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Debate goes beyond national borders as opinions flood in



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All this week, The Scotsman has been analysing the democratic imbalance caused by devolution, the so-called West Lothian Question. The response from readers has been extraordinary. This is a selection of the views put forward by Scotsman readers on the issue, from all over the world.
I'd prefer to see the Scottish Parliament scrapped, as it's been a complete waste of time and money so far. Unfortunately, I do not see this happening.

FedUpTaxPayer

Speaking as a citizen of a federal country, the situation in the UK
appears to be what we would have in Canada if, say, Quebec and New Brunswick were the only provinces with a separate legislature and powers; Toronto had its own separate legislature and powers and the rest of the country was run directly from Ottawa. Of course, we do it another way and perhaps it's time that the British did as well.

CanSoc, Toronto

The union of Great Britain reminds me of the Forth Bridge. It's red, it's very old, it's as symbolic of Britain as the Union flag, it's worked for a long time and been very useful to a lot of people, mainly Scots.

But while it seems a bit shooglie, though OK at the moment, it must be time to replace it with a new structure.

qche, Caracas

The WLQ is a load of nonsense, given that England has a Labour majority of about 43 seats anyway. English MPs vote on devolved Scottish issues all the time as part of wider UK legislation.

Fiddler's Ferry, Scalloway, Shetland

An English grand committee is not the solution. This means that if English MPs vote to cut spending on health then the Barnett formula is affected. The same applies if they vote to increase spending on education, so we would still have English MPs deciding how much money is spent in the other countries of the Union. The only fair solutions are independence or federalism.

karin m

Regional assemblies are an attempt by Labour to solve the problem they created with devolution, by dividing England into artificial bite-size chunks.

Sassenach Observer, Edinburgh

Recently, an English MP voiced his concerns that if Scotland froze the council tax it would lead to envy south of the Border. The question then arises, what is our parliament for? If it is only to do as Westminster does, then it is not much of a parliament.

The solutions to the problems are to scrap the parliament, a move which would have little support, or opt for more powers - perhaps involving a federal system - or go for independence. I favour independence because I don't think federalism answers all of the problems.

Gregor Addison, Scotland

If England doesn't like the current arrangement, it could always leave the UK and become independent.

David Perth, Lincoln

Discussed the WLQ last night with English colleagues. They raised a host of points about England being slighted by the government and large organisations, such as:

Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales have their own postage stamps. England doesn't;

• Persistent attempts by politicians - often Scottish Labour - to foist regionalism on England and divide the country;

• Left-wing politicians saying the English flag is a flag of racism, despite the fact that almost every church in England has always flown the English flag;

• British Gas calls itself Scottish Gas in Scotland but British Gas in England;

Tesco labels its milk Scottish milk in Scotland but British milk in England.

Publius, London

The only way forward now is a parliament or assembly for England. This will reduce tensions and blunt nascent English nationalism - and, to a lesser extent, Scottish nationalism - and tidy up and largely complete the devolution process.

Create a de facto federal kingdom, giving the best-of-both-worlds solution for most parts of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and enjoy a large measure of self-rule in the home nation of your, er, home!

Geoff, South Africa

The answer to the WLQ is an English parliament. The answer to the English question is to ask the English because only we can decide how we want to be governed. Of course, we won't be asked because the Establishment don't like the answer.

Toque, England

New Zealand has four million people and survives quite well. It is in the United Nations and the Commonwealth and, while it's not an incredibly rich country, it takes a full part in world affairs. It will never have the political or economic influence of the UK, the US or Russia, but at least we take part. Scotland does not.

People in Scotland may not realise it but, worldwide, the United Kingdom or Britain are just other names for England.

james 1st, New Zealand

While the constitutional question is an issue, I think the perception of the Barnett Formula (England subsidises Scotland) is a much bigger issue underlying the disquiet in England over the constitution.

Alan B

Rifkind-lite may be the answer along with more fiscal powers


COMMENT

AS A concept, we have lived with the West Lothian Question (WLQ) for nearly 30 years. It became a live constitutional issue only with the creation of the Scottish Parliament in 1999 - and a political flashpoint in 2003-4 when government whips relied upon the votes of their Scottish MPs to push through controversial Commons legislation on foundation hospitals and tuition fees that failed to command the support of a majority of English members. The political system did not come tumbling down.

There is, then, a perfectly respectable school of thought that the WLQ does not need to be answered; that the unwritten British constitution is full of such anomalies, most of them dealt with by the traditional means of muddle and fudge. Why not leave things as they are?

This week, The Scotsman has carried a series of articles on the WLQ, exploring the issues and the views of politicians and voters from across the UK. Our inspiration was the suggestion by Sir Malcolm Rifkind, the Tory MP for Kensington and Chelsea, of a "grand committee" comprised only of English MPs to deal with domestic English legislation in areas such as health and education (when a bill was laid before the whole House, Scottish MPs would adopt a self-denying ordinance and abstain).

Sir Malcolm's initiative reignited the constitutional debate, but was itself a response to a growing (yet still minority) clamour in England against the perceived unfairness of letting Scottish MPs vote on issues which do not affect their constituents while denying English MPs a say over these issues north of the Border. (This noisy campaign draws heavily on another, incorrect, perception - that Scotland has a higher level of public expenditure than the rest of the UK, which means Scots get more things for "free".)

