants such a poll and no party wants the output in a referendum

Care to try answering the questions this time?

Cards, table and casino (who said that?)
195

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 21:32:02
278. More bitter and foamy though
196

Independence? Bring it On!,

08/05/2008 21:32:47
#270 Conan, I can't refer to her as anything other than the WENDY in capitals, after Gerri Peev or some such Hootsman sycophant wrote a buttock licking article proclaiming how she was similar to Madonna, Kylie or Elvis in that she only needed one name to identify her.

Failing that I'd go for "Rubber lipped kant."
197

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 21:35:26
Truely English, you require a brain transplant. The only difference between the Scots and the English is that the Scots are Scots and the English are English.

I notice the difference every time I go to England. The people 20 miles from ma hoose are different to me - we are not homogenised, you know.
198

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 21:36:54
So, happy engish @ 282, you agree with me.
199

Steve,

Bo'ness 08/05/2008 21:36:55
What a hard neck, someone calling himself by the (misspelt) monicker "Truely English" trying to say there is no such thing as truly Scottish!!
200

acanthus,

08/05/2008 21:37:54
Ironic that when the SNP decide to call it Labour will have no alternative other than to support the referendum, otherwise of course (if Wendy had not opened her gob) the SNP would have had to work a lot harder to get the bill through.
So we have to than Labour to thank for making the task much easier and proabaly bring about independence lol!
201

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/05/2008 21:38:03
Ayrshire

I fear AM2 has slithered away again. He wouldn't answer my questions either, preferring to concentrate on meaningless rhetoric. I must admit, I did expect more from him and I think you did too. We will know better next time. In my eyes his reputation is now closer to that of Highland Mighty and Grahamksi. Quite a fall.
202

ZenBroon,

08/05/2008 21:38:50
Truely English writes "It is not very long ago since Scots used their proper name for themselves; Inglis. Which simply means English." Don't worry, Truely English, an easy mistake to make. The Scottish people have never been called "Inglis". You are thinking of the Scots _language_ which *was* called Inglis sometimes, simply to distinguish it from Gaelic. The term hasn't been used since the early 18th century.
203

,

08/05/2008 21:40:24
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204

Bill, Middle England,

08/05/2008 21:42:40

As an English citizen keen to see the independence of all UK nations combined with friendly co-operation on matters of mutual interest, I'm staggered by the negativity of debate and lack of vision in Scotland.

An independent Scotland is going to fail, politically and economically, if it's key foundation is sticking two fingers up at the English.

Independence should be an opportunity for Scotland to flourish. That won't happen without leaders of vision. A vision that makes an independent Scotland tick, not simply makes Scotland independent.





205

Mike Harding,

Liverpool 08/05/2008 21:43:24
I think ZenBroon hit the nail on the head ... there is a percentage of Scots who really care about this issue of independence. The percentage of English is much, much lower. We're not a nation of Scot hating thugs ... we really care lots less.

Sure, we don't want to see Scotland go ... but if that happens, then good luck. It'd be nice to see some arguments for Scottish independence other than those which which say 'we hate the English'.
206

Independence? Bring it On!,

08/05/2008 21:47:25
#295 Bill, do you get out much?
207

Steve,

Bo'ness 08/05/2008 21:47:36
Erm.. who exactly is saying we hate the English?
Show me the evidence.

Urban myth, peddled by desperate unionists.
Don't fall for it.
208

,

08/05/2008 21:47:46
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209

acanthus,

08/05/2008 21:47:50
296:

Where do you get the idea that Scottish Nationalism is about 'hating the English'?
210

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 21:49:03
292, ZenBroon. There was a very interesting article in the Scotsman one December Saturday in 1975 (still waiting for the online archive to open) which records the history of "Inglis" and its proper Latin name.

But there again you would probably have to wait longer for that to go online than have that Truely troll come out with anything other than a post enhancer bit of crop-stirring spin.
211

acanthus,

08/05/2008 21:49:55
Why you posting here if you don't care less? That makes a lot of sense, like your posts lol
212

Independence? Bring it On!,

08/05/2008 21:50:41
Poor Happy, he sounds....sad. Truelly...
213

,

08/05/2008 21:52:02
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214

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 21:52:36
302, happy english. You do not get to me. I feel sorry for you. You have to comment on a Scottish newspaper forum.
215

Conan the Librarian™,

08/05/2008 21:52:53
281
Indy
Ah! Transcendental idealism, She believes what she perceives is actually what Broon sees too!
Even if it isn't!

