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Scotland faces 'global disgrace' for Executive failure to ban smacking

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Published Date:
10 January 2007
UN to report on lack of outright smacking ban in Scotland Existing legislation bans use of implements such as cane or slipper Executive confirmed there were no plans for further legislation
Key quote
"The Executive banned smacking using implements but you can still chastise your child with physical punishment in Scotland. This is against the UN convention" - DOUGLAS HAMILTON, SAVE THE CHILDREN

Story in full A POWERFUL UN watchdog is preparing a report that will criticise the Scottish Executive for its failure to outlaw the smacking of children.

The Scotsman has learned that ministers will face a damning submission from the UN committee on the rights of the child over its refusal to ban smacking despite pressure from more than 60 UK organisations.

It comes five years after the same body urged them to act swiftly on the issue.

Scotland's children's tsar is set to embarrass the Executive further by writing to the UN committee expressing her concern at the Executive's failure to push the current legislation further.

Kathleen Marshall, Scotland's commissioner for children and young people, is an outspoken critic of the practice and has called for a ban.

She told The Scotsman: "The UN committee has been quite clear that no form of smacking or hitting should remain acceptable under the law. I have already been in communication with the Scottish Executive about some areas of concern."

Charities fear Scotland will be disgraced on the world stage for its inaction, since Britain has signed up to the UN convention on the rights of the child.

The law in England and Wales is stricter on smacking. Adults who smack children so hard it leaves a mark face up to five years in jail under laws which came into force in 2005. Mild smacking is allowed but any punishment which causes bruising, grazes, scratches, swellings or cuts can face legal action.

The Scottish Executive stopped short of an outright ban on smacking in 2003, leaving ministers at odds with the UN and a number of countries.

Under the original terms of the Executive's Criminal Justice Bill, it would have been an offence to smack children under the age of three, or hit those of any age with an "implement" such as a belt, slipper or cane. The proposals on using an implement were adopted, but the smacking ban on under-threes was dropped after a Holyrood committee rejected it.

Last night, Douglas Hamilton, head of policy and research with Save the Children UK, said ministers had failed on the issue.

"The Executive banned smacking using implements but you can still chastise your child with physical punishment in Scotland. This is against the UN convention," he said.

In October 2002, the UN recommended a ban on smacking, describing it as "a serious violation of the dignity of the child". But The Scotsman has learned that in a draft report by the Scottish Executive, to be presented to the UN this year, it has conceded that no further action will be taken in Scotland.

The UN committee's last report said it was "deeply worried" that the UK courts let parents inflict "reasonable chastisement". And in the past few years courts have acquitted parents who have admitted using canes, belts and electric flexes to beat their children.

In 1996, a teacher was taken to court for hitting his 12-year-old son, but the case was dropped when the boy decided not to give evidence.

A study supported by the Department of Health showed nine in ten children had been hit and almost a quarter of seven-year-olds had experienced "severe punishment" by their mothers.

Scottish and English ministers are assessed by the UN, following the UK's ratification of the convention on the rights of the child in 1991.

Representatives from the UK and Scottish governments are expected to meet the examining committee in Geneva later this year to defend their record.

A spokesman for the Executive confirmed there were no plans for further legislation.

CHILDREN AND CRIME


ASIDE from the issue of smacking, the UN is also concerned that the age of criminal responsibility in Scotland - eight years old - is too low. This is two years younger than the rest of the UK. In Canada it is 12 years; 13 in France; 14 in Germany, Russia and Japan.

Children's tsar Kathleen Marshall is due to raise the issue in her report to the UN.

In some countries, children are not dealt with by the courts until they are 16.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 10 January 2007 12:40 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Smacking ban
 
1

scottwebb.co.uk,

10/01/2007 01:41:07

Independence please

2

,

10/01/2007 01:50:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 272783, Article id was mapped to record!
3

Faye,

Scotland 10/01/2007 01:57:21

"Global disgrace" sensational hype.

4

John M.,

10/01/2007 01:59:40

You are joking with that I hope, #1? Independence so we can aye gie oor bairns a right guid batterin is not the best argument I've ever seen for independence.

5

scottwebb.co.uk,

10/01/2007 01:59:56

Comment@2 Androsthenes, nice one mate

6

scottwebb.co.uk,

10/01/2007 02:01:28

Comment@4 John, get a grip, we don't need the UN to tell us how to manage things. They are the cause of more genocides than any other organisation in history

7

scottwebb.co.uk,

10/01/2007 02:06:33

I think the belt at school was not a bad thing.......and before you rant on about how bad a comment that is to make, think of this one.....Nearly everyone who is a CEO of a business or is a member of Parliament or is a judge etc, was around when the belt was in schools.
For the last nearly 20 years or so there has been no belt.......have you noticed the breakdown in school discipline etc

8

scottwebb.co.uk,

10/01/2007 02:10:31

As for the UN, their normal gig is to go into a country, takeaway the civilian populations ability to defend itself, then demonize one section of the population and let the mayhem begin.......research your history

9

John M.,

10/01/2007 02:25:43

So now it is a case of let's have independence so we can use a leather strap on our children? The way I remember the old days is that the best teachers never had to use the belt and that some of the ones that did were probably doing it as they got a sexual kick out of it.

10

DunCraig,

Brisbane 10/01/2007 02:32:30

Congratulations to the Scottish Executive - FINALLY! It's about time they stood up to those PC Halfwit trough-dwellers at the UN. When will someone investigate the many blatant failings of the UN or are they to be totally blameless for Rwanda, The Balkans, Darfur and countless other ineffective 'police' actions?

11

Gnasher,

10/01/2007 02:37:46

Scottweb is right. Virtually nobody who was at school after the belt was abolished is an MP or judge or a CEO of a big company. That proves it.

12

scottwebb.co.uk,

10/01/2007 02:39:28

I don't think I'm the only one that thinks the belt wasn't a bad thing at school mate. You knew where to draw the line with your teachers. But I'm sure your over the moon with police charging 5 year olds for apparently making sexual gestures to a teacher and other totally nutty things that are strewn across newspapers these days.
There was a time when a policeman gave a kid a clip round the ear for a misdemeanour and that kid knew better for it.........now he/she faces a criminal record and no incentive to do better.....our jails show the results of naive intervention by the care bear bunch

13

james 1st,

nz 10/01/2007 03:23:03

thank god scottish parents are not un troops, they commit rather more serious offences. lets ban the un. smacking never done any damage to any child. and a ban on smacking will not prevent those people who abuse children from doing so

14

sheena,

in the past 10/01/2007 03:53:02

I smacked my children. It cannot have been often or very hard as neither of them can remember being smacked. Indeed I overheard one telling a friend that she was never smacked but nonetheless 'turned out all right'. But I did do it - not as punishment or to make them learn something but because I temporarily 'lost it'. Now, I am left feeling really guilty that the only human beings I have ever hit in my life are my own, much loved, children.

15

Trebor,

10/01/2007 03:53:32

Listen, how else do bureaucrats justify their existence? They have to pursue easy targets that will eventually comply with their nonsense. Never mind that half the world is going to hell in a handbasket when there is the global problem of children getting a smack on the backside in Scotland! Douglas Hamilton of Save the Children would be better employed doing just that, rather than concerning himself with relative trivia in Scotland. Might I suggest a posting to Ethiopia or Iraq as a good starting point for his efforts?

16

scottwebb.co.uk,

10/01/2007 03:55:31

Comment@14 Shenna, I'm sure you were a great mum :)

17

,

10/01/2007 05:06:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

Guga,

Rockall 10/01/2007 05:15:06

This is the PC brigade going over the top, again. The numbers of neds, schemies, hoons and thugs etc. around today are evidence of the lack of childhood discipline. Kids need a clip round the ear now and again and, provided it doesn't go to far, it does them more good than harm.

The Executive should tell this so-called Children's Tzar to pull her head in, and stick to minding hamsters.

19

Raygn,

Canada 10/01/2007 05:48:17

Is our "Global disgrace" shared by anybody else or are we the last bastion of unmitigated cruelty to children?
Headline writers!!you gotta love em.

20

Mcsnagpile,

Vietnam 10/01/2007 05:48:54

I remember the old days when the Teacher could give you a regular fives in jail thrashing with compulsory weal. I also remember the Mods and Rockers and the Teddy boys and the razor gangs and gin yer granny sew? Then she kin sew this. Scotland can still boast a violent sub culture perhaps we should give up football and go for European cups for prison attendance. On the other hand it is a sad day when we have to legislate to protect children from parents.

21

Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 06:00:30

Many of us on this board were brought up in an era in which discipline was paramount. If you were in trouble at school you were in trouble at home. You NEVER cursed in front of an adult and teachers were respected.

You knew that disrespectful behaviour would be met with a clip round the ear or a smack on the behind. You understood the meaning of consequence.

However, in present day Scotland, children will curse on public transport within earshot of any adult. A glance of disbelief may result in your being stabbed or verbally assaulted, or beaten. The children smoke in front of adults, they are disrespectful to teachers, their entire demeanor is a disgrace and in the years to follow it will become progressively worse.

All of this has happened as a result of PC and the negative effect it has on a society as a whole.

Certain children will be beaten by their parents. But a ban on smacking will not prevent them from being beaten. You cannot hold 99% of society at ransom for the ills of the 1%. It does not work!

Children need to be disciplined and the only way to do that is the old fashioned belt at school and the clip round the ear at home.

School uniforms should be introduced, shoes should be polished at all times. Collars down and ties done up, blazers to be worn outwith the school premises, no cell phone conversations unless it is a matter of importance. No funky hairstyles, no jewellery and no smoking whilst in uniform. Failure to comply will result in detention and disrespectful behaviour to fellow classmates or teachers will result in the belt. In 1 to 2 years we will see a marked improvement in the attitudes of Scottish children.

Or we can chose to do nothing and permit them to age in a world in which discipline is a word they dont even know exists, let alone a human quality they will never experience. We can permit them to age in a world in which self respect for others is alien and self respect for oneself is unimpor

22

Navvy,

10/01/2007 06:02:54

For once the Executive have got it right, done nothing!

Parents must take responsibility and that may need a little discipline

23

scottwebb.co.uk,

10/01/2007 06:29:13

Good to see were growing up :)

24

Paul Voltaire,

www.paulvoltaire.spaces.live.com 10/01/2007 06:42:45

If my dad had to do without his slipper all those years ago his hands would have got sore.
Slippers have their practical use you know.

25

ianmcg,

Pretoria 10/01/2007 06:47:33

I have smacked my 3 children when they badly misbehaved and have been thanked by them ,for that, now that they are adults.
Children are not adults and do not see the world as we do. Why is it nowadays we are scared of the PC brigade? The evidence of anti-social behaviour by todays youth is overwheming. A good whack is worth a thousand words.

26

,

10/01/2007 06:50:46
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27

Kilwhang1,

Kincardineshire 10/01/2007 06:51:41

"What's wrong with the youth of today?" I hear this question far too regularly - in the streets, on the TV, in the local and national press etc. The reason, as far as I am concerned is that the young are too aware of their so called rights, and give decent society the fingers. Why? Because they are equally unaware of their responsibilities. The middle and older age groups of today, were brought up to respect. If this meant applying a bit of a smack or a couple of strokes of the belt, I defy anyone to tell me that this did more harm to their mentality than good. The so called Human Rights Brigade should get real and encourage a bit of real disipline in the modern youth. By that I definitely do not mean any form of cruelty or the ridiculous contention of #9

28

Anne,

10/01/2007 06:54:01

Let's be honest - there is a great deal of difference between a smack and a beating. Do not use the words interchangeably.
Of course children should not be beaten (nor should adults, come to that) but most parents have experienced the point where a swift smack can be therapeutic for both sides!

29

Paul Voltaire,

www.paulvoltaire.spaces.live.com 10/01/2007 07:03:12

#28
Good point,Anne, and I do have to admit that, once Faither got started with the slipper he could get carried away with himself.

30

Hoops man,

10/01/2007 07:09:48

Yup the nanny state, look at facts, belting at schools, by parents years ago = no cheek, back chat from kids ( or very little ), no kids running riot in school attacking teachers, people on the street, vandalism etc.
Now we have the nanny state, kids attacking teachers, people, cheek etc.
Now which was the best?
I know which i choose. Enough of this crap back to basics, discipline works, history tells us that

31

scottwebb.co.uk,

10/01/2007 07:12:14

Comment @26 Hibs, although i do not have any kids , you would be amazed at how many i know. I would never advocate abuse of any sort BUT i would also say the break up of the family unit is what the UN seek. Lets just apply some common sence..not be dictated to :)

32

,

10/01/2007 07:13:43
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33

,

10/01/2007 07:15:23
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34

,

10/01/2007 07:16:25
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35

,

10/01/2007 07:19:02
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36

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen 10/01/2007 07:21:36

Rather have a smack than this bollocks of playing mind games with children. Dont go near that fire or its a smack for you worked wonders when I was younger, now it would be dont go near that fire because it will burn you lets look at these pictures of burnt children to see what will happen, now kids lets have a discussion on why we dont go near fire 'bollocks' dinnae go near it cause my slipper will hurt you more than fire works wonders.

37

jj,

10/01/2007 07:24:46

And with Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe smacking down all oposition - sometimes to death - why pick on Scotland? Why do our taxes do our taxes fund a UN with all the wrong priorties?

38

Aileen,

10/01/2007 08:03:13

How can we Scots be facing a global disgrace when I know for a fact that other countries smack their kids and are connected with the UN. And I agree with the other comments here, I don't believe in beating the cr*p out of a kid or anyone else but until we bring back proper discipline then there is going to be nothing but trouble from kids, as we are already seeing. I wonder what the parents of the troublemakers at Burger King are going to do with their kids, ground them, take their mobile phone away, no computer games??????

39

GP,

10/01/2007 08:15:42

Be fair guys the Un has to do something and we are an easy target. Much easier to knock us for this than actually do anything about child poverty in the third world. Things like Child labour, starvation, education, murder, slavery all still go on but the UNITED NATIONS check out smacking.

40

eric,

10/01/2007 08:15:51

The PC mob have been around for years now ,Put the blame for our YOB culture at their door,

41

paulr,

10/01/2007 08:20:50

The UN is a joke and has been for many years.
They should stick to what they are good at , making ineffectual protests to governments and generally sticking their noses in other peoples business.

42

Albawolf,

St Andrews 10/01/2007 08:23:43

PC out of control

This is a front so the SE can say the UN (a body no doubt the SE believer in) are asking for it.
Then the SE say that they are been balanced between the 2 sides....

Can't therse creatures that push this PC understand.
The children AREN'T theirs.
It is the parents to say not the Government.....
That's the REAL issue here.........

A Government big enough to give you everything you want is
A Government big enough to take everything you have......

43

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen 10/01/2007 08:25:04

You can just picture the headlines now UN's message to terrorists, All TERRORISTS be WARNED unless you stop terror activities it's the NAUGHTY CHAIR for you.

44

SamuraiCelt,

Tokyo 10/01/2007 08:25:10

Androsthenes...didn't you mean US troops?

45

Haze1,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 08:28:16

So, if the law changed it would be wrong to smack my child if they ran into the road or tried to put their fingers into an electric socket.

46

conservative,

Fife 10/01/2007 08:28:27

So who cares what the UN thinks? Many of the countries represented there wouldn't know a human right if it bit them.

47

eric,

10/01/2007 08:32:49

Most of the PC mob ,Who push this crap,Dont have children ,Or Their kids were Shoved off into Boarding school ,Silly people ,

48

Loving Mother,

edinburgh 10/01/2007 08:38:41

A smack not a hammering never damaged anyone and thus the reason kids go off at such a rate defying,screaming and flailing about. I dont tolerate anyone being smacked on the head but the bottom has great padding. I love children and enjoy them very much but the behaviour I describe above I find very difficult to accept.