Assuming that what constitutes an English-only bill can be agreed upon - no easy matter - Sir Malcolm's scheme would entail the Prime Minister, his Chancellor and other members of the government who sit for Scottish seats refusing themselves a vote on their own legislation, a very odd anomaly indeed. Additionally, were Labour to win a majority of UK seats, but the Tories most English seats at the next general election, the government would need the support of either the Liberal Democrats or the Tories for its domestic legislative programme.

There is another, more fundamental problem, highlighted by the constitutional authority Professor Vernon Bogdanor. The Scottish Parliament is funded by a block grant which is directly dependent on the scale of spending by the government at Westminster.

As Prof Bogdanor says: "The Royal Commission on the Constitution pointed out as long ago as 1973 [that] any issue at Westminster involving expenditure of public money must remain of concern to Scotland, since it affects the level of taxation in Scotland and therefore the amount of money the Scottish Parliament has to spend. This means MPs from Scotland must retain the right to vote on what might seem purely 'English' matters."

This point highlights the need for a comprehensive approach to resolving the WLQ; dealing with voting in isolation would be like bandaging a broken limb.

The Scotsman's view is that the block grant must be abolished and the Scottish Parliament given the power to raise its own taxation revenues in areas over which it has power. Such fiscal autonomy would obviate the need for Scottish MPs to vote on "English" matters in order to preserve funding levels.

That would open the way to a what might be called a Rifkind-lite solution: rather than a grand committee of English-only MPs, a new parliamentary convention could be agreed whereby Scottish MPs abstained from voting on English domestic legislation in much the same way that the SNP's MPs currently do. An exemption from this would have to be made for Cabinet and government ministers.

Under the scenario of the Tories winning a majority of seats in England, Mr Brown might even take a leaf from Alex Salmond's book and form a "minority" administration in England. That really would change the political culture at Westminster.



The full article contains 1514 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 November 2007 10:19 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: The union
 
1

chickenshometoroost,

23/11/2007 01:39:31

It is difficult to see how the proposed "Rifkind-lite solution" would be any different. For example,

"a new parliamentary convention could be agreed whereby Scottish MPs abstained from voting on English domestic legislation in much the same way that the SNP's MPs currently do. An exemption from this would have to be made for Cabinet and government ministers"

If an 'English-only" vote was carried by a Scottish UK cabinet minister it would still be a WLQ situation.

There are only two logical and rational solutions to the WLQ:

(1) Independence for all UK nations
(2) Federalism

A UK-wide constitutional convention is needed sooner rather than later. But do our political elites have the maturity to do this?

2

Ard Righ,

The Rock of Edinburgh 23/11/2007 01:59:37

The South of Britain is where the english occupy.

Britain is the ancient Brythonic name, see Pict and Cymry (Welsh)

The english system can have different ethnicities voting in their parliament and the system will still be english with pro english ideals and an english majority. Always anti-Scotland.

The Monarchical institution is from the Cymry the Gael and Pict. it is currently occupied by Germans, see english.

The issue here is simply for Scotland to Re-gain independence and for the Cymry to take back south Britain.

Then we'l all be happy.

3

Toots - Sheila,

Canada 23/11/2007 02:00:16

Free Scotland now! Scots NEVER voted to be a part of the UK, rather they were sold into economic, social and cultural oppression. (Many Scots were in fact sold into slavery and deported.)

It is time to end the colonial annexing of what was once a proud nation with its own institutions, values and substantial contributions to the betterment of their fellow man.

4

Navvy,

23/11/2007 02:29:30

#2 waffle the Queen is more than half Scottish

Kings and Queens of Scotland have, over the centuries often married outside Scotland.

English kings married Scottish women

Robert the Bruce of recent Norman descent had lands in England in common with many peers in both countries

Why are people fixated on narrow and differing definitions?

5

Navvy,

23/11/2007 02:30:25

Ask the Labour Numpties

Is this another of Blairs well thought through plans the cleaning up of which Brown will fail to do

6

Big Alan,

23/11/2007 02:40:20

Regarding the West Lothian question, 67% of Americans polled said "West Lothia" should be invaded.

7

Rulesbutnotrulers,

A genuine Briton, not an alien Scotti 23/11/2007 06:52:04

As all genuine natives are Britons then a federal solution is THE solution.

8

Guga II,

Rockall 23/11/2007 07:06:14

#9 Unionist Troll. I assume therefore that you are not an Angle, Saxon or Jute.

It was Daniel Defoe, an Englishman, who said that a true born Englishman is but a fiction, then listed their above mentioned origins.

#4 My parrot has more Scottish blood in her than Betty Hanover Saxe-Coburg Gotha, a.k.a. Mrs. Philippos Schleswig-Holstein Soenderburg-Glucksburg.

9

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 23/11/2007 07:09:01

-- New Zealand has four million people and survives quite well. It is in the United Nations and the Commonwealth and, while it's not an incredibly rich country, it takes a full part in world affairs. It will never have the political or economic influence of the UK, the US or Russia, but at least we take part. Scotland does not. People in Scotland may not realise it but, worldwide, the United Kingdom or Britain are just other names for England.

The world is 70% ocean and New Zealand is certainly a leader in modern ship design and contruction. Where Scotland should be, and there are some inklings of this.

