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Salmond warned on call for new powers



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Published Date: 25 June 2008
ALEX Salmond will be warned not to call for more powers for the Scottish Parliament when the body set up to act as a bridge between the devolved administrations and the UK government reconvenes for the first time today.
The first ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will meet Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, and the secretaries of state for the devolved parts of the UK in London.

This will be the first time the joint ministerial committee has met
for six years. It was reconvened to appease Nationalist fears that problems and disputes between the devolved administrations and the Westminster government were not being dealt with properly.

However, a senior Westminster source said Mr Straw would insist that all those involved stuck to the agreed agenda – renewable energy and the Marine Bill.

The source said that Mr Salmond would be told not to raise any wider issues and, if he did, he would be told to present his arguments on more powers for the Scottish Parliament to the Calman Commission instead.

The commission was set up by Labour, the Tories and the Liberal Democrats to examine the case for more powers for the parliament and has been endorsed by both the Scottish and Westminster parliaments.

The source said: "If the SNP don't stick to the agenda then they will get nowhere. There is a process for discussing these wider issues and it's called the Calman Commission and they will have to decide whether they want to bring their concerns up there."

So far, the SNP-led Scottish Government has chosen to champion its own national conversation on independence rather than getting involved with the Calman commission, which does not have a remit to look at independence.





The full article contains 295 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 24 June 2008 10:10 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: The Scottish Parliament
 
1

karinxxx,

25/06/2008 00:18:01
so hamish mcdonnel says

So far, the SNP-led Scottish Government has chosen to champion its own national conversation on independence rather than getting involved with the Calman commission, which does not have a remit to look at independence


When exactly were the snp invited to join the calman commission as far as i was aware they were never invited or asked in any way if they wanted to join.

So this statement by hamish is false.
2

,

25/06/2008 00:19:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
3

karinxxx,

25/06/2008 00:19:30
1. mcpravda aye scottish labour party try this link.

www.scottishlabourparty.org
4

karinxxx,

25/06/2008 00:22:39
3. Your talking nonsense how is a referendum by the scottish people independence by the back door.

How about the lisbon treaty do you think that the labour party should give the people a say on that or are we to get that by the back door?

Which of these is a despots act? asking the people in a referendum (snp) or not asking them (labour)?
5

,

25/06/2008 00:23:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

Highland Mighty,

25/06/2008 00:27:52
I think we can all expect Salmond to do his usual bit of grandstanding with his chest all puffed out.

He's just been humiliated by the long-overdue and much 'recalculated' GERS, which has totally discredited his oft-repeated claims that Scotland doesn't get its fair share of oil duties.

He then humiliated himself by trying to claim an £800m 'surplus' by bizarrely discounting a whopping £4bn in capital spending....we are yet to hear why he thought he could do that.

Anyway, after this major setback in the SNP's ceaseless campaign for 'independence at all costs', he will of course wrap himself in the flag again to bolster support.

That always works on the excitable types, doesn't it Eck.
7

Nikostratos,

25/06/2008 00:31:12
Hamish has just made up this story up that's why he quotes "a senior Westminster source". From what i understand that's one of the bog cleaners who has worked at Westminster for 40 years.

and in a conversation with him he did say "Alex Salmond" and "warning" and "calman commission". It just wasn't in the Order that Hamish has put it.
8

Highland Mighty,

25/06/2008 00:33:07
I look forward to another day of the nats running round in circles 'proving' how Scotland is being ripped off by the nasty old UK.

Yesterday, one of them got himself all tied up in knots and actually demonstrated how Scotland has been receiving multi-billion subsidies for the past 19 years.

Salmond will NOT be pleased with that little slip. How is he meant to get us all to resent each other if his young nats are going to repeatedly show how Scotland benefits from the union?
9

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 25/06/2008 00:39:13
Highland Mighty

You are so boring.
10

Nikostratos,

25/06/2008 00:42:49
Tories at record 20-year high in new Guardian/ICM poll

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jun/24/polls.labour

Just to cheer u Nats up a little
11

Conan the Librarian™,

25/06/2008 00:53:41
11
Thanks Niko, we all know what will happen when a tory government gets in at Westminster, don't we;-)
12

Snuffy Ivy,

Aberdeen UK 25/06/2008 03:48:25
Jack McConnell's by-election demise will provide enough proof of what the Scottish political agenda really is.... Let the people speak at the by-election; and let the routing of Westminster begin! Oh history in the making!
13

Castaway,

25/06/2008 04:05:30
Alex Salmond will be warned etc, I presume by the same senior Westminster source who said Mr Straw would insist...
The same senior Westminster source said that Mr Salmond would be told.
The same senior Westminster source said: "If the SNP don't stick to the agenda then they will get nowhere.
Does this nameless senior Westminster source have a name and does he/she also include the first ministers of Wales and Northern Ireland in the above attributed statements ?
14

donald,

glasgow 25/06/2008 04:17:00
MACDONELL LABOUR'S PET HAMSTER.
15

Orson,

25/06/2008 05:40:36
Alex Salmond is a national embarassment. He can be described as the class clown and a disruptive child at best.
16

Guga II,

Rockall 25/06/2008 05:46:34
This article reads more like a New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party press release which, given the Hootsmon's proclivities, it probably is.

