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The great train fares rip-off



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Published Date: 16 June 2008
RAIL passengers are being denied the cheapest tickets because of bizarre hidden anomalies in the fare structure of some routes, The Scotsman can reveal.
Travellers can save money by buying several separate tickets for the same journey, but train operators say that they are not obliged to reveal the cheaper options.

The cost of some trips in Scotland can be reduced by up to one-third by buying multiple tickets, while in other examples regional travel passes can cut the cost of a journey by almost 70 per cent. Passengers only benefit if they are aware of such tactics. The savings are also not available when buying from ticket machines or online.

An off-peak return between Dundee and Glasgow, for example, bought on the day of travel, costs £30.40, but canny passengers would pay only £19 if they bought separate cheap day returns from Glasgow-Stirling, Stirling-Perth and Perth-Dundee – so long as their train called at those stations. Those travelling between Inverness and Aberdeen for the day could save nearly £3 by booking separate tickets from Inverness-Nairn and Nairn to Aberdeen.

In the west, passengers could be paying up to three times as much as they need for some trips. A return between Ayr and Arrochar, the hillwalking area near Loch Lomond, costs £28.90, but travellers would pay just £9 if they asked for a Daytripper day ticket, which gives unlimited travel across Strathclyde.

Routes between Edinburgh/Glasgow and Perth/Dundee/ Aberdeen are particularly prone to fare anomalies.

Barry Doe, a rail fares expert, said train operators were only required to sell the ticket for which passengers asked.

The Association of Train Operating Companies, which represents firms including First ScotRail, confirmed that ticket sellers were not required to tell passengers the cheapest way of buying tickets for their journey.

A spokesman said staff were obliged only to inform customers of the cheapest ticket for the journey they asked for.

First ScotRail operates a similar policy, despite recent aspirations from Mary Grant, the managing director, that her staff's customer service be as good as the "nothing is too much trouble" attitude at John Lewis.

The fare anomalies derive partly from the nationalised British Rail era more than a decade ago, when fares were jacked up on some routes to reduce overcrowding, to save buying more trains.

These included routes to Aberdeen during the oil boom, resulting in through-tickets costing more than separate tickets for different sections of line.

Mr Doe pointed out that a simplification of the fares system by train companies, which started last month, would not resolve such anomalies. He explained that the move was primarily to give a common name to similar fares offered by different operators under a range of names.

All advanced-purchase tickets were renamed advance in May, while fares bought on the day of travel will be renamed anytime and off-peak in September.

He said: "The simplification is in name only. The same number of fares exist after as before."

Passenger Focus, the official rail watchdog, said changes must be made to maintain passenger confidence.

Robert Samson, its Scotland manager, said: "There are a number of anomalies and inconsistencies in the fares system, not only in Scotland but across Britain, that have been allowed to creep in over the years. Passengers require a simple and easy-to-understand fares system that they can have faith in."

The Scottish Government's Transport Scotland agency, which controls the First Scot-Rail franchise, said it had reviewed its fares policy, which would be published "in due course".

A spokesman said: "The train operators are currently drawing up a price promise which will commit them to sell the best-value ticket to passengers. It will clearly set out what train operators can and can't do to help passengers buy the best ticket for their journey."

First ScotRail, which took over the franchise four years ago, said it was aware of the anomalies and was tackling the issues involved.

A spokesman said: "We have a wide range of value-for-money tickets, and the introduction of a much simpler structure for rail fares is well under way. We also support the imminent 'price promise' on best-value tickets and are keen to address any anomalies that were inherited."

Advance tickets, which must be booked at least the night before travel, are often cheaper than those bought on the day.

However, these are subject to availability, unlike on-the-day fares, and not available on every route.

Tickets are also not transferable for different times. The cheapest such return between Glasgow and Dundee is £12.

GRAPHIC: FARE'S FAIR? How rail firms could be charging you over the odds
(opens as a PDF)

'Amazing, we never thought about that' – said fares office

JUST how misleading is the system? The Scotsman yesterday set out to discover just that. First stop was the ticket office at Waverley. Square brackets show where they got it wrong.

