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Give option to scrap parliament, says Tam



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Published Date: 26 May 2008
By HAMISH MACDONELL
SCOTS should be given the option of scrapping the Scottish Parliament if a referendum on independence is ever put to the people, a veteran Labour politician claimed yesterday.
Tam Dalyell, who was MP for Linlithgow and Father of the House of Commons before he retired in 2005, made his views clear in his official submission to the Calman Commission, which is looking into the powers of the Scottish Parliament.

Mr Dalyell
said: "It is in the nature of politicians to go on claiming additional powers and status for the institutions in which they find themselves.

"So it is a matter of no surprise that not only Scottish Nationalist Party members but MSPs from ever other party are clamouring for more powers."

Mr Dalyell added: "MSPs will not be satisfied until they reach a position indistinguishable from a separate Scottish state. It might well be that before this point is reached, the patience of people in England will have snapped.

"Thus my submission to the commission is that the very existence of a Scottish Parliament inevitably, sooner rather than later, leads to the dismantling of the British state.

"If this is what the majority really want, so be it, but in any referendum, in addition to questions on independence, enhanced powers, and the status quo, there ought to be a fourth question." Mr Dalyell said that that question should be: "Do you wish the Scottish Parliament to remain in being?"

The Calman Commission was set up earlier this year to examine the case for more powers for the Scottish Parliament.

Sir Kenneth Calman invited submissions from interested parties last week and Mr Dalyell is the first to submit his views and make them public.



The full article contains 290 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Richard,

WEST LOTHIAN 26/05/2008 00:10:47
Tam, you old buffer,there will be only one question INDEPENDENCE... YES OR NO.
2

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 26/05/2008 00:13:19
Four options.. one with the highest vote wins...

Works for me, thanks TAM
3

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/05/2008 00:17:12
Is there not an option about scrapping Tam DalYELL?

Geez, he really milks his dogma. Methinks too much.
4

Daibhidh,

Edinburgh 26/05/2008 01:20:00
Tam, like most unionist MPs is totally out-of-touch with Scotland. People are, on the whole, completely happy with devolution;many in fact want independence. Few, however, was to return to direct rule. Let's not further muddy the waters with rediculous Issues like this...
5

Royster,

26/05/2008 01:25:48
I agree with Tam though I would prefer a straight forward 'fully in or out of the union' choice. 'In' means Holyrood is dismantled and Scotland remains part of the UK (ie the pre-devolution situation). 'Out' means total and immediate independence and, of course, keeping Holyrood.
6

gerad,

greenock 26/05/2008 01:27:50
Tam has always been a pain in the a** some things never change. First by the post and put as many questions on the ballot as you like.
7

Jimmy Fae the West,

Embra 26/05/2008 02:31:16
What a fantastic idea Tam has. We all swamp the pretendy-Wendy, Sir Calman conversation with equally stupid and perverse questions.

My extra questions for the ballot may be;

Have you heard of the WESTMINSTER question?

Do you favour In, out, in, out and shake it all about?


Ye'll have had yer tea then?

and

Is she wearing new harmony hair spray?

All far more relevant than Tams stupid tartan Tory question.
8

Guga II,

Rockall 26/05/2008 02:32:34
#4 Daibhidh. That old fool has always been out of touch with Scotland. Does he really think that the people of Scotland, those that can remember him that is, care about him or his archaic attitudes?

9

weilian,

26/05/2008 05:39:30
When is this numpty going to wake up to the fact he is the ONLY person in Scotland who'd actually vote for that option? Who in their right mind would sign away the little bit of autonomy we have just as Thatcher Mk II (if you don't count the Tory Bliar, that is) is gearing up to move into No10???
10

Pilrig.,

Livingston 26/05/2008 05:56:39
8 - he's usually right on foreign matters. He was unique though, a Scots Labour MP who actually THOUGHT.
11

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 26/05/2008 06:33:44
9

He's not the only person.
12

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 26/05/2008 07:23:06
Some of you people are seriously out of touch yourselves if you think Tam Dalyell is out of touch. Most of the people I meet in this airt are NOT happy with devolution for quite a variety of reasons and have stated they will vote NO to any referendum on independence whilst many, I suspect, would quite happily vote to abolish Numpty HQ with its collection of 129 walking brain transplant donors.