Who do these people think they are, warning our elected government not to raise any issues that the Westminster government do not wish to discuss? Was this statement authorised by Mugabe Broon, the unelected Prime Monster of the YUK?

In any event, this so-called Calman Commission has no legal or official status, it is merely a Unionist cabal which, among other things, has been told not to even consider independence.

As for Highland Blight, he should stick to making his comments in some of the English newspapers, and should be ignored by posters on this site.
17

Orson,

25/06/2008 06:17:29
18 Guga

It was the Nationalists who requested this body be reserected. The UK Government at Westminster has been grown up and mature about it by granting the SNP their wish. It comes with the caveat that Alex Salmond and the SNP better not just be wasting people's time with more friction generating bluff and bluster.

I think that is fair of them. We all know Salmond is a petulant little tolley who seeks to destroy things and have vaccious ants for perceived political gain amongst the teenage angst crowd that forms the SNP hardcore.

Salmond is a joke, he has been accomodated with his requests (as always) and will no doubt abuse the opportunity to try and play the victim.
18

Guga II,

Rockall 25/06/2008 06:47:07
#19 Orson.

You sound like a Unionist troll. Did you write this press release which the Hootsmon has published as an article?
19

Orson,

25/06/2008 06:53:54
20 Guga

No, just stating some facts of the matter.

The SNP requested this.

They were granted that request.

They have justly deserved a reputation of using these things to stir unrest and as such have been politely asked not to waste people's time.

I think that's fair enough.

You sound more like a troll than me. I don't see how the SNP can play the victim here, someone should read Salmond the story about the boy who cried wolf.
20

Jimmy the Pie,

25/06/2008 07:15:33
Highland Mighty/British Pride/Orson.

Good morning, how are you getting on???

Have you recovered from your identity crisis???

I was wondering if you have a copy of a book called Halls Of Infamy??

It is an everyday story of greed, avarice, sleaze and corruption by a city council.
I have forgotten which party is involved in all this double dealing and criminality.
Would you know???

It's important that we have the facts as there is going to be a by-election soon in the West of Scotland
21

eric,

25/06/2008 07:28:15
Labour are in turmoil.It doesnt matter what they say or do.Its like watching a spoilt child trying to get its way.Very amusing.
22

,

25/06/2008 07:28:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
23

LEAL,

25/06/2008 07:31:26
Why wont the London government give control of Scottish elections to Holyrood? Why wont the Calman commission come to my home town to hear what the people have to say? FEAR
24

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/06/2008 07:32:21
2.
Perhaps the most hilarious post for a while; the SNP aren't involved in the Calman commission because they weren't 'invited'. So they sit in their bedroom sobbing like a spotty teeneager, nobody's friend and not invited to the party...again.
What it does is show how effective the SNP propaganda is and how gullible their supporters are. This poor lassie actually believes the SNP aren't involved because the other parties are shunning them, you couldn't make this up.
22.
Jimmy keep going negative, you know how successful that was for Labour...
25

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 25/06/2008 07:33:09
The last remaining redcoat writes:-
“someone should read Salmond the story about the boy who cried wolf”.

I wonder if we can think of anyone suitable to read him such a story?

How about yon intellectual giant with the good moral compass we used to read about some time ago?

You know the one, name escapes me now, but she became famous for being the girl who cried “hungry caterpillar”!
26

LEAL,

25/06/2008 07:33:13
24

Salmond likes Scotland.
27

LEAL,

25/06/2008 07:35:45
24
Ayrshire Scot.

Do you mean Scotland is like a disease?
28

,

25/06/2008 07:37:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

Guga II,

Rockall 25/06/2008 07:39:26
#24 Is a troll. Notice the "?" after the name.
30

Orson,

25/06/2008 07:52:51
Not only does Salmond crow-bar trite Scottish words into virtually every sentence, I think there is also a competition amongst the SNP minister to see who can sound the most Scottish.

I'm being serious! Listen to them r-r-rattle their "r"s and r-r-roll the wor-r-rds around there mouths. Only failed American tv soap actors can Mur-r-rder-r-r the Scottish accent as badly.

