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Prisons inquiry: Time to end the soft option



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Published Date: 22 May 2008
A TOP-LEVEL inquiry will tell the Scottish Government that community sentences need to be overhauled to cut crime and restore confidence in the justice system.
The biggest investigation into penal policy carried out in Scotland will report that community penalties need more "substance", amid widespread concern that they are too often a soft option.

In an exclusive interview with The Scotsman, Henry McLeish, the former first minister who is heading the inquiry, singled out public and judicial confidence in such sentences as an area desperately needing to be fixed. He said that until community orders were considered proper sentences, the judiciary might still consider sending certain offenders to jail to ensure they were suitably punished.

And he warned that massive public investment would be needed to rehabilitate the few thousand hardcore criminals committing the bulk of offences.

In a wide-ranging interview, Mr McLeish voiced alarm at the number of untried or remand prisoners in the country's jails – and the spiralling number of female inmates.

His concerns on community sentences come a day after The Scotsman reported that Borders sheriff Kevin Drummond condemned the early release of prisoners and branded his sentencing powers a "charade". He spoke out after jailing a man who had reoffended just weeks after being freed five months into a 16-month sentence.

The fears have been echoed by a senior council official in Edinburgh, who says scores of offenders every month wait weeks before their punishment begins.

"It's clear to me we have to work hard to build more credibility and confidence in alternatives to custody," said Mr McLeish. "One way we can do that is to treat someone who is given a community sentence in the same way as people who get a prison term.

"In New York, it doesn't matter whether you get a prison sentence or a community disposal. There is no delay in beginning your community service.

"We need to make community sentences sharper. If you get a prison sentence, you're immediately carted off. But if you get a community disposal, you might be hanging around eight, nine, or ten weeks later and nothing's happened. The public are asking 'what's going on?' when they see offenders free to commit more offences."

He added: "It's essential we look at ways to strengthen the court system to help sheriffs and judges, and create more substance to community disposals.

"It's important we not only retain the confidence of the bench, but that we build on that. You cannot build that confidence if you don't invest. Rehabilitation doesn't come cheap."

The Scotsman can reveal that in Edinburgh one in seven criminals subject to a "live" community service order has yet to do any work. Of 600 offenders on an order, 82 – 14 per cent – have yet to be given anything to do.

A former Edinburgh sheriff, Ian Simpson, QC, said many courts also had little faith in probation, another community sentence which aims to address issues such as drug and alcohol addiction that fuel crime.

"I was having lunch with a sheriff recently who said probation was a joke. Community sentences do not have the confidence of the judiciary. There's no doubt that, in marginal cases, the weakness of community sentences is influencing the decisions of sheriffs," he said.

He said that when he was a sheriff in Edinburgh two years ago "about half" of all cases requiring background social-work reports had to be adjourned because there were not enough staff to draft the documents.

Don Miller, assistant criminal justice manager at Edinburgh City Council, admitted a lack of resources and inefficient processes were a problem. "The national standard is that someone on a community service order must begin their placement within 21 days. But the reality is it could be weeks above that before we can find a place for them.

"The trouble is there is a shortage of places. That comes down to resources. We are constantly at full capacity. As soon as someone is off sick, delays build."

The Association of Directors of Social Work has carried out a national audit of community sentences, which has uncovered major discrepancies in the way probation and work orders are carried out. Sandy Riddell, its convener of criminal justice, said a shortage of drug and alcohol addiction services was hindering the ability of the probation service to reduce reoffending by tackling the causes of crime.

Mr McLeish said: "I was home affairs minister ten years ago, and I have been surprised, maybe shocked, to see the extent of the impact of drugs and alcohol on crime, and certainly in our prisons."

Kenny MacAskill, the Justice Secretary, said that an extra £9 million over the next four years was being invested to improve community sentences.

He said: "We are strengthening and revitalising alternatives to custody for less serious offenders. By making the range of community penalties available to the courts as robust as possible we can help to ensure they are used with confidence."

