Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Old Firm's hate and violence culture shown the red card

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 08 May 2009
FOR decades murder, stabbings, violent assault and battered wives have been accepted as an unalterable shadow cast by the floodlights of Old Firm football.


Yesterday, armed by disturbing statistics that prove a drunken crime wave is triggered by Celtic and Rangers games, the Scottish Government and Strathclyde Police launched a major initiative to reclaim the tarnished sporting spectacle.

While violence inside football stadiums has dropped, it has risen in the back streets, the pubs and the family homes of Strathclyde during the 24 hours that surround the game.

Serious violent crime has surged by 113 per cent during the past three Old Firm matches, while domestic abuse climbed by 41 per cent and anti-social behaviour by 28 per cent according to figures compiled by Strathclyde Police.

Justice secretary Kenny MacAskill said Scotland had reached "the tipping point" and drunken violence around the game had to stop. He described the statistics as "stark and shameful."

British Transport Police said the number of incidents it dealt with during Old Firm matches increased by up to 175 per cent. The match at Ibrox tomorrow is the final SPL clash between the Glasgow teams this season. Strathclyde Police has drafted in 1,000 extra officers this weekend as part of a high-visibility campaign aimed at reducing violence. They will patrol bars to ensure alcohol is being served and consumed responsibly and visit homes with a history of domestic abuse.

Officers will also carry out bail and curfew checks as part of the operation, which has the backing of Rangers and Celtic.

Yesterday Stephen House, the chief constable of Strathclyde Police, said: "In the run-up to the match and up to 24 hours after the match we experience an increase in violence and anti-social behaviour which is very noticeable and extremely worrying.

"Drink, elation, rivalry, anger – none of this is an excuse for violence. We are going to come down hard on the people who are responsible for the violence, whether it is domestic abuse, stranger attacks or attacks on gangs driven by football rivalry."

The survey by Strathclyde Police found levels of serious violent crime had peaked twice this year, on Sunday 15 February and Sunday 15 March, on both days Celtic played Rangers. On 15 February there was 39 serious assaults and one attempted murder, the following month there was 28 serious assaults and four attempted murders. The normal Sunday average is 15 serious violent crimes.

Domestic abuse incidents have also peaked on two occasions since December, again both dates coincide with Old Firm matches, (Saturday 27 December and 15 February) with 193 and 185 incidents, compared to the average of 123 incidents.

Yesterday, the chief executive of the SFA, Gordon Smith, said the Old Firm was one of the biggest football occasions not just in Scotland but the world, and that both clubs and the SFA fully supported the crackdown.

He said: "It is important that at the end of the match, we are talking about what happened on the pitch, not being embarrassed by events off it."

Yesterday the chief constable insisted that neither club held any responsibility for the trouble that occurred.

Chief Constable House said: "These are huge teams – Celtic and Rangers are in the fabric of Scotland, there is a culture going back years. There is a rivalry, based, decades back, on religious beliefs and of course there is still an element of that. The clubs don't do anything to promote the violence – they do the opposite, they try and reduce the violence."

Dr Joe Bradle, a senior lecturer in the department of sports studies at the University of Stirling, said: "The day of a Rangers and Celtic match is one that can make spectacularly manifest Scottish society's well established predilection for alcohol abuse and violence. The link with domestic violence and a Rangers and Celtic match is the massive rise in the communal consumption of alcohol and the well-known problems that over indulgence brings".

Independent MSP Margo MacDonald said: "I would not say that domestic abuse is connected to Rangers and Celtic. I think it is more to do with the amounts of alcohol and disappointment with the turf accounts and the result"

Last night Kenny Scott, head of security and operations at Rangers Football Club, said: "The figures are indeed disturbing and Rangers Football Club join the police in condemning those who commit such acts. It is, however, a problem which cannot be laid solely or simply at the doors of the Old Firm clubs.

"The police themselves have concluded that the majority of offenders do not in fact attend football matches. Instead it would appear that offenders are largely found amongst those who over indulge in alcohol in licensed premises for excessive periods on the days of Old Firm matches before returning home and engaging in violent behaviour."

Death and violence on the streets

VIOLENT clashes between rival football supporters after Old Firm matches have claimed a number of lives in recent years. Dozens have also been arrested for other serious crimes.

Medics say hospital admissions in the west of Scotland more than double on days when the clubs meet.

Rangers supporter Frank Fenwick, 24, of Ayrshire, was stabbed to death in December 2000 after a long-running feud with a Celtic fan.

Celtic fan Mark Scott was another victim of Old Firm rivalry which spiralled out of control – he was knifed to death by Jason Campbell, whose family were linked to the UVF, in 1995.

In September last year, Celtic coach Neil Lennon was attacked by two Rangers fans in the west end of Glasgow.

David Whitelaw and Jeffrey Carrigan were jailed for two years after punching the star to the ground and kicking him in the head and body as he lay unconscious in Ashton Lane.

The attack started after the men tried to taunt Mr Lennon about Rangers' 4-2 win over Celtic earlier that day.

In September 2006, violence broke out after an Old Firm clash as Rangers fans went on a rampage in Glasgow city centre.