The Scotsman (TS): "How much is a cheap day return from Aberdeen to Inverness?"

First ScotRail (FSR): "£25.90."

TS: "Is it any cheaper if I go from Aberdeen to Nairn, and Nairn to Inverness?"

FSR: "You would be quicker to ask this on the phone. Aberdeen to Nairn is £18.20, and Nairn to Inverness is £4.80."

TS: "Can I ask..."

FSR: "There's a queue. We can only give fares. It's policy."

TS: "OK, can you tell me how much an off-peak, walk-on day return saver ticket is from Glasgow to Dundee?"

FSR: "£30.40."

TS: "Is it cheaper to go from Glasgow to Stirling, Stirling to Perth and Perth to Dundee?"

FSR: "No, it's not cheaper."

(Not the case – see example 2, above].

TS: "And what about an off-peak, walk-on single from Edinburgh to Dundee?"

FSR: "£19.10."

TS: "Is that cheaper via Kirkcaldy?"

FSR: "No."

(Not the case – see example 3].

First ScotRail's phone line and National Rail Enquiries gave even more varied answers.

TS: "How much is a cheap day return from Aberdeen to Inverness?"

FSR: "A Saver return is £34.40."

(More than fare should be – see example 1, above].

TS: "Would it be cheaper from Aberdeen to Nairn and Nairn to Inverness?"

FSR: "I don't think so but I'll check. Aberdeen to Nairn is £32.80, Nairn-Inverness £4.50."

(More than it should be – see example 1, above].

TS: "Can I ask about a couple of other fares?"

FSR: "We are a booking office so I will give you the number for National Rail Enquiries."

So we rang NRE.

TS: "How much is a cheap day return from Aberdeen to Inverness?"

NRE: "£25.90."

TS: "Is it any cheaper to go from Aberdeen to Nairn and Nairn to Inverness?"

NRE: "Aberdeen-Nairn is £18.20 and Nairn-Inverness is £4.80."

TS: "Glasgow to Dundee?"

NRE: "A Saver return is £30.40."

TS: "Any cheaper if I go Glasgow to Stirling, Stirling to Perth, Perth to Dundee?"

NRE: "Glasgow-Stirling is £6.30. To Perth is £6.30 and Perth to Dundee is £6.40. You save £12. That's really amazing. We never even thought about this."

TS: "What about an off-peak single from Edinburgh to Dundee?"

NRE: "£19.10. But if you travel with National Express East Coast only, it's £18."

TS: "And if I go Edinburgh to Kirkcaldy and Kirkcaldy to Dundee?"

NRE: "To Kirkcaldy is £5.90 and Dundee is £10. Cheaper again. How do you know about this?"

TS: "Someone told me it was cheaper to break it up."

Commentary: Time to simplify these baffling options

ROBERT RITCHIE


EVERY day, rail travellers across Scotland pay more than they need. Call centres, websites, ticket machines and booking offices often do not suggest the cheapest option.

ScotRail will tell you the lowest fare for a journey using a single or return ScotRail ticket between two points, but isn't obliged to say if it is cheaper, as it often is, to split the journey or use a non-ScotRail ticket, like the Strathclyde Daytripper.

I've witnessed passengers being charged more than they need at ticket offices and on trains. It's not just a few isolated examples. The system is riddled with anomalies – hundreds of them. And there is nowhere passengers can go and be confident they are getting the correct information on the best fares.

That is astonishing. I don't get ripped off, but I shouldn't need to do the necessary research to ensure that.

As a regular passenger, I find the fare structure confusing. We were promised fares would be simplified from 18 May. In fact, for ScotRail passengers, the opposite is true. Some names have changed, but there are the same types of ticket and same conditions.

Adding a new layer of confusion and complexity to ticket purchase, there are no advance returns anymore: you have to combine single tickets (three operators mean 37 possible standard class Edinburgh-Aberdeen return fares depending on time of booking and travel – lowest £13, highest £62.90).

First ScotRail, as a commercial operator, may have a vested interest in the status quo. But it is not like a bus company or airline. It is, in effect, a public service operated by a private company. About two-thirds of its annual income (£282 million in 2006-7) is from the Scottish Government – ie, taxpayers.