When the referendum goes ahead I hope the National Socialist Party of Scotland aka SNP and their fellow travellers, will avoid the intellectually dishonest trick used the last time. For those who don't remember, it was "No Vote is a No Vote" in the hope that those opposing devolution would not bother to vote, thus ensuring a majority for devolution.
13

Free us from nationalist oppression,

26/05/2008 07:52:48
Tam is spot on the majority of Decent Scots do not want to have "rule by fear" from the nationalists within Scotland.

And the only way to ensure the freedom of all the scottish peoples from whatever or no political persuasion.
Is the scrapping of the Scottish Parliament in order to remove the " cancer of the Nationalist party in the body politic".

Since they have achieved by stealth minority power they caused more dissension and strife throughout Scotland and between Scottish citizens.

Than has been seen since before the act of union they thrive on national strife and promote dissension. In order to pursue their secessionist agenda even though all the evidence consistently and persistently shows the overwhelming wish of all the scottish peoples is to remain within the United Kingdom.
14

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 26/05/2008 07:57:17
I have always had a lot of sympathy for the position that nationalism is the last resort of the scoundrel.
15

slinkymalinky,

comin doon ra stairs 26/05/2008 08:04:39
"SCOTS should be given the option of scrapping the Scottish Parliament".........

I would imagine all the English retirees who have moved up here willnae vote for that. Give up their free care,free prescriptions etc etc?

I dinae hink so
16

It's me!,

26/05/2008 08:13:40
I sometimes wonder whether Tam feels he has missed out by being born too late to ride round the hills with his ancestor's dragoons to put Covenanters to the sword. Just who do these Scots think they are? Don't they know they were born to be subservient?
No, Tam, they are not!
17

ddmc,

26/05/2008 08:24:16
perhaps the UK should use a federal system similar to Germany, with Scotland, Tyne & Wear, Yorkshire, lancs, West country, wales, NI, south west & south east, all have the same powers as enjoyed by wales, us & NI currently.
18

brownlie,

26/05/2008 08:39:42
12 Prescott John

Quite right, Sir, much better for Scotland to have a UK parliament that takes us into illegal wars, invents dodgy dossiers, spends billions of weapons of mass destruction in case we're invaded by Iceland, accepts donations for honours, passports etc., and make the poor poorer and the rich richer.

Compared to their unblemished records, the nats are, indeed, the last resort of the scoundrel.

Let unionism flourish for the benefit of Scotland.
19

Normal!,

Highland 26/05/2008 08:54:17
#12 Spot on! It should be remembered that "New Labour" assured everyone that devolution would take the heat out of any demand for independence (small though it is). They then held a flawed referendum which allowed devolution despite only 46% of the electorate voting in favour. We may find Westminster Government imperfect but why must we have the bunch of numpties in Holyrood making things even worse - and at what Cost!!!!
20

Free us from nationalist oppression,

26/05/2008 08:59:17
#18 Bob Christie

"Decent scots" Are those who can live within the united kingdom without a chip on their shoulder and permanent finger pointing at England for all their woes.

The "majority view" was measured in the last scottish election and the last Westminster election. In which the snp did not gain the overall support of the scottish peoples.

"Rule by fear" how many times has the snp mantra of a poorer scotland.
Leading to a slow and lingering stagnation of the scottish economy and enduring poverty and ill health for the scottish peoples.
been said both in the past and in the future. In consequence of being and remaining within the United Kingdom and will be said again and again.
21

Alannah,

26/05/2008 09:04:28
There should be 3 questions:

1. No change
2. Vastly increased powers for the Parliament within the UK
3. Separatism

The overwhelming majority of Scots have an appetite for Number 2. Numbers 1 & 3 are not options. Tam and Alec are both miserably out of touch with the mood of the Scottish people.
22

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 26/05/2008 09:09:53
#20
Given the implications of being Prescott, John I'm glad that I'm actually Prester John !

If you think Scotland is some form of sleaze-free egalitarian well-governed utopia then you clearly live somewhere above cloud level. We are over-governed by numpties who prefer to rule, passing unnecessary laws which penalise the law-abiding instead of enforcing laws which are already there (airguns and knives come to mind). Tax levels are past the point of optimum 'take' and into the realms of diminishing returns. Look hard enough and you'll find massive inefficiency at all levels.