NZ is fortunate in having a capable and determined Prime Minister who can state in 2 A4 pages what Government should do, what it is doing, who it represents, and what is none of its business. She doesn't need "spin doctors" or advertising agencies or lawyers the way the UK does things creating reams of piffle devoid of sense.

I voted SNP to represent the working people of Scotland and our concerns for the young - education - and care of the elderly.

Home of the brave, land of the free? We're more the haunt of the neo-feudalist and their supporting eco-facist agenda which I'll never cease battling till they crawl back under a rock where they belong.

I'd make land-owning illegal - at least move in that direction - so that we, the Scots, can live in Scotland and build houses on it for what it costs to build and equip.

I fear, though, that we're living like we're players in some demented soap opera and think that wealth comes from property and financial speculation, bitching and girning, instead of this thing called work.

Sgur Uran !

10

W Smith,

Middle East 23/11/2007 07:12:30

The bottom line is that multi-millionaire Tam Dalyell WILL NOT BE MISSED (just like most Scottish politicians who choose to retire).

He can now spend most of his time caring for his peacocks that saunter around his garden.

The WLQ gives this eejit a profile and recognition he doesn't deserve.

Eton educated Tam's economic plan for oil and gas rich Scotland was based on SUBSIDIES.

A 'solution' dreamed up by economic half-wit socialists who choose to ignore the more savy strategies employed by Ireland, India, and Singapore.

BTW
Dalyell also believed there was no need to send a task force to retake the Falkland Islands as the United Nations would take care of it. Just like they took care of Rwanda and Sudan, eh Tam?

ANYBODY THAT GULLIBLE SHOULD HAVE BEEN BOOTED OUT OF WESTMINSTER YEARS AGO!

11

john z,

23/11/2007 07:13:01

INDEPENDENCE for England. Now.

Problem solved.

Any other questions??

12

Cappo Del Monte,

23/11/2007 07:15:37

the hootsman doesnt analyse anything to do with devolution, SNP or other parties other than liebour, as its a one party unionist rag

13

Conan the Librarian™,

23/11/2007 07:18:44

8
You have me worried now.
There is still some oil underneath all those shale bings...

14

Steve Ev,

Malta 23/11/2007 07:59:00

Is Berwick-upon-Tweed, still for sale ?

15

Hugo, Ayrshire,

23/11/2007 08:44:32

How is the level of funding for the London Assembly decided?

16

Cadgers,

Perth 23/11/2007 09:00:32

I don't want a "Federal" UK. I want an independent Scotland.

17

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 23/11/2007 09:10:03

Steve Ev

No but it's still at war with Russia.

18

Ananurhing,

23/11/2007 09:29:01

11# Yok Finney

Well said re land ownership. I think when you've been away for a while, and seen how other nations operate, then come home and look at our system of land tenure, you have to wonder how can this system continue to exist.
Two thirds of Scotland owned by less than a thousand people? Many of them absentee, some even non domicile, and all of them with their hands in the taxpayers pocket. Beggers belief! Now there would be an issue that a political party could set the heather on fire with. Even in the central belt!
The SNP are strangely quiet on this one. Why?

19

Danish Bird,

Edinburgh 23/11/2007 10:17:31

#13 Agreed! No reason why England shouldn't manage on its own without Scotland - with a bit of practice! ;-)

#11 #20 Ownership of land/property in Denmark - a country comparable to Scotland in terms of no of inhabitants although Scotland has nearly 3 times the landmass - is limited to Danish nationals. There is a minimum residency requirement - 5 years in total - for Danes living overseas. Good thinking, as far as I'm concerned.

20

Spotter,

23/11/2007 10:23:01

doh

independence

answered

its for those who are tying to circle a square to continue:-)

21

,

23/11/2007 10:31:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1167331, Article id was mapped to record!
22

Ard Righ,

The Rock of Independence 23/11/2007 10:34:11

4. Navvy / 2:29am 23 Nov 2007

when you get a chance.......

http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/anonn-is-anall/royalty/

23

Ard Righ,

The Rock of Independence 23/11/2007 10:40:20

21. Danish Bird, Edinburgh / 10:17am 23 Nov 2007

Excellent latter point, one I have raised before.

24

Ard Righ,

The Rock of Independence 23/11/2007 10:48:02

The SNP now need to change the voting system.

Someone who owns many properties can vote many, many times and not even live in Scotland. That needs to be abolished.

The "don't know" or void votes counted in the last election as NO vote !
That also needs to be abolished.

The voters role should be fully isolated from the council/poll tax register, which will liberate voter apathy considerably.

25

Alfie the OK,

Occupied England. 23/11/2007 10:50:34

Do you know what? I am getting heartily sick and fed up with the blue sky thinking going on by the Scottish Establishment - apparently for our benefit.

Scots Labour MP, Ian Davidson suggests a return to English regionalism. Posh Scot Rifkind, after oooh, at least 10 minutes cogitation emerges from the toilet with his little piece of 'back of the envelope' to declare "Grand Committees in our time"... Scottish Prime Minister, Gordon Brown gives us one of his sickly smiles and pretends to go deaf - or, as in this week's PMQs gives a completely inaccurate answer when asked about the Barnett Formula....

Hey, all you bods at the Scotsman, all you 'worried of Dundee' readers, alll you 'concerned for your jobs Scottish politicians' why not campaign for a REFERENDUM to be held in England about OUR constitutional future. Why not ask US what we would like, for a change?