But Bill Aitken, MSP, the Tory justice spokesman and a former Glasgow District Court judge, said: "There is no confidence on the part of sheriffs and judges that the existing community service order is effective. And there is certainly no confidence on the part of the public that these sentences act as a deterrent and punishment to offenders.

"I'm a strong believer that community service is a good disposal – but only when it is robust, visible and measurable. Unfortunately, I feel the 'soft-touch Scotland' approach will again be seen as the answer."

Range of alternatives to prison at courts' disposal

THE SYSTEM


SHERIFFS and judges already have a wide range of community sentences available to punish offenders.

At the lower end of the scale lies the supervised attendance order (SAO). The previous Scottish administration introduced SAOs as an alternative to jail for those who default on fines. Instead, they must carry out a set number of hours of constructive work.

Community service orders are a direct alternative to prison and so can be handed out to serious and frequent offenders. The offender is required to carry out unpaid work of benefit to the community for between 80 and 300 hours.

Many offenders are also given a period of probation, which can last from six months to three years. This is often used to address issues in a criminal's life that fuel their offending, such as having to access anti-drug and alcohol services, or taking steps to gain "work-friendly" skills.

International search but answers may lie at home

THE WAY FORWARD


THE Bronx has now shed its reputation as New York's no-go area, and so was visited by Henry McLeish as part of the commission's research.

The commission also visited two other communities in New York – Midtown and Red Hook – which have successfully tackled the scourge of drug-dealing, property crime, violence and anti-social behaviour.

The Bronx Treatment Court was formed in 1999 and joined the growing number of courts in the United States which sentence criminal offenders to drug addiction treatment.

In Brooklyn, the award-winning Red Hook Community Court seeks to tackle the symptoms of urban malaise by mixing punishment with problem-solving and prevention.

The commission also went to Finland and Ireland to help inform its findings over ways to reduce crime and reoffending in Scotland.

But the way forward for Scotland's criminal justice system may have been uncovered much closer to home – in Falkirk. The commission was impressed with the way Falkirk deals with offenders whose crimes fall short of requiring a prison sentence.

The vast majority of criminals are processed through the local sheriff court on a Thursday. If the sheriff decides to hand down a probation or community service order, the offender will be taken from the dock to a meeting with social workers that afternoon.

Unpaid work will usually begin within seven days of the sentence being passed. This compares with a 21-day national guideline, but some other towns and cities are failing to achieve even this figure.

Sheriffs considering a custodial sentence must have a background report prepared by social workers.

Due to pressure on the system and red tape, these reports are often unavailable in many courts, so the case has to be adjourned. But in Falkirk, that process has been speeded up by the sheriff clerk immediately e-mailing requests for social inquiry reports directly to the council.

Those reports are then couriered directly to court, minimising the risk they will be late.

Cornton Vale still needed

THE WOMEN


THE Prisons Commission has considered the issue of women inmates. Henry McLeish highlights a dramatic 90 per cent increase in female inmates since he had ministerial responsibility for prisons a decade ago.

At that time, women in prison were in the spotlight due to a shocking spate of suicides at Cornton Vale, Scotland's only dedicated women's jail.

However, Mr McLeish firmly rejects the suggestion that Cornton Vale – which houses about 400 prisoners – should simply be emptied.

"We have looked at Cornton Vale and the role of women in prison. The degree of damage done by substance abuse is very significant.

"It's a sad situation that a lot of the women are there for their own protection, for example from abusive partners.

"But there are also a lot of serious criminals in Cornton Vale. Therefore, it doesn't help the argument to have a blanket approach."

Police success adds pressure

THE COURTS


SCOTLAND'S courts have been put under pressure due to improving police investigative work, according to Henry McLeish.

He said: "The prison population is increasing, but the clear-up rate by police (the percentage of crimes solved] is higher than it was.

"The number of people going to court is higher than it was, and the conviction rate is higher.

"That's a good thing. It's a commendation for the work the police are doing. But that is putting pressure on the court system."

Another pressure from the courts is the increasing number of social work reports.

A sheriff must order a background report into someone's personal circumstances if he or she is considering a jail term.