49

maestra,

10/01/2007 08:38:55

Discipline and smacking are not the same thing.

The problems we have with youth in Scotland are not due to the fact they were not smacked.

Think harder!

50

Massive,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 08:41:33

Well put Media 1 - I agree wholeheartedly. A huge number of kids have no respect for anyone now, not even themselves. and it scares me to think what this country will be like when they're adults. A sharp smack never did anyone any harm and, as others have said here, there is a big difference between smacking and beating. PC and "goodie goodies" are destroying the human rights of the average decent citizen to enjoy a life free from thugs and yobs. The big joke is that these very kids, who we are to be forbidden to smack, will probably grow up with so little respect for others that they will be the ones who end up battering thier own kids!!

51

,

10/01/2007 08:44:09
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52

Moray Stewart,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 08:45:02

What absolute nonsense, smacking isn't banned in most countries, what about England?

Looking at the behaviour of many youths today we need more smacking and a return of the belt to schools. As for the age of criminal responsibility being too low, if you raise it to 12 then the wee scum know they can do what they wish with no repercussions.

Knowing the quality of 'journalism' in the Scotsman these days, I suspect this article isn't entirely based on fact.

53

Billy,

Germany 10/01/2007 08:46:17

An organisation as corrupt and impotent as the UN
has no right telling us how to run our country.
Post 21 sums it up perfectly. Children are born wild animals and must be trained and disciplined like any other creature. Otherwise we will see an infestation of Nedius Arseholius.
The same problem arises in the rest of the animal kingdom, most noticably among elephants and apes
were an absence of dominant adults produces gangs of young animals running amok.Humans are no different .

54

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen 10/01/2007 08:46:37

I still remember when I was younger at Primary School I thought it would be a good idea to lock all the teachers in the school one dinner time.

Oh was I wrong oh so wrong, it was the belt for me from the headmaster.

And you know what I didn't do it again.

55

Real kilts,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 08:49:50

You are right MorayThe reporters from the Scotsman need detention not a smacking maybe we should send them to some where like Israel where they shoot first and ask questions later.

56

drew1712,

bonnyrigg 10/01/2007 08:51:11

It is a very thin line,alot of adults don't smack a child because they need a wee bit discipline.Some people take their stress and frustration out on the child,which we all know is wrong.Parents needs to be left to make the decisions for themselves,not treated like children by a bunch of interfering politicians.

57

Real kilts,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 08:56:52

Wot about this who wants to smack Cathy Jaiki-son the justice Minister's bum Naa you are not allowed to smack Neds or schemies and anyway she is plug.

58

Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 08:57:17

We all know that a clip round the ear never hurt. If anything it did us a world of good because it made us aware of consequence in relation to our actions.

I have faith that the world will get to a point in which it must return to the mindset that discipline is paramount. If not we run the risk of creating complete and utter anarchy, within a world in which nothing is punishable.

59

Kennybhoy,

Aberdeen 10/01/2007 08:58:50

This is PC gone mad. I reserve the right to discipline my own children, and any other children I see causing mischief and alarm. Just last week there were two youngsters hurling abuse at two grannies on the local train and then shot a BB gun at them. If I had witnessed that I would like to have the authority as a decent citizen to enforce justice, with physical intervention if need be, without fear of being criminalised.

60

Denis,

10/01/2007 09:02:51

# 1 - scottwebb - But if it was true that under the Vienna convention on state succession an independent Scotland would automatically inherit the same rights and obligations as the UK now has under the EU treaties, then logically an independent Scotland would also automatically inherit the UK's obligations under this UN Convention, which is another international treaty signed and ratified by the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_...

61

,

10/01/2007 09:02:55
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62

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen 10/01/2007 09:08:31

#59 Kennybhoy they need a good erse skelpin with tackity broags still attached to the end of my feet, for pulling a stunt like that.

63

Citylocal Fife,

North of the bridge and right of(f) Jack McConnell 10/01/2007 09:08:37

How nice to see that they have their priorities right. Now that they have eradicated war, child soldiers, people trafficking, drug trafficking, persecution, slave labour, illegal invasions et al, throughout the world, it is only right that they turn their attention to the really serious matters. I think not!

These people need a smack themselves to bring them out of whatever sort of coma they are in.

64

,

10/01/2007 09:09:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
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65

Kennybhoy,

Aberdeen 10/01/2007 09:16:40

# 61...where is this place you talk about? Sounds like paradise to me...

66

Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 09:18:32

#61 Webbie: I am not sure what sort of freedoms you are after and I am in no position to judge you.

My call is for a return to a point in time in which respect for ones elders was important. Thats all really!

67

Flabskin,

Mbra' 10/01/2007 09:19:46

It must be great to have been born with know-all genes. Why did I have to miss out? You know what I mean - you bring up 3 kids of your own and all of a sudden you know everything there is to know about bringing up the other billion or so scattered around the world.

Those Swedes haven't half got it right though. No smacking there - just the highest rate of youth crime in Western Europe (although the UK may have knocked them off that proud perch this year)

68

Messalina,

10/01/2007 09:23:43

The UN are a bunch of idiots. They criticise Scotland, while other countries allow adults to beat, abuse and worse, murder their kids in cold-blood??

Tell them to get a grip!

My kids all had a spank when it was necessary. The gluteus maximus was made for it! Of course, you should never hit them anywhere else ... but it's a natural inbuilt drive of the human being to use this kind of chastisement to keep the young in order! Which through the likes of the UN and overinterested busybodies want to deprive us of.

No ... tell them to get lost!

69

Kennybhoy,

Aberdeen 10/01/2007 09:23:55

#66. I agree totally with you. I am all for childhood experiences and that involved getting up to mischief from time to time, however some of the behaviour by kids in this day and age boggles my mind. When I was their age I would never have even considered doing what some of the kids do today, and that was out of respect...not fear of an almighty belting from my old man (although that was a small part!!).
Trouble is that there is no respect now and the kids no that we as adult citizens can't do a thing about it when they mis-behave.

70

Janem,

Scotland 10/01/2007 09:24:05

I smack my son on the back of the legs occaisionally when he is being naughty which is within the law.
Even if a law is brought in than bans smacking outright it will not protect the children who need it - the ones who are are regularly smacked so hard it leaves bruises or grazes or with a belt or other implement. The type of people who do that are not going to be bothered whether it is against the law - they will just make sure (like wife beaters) that they still cause the pain but don't leave the marks.
An outright ban would stop me from that smack round the back of the legs but it won't stop violent parents from abusing their children - the ones who need protecting.

71

Sallennic,

Lanark 10/01/2007 09:27:01

What doesn't seem to ocur to the do-gooders in various countries is that different nations and races have differing temperaments; and this would seem to indicate that "one law" throughout the world is not likely to work satisfactorily. Maybe this nation needs some freedom to chastise, whereas others do not. Certainly, the breakdown in general discipline, particularly in schools, in this country is a very worrying phenomenon, the cure for which does not so far seem to have been found; but do we really need to be told how to deal with it by other nations?

72

Kennybhoy,

Aberdeen 10/01/2007 09:28:11

#71...good arguement

73

Budgie,

10/01/2007 09:38:21

Whether smacking of children is banned or otherwise is immaterial, because those among us who are of a disposition to assault their children, will continue to do so irrespective of any ban. To their shame , I might add.

74

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 10/01/2007 09:38:58

I'm confused by the story

It seems to be saying that the problem is that we have stopped short of a complete ban, unlike England who have stopped short of a complete ban!

75

Bill, Dunblane,

10/01/2007 09:44:25

Media 1 - 21

See you're back into the school uniform fetish AGAIN!

76

radical theologian,

california 10/01/2007 09:48:01

This is basically self-indulgent adults refusing to be accountable for either themselves or their kids. A lot of this disruptive and anti-social behaviour starts when kids are offered loads of choices, but don't have the maturity or experience to know what to do with any of them. Kids need direction, and flounder when they don't get it.

77

LF,

10/01/2007 09:48:46

For the love of god. I'm 31 and was regularly smacked for various misdemenours as a child. Length and location of smack dependent on seriousness of crime. Two very serious offences even led to a belt on bare bottom situation.

Shockingly, with this heinous upbringing, I am a well rounded woman with a responsible job, what I like to think are good principles and I have never, ever been disrespectful to my elders and betters, or committed any crimes. Thank you mum for the discipline.

Should I ever have children - smacking will most definitely not be ruled out.

78

TJS,

Dunfermline 10/01/2007 09:53:53

It is the fear of corporal punishment that is the deterrant, knowing that the sanction is there to be used if necessary. When I was a lad any serious misdemeaner could result in a few strokes of the birch at the local police station. I can assure you it kept everyone on the straight and narrow, and I personally don't know anyone who suffered this indignity. It is a bit like having an arsenal of nuclear weapons with no intention of using them. The threat is enough.

79

Kennybhoy,

Aberdeen 10/01/2007 09:54:54

#78..agreed. I have kids and I will not stop smacking if necessary. I have not had to yet and I believe this to be because of how they are brought up...they have no wish to offend because they have respect, are happy and are disciplined. They are some people out there that should not produce offspring until they pass some sort of ability test...!

80

T,

10/01/2007 09:55:50

Media 1. Respect is earned and works both ways. Not many people respect youth so why should they respect their elders? Especially when they talk about banning "funky" haircuts? The kid with the "funky" haircut may be the next Prime Minister. Are you smothering (harmless) individualism and encouraging conformism?

I hope not.

However, some people, young and old are lost causes which give everyone else a bad name. Isn't that right media 1?

81

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10/01/2007 09:56:26
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82

marrianna,

K. 10/01/2007 09:58:16

Totally agree with 77. Can't comprehend anyone feeling justification from hitting a child. Shortsightedness maybe?

83

Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 09:58:35

#76 Bill : Dunblane

Yes, I am a fan of the school uniform, just as I am a fan of the suit within the work place.

I regularly witnessed children in Scotland going to school in the morning dressed in a slovenly manner. They wore old trainers, or unpolished shoes, their shirts were out, their hair was uncombed,their general appearance was shoddy!

It is unacceptable and it must be addressed!

84

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10/01/2007 10:00:08
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85

bill-alba,

10/01/2007 10:02:37

"Whats it got to do with the UN"..well it was the UK government that signed up to the proposal...
as for the belt being good for you and helps you respect the teacher...what school did you lot go to...I and my friends were forever getting the belt..it neither did good or bad..it was just something you had to put up with to do what you wanted to do....
And we do need independence...if the UN has a go at Scotland...it will be Westminster that will crack the whip...whereas it should be a responsible Scottish government that signs up to the UN and then adheres to what the Scottish Government signs up to..

86

Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 10:03:15

Marrianna! Humans are not computers, we are built differently. By nature we are the most corrupt form of life under the firmament of heaven, or whatever it was that created us.

We need to be discliplined and a smack around the ear or a good old fashioned skelping on the backside is a good way of instilling that discipline.

PC people by their own myopic viewpoints are slowly turning the world into a place in which no action regardless of its violence is punishable...

87

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10/01/2007 10:05:01
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88

Kennybhoy,

Aberdeen 10/01/2007 10:06:46

#82..Wee Berty, no I don't agree with you. I was belted and strapped at school when I mis-behaved, as were many other contributors here, as were many of my work colleagues and friends and NONE of them have grown up thinking violence is OK. I deserved the discipline I received and learnt quickly as I was troublesome and a disruption in the classroom.
Smacking and assault are totally different, one being a pre-determined, calculated disciplinary tool that parents and elders know is in their toolbox should the need arise, the other being mindless violence.

89

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen 10/01/2007 10:07:33

#84 Tell that to Boris Johnson

90

Kennybhoy,

Aberdeen 10/01/2007 10:11:24

Wee Berty, my logic is not warped. You have a totally different view on this subject. I disagree with your logic but I don't think your thought processes are warped, you are mearly not correct.
You must have been bullied at school or at home were you?

91

Lock,

10/01/2007 10:17:14

Even though 'Global Disgrace' is in inverted commas in the headline, I cannot seem to find anyone being quoted saying that in the article. I was going to email the perpetrater with my views but it seems that the Scotsman has made it up and stuck it in the headline.

My point was going to be that I am sure that the law in Scotland on smacking (and remember there is one to protect children already) is NOT at any point going to be pushing Darfur, Somalia, Iraq, Zimbabwe, Child labour, Pollution, etc, etc out of the headlines. If more resources were taken from nothing campaigns like this and put into solving the more important things then, once all these issues are worked out, they would have all the time in the world to move on to getting global recognition of the child abuse problem in Scotland.

92

Shug,

UK 10/01/2007 10:17:42

Belting in school was pointless for most people who received it. I was a well behaved student and got the belt once (deservedly) and learnt my lesson. To be honest the lecture I received about my conduct was more effective. However it was no deterrent to the people who were belted the most. The number of times someone received the belt actually became a bit of a status symbol and didn't deter the regular trouble makers from continuiing to cause trouble.

As to smacking children there may be no need to change the law. If a parent over steps the mark (generally when they have "lost it") they will commit an assault under the law as it stands because it would not be reasonable chastisement.

Personally I don't agree with smacking, I have done it very rarely and felt terrible as soon as I have done it. Like 14 says, why hit the thing you love most!

While it is UN PC nonsense and will not deter the abusers of the world perhaps the public step of banning smacking will deter the normal law abiding majority from hitting their children at all. A good thing at the end of the day.

Not hitting your children would not and does not make them more likely to grow into thugs. The cuases of such behaviour are many and not simply because someone didn't get a good kicking from their parents when they were young!

93

Shireman,

Kilspindie 10/01/2007 10:27:17

This PC nonsense proves I think that despite thousands of years of evolution we as a species have failed to learn very much from our long collective experience. A mother cat will bring an unruly kitten into line with a swift smack on the top of the head, a dog similarly will nip a puppy that isn't behaving. The point I'm making here is not that battering kids is good, its just that in order to get the undivided attention required to teach right from wrong, you have to make very clear who is in charge. A kid that ignores or challenges a parents right to be a parent has to understand this, or as so many have pointed out here today, the kid is deciding how he/she will be parented. Looks like the lunatics are very much running the assylum these days.

94

Allen,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 10:28:46

I'm a father of two children and It's necessary sometimes to use a small kick in the ass to put them in line-this is very essential otherwise they are wild cannons. The problem is that schools are no longer a place of discipline, why, because we tooooo many female airy fairy liberal hippies in power.

Our problem is, many of these people are normally feamle, Lesbians or Homosexuals who have no real sense (experience) of family values and life,simply, because they cant fulfill a role in society they should automatically be banned from engagement in any legislative decisions (inc research) in family life- period.

I condone child abuse absolutely-discipline and a small chastising should be acceptable-including school- bring back the belt- why? It's not the belt that keeps them under control-it's the thought of a teacher being able to use a discipline of this type that keeps the children under control.

And before some airy fairy liberal comments about this-First, look at what damage to our young children this PC culture has brought about- SHAME on these PC idiots- Discipline is dead on the water and we only have to thank idiots in power-

Evidence- we are now legislating (ASBOS) etc, to curb the unruly young society,who's fault ? PC Fools- these people are not aware of the consequences of there actions in legislation- I hear them cry" we are only thinking of the children". My reply is "no you are not" tough love now and again is perfectly acceptable- Get OUT OF OUR LIVES- FOOLS.

I hope some day these idiots become accountable for their actions. Or, some sensible person with common sense comes out of the woodwork and kicks these idiots out. Where's Scottwebb ? You should run for president mate.

95

Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 10:30:22

Shug: Hitting your kids from time to time when they behave unaccordingly ALSO does not turn them into thugs.