I'd expect the government, as the major stakeholder in Scotland's railways, to accept responsibility to ensure all passengers are being treated fairly and do not face fare discrimination because of where they live and the particular journeys they wish to make.

It's time for an overhaul of the fare structure.

• Robert Ritchie is a rail traveller and Scotsman reader.

Top tips to beat system

• Splitting a journey may be best. Using multiple tickets applies to all operators, as long as the train calls at the stations between which you have bought tickets.

• You will most often be charged higher prices on long-distance day-returns.

• Don't buy through-tickets involving a change in Edinburgh or Glasgow without checking if separate tickets are cheaper.

• In Strathclyde, you can use SPT Daytripper tickets off-peak. You can't buy them on trains, just ticket offices and SPT Travel Centres.

• Use the ScotRail website and the Journey Planner for prices between stations.

The full article contains 1734 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 16 June 2008 12:52 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: The railways
 
1

danbob,

16/06/2008 00:33:11
Must be no news day. As a train guard I could write a book about anomalies. This information can be picked up by anybody playing around with options on the national rail enquires website. But what you have ommited to tell people is this. If for example you buy a single from Glasgow queen st./Central to Stirling, and then a single from Stirling to Perth the train you are using must call at Stirling. Otherwise your tickets will not be valid.
2

Fifi la Bonbon,

16/06/2008 00:50:57
"First ScotRail operates a similar policy, despite recent aspirations from Mary Grant, the managing director, that her staff's customer service be as good as the "nothing is too much trouble" attitude at John Lewis."

That's really funny. "Nothing is too much trouble."

Everything is a trouble and a pain. From broken ticket machines and ticket offices that are closed while staff are hiding behind the screen, to filthy suburban stations in which drunken neds are free to harass the unwary evening passenger while staff look on behind their bulletproof glass, to thuggish ticket collectors waiting at the exit to accuse us of trying to rip the company off, the whole system is designed to humiliate and frustrate the customer.

So much easier, even at current petrol prices, to drive.
3

James,

Dundee 16/06/2008 02:56:11
These 'anomalies' have existed for years - and we're talking British Rail.
4

bring them on,

16/06/2008 03:16:19
I had a summer job at British Rail for three years, way back.

Everyone is on the fiddle.

Might have changed nowadays, but I doubt it.

Disgrace.
5

Nick1975,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 06:31:21
#1... err...The article makes the point about the train needing to stop at the stations if you split the ticket at least twice....
"...but canny passengers would pay only £19 if they bought separate cheap day returns from Glasgow-Stirling, Stirling-Perth and Perth-Dundee – so long as their train called at those stations" and "Splitting a journey may be best. Using multiple tickets applies to all operators, as long as the train calls at the stations between which you have bought tickets."
6

Concerned local,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 07:10:48
'Nothing is too much trouble' for First ScotRail staff in dealing with customers?????????? Ha ha ha ha, how amusing! Maybe Mary should get out a bit more, she'll find out that, as far as the customer is concerned, anything and everything is just way too much trouble for First Scotrail staff.
7

Observer, formerly resident,

16/06/2008 07:27:39
New Labour came in trumpeting ‘education, education, education’. Whether this has been to any avail is perhaps moot. How different it might have been for the country – and perhaps for New Labour – if they had sorted the trains! I once observed that a beer in Milan could cost £6. It was £7 return for a 100 mile train trip to Turin. Perhaps a message for youth in that: get out and about, learn about you country. Not so easy at our fare levels (or lack of railways since all the closures).
8

,

16/06/2008 08:40:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 16/06/2008 08:44:38
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:XL-P2DTQkhEJ:www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/bills/78-railpass/b78s2-introd-pm.pdf+Scotrail,+subsidies&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=uk

"Between 1997-98 and 2004-05, when services were operated by the National Express
Group, public subsidies of £1.9 billion were made to the ScotRail franchise.

This means that since 31 March 1997 £3.8 billion of public money has been paid or is
committed to be paid to private sector companies to run ScotRail passenger services"

So that £3.8.000,000,000 of taxpayers money has been given to these companies over 10 years, -about 380,000,000 a year - for a service which many people cannot afford to travel on.