The report includes a recommendation from social workers as to what the appropriate punishment should be.

WHAT NEXT

THE Prisons Commission will present its report to the Scottish Government towards the end of next month.

It will contain a number of recommendations on a range of penal issues.

The report will also cover two specific areas the commission was tasked with examining.

They include open prisons, at the centre of controversy after an inmate, Robert Foye, absconded and raped a teenager.

The commission has also been asked to consider the future of controversial legislation – which has yet to be enacted – to end automatic, unconditional early release.

IN NUMBERS

7,516
Scotland's prison population last Friday

142
people per 100,000 population are in prison

0.15%
of the population are in jail

20%
increase in male prisoners over the last decade

90%
increase in female prisoners over the last decade

1,500
remand (untried) prisoners in Scotland

1 in 3
remand prisoners receive jail sentences

75%
of prisoners come from 25% of the country's council wards

64%
of prisoners will be re-convicted within two years.

£280m
to run Scotland's prisons every year

£2.25m
promised by the Scottish Government each year to improve community sentences

£30,000
The average cost of locking up a prisoner for a year

£442
The average cost of a supervised attendance order

19,761
community sentences imposed in 2006–07

11
overcrowded jails

360
prisoners tagged and liberated to ease overcrowding

66%
of inmates arrive in jail with alcohol problems

60%
of inmates arrive with drug problems

70%
of inmates arrive with mental health problems

1m
crimes committed in Scotand each year, approximately

The full article contains 1977 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 May 2008 12:37 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish prisons
 
1

,

22/05/2008 00:24:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Conan the Librarian™,

22/05/2008 00:28:40
1
Beat me to it.
3

Teofilio Cubillas,

22/05/2008 00:45:07
Just to add a statistic to the figures above - 100% of prisoners locked up in jail don't steal from , maim, rape or murder decent members of the public trying to live their lives peacefully and within the law.
4

'Smee',

Canada 22/05/2008 01:04:43
Justice is not justice any more. If an individual chooses to break the Law, he cannot claim lawabiding 'rights'!
Short sharp punishment would keep the jails emptier - yes, even 6 strokes across the back-side - applied immediately for crimes of violence (mugging) and No I am not talking of lashes - just 6 of the best with a strap!!
5

Booster,

22/05/2008 02:04:35
It truly is shocking that consecutive governments never tackle the issue of applying appropriately harsher punishments to career criminals and the like who show only contempt for the leniency they get time and time again.
We need sentences for violent offenders of all types to be radically stepped up. No prevarication on the matter.
Young thugs like Darren Cornelius should never be allowed to prosper just because of his age - he should have been locked up for years when he first attacked that young girl. His behaviour subsequently should also never have been tolerated. Instead of creating a crimewave he should have been in detention getting some proper discipline in an environment he wouldn't want to experience again.
6

Navvy,

22/05/2008 05:09:13
Why is it that elected politicians can not see what the rest of us see?

Scotland has lost its work ethic and its will to get on in life

I think that the way our society has become is why so many Scots grab the chance to get away to another country, for example to Asia where criminals are treated as - criminals while the rest of society gets on with making a (good) living
7

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 22/05/2008 05:45:03
Note that 60% prisoners arrive with alcohol probs, and 70% with psycho. probs.

Note the unrevealed statistic that 99% arrive having endured a disastrous childhood.

Note, therefore, that we (society) have enabled these prisoners to emerge. They were not born criminals, but have become them through OUR sins of either omission or commission, or both.

I do not oppose far tougher sentencing, but I do oppose our bad parenting. Good families produce good adults.

What was that about being tough on the CAUSES of crime?

We get the criminals we deserve.
8

Hamish Simpson,

The Grange 22/05/2008 06:10:29

Unfortunately there is always going to be crime which can be seen across the globe. Statistically there are always going to be degrees of good and bad. The only way to assist is to ship the working class abroad which is not particularly practical.
9

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 22/05/2008 06:36:35
The easy option is to ask why politicians seem to forget about crime when they arrive in government is quite easy to answer.