There must be a punishment for unsavoury actions. If their isnt then we move toward a world in which rapists, murderers and paediophiles go unpunished. THERE MUST BE A PUNISHMENT!

96

Flabbergasted,

Ayr. 10/01/2007 10:30:45

How much do we pay these idiots to come up with tripe like this. They quite clearly have nothing better to do with their time. The sooner we dump this PC nonsence the better for us all.

97

Annemac,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 10:32:56

#67 When the debate on smacking children was first raised by the UNCRC, it cited Sweden as a positive example, conveniently omitting the fact that youth crime had soared in that country. Whilst that country advocates a complete ban on smacking, it seems obvious that it doesn’t produce the intended result. Children and young people need boundaries in order to feel safe and to learn that there are limits to any kind of behaviour that are unacceptable in society. How can you reason with a small child whose cognitive abilities have not yet developed? A short, sharp smack to the posterior usually does the trick, at least it did in the case of my two children who have both grown up to be responsible adults within the community. I disagree with hitting or physically punishing children or young people who are old enough to be reasoned with as it is a truly humiliating experience. I was brought up on a diet of repeated beatings from my stepfather and it encouraged me to seek other methods of dealing with discipline with my own children. I was also belted at school on a regular basis, probably as my behaviour mirrored my unpleasant home life and I was ‘acting out’ as a result of being unhappy and confused. The belt did not deter me but only served to make me more rebellious as I felt resentful towards the adults who were supposed to be ‘caring’ for me. I am not an advocate of ‘hard love’ as I think it is irresponsible on the part of adults to really bother being good parents. Removing something that a child values such as a video console or cancelling a trip to the cinema has much greater impact on the way children and young people behave, not taking the quickest route out and physically punishing them. I also believe that sitting a young person down and actively listening and talking to them produces much greater results. I can already hear the outcry! Liberal, woolly mouthed parent!

98

Denis,

10/01/2007 10:33:00

# 86 - Scotland would automatically be signed up, Bill-Alba, if it was true that under "international law" Scotland would automatically succeed to EU membership. What applies to the EU treaties must also apply to all other international treaties, like this UN Convention. The bigger question is why successive UK governments have signed up to many international treaties which effectively tie the hands of our elected representatives, without the electorate even knowing that it was happening let alone being consulted in a referendum.

99

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10/01/2007 10:35:36
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10/01/2007 10:37:31
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101

Antonine Plato,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 10:39:47

http://platosway.blogspot.com

I was given a good clout a few times. I deserved it!

Does this mean my poor wee mum's a bad person, a criminal??

No, it doesn't. It means that the world has indeed gone pc mad. It's ok to go off and slaughter 50,000 iraqi civilians but smacking, god no how can we allow that.

This world and it's people need to get it's priorities straight...

102

Shug,

UK 10/01/2007 10:41:10

96. While I would tend to agree that there is no need to change the law to outlaw minor smacking (on the basis that overstepping the mark is already an offence as far as I am aware), the message has got to be that hitting your child is wrong. I think that the majority of people would agree with this.

Your comments about rapists etc are way off beam to this debate. Children do misbehave, push boundaries, test their will against yours. Smacking is a defeat for the parent.

Any how 96, I will let you get back to beating your servants for letting your tea get cold!

103

JoeO,

West Lothian 10/01/2007 10:42:55

When the UN has it's own house in order, let it come and tell us what we're doing wrong. As for the Children's Tsarina, let her focus on the deprivation and hooliganism which are such blights on today's youth. When she has an answer for those, then let her look at whether a child gets a spank to teach them not to get into danger! Given the fire analogy used earlier, the PC brigade would have us allow the child to get badly burned in order to teach it that fire is not something to touch - I think most kids would rather have the smack, thanks. When we look at the rights of children, one of the most important aspects that needs looked at is keeping the child SAFE - and sometimes that means protecting them from their OWN worst excesses.

104

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10/01/2007 10:44:48
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105

BIG EYE,

Paisley 10/01/2007 10:46:16

Labour will be smacked by the electorate in May and it cannot come soon enough!

106

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10/01/2007 10:46:23
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107

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 10:47:01

We have learned it is a good thing not to do what the UN wants!

It is a useless toothless organisation, a massive talk shop - the biggest quango out there!

It is slow to act and frequently takes inappropriate measures laced with hypocracy, inadequecy and guff like be 'dissaproving' of Scotlands legistlation on kids.

It is already against the law to abuse kids - folk go to jail for that .. at least we have got that right! But to remove all forms of physical punishment is a stupid as I would expect from the UN.

When the belt went from school so to did control - everybody's noticed it and nobody has the rollocks to bring it back.

The PC kiddies mollycoddling brigade want to give the kiddies a little quiet talking to about bad behavouir in order not to hurt their feeling too much - meanwhile the same kids are stalking the school corridors with machete's - because they can and there is no real consequence for doing so.

Try 6 of the belt and get some respect back into the system! They will thank you for it later ...

We are being run by fools with no desire to see the application of common sense and would put a proud loving parent who clips their kid on the backside because they didn't want a ill disciplined 'Blair/McConnell' era clone in the same catagory as someone beat their kid with a baseball bat ... sod me this country is crazy!!

108

Neil,

9% Growth Party 10/01/2007 10:51:27

The UN provided cover for NATO to occupy Kosovo & kill thousands of civilians for not being Albanian & kidnap & sell thousands of schoolgirls into sexual slavery.

That is the "global disgrace". Under no circumstances should we accept moral censure from the political elite in the UN & in Britain, who engage in such obscenities.

109

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 10:51:45

I think it's outrageous that some parents shout at their kids. This is mental abuse and should also be banned.

110

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 10:52:47

Together with the already banned belt, the about to be banned smacking and any other form of chastisment.

111

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 10:54:22

If I was a kid I'd probably go to McDonalds on Princes street and wreck the joint - no consequences. Ain't life great.........

112

Louisa,

Clinging to the wreckage 10/01/2007 10:54:36

Radical Theologian 77 - spot on!

It's surely not the belt itself but it's discriminatory use for the appropriate reason that should matter and be retained as a feared deterrent - what's the point of having anything less as an ultimate sanction.
Just because it can be banned - we have self-congratulatory political panjandrums ticking 'well, at least we've done something' boxes.
The real question is how do we get ourselves out of this mess of disrespect, vandalism, petty crime, under-age misuse of alcohol and smoking to the present day degree of abuse, parental disinterest, single parent problems (the facts are irrefutable) and the poor levels of school attainment. To re-establish pride and determination to behave and function in a thoroughly positive sustained manner, we will have to use a figurative and real heavy hand as society has lost the family-based tradition of passing on values and ethics once expected by previous generations. We could start by carrying out the best ban yet - against the mediocrity and thoughtlessness of the PC brigade - which includes the hopeless prats of the EU numpty regulation department? Will the SNP be brave enough to tackle this fundamental problem as a priority?

113

,

10/01/2007 10:56:27
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10/01/2007 10:59:03
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Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 10:59:24

Child walks up and throws a milkshake over a guest. The mother can either smack the child and say, "dont you ever do that again" OR she can say, "now now Mary that is unacceptable behaviour, please clean up the mess!

If its the latter, I can see wee Mary tossing about a lot of milkshakes

116

Moderate Mark,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 11:00:25

This is one of the few good things to come from that waste of money (The Scottish Parliament) other than the smoking ban.

Our streets are full of neds because of one thing. Lack of discipline. Parents need options to deal with bad behaviour, not their hands tied behind their backs. The belt should never have been abolished. I dont know one person who was given the belt as punishment who thinks it should have been banned.

The PC brigade, and even worse the Human Rights brigade are tearing this country apart. We have a human right to live in a society free of neds.

117

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:02:57

Bert, that's bordering on abuse. Swimming with dolphins in Florida can be attained. Obviously the assault must have been minor.

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Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen 10/01/2007 11:05:42

I think it makes sense to bring back wooden stocks in to City Centres so we can lock up trouble making idiots and through cabbages and tomatoes at them.

119

Swede16,

10/01/2007 11:10:47

To the neanderthals who think hitting children is a good way to bring them . then why not extend the principal to adults. Give police men the right to hit adults. Anyone caught speeding - the police could just slap the driver on the face.

120

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:12:26

Pain V Pleasure. If the pleasure attained from a behaviour is greater than the pain derived from the behaviour then the behaviour becomes engrained.
Eg, a carreer criminal makes £40k / year (tax free of course) and may get caught once every 2 years and have to do 3 months full board / all inclusive (including sattelite TV).
Disrespectful behaviour to adults, parents, teachers, authority etc enables some children to derive feelings of significance and importance - and so set the seeds of escalation to being a numpty adult and parent and so it goes on.

121

Shug,

UK 10/01/2007 11:12:29

I have always thought the best way to punish someone is to deprive them of something. Nedsa t my school got belted dailly and to no effect. It was pointless, no dterrent what so ever. majority also seemd to be in football teams etc. the school should ahve banned them fromt he teams a s punishment. Pretty sure thta would hav esorted some of them out. You can apply the same methods to kids. Find out what they really like and deprive them of it (oxygen and food not included in this debate!!).

122

Swede16,

10/01/2007 11:13:44

Moderate Mark - another one who thinks labelling something "PC" is a substitute for valid argument and debate.

someone should come round and punch your lights in for you misbehaviour!

123

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:13:45

Good idea Swede, I'm all for it.

124

sceptic,

Livingston 10/01/2007 11:14:44

Parents can't help smacking their children any increase is due to increased levels of exasperation caused by GLOBAL WARMING. After all what else could it be?

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Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/01/2007 11:17:30

All you "smackers" out there, go sit on the naughty step for 1 minute for every year you are old then properly apologies afterwards. I will then allow you to play with your firefox for 20 minutes.......................

126

Lock,

10/01/2007 11:18:28

#124 Swede,

It sure would beat 3 points and a fine. And I assume it would be quicker and probably slightly less painful.

127

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10/01/2007 11:18:36
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128

sceptic,

Livingston 10/01/2007 11:20:05

124
I'd rather have a slap on the face than 3 points on my (clean) licence.

129

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:20:59

Shug, Swede et all. "Punishment" and "smacking" are emotive words. The important thing to understand is there has to be "consequences" for innapropriate behaviour. That is a better debate to have whilst being mindful of the pain pleasure principle where "pain" doesn't neccesarily mean physical punishment. It could as Shug eludes to, be a withdrawal of privilidge. However, the problem we have is that parents and the law fail to have a solution to the pain pleasure equation.

130

Charlichan,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 11:21:20

I think Swede16 needs a good happy slapping.

Swede16, if that is youre real name. You clearly have no idea of the indiscipline in yoofs today, having been brought up in Niddrie in Edinburgh I can say nearly all the kids including myself could have done with a good whip with the belt.

131

Moderate Mark,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 11:24:51

Sewde/Rosford,

Adults we can lock up for voilent behaviour in our society. How would you deal with a 10 year old bully who'se just flushed your daughters head down the school toilet and taken her pocket money? Send him to disney world perhaps? Or perhaps you'd rather see him in a young offernders instutue so he can learn his trade even better. What's that, take his privelidges away? What if he doesnt have any to take away.

Neds are the way they are becuase there are no consequences for them. So lets hear you plan for how to tackle the scum on our streets and prevent this years five year olds becoming the knife carriers of the future.

132

Charlichan,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 11:26:38

Here, here moderate mark!

133

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:28:05

I too come from a time where the belt was in operation at school. It kept the majority (including myself) in line due to the pain pleasure principle. There will always be exceptions - as mentioned it did not work for a VERY small minority.
The problem we have now is that small minority have grown in number since some of those in the majority (myself included) can see there is no consequence for bad behaviour.

134

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:29:21

Hey Mark, think you may be getting me mixed up with someone else?

135

sceptic,

Livingston 10/01/2007 11:30:30

I am not that keen on physical punishment but seems to me that a clear cause and effect is preferably to some mental torture to be endured for long after the event.

136

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:31:11

Mark, my posts at #111 were very much tounge in cheek in case you hadn't realised.

137

Duncx,

10/01/2007 11:31:48

Smacking kids? Who can be for that?

The Committee on the Rights of the Child said back in 2002 that 'governmental proposals to limit rather than to remove the 'reasonable chastisement' defence do not comply with the principles and provisions of the Convention... particularly since they constitute a serious violation of the dignity of the child... Moreover, they suggest that some forms of corporal punishment are acceptable and therefore undermine educational measures to promote positive and non-violent discipline.'

They are against smacking because it infringes the dignity of he child. This is interesting... What is dignity? Are we born with it? Are we given it? How do we know when we have it? And similarly, how do we know when it has been infringed? Can we have family dignity? If we can, is it more important that the dignity of the individual within the family?

Can anyone enlighten me?

138

Moderate Mark,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 11:32:57

Rosford, I was resonding to comments 127/128 where its appeared you were advocating swede's suggestion to come round and puch my lights out. Maybe you were supporting something else Swede said and I've taken it the wrong way.

139

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10/01/2007 11:32:58
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10/01/2007 11:35:26
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rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:35:51

Sorry Mark, it was his slap from the policeman instead of 3 points on my clean license scenario I liked.

142

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:37:47

Bert, are you sure it's not your split personalities posting?

143

Charlichan,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 11:38:17

Wee Berty, I know greenock is a rough place, are you telling me you never seen a kid get his head flushed down the toilet? I certainly did.

If you misbehave you get hit with the belt. You behave you do not simple.

144

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:38:57

Perhaps you could access the personality with a sense of humour - or don't you have one?

145

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:40:02

#148, me too!

146

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 11:40:53

Weeberty, .... Ok. maybe it's not machetes - but drugs and knives then ... same difference ... we've lost control ...

You paint a picture of a wee lassie getting the belt from a big man ... well done! Funny the way your mind works - but nevertheless ... here goes ...

The belt probably was doled out for chatting in class but only after folk had been told several times not to - proof that 'talking' doesn't work and the threat of the belt does, failing that absolutely the belt should be used on those who have ignored and are distrupting the rest of the class.

Back to wee 5 year old Jemima getting the belt from a 15 stone man - well I guess it depends what Jemima has done and how hard the 15 stone man 'belts' her on the hand - anything more than a slightly stingy tap on the hand to get the message across and I'd have the man in jail ....!

The threat of having the belt was usually enough. You guys always want to put what is clearly child abuse in the same catagory as what every reasonable person/parent with an iota of common sense would consider acceptable discipline.

My daughter is only a couple of months old so, no, I don't discipline her at all just now. But you can be sure that once again common sense will prevail and she will not be allowed to disrespect the status quo both inside and outside the family and if that takes a couple of swift clips and a few raised voices when she steps over the line then so be it. You and your kind will certainly never dictate policy to me or my kind.

She, I hope along with alot of other children with consciencous and pragmatic parents, will not grow up bereft of leadership, discipline, and self respect as you are proposing. The future of the children is too important for the supernanny state and folk like you and 'jennifer' to wreck through removing all consquences for actions that clearly require consequence.

If you think that corporal punishment and abuse are the same thing - then I would

147

Charlichan,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 11:43:23

Who exactly do you mean is multi posting, I have not noticed. Mention the names.

Is because they disagree with youre opinion and you can not except it?

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rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:46:22

Anyone seen the ITV show brat camp? An excellent demonstration of consequences and the pain pleasure priciple at work without a belt in sight. If we can't sort it out at school then bring back national service.

149

ExTeacherGlasgow,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 11:47:40

Voldermot claims all the kids are running around with drugs and knives. He also claims all sorts of nonsense. Where is your proof for anything you say? The belt was abused every day in every school. To say otherwise is beyond belief. How many teachers got the gaol for using the belt? What are you saying mate?

