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SNP's class-size limit of 18 may be illegal



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Published Date: 25 June 2008
THE SNP's policy of setting a maximum class size of 18 for the first three years of primary schools could be illegal, it has been revealed.
The concerns have come from Edinburgh City Council, led by an SNP/ Liberal Democrat coalition, which has told Scottish Government ministers they will have to introduce a new law if they want to limit classes to 18.

They believe that without a new
law they would not be able to take on parents who want to exercise their right to choose more popular primaries.

It is the latest blow for the SNP flagship policy, which critics had already claimed was not worth the paper on which it was written. The manifesto promise of limiting class sizes to 18 had been watered down to an aim in the government's concordat with councils.

And recently SNP-led Renfrewshire Council sparked controversy by scrapping maximum class sizes in secondary schools to try to impose class sizes of 18 in P1 to P3 classes.

Glasgow City Council refused to try to bring in the smaller primary class sizes at the expense of its secondary class sizes.

Now Edinburgh City Council has said it will have difficulty working towards the new class size targets because "there is no legislation that allows the council to restrict class sizes to 18".

The problem is raised in its formal deal with the government on delivering services, known as the single outcome agreement.

The council believes it cannot use the class size policy as a defence against any challenges made by parents who have not been allowed to send their children to popular primary schools.

Added to that, the council has joined others across Scotland in pointing out that it needs more money to reduce class sizes, with £7.45 million required for 205 new teachers and £16 million to provide new classrooms.

Edinburgh Conservative MSP David McLetchie said: "What this proves is that the SNP policy, which it made so much of during the election, is not worth the paper it is written on.

"What we see here is that the policy may in itself be illegal and an SNP-led council does not even believe it has the power to limit class sizes to 18 in the face of challenges from parents. It goes against legislation that guarantees parents' right to choose."

Fiona Hyslop, the education secretary, did not respond to the legal problem, but pointed out that Edinburgh had falling school rolls.

She added: "We have made clear the local government settlement specifically included a special provision to maintain teacher numbers nationally at around 53,000 in the face of falling school rolls – and that by doing this local authorities can reduce class sizes.

"We have also increased funding to local government by more than 13 per cent over the next three years, providing £34.9 billion."





The full article contains 486 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 24 June 2008 10:12 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Teaching
 
1

walter,

25/06/2008 00:25:24
SNP government policy may be illegal, but this time it is not the big bad nasty unionist councils that are claiming it, this time the SNP council are claiming it.
It is just as well Edinburgh has the Lib/Dems in coalition or it may have been the same as Renfrewshire where the secondary school classes were to be overcrowded just to meet their masters in Holyrood unrealistic policies.
2

druidh,

edinburgh 25/06/2008 00:26:42
What happened to all the stories about the number of newly-qualified teachers who couldn't find jobs? You'd think this would be good news for them?
3

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 25/06/2008 00:44:05
so change the law... no problem here
4

Orson,

25/06/2008 05:35:55
The SNP are as bad as Labour, all quantitive arbitry targets and no qualitive output.

Look at them, trying to get class sizes down to 18 at the expense of giving worse secondary educations. Pathetic.

Everyone knows the single most important factor in a child's development is the parents input at home. Class size at ages 5-7 irrelevant. Some even argue missing P1 to stay at home and play with mummy is better for a child.

But those arguments are based on child development and quality. The SNP are just like Labour, pluck some silly target out the air and monkey see, monkey do.
5

Bridged and tunnelled,

25/06/2008 06:36:53
I think David Maddox means unenforceable, rather than illegal.....

All comes back to the same thing though - unaffordable, unenforceable, impossible to deliver.
6

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/06/2008 07:21:26
1.
Pravda aka Psychonat Cyberbot,
Return to SNP HQ for re-programming, don't claim Labour spin when the second paragraph starts:
'The concerns have come from Edinburgh City Council, led by an SNP/ Liberal Democrat coalition'
Makes us look daft....
7

john z,

edinburgh 25/06/2008 07:59:24
More labour spin. Not a word of truth. Negative, Negative, Labour.
8

carrottop,

Dumfries 25/06/2008 08:01:54
Hearts MIGHT win the Scottish cup and league next year, more Might stories please and no more facts as they are boring.
9

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 25/06/2008 08:14:26
Yes, let's freeze the council tax, hire more teachers, build more classrooms, train more policemen, and have a massive tax-cut with the LIT.