That sums up Unionist philosophy about independence.

Kant.
216

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 21:53:09
291. Andrew BOD

indeed, I think all who read these posts can see that AM2 repeatedly failed to answer, or even try to answer, the questions you and I put to him.

Being charitable, we can maybe attribute this to shell-shock on his part as the Unionist position has imploded - the members of the Calman commission are now totally denouncing its architect, and AM2 was hanging onto it as a talisman.... sad day for Unionists... but let us be charitable...
217

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/05/2008 21:53:46
295 Bill

There is plenty vision for an independent Scotland only not on this thread. Views can become quite polarized and defensive here, sometimes descending into the gutter. Now and again a debate can be engaging and some of us live in hope for that, but not very often.

'Sticking two fingers up at the English' is not what Independence is about, and some of those forward thinking views have been expressed if you look closely enough. England should become a 'best friend' with Scotland when both countries are independent. However, I fear that some of your own countrymen have come onto this very thread with a contrary view.

218

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 21:55:10
306. Jeez, if we can use baby oil for it, I am hot for it
219

,

08/05/2008 21:57:09
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220

,

08/05/2008 21:59:18
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221

Bill, Middle England,

08/05/2008 22:00:12

ppink,

Alex's vision runs out the day after Independence Day.

Of course, Scotland has the capacity to flourish as an independent country. I wish it well - but few seem to be offering any vision as to how it is going to happen.

222

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 22:00:43
313. What you mean on top? sitting on it? Jeez, try to be more specific.
223

Steve,

Bo'ness 08/05/2008 22:00:56
312, not sure if you're being reactionary but I do like the English, so lets not embarrass ourselves with sweeping generalisations.It's not the English people who are holding Scotland back, it's the Labour Party.
224

,

08/05/2008 22:01:38
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225

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 22:05:12
314. How do you think Scotland could flourish independent?

You say no one has said anything - of course the SNP has published detailed policy papers on it, why do you say no one says anything about it? Did you not do any research before posting, or do you think a budget and economic strategy for an independent Scotland will be posted at 10pm on some weird comments board of the Scotsman? No offence, but are you a total pillock? Why don't you go read the SNP blue print for a Scotland independent, or the 100s of policy papers buy others on it, rather than post a meaningless " no one says anything" post on here? Just makes you look like a total tool who hasn't given the matter 2 seconds thought?
226

,

08/05/2008 22:06:11
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227

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 22:06:15
317. Ride it bitch
228

Truely English,

08/05/2008 22:08:33
292

Can you explain who or what a Truly Scottish person is?
229

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 22:09:06
306 & 312, Bop. How's that for onomatopœia?

It is better to pity the English than dislike them. They have no culture of their own. Even Morris dancing is Moorish dancing - and they are too scared to dance unless they are peshed.
230

acanthus,

08/05/2008 22:10:34
I find it staggering some of the ignorance displayed by some of the English towards this issue, they seem to fall into three categories:

1. Fcuk off then if that's what you want to do!

2. You need us

3. Good luck if that is what the people want.
231

Steve,

Bo'ness 08/05/2008 22:10:37
Bill, middle England.
You'd do well to actually find out about the independence movement, before boring us with your unfounded observations from afar.

Why are you here anyway-to tell us how misguided we are?
What's YOUR interest in Scottish politics?
232

,

08/05/2008 22:11:00
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233

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 22:12:13
322. Truely English

the English are totally the same as the French and the Australians. There is no meaningful difference between the English and the Spainish - an online translator thing like babbelfish deals with linguistic stuff, beyond that there the English are identical to the Irish or the French or Spainsih - - same climate, landscape, art, cultural intersest etc

234

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 22:13:14
326. Jeez, Labour are way too tiny to get on top off...

235

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 22:13:18
The reason I pity the English more than dislike them is that, while other countries are influenced by other countries, the English try to plagiarise everything and claim it as their own.
236

Truely English,

08/05/2008 22:13:19
323
Since when did Scotland have a culture other than an English one. The Scots have never stopped taking from the English culture and making it their own.
We have the same language and culture and this is clear for all to see even First Minister Alex Salmond.
237

Independence? Bring it On!,

08/05/2008 22:13:38
#322 There's no such thing. Much like there's no such thing as a truly English person. Duh!