Do you sit "on this message board" all day every day posting muck?

And, yes, I am also weeberty by the way. And yes one can use umpteen names. I tried it to find out. And how many names are u using Volt? Are you a teacher with one name, a doctor with another and so on? Back up ur various names and so on? SADO stuff. Lots of lonley people.

150

Moderate Mark,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 11:47:45

Wee berty,

I dont think it matters what size and weight the teacher is... you're completely loading the question by invoking a cartoon like picture in peoples heads.

And to answer your question, If my daughter deserved it then she should get the belt as it would be backing up the values I have and ultimately making my job as a father easier. At home restriction of priveledges as a method of discipline is much easier than in school whenre they have no privelidges to take away.

I'm happy to see though you're in favour of the belt in principle... its just the detail of how its dished out that you have issues with. I dont think it should be for petty offences. It should be for bullying, stealing, breaking the school windows with bricks, assaulting teachers etc... all things which are worryingly on the rise and no longer only dont by a tiny monority but a growing one.

151

cazza,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 11:49:03

Well said, No7. I agree totally. The belt was the best deterent when I was at school and I was also smacked as a child by my parents. It did me no long term damage whatsoever. I have the utmost respect for people and good manners. Something I don't see in the generation today. Maybe if children had a fear of something happening to them they would think twice about their actions.

152

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:49:16

Wee berty is trying to suggest Charlichan, Voldemort et all are all the same person posting under different names. He probably is also a great conspiracy theorist believer?

153

ExTeacherGlasgow,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 11:50:22

Mark, the problem is the BELT was USED for petty offences. Do u grasp that?

A cartoon image? I seen what I said with my own eyes.

I seen wrists that were bleeding. So u think thats ok? Teachers abused it.

154

Shabanijok,

The Lions Den 10/01/2007 11:50:26

The use of the Belt in schools did no lasting harm to those punished, unless like myself, the belt was used as a substitute for poor teaching and communication by my History teacher. The use of the belt also de-personalised the punisher.
Smacking is not a failure of communication or teaching, as young children have neither the ability nor the experience to always understand explainations as to why they have done a misdeed or why an activity is dangerous(explain to a two year old why an electric element can be dangerous even when it looks the same colour as when it is switched off!).
The use of any "implement" or degree of injury which scratches, bruises etc. is rightfully banned, but the moderate smack on the bottom with the palm of the hand, can, on occasion, save a childs life at a later date.

155

ExTeacherGlasgow,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 11:51:38

The posts are just TOO similar.

Bye bye Mr. multi id. How many names are you using. I created a second one in literally seconds. These boards are pointless given that.

Ta ta

156

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:52:43

Ah, we are getting to the bottom of wee berty's psyche - he's an ex teacher from Glasgow. Ex possibly because he's retired in which case he's trying to atone for his sins of using the belt indisciminately or he's left the proffesion to get another job coz he couldn't handle the lack of discipoline in todays modern comprehensives.

157

ExTeacherGlasgow,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 11:53:04

Rosford, I suggested nothing. YOU have done that. And yes I am wee berty. So how many names can I create on here Rosford?

Conspiracy theory - its just too obvious. It really is. SADO.

158

ExTeacherGlasgow,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 11:54:53

Rosford, I am not a teacher. I was making a point. Ya can claim any old trash on here.

I reckon the multi ID will now use all his names to trash Berty. The trawl always does do that. And the patter is always the same.

Time for me to go. I will encourage the moron no more.

159

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:55:35

The "offence" of using nultiple ID's is clearly your own Berty. Perhaps you should take Voldemort's (my alter ego) offer up on finding a good shrink.

160

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 11:58:19

Wee berty / ex teacher, who ever you are, you must be right and everyone else's opinion is valueless. Indeed we have only been placed here for your own amusement.

161

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 11:59:06

Just one name, no omnipresence required to take your 'do gooder', 'I am more moral than thou' arguements to the cleaners ...

162

Charlichan,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 11:59:28

I am Jamie Kirkwood from Edinburgh residing in stornoway at college. No I am no other poster.
BRING BACK THE BELT!

163

ExTeacherGlasgow,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 12:01:16

rosford, be honest, yar a baw bag!!!

164

ExTeacherGlasgow,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 12:02:25

Yes and they always say they are using one name. COCKS !!!

165

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 12:02:36

PS:- 166 directed at dirty berty from number thirty (no offence to Hoops man intended)

Do-gooders are just such losers .....

166

John N. Gillies,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 12:03:37

The UN (global nanny state) should keep out of that e remit specifically vested by God to parents - to "bring up their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord". Where ongoing disobedience is perpetrated by the child with priviliges being abused and violated, then the responsibility is placed upon the parent to wisely administer appropriate and measured punishment to fit the misdemeanour - (ie) heeding the scriptural injunction not to "spare the rod and spoil the child".
The Scottish Excecutive have to be praised in that they got this one correct. Also it is clearly to be seen from the vast majority of the above comments that the man/woman in the street clearly see through this "politically correct" mindset that is rampant in our day...............

167

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 12:03:44

#162, are you absolutely sure you're wee berty.....
Have they also allowed internet access to those held at her majesties pleasure?

168

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 12:07:14

#171, berty (also exteacher) must be a conspiracy! Listen to what the voices in your head are telling you............

169

SylviaAnn,

Australia 10/01/2007 12:09:34

I do not believe in hitting children,I did not when my children were small and I do not now.The greatest punishment for my son was to stop him watching television,these days it would be playing on the computer.The ones who need a belting are the parents who do not know where their children are half the time and probably dont care.

170

Thingshavegototchange,

scotland 10/01/2007 12:12:18

Surely it is clear that things need to change as soceity is falling apart. This is the latest in a long line of stupid laws to try and be passed through parliment by the PC correct brigade. They contribute nothing to ease the life of honest law abiding citizens, just waste parliments time and money to try and pass unworkable and stupid laws.
It is now time to concentrate and bring in laws to tackle anti social behaviour, organised crime and drugs.
Lets not waste any more time discussing this stupid topic.

171

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 12:12:19

#173 jennifer, had a look at all the 3 posts you quoted and I see no reference to flinching, marks of dignity or anything else. Great to here alternative opinions but it's not really cricket to misquote.

172

Charlichan,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 12:14:08

Jennifer, I think you have misread what they where trying to say, in the school enviroment where there are few privlidges to be taken away the belt is the only viable deterent or else all hell breaks lose, especially in some of the classes in my old school Holy Rood.

173

Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 12:15:35

Who remembers that we were told the belt led to Scotland being a violent society and by banning it, the levels of violence would go down, so said the usual social engineers and I am clever you're not brigade. Well did it?? Is the discipline in schools the same or worse since 1981 hmmm let me think!!

The same folk tells us that if you ban smacking, it will help with child abuse wrong, look at the countries who banned smacking, has it stopped or reduce child abuse ehh no it hasn't.

The UN should get it's own house in order before moralising to myself.

Bloody nonesense political correct merde, brought too you by folk that are arrogant enough too think they know better than any other Scot when it comes to raising children and we have to do what ever they tell us because they have letters and are fantastically educated.

Ah right pal!

174

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 12:20:08

#175, agree sort off. Bear in mind the belt was phased out in 1980. Children aged 12 then are now 39 years old ie they are the parents of todays unruly children who don't give a monkeys what they're up to. So agree to the point that it is indeed the parents who need a good belting but when they were at school.

175

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/01/2007 12:22:02

Allen

All these airy fairy liberal "wimmen and homosexuals" are now prisoners in their own homes because of undisciplined brats. I speak as a father of 3 with another on the way.

I deplore the use of smacking with my kids but sometimes they jsut don't listen to reason (especiually the boys) and a wee physical chastisement is sometimes required. Now it only takes the threat of said chastisement.

176

lp,

scotland 10/01/2007 12:23:59

a law banning smacking may not stop parents who take chastisement past what we would call "reasonable" but it would mean that if they are caught they can be punished.

the "minority" of parents who take it too far is bigger than you think. my guess is that the "neds" referred to in this article are probably the product of parents taking it too far not simple being too soft.

the age of criminal responsibility in scotland is 8 but in real terms you don't see 8 year olds appearing at sheriff courts around the country.

children need to be taught how to act in a civilised society, that does not include hitting someone if they are cheeky because as adults that is not how we act in civilised society is it?

177

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 12:25:03

Sylvia, there have always been parents who successfuly reared their offspring into decent law abiding adults without smacking and there always will.

178

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 12:29:49

181, jenny what are you on about?

179

Charlichan,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 12:30:27

I think you will find most of the kids in the schemes do not get hit because there parents do not care. Do not care where they are. Who they are harrasing.
And get away with murder.

180

Charlichan,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 12:32:03

I am not one to condone smacking I should make clear.
But it has its uses in school as mentioned previously.

181

cazza,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 12:33:29

MEDIA 1 - YOU ARE MY HERO. I AGREE WITH EVERY WORD YOU HAVE SAID. Also to SHUG #93 - at school I was belted once for using the wrong set of stairs! Can you believe that? There was a boy who was belted every day of the week and it had no effect on him. He may well not have amounted to very much in life but some people are just like that. That one time was enough for me and, if my memory serves me well, all the others in the class. One totally unruly child in a class is pretty good going. Classrooms today have more than that, I'm sure.

182

Stewie,

10/01/2007 12:33:39

Weeberty is obviously one of those PC folk who have no clue about the realities of life.

The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child was not instigated to cater to the PC brigade. It was instituted to try to save children from Sexual Abuse, Slavery and servitude, and to prevent them from being used as child soldiers and sexual slaves. it was also instigated to ensure that children had the right to be regarded as human beings.

But as usual when the PC brigade get their teeth into something. They twist it into actions which are usually so ludicrous that they would be funny if the tossers didnt think they were serious.

There is a distinct difference between child abuse and child discipline, and it is about time the PC tossers developed the skills to distinguish between the two. But then again they dont want to listen to opinions that differ from their own. They only want their own agendas pressed forward.

My qualifications in this area:
Bachelor of Social Science
Bachelor of Social Work.

And I can assure you I am no bleeding heart or PC advocate.

183

Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 12:34:27

Comment 184, what metric are going to use to say good parent / bad parent? There are laws on the statute that deal with physical abuse, but like many laws they are not fully used. The law already exists about physical treatment of a child.

184

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 12:34:53

From #182. It follows that all parents up to the age of 39 went through secondary school without the detterent of corporal punishment. That is why we have a huge problem with discipline in schools and record crime stats.

185

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 12:39:14

undisciplined parents lead to more undisciplined children which ultimately leads to anarchy and we're heading there at a great rate of knots!

186

Pete Mac,

Down there 10/01/2007 12:40:23

Go on stop hitting your kids you know it makes sence.

187

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 12:40:44

I think the nutjobs have given up and common sense prevails.

188

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 12:42:21

Now now Pete, stop trying to be mischievious. You obviously need a clip round the ear!

189

cazza,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 12:48:03

I have told my daughter how school was in my day (late 70's before you ask!) - she thinks the belt should be brought back and she's only 9 years old! She can't believe how some children behave in her class. What on Earth will they be like when they go to high school in three years time!

190

Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 12:50:22

My mum and dad were born in 1929, and they grew up in hard times they both were working at an early age my dad started his apprentiship at 14! Why is it they grew up in financially and socially difficult times but managed to live and have a family without guidance from the "educated classes" Any answers please!!

191

Mr_Right,

perth 10/01/2007 12:56:23

huge difference between smackin and beating.

Global disgrace to The Scotsman for uneccessary sensationalism.

192

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 12:58:14

Guys, all a bit pointless. Any physical punishment however minor dished out to a minor wrecking McDonalds will result in prosecution. The PC brigade have it there own way already and can stand proudly in the knowledge of the contribution they've made to society.

193

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 13:04:33

I housetrained my dog by pushing its nose close to where it pi**ed, shouted at it and gave it a very light tap on the nose & said bad boy. My own son doesn't believe in chastisement. His dog visits and pi*hes all around my house. I probably deserve it after so brutally training my own.

194

,

10/01/2007 13:05:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
195

,

10/01/2007 13:05:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
196

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 13:11:50

Berty, you are becoming abusive. You clearly need to attend anger management classes.

197

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 13:11:58

#135
Charlichan, Of course it is not my rela name !

I do live in Sweden where hitting children has been banned for decades.
It seems to me there are more 'neds' in Scotland than Sweden which would indicate that hitting them is not the answer and may even coontribute to the problem

198

David Norris,

Dunfermline 10/01/2007 13:14:10

What ignorance. It is a biblical christian principle hence why I never support so called "Save the Children" Chastisment is a necessary function of raising a child for. Hamilton would do well to draw a distinction between chastisment and punishment.

David

199

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/01/2007 13:14:41

I can't believe that you were so cruel to your dog rosford. After all, you chastised me a few weeks ago re: the dog farming business in China.

Sounds like you don't live by your own convictions.

WeeBerty

Gie rosford a break man, no need for the insults noo.

200

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 13:15:33

Clearly Berty you have nothing further of value to add to this debate so the other posters and I regardless of which "side" they're on would really appreciate it if you and your other posting ID's would shut up unless you have something pertinent to add. Thanks.

201

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 13:15:56

Rosford joins the "lets-dismiss-it-as-PC brigade".
Those who advocate child assualt as means of bringing up children are stuck in the past -"it didnea dae me any harm" they say. It clearly did them no good however.

202

R,

10/01/2007 13:16:13

#21 : I agree. Pain is a fearsome teacher...a lesson learnt after the belt is not easily forgotten!

203

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 13:19:29

Swede, I am interested to find out how Sweden appear to have solved the pleasure pain principle dillema?
Dave, thanks for the kind words and Happy New Year to you.

204

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/01/2007 13:20:25

You too rosford. Aw the best for '07.

205

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 13:21:31

#209, Swede, you draw some remarkable conclusions in your post. What evidence do you have to back them up?

206

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 13:22:33

I do have to go now so need to leave you all to figure it out. Cheers.

207

The Voice of Reason,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 13:24:50

You see so many "studies" being carried out these days, I would love to see a study into "the effects of smacking for discipline on life performance".
I would bet my house that, on average, those who faced phyiscal consequences for their negative actions perform better in later life.
By that I mean: better grades at school, higher responsibility jobs, higher earnings and so on...
... maybe if the Scottish Executive are really with me on this one they might want to fund my paper!

208

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 13:25:25

corparal punisment was abolished on 15th August 1987 - not 1980

Rosford should get a slap in the face for lying

209

Everything you do is a balloon,

10/01/2007 13:26:24

Can we boot them in the face and spit on them too ?

210

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 13:28:38

#209 - which remarkable conclusions ?

I think you boss should be given the right to smack you if your work is not up to scratch - skiving on the internet - smack, not fionished that report - smack.
It wouldn't do you any harm

211

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 13:31:53

I think you have had too many smacks on the voiceofreason !

212

Shorn & not Shaven,

Norfolk 10/01/2007 13:41:31

I just wanted to add my two pennies worth here - "spare the rod & spoil the child".....Since the abolition of corporate punishment, society and an in particular the youth of today have become miscreants, the asbo order a fashion symbol! I was faced with the cane at school when I overstepped the line - and I would like to think of myself as a respectable citizen. There is simply no more respect for yer elders!
Carried out in the proper manner (and not in anger) - the wooden spoon is great tool for teaching kids whats right & wrong!

213

Anna,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 13:43:18

#215

I'll be the first volunteer for your study. I was never smacked as a child and got six 'A' grades at Higher level, a degree from Glasgow University and a Postgraduate Diploma. So I guess I have scuppered your theory already.

I don't really agree with a ban on smacking because it is totally unenforceable, but I get really irritated when people assume that children who are not smacked grow into unruly adults.