Utter tripe. Where's the money?

10

Iain's,

Barcelona 25/06/2008 08:20:18
RUBBISH!

Expensive private schools have small classes.

If this is illegal, New Old Labour must have them closed. They are still the government after all.

More lies. Keep up the falsehoods whilst you may!



11

SouthernSkye,

25/06/2008 08:25:47
There's many a school in the Highlands and Islands with just a handful of pupils so I do not see any bother in organising a maximum number of 18 throughout Scotland. More teaching posts, better Student-Teacher ratio, more time to address the needs of the children.
Whether it is "illegal" I know not. But it IS a damned good idea. Might even help turn around the social decline and make the children feel they have a reason for being and a place within society? That someone actually is interested in them?
12

Roy,

25/06/2008 08:29:33
If this is to be government policy, is it not the government's job to pass the appropriate legislation. Then, he presto, it IS legal. 'Problem' solved.
13

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 25/06/2008 09:03:30
Yes, change the law. After all, Mr Straw is going to change the law so witnesses can give evidnece anonymously.
14

uno.who,

Livingston 25/06/2008 09:10:08
#6 absolutely correct. It can, in no way, be described as "illegal" as it is not in breach of any law.

I really wish newspapers and politicians would stop using emotive and misrepresentative terms to further personal views.
15

SpellingWizard,

Edinburgh 25/06/2008 09:21:54
I'm with those that disagree with the characterisation of this central Government policy as "illegal".

What the councils seem to be saying is that they will be faced with parents wanting to make placing requests, and that for them to say "sorry- that's school's already full because each class is up to its limit of 18 pupils" might not be enough to reject such a request. The issue would need to be resolved by whatever body decides appeals about placing requests. Ultimately, that might be the courts.

Maybe a journalist could research the background to how placing requests work before the sub-editors invent fanciful headlines? I'm guessing a google search would reveal the answer pretty quickly...
16

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 09:40:33
Ah the "MAY BE" illegal ploy yet again what happened to all of the other "MAY BE" illegal policies? I havent seen any of them taken to court when is this one due before the magistrate?
17

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

25/06/2008 09:58:18
Not illegal in any way, shape or form. To quote Glasgow City Cooncil as being opposed, is pure keech, as in the GCC area many schools have P1a's and P1b's, get the idea, a school is 'oversubscribed' so you split the classes in two, simple really.

I challange any cooncil to categorically deny that they do not do this already.

As for the 'May Be', 'May be' the Hootsmaun will actually print an unbiased political story.

I wonder what the spin from the Hootsmaun will be tomorrow after the leaders of the Devolved Parliament and Assemblies meet in London with the Westminster contingent, given that Eck is going to tell them that Scotland, Wales and N.I.are being 'shortchanged' because of, amongst other things, Central Funding being diverted to London for the Olympics.

18

Alan B,

25/06/2008 10:00:44
A bit weird:

"They believe that without a new law they would not be able to take on parents who want to exercise their right to choose more popular primaries."

If that is the case then councils could have 30-40kids in a class. At some point councils/schools decide how many places are available.

Are we saying that councils/schools do not have the right to determine the number of places in a class currently.

I think it is more likely that is could be open to a court challenge and therefore it would be better to pass a law if necessary to make explicit the policy.

There is no point in a court decision making a mockery of stuff like the legal decision that caused the collapse of a murder trial down south the other day.

#Orson

Disagree with ur conclusions. Yes parental input has alot of bearing on a childs education. But so to does school. To be dismissive of school because parental input can have a major influence on a childs education is silly. It also rights off all those kids who do not have supportive families.

There will always be debates about education theory and the best approach. But there is a big body of opinion that believes in the importance of early schooling.

Put it this way if a kids struggles to meet primary standards he/she is very unlikely to be able to meet secondary education standards. You need the basics.
19

Alan B,

25/06/2008 10:03:28
#Rabbies Wee Bruthir

If there needs to be clarity in the legal position to allow councils to determine class size then there is not reason that the government should not go ahead and bring forward legisaltion.