About 30 supporters sparked a mini riot as they marched up the High Street towards McChuills, traditionally a Celtic fans' pub.

But violence has not always been confined to Glasgow.

The final Old Firm match in the 2004-5 season was followed by an eruption of sectarian violence across the west of Scotland.

In a series of bloody clashes in the aftermath of Celtic's victory at Ibrox, shoppers were left shaken as fans fought running battles in Glasgow, Lanarkshire and Dunbartonshire.

A riot broke out on the Troon to Larne ferry service as up to 100 rival fans clashed on their return journey to Northern Ireland after the game.

In December 2002, rioting erupted in Derry after Celtic fans began taunting their rivals during the Apprentice Boys' annual march.

Comment: Unacceptable face of Scottish football

ALCOHOL-FUELLED violence, disorder and anti-social behaviour has absolutely no place in Scotland. It is completely unacceptable to think that, because there is a high-profile football match on, it is OK to drink excessive amounts of alcohol and commit acts of violence.

Recently published figures indicate a higher than average level of domestic abuse, serious violent crime, disorder and antisocial behaviour coinciding with Old Firm football matches.

It is clear that there is a problem that may have previously been accepted by society yet not fully understood.

But let's be clear; the fault does not lie with the clubs. The responsibility should be placed firmly on individuals who get drunk and engage in this type of unacceptable behaviour.

In our experience, this type of violence is caused almost entirely by people who have not been at the game, are drunk, and who think that because there's a football match on, it is an excuse to conduct themselves in a violent manner.

To say drinking to excess is a cultural issue in Scotland does not mean we should accept this. We no longer accept drink driving and smoking in pubs so why should attitudes towards drinking to excess and related violence be any different?

Strathclyde Police is committed to stamping out this kind of behaviour whether it is on the day of an Old Firm game or any other day, and this major crackdown demonstrates that.

The force will focus additional resources and activity on proactive and preventative measures and partnership working before, during and after the game.

It doesn't matter who is playing, there is never an excuse for drunken violence and disorder on the streets, in our pubs and clubs, or in our homes.

• John Neilson is Strathclyde Police Assistant Chief Constable.





The full article contains 1452 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 07 May 2009 9:22 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: The Old Firm
 
1

I-Mac,

08/05/2009 00:06:10
I recall the police making a statement about a rise in domestic violence after a Scotland game. A major part of the problem is the abuse of alcohol - and those involved in the violence are often not people who have attended the games but folk who have watched them in the pub or while drinking at home.
2

­­,

Dr Sir Murray Reid MBE DSO and BAR, 08/05/2009 00:54:37
Take away the hate and the violence...and what have we got left to fill the void???

McCaskill is a Hibs fan...what does he know about Football.
3

S'me,

Edinburgh 08/05/2009 01:22:15
Its Scotlands shame.......
4

senza nome,

08/05/2009 02:23:32
2; He knows the score last night,1-0 to the Hibees.
5

,

08/05/2009 03:00:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 08/05/2009 04:27:19
Maybe the solution would be to force the 2 clubs to merge.

They could call it Glasgow United.

It might even improve their prospects in Champions League, rather than always having to compete in the losers competition, the UEFA Cup.
7

Angoos,

Baku, Azerbaijan 08/05/2009 05:35:24
#7 Have you been on the sauce already ??

This issue is all down to alcohol. To much, people lose the plot and use the sectarian card as an excuse to go on a drunken rampage.

As one poster previously stated, there was an increase in domestic violence after the Scotland v Italy game.

Alcohol abuse is the cause of this scourge.
8

Colin Wilson,

08/05/2009 06:43:31
"... and battered wives have been accepted as an unalterable shadow..."

As an John Forsyth wrote in yesterday's Herald, close to one in five DV incidents recorded by Strathclyde Police on those weekends involved a male victim. That is far higher than the year-round average of one in eight.

"The final Old Firm match in the 2004-5 season was followed by an eruption of sectarian violence across the west of Scotland."

It's stating the totally obvious to say that these people are NOT motivated by religion, and this is NOT a sectarian conflict. All this is a re-enactment of the Irish conflict, which is less about religion than about ethnicity and politics.
9

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 08/05/2009 06:49:29
As far as so-called "sectarian" violence is concerned, I should add that most of the people involved probably have no religious belief at all.
10

donald anderson it's me,

glasgow 08/05/2009 07:20:03
#7 is quite right and an amalgamated Glasgow United, wearing green and blue, has often been muted and ignored by the authorities. Short of deporting them and their bigoted fans to England this seems the obvious solution. Any football team trying to regroup along the same lines should be barred immediately. Only when this divisive sore has been expunged will Scottish football come into its own.

As the John Reids and Brian Wilsons well know these divisions are necessary for Unionism's divide and rule traditional bankrupt policies. There is no logic to bigotry and an easy tool to use amongst the growing underclass of our society.