214

Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 13:45:08

Swede16 To say that comment 218 is perplexing is a wee bit of an understainments, the Scots common law of assault was very clear about assault on a child before another piece of idiotic legislation from the Scot Exec muddied the waters. You are equating a child receiving discipline from a loving parent to physical attack as the same metric to be used.

Oh jings that's different!!

215

BritJock,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 13:46:15

A "Global Disgrace" says the UN! Ooh the ignominy. Next thing you know they'll be sending Hans Blix over to decommission all our Slippers of Mass Destruction.

These children's rights fanatics simply have no sense of perspective. The way they talk you'd think a skelp on the backside is bound to be the first step down the road to becoming a serial killer.

They also have a breathtaking contempt for democracy. The fact that a parent's right to smack their kids is consistently supported in opinion polls by overwhelming majorities of the public, matters not a jot to them. They've decided it violates a "human right" and so is not open to arguement. Consequently they'll do everything they can to bypass legitimate democratic institutions and get it outlawed via completely undemocratic, unaccountable institutions like the UN.

216

Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 13:52:28

Anna 221, I don't think anybody is arguing that all children need smacking, what grates most folk is that we are being told that our right as the parent of a child to make a moral judgement is being replaced. By a law that is based on ideologically unsound and unproven theories and replaces real life experiences of us who have received such punishment.

217

Stewarty,

10/01/2007 13:53:52

UN watchdogs are toothless creatures whose barks are worse than the their bites.

This particularly one should be sent back to its New York kennel with its tail between its legs.

The people of Scotland will determine policy on this and others issues - not interfering busybodies from the UN or, for that matter, the EU. That is what is known as democracy!

218

Anna,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 13:57:29

224, I don't agree with a ban on smacking either. I'm just irritated by the number of posters on here that seem to blame indiscipline or lack of respect amongst youngsters on the lack of smacking and/or corporal punishment at school. No. 220, for example!

I am a young, law abiding adult who managed to turn out that way without physical punishment either in the home or at school.

219

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 14:01:13

#216, Swede, you are both ignorant and misinformed. Lothian region (you know, that's the place where Edinburgh is) banned the belt in 1982. The school I attended banned it in 1980. You are confusing the date as to when it became unlawful to use it with voluntary banning dates. I would have taken your views and input seriously but after your petty post at 216 forget it.

220

rosford,

fife 10/01/2007 14:03:02

226. It's ok Anna, we don't expect you to see the bigger picture.

221

Moderate Mark,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 14:06:28

Its the Scotsman newspaper who is the disgrace for leading with a biased headline like "Scotland faces 'global disgrace' for Executive failure to ban smacking"

As you can see from the comments here. The majority of sane people think its completely sensible to have the option to have mild physical action available.

The Scotsman have clearly decided themselves what is right by leading with a headline like that instead of a more balanced one..... But that doesnt sell papers eh!!!

222

The Raging Savant,

The Upper Middle Lower Country 10/01/2007 14:08:45

The U.N. needs a good smacking. Kofi Annan and his various Saddam-bribe-taking, Oil-for-food despoiling, ineffectual and sadistic cronies all need a good smacking, into irons. Of course it won't happen, will it?

Maybe the U.N. should be "smacked" out of existence. Perhaps taking Chavez up on his offer and moving the whole mess of idiots to the soon-to-be People's Republic of Venezuela would a good start. Once they're there, someone can smack a nice sign on the U.N. Building: LOW RENT HOUSING.

223

Anna,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 14:14:07

228

Why exactly is it that you didn't "expect me to see the bigger picture?"

Of course I realise that I had particularly good parents who were willing to spend a great deal of time teaching me the difference between right and wrong, and that not everyone is so lucky. I am not suggesting nobody should ever smack their kids. I am merely annoyed by some people's suggestions that the lack of physical punishment is at the root of all bad behaviour amongst children and young people.

Perhaps you could explain to me what is narrow-minded about that?

224

weeshooie,

Livingston 10/01/2007 14:22:03

No Smacking
No Punishment
No Chastisement
Hug a hoodie
send the thugs on holiday to teach them a lesson
pay the bullies to attend school
don't pay the kids with perfect attendance at school
give them treats.
No wonder the little b-------s are running riot
no wonder adults are reportedly afraid of kids
punishment to fit the crime.
swear at an elder gets a smack on the bum
hit an elder gets two smacks on the bum
for the more serious yobs who disrespect everything, a good whack on the arse with the birch should get a result.
tell the UN to wake up and attack the real problems like Mugabe, McConnell, Blair, Reid etc.

225

AlanNH,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 14:23:31

First off, I was smacked when I did wrong and it helped me understand that I was doing something my parents REALLY didn't approve of, it didn't alter my feelings of respect and love for them. Properly and fairly administered to a body area where it will cause only mild discomfort, a smack can often focus a child's mind far faster and more efficiently than reasoning and discussion.

If there's to be no physical chastisement, what are parents to do when, for instance wee johnny or jenny goes to touch that hot pan or grille. They dare not smack that hand away - that would be banned yet reasoning will take too long and result in a serious injury. Likewise the child that apes something seen on TV with a stick or worse and goes to hurt another - discussion will take too long - direct and immediate intervention and chastisement are needed.

Firstly, there are practical, reasonable occasions when the person in charge of a child needs to take affirmative action - fast - and smacking is fast and effective.

Secondly, at different ages children have differing abilities to tell right from wrong and to access the consequences of their actions.

Thirdly, a smack does not indicate a lack of concern or love for the recipient, indeed as one reads the above, it often make the imposer of the penalty feel awful - especially when they are good and caring parents.

Fourthly, a ban on smacking has nothing to do with prevention of physical child abuse - this is not the correct justification for its ban at all since it will not prevent it nor cause it to be criminalised (it already is!).

Lastly, I think we be clear that adults are in charge and responsible and therefore impose all the rules!

226

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 14:24:43

#227
ignorant and ill-informed - i don't think so

"The Education (Abolition of Corporal Punishment: Prescription of Schools) (Scotland) Order 1987"

The original article is about Scotlands shame - not lothians and it was not banned in Scotland till 1987.

Six of the best for not paying more attention now.

227

Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 14:27:02

Anna it's true that not all children in school require discipline I wasn't belted, What I do remember was the belt was enough of deterent to those that were trying to push the rules. It has been noted that since the withdrawal of the belt from school the discipline in schools preditable in the large urban areas has dropped.

228

Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 14:30:31

Apologies for the spelling in my last post.

229

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 14:30:32

#223
"my parents REALLY didn't approve of, it"

ah it's the old "this is going to hurt me more than you excuse"

What you people are advocating is assult of Children. Call any other name you like and you still won't alter that fact
It belongs an another age and doesn't work.
The idea that things were perfect before the ban and poeple were so repectful and law-abiding because they were assualted as kids is lamentable.

230

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/01/2007 14:31:20

Anna

You were obviously a very good little girl. Unfortuantely in life, it isn't always the case, especially with boys. With all due respect, please do not measure everybody by your own standards.

Wait until you have kids and especially boys at that and when both you and your partner have to work full time to bring home the bacon, we'll see how much of a temptation you have to smack after a days shift.

231

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 14:32:45

sorry hould have been #233 - please don't hit me!

232

The Raging Savant,

The Upper Middle Lower Country 10/01/2007 14:33:13

Swede16,

Your position certainly explains a lot about Sweden.

233

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 14:37:37

# 239 Dave from Barra.
If you are tempted "...to smack after a days shift." it is clearly you who has the problem.
So the smacking is clearly dependent on your mood caused by a days shift.

I have 2 boys my partner works and we are NEVER tempted" to smack after a days shift".
It is you who needs afresh outlook on life not Anna - so don't try and patronise her.

234

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 14:40:01

#241 - i doubt you know much about the subject.

Your position unfortunately explains a lot about what is still wrong with modern Scotland. Assualting children clearly doesn't work.

235

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/01/2007 14:46:28

Swede16

Excuse me? WTF are you on about? Did I say that I personally smacked my kids after a days shift? Get lost you liberal prig.

FYI, given that the Brits have the longest working hours in Europe, isn't little wonder we're a bit tired of liberal wooly minded tumshies like yourself?

Try getting a fresh outlook yourself, better still, try coming to work and live in the UK since we have the longest working hours, highest taxationr ate, most expensive houses, highest transportation costs, highest child care costs etc.

Tumshie.......

236

The Raging Savant,

The Upper Middle Lower Country 10/01/2007 14:47:19

#243

You come from one of the most emasulated nations in Europe, with perhaps the highest suicide rate.

Maybe a little bit of smacking would have collectively set things right and kept them there, long ago.

237

Aghast,

10/01/2007 14:53:10

there is a difference between assualting children and punishing them. Assualting, resulting in bodily harm is wrong, a smack to let your child know he has wronged is not and is one way to assist a parent bringing up his child. TEachers should be allowed to use thebelt as well.

238

Anna,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 14:53:19

239

If I was a "good little girl" (and I suppose I mustn't have been to much of a horror) it was thanks to my parents.

I at no point have said that I think it is wrong to smack under certain circumstances, such as when kids are too young to reason with, and are about to put their hand on a hot-plate, for example. As I have no children yet, I would never even suggest that I know the kind of pressures parents are under.

My only objection is to the assumption that unruly behaviour is as a result of parents choosing not to physically punish their kids. If this was indeed the case, would I not be a criminal by now?

Delinquency is mainly a result of bad parenting. Choosing another method of non-physical punishment is NOT bad parenting.

239

Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 14:54:39

Swede16 clearly define please what metric would you use in law to define assault on a child. Your comments about another time is valueless, your logic and rhetoric empty and void.

you choose you standpoint from your own choice, those of us to have chosen the otherside do so because smacking a child is not assault in our viewpoint.

Assualt on a child was defined very clearly in Scots law.

If you chose not to smack that's your choice, If i decide to smack that's my choice the law is there to judge if I have overstepped the mark. The point is I should and do have the right to raise my child as I see fit.

You have the opposite view thats democracy!!

What we share however is common ground called Scots law.

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Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/01/2007 15:01:24

No Anna because obviously you were a good little girl and probably quite placid as a child and don't have the same amount of testosterone running through your system as boys.

Not every child is the same. For example, my daaghter is was relatively placid as a small child, unlike her twin brothers at the same age. However, trouble is ahead as she reaches puberty but that's another story.

There are many different theories as to what makes an unruley child and my own is to do with diet, exercise and attention but as I said earlier, given that both parents need to work and they are less likely to feed proper fresh food and provide needed attention, hyperactivity will follow and thus bad behaviour.

BTW, I'm not disputing what you are saying and as apposed to what tumshie16 might think I'm not trying to patronise you.

Come back to the debate when you have your own kids (however, I'm in know way precluding you from this debate as your opinion is as valid as my own).

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Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 15:11:16

#244 - i seem to have awoken your viloent urges

#245 - I come from Scotland, but I live in country you clearly know nothing about other than clichees and urban myths. Scotland would do well to emulate Sweden on many fronts.

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10/01/2007 15:12:00
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Laird William,

Canada 10/01/2007 15:13:01

You all deserve a good smacking. There has been twice as much time spent here discussing the toothless wonders (theUN) latest blunder as you spent discussing supporting your troops.

You should be ashamed.

250

Everything you do is a balloon,

10/01/2007 15:13:12

Well im glad I heard this news today.

I will go out and batter any kids I see roaming the streets , with impunity it seems.

Only thing im not sure about is just how hard i can hit them. Can i hit them softly but repeatedly ?

251

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/01/2007 15:13:14

Is it ok to abort an child at 24 weeks? 12,000 a year alone in Scotland. Some folks call that murder, liberals call it progression.

Even the medical world are split in 2 about it given that a feotus can survive outside the womb at 22 weeks.

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Everything you do is a balloon,

10/01/2007 15:13:39

Or is it only parents that can batter their own children ?

253

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 15:14:02

Hitting someone is assualt - only people trying to justify assault of children want to dress it up as something else which they call 'smacking'

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Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 15:15:27

WeeBerty your comments are 1. incredibly inaccurate 2. equating discipline and sexual abuse as the same bemeans your argument and yourself.

I will state once again the act of assault on a child is clearly stated in the common law of assault in Scots law.

Now weeberty you equate all smacking as hitting, belting, physical abuse, thats an incredible broad sweeping brush, using that logic means by your measure any parent that has or will use smacking is knowingly committing an act of ritual physical abuse from which thet derive pleasure!! Thats is a negative implosive statement.

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Allan,

10/01/2007 15:17:39

Smack the numpties who want the ban

257

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/01/2007 15:18:12

So abortion at 24 weeks is ok then?

Tumshie16, how have you managed to awaken my "violent" urges? Prig.

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10/01/2007 15:18:15
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EB,

OH 10/01/2007 15:19:19

Some parents should give a little smack on the butt when there child does something really wrong. Saying you're going in time out, you're going in time out and not doing anything else just lets the child think his or her parents are nothing but empty words and no action. Running out in the street calls for a spanking, doing harm to an elder or someone younger or frailer calls for a spanking. There's a difference between abuse and a little spanking. Words can hurt more then a little spanking.

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Mike Aynsley,

WA. State, USA 10/01/2007 15:19:53

I received a smack from the school principal in 6th grade. I would have been 11 at the time. I had dropped a pencil from an upstairs windown down into a tuba where the band was practicing below. I don't recall being utterly traumatized by it, but it was humiliating enough to prevent me from that type of acitng up again.

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Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/01/2007 15:21:05

Isn't verbal abuse just as bad WeeBerty?

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Aghast,

10/01/2007 15:21:44

everything in moderation. You cannot equate a paedophile with a parent disciplining his child.....agree with Tormod. Parents and teachers should have their ability to discipline their children. This does not mean brutalising or causing bodily harm. THe state and UN should stop nannying us around.

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Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 15:25:10

Once again WeeBerty I cannot state how wrong you are. I have read your opening statement and still can't believe it. Your second is above and behond my simple comprehension!!

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Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 15:28:48

Tormod - if you hit someone you are assulting them. you are protected in law against this unless -

you are a child assaulted by a parent or guardian.

The same action defined as legal or illegal depending on your age and relation to your assualter.

Ironically those most vulnerable are the ones who are denied their rights not to be assulated on the whim others.

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Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 15:29:10

WeeBerty I think you are getting a wee bit confused with whom I am, I believe you think I am somebody else and are using interesting Scots.

So whom do you think I am? Please explain?

Do you know what Tormod is?

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jaguar,

England 10/01/2007 15:32:03

Those people who think smacking promotes law-abiging adulthood have completely forgotten the fact that criminal behaviour is no worse than it has ever been. Take a look at Victorian England where severe corporal punishment was the norm and violence and law-breaking in everyday life quite common.
Those who say:' it never did me any harm' do not know how much better people they might have been if they had not been beaten.
Those who get angry at people who promote a ban on corporal punishment usually make clear that they are ill-tempered. One or two even say they smack when they lose thir tempers. Banning the law is telling parents not to lose their tempers with their children.

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Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/01/2007 15:32:15

So is abortion at 24 weeks ok then?

269

ConcernedParent,

10/01/2007 15:32:23

What a storm in a tea cup. The headline is sensationalist nonsense. We in the UK already have laws to prevent abuse of children. They've been on the books for years.

270

Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 15:37:26

Swede16 you are wrong, inaccurate and flawed in equating assault and smacking.

Once again we have a law that clearly outlines what is assault.

You have made a moral judgement that says all smacking is vile is aggresive assault towards a child no matter of the type / place - situation used.

By your definition if I tap my child on the hand as a warning not touch a fire or hot radiator that for you is assault correct? If I throw my child in the air and catch him in play and this leaves a bruise that is also assault correct?