Listen to them all talk, I promise you they all ham it up, the sub-text is always listen to my Scottish accent, it's the most Scottishest here and that means I am more Scottish than you.

Dead funny. The SNP's teenage angst and gesture politics fills the vaccious insecurities of empty minds. Were aw innit the 'gether-r-r.
31

john z,

edinburgh 25/06/2008 07:53:22
Usual Labour spin. It's called 'setting the agenda', often used by Blair, as a press run up to a forthcoming meeting. It is a PR tool used to pre-dictate the type of coverage a forthcoming meeting will get.

My opinion, Alex should tell mr Straw to 'f' off and mind his own business. Alex has a democratic mandate from the people of Scotland, Jack Straw does not.
32

John S,

25/06/2008 07:55:55
I wonder how many of the 664,227 who voted SNP (32.9% of the total votes cast) in the 2007 Scottish election will be invited to give evidence to the Calman commission ?
33

john z,

edinburgh 25/06/2008 07:56:33
Number 32

I've watched alex Salmond all my adult life, and he hasn't changed his accent at all. What you have written is utter piffle.

Jackie Baillie from Labour, however, just over a year ago, she sounded really rough, now she talks just like the Queen. Too posh for her own good, and her own constituents. Fake? Hmm I think so.
34

Orson,

25/06/2008 08:01:26
35 John Z

LOL :)

Yes, I agree it's not just the SNP hamming their accents up, Jackie Baillie's is just as funny. That mad bitch needs to get a grip.

But Salmond and Co (MacAskal/Alex Neil the worst) really do ham it up when they talk as if to say to each other I am the more Scottish than anyone.
35

Orson,

25/06/2008 08:33:15
37 Bob Christie

Straw told Salmond that he should report his proposals (if any) for more powers to the McCalman commission, he did not say to report there to "discuss problems" as you put it. That would be absurd.

Straw knows Salmond is a time-wasting buffoon who likes to grandstand and has asked him politely to stick to the agreed agenda for the meeting.

This is exactly how you would expect an office manager or other administrator to behave to have productive meetings.

What is the SNP's problem, everyone is aware that Slamond's grandiose buffoonery and muck slinging for the galleries is counter-productive.
36

Orson,

25/06/2008 08:39:29
Every office or administrative department has one of these clowns.

We have all cringed and tried to hide our disgust in meetings when some jumped up moron tries to hijack the meeting with their own hidden agendas.

It is embarassing that Alex Salmond's behaviour is no so bad that it warrants, quite rightfully, a verbal warning before the meeting starts.

It is embarassing that Alex Salmond doesn't have the decorum and professionalism to even conduct a simple meeting. His childish behaviour is embarassing to Scotland, and even SNP voters must be glad that there is someone there to "manage him closely" if that is still the workplace termonology for dealing with problem employees who can;t even have a simple meeting without help.
37

Orson,

25/06/2008 08:58:03
40

Like I recognised earlier, there are people in the galleries like you who find trouble-making and name calling funny. Salmond can be a funny guy, he's entertaining somtimes sure, but Scotland doesn't need or want a court jester for First Minister.

It really is appauling he let his standards fall so low as to have to be warned not to sabotage meetings/process of government publically before they begin.

How embarassing for him, for us all!
38

subrosa,

25/06/2008 09:15:35
# 19 'It was the Nationalists who requested this body be reserected. The UK Government at Westminster has been grown up and mature about it by granting the SNP their wish.'

You're right it was the Nationalists. Your second sentence is quite incorrect. The UK government have done everything to stall this body happening. It could have been resurrected within 2 months of Mr Salmond's request. As it is it's nearly a year we've waited and that's because the UK government have had to be brought kicking and screaming to the table.

They're still kicking and screaming by the sound of it. According to Fraser's bog in the Herald Simon Pia popped by his office yesterday. Wonder if the same Simon Pia popped by the Scotsman also to hand in this labour press release?
39

brownlie,

25/06/2008 09:15:57
41 Orson

I've noticed that, since the SNP were elected as the Government, that standards in basic English(spelling, grammar etc) have dropped alarmingly.

Have you noticed this?
40

John S,

25/06/2008 09:17:49
The Scottish Government (including our FM) and Parliament have the unquestionable right, and indeed duty, to express themselves on any issue that concerns the welfare of the people and land of Scotland, and to make representations where such are required.

41

JohnMcDonald,

London 25/06/2008 09:18:18
Reading some of the comments above about Alex Salmond beggars belief. Salmond puts on an accent; Salmond is a petulant schoolboy; Salmond shouldn't get above his station; Salmond is an embarrassment; Salmond is... add your own gratuitous insult.