Gone are the shipyards, factories and mines where at least some social interaction was possible. Now we have third and fourth generation of alienated unemployables growing up in run down housing schemes, dressed as lumpen Old Firm supporters from the cradle to the grave, from their prams to their sectarian pubs and to Labour and Unionist brainwashing. From Brigton to Larkhall and Roystonhill to Coatbridge these fans have always weighed in the Labour Unionist vote. Just look at the mercenary Old Firm Labour MPs.

If you want to fight for Ireland you go there and fight the Brits. If you want to fight for Scotland you stay here and kick them out and their lumpen Old Firm culture with them.
11

robespierre,

somewhere sunny 08/05/2009 08:00:45
"Gone are the shipyards, factories and mines where at least some social interaction was possible. Now we have third and fourth generation of alienated unemployables growing up in run down housing schemes, dressed as lumpen Old Firm supporters from the cradle to the grave, from their prams to their sectarian pubs and to Labour and Unionist brainwashing. From Brigton to Larkhall and Roystonhill to Coatbridge these fans have always weighed in the Labour Unionist vote. Just look at the mercenary Old Firm Labour MPs.

If you want to fight for Ireland you go there and fight the Brits. If you want to fight for Scotland you stay here and kick them out and their lumpen Old Firm culture with them."

Quoted from post 12, donald anderson it's me,
glasgow 08/05/2009 07:20:03.

Where does Donald Findlay fit into your demographic? Let's not blame the poor people who are really the victims of bigotry. Either Old Firm identity has been constructed by the political ambition of the educated, wealthy and powerful few. Perhaps, all will be fine if we eliminate them!
12

Stan Butler,

08/05/2009 08:02:56


There's some ignorant twaddle being posted about this subject.

The problem isn't the football. It's the drink.

These matches lead to excessive amounts being drunk.

If there wasn't so much drunk there would be less violence.

If there was another event which resulted in the same over consumption there would be the same level of violence.

13

robespierre,

08/05/2009 08:13:58
Yes, let's have a bit of enlightened twaddle, please!
14

Zulu George,

08/05/2009 08:24:31
Whats Wrong with Coatbridge. "Little Ireland"
Gartsherrie is the place to live.
15

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 08/05/2009 08:33:11
#14 Stan, (Lord Foulkes') Butler.

"The problem isn't the football. It's the drink."

So what do you propose as a solution?

Ban Drinking?

Or Maybe just Ban Drinking for Rangers and Celtic supporters?

Pretty difficult to accomplish, when most shopkeepers can't even recognize an under-age consumer, how do you expect them to tell the difference between Rangers/Celtic fans and Adult Humans?

Other than the sloped forehead, one eyebrow, drooling mouth and knuckles dragging on the ground they are hard to spot.
16

redcliffe62,

08/05/2009 08:39:49
i rather like the idea of a glasgow united, edinburgh united and dundee united, with dundee that is.
and perhaps a professional league of 10 teams based on population rather than culture.
i am sure others can improve on this 5 minute effort, but how about this?

1/ glasgow,
2/ west of scotland (st mirren and clyde and morton)
3/ edinburgh, (hibs and hearts)
4/ central belt (livingston and falkirk and bathgate), 5/ inverness and highlands,
6/ aberdeen (and peterhead,)
7/ stirling shire.
8/ perthshire,
9/ south western scotland (ayr and kilmarnock united,)
10/ borders (dumfries and annan and stranraer and gretna)
11/ dundee united (including dundee)
12/ lanarkshire, (motherwell and airdrie)
all these teams and others senior and junior teams would have to be feeder clubs and contribute to their regions teams.
start from scratch, and this will aid the attempt to get rid of religious bigotry.
not that celtic or rangers would approve.
they scrapped the old league based on european ethnicity in oz and in 2 years clubs had huge followings as they could identify with their region.
no more croatia macedonia, serbia or italian, and many others, all australian based on geography.
17

robespierre,

08/05/2009 08:45:31
Alcohol is certainly a reason for the aftermath of violence that follows Old Firm games. However, the clubs seem to be cleared of any blame because they don’t dispatch orders for these moronic attacks themselves, but does that really make them irreproachable? Is there not also a link between violence and sport, on top of the widely accepted link between violence and alcohol?

Consider the example from Greece in April, 2007, when a mass brawl broke out in a car park less than 20 miles outside Athens. Was it an Athenian derby football match? No. The other sport associated to violent supporters in Greece, basketball, perhaps? No. It was volleyball - women’s volleyball! The two teams were Olympiakos and Panathinaikos; the ladies volleyball branches of the two large football teams. Roughly 300 fans battled with chibs, knives and rocks, leaving one man dead. All team sports were consequently postponed for two weeks. A similar occurrence took place in Italy in February of the same year. Alcohol cannot be blamed in a country where the people customarily take three hours to not even finish a half pint. Violence is inherent in the sports of football, basketball and volleyball in Greece, because the teams participating in these sports nurture and tolerate a ‘partisan’ support.