So that's alright then?
10

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 16/06/2008 08:49:59
The thing is - as mooted in the Thingvollr aka Boglands Parliament - passenger or freight receipts could never pay for decent modern stock, track and signalling. Could the UK Treasury help? Well no, because we don't really have one. It can only borrow money from the Bank of England and the Government must find ever more ingenious and devious ways of taxing the citizen to pay the interest on it. To sell the difference, it has firstly to be created. What needs selling is civilised travel where you can sit in splendid isolation, read a book, mag, or newspaper or converse pleasantly with your companions. Admire the vaulted architecture or enjoy fresh air and flowerbeds while awaiting a train.

BR of the anomalies did build commendable long haul trainsets which were good value for the little money they had compared to continental neighbours who regard railways as a national asset, an investment and ... civilised travel.

A Scottish Treasury could issue its own credit to build proper modern electric rainways keeping everything in house. (Imagine if your captain had to contact a call center to get landing instructions for Edinburgh Airport). This money would organise (ie pay for) WORK and be interest-free and non-inflationary. When we allow this.
11

danbob,

16/06/2008 09:06:38
11# Did the article also point out to you that buying a saver/cheap day may not be valid on certain trains anyway. Restrictions may apply on certain trains, that is why the normal saver is more expensive. Somebody doing this cheaper option for example at 6 am on a Monday morning may get a shock. The article is full of holes.
12

danbob,

16/06/2008 09:19:21
11# It's passengers who dont listen. It goes like this.
0830 Monday morning,
(passenger) "Can I have a saver single from Leeds to London Kings cross please"
(booking office) That will be £78 sir, your ticket is valid on the 09.10 train and all subsequent services.)
(Passenger) Thank you, and then goes and boards the 08.40.
Well done that man, your arrogance has just cost you £103. This is played out dozens of times every single day.
13

sleekit,

16/06/2008 09:19:33
As a train guard, I'm wondering where the news is in this article. In fact, there's an article just like this one published every six months or so in one of the papers - I believe The Times was the last to point all this out.

Also, First Scotrail staff don't operate the travel centre at Waverley, that's National Express.
14

Aesop,

edinburgh 16/06/2008 09:24:51
Re-nationalise the whole rail infrastucture. Competition is bogus in this industry.
15

danbob,

16/06/2008 09:37:02
14# We know it's not news, but let them have their no news day story.
16

OddJob,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 09:50:36
So it's really old news and yet nothing has changed? Way to defend the train companies guys!
17

Roy,

16/06/2008 09:54:41
"The fare anomalies derive partly from the nationalised British Rail era more than a decade ago, when fares were jacked up on some routes to reduce overcrowding, to save buying more trains."

In other words, the railways make the fares high because they don't want you to travel on their trains.
18

Mister Niceguy,

16/06/2008 10:19:55
I've known this for years. Now the cat is out the bag I guess my ticket prices will rise with demand from others doing the same.

The funniest experience was when I needed to travel Edinburgh-Wolverhampton. Using thetrainline.com the single fare showed as something like £70. But when I looked at Edinburgh-Crewe it was down to something like £25. I then picked up a Crewe-Wolverhampton standard single for a few pounds. The funny part was that not only was I able to reserve the same train - I was even given the same seat!!!

To be fair to staff, I'm told that the travel centre at Waverley are actually very helpful in finding these fares when asked.

I would never use the phone lines though. I have heard of all sorts of rip-off fares.
19

kenbo9,

16/06/2008 10:20:11
Virtually every train from Glasgow to Perth and onwards stops at Stirling so hardly an issue.
20

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 16/06/2008 10:27:54
Doesn't this all depend on the time of travel? The difference between peak time travel and off... peak can be incredibly scary and criminal...
21