"People pay for what they do, and the pay for it very simply - by the lives they lead" so said James Baldwin.

It appears quite a few of the writers above lead quite miserable lives.


42

Orson,

25/06/2008 09:20:29
43 Brownlie

You are speaking as someone who has ommitted the propper use of a capital letter at the start of their name, so I am surprised you feel confident in raising the subject.
43

subrosa,

25/06/2008 09:20:41
#39

May I suggest Milk or Magnesia for your bitterness problem. Old fashioned remedy right enough but will stop your bile and reflux problems.
44

subrosa,

25/06/2008 09:26:05
# 43

Indeed it appears that is the case. Of course that's the result of years of being ruled by labour here in Scotland. I can't understand why there are bad spellers these days. I thought most computers had spellcheck of some kind. As for grammar, well you can't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear they say.
45

Orson,

25/06/2008 09:28:46
47

I don't understand the personal insults and bitterness.

I am merely commenting that it is humiliating and embarassing that the First Minister's, Alex Salmond, behaviour has become so intolerable to his colleagues that he needs to be publically and verbally warned prior to meetings to not deliberately sabotage them for personal gain.

I think that is a fair comment.

Alex Salmond is not in opposition any more, so shouting and screaming and causing media storms and conflict should be kept to a bare minimum. But he continues to behave like a class clown because he like the attention from the galleries.

All these personal insults in return, I'm guessing you are in Salmond's family or something.
46

brownlie,

25/06/2008 09:33:55
46 Orson

Well spotted - (Oh, would some power the giftie gie us - not in a Scottish accent).

Sorry but the Scotsman would not allow me to use Brownlie with a capital as some lucky person had grabbed that monicker before me.
47

dude,

wishaw 25/06/2008 09:38:53
Orson

Alex Salmond is respected thru the Uk political system, he has won awards, he is looked on by English MPs as someone who has done a fantastic job the last year.

So you hate Alex Salmond big deal, but he is standing up for Scotland, the only cringe about this is the fact that the previous lab/lib's didnt and now that someone is you people dont say, good on you for sticking up for our country, but what a creep, same old Scottish cringe.

Have some pride in your country and get behind our representatives to do the right thing for once,
48

Guga II,

Rockall 25/06/2008 09:39:29
#49 Arseon.

It may be embarrassing to you, as you are obviously not Scottish. Though, on the very improbable chance that you actually have any Scottish blood in you, your stupid personal insults about wee Eck are, in reality, an embarrassment to yourself.

However, I think you are suffering from an identity crisis. That's what comes of posting under so many troll names.

49

puskas,

East kilbride 25/06/2008 09:40:09
Orson who in your opinion in the liebour ranks would you suggest as first minister.
50

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 25/06/2008 09:41:36
The puerile anonymous ad hominem abuse of our First Minister that passes for comment in much of the above reflects the increasing frustration and desperation of a dying Labour Party.
Having lost all of the values of their founders, having produced in their fifty years of political power in Scotland high levels of crime, drug and alcohol addiction, deprivation and low life expectancy, having supported the catastrophic war in Iraq, they bite their knuckles in frustration at the re-energised Scotland produced in only a year by the SNP government.
I have a message of hope for them - get out from behind your ludicrous pseudonyms and join in building a new Scotland - stop cringing and pulling your forelocks to Westminster and the old, unreconstructed unionist establishment - and stop abusing the one major politician of stature and principle on the Scottish scene since the death of Robin Cook.
51

puskas,

East kilbride 25/06/2008 09:42:22
Orson what is your opinion on Jack McConnells reign?
52

Orson,

25/06/2008 09:46:09
Why the torrent abuse on Labour now?

I'm quite sure Alex Salmond would seek to infuriate any Westminster MP who was part of the UK government. And as such, I think regretably most MP's would feel the need to give Alex Salmond a verbal warning about coming the kent with everyone in meetings.

It really is humiliating for him and the SNP. His behaviour has gotten worse and worse, if he were a toddler you'd tell people to ignore him and stop encouraging him, but the media love an attention seeking clown.
53

dude,

wishaw 25/06/2008 09:46:17
Also do you really for one minute think that by telling AS off before the meeting is a rebuke, they are running scared of oor Alex.

The westminster Gov is on its last legs why should he do what hes told by a doomed administation, he is sticking up for Scotland, that is the whole point of these meetings, to be told not to say anything that does not tie in with what westminster wants to talk about is nonsense, whats the point of these meetings if the seperate devolved administations cant flag up problems.

