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I'll still ignore smoking ban, vows publican fined £500

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Published Date: 06 November 2007
A SCOTTISH pub landlord vowed yesterday to continue to allow his customers to flout the smoking ban in England after being fined for offences at his bar in Blackpool.
Hamish Howitt, 55, who was born in Glasgow, was fined £500 and ordered to pay £2,000 prosecution costs after he admitted flouting the ban, which was introduced in England in July.

The owner of the Happy Scots Bar is the first publican south of the Border to be convicted of breaching the law. Howitt, a non-smoker, has been a staunch critic of the ban and set up a political party called Fight Against Government Suppression, or FAGS.

However, District Judge Peter Ward, sentencing Howitt at Blackpool Magistrates' Court, said his campaign had been "silly, misguided and pointless".

Howitt, who changed his plea before the start of a scheduled two-day trial, had faced a maximum penalty of £30,000 after he received 12 summonses.

Mr Ward gave him a two-year conditional discharge for the first seven offences committed and fined him £100 each for the remaining five.

The landlord was also ordered to meet the costs incurred by Blackpool Council, which brought the prosecution.

Referring to the new legislation, Mr Ward said: "That is the law and it has to be complied with. I suggest your campaign has been silly, pointless and misguided. It has achieved nothing. All it seems to have done is cause a great deal of problems for yourself. I do not intend to make a martyr of you by imposing swingeing penalties."

Trevor Colebourne, defending, said Howitt's campaign had been against the government, which he believed had "reneged on its manifesto" that had promised exemption from the law for pubs not serving food.

Howitt said after the case: "We're all going back to the Happy Scots Bar now for a smoke. Someone has got to stop this law, otherwise it will go through like a juggernaut. I was advised today I did not have a skeletal argument to plead not guilty on human-rights grounds, but I won't give up. I'll keep fighting to take this all the way."

Howitt added that he had no intention of paying the financial penalties and was prepared to return to court. Ian Fowler, Blackpool Council's member for business services, said: "I am delighted that this situation has been resolved and Mr Howitt has finally pleaded guilty."

TRIAL PENDING

THE first person to face court charges for flouting the smoking ban in Scotland, introduced in March last year, is believed to be still awaiting trial.

John Wraith, 67, is accused of not putting out his cigarette when asked at the Burnett Arms Hotel in Kemnay, Aberdeenshire, in January.

Hundreds of fixed penalty notices have been issued to individuals and several dozen to premises since the ban came in last year.

Those in control of no-smoking premises face a £200 fixed penalty if they do not take reasonable action to prevent someone smoking. Individuals face a £50 fine.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 November 2007 9:53 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Smoking issues
 
1

druidh,

06/11/2007 00:56:59

It's a pub? It's licensed?? Simple enough remedy there then methinks.

2

Ginster's Pastie,

06/11/2007 01:08:58

"We're all going back to the Happy Scots Bar now for a smoke. Someone has got to stop this law, otherwise it will go through like a juggernaut..."

It's already gone through.

Fud.

3

iRoy,

06/11/2007 01:19:02

OK folks here's a pic of the bar.
Prepare yourselves please:

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1678685089&si...

4

Statsman,

06/11/2007 01:36:14

The man is a hero.

5

,

06/11/2007 02:01:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1119020, Article id was mapped to record!
6

b rogers,

Ohio 06/11/2007 03:02:16

I am so proud of you Hamish Howitt, many bar owners in the states that have smoking bans are suffering terribly. Some still allow smoking even though it is now against the law. I hope they continue to flaut the ban also. Wish everyone would! How else will our voices for freedom be heard. You go Hamish!!!!!

7

langtonian,

scotus 06/11/2007 03:14:18

One of the very few examples where ,

The Law is NOT an Ass.

8

,

06/11/2007 03:28:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1119104, Article id was mapped to record!
9

steve077,

06/11/2007 04:41:10

Remove his license & shut the pub.

10

Jim A,

06/11/2007 06:40:14

Why not have a certain bars for smokers on the condition they install extractor fans that comply with regulations and have to be maintained and inspected annually so non smokers can use the bar as well IF they want to. As a non smoker I think folks who smoke should be allowed to light up in bars if they want to.

11

Cappo Del Monte,

06/11/2007 07:15:31

I admire his stand, but at the same time thank the gov cause ive now managed to stop, but by all means if they did change the law, introduce smoking and non smoking pubs/ clubs, let the individual choose, this nanny state is becoming a joke

12

expatmushroom,

saudi arabia 06/11/2007 08:10:14

The Blair / Brown goverment has destroyed peoples freedoms. Everyone has a right to smoke regardless of the impact on thier health, also everyone has a right to breathe fresh air. If a pub chooses to allow smoking and displays that information then a customer has a choice. Just the same as a pub that has a no smoking policy.

I am a non-smoker whose lost my father and aunt to the effects of smoking.

Oh, while we are at it I hate people who buy Marmite. My freedom shop at Tesco is being hindered. And cars, lets ban cars, buses and planes too. To noisy.

As my daughter says "Get over it". If you do not like a pub then leave. There is always others.

13

Boy Wonder,

06/11/2007 08:15:11

I don't think I'd go into his pub having seen the pic. It looks a right dive!