I've always argued for the federalist case, roughly on a par with the German model albeit with fewer elected representatives. I would even go as far as to split Scotland up into three states - broadly the Southern Uplands, The Central Lowlands and The Highlands & Islands. There are good geographic reasons for doing this. Equally, the same could apply to England and Wales.

As for the wonders of Scotland being independent, given so many rules and laws being imposed from Brussels - with the European Union imposing a de facto European Superstate via the 'Treaty', really as admitted quite openly by various leading European politicans and luminaries, the Constitution by another name - Scotland will be a peripheral state of little importance in any event.

23

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 26/05/2008 09:15:18
Before anyone comments I am perfectly well aware that the tax take is governed by Westminster. I am not convinced it would be substantially different were it determined by Holyrood. Given the nature of our politicians, it is actually likely to be higher.
24

brownlie,

26/05/2008 09:17:02
23 Free us etc

Well spotted - the SNP did not gain the overall support of the Scottish people but the nats will probably argue that the current UK government did not gain the overall support of the UK electorate and that none of our unionists parties gained overall support in the Scottish elections.

You are perfectly correct in pointing out the stagnation of the Scottish economy and the poverty and ill-health of the Scottish people which has, obviously, been caused by the current SNP government. These problems had, after all, previously, been totally eradicated by our unionist LAb/Lib coalition.
25

Alan B,

26/05/2008 09:29:12
Really do not understand this call for an option to scrap the scottish parliament.

Firstly we have had a referendum to create it not that long ago.

Secondly there is no demand for removing the parliament.

Also did Tam call for a referendum for independence before, showing some coherance to democracy. Or is this just a stupid politicial playing their cretinous games.

It also complicates matters. A referendum has got to give a straight choice. How many question are we going to have? STV will not work for a referendum.

The fact is, if their is a demand for scrapping the parliament this view point should stand on its own merit and not try to piggyback on the snp bandwagon.

The biggest problem really is: most people would seem most content with significantly more powers for the sp. (Independence might win a majority and for democracies sake should be tested in a referendum). However it is not really an option being put to the people. The party that is genuine about more powers, is the lib dems and they are so badly lead.
26

Alan B,

26/05/2008 09:35:30
#Alannah

U say ur number 2 has overwhelming support. The overwhelming support for this option is generated by adding those that want more powers with those that want independence.

There is also a case for saying many or some of those that want more powers see it as a stepping stone to independence at a later date.

I for instance would like scotland to move to fiscal autonomy before any move to independence.
27

Alan B,

26/05/2008 09:41:50
#22

"They then held a flawed referendum which allowed devolution despite only 46% of the electorate voting in favour"

So under ur view of democracy it does not matter if the majority vote strongly in favour of devolution, as happened. U think it is ok to count those that do not vote, as a vote in ur favour.

If we only had a change of government if they got a majority of the entire electrate rather than those that actually vote, we would never have a change of government.

There is this thing called democracy. As long as u do not have compulsory voting, giving people the right to abstain or not be bothered, democracy is about the will of the majority that vote.
28

brownlie,

26/05/2008 09:43:37
25 Prester John

You will notice in the last paragraph of this article that Lord Calman has "invited comments from interested parties last week".

Were you invited to comment? I know that I was not and I'm pretty sure that Alan B. Bob Christie, Alannah and others who are interested enough to post on this site, were not invited to comment.

Why do you think that is the case?
29

Prester John,

Pots_n_pans 26/05/2008 10:00:44
#32

The answer is fairly obvious I suspect. These 'consultations' are confined to those considered as the 'great and the good' and always seem to be weighted towards producing findings which reflect the ruling political consensus. Just enough in the way of dissension and alternative opinion is allowed to create the illusion of genuine debate.

Even plebiscites / referenda are no guarantee that public beliefs and opinions will be allowed to prevail. Does anyone seriously doubt that the Irish will be forced to vote again and again until they vote 'yes' to the new European Treaty ? (Should they vote 'no' in the first place, of course)
30

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 26/05/2008 10:07:09
Time for Tam to put a lid on it. It's complicated enough getting people to think about one issue without really confusing the situation by trying to tackle 3 options! Throw into the equation the Calman Commission deliberations and you get a proper dog's breakfast. He's been thinking about this West Lothian question so long he's failed to see the elephant in the room.