Once again I will ask you to give me a metric / yardstick to measure what is and what is not child abuse by your judgement. Please.

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Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/01/2007 15:39:21

What about children hitting other children and leaving marks? Is that an offence?

What about verbal abuse, just as bad?

What about abortions up to 24 weeks, is that murder?

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Everything you do is a balloon,

10/01/2007 15:39:41

Smack people who advocate Smacking.

That seems to be answer here.

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Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 15:40:50

#276 - it might have been for you!

I don't usuall stoop t that level but for you i made an exception.

How does the law aon abortion lead you to the conclusion that child assualt is ok if it is carried out by parents+

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JG,

Fife 10/01/2007 15:41:23

I never did agree with anyone being able to hit children with items. It's suppposed to be a corrective smack not a beating. And I didn't like people hitting their kids on the head - look at the damage being hit on the head does to boxers. Shaking a very small child can do much more damage to them than a smack ever would.

Are there not a few more serious things the UN could perhaps turn their attention to? Or is just that being Britain we'll do what we're told. Probably even form a whole new department. With the "Anti-smacking" Minister. WITH portfolio. And a secretary. And their own car.

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Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/01/2007 15:42:44

And there we have it, Tumshie16 is advocating murder and assualt of another human being i.e. me.

You still haven't answered the question. Is it ok to abort a child at 24 weeks even though it can survive outside the womb after 22 weeks? Come on, answer the question.

276

Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 15:43:07

As I stated in #21. Discipline is paramount and if children step over the line it is entirely acceptable to give them a clip round the ear or a smack on the backside.

If I decide with my partner to have a child, it is my responsibility to instil discipline in that child. I decide what their rights are, nobody else. If they are rude to their elders they will receive a verbal warning. If fail to take heed of that warning they will receive a harsher verbal warning. Failure to comply with my requests thereafter will result in a smack on the backside or the back of the legs.

Respect for oneself, respect for others, politeness and a good appearance are all I can request from my kids. They receive a clip round the ear 4 or 5 times a year. Maybe if they begin listening that figure will reduce itself to zero.

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daveb,

MI. U.S.A. 10/01/2007 15:43:11

Spare the rod and spoil the child. Now the U.N. is telling us how to raise our children. What next???

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Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 15:44:50

WeeBertie I don't have to look it up are using the poor piece of legislation written by the Scot Exec or the common law as it was before.

I take it you have decided to stop using colourful language as you obviously think I am not the BB you were referring too.

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Courtney,

East Molesey 10/01/2007 15:44:53

The UN is out of control. A totally ineffectual organisation wasting taxpayers money hand over fist.

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JG,

Fife 10/01/2007 15:45:25

#283 Dave
I think you'll find the reason no-one is answering you is that it's not a discussion about abortion. There was one last week and I'm sure the topic will occur again - only not now!

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Tomdonald,

Falkirk 10/01/2007 15:48:14

Its a long time ago but I remember the shock at seeing a perfect print of my palm on my boy's backside. Even then I thought such "photographic" evidence was not a good thing. Since then I modified my "smacking" to using the first 2 fingers as a whip across the calf. Very effective on grandchildren too! I don't recall ever having to repeat the process on any of the 11 of them either!

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Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 15:50:21

Tormod - you are wrong, inaccurate and flawed in pretending smacking is not a form of assault.

The whole point of smacking is to deliberatly inflict pain as punishment.
Causing bruising by accident in a game is clearly not assault( applies to any age).
A tap on the head to attract intention is clearly not assault. A thump on the head to attract attention by hurting is.


I never said all 'smacking' is vile. that is a matter of degree. Beating small children black and blue would be vile , a smack on the legs while not vile is still wrong and uneceessary.

The trouble is there are many parents who don't even see that distinction.

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Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/01/2007 15:52:30

JG

It is perfectly relevant. Allow me to explain.

It has been medically proven that a foetus can survive outside the womb after 22 weeks but in the UK we allow abortions up to 24 weeks and we have all seen the 3D images of a 24 week old foetus, it is fully formed.

If these people who are against the smaking of kids are for abrotions at 24 weeks they then are hypocrits for advocating murder. It is a relevant question and Tumshie16 who has been espousing the virtues of not smaking kids advocated the abortion of me as a feotus at 24 weeks and therefore murder, making him a hypocrit and compeltely undermines his/her argument.

So those of you who are against the smaking of kids. Answer the question, is it ok to abort a feotus at 24 weeks?

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Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 15:52:38

Tomdonald-
so you have used this on 2 generations of kids!!

Clearly it is inneffective.

Have you tried talking to them instead.

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Em,

Scotland 10/01/2007 15:57:26

What right has the UN got to dictate the way we raise our children,

This is the same UN that around 10 years ago funded the tetanus vaccination scheme (only for women) in 130 countries, it was later found that these women had become infertile because the vaccination supplies had become permiated with a very expensive female hormone required to bring a pregnancy to term, the body then built up anti-bodies not just against the tetanus but against the hormone, women found they could get pregnant but they would miscarry in the first month, and this was the case in all countries even though the vaccination was manufactured in numerous countries, but as usual this has been swept under the carpet.

So as I said before, what right does the UN have to tell us how to raise our children when in other parts of the world they are committing such attrocities against the human race.
I'm not advocating that children should be beaten (far from it), but how do you reason with a three year old, a light smack on the wrist is not going to mentally or physically scar that child but will avert them from behaving in a way that may be dangerous to themselves or others.
Smacking should be used as a last resort and should not be administered excessivley, but our very rights are rappidly being taken away from us and without our rights we become slaves.

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Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 15:59:17

Dave from Barrow - i'm against abortion at 24 weeks.

Anyone could see i made the comment tongue in cheek to answer your irrelevant side-tracking argument.
anyway i cannot even be accused of advocating murder since it is still legal afaik!.

So were does that leave you - i am agains abortion and smacking. you'll have to stick to the issue know.

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Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 15:59:58

Swede16 you have just been disolved by your own logic, by your definition there is no matter of degree, you have stated smacking is assault no degree of movement there.

I have never stated that hitting a child black and blue is acceptable of course it isn't and would never dream of doing so.

What the law you advocate would do is to remove the degree of separation from discipline to assault.

And again it comes down to your moral judgement, and you are telling me that your judgement is superior to mine. I don't agree.

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Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 16:03:01

Media 1 - you are constantly rude to others on here. By your own definition should be at the level of receiving capital punishment by now.
But it "widnae harm you"

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Em,

Scotland 10/01/2007 16:03:44

What right has the UN got to dictate the way we raise our children,

This is the same UN that around 10 years ago funded the tetanus vaccination scheme (only for women) in 130 countries, it was later found that these women had become infertile because the vaccination supplies had become permiated with a very expensive female hormone required to bring a pregnancy to term, the body then built up anti-bodies not just against the tetanus but against the hormone, women found they could get pregnant but they would miscarry in the first month, and this was the case in all countries even though the vaccination was manufactured in numerous countries, but as usual this has been swept under the carpet.

So as I said before, what right does the UN have to tell us how to raise our children when in other parts of the world they are committing such attrocities against the human race.
I'm not advocating that children should be beaten (far from it), but how do you reason with a three year old, a light smack on the wrist is not going to mentally or physically scar that child but will avert them from behaving in a way that may be dangerous to themselves or others.
Smacking should be used as a last resort and should not be administered excessivley, but our very rights are rappidly being taken away from us and without our rights we become slaves.

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Em,

Scotland 10/01/2007 16:08:11

sorry about the double posting,

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Voldemort,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 16:09:45

I see weebertie is still 'flogging' his dead horse ...

Bumping into somebody is technically assault. The bottom (no pun intended!) line is that since we have removed corporal punishment from schools the kids have run amock and we have lost control.

It all boils down to the fact that folk like weebertie want to tell us how we should bring up our kids - he/she was probably a sad little case at school and perhaps was the 'victim' over over zealous belting - who knows what the excuse is .. and in fact who cares ... he/she is now on some sort of mission and is so warped that they can't tell the difference between good strong harmless discipline and beating the living daylights out of some 5 year old - one is as bad as the other - it's all Assault apparently ... what tripe!!!

You bring up your kids how you like weebertie and those who agree with him/her ... you will bring up a bunch of losers much like yourselves ...

Parents who belive in slighty stricter methods - your children are the future, the winners and the leaders ...

....... and a hearty well done from Lord Voldemort for standing strong against these wishy washy nambi pambi do gooder LOSERS !

Corporal punishment works - being a big softy disnae!!

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Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 16:10:02

Tormod it i you who has the logical dilemma. What i advocate would remove the grey area which you want to have in law. On the on hand beating black and blue is not ok but a "wee clip round the ear" is ok. The trouble is there are many degres in between. All forms of assault. Just make it illegal. No one is advocating throwing parents in jail for a one off slap on the legs. like any 'assault' the punishment would fit the degree of the assualt and how often it occurred.

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Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 16:13:28

Voldemort - bumping into someone is not assault unless deliberatly done to hurt.

Slapping people about according to you is not assault - fine next time you annoy someone then they should feel free to slap you about since it is not assault.

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Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 16:13:55

Swede 16: Its not that I am rude, its just that I do not suffer fools.

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Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 16:18:05

EM - so because some part of the UN does something wrong we should all be free to assualt our Children ?

296

Steve here,

here 10/01/2007 16:19:23

When I was a child my dad gave me what could only be termed as a beating with the belt. Welts were typically the result. I can remember thinking that I could have been reasoned with instead, as most of the time it was for the most minor of infractions. These hidings and beatings came daily as well as loads of verbal abuse. No one at the time would have labeled my dad as a child abuser..this was the norm in my neighbourhood. It drove an unspoken wedge between my dad and me that could never be mended. Now before you start in on my dad, he was raised the same way...he was doing what he thought was proper, but he said to me that each generation should find a better way for the next generation. I swore i would never hit my kid, and so far i haven't seen the need to. there is a great difference between a beating and a smack...in school most of us just laughed off the belt or smack, it did'nt mean anything. the UN is way off on this one ..it the beatings that need banning, the smack yer mum gives you is just to get your attention, if it does not go past that..no harm done.

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duke shizzler,

scotland 10/01/2007 16:20:45

Yeah but the point is #300Sweden16 that you would like to criminalise good parents for using smacking as an effective discipline tool on naughty kids just because there are bad parents out there who abuse their kids in the name of smacking. Thats wrong.

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Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 16:22:29

Media 1 your last statement fits in with your "we arra peepul" mentality. A misplaced arrogance and superiority based on little substance.

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Michael G. McKay,

Fredericton, New Brunswick Canada 10/01/2007 16:22:29

The day we remove the Parents obligation and right to dicipline his or, her Child is the day when we have lawlessness in the land. The bible states that Stubernness is born in the heart of a Child, but the rod of correction will drive it far from them. notice I said the rod of correcion not the rod of abuseThe government has no right to tell Parents how to raise and correct their Children unless they are in a rage and punching their child's head against a wall.

This crap that if a Parent tries to use corporal punishment the child will be taken from them is nothing more then a diabolical attempt to destroy the fabric of the family unit.

300

Em,

Scotland 10/01/2007 16:25:20

swede16,
You are missing my point comletley, did you bother to read my posting. I hardly think that a slap on the wrist can be classed as assault, If a young child tries to put his hand in a burning fire and repeatedly does not heed warning would you simply allow them to burn themselves or would you give a light slap on the wrist to avert them from injuring themselves to a greater degree.

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Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 16:26:56

No I want to stop parents using using smacking as an INEFFECTIVE discipline tool on naughty kids. (and a lazy one at that)
It is not necessary.

It works here in Scandanavia.

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duke shizzler,

scotland 10/01/2007 16:32:02

#310 Sweden16 you cannot defend your position because its indefinsible, and its only YOUR preference. If you dont like smacking, dont smack your children good luck with that...

303

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 16:33:15

Em. All parents including myself face the problem of teaching their child to avoid burning themselves (amostly around the cooker or hot radiators)

I cannot imagine how stupid the parent has to be to allow it to get to the stage of having to slap the children on the wrist.


Do they not talk to their children?

A slap on the wrist intended to hurt is assualt however you like to dress it up.

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Royal*Is*My*Race,

Earth 10/01/2007 16:34:28

Scottwebb, Happy Belated Birthday!
A well placed hand on a well deserving bum works wonders! Who are these people to say that you can't warm a bottom? If it saves a child from doing something stupid or dangerous, by all means, give them a smack! Worked for me! :>}

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Em,

Scotland 10/01/2007 16:35:08

That is like saying that you would not push your child out of the way of a moving veichle in case you injured them while shoving them.

306

Pernickity,

10/01/2007 16:35:22

309 - a light slap on the wrist would not be classed as an assault if it was done to an adult so neither would it be classed as an assault if it was done to a child. Please use your common sense.

However it is completely LEGAL in this country to assault a child in a way that, if an adult was the victim, would be a criminal offence and could result in the perpetrator being imprisoned.

Anyone who supports this is, in my view, deeply sick.

It's time to give children exactly the same protection against assault that adults have and I hope whoever is elected in May will do just that.

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Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 16:35:33

Duke it is your camp - the child assaulters - who are in the dock. you don't have to defend yourself agains NOT hitting children.

I don't need luck. It is the children who suffer at the hands af over-zealous parents who do.

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Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 16:36:01

Swede16 There is no flaw in my logic, what you are advocating is removing the degrees of separation, you or somebody else is going to write a law that states and gives example of what is or isn't acceptable by your moral guidance and not the democratic balance of the nation.

Once again your use of the word assault is incredible provocative you are making a moral judgement on my behaviour towards my child you are taking my right to raise my child and you are deciding in the scope, breadth and length of whatever punishment you then see fit.

You are effectively deciding on how I should raise my child, I have no say, no right of appeal no degree of separation between state and personal freedom. I know that there is a huge raft of control legislation in Sweden built up over the last half century.

Has this legislation stopped children from being physically / mentally / sexually abused?

No, the reason is no law will physical stop a bad person committing a serious offence on a child.

If you ban smacking, children - parents and society is drawn into a maelstrom of self perpuating hand wringing.

309

Mallard,

10/01/2007 16:38:46

Perhaps the Children's Commissioner should heed some advice I received from a senior colleague in my youth before sending reports to the UN.
"Dinnae f... yer gaffer or ye'll no have him long."

310

Everything you do is a balloon,

10/01/2007 16:39:24

A light kick in the teeth should stop most things.

311

Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 16:39:32

Swede 16: Not sure I follow your last comment, but then having read through most of the posts on here, not many people follow you!

However, your entitled to your opinions, regardless that most are insignificant rantings!

312

Country lad, oo aarh!,

Isle of Skye 10/01/2007 16:41:28

Stuff the UN - and the EC for good measure! It's about time we got our country back and were allowed to run our own affairs. Look where PC, lack of discipline at home and in the schools has got us now. Bordering on anarchy!

I agree with 270.
And by the way everybody - the correct spelling is ASSAULT! Just one more example of the sloppy grammar/spelling/thinking of some of The Scotsman paper's correspondents.

313

Rob me blind,

10/01/2007 16:41:41

A short sharp smack is far better than some of the psychological treatment that some parents dole out. I have a friend in her fifties who was never smacked but was always put down and who still believes she is worthless.

To hell with the UN lets get our youngsters back on track and get them to realise that actions have consequences.

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The Raging Savant,

The Upper Middle Lower Country 10/01/2007 16:41:51

Those who are behind this absurd big-brother effort need to be smacked. Too bad they weren't the receivers of the other big U.N. push--Abortion.

As for Swedey-Pie, well, you're clueless. You're reactionary in general and ill-informed in particular. You have no sense of proportion or logic.