Andrah,

Embrugh 16/06/2008 10:34:27
It's well known you can save money on rail travel by careful planning of a journey. The web sites also make it clear that you can save by booking singles. Tickets to Edinburgh are often at a premium.
In the last few months I have saved a lot by breaking a journey from Manchester to Edinburgh in York, and Wigan to Edinburgh via Glasgow Central/Queen St. If the system is "rationalised" it will no doubt mean raising all to the highest common denominator.
22

danbob,

16/06/2008 10:35:44
Cannot see why you are moaning up their in Scotland anyway. You can buy a saver ticket into all you major cities as far as I am aware with no time restrictions at all. In England there are restrictions on saver tickets into London, Bristol, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, York, and I am sure there are more besides. A large portion of your network is electrified, you have pretty modern rolling stock, especially in the SPT area. Millions spent upgrading Waverley. Subsidised fares in the Strathclyde region. And I hate to say it but one of the finest lines in the world, the West highland line. Try life as a commuter in London.
23

Vox Cavalier,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 10:36:15
"First ScotRail, as a commercial operator, may have a vested interest in the status quo. But it is not like a bus company or airline. It is, in effect, a public service operated by a private company. About two-thirds of its annual income (£282 million in 2006-7) is from the Scottish Government – ie, taxpayers". So, every citizen of Scotland subsidises the company at the rate of around £56 per year.

Why not fix a fare structure like some Central European countries do e.g. yy Euros per kilometer? 250 Km journey = 250 x yy Euros. First class is the above rate + 50% If, indeed, the Scottish Government is financing the system to the 2/3 extent alleged, then they should INSTRUCT Mary Doll to implement such a rational structure.
24

Alan B,

16/06/2008 10:36:15
With record of numbers using rail u would think that prices should be coming down and not up.

Do not really agree with discount fares. Would be better to have a consistent pricing that is transparent.

Would be more interesting if articles about trains had abit more depth to them. for instance with so many passengers and prices high, what would it take for the trains to break even. How many lines are subsidised etc.
25

Alan B,

16/06/2008 10:44:16
#danbob

Scotland has to stop just comparing itself to england and be more outward looking. If england has a poor train system why compare urself to that, much better look to those countries that have good rail networks.

"Try life as a commuter in London."
London(south east) has the most extensive rail network in the UK. London also has the excellent underground system. Yes london is a big city and should have those things. But lets face it what other uk city has a good and extensive underground system.

That does not mean there cannot be improvements. Southern rail services had old rolling stock although they are now being phased out. The tube could do with more capacity due to the huge numbers of travellers. But part of the problem here was prices were actually quite low (incomparison to taking a train service). Although i think the prices have been slowly being pushed up over the last decade.

26

danbob,

16/06/2008 10:49:57
26 Alan# I agree with you there Alan. The problem with discounted fares and subsidies is that it takes away the rail operators need to protect revenue. Take Glasgow central as a classic example. They do ticket checks at peak times only. The rest of the day how many are travelling free is anyones guess. But the first group arn't bothered because the taxpayer will pick up the tab in the form of huge subsidies. In effect the honest paying passenger is paying twice. Some years ago GNER decided to do barrier checks at Peterborough. They were astonished to discover that they were losing £30,000 a day in lost revenue into that station alone. This is being played out across the whole of the UK.
27

Cramondo,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 10:51:06
If people are going to start buying rail tickets like this (and I do so myself for some journeys) they'd better do it by phone or on the internet or the queues at Waverley will become unbearable.
28

danbob,

16/06/2008 11:05:39
27 Alan# Replying to you latest post. Honestly I dont think scots realise sometimes just how good their rail network around the central belt really is. It is better than most UK cities. Other than London, only Glasgow has a form of underground. Granted it is a bit restricted but useful non the less. Building the low level cross city link was a master stroke as well. I know that a lot of cities look at Glasgow with envy.
29

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 16/06/2008 11:18:28
Just reading this newsitem got my head reeling.

It appears you need a lot of time and specific planning procedures and aggressive tactics to get the lowest price.

You also have to know the right questions to ask and put up with comments such as "How do you know this?" from company representatives.

We don't have such local or scheduled train service here in Canada - everybody just jumps in their cars and clogs the already-overcrowded highways.
30

Cramondo,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 11:44:33
Another "barrier" in the way of buying tickets in this way is that, unless collecting pre-booked tickets, the ticket machines only issue tickets for travel from whichever station they are located.