This is equally true of Celtic and Rangers, Barcelona and Real Madrid, etc. Where there might even have been justification for using a sports team to make political statements in the past, it has transformed into an excuse to exercise machismo and sectarian hatred. Have these clubs left their pasts behind? I don’t think so. Many, many people are culpable of inciting this kind of violence or, at least, are guilty of washing their hands of any responsibility.
18

Sgian Dubh,

08/05/2009 08:46:46
#11 Colin Wilson,

Sorry, I was a passenger on the Troon to Larne ferry that evening. Along with the obvious addition of alcohol, two shouts stick in my mind immediately before the first punch was thrown. 'G** S*** the Q****' and 'F*** the P***'. It seemed to me that religion has a lot to do with it. I know when I was a boy in Glasgow, when you met other kids the first question asked was 'What school do you go to?' Not to comopare schools, but in most cases it pointed to what religion you were.
I would integrate the schools.
19

Sgian Dubh,

08/05/2009 08:49:03
I am also surprised we are allowed to comment on this article and wait patiently for the abuse to flow and the comments to be shut down.
20

gus1940,

Edinburgh 08/05/2009 08:52:51
Scotland will never become a mature and respected country until such time as Rangers & Celtic and everything associated with them are expunged from the face of the earth.

Ban the clubs.
Confiscate all their assets.
Demolish their stadia.
Ban the sale of any club memorabilia.
Any other club infiltrated by or trying to attract a bigoted support be given one warning and if it happens again suffer the same fate as above.
21

Scunner,

Aberdeen 08/05/2009 08:54:43
Old Firm = Scotland's shame!!

The quicker the OF join the English league the better.
22

Sgian Dubh,

08/05/2009 08:59:22
Restrict or ban the Northern Ireland contingent of fans at both club games. Ban the selling of 'Ulster' and 'Ireland' flags outside the respective grounds.
23

Mike S,

08/05/2009 09:04:21
Religious differences are just an excuse for violent tribalism. Has anyone carried out a survey of the die-hard "fans" to see how many of them frequent their respective churches on a Sunday to practice their avowed faith?
24

robespierre,

08/05/2009 09:06:12
To 22, 24, and some others.

Banning all these objects will only turn hooligans into freedom fighters, in their own eyes. The cycle will continue as they will claim themselves to be champions of their respective causes, which will breed new generations of thugs. Think about what might cause someone to want to buy an Ulster flag or an Irish Republican flag to begin with. Isn't stabbing people already illegal? - it doesn't seem to work as a deterrent to violence, so how will broad forbiddance of memoribilia change their mentalities?
25

Mallory,

Edinburgh 08/05/2009 09:25:57
Why not just ban these 'events', or at least play them under floodlights at 4.00 am?
26

Nelson51,

Newcastle 08/05/2009 09:28:52
#11 Colin Wilson,Aberdeen.

You are quite right, these people are called hypocrites.
27

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 08/05/2009 09:43:25
Celtic and Rangers still feed off sectarian differences in West, Central Scotland which are deeply ingrained in their support.

I hope UEFA, FIFA, and the chairmen of the English Premiership clubs are watching as a "state of emergency" will have to be policed this weekend when Celtic and Rangers football clubs meet to play ONE fixture.

In Northern Ireland it is claimed that over 500 extra Police will be on duty to deal with the fallout from this match.

Rangers fans like to taunt their rivals with the Famine Song?

Its just a pity that both groups of bigoted supporters couldn't follow each other out of Scotland to somewhere like the dark side of the Moon!
28

Stan Butler,

08/05/2009 09:43:29

#27 AIasdair

The violence associated with these matches isn't perpetrated by those attending, it's by those who watch the game in pubs.

Clearly you know nothing about the subject.

29

Stan Butler,

08/05/2009 09:45:49

The police are talking up this weekend's match and the potential for trouble.

Rather like the Met did before the G20.

I wonder what their agenda is?

30

AJ Fife,

08/05/2009 10:08:44
#22 has the solution. Scotland would be a better place without the Old Firm and in particular, the union loving Ibrox mob.

I'll never forget Donald Findlay's attempts to brainwash the Rangers support into opposing devolution. Luckily there are still some proper and right-minded Scots amongst the Gers hordes.
31

Mark Insch,

08/05/2009 10:10:07
#18 Redcliffe62

See you missed out Fife - was that a deliberate ommission? Can understand if it was - with the Pars, the Blue Brazil, East Fife & the Rovers, methinks you would have a team that was hard to beat - a bit like Celtic now!!
32

,

08/05/2009 10:13:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
33

,

08/05/2009 10:18:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
34

fiferjohn,

08/05/2009 10:25:43
you only have to look at this deeply enough and it is caused by a lot of the troubles in the world RELIGION.
it is drummed in to them as kids. most of them have probaly never been to church let alone know the bible.
all they are taught is if catholic you hate the pordastants.
it is also on both sides they are taking the irish outlook and not developed a scottish out look.
35

Stan Butler,

08/05/2009 10:38:53

#33 AIasdair

Have you ever been to an OF match?
36

Stan Butler,

08/05/2009 10:42:13
#37 CLARK KENT A LOT

So you're going to dictate how children are educated and what songs people are allowed to sing.

It seems that in your wee world people will be completely free to do exactly what you tell them to do.