Smack your kids' little bums, Scotland. Don't listen to the gutless, mindless, and actually uncaring who believe that such simple discipline (which they surely lacked) is barbaric or outdated. Such simpering U.N. boot-licking is to be expected from some, always and on any topic.

315

Keith Lagden,

10/01/2007 16:42:25

Children NEED discipline, they need to know boundaries, other wise they'll grow up worthless pieces of society.

316

Keith Lagden,

10/01/2007 16:43:09

#321 NOT a bad idea, I like your thinking

317

Pernickity,

10/01/2007 16:45:10

To other posters who complain about the UN telling us what to do. The UK voluntarily signed up to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and as far as I am aware every political party in Scotland supports that.

The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child makes it quite clear that governments should protect children from assault and violence. The UN therefore has every right to criticise the UK and Scottish governments for ignoring a major plank of the Convention they signed up to.

Now, if tneither the UK or Scottish government had no intention to implement the provisions in the Convention then why did they sign up to it in the first place?

Because they want to appear as though they care about children when in reality they couldn't care less is my cynical interpretation.

318

Pernickity,

10/01/2007 16:47:53

319 you should remember that attitudes can change fairly quickly.

50 years ago it was a husband's business if he gave his wife a 'wee tap' when she got out of line. It was normal and people accepted it.

Now they don't and it is everybody's business, including the police's busibess.

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Em,

Scotland 10/01/2007 16:53:38

pernickity

What about the rights of the parent, one day these rights will be taken away to such an extent that it will be deemed unsafe for children to be brought up by there parents at all. More horrendous abuse than simply smacking takes place when children are put into the care of the child protection services but I don't hear you mention that.

320

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 16:56:23

Tormod it is the rights of your child not to be hit I am concerned about - not your rights as an adult to hit your children.

Your argument is flawed again. Legislation against e.g theft or any crime does not of course stop all crime. But we don't just say - ok never mind. Allowing hitting leads in many cases to escalation which ultimately leads to asualt and abuse.

Of course there are some 'neds' ,for want of a better word, here as well but not because hitting small children is not allowed. In general i feel the 'nedish' behaviour has always been wors in Britain than in Scandanavia

321

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 16:58:57

Raging savants intolerance grows and he resorts to lashing out with puerile insults. The fruits of disciplined upbringing I suspect.

322

Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 17:00:45

#329: There is a way of smacking a child and every parent knows how to do it within a manner which is acceptable.

I love my kids,but if they midbehave to the point in which I believe they need a smack then they get it. I do not hurt them, I remind them of the consequence to their actions and trust that they wont do it again,,

What your talking about is abuse! Those people will always abuse, no law will cure them!

323

Tormod,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 17:01:27

329 Pernickity deciding how to discipline isn't down to attitude that's a rather silly comparison to use domestic abuse.

And mental abuse is far more insidious and effects both sexes but how can you prove that in a court of law.

324

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 17:02:49

Ok em - to make it simple for you - hitting and abusing childres in institutions is also criminal and i am absolutly against that to. clear enough?

Now back to the issue - why is it acceptable for a grown man to hit a defenceless child when if he did that to,say, a work mate he would be sacked and possibly charged?

325

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 17:04:39

"No I want to stop parents using using smacking as an INEFFECTIVE discipline tool on naughty kids. (and a lazy one at that)
It is not necessary.

Just thought I'd bring your attention to a typo ... you put 'IN' in front of 'Effective' ... giving the misleading impression that corporal punishment is 'ineffective' ... I trust you stand corrected and suitablely chastised ...

"It works here in Scandinavia" - I am sure it does ..... n't.

326

Em,

Scotland 10/01/2007 17:04:57

swede16

Since you are so fond of using the term assault when referring to people who slap there children
the cambridge english dictionary states

ASSAULT : a violent attack (he was charged with sexual assault

SLAP : A quick hit with the flat part of the hand (she gave her son a slap for behaving badly)

327

John N. Gillies,

Glasgow 10/01/2007 17:06:55

323 - I agree fully with you - "Stuff the UN and EEC for good measure"
Absolutely correct - and here in Scotland we have the SNP pressing to take us out of the United Kingdom and bundle us into the EEC instead (selling us out to Brussels) - trouble in the making ...............indeed

328

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 17:07:16

Media 1 - every parent doesn't know how to do it within a manner which is acceptable!!!! - that is the problem

It is not necessary or acceptable. Try talking!

329

duke shizzler,

scotland 10/01/2007 17:08:39

#332Sweden 16 If there is one part of the world we would do well not to take a lead from its Scandanavia, liberalism gone crazy.
One example, did you know that paedophiles are openly tolerated in your country, actually legally allowed (and actually do) have paedophile societies with their own websites and members (numbering 10's of thousands), how can that be good for bringing up children?

330

Sambo,

The deep south 10/01/2007 17:10:23

I think tormod and wee bertie should go into a ring put the gloves on and SMACK the sh*t out of each other.

331

Em,

Scotland 10/01/2007 17:12:13

swede16

Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.

I agree that there is a minority of parents who do not know how to excercise control when disciplining there child, but the majority of parents do

332

CANUCK,

10/01/2007 17:13:53

Scots know their own and they know how they have to be delt with - like others who were at school in the 50'sand 60's i had the belt, the cane and the blackboard duster - I loved my school the teachers and the time I was there -kept in touch with them for years afterwrads. Also if i stepped out of line at home same thing a smack or a belting, I had a good childhood and I loved my parents.We all learnt where the line was drawn and we had respect - the children today are so confused and all I see in them is hatred, hostility, anger, agression,
direspect and politness does not even enter their brain.
I for one agree with smacking and with belting for disilpine purposes both at school and at home -however beating a child for other reasons is different and that I cannot agree.
Does anyone know if the Isle of man still has the "lash" - sixof the lash for the ASBO'S would certainly sort that lot out and fast..

333

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 10/01/2007 17:18:35

There is a little known English law that permits a man to beat his wife every Tuesday with a stick no thicker than his thumb, hence the phrase "rule of thumb".

Anyways, we have a dilema. Some folks are ok about corporal punishment for kids as well as abortions at 24 weeks. Some folks are against corporal punishment and abortions at 24 weeks, some folks are against corporal punishment but against abortions at 24 weeks (a relevant arguement by Dave as it shows where people stand re:murder of unborn children)

What a confusing time we live in.

334

Shug,

UK 10/01/2007 17:21:07

Banning smacking would be a pointless piece of legislation in the sense that it would be very difficult to monitor and enforce. Having said that, the benefit of bringing in the legislation is more one of publicity and education.

The legislation would not stop those who all ready overstep the mark (and break the law as it stands) but it might well deter the majority from using unecessary physical chastisement.

Many people clearly think it is fair to smack kids when they feel they are out of line. Kids are people and as others have pointed out, if you hit an adult who wasn't doing as they were told you would run the risk of being charged. It should be no different for kids.

Truly bad and unruly kids are still a minority in my view. There is no doubt society and the family unit have changed dramatically in a very short period of time. More single parents and many more families where both parents have to work. TV, the Internet etc all force kids to grow up too quickly in my view. Challenging parents authority is part of growing up. This is probably happening at an earlier stage than in the past. This is all bound to have a far more disruptive affect than whether or not you can smack a child.

335

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 17:21:44

duke - you are talking rubbish
paedophilia is abhorred and illegal in this country like any decent country. so peddle your lies elsewhere!

336

Jimmy The Hip,

I'LL Give You A Clip On The Lug 10/01/2007 17:23:31

I remember a kid getting a clip on the ear from a police officer for throwing sticks at cars passing under the junction at Charing Cross, Glasgow. When the officer let go of the kid he ran crying across four lanes of traffic at the same junction.

Maybe the kid stopped throwing things at cars, but I bet the policeman stopped clipping kids on the lugs.

337

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 17:24:11

EM- slapping is assault. Go out and slap a child in th e street in fullview of a police officer and you will soon agree.

A Harrisburg day-care worker was charged Thursday with assault on a child under 12 after the boy's mother reported the worker to authorities.

Betty Hagler told Cabarrus County Sheriff's deputies that after she dropped her 3-year-old son off at Harrisburg Presbyterian Church Child Development Center, she saw Anita Hasty, 56, grab the boy by the arm, sit him down in a chair and slap him in the face.

338

Swede16,

Sweden 10/01/2007 17:25:01

nice anecdote jimmy!

339

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 10/01/2007 17:25:37

paedophiles and pyschologist would tell you that it's not their fault and they were born that way (like homosexuality). Does that mean we should treat them with compassion like we do homosexuals (well some of us anyway)? What do we do with paedophiles anyway?

340

Shug,

UK 10/01/2007 17:31:27

351. I would suggest they are locked up and castrated for a start.

341

jimaiv,

Canada 10/01/2007 17:32:02

aghast #'s 246 & 270
I am 100% in aggreement

342

Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 17:33:23

Swede: Sometimes talking isnt enough! Actions speak louder than words, its been like that for millenia!

343

Em,

Scotland 10/01/2007 17:35:16

swede16

You are clearly bringing up stories of cases that I agree are not acceptable treatment of a 3 year old,

but you can't mix everything in together, everything is not black and white.

Anyway I would not feel it appropriate for me to slap another persons child, and would only slap my own child in cases where they continued to misbehave after recieving several warnings

344

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 10/01/2007 17:37:49

http://environment.uwe.ac.uk/commsafe/euswed.asp

Very interesting reading. It appears that Sweden has one of the highest recroded crime rates in Europe but follow a more integrated approach to crime prevention. No mention of smacking kids though.

345

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 10/01/2007 17:45:40

Gordon

I should have said "was" as apposed to "is" on that one. However, it hasn't ben repealed in Gurnsey but I'm sure the Human Rights Act over rides said law. It's where the phrase "rule of thumb" comes from though, from the beating of wimmin.

346

Anndra Ailean,

10/01/2007 17:45:43

Billy#53 'children are born wild animals'
I think you'll find children are born with potential to be good or bad, and are usually Influenced by their surroundings. We do start to teach children things far too late, and I don't mean in the stupid way most schools do, I mean everyday skills, including their senses.

347

Reiver,

Borders 10/01/2007 17:49:15

Well I don't smack my kids, the eldest is 21 right down to 6 ... never had any need to.

To be frank, I can't see why you just don't improve your people skills and outsmart the children without resorting to violence ... I suspect that its just that the average Scottish ned is just way too stupid to manage outsmarting a screaming wean ... and they even have the audacity to suggest that they can run their own country ... heaven forbid !!!

348

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 10/01/2007 17:56:57

Gordon

Likewise, I came to the same conclusions as yourself re:crime rate in Sweden (we won't even talk about Gurnsey!). However, they must be doing something right. Thier relationship with the police must be better than our own if they feel that they can phone in a complaint/crime and know it will be dealt with. Crimes such as juvenile deliquency etc. You will be aware of the standard response from our own police regarding juvenile deliquency...........

It doesn't help when it seems that juveniles seem to have more rights than the decent ordinary tax paying citizens of this country.

349

Em,

Scotland 10/01/2007 17:57:07

Reiver

I suppose you would rather we had the U.N dictate everything that goes on in our country, believe me when I say they have done far worse than smacking children.

350

Chuckster,

10/01/2007 17:58:11

Good for the executive! Banning smacking is a farce. Smacking a child won't necessarily leave marks so it'll be he said she said. It also gives some particularly difficult children the ability to blackmail parents. "I'll say you smacked me unless..." A pretty effective threat if a parent wants to avoid the legal system.

As to whether it is right or wrong to smack a child; that's a parent's choice. If a child habitually plays in a dangerous area like the street, or the woods; I think it's the parent's duty to do whatever it takes to change the undesirable behavior.

351

Russell,

SCOTTISH REPUBLIC IN EXILE 10/01/2007 18:09:35

So much for don't smack the child, what happens? They are unruly and grow up fearing no reprisals for any crimes or antisocial behavior I say smack them ,they will grow up better for it .If you put your hand on a hot coal does it not get burned ? Yes it does ,you remember and think twice before you do it again.

352

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 10/01/2007 18:15:18

Never felt like or had the need to physically strike my kids. I was leathered by my mother with the dog's lead as she tried to dictate her values into me.

OK, sometimes I had transgressed, like nicking loose change from my parents. The only effect the whuppings had on me was a loss of confidence.

People who physically strike their children need to look at their own shortcomings first. Same goes for those in our parliament.

353

educational snob,

Edinburgh 10/01/2007 18:20:08

Politically correct nonsense! Every sensible human being is against causing children physical or mental harm. But, to say that a child old enough to understand the reason for it shouldn't receive a 'proper smack' for cheek or wilful disobedience is utter rubbish. If you ask the majority of sensible adults, you'll find that the vast majority of them were smacked for things which they will openly admit they richly deserved, and how that it did them a lot of good in their character formation.

By contrast, thanks to the do-gooders and EU frowners, we in Britain nowadays have to put up with the utmost cheek and downright rudeness from children, who are turning into the irresponsible parents of tomorrow. Thanks for nothing! By the way, I think Ian Rutherford's picture with the article serves to cloud the issue even further, since nobody in their right mind should consider that a baby of this age and stage should be smacked. For every sound practice, there are always those who want to use extreme examples to discredit proper practice. All they end up doing is throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

354

Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 18:20:28

Ken: You really need to take a long look at yourself in the mirror! Pull yourself toward yourself man!!!

If a kid is naughty you give them a quick clip around the ear or a smack on the arse! End of story.

Thats a smack, anything else is a beating! And regardless of the rules you try to enforce on society based on your own minority situation, the people who beat will always beat.!

What you are attempting to do is hold society at large to ransom for the ills of a few. THAT DOES NOT WORK, that will only lead to anarchy and chaos!

355

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 10/01/2007 18:21:34

Gordon

I believe you are right. We are moving slowly toward a police state, like Sweden which I think has a detrimental effect on creativity and over all thought. Rebellion is healthy.

356

Russell,

SCOTTISH REPUBLIC IN EXILE 10/01/2007 18:21:51

I see so many names on this comment sight during working hours , and much less in after hours, makes me wonder how many wasters are wasting company time and employers profits and say they have an opinion on Independence etc, when the should give up their jobs and get into politics . Although many of these wasters would do the same and sink Scotland before we could be profitable

357

Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 18:26:09

#371 Educational Snob!

Well said and well put!

358

JG,

Fife 10/01/2007 18:42:11

#372
I really don't agree with hitting people on the head - a smack on the @rse, fine - but not the head.

So having criminalised all of the parents who smack their children (and given the legal position of people who assault children) what are you all going to do then? If you can't let those who have hit a child work with them, how are you going allow them to live together? Are you going to take them all into care? Where will you put them all?

359

Russell,

SCOTTISH REPUBLIC IN EXILE 10/01/2007 18:42:15

Sorry. Perhaps I was being a bit vitriolic but I get a wee bit hot under the collar when I see the same names every other posting day in day out. Obviously you are well educated, well versed, well whatever. You know what is going on. You like/dislike certain persona in the media/public office and you moan/winge so eloquently that the podium you should be using could be one which earns your salary and makes Scotland a better place.
You complain about your MPs but what else do you do? Do you belong to political parties? Partake in rallies? Do you exercise your right to vote (not as per your family history but in your own conscience? Is it possible you discuss these matters openly with friends/associates and try to convince them of your ideology? Is it possible that you only use this forum to let off your steam? If you are employed whilst doing this are you using up company time and equipment to let off this steam? If so you are guilty of theft which is causing Scotland to suffer. If this is the case then I would suggest you examine your conscience, buy your own computer and do what is ethical and use your own time and equipment.
You seem to be a "gaggle of wingers" who could put their sentiments to far better use and further Scottish interests by being more proactive in the political arena. You could make it!
BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY I THOROUGHLY ENJOY YOUR COMMENTS AND APPRECIATE THE SPACE AFFORDED TO US BY THE SCOTSMAN - AND BY NO MEANS IS IT ALL WASTED BUT THE AFOREMENTIONED COMMENTS I FEEL HAVE TO BE VOICED.
Too much have I heard the phrase "but what can we do about it?" You are fortunate. You can do something about it. I sit 6000 miles away having had my vote STOLEN by Margaret Thatcher even though I was registered for paying poll tax and therefore qualified to vote in all elections.
Do something positive and we may return "home".