Why not just go for a straightforward yes/no question regarding independence? Once that's sorted the way ahead becomes much clearer and is either, well, independence or next thing is what kind of relationship do we have within the UK (Calman Commission). So that could be to check next - Do you want a devolved Scottish Parliament? OK, check. Now we have a much easier position - either the existing parliament is dissolved and we go back to the status quo pre-devolution or we then decide what kind of devolved parliament and then get asked on a tick-list basis what we want the new form of parliament has power over. Is that too simple? I fear it is.

31

Alan Reid,

NZ 26/05/2008 10:07:45
Good idea Tam, i'll vote to scrap Westminster any time. And all power of the UK going to Hollyrood!!
32

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 26/05/2008 10:08:56
#22
You are obviously content with the travesty that applied last time where the referendum was subverted by the 'No vote is a 'NO' vote' campaign designed to ensure that those opposed to devolution did not vote.

It's not all that far from there to other electoral practices such as dead men voting, impersonation of voters, ballot box stuffing, collecting / completing postal votes in appropriately etc. These are all occurring in the UK.
33

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 26/05/2008 10:12:52
Probably not ballot-box stuffing.
34

Free us from nationalist oppression,

26/05/2008 10:18:57
#29 #27

There is a world of difference between being elected a representative in the present constitution which all other parties wish to continue.

And the snp position of being elected and taking an oath to uphold the present constitution and then following a pathway towards breaking up the united kingdom.

When the present Scottish parliamentary MSPs are in the majority pro-union.And the majority of Scottish Westminster MPs are also pro-union.

#27

And in reply to your comment over the economic benefits of the union. Perhaps if Scottish society did not have individuals such as yourselves working to undermine and subvert the Scottish economy. In the nationalist cause of creating an economic wasteland to try to gain support for your forlorn cause.

Then the Scottish economy would be able to fully benefit from being in the United Kingdom.
35

HughB,

Edinburgh 26/05/2008 10:26:32
There should also be an option to scrap the English parliament at Westminster.

Some people seem to think that Westminster is the only parliament on the planet which has the right to exist for ever and ever.
36

Lapidate,

Musselburgh 26/05/2008 10:41:12
Tam was aye one of the craven scotch. I don't understand why he wants to remain here - obviously he's surrounded by people he deems incapable or running, or even influencing, their own affairs. He'd be much happier in the home counties.
37

Lapidate,

Musselburgh 26/05/2008 10:53:43
The other thing that made me chuckle was that this was his "official" submission. Remind me, what office does he hold ? Must remember to get my official submission in. lol
38

Miss H,

26/05/2008 11:07:39
You could ask that question but I believe we know the answer already. Tam Dalyell is a strange person. I find it difficult to reconcile many of his political views with his commitment to a very centralised British state. However I suppose he always contributes a different angle to things.
39

brownlie,

26/05/2008 11:36:01
38 Free

".. the national cause of creating an economic wasteland..."???

Even the most blinkered of unionists such as myself can see that the economic wasteland was here long before the SNP came into power and this wasteland was created by Thatcherite policies aided an abetted by her cloned sucessors - New Labour party.
40

brownlie,

26/05/2008 11:43:29
33 Prester John

"... weighted towards producing the findings which reflect the ruling party concensus ..."

You may not have noticed that the ruling party - the Scottish National Party - were not invited in any form to take part in the Calman Review so it is difficult to see how their concensus can be obtained.

Thus, any illusion, or any semblance, of genuine debate is not an option.
41

Margaret L,

Edinburgh 26/05/2008 11:49:40
28# - yes we did have a referendum not that long ago and I was one who voted double yes but now I have realised my error. Did any of us realise just how amateurish and embarrassing a Scottish parliament would be? The paucity of political talent in this country has been laid bare before the world.

The solution of so many (including above) is to extend the powers or go for complete separatism. Surely I can't be the only one that finds this perverse. If they can't cope with the little powers they have got how can we possibly think about giving them more?