The answer to the English Question will not be found on Malcolm Rifkind's toilet seat, it will not be found behind Gordon Brown's faux smiles, it will not be found in Ian Davidson's selfish streak, it will not be found by a Scots media suggestion of 'Rifkind Lite' - it will only be found by actually asking the population of England what they want.

And talking about The Scotsman. Tell me Mr Editor, during your week long 'special' on analysing the West Lothian Question, did you once, even once go down, south of the border to actually ask the people of England what they actually would like - or have you been too busy canvassing opinion from worried Scottish MPs to be bothered?

26

Ananurhing,

23/11/2007 10:50:45

21# Danish Bird

Very impressive country with simple, sensible legislation to prevent nonsensical situations happening as we have here. We could learn so much from Denmark. How to cook for a start!
Rod grod med flodde! I can even say it!

27

Geoff,

23/11/2007 11:13:09

1 Chickenshometoroost-Precisley! Thats it in a nutshell! It doesnt take a genius to work out what you have articulated so well-that is why for me it is truly frightening that our politicians in Westminster cant/wont see what a cockup the devolution "settlement" has been. The Nationalists have exploited the situation to suit their agenda-I say this as a Unionist without any feeling of ill will towards them-they have been presented manna from heaven by the Westminster Government with which to pursue their goals. The only way the Union can be preserved is with an English Parliament with Westminster returned to its proper role as the Federal Parliament of the Union

28

Geoff,

South Africa 23/11/2007 11:14:37

2 Ard Right-with respect-what a load of rubbish!

29

Jeff, Surrey,

23/11/2007 11:15:24

#23 - Ard Righ -
More racist blurb based on nothing but hate.

The march towards independence for both Scotland and England is now virtually unstoppable. The scottish have valiantly done the donkey work, expect to see the english finish the job.

The pincer movement of the SNP and the tories in England feeding off of each other by promoting the unfairness of the present system, will see Labour and this government increasingly isolated in their unjust and discriminatory system that allows scottish MPs to vote on solely english matters but not vice versa.

It is not sustainable and both countries will go their own ways eventually because the momentum will not stop at sorting out the discriminatory West Lothian question.

30

Ard Righ,

The Rock of Independence 23/11/2007 11:22:50

27. Alfie the OK, Occupied England. / 10:50am 23 Nov 2007

Yes, you do occupy south Britain, unfortunately.
Look at the mess your masters have made you make of it.

The child must be told what is right and what is wrong.

I'll take blue sky thinking with feet firmly planted on the ground every day thanks.
Far better that polluted mooted colapsing imperialism.

31

Ard Righ,

The Rock of Independence 23/11/2007 11:26:52

30. Geoff, South Africa / 11:14am 23 Nov 2007

Don't criticise what you don't understand.

I suppose you think you know about the last 8000 years of the western seabord here ?

if you are a colonial occupier as moniker suggests, a colonial occupier has no right to throw cheap comment around.

32

Ard Righ,

The Rock of Independence 23/11/2007 11:32:59

31. Jeff, Surrey / 11:15am 23 Nov 2007

#23 - Ard Righ -
More racist blurb based on nothing but hate.

An observation based on experience, and I have found this to work admirably.The racist card doesn't work, because post 23 wasn't.

Any way who built the moon ? What do you reckon to Alan Butler? I found some flaws, yet the pendulm method is nearly there, 366 degrees?

33

Alfie the OK,

Occupied England. 23/11/2007 12:16:20

32. Ard Righ, The Rock of Independence / 11:22am 23 Nov 2007.

"Yes, you do occupy south Britain, unfortunately.
Look at the mess your masters have made you make of it."......

And there I was, thinking reasonably intelligent people posted on this thread. My mistake.

34

oder,

scotland 23/11/2007 12:18:47

27. Alfie the OK,

You English just cant get anything done with out them eh!
What does that say about the English political establishment? maybe it would be better if they could dream up something that actually works?
The Barnett Formula is passed by the the British parliment which English Mps vote on! the English dont have a say? then why do they vote on it?


"why not campaign for a REFERENDUM to be held in England about OUR constitutional future. Why not ask US what we would like, for a change?"

why ? need Scots to do that for you to
your sick and fed up? we have to listen to English cr*p on how we are bunch of susidy junkies! and how lucky we are to have the benovolent English helping us ,check Engish history buddy! England does`nt hold on to anything were it cost them money
sad but true!
how did the people of England feel over the 300 year old Westminster Question? were English people pass laws in Scotland regardless of what the Scots opinion was ! ( never heard an Englishman voice their opinion how unfair this system was or English MPs) the Scots had 300 hundred years of this problem the good people of England are now deprived at the hands of the Scots, bad people the Scots are eh!

Occupied England? must be the Pakistani immigrants your talking about picking on another Ethnic minority now?

35

Number 6,

Looking after myself. 23/11/2007 13:00:12

27# Alfred, when maggie brown and the rest of the Labour shower are banished at the next election, assuming your not too scared to put yourselfs back into the hands of an English PM, should we scots be happy to have English mps telling us what to do ?.

Does this whole situation not bring home the futility
of the union ?. Alarming to see that your nation seems incapable of standing up for it's-self. Instead of bleating and hand-wringing, why don't you create an English independence party. Just think no more
scottish mps , no more scottish pms. Come on man, you can look after yourselfs surely. The next election will tell us. Now I can smell something burning so I suggest you get back to the kitchen.