It does suggest that the inherited situation is incompetent or vague.
20

Andrew, Peebles,

25/06/2008 10:04:24
15.

Not too sure you are right about that. The Local Authority may be making a rule (restricting class sizes to 18) which has no legal basis. This rule could therefore be challenged by disgruntled parents due to the fact that there is no legal basis for it, so I don’t think it is totally unfair for such a rule to be described as ‘illegal’.

However if this rule was made formal law, as some people see as the solution, then I think you open another can of worms in terms of Protocol 1, Article 2 of the ECHR. Which you will no doubt be familiar with.


21

Alan B,

25/06/2008 10:09:28
One think i do not understand.

If u make the first 3 yrs limited to 18 pupils what happens when kids move to primary 4.

Do kids maybe have to move primary when moving to P4.

ie one primary has 2 classes of 18. Another school have one class of 18.

in p4 do u take 9 kids from the first school and move them to the second primary.

Just not sure how this would work in practice.
22

Alan B,

25/06/2008 10:11:17
#Andrew

We keep hearing in the news of kids down south being refused places in popular schools. This becuase there is some limit on number places. Why should some arbitary limit not apply in scotland.

Are u saying the english position fails to meet Protocol 1, Article 2 of the ECHR.
23

Miss H,

25/06/2008 10:23:50
5 - You have that completely the wrong way round. The concordat is based on output agreements so it is output that is measured.

On class sizes I think the issue is that some councils do not agree with reducing class sizes in the first three years of primary. The reason for doing that - so that all children learn to read, write and add up properly - they believe is simplistic.

That's a point of view. Clearly there is not unanimous support for the policy.

The next 3 years however should give us a chance to measure it. Some councils believe they can increase standards without reducing class sizes in primary whereas other councils are doing what the government wants them to. It's not actually a party split. South Lanarkshire Council for example is doing it while some SNP led councils aren't.
24

Miss H,

25/06/2008 10:26:01
22 No children would not have to move school halfway through. In reality class sizes of 18 or less in P1-P3 means smaller sizes throughout primary. There may however be composite classes.
25

Alan B,

25/06/2008 10:28:18
#Miss H

thanks. So it really is in practice class sizes of 18 or less for the whole primary.

"composite classes"
What is a composite class?
26

subrosa,

25/06/2008 10:28:58
# 13

That only applies to England and Wales I believe. Here in Scotland we have no such law and all witnesses must be identified. That's what a solicitor said on radio yesterday anyway.
27

Miss H,

25/06/2008 10:32:07
26 A composite class is where you have a mix of age groups e.g. half P1 and half P2.
28

Andrew, Peebles,

25/06/2008 10:35:27
23.

Who knows? It might. Nobody has challenged it yet.

It would be pretty tricky but I think there is an argument to be made.

29

G,

dundy 25/06/2008 10:38:41
Another example of SNP incomprehension and imcompetance...
They promised this change but have done nothing to make it happen but STILL the SNPites are blaming everyone else or claiming "unionist" carping...
IT is clear that the SNP's true policy of "do nothing so we can't be blamed" is NOT in Scotland's best interest.
30

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 10:42:08
So I suppose private tuition with a class size of 1 "MAY BE" illegal also or private tuition with class sizes less than 18?
Is there anybody out there who actually believes this Sh*te?
31

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 10:43:01
30
Care to elaborate that statement with any details as to how you came to your conclusions?
32

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 10:45:57
"Now Edinburgh City Council has said it will have difficulty working towards the new class size targets because "there is no legislation that allows the council to restrict class sizes to 18"."

There is no legislation in place to say they cant either. Its not a legal issue its a practical one.
The only problem I forsee is getting enough teachers to take on smaller class sizes.
33

Andrew, Peebles,

25/06/2008 10:50:03
31.

You are talking about private and not state education. The difference is quite important.
34

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 10:50:34
"The council believes it cannot use the class size policy as a defence against any challenges made by parents who have not been allowed to send their children to popular primary schools."