14

Gilmartin,

Philippines 06/11/2007 08:19:27

Why not ban pubs from selling alcohol? Its unhealthy also ;)

15

iRoy,

06/11/2007 09:29:27

#15

Oh if you think the outside is a dive, wait till you see his "smokers" area!

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1678682923&si...

16

Feemcgee,

Edinburgh 06/11/2007 09:40:19

This bar was called the Crazy Scots until recently, which was fitting, as Hamish is completely off his trolley.

17

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/11/2007 11:04:24

"...said his campaign had been "silly, misguided and pointless"

No. the stupid nazi-state smoking ban is "silly, misguided and pointless".

I wish more publicans would flaunt this nazi-state legislation. It's still not too late.

18

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/11/2007 11:31:26

#21:

And just how do they risk other people's health Jennifer?

There is absolutely no hard evidence to support what you claim and there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

If you don't like the smell of smoke then fine---I don't like a lot of things but put up with them in the interests of the common good. However, please don't pretend that it is harming your health as to do so just make you look rediculous and destroys any argument you may have.

19

Shave,

Edinburgh 06/11/2007 11:38:16

#20

Grow up. It is a smoking ban in enclosed spaces.

It is not forced internment in a concentration camp, forced labour and then annihilation.

20

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 11:43:28

#3,15 and17.
Thanks for those, iRoy. Blackpool's not one of my haunts, but the place looks even worse than I'd imagined, even by Blackpool's standards. Wonder if big Shuggie plans to replicate it in Spain. Only another 240 similar fines to go to swallow up the 600k he's seeking for the place, or a mere 24 offences if the magistrates up the ante.

21

SlinkyJunky,

Weegie Trapped in The Burger 06/11/2007 11:56:35

#22:

Umm... no, smoking gives you cancer. Passive smoking gives you cancer too - it's just a wee bit slower, which is little consolation to your relatives.

Do you honestly believe anything to the contrary?

22

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 12:27:27

#23 and 25.
Shave, Edinburgh and SlinkyJunky, Weegie Trapped in The Burger should realise that petrol head never has much to say other than to repeat the usual line about "stupid nazi-state smoking ban". If he dislikes the legislation so much, why not stand for election like Eddie D.? Wonder whatever happened to him? Planning a revolution, perhaps?

23

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/11/2007 12:29:19

#23:

It is a nazi state infringement of personal liberty. It is rediculous. It has no purpose and it should be done away with.

#25:

Passive smoking does not exist. Period. Active smoking can cause health problems if done to excess but there is absolutely no risk whatsoever to non-smokers from airborne tobacco smoke.

If smoking was a third as harmful as they make it out to be then half the population would be dead or dying. This falacy about "passive smoking" was dreamed up by that well known bunch or extremist fascist antis, ASH and propagated by a government who were too stupid to see the truth and wanted to look good politically.

As an aside, I wonder how many of these vehement anti-smokers who bleat about "passive smoking" enjoyed an evening breathing in fumes from burning rubbish and various types of gunpowder last night? I'd wager that a good many of them did. Yet they have the audacity to moan like babies whenever anyone dares to light a cigarette, pipe or cigar up in their vicinity. Hypocrits to a man (or woman), the lot of them.

24

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/11/2007 12:32:54

#27:

"...petrol head never has much to say other than to repeat the usual line about "stupid nazi-state smoking ban"

Well, you could say I'm following the example set by the government who endlessly repeated the "passive smoking kills" propaganda for about 5 years.

The difference being, what I say is based upon fact. What they said was an utter lie.

25

Generalissimo Hernandez,

06/11/2007 12:40:28

If an old bloke comes into the pub stinking of p!ss, other customers complain, and he gets chucked out.

What makes anyone thing fag smoke smells any better?

26

Arfur,

06/11/2007 12:47:04

Good on the man.

#26. jennifer - you like so many have been fooled well and truly by the scaremongering.

Are you not in the slight bit suspicious that every organisation that want to ban something turn to cancer.

Don't smoke........................gives you cancer
Don't eat a bacon butty........gives you cancer
Don't eat a ham sandwich....gives you cancer
Don't go into those nasty pubs where people smoke................................gives you cancer
Don't fart.............................gives you cancer.

If this really was the case then how come France has a 10 times lower rate of cancer than Brittan.

This when only 30% of Brittan smokes and 60% of France smokes (in pubs and like trains).

So 60% of France smokes (about 40 a day) in pubs where the other 40% are and there is less cancer than in Brittan where 30% of Brittan's smoke (outside). Hmmmmm. Now let me think about that..........duped!

27

Anna,

06/11/2007 12:47:19

Before the smoking ban, if a non-smoker complained of being unable to visit the pub without breathing in second hand smoke, the usual argument from smokers was, "well, if you don't like it, don't go to the pub!"

Using a similar argument, if you don't like the fact that you have to go outside for a fag, then don't go to the pub! Simple.

Funny how that argument seems less attractive now the boot's on the other foot, isn't it?

28

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 12:47:20

#29, Petrol Head.
P.h. fails to realise that what he spouts is only his own propaganda, issued to satisfy his own preferences and to justify his nicotine addiction. November 5th falls once a year in most calendars. Smokers need to expel their effluence on an ongoing basis, till death us do part.
He's still quite free to stand for Parliament, U.K. or Scottish, in this non-nazi state, of course.