PS hands off our football managers.

36

Lauwrie,

23/11/2007 13:13:08

"That would open the way to a what might be called a Rifkind-lite solution: rather than a grand committee of English-only MPs, a new parliamentary convention could be agreed whereby Scottish MPs abstained from voting on English domestic legislation in much the same way that the SNP's MPs currently do. An exemption from this would have to be made for Cabinet and government ministers. "

You must be bl--dy joking ! More fobbing off of the English with a tampered-with British parliament .

When are you going to get it into your collective heads that the Westminster pariament is the British parliament and is not in any way somehow an English parliament .
It isn't and thats it . It doesn't try to be because its not .

We are long past the stage where the English can be palmed off with any form of committee , grand or anything else , or any rehash of conventions or other tomfool ideas from the British government and its parliament .

What is needed is quite clear . It is a national English parliament for England just like Scotland's . Also an English government , PM , budget and complete internal self rule .

Anf if thats expensive ( it needn't be ) , involves another layer of politicians ( Westminster must be cut back) ,
or England is "too big" then thats just too ------ bad .

37

Ard Righ,

The Rock of Edinburgh 23/11/2007 13:28:42

36. Alfie the OK, Occupied England. / 12:16pm 23 Nov 2007

Ah you don't like the shoe when it is on the other foot.

We don't like the occupation of North Britain by the english system and the poisonous people it brings.

38

Ard Righ,

The Rock of Edinburgh 23/11/2007 13:47:02

I'd rather have a modicum of

Polish
Czech
Slovak
Bulgarian
Basque
Hungarian
Italian
French
Dutch
Swedish
Norwegian
Finnish
Russian
Estonian
Austrian
Grecian
Turkish
Icelandic

any day, as they know to involve themselves in community.

Everywhere I find english in Scotland they destroy fragile communities with their holiday homes, their 'exclusive' 'I must be in charge' invective, their unwillingness to integrate, their phenomenal ability to poison social engagements with their ignorance and arrogance, their pseudo superiority complex, thier coldness, their lack of music, and the belief that are right, always.

Yes there are idiots in all forms of humanity, and it is in the well traveled englishman, knowledgeable of the atrocities of the past which have an institutional bearing on the present, that I enjoy conversation with.

Of course free reign is to be extended to the Irish the Cymry and the Briton.

39

Number 6,

Looking after myself. 23/11/2007 13:51:21

#41 Your not too keen on our English neighbours
are you ?.

40

Danish Bird,

Edinburgh 23/11/2007 13:54:06

I am very upset and annoyed at the 'subsidy junkies' etc etc charges being levelled at my adopted fellow citizens - not to mention the 'thick, criminal, uncivilised Scots' image being constantly portrayed and reinforced - by the English media.
However, those accusations are helping along the eventual break-up of the Union from both sides of the border.
If everyone in favour of independence - in all of the still United Kingdom - actually united and started working towards the same goal it might just change things. Just a suggestion, like...:-)

41

Danish Bird,

Edinburgh 23/11/2007 13:55:08

#41 What happened to the Danish on your list?? :-( Should I take that personally?

42

Geoff,

South africa 23/11/2007 14:07:32

2 ard righ-perhaps the scoti should go back to ireland and leave North britain to its "rightful" owners, the Picts?

43

shivago8,

livingston 23/11/2007 14:18:16

We Scots should have no say in English matters and vice versa

44

The Sprucer,

23/11/2007 14:35:28

A FREE AND UNBRIDLED INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND!

A fully operational parliament run by the people of Scotland for the people of Scotland. Nothing else.

Saor Alba

45

Enigma,

23/11/2007 15:01:04

27

Couldn`t agree more. It is not a question of whether the Scots are more or less heavily subsidised than the English, the point is that if they wish to abolish tuition fees, prescription charges, have free health care for the elderly etc. Then it is their own elected represenratives who decide, not someones elses. In the case of England, it is the UK Parliament, with it`s divided loyalties which has the last, indeed only say. How strange that the Scotsman editorial did not pick up on this.

46

Enigma,

23/11/2007 15:06:16

41

Our `lack of music`? Do explain.

47

Ard Righ,

23/11/2007 16:31:57

44. Danish Bird, Edinburgh / 1:55pm 23 Nov 2007

#41 What happened to the Danish on your list?? :-( Should I take that personally?

Sorry, of course.

It was more to make the point.

48

Ard Righ,

23/11/2007 16:36:26

45. Geoff, South africa / 2:07pm 23 Nov 2007

2 ard righ-perhaps the scoti should go back to ireland and leave North britain to its "rightful" owners, the Picts?

Aye Aye, the pict and the Gael where of the same folk language root. Beside we (Pict an Gael) all used boats and had been going back an forth for Thoooosands of years.

Buana

49

Geoff,

South africa 23/11/2007 16:49:06

10 Guga 11-inasmuch as there is such a thing as "Scottish blood" or "English blood" the current Queen is at least 50%-probably more,Scottish! Which ironically,if one goes back a few centuries,makes her half Irish. Look at the eyes!