37

Stan Butler,

08/05/2009 11:06:52
#41 AIasdair


Were you in uniform?
38

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 08/05/2009 11:27:31
Watch out folks Mr Butler has a hatred of uniforms of any stamp.
39

Captain Harry,

08/05/2009 11:29:52
The police obviously figure this is a game Rangers are going to win since as an earlier poster remarked, Rangers fans slink off home after a defeat but as the Celtic Shame Game of 99 proved, Celtic fans cannot handle a defeat. If Rangers win are we going to see another three pitch invasions, assault of the referee and another sky dive from the main stand because that's what the Celtic fans treated us to ten years ago and it was labelled the Old Firm Shame Game by a press too chicken to call it like it was.
40

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 08/05/2009 11:32:41
OF = Scotlands shame and a total embarrasment worldwide. Anyone who says religion is not a factor obviously has not grown up in Scotland.

41

,

08/05/2009 11:52:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
42

Bigwull,

edinburgh 08/05/2009 11:56:04
45 spot on.
43

Tartan Viking,

08/05/2009 12:08:00
#5. senza nome

Your wee naff Riorden should have been sent off. To gesticulate in front of home supporters shows just empty headed this idiot is. He's part of the problem, not the solution.
44

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 08/05/2009 13:01:09
It is lamentable how both sets of supporters make out they are a paragon of virtue compared to each other!

Both teams play in the SCOTTISH Premier League.
Yet, one set of schizophrenic supporters owes its allegiance to Ireland whilst the other schizoid group see themselves as English?

Wherever Celtic and Rangers go, trouble follows.
Ask the good people of Manchester, and every other footballing destination where the supporters of both clubs have caused mayhem and violence, and brought their clubs into disrepute!
45

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 08/05/2009 13:18:51
#37 - Kilmarnock fans sing "Paper Roses". What has that got to do with a game of football?
46

Shug the Dug,

Edinburgh 08/05/2009 13:51:23
Let's blame the demon drink. And why not? Doesn' access to drink always spark trouble? Last weekend there were 14 top level rugby league teams playing in 7 important Super League fixtures at Murrayfield. Drink was readily available throughout the stadium and back fields.

There was no segregation of fans. inimal police presence. And no violence. I was thee on Sunday with my wife and had a fantastic day wtching some brilliant rugby played. Plenty of physicality on the pitch but nothing off. Players address the match officials with respect. the crowd boos any illegality or dissent on the pitch. First time I've ever been to a rugby league match but actualy, apart from the techicalities of the game, little to choose between the two codes. People were all in execellent spirits an everyone had a fantastic time. Could anyone ever imagine similar with the round-balled game?

I've watched crowds at football and have always wondered how the hell they know what's happening on the pitch because most seem to be more pre-occupied antagonising opposition fans than watching the game they profess to love so much.
47

Captain Harry,

08/05/2009 14:15:56
*50
And that's just from the above report, eh? No coincidence that the above report which began fairly balanced but degenerated into a thinly veiled Rangers are worse than Celtic diabribe was written by a man who helped Cardinal Soon There'll Be No Protestants At All Winning write his memoirs. Think McGinty would've been chosen for that job if he wasn't severely on message?
The Neil Lennon thing? The dogs in the street know that Lennon was pished and looking for a fight that night, the fact that he got one doesn't excuse the guys who assaulted him, it just goes to show that Lennon is a man who is comfortable stoking the flames of the old firm divide.
48

,

08/05/2009 14:22:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
49

I-Mac,

08/05/2009 14:34:50
"Let's blame the demon drink. And why not? Doesn' access to drink always spark trouble?" (#53)

It's very often a contributory factor, whether there's a football match or not. A huge percentage of offenders are under the influence. Rugby fans attempting to point-score over this is itself an unsavoury spectacle.
50

Stan Butler,

08/05/2009 15:33:24
#51 Mr. Lachie Todd


'Wherever Celtic and Rangers go, trouble follows.
Ask the good people of Manchester, and every other footballing destination where the supporters of both clubs have caused mayhem and violence, and brought their clubs into disrepute!'


Like Seville you mean where Celtic fans caused so much trouble that both UEFA and FIFA praised the Celtic support?

Celtic have played all over Europe without trouble.

Celtic are invited to play more testimonial games in England than any other club in the world. There's never any trouble despite the huge number of travelling fans.

Don't lump the two sets of fans together.

You may, for your own reasons, which I can only guess at, have issues with Celtic, their supporters and what they represent, but that's no excuse for telling lies.