Currently listening to Tinariwen on Last.fm. It rawks
238

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 22:16:16
330. I agree, The English are the same as the Irish and Belgians.
239

Steve,

Bo'ness 08/05/2008 22:16:22
330, what is "English culture"?
240

,

08/05/2008 22:16:53
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241

acanthus,

08/05/2008 22:17:50
330:

I come from a Gaelic culture which is completely seperate from an English culture.

The Highlands did not develop from the single pig keeping serf-like culture of England and Germany.
242

Truely English,

08/05/2008 22:18:18
327
It is so clear that the Scots are English as they see no difference between the English and the French.
Deaf and blind they are it seems.
243

acanthus,

08/05/2008 22:18:44
We had good looking sheep instead!
244

Independence? Bring it On!,

08/05/2008 22:19:21
#308 Conan

As you can see from her website the WENDY has developed the distinction between an object of art as a material value subject to the conventions of society and the transcendental condition of the judgment of taste as a "refined" value.


At Wendy's®, we're unrivalled in our passion for giving people what they want — and uncompromising in giving people what they deserve.


http://www.wendys.com/
245

Bill, Middle England,

08/05/2008 22:19:41

Ayshire Scot


I've read plenty of Scottish independence papers. I'm not impressed. Even a total pillock doesn't attempt a detailed analysis at 10pm on this sort of thread.

The point is Scotland faces a bleak independence on current proposals. Unlike England.



246

Conan the Librarian™,

08/05/2008 22:20:10
330
Since when did England have a culture other than an Scots one. The English have never stopped taking from the Scots culture and making it their own.
Remember you are ruled by Scots, your civil service is run by Scots and your wars are fought by Scots.
Isn't it about about time you stood up for yourselves?
247

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 22:20:12
336. Well said, and indeed the Scots are English are French are Belgioum are Flemish
248

acanthus,

08/05/2008 22:21:08
Hence the English are obsessed with their station in life and are almost spechless with admiration of their upper classes.

Something thankfully the Scots have little time for, there is one rather large cultural difference!
249

,

08/05/2008 22:21:15
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250

Steve,

Bo'ness 08/05/2008 22:22:07
336, you're flogging a dead horse.
We don't give a damn about what England thinks. The English are not relevant to the debate about sovereignty. We have no greivance with the English people. So why are you trying to construct one?

Try turning the telly on, and let us get on with discussing our future in peace, ffs.
251

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 22:22:50
339. Bill

if you had read loads of papers on Scottish independence, why did you post complaining about material on it? You look like a posturing mountebank, onanist, liar and pillock now.

And if as at 339 you think any serious discussion of the economics of independence is possible after 10pm, why did you lament about the lack of at your post at 9.50pm? Are you just a dribbling, chugging, pathetic window licker? Looks like it from your posts.
252

acanthus,

08/05/2008 22:23:01
I have actually seen some English people become almost incapable of speech when a few Lords turned up at a do!

Interestingly there was one Scottish one there who, when i spoke to him asked me to address him by his first name.

By contrast the English ones were addressed as you Lordshit this and that...was an interesting evening!
253

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 22:23:29
343. While you are riding it, or after?
254

kirk 1,

08/05/2008 22:24:14
Tomorrow's Times newspaper calls for Wendy's head, for the good of the Labour party both north and south of the border.

http://tinyurl.com/54rsrd




255

Truely English,

08/05/2008 22:24:20
335
The Highlanders around Inverness are the best English speakers in the world and they are proud of this fact. Indeed an Inverness person talked about a Coast Wester as a form of abuse while talking to friends last week, whatever that means.
256

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 22:25:25
349. Wells aid, the Highlanders are as French and German as the English.
257

,

08/05/2008 22:25:43
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258

acanthus,

08/05/2008 22:25:52
335:

I have lived there and this was a line coined by Unionists in mockery that Gaelic speakers had become English speakers. Know what you are talking about you fool!
259

ZenBroon,

Glesca 08/05/2008 22:26:42
Maybe a conclusion from this discussion is that the English and Scots actually share a deep mutual ... disinterest. We don't hate each other, but don't want to be 'special friends' any more either. Only one solution, I'm afraid. Who gets custody of wee Wendy, though?
260

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 22:27:27
339. Bill


you said of the economics of independence - "Even a total pillock doesn't attempt a detailed analysis at 10pm on this sort of thread."