I can't imagine that will change since it is not in the interests of the operators.
31

Mise,

Borders 16/06/2008 12:03:45
#1 If you could write a book about anomalies, I suggest you do so, as the information would be invaluable to everyone else.

#11 What you say is fair, however when I did purchase a ticket at the ticket office, I wasn't told that it wasn't valid before 9.30, so when I got on the 8.50, and the guard refused it, I refused to pay more.
After a stream of abuse, and much swearing, the guard took my name and address, though fortunately, nearly seven months later I've heard nothing more.
32

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 12:24:20
Shock horror - what sensational news! Most people who travel regularly by train already know this, so I can only assume Alastair Dalton either doesn't travel much by train or has his tickets paid for by the company. That National Rail Enquiries are clueless is hardly a surprise either - it would be news if they did what the name suggests! The only problem with booking separate tickets is having different seat reservations, although people seem to take less notice of them these days (probably because of the increase in companies not honouring them).
33

danbob,

16/06/2008 12:25:22
33# You may not be out of the woods yet. I have just signed a court statement for a case of verbal abuse going back 9 months. Northern rails debt recovery and prosecutions dept for example will bring a case at a date, time, and court of their choosing, as long as it is within the legal time frame aloud.
34

Nic83,

16/06/2008 12:35:52
This may be old news but I think it's worth publicising as much as possible. Customer service for rail travel is atrocious and the policy of not detailing cheapest fares must be borderline illegal.

I tried to book Edinburgh-Inverness online and not only did the site show the £20 cheap option was unavailable at the time I wanted, but it also included a bus transfer from Perth. I was expected to pay £40 odd for this.

When I went into the station I got an incredibly helpful ticket man (a rare thing) who told me not to trust the website and spent several minutes searching through options for me. £20 it was, at the time I wanted.

A rare example of excellent customer care in an otherwise terribly run service.
35

Alan B,

16/06/2008 12:37:17
#danbob

I agree Glasgow and strathclyde (from SPT) has a relatively decent transport system. It is the most extensive train system outside london.

The problem with the scottish network is more outside SPT. One thing that i noticed was how poorly linked the central belt towns are with the major cities. Getting from say livingston to glasgow is a joke.

I would like to see a new edin to glas link on the south side running every 10 mins with 9 stops, stopping at only 3 of them. This would mean that every stop would be serviced 1/2hrly. I think it is important our central towns give people access to the main job markets. (the glas - ed link i propose should take not more than 1/2hr).

The main proplems i see with scottish trains is they are overcrowed at peek times and they are slow. Prices also mean that it is expensive to use.



36

JayJay,

Right here 16/06/2008 12:43:20
The real scandal here is that Coco the Clown and the Marquis de Sade appear to be in charge of UK Transport policy.
Car? Tax on fuel, VAT on fuel, tax on car insurance, road pricing, congestion charge, road fund licence, highest car prices (still) in Europe, with VAT on top.
Fed up with all that tax. Take the train. Oh and you should know that we privatised that, so best not travel at peak times if you don't mind. Busy see, and unreliable, and hideously expensive. You might not get a seat, and might get slightly p'd off when you find that the outrageous ticket price does not mean you are entitled to a seat.
Buses? Privatised that as well. Bit less expensive than the train, but likely to be stuck in the same traffic jams you used to sit in all snug and away from the guy who sneezes all over you, or the annoying kids, or the boy with the giant headphones and that tinny hiss.
How on earth can Europe do trains and integrated public transport when all we appear to offer the commuter is Hobsons Choice?
37

jazzmann,

leicester 16/06/2008 12:49:06
This has been known about throughout the UK for years . Suddenly it`s exposed by the Scotsman !!!!!!