What a crock any school can set a limit to the number of pupils it takes for any number of reasons. Staff shortages for one and not only that but there can be restrictions imposed by the HSE on safety grounds relative to building codes.
This is a non issue lets see it tested in court then.
35

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 10:52:03
34

Really and what legal statute is there to show the difference in legal class sizes for the public and private sectors?
36

Andrew, Peebles,

25/06/2008 11:23:11
36.

There is no legislation regarding class sizes in state schools. That is the point of the article. That is why, without this legislation, parents or whoever could challenge any such rule. State schools are set up to provide education for all. Any parent (sort of) would have legal interest to seek a juducial review of such a rule.

Private schools are entirely different. They are independent of the state and don't require legislation to be passed for such rules to have proper authority. They can impose whatever class size restrictions they want. They make the rules up themselves, and if parents like them, they send their kids there. Simple.

A golf club doesn't need legislation to give it authority to accept only certain people as members, does it?
37

The Spook in Leith,

25/06/2008 12:04:07
SNP's class-size limit of 18 may be illegal

Okay then put a bloody asbo on the Fist Minister..utter guff..
38

The Spook in Leith,

25/06/2008 12:04:34
erm First Minister..
39

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 25/06/2008 12:13:56
Increased funding by over 13% to 34.9 billion! With a demand of a freeze on Council Tax! Where do they get the money from? I hate to think that a 'small' 'local' income tax is on the cards.
40

David MacVicar,

Web 25/06/2008 12:15:10
The Scotsman wishes everything the SNP does is illegal wheras Wendy and Labour are guilty of many illegal activities.

The Scotmans has a hangup and campaign about the SNP and legality. A quick search on google for the scotsman website + SNP + illegal - donation (to exclude Wendy and Labour donation scandals) returns 10300 hits.

Of these, here are the most recent articles. Notice a trend anyone?
SNP's class-size limit of 18 may be illegal - Scotsman.com News
25 Jun 2008 ... SNP's class-size limit of 18 may be illegal
Warning SNP's finance plan may be illegal - Scotsman.com News
22 May 2008 ... Warning SNP's finance plan may be illegal - FRESH doubts
Warning SNP's finance plan may be illegal - FRESH doubts were raised yesterday over the Scottish Government's plans to finance the building of schools, ...
Maybe Scot NuLabour should have followed the Franco-Algerian example, declared the SNP illegal and thrown Alex into Saughton or Barlinnie! ...

Local income tax 'would be illegal' - Scotsman.com News
27 May 2008 ...
Westminster accuses SNP of move to ditch EU fishing policy ...
news.scotsman.com/generalpractitioners/SNP-39ignored-Scottish-needs39-over.4023981.jp?CommentPage=1&C...
SNP threatens supermarkets with minimum drink prices - Scotland on ...the SNP tabled over smoking, which in my humble opinion is an illegal law, ...
scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/alcoholandbingedrinking/SNP-threatens-supermarkets-with-minimum.3906446.jp - 304k - Cached - Similar pages
Scotsman.com News - Scottish National Party
Local income tax 'would be illegal' · Downing Street, M

41

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 12:28:50
37

Then where does the illegality come in to it?
On what grounds could parents challange class sizes of 18? certainly not on the grounds that they want their kids to go to certain schools that is complete tripe.
42

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 12:31:23
41

If youre worried the Scottish government doesnt have enough money to spend then vote for Independence they will then have access to all of the revenue raised in Scotland. That will solve all of your concerns.
43

Arfur,

25/06/2008 12:47:43
#42 too right. this rag of a paper has said just about everything that the snp want to do is illegal. soon it will be illegal for an snp party member to f@rt.
44

Miss H,

25/06/2008 12:48:05
38 I suggest that this only happens in smaller schools so putting a cap on class sizes is not the issue.

What the issue is in Edinburgh is that they want to shut schools because of falling rolls.

But what Fiona Hyslop is saying is that in many councils (Edinburgh being one I imagine) they can achieve smaller class sizes just by staying where they are - because school rolls are falling. They keep the same numbers of teachers, fewer pupils, meaning the classes get smaller.

The whole placing request thing is a bit of a red herring I think. It's a much bigger issue in England than in Scotland. In my experience placing requests are made on practical grounds e.g. the pupil goes to their granny's round the corner after school.
45

Andrew, Peebles,

25/06/2008 12:50:29
43.