I ask again, why then did you decry, at 9.50pm, a lack of detail on the economics of independece on this thread? Are you a total pillock?
261

acanthus,

08/05/2008 22:27:43
349:

I am from the western isles and i am happy to call you a dick..no problem.
262

,

08/05/2008 22:29:04
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263

Queen D,

Glasgow 08/05/2008 22:29:37
Will the entertainment never end?
From Wendy doing a hand brake turn, to saying her boss backed her , to watching various Labour MSPs saying they were agreed on a referendum bill and would support it.To Ian Grey trying to find a hole in the floor to wriggle into on Newsnight and the delightful FMQs today.
I have'nt laughed so much in ages!
What next , I wonder ?
Question Time is coming on ,followed by This Week and STVs Politics show, there is no end to the treats !!
Truely English , I am Truly Scottish ( I prefer that spelling) Do you consider all those in the world with a common language to be English then ?
Australians , Americans Canadians ? Some may have ancestors who did come from England , but I think you'll find that they DON'T consider themselves as English.
Love the English , as I do , but they are not the same as Welsh ,Irish or Scots.Vive la difference!
264

Independence? Bring it On!,

08/05/2008 22:30:16
#339

"I've read plenty of Scottish independence papers"

Err which ones?
265

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 22:30:52
355. Yesm but he is an Anglo/Scots/ Germanic/ dick
266

,

08/05/2008 22:31:56
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267

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 22:33:14
358. Interesting was it not "Bill" decried the lack of detailed discussion on Scottish independence, then says he has read "lots of papers" about it? Kind of makes you think either his post saying there was not detail about it was a piece of crap, or he is a crap talking dullard aspiring to being an empty, posturing mountebank by means of posting crap? Which is it?
268

SNPfighter101,

08/05/2008 22:33:33
Good on you steve! Asking what England what it thinks about Scotlands fight for independence is akin to asking Germany for its opinion about surrendering Austria. And don't any of you sassanachs DARE to argue about that, we are an occupied country, but a country none the less, and further more I believe in the words of Benjamin Franklin in saying "those that sacrifice freedom for short term security deserve neither freedom nor security" If you have not the courage to stand for Scotland's freedom then go south of the border, I am absoulutely sure the English government take care of you.
269

Truely English,

08/05/2008 22:33:51
How many Russians do you know who are unabe tospeak Russian.

Language is the core of identity and this is why the Scots are Inglis or English whichever spelling you like.
One language, one people, one nation, one identity.

Being British is no longer acceptable or so it seems.
270

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 22:36:11
363. Well said, British is equal to Norwegian or French, and damn those who say it is not! And you rpoint on Inglis or Shingles or Jingle-Bells is well taken, and the damn Canadians need to be brought to heel

271

acanthus,

08/05/2008 22:39:20
Russians? Lots and lots as the country had hundreds of diverse peoples, not all of whom call themselves Russians even though the speak the Language.
Ukraine is another example, all of the people speak Russian but consider themselves Ukranian!

Shall we also talk about Bashkir, Turkmenistan, Tatars, Kazhakstan etc etc etc

Language has nothing to do with the formation of a country especially when you start using ridulous examples like Russia!
272

kirk 1,

08/05/2008 22:39:45
Jeez i just realised Clatty Jamieson is the deputy leader of Slab in Holyrood.
When wendy goes, FMQ'S will have to be in a primetime slot. Asure ratings winner for the beeb.
273

acanthus,

08/05/2008 22:39:54
Incidentally Truely i live in Moscow!
274

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 22:41:11
367. Me too, And Kent and York and Edinburgh and Paris and wherever else this thread goes

275

acanthus,

08/05/2008 22:42:39
No, i DO live in Moscow!
He seems to have as much understanding of Russians as he has of Scots!
276