That is also the problem with calman, a gagged and discredited exercise that next to no one is taking serious, the only serious constitutional argument will be settled in the referendum in 2010.
54

Nikostratos,

25/06/2008 09:49:51

I do believe they got the idea for how Alex should attend the meeting from here.



http://www.magazine.org/editorial/40-40-covers/21.jpg
55

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 09:49:59
9 AM2 etc

Oh do tell I am always interested in your impartial sources for your many claims on what the SNP said and done and how they always admit to Scotland being subsidised. Do explain again how the total given by the Barnett formula is billions more than the UK treasury takes from Scotland in Taxation, oil revenues, tourist spending, whiskey and textile sales?
Please feel free to provide as much detail as possible and dont forget to conclude with the final overall sums.
56

Orson,

25/06/2008 09:52:10
57 Dude

Maybe you haven't been to a meeting before?

Alex Salmond is not being told only to talk about what "Westminster" wants. He is being to told to "stick to the agenda" of the meeting, during the meeting.

Agendas for meetings are circulated, amended and agreed before hand. Having to remind a newly recruited high school graduate about how a meeting should be run is acceptable, but having to remind a First Minister of Scotland. Humiliating, Alex Salmond has shown himself to be utterly unprofessional, this is pathetic.
57

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 09:52:50
6

Are you referring to the needed referendum on the Lisbon treaty or the already planned referendum on Scottish Independence?
58

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 09:54:25
60

Who apart from Hamish McDonnell and the treasury are claiming the agenda was agreed before hand by the SNP?
59

puskas,

East kilbride 25/06/2008 09:57:00
Peter Curran...


Very good advice towards the lessening band of a sad disoriented people.
Tragic that the education system failed to recognise Scotland and its people as a nation.

Sadly I suggest that when Scotland is Independent we may need re-education courses to generate faith amongst the illiterate. "A La South Vietnam"

The Internet of course is an outlet towards the process of truth and untruths that the Nationalists gain much from.
Unionism is gradually losing each day as the Scots, and yes voters from other nations now settled in our country ( English etc. ) lead towards an independent nation.
Still work to be done sadly in the most impoverished and uneducated areas. The debate has to be taken into the public domains and won. I say sadly again as you will find these are the areas predomantly Liebour.


60

Jambo Number 1,

25/06/2008 09:58:23
I might toddle off to Motherwell and assist the SNP campaign.

A Big placard of Jackie Baillie - a close up of her face and as many of her chins as I can fit on.

"Jackie says vote Labour or I'll eat yer babies"

#60 - I have been to many "meetings" and aside from the agenda there is always the opportunity for us to discuss OTHER BUSINESS - the Westminster clowns, Straw in particular know that Alex would savage them and rightly so.
61

Orson,

25/06/2008 10:07:03
64 Jambo

"Alex would 'savage' them"

Isn't that just the point, barbaric thuggery and savagery have no place in the modern world. That is why Straw had to remind your "savage" leader of the importance of orderly meetings.

Savaging people to get your own way is a bit pathetic. I'm surprised you support Salmond's "savage" tactics in sabotaging meetings. Does AS have a behavioural disorder? There must be some reason for his continued "savagery".
62

Jambo Number 1,

25/06/2008 10:13:26
#65

Are you some kind of Political wimp, a North American perhaps?
63

puskas,

East kilbride 25/06/2008 10:18:10
No65..

I mention the Middle East.."Barbaric, thuggery, Savage"

When you mention these words that is what came to my mind.

Include lies, deceit used by Westminster in what I suggest to you is probably of all crimes going to War the worst.
Please settle down and base debate on fact not fiction.. Prove you are not Wendy Bendies scriptwriter. In open debate I worry for you, please up the anti from 0-10. If you reach 1 on this topic or any other the comment board participents will feel it to be a bonus.
64

subrosa,

25/06/2008 10:20:21
#49

You can't understand my comment? Well really that's not my problem but perhaps one of your basic education. I'm not in the least bitter. Actually I find your descriptions of Mr Salmond most amusing - totally ridiculous right enough but funny all the same. Who is writing your script? Do tell because I can recommend a good college for basic English.


65

Miss H,

25/06/2008 10:37:12
5 labour are not offering a referendum now. Where did you get that from?

66

Highland Mighty,

25/06/2008 10:38:46
62.Nat: "A Big placard of Jackie Baillie - a close up of her face and as many of her chins as I can fit on."

Meanwhile, a snapshot of the....er, svelte 'Wee' Eck:
http://tinyurl.com/4hupe2

Have another bag of chips there, Alex. Go on, you deserve it.
67

Alan B,

25/06/2008 10:44:25
Labour just sink lower and lower.

The idea of this forum is to try to resolve disputes and discuss issues.

By having all the 4 parliaments/assemblies represented a dispute between westminster and the sp can be refereed to some extent by the other 2 parliaments.