51

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 08/05/2009 15:45:47
#52 - 'cos they're only imitation....
52

Dylan fan,

Planet earth 08/05/2009 16:03:46

Well, I probably don't qualify to speak to this subject, but that has never stopped my yet! lol
I couldn't help but notice that at a photo of a football game in Scotland,,, the crowd was all male..
Is this the case? Here in the US, women go too!
If somehow these teams could blur the lines of association... I must admit, I was not aware of religious animosity in Scotland... Political differences, Management vs. Labor mixed with mucho macho, mixed with drink..No wonder the women stay home or go shopping...
53

Shug the Dug,

Edinburgh 08/05/2009 16:08:59
#56 I wasn't point scoring, just pointing out that drink in itself isn't the problem. If a person chooses to drink to excess even that need not be a problem to anyone else. People should not be allowed to hide their own culpability beind drink. If you can't control your temper when drunk and want to remain civilised then don't get drunk, simple as that. But if you lose your temper, get into a fight, or commit any other offence and was drunk at the time, it cannot be accepted as an excuse or even a cause. I have been drunk many times, been in the company of drunks many times, but the company I keep don't feel the need to show off their pathetic machismo by fighting. It's a cop out!!
54

archie pellagow,

stonedyke 08/05/2009 16:13:35
why do so many people think that this is a uniquely scottish/old firm problem?football violence happens everywhere.anybody remember the pictures of someone dropping a vespa inside a stadium in italy?how on earth did it get inside the stadium in the first place?what about the scenes that go on regularly in istanbul?in berlin,frankfurt,athens,rome,amsterdam,marseille etc.etc.?scotland is still quite harmless in comparison.close your eyes and think of england.
55

barbour,

Perthshire 08/05/2009 16:30:23
#61
It took a long time before some di$khead compared the sectarian violence with the English,but if you wait long enough then the one brain cell some folk possess will stir re archie pellagow.
Surely it does not concern us what other hooligans do in their own country but what our home grown one's do in ours.Put our house in order before commenting on others!!!!
56

Wee Pal Joe,

08/05/2009 16:50:23
"Celtic have played all over Europe without trouble" (57#)

Unless you count stuff like Celtic fans battling with Spanish police at Vigo airport then forcing an airliner into an emergency landing. Spare us the Parkhead propaganda.
57

,

08/05/2009 16:53:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
58

archie pellagow,

stonedyke 08/05/2009 17:10:41
#62 barbour jacket-my most upright apologies mr.einstein but you haven't quite gotten my point on this one."scotland's shame" is a phrase-fashion created by the media. well i like to go for having an opinion of my own-if you want to join the mindless bandwagon then go ahead.while we're at it i just happen to be a celtic supporter and yes i am a catholic (at least on paper )and yes i am of irish descent, and before i forget,born and bred in glasgow.and as a matter of fact i am not ashamed of any of these "characteristics" apart from all of that i just happen to be quite a "travelled" person, i speak, read and write 2 foreign languages and know from experience that all nations have something to be "ashamed" of.more than once in my life have i been on the receiving end of physical or verbal abuse because of what i am.but on thing i shall never be is an ignorant clueless snob so away an get yer jaicket waxed.
59

W Smith,

Middle East 08/05/2009 17:16:52
So the SNP want to lecture us on sectarianism now, eh?

Is the same SNP that had contact with Sinn Fein in 1982?

http://news.scotsman.com/politics/SNP-fallout-that-saw-Salmond.5086372.jp

60

Ugly George,

08/05/2009 18:47:19
#57 Stan Butler (Cybernat Troll)

Everywhere I go on these threads, there you are...spouting lies, often contradictory, in defence of what?

Certainly not the Union!

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Track/6698/memo/celtic.html
61

Stan Butler,

08/05/2009 18:49:36
#63 Wee Pal Joe

'Unless you count stuff like Celtic fans battling with Spanish police at Vigo airport then forcing an airliner into an emergency landing'


Unlike you I was at Vigo airport and saw the riot police attack Celtic fans. The fact that one of the fans who was attacked was the nephew of the then Celtic Chairman and former deputy Governor of The Bank of England Brian Quinn meant that the press reports of the incident made clear what happened.

As for the plane being diverted it was a hysterical over reaction to a very minor incident.

Hardly comparable with the repeated disgraceful behaviour of Rangers fans, is it?

Remember what Ian Archer said about them back in the 70s

"This has to be said about Rangers…as a Scottish Football club they are a permanent embarrassment and an occasional disgrace. This country would be a better place if Rangers did not exist".

They haven't changed, have they?
62

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 08/05/2009 19:28:24
#69 Now we know why you hate the military, you are an apologist for one half of the sectarian bigots.
63

,

08/05/2009 19:43:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
64

Media at One,

08/05/2009 20:22:19
I have a theory regarding the OF fixture -

First up, I dont believe there is a religious divide because almost none of the fans are genuinely religious, thus the sectarian aspect that is synonamous with the fixture is a side effect of a social disorder that has existed for many decades.
The Dole - This system of hand outs to people with no ambition, no pride and no hope is supported by government on the basis that paying them to lay about is cheaper and less intensive than finding them jobs - the results are catastrophic, all day drinking, smoking and in some instances drugs purchased on tax payers money leads to violence and sometimes fatalities. The fixture becomes an excuse to vent the already piled up anger and frustration of living in a country that can be as depressing as the weather.
Take away Rangers and Celtic and level the two stadiums, destory all emblems and flags and wipe them from our memories - THEN launch two clubs, one called Emerald and one called Saphire and see what happens! HATRED will exist, secterian chanting will exist, violence will exist and drunken bums will exist because THAT IS SCOTLAND!
65

BOTOB,

08/05/2009 20:38:54
Media, 72

Your opening statement is true - the rest of your post is horlicks.