They could argue that the rule has no legal basis and is causing prejudice to their child.

If the courts agreed, then the rule would be an illegal one.

46

The Tin Man,

25/06/2008 13:11:05
Part of the SNP's education policy would appear to be a hope that couples have fewer childern.
47

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 13:17:05
49

I think we would rather hope more folk like you would qualify for an education rather than falling through the cracks in the system.
48

The Tin Man,

25/06/2008 13:18:16
#50 MisterN

Try reading the article.
49

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 13:20:54
47

They could and they would get absolutely no where because parents cannot be given the final say in which school their kids attend simply because if too many parents apply to the same school than can be accomodated who decides which kids remain and which ones cant? If every parent has the same legal right then the School will have to accomodate all of the applicants even if its physically impossible.
It dont work that way sunshine its not a viable arguement it is a unionist scare story without foundation as usual.
50

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 13:21:38
51

Try being objective and not a troll.
51

My name is in use,

East Lothian 25/06/2008 13:22:04
There are ratio's in place for safety reasons and perhaps this is causing confusion. At present, if a parent outwith the school's catchment area wishes their child to attend a school that has the maximum number of children in the classes then the council can refuse entry.

I don't have any faith in any of our politician's being able to reduce class sizes. A new Eco-School was opened in Tranent last year and doesn't have enough spaces for nursery children (even those who live across the road). There isn't enough space in the school to accommodate the children in the catchment area at the present level of 25 children so there is no hope for reducing this to 18. This new Eco-school will now need to have porta-cabins built (very eco-friendly). The new P1 intake this August will be 2 x 25 children P1 classes with 1 composite.
52

My name is in use,

East Lothian 25/06/2008 13:22:57
There are ratio's in place for safety reasons and perhaps this is causing confusion. At present, if a parent out with the school's catchment area wishes their child to attend a school that has the maximum number of children in the classes then the council can refuse entry.

I don't have any faith in any of our politician's being able to reduce class sizes. A new Eco-School was opened in Tranent last year and doesn't have enough spaces for nursery children (even those who live across the road). There isn't enough space in the school to accommodate the children in the catchment area at the present level of 25 children so there is no hope for reducing this to 18. This new Eco-school will now need to have porta-cabins built (very eco-friendly). The new P1 intake this August will be 2 x 25 children P1 classes with 1 composite.
53

Scorpion54,

Penicuik 25/06/2008 13:24:35
At the moment a head teacher will look at the budget, the number of teachers available and then the number of pupils. He/she will then decide how big the class sizes should be. This is fine. However, if a class size is imposed on the head teacher then they have no choice but to tell parents that there is no place for their children in the school when that limit is reached. Some parents might not be very happy with that decision and will challenge it in the courts.
54

The Tin Man,

25/06/2008 13:24:50
#53 MisterN

Fiona Hyslop stated that she hoped that smaller class sizes would occur by there being fewer childern, and by not laying-off teachers, not me.
55

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 13:25:32
55

So whats the problem of changing the ratio from 25 to 18 apart from staff availablity? all schools should only take in the max number of pupils they can physically acccomodate and if that works out at 18 per class then so what?
56

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 13:26:29
57

Fewer children born or fewer children attending specific schools?
57

Andrew, Peebles,

25/06/2008 13:29:58
52.

I think you are missing the point. Perhaps deliberately.
58

The Tin Man,

25/06/2008 13:30:41
#58 MisterN

I see that it is a challenge for you to read the entire article. Here is the bit you missed:

Fiona Hyslop, the education secretary, did not respond to the legal problem, but pointed out that Edinburgh had falling school rolls.

She added: "We have made clear the local government settlement specifically included a special provision to maintain teacher numbers nationally at around 53,000 in the face of falling school rolls – and that by doing this local authorities can reduce class sizes.


59

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 13:36:06
60

Then why dont you explain it then?
60

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 13:37:16
61

So where is the part about birth rates?
61

The Tin Man,

25/06/2008 13:43:16
#63 MisterN

Even after falling through the cracks in the education system, I can figure-out that falling school rolls are linked to the birth rate.
62

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 14:07:57
64

Falling school roles linked to birth rates? and not say immigration, migration, moving to new areas, flitting, choosing private schools over public?
What happened to all of this talk about Scotland being swampped by immigrant families? none of them tempted to enrole their kids in School then?
and we're supposed to believe youre not a troll why again?
63

The Tin Man,

25/06/2008 14:17:55
#65 MisterN

You are a party-political robot. It would seem that your education did not stretch to being trained to think for yourself.