We have seen labour in westminster act in a dreadful way towards the scottish government and treating scotland with contempt.

It makes sense if agreement can be reached between the other devolved administrations on issues of contention that they can jointly put pressure on westminster government to sort out the problem.

So far we have seen:
- westminster threaten to withhold scotlands share of council tax rebate
- westminster withhold money from scotland with the introduction of free personal care.
- westminster refuse to help give info to sp to introduce free personal care. (both these had a labour government in scotland).
- westminste refuse to implement its own report into the mess of the election. refusing for no apparent reason to give control of running the scottish election to the sp.

This whole forum only got of the ground as salmond ran rings round brown by getting support from the other devolved parliaments/assemblies.

68

Jambo Number 1,

25/06/2008 10:45:33
#69

Are you being serious?

Are you actually trying to compare the stature of Alex and Baillie?

LOL LOL LOL

Please don't make ME post you a picture of her - I've just had elevenses.
69

Highland Mighty,

25/06/2008 10:47:27
Has Salmond yet explained why he removed a whopping £4bn of spending from the accounts so he could claim a £800m 'surplus'?

70

Alan B,

25/06/2008 10:51:13
Other areas of contention between labour at westminster and the snp government include:

- the snp justice minister in charge of scottish policing wanting to control the number of policemen in a police car.

He seemingly wrote to the labour uk transport minister but was refused.

- transmission charging issue for electricity.

While the scottish government have different policies for renewables to down sout (both labour and now snp), westminster controls the charging structure.

The charging structure introduced by westminster is a block on encouraging renewables in scotland.
71

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 10:54:11
72

Why dont you do it now? and dont forget the evidence.
72

Highland Mighty,

25/06/2008 10:54:48
73. Having trawled through GERS for any acknowledgment of these missing billions, all I can find is this small paragraph:

"In 2006-07, the estimated net fiscal balance, in Scotland, that is the estimated current budget balance plus estimated net capital investment, was a deficit of £10.2 billion (9.7 per cent of GDP) excluding North Sea revenue, a deficit of £9.4 billion (8.8 per cent of GDP) including a per capita share of North Sea revenue or a deficit of £2.7 billion (2.1 per cent of GDP) including an estimated geographical share of North Sea revenue."

Any chance Salmond could keep his word (for once - police numbers, class sizes, student debt, road improvements etc.) and actually produce full details of public revenue and expenditure that doesn't miss out 12% of the total?!
73

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 11:05:25
75 AM2 etc.

Same sourse that gave us Immigration figures? unemployment figures? inflation figures? NS oil revenue figures? Have they ever managed to get anything right either deliberately or not?
Not to my knowledge. The latest lie is to tell us personal debt is only 1.5 trillion when the real figure is closer to over 2.1 trillion.
But what else can we expect from a troll?
Better cut and save this post as no doubt you will post that cr*p a few more times yet eh?
74

Highland Mighty,

25/06/2008 11:07:16
This is really proof from the horse's mouth that the SNP relies very heavily indeed on a highly volatile income stream from the North Sea to prop up its books.

Only yesterday, one of Salmond's young nats provided clear evidence that, for the past 19 years, the UK has been propping up our bloated public sector to the tune of billions a year, providing stability and security to govt spending during periods of massively fluctuating income.

Yet Salmond will have us all believe that now is the time for us go it alone and place our economic well-being on the hope that oil stays at current prices!
75

John S,

25/06/2008 11:11:14
Joint Ministerial Committees
The Joint Ministerial Committee (JMC) is a forum whereby the UK Government and the Devolved Administrations can meet and discuss matters relating to devolution. The terms of reference of the JMC is outlined in the Memorandum of Understanding and include:
To consider non-devolved matters which impinge on devolved responsibilities, and devolved matters which impinge on non-devolved responsibilities.
Where the UK Government and the devolved administrations so agree, to consider devolved matters if it is beneficial to discuss their respective treatment in the different parts of the United Kingdom.
To keep the arrangements for liaison between the UK Government and the devolved administrations under review.
To consider disputes between the administrations.
76

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 11:11:52
77

And the UK government doesnt? 12% of GDP comes from NS oil and Gas resourses.
And you would have us believe any sh8te put out by a political party which gave us cash for honours, WMDs in Iraq, illegal Saudi Arms deals, a torrent of expense fraud claims, illegal party fund raising and cybertrolling on newspaper blogs.
AS looks whiter and white in comparrison.
77

Alan B,

25/06/2008 11:15:53
#Highland Mighty

U really do not understand the economic arguments for independence. It is not based on oil. Oil as a resource just shows what we have squandered as we have performed worse that those without such an economic goldmine.