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 08/05/2008 22:43:29
We will stick to the 2010 date for our referendum, by then undecided voters will have seen the economical viability of an Independent Scotland going on her own, and not having to SUBSIDISE england anymore. Oh nearly forgot, the way the labour party have been acting lately there might not be a labour party left to support a referendum!!!!Keep up the good work Wendy.
277

unbiased,

Erehwon o Elddim 08/05/2008 22:45:48
Hey Spook I luv ya - know your busy (been there, can understand),but can I be your surrogate granny?
278

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/05/2008 22:48:07
363 Truely Stupid

I'm sure many of the millions of Russians who speak these languages don't speak Russian:-

Abaza (in the Karachay-Cherkess Republic)
Adyghe (in the Republic of Adygea)
Altay (in the Altai Republic)
Bashkir (in the Republic of Bashkortostan)
Buryat (in Agin-Buryat Autonomous Okrug and the Buryat Republic])
Chechen (in the Chechen Republic)
Chukchi (in Chukotka Autonomous Okrug)
Chuvash (in the Chuvash Republic)
Erzya (in the Republic of Mordovia)
Ingush (in the Republic of Ingushetia)
Kabardian (in the Kabardino-Balkar Republic and Karachay-Cherkess Republic)
Kalmyk (in the Republic of Kalmykia)
Karachay-Balkar (in the Kabardino-Balkar Republic
Khakas (in the Republic of Khakassia)
Khanty (in Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug)
Komi-Zyrian (in the Komi Republic)
Mansi (in Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug)
Mari (in the Mari El Republic)
Moksha (in the Republic of Mordovia)
Nenets (in Nenets Autonomous Okrug)
Nogai (in the Karachay-Cherkess Republic)[1]
Ossetic (in the Republic of North Ossetia-Alania)
Tatar (in the Republic of Tatarstan)
Tuv?n (in the Tuva Republic)
Udmurt (in the Udmurt Republic)
Yakut (in the Sakha Republic)
Yiddish (in Jewish Autonomous Oblast)

LOL
279

unbiased,

Erehwon o Elddim 08/05/2008 22:52:50
~BODmin - get a life! Who wants to know all the dialects in a diverse Asian conglomerate - and what has that got to do with Scotland?
280

acanthus,

08/05/2008 22:55:10
372:

Ouch!
281

Truely English,

08/05/2008 22:55:21
372
How can people who don't speak Russian be Russian, or people who don't speak English be English. It is jist not possible.
282

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/05/2008 22:55:43
373 unbiased - Read 363
283

acanthus,

08/05/2008 22:58:40

Ms Goldie said: “Who would have thought that a Labour Prime Minister and a Scottish Labour leader would be the SNP’s greatest ally in breaking up Britain?”

Not me Annabel but hey ho such is life!
284

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/05/2008 22:59:39
375 Truely

You used the analogy. Not me.
285

Conan the Librarian™,

08/05/2008 23:00:01
363
Hey Truely meshuggener, is there a wee glitch in your putz?
286

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/05/2008 23:02:43
377 acanthus

Ms Goldie needs watching. Her power will grow as Cameron approaches office of PM. She has already stated publicly that she wouldn't stand in the way of some devolved powers returning to Westminster.
287

Independence? Bring it On!,

08/05/2008 23:03:49
#375 Truely English, my great granny didn't speak English, only Gaelic.

Where is Des Browne?



288

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 23:04:05
372. LOL - oh dear, you have filleted Truely English and made him look like a total crap talker. I wonder if Truely (sic) will be too embarrassed to post again having been made to look like an ignorant pillock?
289

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 23:04:52
381. Under the hair dryer?

290

Conan the Librarian™,

08/05/2008 23:10:22
382
Once his brass neck is brasso'd up again?
291

acanthus,

08/05/2008 23:12:26
380:

I agree but it's hard to see the Tories in Scotland going anywhere. Labour vote certainly not going there, SNP strong and God knows about Nicola's Balmoral Club.

She also has to be careful in defending the undoubted sqeeze that will come upon Scotland and it can't be in her interest to stir it up; after all she will have to take an opinion sometime on Scottish and Westminster issues of contention..tricky for her!
292

cowfreak,

paris 08/05/2008 23:25:57
Hey Truly, yer no' talkin English- yer talkin nonsense... But seriously folks, the reason the SNP want to wait for a referendum is that by 2010 the Tories will likely have ousted Nu Labour in Westminster, which can only improve our chances of Indyhood... (BTW imagine somebody from Fife running GBPLC- doesnae bear thinkin about..)
293

Matt there,

somewhere 08/05/2008 23:26:50
Poor Wendy. Every FMQ is like watching an inept knife juggler who just will not stop using real, sharp knives.