Get a grip or fire the so called reprters and editor
38

Willie,

16/06/2008 12:53:11
Normally an article i might read and then ignore apart from the fact that on Saturday I tried to book a trip from Glasgow to Normanton near Leeds. Down the West Coast back the East Coast.
I thought I had found the cheapest but the fun came when I tried to book it. For two hours I tried and then had to use Fort William Railway Booking Office at an increase of £8 on online price. Thanks Virgin and National Express.
39

danbob,

16/06/2008 13:03:38
Nic83 36# The first thing that you are told as a guard when it comes to revenue matters is this. "You must always sell the passenger the cheapest ticket available for the journey they plan to make" What sometimes undermines this is old outdated by-laws. It is all very well changing names of tickets to simpler names like advanced etc. This is just window dressing. I work from Leeds and can save a passenger £300 on an annual season ticket to the town of Skipton 26 miles away by telling them to buy a season ticket Leeds - Cononley. Cononley is the last stop on this route approx 3 miles from Skipton, and then a ticket from Cononley - Skipton. In effect buy two tickets and save £300. What stops me? I will tell you what. The fact that in place is the by-law which states that the train must call at the station at which the ticket is valid to. And not all the trains do this. Should the passenger inadvertantly board the Leeds - Carlisle train for example, their ticket is invalid. This is just a small part of the problem. The whole railway ticketing structure needs ripping apart and sorting out. Not window dressing which is what we have.
40

Alichay,

Dundee 16/06/2008 13:05:36
Dundee is particularly cursed by these fare anomalies as I found out four years ago when I moved here. This IS newsworthy - people are paying more than they should every day due to the convoluted pricing structure on the railways. It's one thing coming up with thousands of combinations to get a cheap long distance ticket but a two stop journey like Dundee to Stirling? I have found that it really depends on the station staff- I only found out about the difference in fare when the staff at Stirling station told me how to get a cheaper ticket.
41

danbob,

16/06/2008 13:08:17
Willie 40# If you are still online may I ask what was the problem.
42

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 16/06/2008 13:26:37
When you're expert in spread-betting, hedge-financing, and private equity stunting, the fares structure makes absolute sense.

Otherwise the customer is merely buying a ticket to go from A to B.

So she and he deserve all the fleecing they can get. Like wise if they'd bought a car and tried this too.

We also do property speculation and bulding piddly flats which we sell to great profit to us. Railtrack ? to be honest it's a side line.
43

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 16/06/2008 13:33:39
"All advanced-purchase tickets were renamed advance in May, while fares bought on the day of travel will be renamed anytime and off-peak in September.

He said: "The simplification is in name only. The same number of fares exist after as before.""

I have to say that this has not been my experience so far. I travel to Dundee about twice a week by train from Glasgow. I usually try and book my tickets online and since the "simplification" referred to above have found it virtually impossible to buy one of the new advance singles, which at £6 are very attractive.

This is certainly a news worthy story despite the comments made by some posters.


44

Buckpool Loon,

16/06/2008 14:26:18
Ah the railway's. The ongoing story of dirt and grime; of opaque scenes and even foggier fares; of convenience - inconvenienced; of journeys morphed into bum ached endurance and stomachs rumbled by the threat of salomonilla while your knees glow from the friction of the plastic seat in front.

Travel by rail! they say. While the cost of a single from Crewe to Inverness is double that of going by car.
Think of the environment! they say. Who's I ask? Mine, or the railway's; or perhaps the worlds. For all of those reasons they exclaim. Fine, I say, then make it clean and convenient and value for money;and provide a service fit for use not abuse.
45

Mise,

Borders 16/06/2008 14:41:51
About 1 month ago I needed to go from Edinburgh to Inverness - spend the weekend there, then to Aberdeen and spend a few hours there, then back to Edinburgh.

Initially, to my surprise, I was quoted £107. The rail booking service quoted 67.80, but I knew it would be cheaper to get an advance return Edinburgh to Inverness via Aviemore, and Edinburgh to Inverness via Aberdeen - and indeed I was quoted £22 for each return ticket.

However, having almost decided to go by bus, I tried the next day on the website, and found I could get rail singles (not available the previous day) - Edinburgh to Inverness via Aviemore £8.90, Inverness to Aberdeen £7.50, Aberdeen to Edinburgh £8.90 - a total of £25.30.

These fare variations are ridiculous.