Anyway, I will correct my previous comment, in light of your illumination, and you may bask in glory:

Part of the SNP's education policy would appear to be a hope that school rolls drop.

64

GP,

East Lothian where education comes second 25/06/2008 14:29:48
The 18 rule is not illegal.
The best performing primary school in Scotland last year had a teacher to pupil ratio of far less than 18 and did not have any classes with 18 in them.
Here in east lothian they have just built a new primary school that is already too small and the class sizes are way over 18. Designed and planned by the previous labour administration.
If we are to be serious about tackling the main issues we face then we have to make education our number one priority. It's as simple as that.

65

Daveunderwater,

25/06/2008 14:33:44
So is it illegal or only legal if a new law is brought forward?

Yet another sweeping, negative, anti SNP statement
66

Daveunderwater,

25/06/2008 14:37:13
Dictionary:
role
(rol) pronunciation

n.

1. also rôle A character or part played by a performer.
2. The characteristic and expected social behavior of an individual.
3. A function or position. See synonyms at function.
4. Linguistics. The function of a word or construction, as in a sentence.

67

The Tin Man,

25/06/2008 14:38:08
There is a bit of a difference between actually setting the maximum allowable class size at 18, and merely advising councils that class sizes should be no more than 18.

Whether or not there are legal obstacles is of little matter - this could be overcome with legislation. However, giving councils advice is very different to producing enforcable legislation.
68

Daveunderwater,

25/06/2008 14:38:14
Dictionary:
roll
(rol) pronunciation


v., rolled, roll·ing, rolls.

v.intr.

1. To move forward along a surface by revolving on an axis or by repeatedly turning over.
2. To travel or be moved on wheels or rollers: rolled down the sidewalk on their scooters.
3. To travel around; wander: roll from town to town.
4.
1. To travel or be carried in a vehicle.
2. To be carried on a stream: The logs rolled down the cascading river.
5.
1. To start to move or operate: The press wouldn't roll.
2. To work or succeed in a sustained way; gain momentum: The political campaign finally began to roll.
6. To go by; elapse: The days rolled along.
7. To recur. Often used with around: Summer has rolled around again.
8. To move in a periodic revolution, as a planet in its orbit.
9. To turn over and over: The puppy rolled in the mud.
10. To shift the gaze usually quickly and continually: The child's eyes rolled with fright.
11. To turn around or revolve on or as if on an axis.
12. To move or advance with a rising and falling motion; undulate: The waves rolled toward shore.
13. To extend or appear to extend in gentle rises and falls: The dunes roll to the sea.
14. To move or rock from side to side: The ship pitched and rolled in heavy seas.
15. To walk with a swaying, unsteady motion.
16. To take the shape of a ball or cylinder: Yarn rolls easily.
17. To become flattened by or as if by pressure applied by a roller.
18. To make a deep, prolonged, surging sound: Thunder rolled in the distance.
19. To make a sustained trilling sound, as certain birds do.
20. To beat a drum in a continuous series of short blows.
21. To pour or flow in or as if in a continual stream: tourists rolling into the city.
22. To enjoy ample amounts: rolled in the money.
69

Daveunderwater,

25/06/2008 14:39:09
Roll call is the calling of the names of people from a list (roll) to determine the presence or absence of the listed people.(also know as a register in countries such as the UK) The term applies to the calling itself, to the time moment of this procedure, and to a military signal that announces it (e.g. by a drum).

Roll calls are used in places such as classrooms, the military, prisons, law enforcement, and camps.

In traditions of some schools, the term Roll Call refers to a general assembly for various daily announcements; see for example the traditions of the Groton School.

The Roll Call of Honor is a ceremonial roll call of honorably fallen people or a list of these people.
70

Andrew, Peebles,

25/06/2008 14:53:05
62.

I would explain it in more detail if it was for the benefit of someone capable of understanding what is being said.