29

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 12:58:14

#32, Anna.
I've often sat outside pubs in the past to avoid the privilege of inhaling tobacco fumes. I still sit outside when the weather's mild, but now I have the "freedom to choose".
If smokers feel obliged to huddle out in the cold now to satisfy their nicotine addiction, I have scant sympathy. Have they considered hand warmers, or putting their hands in their pockets?

30

Arfur,

06/11/2007 12:58:46

#31 - that should have been 30%. good maths eh.

31

Arfur,

06/11/2007 13:00:48

no i was right first time.

32

Professor22,

Fife 06/11/2007 13:07:24

No 3 Wrote:

"OK folks here's a pic of the bar.
Prepare yourselves please:

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1678685089&si... "

Hmmmm, Classy Joint!

33

Anna,

06/11/2007 13:16:43

#37

The choice to make your pub either smoking or non-smoking would work fine in large towns and cities, but in villages where there was perhaps only one pub, one group will lose out.

34

colin, crombie,

dunfermline 06/11/2007 13:20:05

i for one have been out socially only twice since the smoking ban came in in Scotland, once at a wedding and once to a 40th birthday party. I still smoke but stay at home, and unlike myself most smokers are now inflicting there smoke on their families and more often than not, their children. And many pubs are now facing ruin and lost jobs as a result. There should be bars where smoking is allowed and it is up to non smokers whether they want to go there.

35

groknroll,

edinburgh 06/11/2007 13:29:09

@ Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head

Sir, I congratulate you on your continuing astute observations (which are clearly made with great risk to your personal safety, this being a 'nazi' state as you continually assert - I only hope you are safe hiding in your Achterhuis, pondering over your diary entries). I thank the heavens that the technology of the internet allows you to communicate your enlightening comments to those who were labouring under the (evidently so false belief) we are living in a democracy.

Clearly, unlike everybody else in this country - including most smokers that I'm aware of - you correctly percieve the true nature and purpose of the ban to be a sinsister collaboration between the government, not-for-profit organisations, and the medical community. I wish I had your insight, and damnation to this oppressive regime that prevents the rest of this country from realising this as you have.

Also, you clearly and repeatedly demonstrate your understanding of the true purpose of internet forums: not as an enlightening and liberating change to the way we can debate topics (and what a 'rediculous' idea that would be!) - but instead a place where we can mindlessly flame topics in anonymity, throw baseless insults at everybody who doesn't share your view, make concrete statements of fact with no evidencing usually ending with the expression 'Period', and generally make any poor soul who happens to browse past your posts wish to god the internet had never been invented and we were back in caves banging rocks together with puzzled looks on our faces.

Good day to you.

36

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/11/2007 13:35:26

David from New Mills has the audacity to cite "freedom to choose" as one of his justifications for this oppressive, nazi-state smoking ban. Unless he has re-defined the phrase in question to mean "What suits David from New Mills" then he is talking pure rubbish.

I wonder how long it will be before he starts his childish bleating about smokers occupying all the tables outside pubs in the summer?

He has also demonstrated a very limited knowledge about smoke and fumes from substances other than tobacco by his comments regarding a bonfire and fireworks. The essence of what he says is that it can kill you if you catch a whiff of tobacco smoke, but it is perfectly OK to breath in burning rubbish fumes and gunpowder fumes once in a while. Presumably, he also thinks it is OK to breath in wood smoke from an open fire every now and again as well.

I'll leave everyone to work out the flawed logic behind those bold statements if they feel they can, but to me it seems that David only wants what HE thinks is OK and sod everyone else and what they think. In other words a hypocritical, intollerant member of the politically correct, anti-everything brigade.

37

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/11/2007 13:37:03

#41:

...and your point is???

38

{x..>Jade<..x},

Southampton 06/11/2007 13:37:25

If somebody owns a pub they should be allowed to decide whether they want it a smokers pub or not. I think it is pathetic that this man has been fined. Even in nightclubs your not even allowed to go outside for a fag/cigerette. People need to look at both sides xx

39

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 13:41:18

#40 colin, crombie, dunfermline.
If colin or other smokers choose to stay at home and adopt the habit of "inflicting there smoke on their families and more often than not, their children", that can only be a matter for their conscience and their own self-centred pleasure of a sort. If they don't wish to inflict it on their families, why do it on others?

40

{x..>Jade<..x},

Southampton 06/11/2007 13:43:00

People need to understand that smokers need to smoke,they dont just do it to act big or anything,most people smoke for stress dont that tell u n e thin? u need to look at both sides!!! If your a smoker you no what its like to be gaggin for a fag. If u dont smoke im sure you used too or have done so you should no wat its like aswell. Of course its passive smoking but its not as if your goin to instantly die izzit. Think of it in both ways

41

{x..>Jade<..x},

Southampton 06/11/2007 13:43:15

ANYONE AGREE OR NOT ?

42

embra,

EMBRA 06/11/2007 13:43:52

even if passive smoking does not cause cancer, it absolutely stinks!!!!! i don't want to be in that environment and by the reaction of the general public since the ban most people agree. one person smoking in a bar will make the whole room stink. if you want a cigarette just go outside - you get to satisfy your craving without everyone else in the room having to breath it in. i really do not see what the problem is.

these people talking about human rights and nazi's really make me laugh - it is so tragic. no one is saying you can't smoke ever, just don't do it in enclosed public places!!!