Tam was right all along and we should be brave enough to admit it.
42

Free us from nationalist oppression,

26/05/2008 11:54:37
#43

The 'Enemy within' have spent all their time and energy for many years to subvert the scottish economy to further the aim of the Nationalist cause.
43

brownlie,

26/05/2008 11:58:48
46 Free

Please explain, giving examples if possible, as us unionists are struggling for reasons to vilify the nats?
44

ThomasP,

Scotland, Aberdeen 26/05/2008 12:09:01
45 Margaret L,Edinburgh

The Scottish Government are actually doing a great job.

Scotland and England have major differences now and Scotland for example has free education all the way to University which would normally cost £20,000 to go to University in England/Wales and Scotland is also set to have free perscription charges. Despite an increase to the perscriptions in England.
45

livilion,

livingston 26/05/2008 12:13:20
#38 Free us from nationalist oppression

>>And the snp position of being elected and taking an oath to uphold the present constitution and then following a pathway towards breaking up the united kingdom.<<
Because that's what you want to think doesn't actually make it so.

The oath states: "I (Member’s Name), do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, Her Heirs and Successors, according to Law. So help me God."

The affirmation states: "I (Member’s Name), do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, Her Heirs and Successors, according to Law."

Current SNP policy is to retain Queen Elizabeth(not you'll notice QEII) in the same roll she fulfulls for the rest of the Commonwealth. Or are you still of the impression that our Queen's obligation is as Queen of England?
46

livilion,

livingston 26/05/2008 12:28:51
#45 Margaret L

I agree with #48 ThomasP.

The reasons for the amaturish performance as you put it are several but first among them was St Donald's wish to protect himself as our first First Minister from any coup attempt from within his own party.

To this end he actively discouraged Labour parliamentarians of any ability from standing as MSPs, hence the embarrasing lack of quality of Labour MSPs highlighted by the cringeworthy performances of successive Labour leaders since, culminating in 'Bendy Wendy' being elected unopposed for heaven's sake.

If she's their best you have to feel some pity for the rest.
47

livilion,

livingston 26/05/2008 12:37:51

I have no objections to a multichoice single transferrable vote which gives the option to Scrap Holyrood, retain the status quo, give Holyrood fiscal autonomy, give MSPs the full range of tools available to elected representatives of a sovereign nation.
48

,

26/05/2008 12:52:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
49

Nikostratos,

26/05/2008 13:04:01
#57 Guga

"uncle toms" racist to the core Guga. Did you know your fixation on perceiving people as foreigners is a symptom of schizophrenia.

Signs and symptoms


"Beliefs not based on reality (delusions), such as the belief that there's a conspiracy against you"


Get some treatment you'll be better for it
50

Geomac 1,

Kinross 26/05/2008 13:04:52
#9

He's NOt the only person by any means!!
51

livilion,

livingston 26/05/2008 13:15:13
24 Alannah
Who exactly is advocating 'Separatism'?

As far as I am aware the SNP are calling for Scotland to re-adjust the inequitable relationships between Scotland and her neighbours.

They want to improve relations between London and Edinburgh by putting them on an equal political footing and restore Scotland to her historic position as a full an inclusive member of the world community of nations.

Scotland is not being 'separated' from anything but joining the rest of her neighbours including England on a basis of mutual respect and equality.
52

Deekie fae Midstocket,

Aberdeen 26/05/2008 13:24:10
The sooner we get rid of the Westminster Parliament, the better. How much longer must my taxes go to subsidising the anti-Scottish gravy train in London? Keep your sleaze and corruption in England, but pay for it yourselves!
53

Nikostratos,

26/05/2008 13:31:57
#56

Yep! swap Westminster gravy train for the snp one. Be leaving station around 2011 all aboard! toot!toot
54

HughB,

Edinburgh 26/05/2008 14:22:22
He's quite happy to stay here in the lands and estates that were bestowed on his family for supporting England and the union.
55

BrianHill,

Edinburgh 26/05/2008 14:27:24
Ah yes....bless you for your input TD, we'll let you know.
56

Alan B,

26/05/2008 14:28:18
#livilion

Cannot see how STV could work for a referendum. I could understand 2 questions. ie 1. for or against indepence and 2. more powers

STV would mean potentially some undemocratic outcomes.

eg

say the result is
status quo - 34%
more powers - 30%
independence - 36%

more powers would drop out and be redistubuted to the others. Say 20 of the 30 go to status quo and 10 go to independence the status quo would win.

However assuming all the independence votes would go to more powers if that option was not available u would have an overwhelming majority for more powers.