I am not sure you fall into that category.
71

MisterN,

Scotland 25/06/2008 16:47:14
73

Ah so you cant then its all just another troll how refreshing.

66

Or maybe the union controlled press quoted her wrong? or even didnt quote her in full or in perspective? is that possible? I mean I dont know myself I didnt actually hear her say it.
72

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 25/06/2008 16:48:17
Illegal? There are wee village schools here on the rocky outcrop where the entire school roll amounts to no more than 12 pupils! Are the teachers supposed to conscript pupils from elsewhere?

Wait...you don't suppose this headline could be down to misleading sensationalist reporting by the Scotsman? Surely not!!
73

Jwil,

25/06/2008 17:05:09
Ifs, buts and maybes, seem to rule the day.
74

McMadman,

http://scottishreferendum2008.blogspot.com 25/06/2008 17:22:41
Simple solution to this legislatively. No one is saying this is illegal, merely that there is no law in place at the present to explicitly permit this reduction.

Edinburgh Council are pointing this out because, if in the absence of a specific law enabling them to act in this way, they do reduce sizes, they may be open to judicial review for acting ultra vires, eg outside their specific powers.

Pass a law amending the rules (or confirming that they can act in this way) and problem gone. Got to say earlier posts are right, there are entire schools with under 18 pupils. No one has challenged this and this may assist them in their argument if they just go for it anyway and are challenged.
75

McMadman,

http://scottishreferendum2008.blogspot.com 25/06/2008 17:23:29
#77 Meths

Nothing will happen. No resignation, no sanctions, certainly no apology.

Newliebore = sameauldch'te.
76

Nikostratos,

25/06/2008 19:32:01
#82 Meths

Well what do you expect the Internet is not exempt from the libel laws and no doubt some body lost the plot and made scurrilous allegations over Wendy's behavior I bet.

Anyway having paid £1.19 a litre for me petrol which is about £5.50 a Gallon i was wondering what are they charging in Spain.(esapana)(Reino de España) whatever

Mind it has probably gone up again and again..
77

McMadman,

http://scottishreferendum2008.blogspot.com 25/06/2008 19:46:54
#81

No surprise there then. Methinks the dead hand of AM2 is at large again, only this time not only redlining comments but removing entire threads.

Extra, extra, don't read all about it, no comments against the newliebour hegemony ! Jeezo.

Nikos: What's wrong with removing individually libellous or defamatory comments rather than threads ? Isn't this hypocritical of a paper and journos that claim free speech then deny it ?

Comments all removed as of 19.45.
78

Eve,

Scotland 25/06/2008 21:38:02
Parent chosing what school there child gose to SHOULD NOT be put before the amount of children in each class room.

When I was in Primarry school all my classes had about 35 children in a class and my dyslexia was ignored as a result. Ironicaly the Primarry school I went had a reputation of being a good school.
79

,

25/06/2008 22:47:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
80

McMadman,

http://scottishreferendum2008.blogspot.com 25/06/2008 22:49:48
#btw, no 4 is not me any more than "Highland Mighty" is you. I am generally asleep at 5.30 in the morning as I work for a living (most of the time, anyway).
81

,

26/06/2008 00:16:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
82

,

26/06/2008 18:26:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
83

Comment is Free,

U.S. 27/06/2008 16:30:58
Hold the phone. This article is so badly misconstrued that one would think that George Carlin just wrote it post-mortem (may he rest in peace) as a commentary on how bad this "news"paper is.

In terms of policy enactment, the Council in the article has just potentially made it easier for the SNP to enact their proposed policy by pointing out what is lacking in the current codification of Scottish law. SNP just needs to talk to the Greens, Ms. Margo MacDonald and some Lib-Dems or Tories, and then out-vote New Labour.

Second, we were just informed by either the BBC or the Scotsman, at the most distant time in the past being last week and most recent earlier this week, that there is a surplus of teachers presently graduated from university in Scotland. Scotland has the capacity to add the spots to the classroom for this policy because it has the available teachers.

Supply of Teachers = Demand for Teachers--> Successful Policy Implementation.

Once again, Alex Salmond has read his Adam Smith.

 

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Would you like to see the reintroduction of the belt in Scotland’s schools?
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