About 20 years ago one of the newspapers conducted an Entrance Survey at Celtic Park and at Ibrox, and found:

1/ at Celtic Park circa 7% going in were Catholic (liberal definition)
2/ at Ibrox a much smaller % was Protestant. I think it was circa 2%.

I'm sure it would be much less now - in both cases.

So, it's NOT a religious divide.

But there certainly IS a divide - so what kind of divide is it?

I would characterise the divide as the clash of an inclusive Club v an exclusive Club. An 1888 Club with a proud history of charity, decency, that has always been open to all v a 1873 Club built on bigotry and badness.

In your own sad way, Media, you have succumbed to bigotry yourself. Your call to destroy emblems and flags is shameful and grossly intolerant....not what we'd expect from a civilised man from Denmark, eh?
66

Libertarian!,

08/05/2009 20:42:55
The dreadful legacy of hate by a minority on both sides of the religious divide within our Scottish nation, has been that of shame, violence and savagery in so many instances.

What a shame there is still minorities indulging in such wild behaviour in the year 2009. It would make one really ashamed of being Scottish.
67

BOTOB,

08/05/2009 20:48:54
Libertarian, 74

There is no religious divide in Scotland.

Scotland - and particularly West of Scotland - is steeped in deep rooted anti Catholic bigotry, with various institutions (such as the Orange Order and The Rangers FC) existing to serve that bigotry.

Thankfully the patience of decent people for these bigoted fools is fading fast and many of those who acquiesced for decades - such as the SFA - are turning against the evil in our midst.
68

Wee Pal Joe,

08/05/2009 20:52:03
#69,

So the trouble at Vigo airport involving Celtic fans was the fault of the police? I wonder if you'd accept that explanation if it was Rangers fans involved.

As for Celtic fans forcing an airliner into an emergency landing, it happened and several of the fans were convicted in court.

Trust me, plenty of other bad behaviour by Celtic fans is available.
69

Media at One,

08/05/2009 20:53:17
BOTOB

I did not say we must destroy flags and emblems, I said you could if you wanted but you would still encounter the same problem.
Scotland is socially ill, the dole, the reckless behaviour of school children, the mindless yob culture, the out of control drinking,the reward of luxury jails for prisoners and the hand out system of take what you want for nothing leads to a society of intollerance and disrespect.
I dont care how your clubs began, both are sick to the core - You can spill as much bile as you like about one being a shining example of charity and goodwill but in the eyes of many you are little more than IRA sympathisers on a mission of hatred. As for Rangers fans, let them claim that their songs stem from their hatred of the terrorist supporting tic fans, but deny them the right to condone their songs because no matter how you look at it, singing the songs they sing is beneath even the lowest form of life.
You may look at Celtic through green tinted glasses with lenses made of morality - but I can assure you that your club like its foe, is a disgusting and vile dispenser of hate -
DEAL WITH IT!
70

Wee Pal Joe,

08/05/2009 20:53:23
"a 1873 Club built on bigotry and badness" (#73)

In fact, unlike Celtic, Rangers FC was founded with no religious assiociations whatever.
71

BOTOB,

08/05/2009 20:54:52
Joe, 76

Revelation for Joe:

amongst Celtic's global fan base (estimated by the Club at circa 10 million) there are some bad guys.

72

BOTOB,

08/05/2009 20:56:25
Joe, 78

Yep, Celtic FC was found by a Priest, Brother Walfrid. We're very proud of that.

We're also proud that the Club has always been open to all. Unlike The Rangers FC - a bastion of anti Catholic bigotry.
73

BOTOB,

08/05/2009 20:59:44
Media, 77

What you actually said:

"Take away Rangers and Celtic and level the two stadiums, destory all emblems and flags and wipe them from our memories...."

Unacceptable, Media. Shame on you.

Stuff about sickness in our society - I agree.

Stuff about Celtic supporters - wrong.

Stuff about Rangers supporters - wrong.
74

Media at One,

08/05/2009 21:01:51
BOTOB

And another thing - your chip on the shoulder, I feel sorry myself because I am a victim, is an absolute disgrace - get a life, grow up and stop whinging like a child. Are you a man or a fu#kling mouse?
Orange Orders, Catholic Schools and Rebel Song strongholds not to mention all your other blinkered shlt is the shlt YOU ALL contributed to - So take your petty little "im a victim" krap and grow up!
75

BOTOB,

08/05/2009 21:03:36
Media, 82

Oh what a vivid imagination you have.
76

Media at One,

08/05/2009 21:04:35
BOTOB

Do a poll around Scotland and ask the question of every Scot -

"Would you prefer a Scotland with Rangers and Celtic, or without Rangers and Celtic" ?

I imagine all of Scotland would vote for an end to the OF and their disgusting brands of hate
77

BOTOB,

08/05/2009 21:07:43
Media, 84

Aye, mass ignorance and intolerance may well prevail amongst the depraved, sick, lazy gits you described earlier.

I'm sure decent people despise The Rangers FC and their bigotry habit.