There are afew possibilities like that.
57

Alan B,

26/05/2008 14:41:26
#Margaret L

The problem i have with another question is stated above #60. ie STV does not work.

I do not have a problem with a referendum per se to ask a question to remove the sp but there does appear little demand for it. Opinion polls have this option as about 10%.

There is much more demand for independence and we have not put that question before the people before,as such i think it makes sense. That other problem u have if u start having regular referendums like this.

If their is a no vote for independence it should kill the issue for a couple of decades. However if we start re-asking the dev question after 10yrs then we have set a president for re-running referendums where one side does not like the outcome quite regularly.

The tories dropped their opposition to a sp becuase their position lacked public support. Opinion polls suggest support for the sp is now much higher than when introduced.

As for ur dig at the perceived lack of quality at the sp. Firstly that is abit subjective but i would say:
1)the quality at westmister has been very poor. if u look at the quality of westminster cabinets i would say they have been generally dreadful with a few shining lights.

a)look at heath the guy is a joke for a leader
b)look at the callaghan government. 25% inflation, imf loans as we were going bankrupt.
c)thatcher government ministers. yes heseltine, ken clark were good minsters and their were afew others most were very poor. Hurd! Howe! Baker! and they held senior positions.
d)blairs government: while i have never been able to see blair in a good light, to me he was alway appalling largely becuase i like proper politicians who say what they believe, i do understand that many like that dumbed down type of politics. But his cabinet was poor. Clarke, blunkett, mandelson, harman. Most were completely useless. The only ones i would say were decent would be cook and reid.
2) if i compare the last 4 westminster government to the current scottish
58

Alan B,

26/05/2008 14:41:49
cont..

2) if i compare the last 4 westminster government to the current scottish one, while i do not agree with some of their policies i would say there is more quality in this current team than i have seen in a uk government.
59

Allan(handofgod137),

26/05/2008 15:05:45
Why do all you cybernats have such a problem with the democratic process? If you're so confident that the Scottish people will vote for independence then you should surely have no problem with a "scrap follyrood" option being included in the referendum, or is this the tartan trots showing their true colours?
60

Alan B,

26/05/2008 15:25:09
#Allan(handofgod137)

I do not have a problem per se with a referendum to scrap the scottish parliament. I do think referendums should be a single clear question. As i posted above i do not believe STV for a referendum works.

There is something undemocratic about a politician who will not support a referendum for independence then wanting his preferred option as a question on a referendum. It hardly shows consistency.

I personally would be happy to have referendums like the do in certain states in the US. I like the idea of direct democracy.

The question u have to address if u want a question to scrap the sp is: if we have a referendum on a question how many more times do we run the referendum with the same question.

Unionist have argued not to have a referendum on independence as their is no demand despite opinion polls showing broadly even support for independence and the union over the last 9 yrs.

U want a referendum on removing the sp despite opinion polls showing about that being the position of only about 10%.
61

Nikostratos,

26/05/2008 15:33:24
#64

UH. no Alan unionists have argued we live in a representative democracy which has no recognition within our constitution of the use referendums.

62

Eve,

Scotland 26/05/2008 15:39:36
#45 Margaret L: Why did you vote YES twice?

I was too young to vote in the last referndum. Though I'm old enough to remeber what live was like before Holyrood's opening. Allow thing haven't always gone the way we would plan or hope, things are defently better.

Education is more accessable for everyone. Allough more costly BUT thats Westminsters that made it more expencive way.

There deffently more opitism since the SNP took over the Scottish goverment. BUT what the Scottish Goverment can do is limted because of thoes Baw Bags in Westminster. This has always been the case as it's been widely disscussed that Jack McConnell wanted more control than he had BUT he just bottled it up rather that confront Westminster.

What acasly are scared off?

Me, I'm scared of letting fears stop me from living life to the full and achiving my full potencail.
63

Eve,

Scotland 26/05/2008 15:46:38
#28 Alan B,: "The party that is genuine about more powers, is the lib dems and they are so badly lead." Is that a joke. I wouldn't have thought the Led dem where genuine about any thing.

I once saw a political broad cast of theres and NOT one of them could face the cammra. All theos side face shots made me think that they were untrust worthy. Before that I thought the Lib dems where ok.
64

Eve,

Scotland 26/05/2008 15:52:56
#1 Richard: Only if the Labour party MSP keep there word!