50

Geoff,

South africa 23/11/2007 16:50:43

51 Ard Righ-so how do you know if yer Irish or Scottish?

51

Patrick/Edinburgh,

Scottish Civil Defense 23/11/2007 16:57:48

To my self adopted Scottish brothers and sisters
This is a post that I wanted to post to the second 100 days with Alex and the SNP. But the story closed it's comment as I posted. This was the third time a story did this to me. But this story relates too!

Nothing is more important than all of us sticking together to protect each other’s freedom, personal safety and quality of life. From the words of the Declarations of Arbroath on a statue in Baltimore Maryland of William Wallace, was my inspiration to come to this land. Certainly all Scottish can understand the beauty of freedom and the inner spirit inside the heart of the first minister. Who ever would have succeeded in the election would either have to provide a challenge or keep the status quo. While we all shall see what the tests of time my yield us, and what the SNP will be able to achieve. My main concern is the protection of the Scottish people to live their lives as Scotsmen on Scottish soil. Scotland must be protected against murderous acts of terrorism, natural disasters or man made calamities. Scottish Civil Defense must include the unity of the people. The understanding of what civil defense can accomplish must come from the will of the people. The people must not let the government take away their resolve for each other and for Scotland. Please read the words that have developed for Scottish Civil Defense; source www.usnetwork-uk.org.uk

Scottish Civil Defense

The ability and will of the people of
Scotland to provide self protection
prevention from harm
with sustainment and recovery
through developed resources of a
resolved bond of preparedness

52

royal terrace 1980,

Lincoln 23/11/2007 17:03:57

41 ard righ. You appear to enjoy making up silly little lists to impress no one, except yourself. I really do not think you could have met many English people or you would have been able understand us better. We are not all football yobs as you seem to think, indeed many of us have a great Respect for Scotland and it's people and count you as great friends and equals. It really hurts when you condemn us in this general manner when i have spent a life time promoting friendship between our two nations.

53

livilion,

23/11/2007 17:25:12

#4. Navvy #7. Chairman Gordon, UK

Because you tend only to read the history books written by people who share you political opinions.
Which is the pot and which is the kettle?

btw Of recent Norman decent?
The house of Bruce had been in the British Isles since before the Norman Conquest of 1066 etc that was 300 years before the Stuart Dynasty came to power.

54

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 23/11/2007 17:36:45

The article today, Friday 23rd NOV 2007

"We want to get on with doing the job'"
by HAMISH MACDONELL

has had the entire 200 or so comments removed by the Scotsman. Or perhaps it will re-appear ?

Is this another case for independence, when the media with the national name cannot bear truth?

55

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 23/11/2007 17:40:20

55. royal terrace 1980, Lincoln / 5:03pm 23 Nov 2007

Yes there are idiots in all forms of humanity, and it is in the well traveled englishman, knowledgeable of the atrocities of the past which have an institutional bearing on the present, that I enjoy conversation with.

56

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 23/11/2007 17:42:12

53. Geoff, South africa / 4:50pm 23 Nov 2007

51 Ard Righ-so how do you know if yer Irish or Scottish?

Same blood AND the same culture.

57

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 23/11/2007 17:47:48

54. Patrick/Edinburgh, Scottish Civil Defense

The sentiment is good.

I think the scales are a wee bit down on the side of defense in that statement of purpose.

58

Geoff,

South africa 23/11/2007 18:03:50

59 Ard Righ(Is that Gaelic for Hard Right?)
This is probably a silly argument but I am Scots-Irish so claim a link to both lands. If you say"Same blood and same culture" does that mean it doesnt matter whether you call yourself Scots or Irish and moving away from your narrow definition of what constitutes a Scot and seeing that the blood of all humans is the same then I suppose it doesnt matter whether you call yourself English or Scots and what was Eamon de Valera-was he an Irishman and by your logic also a Scot and...I shouldnt allow myself to get sucked into this stuff.
Have a lovely evening.

59

de Hairun,

Aarhus 23/11/2007 18:12:08

The only way forward is for full Scottish independence this way Scotland will no longer be used as a pawn to be trashed in the media by English MPs in order to bolster political support there but used by labour to secure more votes come election time. The union is now reaping the rewards of 300 years of neglect, degredation and the erosion of our own culture, history and values. The only ones who wanted the union in Scotland were the Anglified rich who were paid to betray their own country this is not representative and of dubious legality and it goes against the declaration of Arbroath.

60

New Town Resident,

23/11/2007 18:17:21

When the Romans ruled the native Celts, the British ruled India, or indeed the Waffen SS ruled Eastern Europe, they all employed the classic tactic of the imperialist;

Set up a number of local princelings with token authority and get them to argue and compete with each other while the imperial ruler poses as a sort of higher umpire and rips their people off.

Right now there seems to be an argument between English and Scots over who subsidises who. Its difficult to say exactly but probably the answer is roughly neither. But if you take the extremes argued by both sides its still only a tiny percentage (>2%) of the total tax take.

In the meantime the Imperial power, Brussels, from which 80% of our laws come, takes more of our tax than even the SNP says goes to subsidise the English.

Alex Salmond, PM of an "independent" Scotland in the EU=Maharajah of Hyderabad under the Raj. And very nice it was for the Maharajah too.

61

,

23/11/2007 18:34:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1168865, Article id was mapped to record!
62

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 23/11/2007 18:37:56

I do strongly understand that Scotland should in no way be part of the EU, this is the fundamental misnomer of the SNP's policy.

