The Friday Interview: Mapping out an attack on organised crime

GORDON Meldrum is a man on a mission. As director-general of the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency (SCDEA), his job is to protect communities in Scotland from the scourge of drug dealers, money launderers and other organised criminals.

It is a daunting task. As The Scotsman reported earlier this week, "dirty money", or assets derived from crime, represents a staggering 2 per cent of the UK's GDP, or £18 billion. Up to half of that is derived from illegal drug transactions. Meanwhile, the economic and social costs of serious organised crime are estimated at between £20 billion and £40 billion a year.

And his is a job made even harder by the shifting sands of the organised crime world and more porous borders that are allowing criminals from overseas into the country.

Mr Meldrum, 41, has been in the post for three months, having taken over from his predecessor, Graeme Pearson, who retired last year.

Last week, he spoke at the annual Scottish police drugs conference about the need for strong leadership to meet the new challenges posed by organised crime.

In a wide-ranging interview today, Mr Meldrum outlines his vision for the agency, explaining how he intends to build a comprehensive "map" of the networks of criminals and gangs who bring misery to Scotland's communities. And he sets out the main challenge faced by the SCDEA today: staying on top of a rapidly changing organised crime scene in Scotland.

Q & A: GORDON MELDRUM

You spoke recently about the changing face of organised crime in Scotland. How much, and in what way, has organised crime changed in recent years?

Ten or 12 years ago, I was running the National Intelligence Office in Scotland, the forerunner to the Serious Organised Crime Agency (Soca).

At that time, the organised crime groups in Scotland were primarily involved in the importation of drugs and, within that, heroin. They always went via a middle person, usually in Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham or London. They didn't go directly into Europe or anywhere else in the world.

Now, it's unusual for them to actually go through a middleman somewhere else in the UK. They invariably go directly into central Europe, South America, or frankly any other part of the globe.

They've also diversified. The commodity is no longer important. We don't have people who specialise in getting heroin from Afghanistan.

We have groups of individuals and networks who come together to maximise power and profits. If the profits are to be made in heroin or firearms, or people or alcohol, they're happy to deal in that commodity. They have become more entrepreneurial in nature.

How accurate is the stereotype of organised crime in Scotland, and indeed the UK, being run by a small number of élite Mr Bigs?

I'm not convinced we have a rigid, hierarchical system with, say, ten groups or families and nobody moves or breathes unless one of these Mr Bigs says it's OK to do so, and then you have a tier below that and a tier below that. I think it's much looser than that. We have a number of people – some of them are well publicised, some are not – who are involved in organised crime. They will come together loosely on certain elements of their business, and never meet on others.

What activities are organised criminals in Scotland mainly involved in?

Drugs across the spectrum. There are also elements of people trafficking and money laundering, not to launder money from drugs, but as a service in its own right. Trading firearms, alcohol and tobacco are still there.

Who are these people? Are they "homegrown" Scots, or do they originate from other countries?

We are talking about (Scottish nationals]. But as we look at migration and how that's affecting Scotland, in particular the influx from eastern Europe, the picture changes.

The vast majority of people from eastern Europe will work hard and be good for the economy. But – and I'm sure there will be a but – not necessarily all will be. That changes the dynamic of this. We need to make sure that we, as an organisation, have an ability to understand that and be geared up to see it coming.

I think there will be more of that in the future. As more people decide to reside in Scotland and the UK becomes more diverse, with groups settling in the UK… more people will move north because they see Scotland as an attractive place to live. What I'm not saying is if you're not white, male and Scottish and you come and reside here, then I think you're involved in organised crime. But I think that in any other community in the world, there will be a section involved in crime and, in some instances, organised crime.

You have begun a mapping exercise to build a bigger picture of organised crime. What do you hope that will achieve?

If we do this scientifically, if we take our time, I'm hoping it will expose a lot of almost (Donald] Rumsfeldian "known unknowns", if that makes sense. We know what we know just now – but what else exists out there? In many respects we don't know the answer to that.

What is your vision for the agency?

First and foremost, the agency is here to protect people. It's here to protect Scotland's communities from organised crime. To be able to do that, we need to understand what organised crime looks like in 2008. There are certain people we have a good insight into. We know what their activities are and we know, by and large, how they go about their business. We track those people and target those people – all based on intelligence, as you would expect.

That's the here and now, and the agency will continue to look at the top tier of organised criminals. We will continue to target those individuals who pose the greatest threat, risk and harm to Scotland's communities.

For the future, as I have mentioned, we need to understand better the true nature and extent of that organised crime. It would be arrogant to sit here and say that our knowledge of organised crime groups is perfect. I need to make sure we have the skills inside this agency to enable me to cope with that.