43

S'me,

06/11/2007 13:45:55

Silly wee man.

44

{x..>Jade<..x},

Southampton 06/11/2007 13:46:06

*45 David,New Mills
Havent you ever smoked?
Your all making it out to be a real bad thing but its just life. So many people smoke dont be so harsh about it

45

{x..>Jade<..x},

Southampton 06/11/2007 13:46:34

whos wee man

46

S'me,

06/11/2007 13:46:47

Howitt I mean.

47

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 13:47:13

#43, p.h.
I think it's called irony, or perhaps even sarcasm, if p.h. couldn't suss it out by himself.

48

{x..>Jade<..x},

Southampton 06/11/2007 13:51:29

oh ok soz

49

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/11/2007 13:52:17

#46 & #47:

No. I don't agree. I smoke because I enjoy it. So do most people. However, I agree with your comments in #44.

#48: Smoke doesn't "stink" as you put it. I lot of people I know (non-smokers) quite like the smell of smoke. In fact, to find someone who genuinely dislikes the smell is the exception rather than the rule.

Even so, it's about tolerance. There are many things that I dislike but I put up with them because I realise that it all part of freedom. No-one likes a moaner and groaner but it seems that in the last 10 years, people have been encouraged to moan about smoking by the government.

If this was 10 years ago we wouldn't even be having this conversation because people were far more tolerant of each other. All this law has done is set people against each other.

Believe me, in time, the same thing will happen with drinking and eating. My advice is to stop it now and go back to a time when people had a "live and let live" attitude.

50

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 13:52:39

#50, {x..>Jade<..x}
No. Thankfully I was never foolish enough to become ensnared by the addiction. If it's no "real bad thing", why should so many smokers try to give it up, sadly unsuccessfully in the majority of cases?

51

Anna,

06/11/2007 13:52:45

Petrol head,

Tell me this. Prior to the smoking ban, where was the non-smoker's "freedom to choose" not to breathe in other people's smoke - other than the "freedom to choose not to go to the pub", which lets face it, isn't really a viable argument, given that most people have a desire to socialise.

Please explain to me why the smoker's "freedom to choose" is more important than the non-smoker's.

And anyway - you can still choose to smoke. Outside.

52

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/11/2007 13:53:31

#53:

Can we get you on Mastermind David? Next contestant, David from New Mills, specialist subject, "the bleeding obvious".

53

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/11/2007 13:54:36

"Prior to the smoking ban, where was the non-smoker's "freedom to choose" not to breathe in other people's smoke..."

It was the choice as to whether to sit in the smoking or no-smoking area. Simple. It worked then, it will work again.

54

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 14:00:36

#42, p.h.
"The essence of what he says is that it can kill you if you catch a whiff of tobacco smoke, but it is perfectly OK to breath in burning rubbish fumes and gunpowder fumes once in a while. Presumably, he also thinks it is OK to breath in wood smoke from an open fire every now and again as well."
P.h.'s befuddled mind is very prone to leap to conclusions, a mental exercise of limited benefit.
The three assertions he has made about my arguments or mindset exist purely in his own mind, as I've made no such statements.

55

{x..>Jade<..x},

Southampton 06/11/2007 14:01:57

who agrees with the smoking ban?

who doesnt agree?

just wonderin by the way

56

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 14:04:18

#59, p.h.
Did it then? Will it really?

57

{x..>Jade<..x},

Southampton 06/11/2007 14:07:38

Everyone goes on like smoking is the end of the world its not?
People choose to smoke same as you mite choose to east chocolate get over it Stop trying to change people. Why arnt people moaning about the pedophiles and things serious like that not smoking its pathetic soz 2 affend n e 1

58

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 14:08:20

#58, p.h.
P.h.'s chosen subject might be "nazi-state influences in a democracy".

59

Anna,

06/11/2007 14:09:06

#59

Non-smoking areas? I can only assume you are having a laugh.

Even if you were lucky enough to have one of these elusive things in your local pub, it was still rather like having a p***ing area in a swimming pool.

60

groknroll,

edinburgh 06/11/2007 14:20:28

Whoa, this thread goes fast.

But seriously, Petrol Head, if I have to tell you my point you ... well, you miss the point.

Fortunately you seem to have toned down some of your subsequent posts this afternoon. My point in the previous post is that the tone of many of your previous posts I've read has been inflammatory, verging on the hysteric with little consideration of other posters logic.

Comparisons with the Nazi regime is, at best, ill-conceived, and worse, deeply offensive. (Please no comments about Hitler hating smoking - he was fond of his moustaches also, does this mean Tom Selleck hates Jews?)

Keep things in perspective a little. If you are arguing so heatedly you have to resort to insults and ludicrous allegations, even if you win, you lose.

61

Shave,

Edinburgh 06/11/2007 14:30:10

Petrol Head

Martyr yourself. Walk into a police station with a lit cigarette. If the police ask you to put it out call them nazis.

62

fred bloggs,

06/11/2007 14:35:18

In places where a smoking ban has been introduced, the number of non-smokers suffering heart attacks has gone down.