Scotland in the union in the last 30yrs has performed badly economically. Growth has averaged less that 2%. That is simply not very good.

Scotland has performed in relative terms worse than the uk as a whole and the uk has grown at rates less than the small western european countries known as the arc of prosperity.

The lie that small countries cannot perform well economically has been shown by the fact that

Luxembourg, Norway, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium

all have a higher gdp ppp per capita.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Why has brown failed to address any north south divide?
Do u honestly think the tories if they get in will improve scotland economically?

The fact is in british terms scotland does not matter. That is why national news will ignore recessions when they only apply to scotland and tell us we are booming.
78

John S,

25/06/2008 11:17:13
Cabinet Office-19 June 2008-CAB/065/08
The Joint Ministerial Committee involving the UK Government and the devolved administrations is having a plenary meeting on Wednesday 25 June 2008.
The Committee, meeting in London, will discuss how to meet the UK's fair share of the European Union's 2020 renewable energy target. Ministers will also discuss the UK Government's draft marine bill as well as having the opportunity to discuss broader relations between the UK Government and the devolved administrations.
http://tinyurl.com/5qhuht
79

Alan B,

25/06/2008 11:17:20
sorry should have said

Luxembourg, Norway, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium

all have a higher gdp ppp per capita than the UK aswell as the other larger eu countries.
80

Highland Mighty,

25/06/2008 11:19:58
76/79. I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and infer that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Or indeed what anyone is talking about.



81

Carmichael, A.,

Scotland 25/06/2008 11:22:30
There's an interesting aspect to these discussions that has gone unspoken. Not too long ago an unnamed Westminster source described discussions between Holyrood and Westminster as not being a relation of equals. Of course it's not because of devolution, yes, yes, we get that, but I remember Murphy, the Labour Westminster Minister conducting the discussions, being livid that someone spoke so truthfully. In other words, 'for god's sake man, don't say something, say nothing,' especially if it's the truth.

The thing that really needs to be justified is why people in Scotland's government should remain in such a lowly position. The thing that Labour in Scotland need to justify is why Scotland's focus and political horizon should be all but Westminster with nothing to be beyond.

I don't think it is tenable in the long-term for people in Scotland's government's external relations to be so narrowly limited to Westminster and take place in such a position of disadvantage. A relation of equals, not only with our neighbours, but with the rest of the world is what is required for Scotland to progress politically. That is what Labour want to remain unsaid and that is why, I think, their limited ideas for Scotland will remain untenable because saying nothing, justifies nothing.
82

Alan B,

25/06/2008 11:22:38
#Highland Mighty

Just a reminder to u about the effect of monetary policy on the scottish economy.

Eddie George the governor of the Bank of England after raising interest rates said unemployment in the north was a price worth paying to control inflation in the south.

Anyone with any clue about economics will tell u the euro while not being perfect has a monetary policy much more inline with scottish economic needs than sterling.

For sterling to work for scotland we would need a government in the uk to address the north south divide or/and control the growth of aggregate demand in the south to allow lower interest rates for the north.

It aint going to happen.
83

Highland Mighty,

25/06/2008 11:24:43
80. Using the SNP's very own figures, a THIRD of public spending would be paid for by oil duties:

"the estimated net fiscal balance...was a deficit of £10.2 billion excluding North Sea revenue."

Even with oil, the deficit was still £2.7bn.

To rely on such an unstable stream of income for such a large amount of spending is....well, clinically insane.
84

Alan B,

25/06/2008 11:32:15
#Highland Mighty

To remain in a union that is failing scotland ecnomically so badly within the union is "clinically insane".

I know u support the union. Fair enough. But in economic terms it is not working.

The union line seems to be we are not doing very well so lets not change anything. ie a union at any price.

The independence line is we can do alot better.

The problem with the union is its inflexibility. U would be far better putting your energies into trying to reform the uk so that it does work for scotland.

The unionist in scotland have backed themselves into a corner. They cannot critise the union as it will play into the hands of the snp. But they end up defending something that simply does not work.

The best way to grow tax revenues is higher economic growth. The problem for scotland is low growth.

I believe that the euro would be much better for scotland economically. Do u think there is any chance of a unionist party in the sp saying ok, lets have an independent economic assessment of the effects of the euro to scotland.

We cannot even have the discussion.
85

Highland Mighty,

25/06/2008 11:33:17
85. You clearly have no idea about monetary policy so try not to lecture others on it. Just becuase Euro levels are lower now is no guarantee that they will be in the future.