Do you think more can be done to encourage witnesses to help you put away organised criminals?

We will need to continue to enhance our ability to protect and support witnesses. It's one thing knowing who the bad guys are, but if we're successful and get them into the criminal justice process, there's witnesses we need to look after.

But the witnesses we do look after, we provide that support to them both prior to, during and after any trial, (and] I think we look after them very, very well.

However, does that give every witness out there the confidence to say, 'I'd like to tell you all there is to tell you about gangster A or gangster B'? I don't think it does.

I think there (are] people out there who could help us with our knowledge, but they won't have the confidence to approach us at this moment in time either on or off the record.

So how are you going to build that confidence?

There's no magic wand. We have to continually call for it. I think we've been very good in the past in saying to the people of Scotland that if they have information about crime, then phone Crimestoppers on the 0800 number.

Nobody should take it for granted that the SCDEA, or Soca, or Revenue and Customs, know all there is to know. If you are public-spirited and have a knowledge of organised crime, and you want to share that with us, please in the first instance contact Crimestoppers and tell your story. That will be referred to us.

What impact has the relatively new power to seize criminal assets had on the way crime bosses operate?

We know from the people who talk to us that organised criminals and crime groups sat up and paid attention when the Proceeds of Crime legislation was introduced in Scotland in 2002.

That is because if you are involved in organised crime, some of them see being caught, convicted and imprisoned as a tax, and they are prepared to pay it.

The bit they really don't like is when we remove the assets, what they've built up. They don't enjoy that whatsoever.

They are aware of the act. We know for a fact many of them have studied the act themselves and are fairly expert in their rights.

We need to do more to actually identify additional assets, because it's the part of our business that really hits organised crime.

Whether the assets are in Scotland, the rest of the UK, Europe or elsewhere, we will redouble our efforts and do everything we can to recover that. I would like to literally strip every asset that organised crime has to offer.

But how we plough the money back into communities is also critical. Part of me would like to take the cloak off how we do it. We should be more public about our successes, whether it's this vehicle or that home or this yacht.

We should publicise to our communities and, in particular, to young people that if you are involved in organised crime, if this is your fancy Mercedes or Range Rover, or that's your home in Florida, that will be captured and the proceeds from that will be poured back into Scotland.

Maybe we should put a sticker across a car or a house, literally saying "seized under the Proceeds of Crime Act", and invite (the press] in to take a photograph and stick it on the front page. I think that could make quite an impact.

I'm not naive. I know there's a frustration out there. People ask, "Why are the police not doing anything about this drug dealer, because everybody knows this drug dealer and nothing is happening?"

I'd like to flick the switch on that and give that community the confidence that we might not do it at the pace they want us to do it, but we are there working behind the scenes.

You were chosen as Scottish national co-ordinator for policing issues arising from the 2003 invasion of Iraq. How much community tension did you detect in that time?

We saw an initial rise in tension – breach of the peace, vandalism, that sort of thing. It was mainly targeted at shops owned by the Asian community, because they were visible.

Thankfully, much of it was lower-level, although I'm sure it was frightening to those involved. Spray-painting on shops, different things like that.

That peaked very much in the aftermath of the beginning of the military campaign. But it quickly levelled off. Thankfully – touch wood – in terms of impact and tension it very quickly diminished.

You are one of the few UK officers to have spent time working with the Leadership Development Institute of the FBI at their academy in Quantico, Virginia. What did you learn?

I spent some time alongside some fairly prominent military figures, like Norman Schwarzkopf and Colin Powell, discussing and debating leadership issues with them.

That was fascinating. It helped me to develop my own leadership style, how I view leadership, the type of leader I am. It had quite a significant impact on me.

Specifically, what did talking to Schwarzkopf and Powell teach you?

They made me realise what is fundamental about leadership – that it is only 50 per cent of the equation.

The other 50 per cent is followership. You can have the best vision in the world, you can be light years ahead of everyone else, but if you don't actually have an ability to turn around and communicate it to the people who work for you and with you, you end up just leading yourself.

It's one thing having the vision and strategy for the future. But you need to reach into the people who work with you, be able to touch people's hearts and minds, connect with them in a way that convinces them that's a good place to go, "I'm going to follow the boss".

There's a quote I sometimes use: "He who thinks he is leading but no-one is following is simply going for a walk."

I have a vision for this organisation, but I need to make sure I can communicate that in a way that captures people.

When you have a chance to get away from the job, do you head to the golf course like many of your colleagues?

I've always said I'm too young to play golf! I run, I go to the gym – and try and go three or four times a week.

I read a lot and I like to travel. I still have a lot of friends in the United States; I go there maybe two or three times a year.