She tosses the knives up into the air and, one-by-one, they fall back down to earth and stick in her.

You can almost image her saying: "No. I'm fine. I just need a bit more practice. Did you see that last knife? I very nearly caught it! Except it landed in my ear..."
294

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 23:28:02
375, Truely, tell that to the Yanks.

What you don't seem to realise is that to continually spout about a common people and yet overlord it on a common language which you call English.

If it is a common language which has spent hundreds of years developing from many languages into a shared tongue why is it called English instead of British?

Is it because, like I mentioned in an earlier post, the English are plagiarists who will steal influence and call it their own?

295

acanthus,

08/05/2008 23:29:57
Salmond really putting the shoe into Labour now and into Westminster..even the English MP's are beginning to crack with one of them stamping his foot and stating 'it's ny Uk'..just gets better and better.

Also in the article it states that Brown agreed to the referendum with Alexander then 'bottled it'..no great surprise there then!

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.2258423.0.Salmond_offers_a_Commons_pact_to_Cameron.php
296

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/05/2008 23:31:23
Just watched the Referendum issue being raised on Q Time. No-one on panel or audience agrees with it, even Labour's James Purnell. Then a comment from the audience...... "If we are one UK, why in Scotland is there free care for the elderly, why are there free medicines in Wales and why do Scottish MPs vote on English matters?" Got a really high clapometer rating, and I got a sense that the folks in England are anything but happy.
297

acanthus,

08/05/2008 23:37:21
I don't blame them!
298

acanthus,

08/05/2008 23:39:50
Also Cameron accusing Broon of 'potentially misleading parliament'....it's game over for Brown, he can't possibly recover from all this.
And so, following Scotland's lead of course, the meltdown in the Labour ranks down south begins!
299

acanthus,

08/05/2008 23:42:28
Remins me of that game at school 'scramble'
300

weh,

08/05/2008 23:42:40
Mikko,
Drumnadrochit, Scotland

Well....Mikko..........and heres me thinking Drum was in Highland region!!

Silly me!!
301

,

08/05/2008 23:46:17
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302

acanthus,

08/05/2008 23:48:20
One Labour MP said the general view at Westminster was Ms Alexander had "probably gone mad".

Malcolm Chisholm's responded that her job was 'absolutely safe' and that all the MP's supported her...

Nice to know the Labour Party is content with a leader that is 'probably mad'!
303

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/05/2008 23:53:03
397, acanthus. I'll agree with that. Mad.

She seems to enjoy getting verbally whipped. Then, I suppose, she turns round and passes it onto her minions.

And all because she loves her 15 minutes of notoriety.
304

Independence? Bring it On!,

08/05/2008 23:53:34
Best headline EVER.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7390109.stm
305

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 09/05/2008 00:00:40
399, Inde? The undeveloped beak reminds me of a Scottish politician's mouth but I can't just quite remember which one (he lied like a Labourite).

I put it to all that in approx 5 minutes the new edition will be online and Angus Ogg will be at No1 with a 2 hour old post.
306

Col. Blimp IV*,

09/05/2008 00:09:27
#400 Jock Tamson

I wonder why he cant manage a #1 on these "stop press"
Wendy is an idiot articles.
307

SNPfighter101,

10/05/2008 01:17:19
Frankly, what I want is the ability to pick and choose who makes our decisions on the international stage as well as at home. As long as we remain Democratic I have no problems, what I do care about is that we are for all that we can say have been cuty out almost entirely from External affairs by the English who to my thinking are still invaders, most of them are fed up with the fight for independence you say? Then GOOD!
308

SNPfighter101,

18/06/2008 18:49:47
Truely English YOU DON'T DARE TO GIVE ME THAT! (yes I have been offline for a while) Just because we speak the same language does not give your kind dominion over us I don't see parliment trying to tell the Americans or the Austrailians what to do! We are two seperate peoples of two seperate origins and you have no right to stay in our country and you know it!

 

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