64

Rose Leeds,

06/11/2007 14:46:19

groknroll

This might explain the alarm, you will note the similarities I'm sure.

http://www.bmj.com/archive/7070nd2.htm

65

Walkerman,

06/11/2007 14:55:58

It's a bit late to be debating the rights or wrongs of the ban. It was passed some time ago, and we have to live with the results of it whether we like it or not.

BTW, What a classy pub he has! I bet the Buckfast flows freely in that bar!

66

Enrico,

06/11/2007 15:19:56

You'll like this one Mr Bloggs: Quitting smoking causes lung cancer
http://education.guardian.co.uk/egweekly/story/0,,2191509...

As far as the article is concerned, this man's 'crime' was to allow the use of a legal product on his own private property.

Several antis call for him to lose his licence and then slag off the appearance of his pub. Clearly you have no intention of entering, so what difference does it make to you whether he allows smoking or not?

Before this ban businesses, including pubs and restaurants were entirely free to prohibit smoking should they so wish. That was called choice, remember it?

Howitt is a hero.

67

groknroll,

edinburgh 06/11/2007 15:31:36

Rose, thanks for the link to the article which is, as you suggest, interesting reading.

I'd question whether anybody can draw from it the conclusion that all anti-smokers are fascists though (as the author of the article himself makes clear in the last paragraph).

Some things Hitler's scientists did are the same as is practised by the anti-tobacco lobby today. Most are different. The culture behind Hitler's standpoint on tobacco seems to be, from the article, strongly linked into his obsession with racial and bodily purity (the "wrath of the red man" part) which is a somewhat unlikely motive for our government to base policy on.

Hitler hated smoking, he did bad things. Stalin didn't hate smoking, he also did bad things. What are we to conclude from this?

It's difficult to conclude anything as the culture and context are quite different between Hitler, and Stalin, and us. But, certainly, to conclude that all anti-smoking measures are synonymous with Nazism, as our fellow contributor petrol head does, is erroneous in the extreme.

68

Enrico,

06/11/2007 15:34:46

"An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law."

Martin Luther King, Jr.

69

stubar,

billingham 06/11/2007 15:44:55

two world wars to get rid of dictators. troops in iraq/ afganistan and what have we have here self styled dictators telling us what we can and cant do,
all we want is to go to the pub or club for a fag and a pint.
as an ex soldier i think we earned the right!

70

expatmushroom,

saudi arabia 06/11/2007 16:06:33

Stubar, you are right.

The problem is people like Blair, Brown and Bush do not care and continue to trample everyones freedom of choice. Nanny state it is.

Our military paid for our freedom in their blood.

The next election is around the corner lets hope the Bitish people show some sense this time.

71

Ms Fiona,

06/11/2007 16:10:46

I don't think anyone knows whether passive smoking is real or not. But it is a risk which the bar staff are exposed to. A risk which is unacceptable. If you expose a worker to risk which can be minimised, you are breaching health and sfety law. I'm a smoker by the way.

72

Dave M,

06/11/2007 16:13:59

31 Arfur

If this really was the case then how come France has a 10 times lower rate of cancer than Brittan.

----------------

Arfur, France has banned smoking in public places, as has Norway.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6032125.stm

73

Mikey,

06/11/2007 17:22:57

I'm amazed at the shrill, shrew like tones of the anti smoking brigade. What's the problem you all have with smoking and no smoking pubs? Are you afraid that the good pubs will be smoking pubs? Seems to klike you'd rather see a pub close than see it become a choice pub.

What do you all have against democratic choice?

74

Arfur,

06/11/2007 17:48:48

#80. Dave M - It is a well known fact that smoking is part of the culture in France, Majority of Europe is balancing about the 50% mark.

As for your link to the smoking policy thanks but I am well aware of it. I was in the south of France for 4 weeks in July where just about everybody I spoke to and every bar owner and worker laughed at this with the same responce of it was not going to apply to their bar.

Apparently the signs are that so many are going to ignore this ban that the goverment are thinking of a loop hole to save face.

As for the fines (before you come back) allot of majors/politicians have vowed that no fines will be going on in their area. As for numbers who are suppost to be policing this.......nada (normal police will not be doing it)............last few comments were as of July (may have changed since then).

75

Rose Leeds,

06/11/2007 17:49:06

groknroll

Passive smoking was originally invented by Fritz Lickint but I can't find a copy of his Tobacco and the Organism

It seems to have been ignored until the late 80's when synthetic nicotine patches became available, coincidence I'm sure.

http://www.scielosp.org/scielo.php?pid=S0042-968620050010...

76

seanie,

06/11/2007 17:53:36

#36 Arfur

No. You weren't right first time.

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/hea_dea_fro_can-hea...
France has a higher rate of death from cancer than the UK.

And...

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/hea_dai_smo-health-...

The % of daily smokers is about the same.

77

ConcernedParent,

06/11/2007 18:53:08

I think landlords should be allowed to decide in their own bars whether smoking is allowed or not. If you dont like smoking, go to a NON-SMOKING bar..

78

anthony74,

wales 06/11/2007 19:15:25

older men start wars and send young men off to die for them!

these are the same old men that ban people from smoking, saying "you must stop because its going to kill the person sitting next to you"!

these same older men give orders to drop bombs on innocent women and children.