360

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 10/01/2007 18:43:02

#372, Media 1. What do you mean me? Or is your use of the term "you" plural or a personal mirror reflection?

361

Russell,

SCOTTISH REPUBLIC IN EXILE 10/01/2007 18:44:07

Gordon the comments were made for those who are guilty ,not for the innocent

362

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 10/01/2007 18:45:12

Russell, nice to see your name again

363

Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 18:47:52

#379 Ken: I mean you mate, you need to sort yourself out..your obviously suffering from the effects of abuse. A mother who beats her child with a dog lead in order to instil her values in him is an abuser.

Thats a different thing, we are talking about smacking, there is a difference so huge it is impossible to wed the two unless you are a myopic PC twit..

364

Russell,

SCOTTISH REPUBLIC IN EXILE 10/01/2007 18:49:06

Thank you ken same here

365

,

10/01/2007 18:50:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 275386, Article id was mapped to record!
366

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 10/01/2007 18:52:08

Yeah, Media 1 I need to sort myself out. Do you suggest I should start smacking my kids?

367

Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 18:56:07

#385 Ken: As long as your intentions are NOT to harm them then it is perfectly acceptable to do so in instances in which they are disobediant, rude or behaving in an unacceptable manner!

368

GrannieM,

Virginia 10/01/2007 18:57:01

May I say hooray for Scotland? I surely would not approve beating a helpless child. But a smack on the behind gets their attention much better then talking reason to a 2-5 year old. What is reason to this age?
My daughter-in-law had Social Services called on her for smacking the hand of her two year while eating out.
This is the state of things in the US.

369

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 10/01/2007 19:02:43

media 1. You sound like a PC PRO for the smacking lobby. How many of the unruly youths out there were smacked? Don't suppose we'll ever know

370

retiredsco,

USA, New York 10/01/2007 19:03:28

To yeild ANY authority to the UN is absurd. That body cannot control itself. ie. financial scandals of outgoing Anan., other situations mentioned in previous comments. I would like the UN to float away and sink.
I raised two children to resposible adulthood and used corporal punishment only once. Once used set a precedent and was a deterent to even thinking about serious misbehavior.

371

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 10/01/2007 19:07:58

Gordon, I get annoyed by people who say we should only be on here at a given time. Having said that - freedom of speech.

Maybe I should be smacked for it, but I cannot help giving sarcastic responses to things from time to time. Anyway, it's more entertaining than the telly as I find it real, down to earth, local and global.

372

Heilan laddie,

Inverness 10/01/2007 19:09:05

Scotland faces 'global disgrace' for Executive failure to ban smacking

Come on Scotsman! Surely you can report better things than this. I have never read so much crap in all my life.
I was brought up with smacking if I done wrong, had the belt at the school and if you were caught doing something you were'nt supposed to be doing by the police, a good kick up the arse was in order. Thats whats missing in this country. It never done me any harm or anyone else I know.

373

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 10/01/2007 19:11:51

391. Time the Americans got smacked. Naughty boys and girls

374

Tom01,

UK 10/01/2007 19:12:51

What a load a crap. What happens if we refuse to comply - sanctions and then invasion by Bush and his cronies

375

sonofascot mother,

USA 10/01/2007 19:13:54

I could not even chew gum in school
if the school sent a note home that I
did wrong I got trouble at home. The
Bible says "spare the rod and spoil the child" I was the first boy after six girls.( who me spoiled?} I was born in 1933 raised 7 from 1953 on
all of which are married and happy
with no school drop outs. 4 with
college degrees. If you read the news about the smell in NY it was
the BS form the UN

376

Media 1,

cape town 10/01/2007 19:19:58

Anarchy is on the way!

Look at alot of the children of today,no manners, no ambitions, no pride, no self respect, no respect for their elders, no respect for private property, no respect for teachers, no respect for their parents, no respect for school and no morals.

YES all this talking to them is doing a whole lot of good!

377

Russell,

SCOTTISH REPUBLIC IN EXILE 10/01/2007 19:21:23

Now lets be careful , there is the ordinary American people ,not really much different from most of us, Aaaah but then there is the American elite and the oil companies and the government ,probably in that Order too. Now there is a Beast

378

motorcal,

michigan,U.S.A. 10/01/2007 19:25:18

Why is the U.N. concerned about the smacking of children[by their parents]The lack of a spanking when called for is probablythe reason for the abundance of the young yobs we are dealing with now.I wish I had a pound for the timesmy father administered a spanking to me when I was growing up-guess what? I turned out to be a perfectly normal adult anyway.What is the U.N. doing about the barbaric medieval laws that allow a woman to be hanged for killing a scumbag who was trying to rape her and probablya lot worse.

379

Russell,

SCOTTISH REPUBLIC IN EXILE 10/01/2007 19:25:21

now they should be smacked ,preferably in the mouth.What were the israelis doing to the palistinians ,if not smacking,beating them .the yanks too ,
.do they get taken to a court of law?

380

sonofascot mother,

USA sonofa scot mother 10/01/2007 19:26:16

The Un should be disbanded as the
most corrupt institution in history.
Same goes for EU. What has been gained, more what has been lost?
National pride(patriotism) Languages, Traditions, Faith.We
restore an old building for posterity
and lose our identity fo culturalism.

381

Em,

Scotland 10/01/2007 19:28:51

retiredsco

I agree with you completley about the U.N

and have you ever seen the European Parliament building in Brussels, could they make that look any more like the tower of Babel, and what about the statue of the woman riding the beast right outside it.

What does that tell you.

382

Russell,

SCOTTISH REPUBLIC IN EXILE 10/01/2007 19:31:15

402 YOUR COMMENT WOULD BE BETTER ADDRESSED TO A BIBLE STUDY GROUP

383

Russell,

SCOTTISH REPUBLIC IN EXILE 10/01/2007 19:33:22

The four horsemen?

384

Russell,

SCOTTISH REPUBLIC IN EXILE 10/01/2007 19:34:22

Which one are you

385

Pilrig,

Livingston 10/01/2007 19:34:59

Amazing the nostalgia for the Lochgelly panacea. It worked ? Not in my case, I got belted plenty from the teachers, it didn't change my habits very much. If it really worked naebody would have got it a second time. The belt is history, get over it, move on.

386

Russell,

SCOTTISH REPUBLIC IN EXILE 10/01/2007 19:36:28

that must be the last word .goodnight

387

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 10/01/2007 19:36:37

The real reason for unruly youths is that we need another war. Military service for all those excess males who require to be culled.

Round 'em all up, train them with short, sharp military discipline and send them over the top.

America is doing the right thing in this respect by picking fights with all and sundry. It is, after all what made it the dominant western power and what put great into Britain before that.

388

Em,

Scotland 10/01/2007 19:37:53

Russell

Not the four horsemen, but the whore of Babylon

I'm not wanting to get into a religous debate, but rather bringing to the attention that the E.U has adopted the image of the woman riding the beast in numerous places, this should give some idea of where there agendas lie

389

Ileach,

10/01/2007 19:39:58

I unashamedly admit that I smacked my boy on the bottom when he needed smacking. While he was under 3 years of age, the best effect was the noise effect from the plastic disposable nappy that I actually did smack - it made an impressive sound that put a bit of respect into the young man at the time. I have always felt it was my right, or even responsibility, to correct my child - not beat him, mind you, but correct him in a manner that he would remember. If he presented me with grandweans today, I would feel exactly the same. I don't need the UN to tell me how to raise my kids.

390

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 10/01/2007 19:44:13

The Labour Executive is not going to do anything that would prevent the next generation of Labour voters.

391

Pilrig,

Livingston 10/01/2007 19:44:59

#407 you're right mate. I'm off to watch the super Hibees on the telly, caio.

392

sonofascot mother,

USA sonofa scot mother 10/01/2007 19:49:15

I wish to comment on usa bashing.
DO NOT use the media AB NBC,CBS
FOX( NOT to be confused with
FOX NEWS no connection. The next
thing that does not protray americans is TV and Holywood, I
get my news on the net and I do
watch some of FoX News.Here are
a few facts you will not see on TV.
80% of americans believe in GOD
75% Believe Jesus is the son of God
12% think the jurnalists are good
13% think Congress is good
39% like Bush
this poll is about 2 weeks old by
only the part on Bush was in the news. If I believed all I see and read
on the BBC and the papers I would
be afraid to go there, but at the
same time millions from around the
world are tring to get here legally and sadly illegally. If other places are so great why are people leaving
to come here. Do not believe all you hear on the telly and be skeptical of the rest.

393

Sambo,

The deep south 10/01/2007 19:57:34

#408, Ken M,
I agree, bring back the draft, I was drafted into the US Army 11 months after landing in the US from Scotland. All the guys learned discipline, not that I needed it, my father was a strict disciplinarion.
The draft would smarten up some of the yobs that are roaming the streets today.

394

Heilan laddie,

Inverness 10/01/2007 21:06:31

One thing I must say about American kids is that they are so much more mannerly than kids in the UK. Having lived in the deep south for four years I did notice a big difference.
I once dropped my wallet in a Wallmart car park. A you kid of about 15 or 16 years old came running after me and said"Excuse me sir, you have dropped your wallet" and gave it back to me. If that happened here in Scotland I am sure he would have ran off with it.

395

Graeme M,

10/01/2007 21:19:15

Having been the object of anyone in my family's wrath, in other words someone's target for abuse, I would not think twice these days of politely shooting someone who attempted to lay a hand on me. I revile those people who infer smacking children is a right, or any other such drivel. A child has rights like the rest of us...And one day in his or her life, she will resent the person who laid their wrath in him or her. It is banned in Australia, how about Bonnie Scotland now, like smoking in public places. Spare the child and save the agony.

396

,

10/01/2007 21:47:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
397

,

10/01/2007 21:48:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
398

Heilan laddie,

Inverness 10/01/2007 21:48:44

Graeme, that sound more like child abuse rather than being disciplined. I was smacked as a child for doing wrong. I had the belt at school for doing wrong and messing around. I got my arse kicked by a police man for doing something I should'nt be doing. It did not do me any harm. You need to be able to discipline people. Thats why the country is in such a mess with the yob and hoodie culture because no one has authority any more and cannot put anyone in their place when need be. It the goody two shoes do-gooders support such bans that is drivel.

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10/01/2007 21:50:22
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10/01/2007 21:51:57
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Miss H,

10/01/2007 21:53:08

Goordon 361 - it's actually quite logical. Recorded crime is just that - recorded crime. It doesn't tell you what the actual level necessarily is as it reflects the willingness of people to report crimes to the police as much as the actual incidence of crime. If the police are seen as corrupt or just not likely to give a damn then that will affect peoples willingness to report crimes.

As regards the whole smacking debate, I believe people should perhaps be a little less smug about this. Scotland has a serious problem with violent and abusive behaviour. Like most behaviour this is learned in the home. Kids who grow up being smacked about whenever their parents feel like it will repeat that behaviou themselves because they have learned that it is normal.

So it's not so much spare the rod and harm the child as lay off your kids and we might have a few less neds on our streets.

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Em,

Scotland 10/01/2007 22:05:44

423-

Nobody is saying kids should be smacked about whenever the parent feels like it, there is a huge difference between abusing your child and giving them a smack if they continue to misbehave after several warnings, when this form of disciplin is used correctly the parent will find that they will rarely have to use it again.

Everyone on th PC bandwagon always blow this out of all proportion.

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rab, glasgow,

10/01/2007 22:05:55

417. Graeme M /Smokin in public places, you spew,
like the kids can smoke in public parks and the adults canny smoke in pubs. So where does the adult go to chill out' and have a puff and a pint' then go home stress free/

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Salvation,

Ayr 10/01/2007 22:09:45

It's time for the UN and the do gooders to take a back seat. Discipline is the order of the day. We have to get back to the old values. I am 68 years of age and only this very day whilst taking a quite stroll along the prom at Ayr I was subject to verbal abuse by four youths in a car. This was at a point were they had to slow to negotiate a corner in the road. I asked them to stop and offered to take them all on at once but they scarpered. I was actually taking photographs at the time and although I didn't take any of them I kept my eye on the car as it went into the car park. Some time later I crossed back over the road and the car was wating there. The driver wound his window down and appolgised saying there had been a misunderstanding. It was only sometime later that I suspected that they may have thought that I had taken photographs of them.
At 1:30 p.m. I can only assume it was students who had not yet returned to college. I wonder what would have happened to me if I had given one of them a good hiding?.
Get the belt and the birch out and give them a damn good thrashing every time. Yer cannae wack it, it works a treat.

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Heilan laddie,

Inverness 10/01/2007 22:12:50

Until all this political correctness came about there were no neds on the street ot not as many. I dont think you are splitting the difference between abusing someone or discipling them. Discipline never done me any harm or anyone else I know and has probably made us better people for it.

Ok, scotland may have a problem with violent behaviour but you cant call that giving a child a little smack accross the bot.

If you are a violent person then that is another matter, I dont believe anyone has the right to smack their kids about just for the sake of it. Come on we are all grown ups and should know the difference between a simple little smack or abusing someone.

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jonathon,

edinburgh 10/01/2007 22:32:12

what amazes me is that the kids that commit the crimes and are the most anti social are the feral kids who have NO input from parents. It beggars belief that the parents who at least TRY to discipline their kids are demonised. This Kathleen Marshall is an opportunist loony who sees her fame and fortune through the PC ability to take a false moral position in a society that is unable to protect itself. She doesn't do 'good' work where needed, she does self serving work to pusue her own career.

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jonathon,

edinburgh 10/01/2007 22:35:22

419- bed time wee berty, school tomorrow!

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Pilrig,

Livingston 10/01/2007 22:44:29

#427 Heilan laddie you slaver a lot of p!sh. There was plenty of aggro with the teens a long time before the Lochgelly panacea was abolished.

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Alisha,

USA 10/01/2007 22:49:26

If a kid does something very bad, and you just tell them not to do it, chances are they will do it again just to spite you. Now, if you hit a child when they do something they're not supposed to they'll get the friggin idea. I believe in spanking a child for doing something wrong. But, when it is a child 3 or under, a soft smack on the butt or hand is fine.

That is the problem with all the neds walking around Edinburgh (and everywhere else in Scotland!) terrorizing people; they weren't properly disciplined as a child. I live in the South (america) and the kids here are most times nice. One person mentioned that a 15 or 16 year old handed him back his wallet after he'd dropped it without knowing. That is what will happen 90% of the time here. Someone once forgot their bag of items on the floor at a check out register and I picked it up, found the woman and gave it back to her.
That is the attitude that you will find here in the South. I can't say that it will happen up north or anywhere else, for last August I was in New Jersey walking through the airport and I was looking to the right and when I turned my head back around there was an 80 year old woman heading towards me with her luggage cart, I said "Oh excuse me!" Quickly moved my cart to the right out of the way and she said "Dont cut in front of me like that you little bitch!" See? In the South, that wouldnt have happened. Yankees walk around like they've got a corn cob up their arses and are rude when they first meet you, or if an accident happens that you couldnt have helped like in my case.

Now, if people were to discipline their children at a young age they will grow up being nice, decent people. You can't let a kid