For starters. Euro interest rates are different to ours as they have different inflationary pressures, different unemployment levels, are at a different stage of the economic cycle, have far lower growth levels (both trend and actual).....I could really go on about monetary policy factors but maybe you need to read a book on the matter. And no, Wikipedia most certainly does not count.

Furthermore, to complain the the BoE does not give due consideration to Scottish needs but the ECB will, considering it covers a population of 400m, an economy of many trillions and which bases its rates on the needs of the economic centre of Germany/France/Italy, is nonsensical.
86

Alan B,

25/06/2008 11:36:47
#Highland Mighty

Serious question.

If u thought scotland would be better of independent would u still want to remain within the union.

For me if scotland was growing quickly and doing well, i would say we should remain in the union and reform it.

I get the feeling that you are for the union before the well being of scotlands economy.
87

The Spook in Leith,

25/06/2008 11:41:30
Okay im not on for long today , things to do, people to see and the small mater of waiting for the postman with very important results...

Now some Highland Myths...

Figures from PESA and Oxford Economics

Myth 2: English taxes pay for Scotland's high spending
Fact: Tax haul from Scotland £49bn, compared with total spending of £49.2bn.


Includes the North Sea revenues of £9.7bn for 2005-06 at a time when Brent crude was trading at as much as $50 per barrel. Today it is more than $90.

Scots corporation tax runs slightly above the national per-capita average, at £3.51bn in total.

So where is Scotland in a league table of contributors to the national UK coffers? Only Londoners contribute more, per capita.
London £10,947 per head
Scotland £9593 per head
88

The Spook in Leith,

25/06/2008 11:41:37
Myth 3: Scots take more from the welfare state than anyone else
Fact:
North-east England average at £3284
Northern Ireland - £3256 per head
Wales - £3136.
Scotland - £3086
North-west England - £3066
London - £2876,
England - £2736.
State pensions in Scotland amounted to £4.7bn, against £46.4bn in England.

Myth 4: Scots enjoy far better public services than the English
Fact:
Net gain for north-west of England, £1732 per head, is 45 times higher than the modest £38 each Scot, according to Oxford Economics, gains from the rest of the UK.
Oddly, some of the multi-billion-pound investments in England, especially the south-east, seem to be forgotten. Crossrail, the scheme to improve commuter services to and across London, will cost an estimated £15bn.
89

The Spook in Leith,

25/06/2008 11:41:54
Myth 5: Scottish ministers and the public sector hand big ticket' projects to Scotland
Fact:
The Scottish Parliament cost £414 million, but it's up and running and doing the job it was built for. The Millennium Dome closed, unloved, after £603m of lottery cash, £200m of it in rescue grants and top-ups.
London Olympics. The official budget is running at £9.3bn.
Lottery funds, of course, are not included in the distribution of government money. Neither is the way the BBC spends its licence fee.

90

The Spook in Leith,

25/06/2008 11:43:29
And as i said last night.. Westminster figures are historically wrong and overestimate expenditure. The way they calculate non-identifiable spend, for example, doesn't reflect where the money is spent.

It is a funny old world in Highland Mighty./AM2 la la land
91

Alan B,

25/06/2008 11:44:41
#Highland Mighty

"Just becuase Euro levels are lower now is no guarantee that they will be in the future."

If u actually looked at interest rates within the euro since it started and also look at interest rates for the main european countries ie germany they have mainly been lower than the UK.

This has alot to do with the south east housing market. (It was also made worse by Mirus which thankfully has been done away with).

"have far lower growth levels (both trend and actual)."

u are thinking about the uk not scotland. that is ur problem u look about what is good for the uk not scotland.

"complain the the BoE does not give due consideration to Scottish needs but the ECB will"
was not actually complaining, just point something out to u.

We have been through this before on a different thread. I do not think the ECB will take scotlands needs into consideration. It will set interest rates according to the euro zone.

What i am saying is if u look at scotlands interest rate needs over the last 30yrs we are much closer to eu interest rates levels than sterling ones.

Ur main problem is u try to fit every economic argument into ur political view and not the other way round.

U also ignored my important issue. Given that labour in scotland the lib dems both support the euro as being in scotland interests. Why do they not call for an independent economic assessment of the effects of the euro to the scottish economy.

92

The Spook in Leith,

25/06/2008 11:44:43
Oops i missed out Myth 1

Myth 1: Scots get more public cash
Fact:
Northern Ireland £10,271 per head (understandable)
London £9748
Scotland, £9631

93

The Spook in Leith,

25/06/2008 11:47:47
Economists have since lined up to scotch UK government claims that Scotland would not thrive if it was given fiscal autonomy and even Dr Andrew Goudie, the Scottish Executive chief economist said in 2003 that GERS figures "tell us nothing ... about the situation under Independence".

What is all that about..?