(around the time the smoking band was thought of )
these old men thought to themselves and said you know what? we have made a right mess of Afghanistan and Iraq lets give the country something else to moan about and try to take public opinion off our **** up in the middle east.

looks like its working!

80

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 20:08:13

#72, Belinda C. of Edinburgh.
I'm very much for smoking restrictions. There is no "ban".
"'even if it does not cause cancer' is not good enough. We were told that it endangers non-smokers. If that *may not* be true, it means that we have been lied to."
For the record, and for Belinda's benefit, I do not categorically know that passive smoking is detrimental to my health.
However, I'm happy to avoid that risk, and enjoy fug free enclosed public places. This is sometimes known as a double whammy.

81

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 20:14:28

#71 and 75.
I, too, found the article interesting, as on previous readings, but Tokyo Rose like so many others, conveniently chooses to ignore its last sentence. Perhaps they didn't manage to read it to the end, just choosing to enjoy the general theme. Oh, and I'm still not Lord Haw Haw.

82

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 20:22:37

#77, stubar, billingham.
Servicemen and women and ex-serving members are as bound by the country's laws as anyone else. They have no special exemption.
If they wish to change legislation, they are welcome to stand for the Publican Party, or any other minority group, to have it amended. For those with short memories, this was a group that polled about one half of one per cent of votes cast in the Scottish elections held earlier this year on a manifesto of repealing smoking legislation. Like Eddie D. of S.Queensferry, it seems to have disappeared without trace.

83

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 20:32:44

#88, stef.
"'just keep out of my face', it really is that easy".
For once I find I agree with stef, as I am happy to "keep out of the face" of stef and other smokers as long as they will keep their smoke out of mine, by nipping outside briefly to satisfy their addiction.

84

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 20:42:04

#82, Mandy v. of Cambs.
"It is the intolerance side of it which I believe ph refers to."
Mandy could scarcely have chosen a worse role model than p.h. to plead the cause of tolerance.
See her collection can is back out for the judicial review. So in what decade will that be taking place?
Oh, and how's the revolution going?

85

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 20:56:01

#93, Jim P, Netherlands.
I found Jim P's link educational if not entertaining. It certainly won't encourage me to take up smoking. Just what it will do for diehard smokers I have no idea.

86

Reason - voice off,

06/11/2007 21:32:30

David,
Go to bed. We are all becoming increasingly bored with your posts here and other places.
Please don't respond, it would only be as boring as the rest of your rantings.

87

truthsleuth,

South of the Border 06/11/2007 21:37:01

The man has his rights and so has everyone else.

The difficulty is that if a non smoker is in the pub the smokers environment is not affected by the non smoker.

If a Smoker is in the pub the non smoker knows the smoker is in the pub.


this is at the lowest lovel

At the highest level the smoker is unlikely to contract cancer from the non smokers activity but the converse ist not true.

So the situation comes down to this

I will defend the sdmokers right to smoke provided he will defend my right to 'fresh' air not polluted by cigarette smoke.

Definitions.

packet of cigarrettes - one small box on the way to a much larger one.
cgarette - a dummy substitute.

88

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 22:09:54

#100 and 103.
Bring it on, then. I'm still wide awake, and eager to be enthralled by the intensity of their debate.

89

Rose Leeds,

06/11/2007 22:13:32

Dummy substitute, haven't heard that in a while, I much prefer the new ones, my favourite is Passive smoking makes you teeth fall out.
I told my dentist and she laughed.

90

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 06/11/2007 22:25:57

#101, stef.
Stef seems to have trouble grappling with the concept of restrictions as opposed to the situation of a total, complete and unilateral ban.
I am not remotely interested in the health of stef or other diehard nicotine addicts, but am happy to keep their fumes "out of my face", thanks to current legislation.
In this non-nazi state, I shall feel free to comment on the Saddoes' Scots Bar (didn't it look really enticing!) or any other topic as I see fit.
Should we ever be in the same pub, stef is welcome to stay put out of the cold, but with unlit cigarettes, cigars,shishas, joss sticks. or pipes.

91

Ileach,

07/11/2007 00:10:13

The City in the US where I currently reside was one of the first (rabid mayor) to enact a smoking ban in pubs, bars and restaurants. They have had to back-pedal, though, because my favorite Irish pub has smokers there at all times of the day and night, whether food is served or not. The law apparently will not hold water for very long.
BTW, last trip to Ireland - what a pain! Go to the pub, try to order a pint, only the bar attendant is standint outside having a smoke (I thought it was he and his colleagues who were to be protected by this ban)? I am a non-smoker myself.

92

fred bloggs,

07/11/2007 09:26:22

'Mild elevations in Dopamine are associated with addictions. Nicotine, cocaine, and other substances produce a feeling of excited euphoria by increasing Dopamine levels in the brain. Too much of these chemicals/substances and we feel “wired” as moderate levels of Dopamine make us hyperstimulated – paying too much attention to our environment due to being overstimulated and unable to separate what’s important and what is not.'

Hence the above rantings...

93

Reason - voice off,

07/11/2007 10:04:22

Nos 90 & 91

Methinks you might have hit the nail squarely on the head!

94

Rose Leeds,

07/11/2007 10:17:08

stef,

I only woke up with the smoking ban, take a look at the history of some of the previous laws, they don't just pinch them from the Tories.