Declare neutrality and become a tax haven.

63

Geoff,

South africa 23/11/2007 18:42:02

63-interesting post. The case of India always fascinates me. No more than 100 000 Brits held sway over 300 million"natives". Even with 'divide and rule' they must have been brilliant administrators.
62 De Hairun-if only the "Anglified rich" had wanted the Union it would have perished many many years ago.
Scotland used as a pawn to be trashed in the media by English MP's??
Give us a break.

64

Geoff,

South africa 23/11/2007 18:45:51

Ard Righ-let me guess- Siol nan Gaidheal-are you a local luminary?

65

Ard Righ,

The Rock of Edinburgh 23/11/2007 19:06:49

67. Geoff, South africa / 6:45pm 23 Nov 2007


The Celtic Scholars have been making this point (64) for 100 years.

That is part of our history.

There are many groups/bodies who use our history as a starting point.
Finding it in the first place with the shelves of anglocentric propaganda is a quite a task.
Never trust the pen of an englishman is a good start as you know.

66

de Hairun,

Aarhus 23/11/2007 19:08:13

#66
Your disdain for people who want to see a proud and prosperous Scotland has become apparent.
The fact that there was rioting in Scotlands towns and cities at the time clearly has no impact on your analysis of history and use of historical facts not some fanciful "the Scots really wanted to be part of this" drivel I have heard. Treat yourself to a read of the poetry of Robert Burns if you still cling to this notion its fairly contemporary with the time.
Maybe you have no access to the English newspapers might I recommed the any one of the "Daily..." newspapers and you will see articles with lovely language about Scotland and its people and the suggestion last St Andrews day that it should be blown up by a regular columnist is an extreme example of the anti Scottish sentiment.
Do you have any actual connection to Scotland or is annoying Scots just a hobby?

67

WL,

livingston 23/11/2007 19:09:11

The socalled "West Lothian question" is a purely English "problem". All MP's in Westminster should vote on the proposals put forward to them. That includes Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MP's. If these are proposals which would affect only England, or England and Wales or England, Wales and N.Ireland that does not matter.
If you do not like that then you have to change the system, but do not go on moaning. Easiest solution is to give England a Parliament with powers similar to the powers of the Scottish Parliament.

68

Ard Righ,

The Rock of Edinburgh 23/11/2007 19:19:47

69. de Hairun, Aarhus / 7:08pm 23 Nov 2007

Yer man here is a troll, shame, there was a glimer of hope for a second...

but no, imperial colonist to the death.

Geoff -EV- AM2- and all the rest.

Good day.

69

Geoff,

South africa 23/11/2007 19:22:21

de Hairun-strong connection to Scotland!
"Your disdain for people who want to see a proud and prosperous Scotland has become apparent???!!!??? Where do you guys get this stuff??
There is no monolith of opinion in either Scotland or England and neither you nor those who hold similarly extreme views, have a monopoly over what Scotland is or should be. There are many shades of opinion held by the broad Scottish community the world over and you should recognise this and not assume that your view does or should necessarily hold universal sway in Scotland. I respect the views of the SNP and have many Nationalist friends-maybe you should respect the views of those who disagree with you-its an enlightening experience!

70

Geoff,

South africa 23/11/2007 19:26:44

71 Ard Righ- some of you guys are to quick to use the 'troll' label. Its no substitute for lively debate and reasoned argument.

71

de Hairun,

23/11/2007 19:45:45

You were the one showing little respect for the veiws of others. The only 'extremist' view I tend to hold is that Scotland must have the right to choose its own fate not be dictated to by the unionists. I do infact get to hear alot of different opinions on the matter of Scottish independence and treat each by the merit of the argument and the way its presented but try to be respectful in most cases. I have yet to meet a Scot without strong views on independence not always agreeing with my own perspective. In all posts I have ever made it has been my own opinion of what I beleive to be best and will always reiterate that there must be a referendum on the matter. I never claimed to have a monopoly on this and am not in the business of dictating to people something I see as morally unsound at best and un Scottish in the extreme.
Having lived in both Scotland and England I can assure you that there does from my experience appear to be alot of strong opinion in both of these countries. I will always argue that Scotland is a great country with little to be ashamed of and I will never apologise for this.
Perhaps you should take note of what you have directed at me and apply it to your own posts and treat other people on these posts with a bit more respect and a little less contempt.
As I have already said there must be a referendum on the issue to let people choose surely you don't find this suggestion objectionable?

72

Geoff,

South africa 23/11/2007 19:59:05

74 De Hairun-I am and always have been for a referendum although one must be careful not to institutionalise this as a form of government. Notwithstanding my support for such a test, if it went agin Independence would you respect the result as the final say-I would guess probably not. What then? The Uk-Scotland want to avoid surely, at all costs the endless and bitter Canada-Quebec scenario. No matter what happens, you will never please everyone. Personally I favour a federal solution for the UK although I guess this would never satisfy someone with such strong views as yourself. You and Ard Righ seem to harbour incredible bitterness for the sins of our great grandfathers. I look at the USA and wonder how they got over the bitterness of the Civil War. Dont you think that modern scotland-within or without of the Union can and should forget the ills both real and imagined, of years gone by?

73

Ard Righ,

The rock of independence 23/11/2007 20:08:03

It would be reasonable that the Scots have a monopoly on Scotland and imperative to formalise an independent government free of the anti human colonial policies currently practiced by the english system.