In future, I would like to try splitting journeys into smaller segments, in order to reduce the fare. However, how does one discover what the optimum segments are ?
46

Andrew,

Regular rail traveller with the cheapest tickets! 16/06/2008 17:50:28
1 (and you're correct 5) Find me a Glasgow-Dundee/ Aberdeen (or Glasgow-Inverness) train that DOESN'T call at Stirling or Perth!?!?!
47

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 16/06/2008 18:20:27
We once took pride in our trains and railway network. We'd built it ourselves. Engineering was in the blood. Now that we've been downsized to "Brits", nostalgia reigns (visit a bookshop and read all about it) and complaints are the order of the day. And the powerfull "roads lobby" emerges from the woodwork, not on behalf of hauliers (who these days are also great complainers) but solely as a money scam for a financial elete. Providing us a service? Not on your Nelly.

There's no graffiti at airports or on planes (unless it's paid advertising). I'd hope not too when we've P-P-paid £29M for a £7M new terminal (Inverness). Perhaps the thought of going on holiday transforms the loutish habits of contemporary Britland. Just wait in the queue and pay your TAX.

Road hauliers are often based in small towns and villages and employ local people. They are very efficient and effective at what they do. Are UK MPs representing them and getting parity with the EU operators? I don't see it.

A national rail network should compliment this local initiative. But freight will not transfer to rail until it's linked to the A road system by new depots.

Take a deep breath and realise that only a Scottish Government allowed to issue scottish money (in effect credits) ONLY and immediately for essential national infrastructure will drag us, perhaps screaming, out from UK Grotland. EU money and "inward investment"? Keep whistling. The successful Irish tactics were yesterday's option. Desist from wishful futile thinking.
48

Adso,

16/06/2008 19:13:50
I think this article is newsworthy - I didn't know all of this. Must say I am not too surprised. I got a train on Friday, Taipei to Taichung (about 120 miles) walk up to the ticket office, £8, seat reserved, train leaves in 5 mins - journey time 35 mins including 2 stops. The wonder of High Speed Rail which the UK will no doubt never enjoy.

Last Monday I had to buy a single ticket Edinburgh - Aberdeen. Distance similar, no seat reservation available on purchase, price approx £40 travel time 2.5 hours.

Interesting that the train guard 'danbob' on this thread is defending the policies - but cannot be bothered to read the article which both mentions the point about stations and times. I wonder how he ever ended up getting abuse from a passenger!!!
49

Jwil,

16/06/2008 19:25:26
"The Association of Train Operating Companies, which represents firms including First ScotRail, confirmed that ticket sellers were not required to tell passengers the cheapest way of buying tickets for their journey.

A spokesman said staff were obliged only to inform customers of the cheapest ticket for the journey they asked for."

The Government can surely twist arms on this as these organisations are getting public money.
50

Mise,

Borders 16/06/2008 19:47:52
Does #51 work for First ScotRail or are they a guard ?

I can't see any difference between "the cheapest way of buying tickets for their journey" and "cheapest ticket for the journey".


51

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 16/06/2008 21:05:44
Toytown Railfranchisers can call themselves what they like but afaik ATOC has not built one item of new rolling stock. Likewise track improvements. Electronic sensors have been installed (quite impressive) to tell them merely how bad it has got.

Is this a way to run a railway network? This seperation of key functions and the sub-contracting lark is the very worst way to go. Unless (as happens) you're a CEO and pay yourself a £100,000 bonus for charging passengers more for an inferior service. (It was only a 3 year job anyway.)

The customer comes first, then the empoyees, after that the shareholders. This hasn't done Porsche cars any harm. Their customers don't want the front of their expensive machines to look the back end of a bus.

Start from there.
52

Mad Jock,

East Lothian 17/06/2008 11:43:55
I sometimes travel from the West coast of Denmark, Esbjerg, to Copenhagen, a journey of about three and a half hours. I can do this journey for about £28, first class. (It's called business class there). The train is usually bang on time, within a minute.
It's certainly not such a crowded network as the UK in general, but no better than Scotland's. Because of the frankly criminal taxation on car purchase in Denmark, most long journeys are done this way.
I know it's not necessarily like for like, but it is an example of a rail system that runs for the passenger's benefit.

 

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