95

anthony74,

07/11/2007 11:40:06

thanks m8.

-------------------------------------------------------------

i smoke and still do i was dead against the smoking ban to begin with, but i think its saved me from dieing a much sooner death from liver failure than dieing from cancer i don't go to the pub anymore!

all those that agree with the smoking ban might think its a victory for them, but wait till the government start suppressing your human rights. the smoking ban is only the start of more things to come that will effect you - me - everybody.

you only have to look at coverage on T.V to see the debates in the house of commons and the way the politicians act, its not hard to see this country is run by a bunch of morons.

they are more concerned about who had the first idea to higher the Inheritance tax than running the county, they go to grate lengths in try to mock each other like its some childish school yard banter.

if they put half the effort in to sorting out other more serious issues than staying up most of the night thinking of jokes they can tell in the commons the next day then this country would be a far more prosperous place to live in.

96

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 07/11/2007 12:16:08

#108, stef, Edinburgh.
Sorry to have to correct you, pater, but current U.K. legislation is that smoking is not permitted in enclosed public places, including "public" houses, and subject to a very limited number of exemptions. This does not per se constitute a universal "ban".
Furthermore, I did not state that I did not like Big Shuggie's establishment, rather that it looked particularly unenticing in the pictures so kindly provided by iRoy. I did wonder whether the latter had mistakenly sent pics. of somewhere in Beirut, or some South American shanty town.
If it's of any consolation to old stef, I don't often drink in Blackpool, so he's fairly safe to go there during the Edinburgh Fair holidays.
Even without R.v.o.'s good advice, I went to bed early to hone the mind and rest my weary old hardened skin.
Shame to note that excitable stef didn't follow the same course of action, but was apparently frothing away as ever on his keyboard in the early hours, like some mad composer or novelist who couldn't sleep until he hed recorded his "thoughts", perhaps?

97

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 07/11/2007 12:19:49

#106, Rose Leeds.
I trust her teeth didn't fall out in the process.

98

Arthur,

07/11/2007 13:11:32

It should by now have become abundantly clear to
all that what this smoking ban has done is polarised
the arguement, and highlighted the selfishness on both sides.
Prior to these prohibition orders most smokers, myself included, were increasingly considering the needs of the non smokers, similarly non smokers usually asked politely if smokers could keep their smoke away from them. Now non smokers demand and castigate because they are now part of the self righteous majority who have discriminatory law on their side, whilst more smokers who smoked reasonably and considerately before being criminalised, now take the attitude of up you, you don't care about my needs, don't expect me to care about yours, I will smoke wherever I can get away with it. It is all indicitive of how selfish society is becoming and how this sad process is promoted by government. My only solution is
http://www.electronikcigarette.co.uk
This is not a spoof, I use it regularly wherever I like
there is no law against it and it supports my needs as a smoker without endangering or annoying anyone else. I would like to see all smokers using these in public spaces as a protest which would make an abject mockery of this contentious, divisive, and unneccessary law. It also costs half as
much as smoking the real thing and means you are not paying the tobacco barons excessive profits or
the exchequer extortionate taxes.

99

{x..>Jade<..x},

07/11/2007 13:12:12

you should all be worried about more important fings not smoking. Its pathetic that all the non-smokers are moaning about passive smoking and the smell(get over it) If people want to smoke its up to them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

100

{x..>Jade<..x},

07/11/2007 13:14:03

OMG sum1 get david away go back to politics or something your boring us all !!!!

101

{x..>Jade<..x},

{x..%Southampton%..x} 07/11/2007 13:20:58

Can any1 think of anything else more important tahn just SMOKING?!!!!!!

102

,

07/11/2007 13:39:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1123075, Article id was mapped to record!
103

,

07/11/2007 13:45:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1123094, Article id was mapped to record!
104

{x..>Jade<..x},

Soton 07/11/2007 13:47:55

Go back to your smoking habbits and im sure people are bored of you!!!! i care about the important things in life not about giving people lectures on smoking i smoke you probably used to and im sure all them years ago you remember being a kid it may of been decades ago but im sure if you jog your brain back you will remember

105

groknroll,

edinburgh 07/11/2007 13:58:09

Excellent work, and commendations to whichever regular contributor created the colourful alter-ego {x..>Jade<..x} to brighten our day. She wins.

You go too far though, as by now IT IZ LEIK TOTALEE OBVIOUZ SHE IZ NUT REEL!

Get thee back under thy bridge, forum troll.

106

{x..>Jade<..x},

07/11/2007 14:00:35

Whats the matter aint got nothing to say. Thats because you no im right haha. Everyone else seems to treat me with respect. Just because im a kid it doesnt mean you can treat me like sh*t. I still have the right to speak my mind and im speaking it whether you like it or not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

107

{x..>Jade<..x},

07/11/2007 14:05:42

groknroll, edinburgh

Sorry if i have offended you, i just hate people like that you no what i mean i just have an open mind haha sorry xx

108

{x..>Jade<..x},

07/11/2007 14:07:29

and sorry to anyone else i just got a big gob and groknroll, edinburgh was that ment to be a nasty msg or funny haha just wonderin sorry everyone