The might deiced they are NOT. I don't trust them!
65

Margaret L,

Edinburgh 26/05/2008 17:02:06
66# - your ignorance is showing dear.
66

Alan B,

26/05/2008 17:11:58
#Eve

I do not support the lib dems but they are the only party that does support more powers for the scottish parliament. Although as i said i think they are poorly lead by Nicol Stephens.

The steel commission was i believe a genuine attempt to improve the powers of the scottish parliament.

Labour are abit all over the place. Some did not want the SP. Some wanted it to stop the snp and independence. And a some others genuinely saw it as a way to better government in scotland.

"I wouldn't have thought the Led dem where genuine about any thing."

We could be cynical and say that about most politicians. For me the most untrustworthy would be labour.
67

David Ban,

04620 Vera 26/05/2008 17:12:22
When I saw the headline I said to myself thank goodness Westminster is going- oops how wrong could I be!
68

Eve,

Scotland 26/05/2008 17:54:27
#69 Margaret L: Your temper is showing!

Labling folk you don't know, tut tut!!!

Theres nothing to fear more than fear it self. It's a famous quote AND also correct. I'm sorry you weren't ready to hear that!
69

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 26/05/2008 18:20:05
What kind of craven attitude is that Tom ?

Scrap the building(Dewars folly), yes, put it were it should be Calton Hill, fully independent.

The UK was prone to collapse from the outset. The sooner the better.
70

Alan B,

26/05/2008 19:15:20
#Nikostratos

"UH. no Alan unionists have argued we live in a representative democracy which has no recognition within our constitution of the use referendums."

That makes not sense. We have had 3 referendums in the uk that i can remember. The eec under the tories and 2 regarding a scottish assembly and sp enacted by labour.

Labour were going to have a referendum on the eu constititution and the tories still want one. The lib dems have also been infavour of referendums.


71

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26/05/2008 19:34:44
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72

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/05/2008 20:02:07
The Scottish parliament is the brainchild of Brussels. They knew they were going to let former Soviet colonies into the EU and noticed that the UK was the least democratic of existing member states. Less democratic than the former Soviet Union.

Uncle Tam is probably thinking that now that the dust has settled he can ressurect his futile crusade.

These guys just go down kicking and ungracefully.

The parliament is here to stay and it will have full autonomy one day.

To paraphrase the English in 1707. "Now we have catched it we will not let it go."

And all you British Nationalists had better believe it.
73

Endangeredscot,

26/05/2008 20:29:42
From Wikipedia:

Sir Thomas Dalyell of the Binns, 11th Baronet (born 9 August 1932), known as Tam Dalyell is a Scottish politician and was a Labour member of the House of Commons from 1962 to 2005.

Dalyell was born in England but raised in his mother's family home, The Binns, near Linlithgow, West Lothian; his father (Percy) Gordon Loch, C.I.E., a scion of the family of Loch of Drylaw, was an Empire civil servant (Political Agent) and through his mother he is a baronet, although he never uses the title.


Says all you need to know to understand his position.
74

Margaret L,

Edinburgh 26/05/2008 20:37:38
72# all I was trying to say was that if someone is going to comment on these forums surely they would know that the referendum had two questions?

(I have said before that the hordes of Scot Nats that infest these forums bring shame on Scotland because of their ignorance and illiteracy - it is up to them to try harder or shut up.)
75

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26/05/2008 21:14:35
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26/05/2008 21:18:50
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26/05/2008 21:18:51
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Eve,

Scotland 26/05/2008 21:19:52
#73 Ard Righ: Aye, thats right that building coust a fortune to build.

And what would be do with the statue of Donald (with his brooken glasses that is place up on a stone so nonoe can break his glasses more) Dure. The stone Reads: There shall be a Scottish parliment. You've got to move around in a ciral to read it but it does say it.

What would they do put a staute of Tam beside him and write on the stone "The Scottish Parlment shall now seus to exist once more!"
79

Eve,

Scotland 26/05/2008 21:37:23
#79 Margaret L: I know that the referdum in 1997/8 (can't remeber the exsact date but I know what age I was and what year I was in at High school when it took place) had two questions.