74

Ard Righ,

The rock of independence 23/11/2007 20:09:00

Geoff is English Voice, AM2 etc

you sad sad sad individual.

75

,

23/11/2007 20:09:54
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Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1169174, Article id was mapped to record!
76

Ealasaid N,

23/11/2007 20:11:59

Well said 74. When devolution was debated I felt at the time it would lead to independence and it seems I was right. This half way house is no use to anyone. As someone who works in England quite a lot I have to say that the 'aman in the street' takes in all the drivel spouted in the press and instead of saying 'That's a good idea, why can't we have that?' they say 'We don't have it so why should the Scots'. To far too many English people Scotland is under English rule rather than a full partner and in any relationship when one partner exerts power and authority over the other it is an abusive relationship and needs to get out of that relationship.
Why is England in the state it is in? Ask any Englishman and he will tell you it is because the Scots are down there taking all the jobs and houses and running home for free health care and free tuition (never mind the graduate endowment and lower repayment level in Scotland) all paid for by the poor English tax payer.

It is unfair that MPs in Scotland can vote on issues affecting schools in England and not vote on issues involving schools in their own constituencies. Tam Dalyell was right to raise the question and shame on the politicians who pushed through this half baked ill conceived excuse for devolution. They were the people who in their stupidity hastened the cry for independence. I used to say I would never see independence in my life time, now I think by 2014 we will be able to be the free and proud nation that Bruce, Douglas and all the rest fought to bring us.

English people feel they are getting a raw deal but as usual they displace the blame and put it on the Scots.

And to the earlier writer, de Hairun is quite correct, there were riots and a great unrest in Scotland over the Union and the only people who wanted it were the nobles and the Church of Scotland. Bruce, Douglas aand the patriots who brought us independence must have been spinning in their graves when their own

77

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/11/2007 20:13:28

Ard Righ: Can you give a definition of what you consider Scottish? Mine is anyone born and residing in Scotland including the children of wandering English persons.

78

de Hairun,

23/11/2007 20:14:57

I would not be in favour of a referendum if I were only going to disregard it. I would not personally like it but would continue to hold my beleifs as is my right to do. Youre manner of pursuing this issue is to be honest quite offensive you have seen my response and my condemnation of dictatorship and my moral objection to it, yet you still try to pin it on me. Why is this?
I think Scotland should try to better itself and i honestly think is best acheived by independence. If a referendum stated that Scotland wanted to be independent would YOU accept it? The US civil wars was over a clash of ideologies not two separate countries. The Canadian situation is complex in its own way it is not two countries and it never was however there is a massive differnce in origins identity and even language.
You hold strong views yourself and I feel you are being hypocritical in presenting this as if I am the only one.

79

royal terrace 1980,

Lincoln 23/11/2007 20:48:22

72--73--Geoff, How refreshing to hear the views of a none extreme but some one who is concerned about the future of our nations without having to insult their Nationality.

80

Chudleigh,

Devon UK 23/11/2007 20:58:52

Is it not about time that Mr Salmond took advice from Robert Mugabe on how to separate a country from its traditions, culture and economy?

81

erchie,

23/11/2007 21:09:33

totally agree wi yok finney and danish bird regarding land ownership.Alf in so called occupied england you are so wrong, try visiting scotland and see whos buyin up all the decent housing,especially in rural areas,it almost like we scots have no right to be there.

82

Ealasaid N,

23/11/2007 21:14:41

My English friends tell me the one they they admire most about Scots is their passion for their country and their staunch defence of their nationhood. To them, political correctness and having to be all things to all men has resulted in the loss of their identity and their country is foundering as a result. This hasn't happened to us Scots because we are prepared to say enough is enough. This is the Scottish condition and it has stood us in good stead. My granny had a saying for people who did not defend their own country - she said they didn't know "what they were" and were prepared to stand up for "nothing" and in those circumstances nothing was exactly what they deserved. One thing you can say for most Scots (even half English ones like myself) we know who we are, we know what we are and we know what we want for our country. Outsiders can pontificate all they like, but at the end of the day its we 'Scottish' voters who will decide on independence and no one else.

We are all the products of our experience and backrounds. We are not Americans, we are not Canadians, we are Scots. The dynamics that resulted in various historical events throughout the world are usually unique to that country, to that people and - 73 - I am stunned that you think you can use these as validation of our point. yOU are not comparing like with like because frankly, there is no one like us.

83

An Beal Bacht,

Trying to be heard 23/11/2007 21:19:36

Lots of great posts here - well done the High King for holding the enemy at bay.

Scotland is a magical place that is close to disappearing forever. Those of us who know this understand that independence must come soon if we are to save the nation.

The jewish people survived a diaspora of 2,000 years and endured. Many nations, however, have perished or disappeared into the miasma of some imperial construct never to be seen or heard from again.

The nation must declare its sovereignty. None may speak for us but our parliament. Our territory, and resources must be under the nation's control. No Trident - our water, our fish, our oil, our land for our people.

Say no to the U.K.
Say no to the E.U.
Say no to absentee landowners.
Say no to neo-colonials.

Say yes to Scotland.
Say yes to freedom.
Say yes to a future.

84

de Hairun,

23/11/2007 21:20:14

#75
You and Ard Righ seem to harbour incredible bittern