109

mammabear,

07/11/2007 14:10:29

it is time us smokers stuck together, i have no wish to inflict my smoke on others that choose not to be around smoke, but see no harm in pubs choosing if they are smoke free or not and advertising their preference on their premises.Are the government worried that left to make their own choices licensee's would consider that allowing smoking was the more commercially viable option? I am a non drinker but have had to accept drunken behaviour from drinkers regardless of my sober state and have witnessed the evils of drink and drink related problems many times in my life without calling for a ban on alcohol, which also costs the health service plenty and can destroy families. After all how many smokers are violent, abusive, driving under the influence, irrational in thought or deed as a result of smoking, our government continue to relax the laws that made drink avaiable for more hours of the day but continue to persecute smokers!!! we should be backing each other and demanding our rights, more and more we are becoming a dictatorship state and we sit back and accept it. I applaud any licensee that allows smoking and just wish i lived closer to blackpool

110

{x..>Jade<..x},

07/11/2007 14:17:42

MAMMABEAR i agree i am only a teenager but smoke myself. People think i do it to be cool but i dont. My mum has given me patches but they never work. I am 14 and a heavy smoker. I smoke between 20-40 fags a day. It annoys me about all these non-smokers who used to smoke act as if they dont understand what its like to smoke its pathetic write back please frm Jade

111

Arthur,

07/11/2007 14:26:26

Sorry Jade If I offend you, for apparently speaking the truth. My remarks were sardonically addressed to what I believed was an inarticulate adult, that you are, as you put it, a kid changes my opinion, Well done for speaking your mind, and joining in the debate and I do agree with you that there are many more important matters to discuss than smoking but it does seem to exercise the minds of the control freaks of this planet rather more than is proportionate.
You say you smoke, that's not really O.K. for someone at school is it? And as a smoker, and very much anti ban I advise you to stop, and wait until you attain the age of majority before considering starting again. Just for your information I had my first fag at primary school it was a Picadilly tipped
cost 2/3 for twenty and I got six of the best and didn't smoke again till I was twenty. So I suppose
I am saying don't follow my example and I am not
in a position to lecture you on the matter.
I will say however that your form of text usage here
probably puts some people of and makes them think
you are a bit thick, which I am sure you are not.
If you really want to get any point across to other people communicate with them as they communicate
with each other. then you will find yourself more easily accepted.

112

Arthur,

07/11/2007 16:51:22

Strange how things have gone quiet here, maybe Jade
skipped last period at school, and mummy doesn;t allow her access to the internet at home?

113

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 07/11/2007 20:20:30

#134, stef, Edinburgh.
Have been to the far north west of Scotland, and appreciate its solitude, but find it a bit of a drag to drive so far. Also real ale's a bit thin on the ground, and the weather's none too reliable.
I'm sure that smokers have souls and feelings too, and at least avoiding their smoke wouldn't be too difficult in the wide open spaces of the Highlands.
I would guess Messrs.Hogan, Howitt and Blows might be too busy packing their bags for Spain to join stef.

114

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 07/11/2007 20:36:05

#133, stef, Edinburgh.
Re this posting and numerous ones from young Jade, she is certainly perceptive in realising that smoking is strictly a mug's game, as Arthur at #130 and even stef at #132 apparently recognise.
In reply to Jade, at #56 I said "No. Thankfully I was never foolish enough to become ensnared by the addiction. If it's no "real bad thing", why should so many smokers try to give it up, sadly unsuccessfully in the majority of cases?"
This was not intended to represent some moral superiority, simply gratitude that I had no adverse family example, for which I shall be eternally grateful.
For Jade's sake, I hope she can absorb stef's advice at #132, namely "smoking is'nt clever, I wish I had never started, I hope you manage to give up", and shake off the addiction, before it's too late.
I am neither grinning nor grimacing, just a trifle sad.

115

Rose Leeds,

07/11/2007 20:45:33

So essentially David, you post regularly on a subject of which you have no knowledge, I did wonder.

116

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 07/11/2007 21:21:25

#137, Rose Leeds.
If Tokyo Rose is enigmatically trying to suggest that as a non-smoker I cannot begin to understand the pleasure ( and despair) that the habit may deliver, she is, of course, correct.
However, as a non-smoker, I am only too familiar with the detritus and unpleasant effluent that it produces. On this basis, I feel only too able to legitimately make my comments.
Haw Haw.

117

Reason - voice off,

07/11/2007 21:48:25

Reluctant as I am to responding to David, I am intrigued by his last two words. Should they not be prefixed by Lord.

118

David from New Mills,

Pleasantville, U.K. 07/11/2007 22:13:59

#139, R-vo.
R-vo is quite astute, but I am sure Tokyo Rose would have recognised the allusion. If not, I shall be pleased to remind her, or indeed resolve R-vo's puzzlement.

119

Rose Leeds,

07/11/2007 22:54:21

Reason,

Precisely :)

120

Choosername,

07/11/2007 23:00:57

Smokers who say, 'if you don't like it, go somewhere else' and complain about state repression never seem to make the connection, 'if you don't like the state, then go somewhere else'. Then they could smoke all they wanted. It's called democracy.

121

Arthur,

07/11/2007 23:27:36

142) Different people have different ideas as to what democracy is. Yours and mine differ widely. Actually
I do believe that you are something of a fantasist if you hold that this country is still a democracy. I hold that
it has been slowly slipping into an elected dictatorship
since 1967.


 

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