I remeber the YES YES campaing. I asked why you vote YES YES, because of the the way you wrote about your belifes. I would have thought someone with thoes belifes would have voted NO in at least one of the question.

Thank you right I'm a braw role model for illatrates because I accept I have weekness but don't let them stop me achiving a degree or writing my opion.

I ask question because I have a curious natuare and egar to lear new things/ have a higher understandations of differnt persectives. NOT the kind of girl to belive information that I've heard purely from one soucre as correct.

80

Eve,

Scotland 26/05/2008 21:41:55
#82 A Voice from Scotland :o): Thanks!

"unique way of spelling" has to be the nicest thing anyone has ever said about my spelling.
81

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 01:22:30
Can not anybody else see the mediocrity that exists in todays politics and then see the lower ebb and eddy that exists in holyrood?

They are a bunch of wannabees who have no more ability that my horse ! (an able creature for eating grass and nipping those who offend it!) I would love nothing better that to see these sycophants replaced with real people, not career politicians, to ensure the future of this country. The problem is that we have politicians that have no agenda other than rhetoric and re-election - there is no common thought between the politicians and the people - they seek to control and we seek to be lead ... the challenge at the moment is that they would do ANYTHING to stay in power and receive privilege at our vote but do nothing to justify nor do anything to benefit the people - lest their political future be massacred at the hands of bigger powers that control our choices.

The Scottish Parliament must do away with the ethos of large government, which is difficult in a nation of 'cripples' and 'benefit junkies' only 40% of Scotland works in the private sector for a living. Imagine how great we could be if we ALL took a stake in the nations prosperity. Jaysus, we could could have electric wheelchairs for everyone ! and 100 social workers per child on a 15 hour week just to make sure that no discipline was ever given 24/7 !

If Tam wants a referendum let give him one -- though I think he has come out of the wood work to take the heat off Wendy - typical Labour spin .... no substance but all the sleaze!
82

democracy,

Scottish Borders 06/06/2008 10:53:28
The ONLY option for a successful future for Scotland is to rid itself of ALL Unionists, you know! the ones that prefer their nation be governed by a foreign country, you know! the ones that WANT to be fully anglicised,the ones that want their country to be called UK, the ones that prefer their culture and customs be thrown into the UK melting pot and diluted to the point of extinction and eventually be seen as English or British and hated by most of the world!!!!
83

maximum,

Edinburgh 06/06/2008 13:32:23
Absolutely. Lets bin the pretend parliament and spend the money on something useful.
84

Over the rainbow,

somewhere 06/06/2008 21:27:23

Thought Tam wanted to solve the Lothian question.

Seems his changed his mind.
85

livilion,

livingston 07/06/2008 10:11:54
#89 maximum

We could mebbes invade Zimbabwe, we've not invaded anywhere for ages now.
Or we might buy ourselves some nuclear power stations and make more WMDs to use against Osama bin Laden in Pakistan or his family in Saudi.
OR why don't we use our famous UK independent nuclear deterrent's international muscle and influence to perhaps threaten to nuke the oil producing states and get them to bring down the price of their crude oil?

btw I hear the latest estimates for cleaning up after nuclear power stations retire is £78bn and rising, with no costings made public for guarding the resultant radioactive waste for the next centuries.

OR we could simply dig a pit, throw all that money in and burn it, for all the good wasting the cash on Whitehall ego trips does for us in Scotland.

The issue with getting rid of as you call it the pretend parliament is that we in the Lothians then have no effective say in where or how our tax money is raised or spent.

The West Lothian question from Livingston is: if everyone in West Lothian votes against Gordon Brown or David Cameron how much influence does this minority of the UK electorate have at Westminster?

Get rid of the pretend and make it a proper, fully functioning, parliament with full control of where and how our public money is raised and spent.

Then we could reverse the disasters that UK priorities have made of Scottish transport and industry, invest in meaningful improvements to our education system, healthcare and policing, by concentrating on 'outcomes' that benefit people living here in Scotland rather than focus groups inside the M25 corridor and London controlled tabloid headlines.

If any parliament is to be scrapped I reckon scrapping that dinosaur in Westminster should be the one to think about. Transfer its responsibilities to Stormont, Cardiff, Edinburgh and A.N Other for England who can then liase with each other on issues of mutual interest.

 

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