Celtic FC has no such form.
78

Media at One,

08/05/2009 21:08:10
And tomorrow you will wish that vivid imaginations were all you had to worry about.

Rangers 1 vs Celtic 3

And then a night of violence, IRA songs, stabbings, hatred and mayhem - Aye, charitable my ar$$e
79

Dún Aenghus,

Scotland 08/05/2009 21:10:41
#79 Joe.
They soon changed that Joe,didnt they?
106 years of blatant anti Catholic bigotry.The no Papist need apply policy of RFC for that period,created the sectarian Frankenstein monster which is now dragging what could have been a world class football club,into continuous conflict with the European footballing authorities.It is a real pity,and I am sure that if Rangers FC could turn back the clock,they most certainly would not repeat their appalling mistakes of the past.
80

BOTOB,

08/05/2009 21:12:21
Media, 86

Oh, your vivid imagination is not my problem.

And the violence and mayhem etc you envisage will occur.

There may well be some Irish Rebel Songs too - but political anthems are entirely acceptable in a confident, liberal democracy.
81

BOTOB,

08/05/2009 21:13:18
Dún Aenghus, 87

RFC is simply reaping what it has sown.
82

Dún Aenghus,

08/05/2009 21:14:48
Oops! 87 for 78....Ah! thats better.
83

Dún Aenghus,

08/05/2009 21:21:41
#89 Old brigade.
Correct The sectarian Frankenstein can only bring more shame on a club which had the potential to become a world class football club.However, the very mention that Rangers FC are about to visit a particular country,immediately puts the police force of that country on the alert and an atmosphere of fear and foreboding prevails
84

Media at One,

08/05/2009 21:23:39
Anyway time for me to leave you proddie hating IRA chanting terrorist supporters and your catholic hating bigotted singing foes
85

,

08/05/2009 21:27:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
86

BOTOB,

08/05/2009 21:30:16
Media, 92

Farewell dreamer.

In almost 50 years of supporting Celtic, having encountered hundreds...maybe thousands?...of Celtic supporters I have yet to meet ANY who support terrorists...... and ANY who hate proddies.

Sorry to burst your bubble, dreamer!!!
87

Dún Aenghus,

08/05/2009 21:31:26
#66 Yep! Thats the same Sinn Fein who have Catholic Protestant and Atheist political councilors the length and breadth of the island of Ireland.How could you possibly consider a multi-faith and multi-culture party,"sectarian"?
88

Dún Aenghus,

08/05/2009 21:40:31
It is to their eternal shame that the SFA remained SILENT,during the worst excesses of Bigotry at Rangers FC.Now they are telling us that they cannot understand why people are behaving as they do. "Ye couldney mak it up"It is worth remembering that a present chief of the SFA was indeed part and parcel of that bigoted machine.
89

BOTOB,

08/05/2009 21:44:42
Dún Aenghus, 96

Aye, and that present Chief Exec once said that he saw children from Catholic schools as "the enemy" as he made an incredible attack on Catholic education.
90

Dún Aenghus,

08/05/2009 21:50:20
#97 Bob
They have for decades been making Scotland a cold place for Catholics and those of the Irish diaspora. However when the "unwanted" band together in a cultural link and decide to have their own schooling system,they are immediately attacked by the bigots who marginalised them in the first place. It just does not add up!
91

canadabhoy,

canada 08/05/2009 23:42:54
#7

step ahead of you - registered team in ontario under the banner of glasgow united - never a problem outside of friendly banter
92

I-Mac,

09/05/2009 00:05:44
Somebody with an IRA song as a name (BOTOB = Boys Of The Old Brigade) purporting to give lectures about bigotry. You've got to laugh.
93

Dunnie,

Canada 09/05/2009 03:15:46

What effing planet are these people from? Pathetic and disgusting.

They are not football supporters: they are sorry excuses for human beings. Eejits the lot! They embarass a proud sport.

94

Ham Mei Si,

Hong Kong 09/05/2009 09:33:58
The alcohol has always been the drug used my our Masters to contol us! How else can They keep power! Drunken brawling and hateful religion conflict between the lower class, has always been encouraged. So long as there is discord among people, then our Lord & Rulers can remain in control! Never believe for one infinitesimal fraction of a second, that alcohol can be restricted nor purchase banned to football fans, or any other gathering of masses of people! Maybe now would be an opportune moment to consider who the football hoolagins are? Are they recognized as worthy of protection from each other? So long as they do injury to themselves, then a more contolled measure of intervention should be considered! Non interferance by the authorities, should be applied and crowd control should be conducted to make certain that the unruly opponants meet head on so that can vent their wrath upon each other with out harming the innocent public! May sound draconian, but there is no other possible way of reaching a solution whatsoever! Cheap and a swift method to resolve the situation, and force the sobered-up rabble to clean up the mess! Anybody else have a better idea?
95

Alba Abú,

12/05/2009 21:19:55
#100 What is bigoted about a song that tells the story of a country's fight for Independence? I think your ignorance of Irish history is the problem here.Now! tell me one line in the words of "the boys of the old brigade"that is bigoted?

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.