Its because they suddenly receive the info on how bad things are. As a nation with its own legal framework, we are given a paltry amount of pocketmoney by a foreign country that caused most of our problems in the first place. They deliberatel developed an underclass to keep the people unfocussed and to busy just trying to keep their families fed. The fundamental core of our culture was crushed through ethnic cleansing 40 years after the 1707 betrayal. The English were determined to dismantle the very fabric of our traditions and values. A beaten then kicked people had a lower level of self esteem. They had nothing to fall back on, and if they found something it was quickly taken away. The Scottish Nation are no different to the North American Indians who faced extinction under the hands of European Settlers who in most cases were refugees, forced to find a new life by their elitist political system. Have a good look at the Australian Aboriginal, the South American Indians etc and you will find that ALL of their people suffered from a complete collapse of their heritage through acts of violence and ethnic cleansing.

It is far easier to build a new society with a fresh canvass to create on, than it is to repair a decayed and broken one. The Aboriginal is the only person qualified to judge or repair the damage caused by violent acts commited on them. We Scottish Aboriginals need to completely rejuvinate our culture and society by changing things back to the Scottish Way. Patriotic self determined Scots are the only people qualified to repair our somewhat broken society by restoring self rule.

It will take a couple of generations to complete the restoration of Scottish Pride. Our Irish Cousins are getting there, and obviously have a head start on us, but it is never too late to take responsability for one future when given good advice and
10

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 22/05/2008 06:39:57
good advice and assistance by your own kind.
11

Ron Thomson,

calonge 22/05/2008 06:49:08
It must be time to think about bringing back the Death Penalty, why should the Public have to live a life of fear, old people afraid to go out in case they get mugged, areas where the public will not go because they do not feel safe, the Government is to soft on criminals.
Anybody committing a crime against the Royals gets dealt with and no messing, what is the difference between them and the general public nothing, i think the Law should be changed so that the Public can feel safe again.
I come from Edinburgh but i live in Spain and yes we have crime in Spain but the Spanish Courts do not mess about and it should be the same in the UK.
12

bring them on,

22/05/2008 06:50:36
Aye, the old hard sentence...
13

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 22/05/2008 06:52:41
#9 A better way?

Utter tosh! Scotland had criminals long before Union and will continue to have them for ever more after any 'independence'. Every independent nation has criminals. Your distortion of Scottish history shows either duplicity or plain ignorance of the actual facts. You do the nationalist cause no favours with such codswallop.
14

Ron Thomson,

calonge 22/05/2008 07:00:56
'Cold, pathetic coward' who killed and killed again gets 20 years

John McGeechan, minimum of 20 years, what a joke it should be the Death Sentence, he commits murder and the public have to pay to keep him alive much cheaper the exterminate him and hand out a message that no more easy sentences will be handed out. You do the crime and you pay for it big time.
15

Colac,

Brisbane 22/05/2008 07:20:35
Send these mongrels to Thailand for sentencing, they don't pussyfoot around!!
16

yockel,

22/05/2008 07:41:36
It's too easy just to say,bring back the death penalty. No, we should bring back the death penalty and the birch.
17

observer9,

Glasgow 22/05/2008 07:46:22
Thank goodness they've got a team of experts in to tell them what the public have been telling them for years.

A good idea might be to get a hold of some of the posters on items like this and bring them in to the consultation process, and or some people like me who have been on the receiving end of uber confident, arrogant, social work protected neds.


18

Ubi,

Edinburgh 22/05/2008 08:06:08
Time to admit surely that after 400 years of trying this and that, and dabbling here and there, they are clueless about crime and penal policy. Will that lead to a radical review of our society's approach to these issues? Or will they muddle through until the next election? You choose.
19

bring them on,

22/05/2008 08:08:56
Play Stations in the cells?

Get a grip.
20

bring them on,

22/05/2008 08:13:09
Get them to build the new forth road bridge on half-rations.

They'll think twice about voting for SNP after that.
21

bring them on,

22/05/2008 08:14:52
#15

Have you ever been there?

The wee dark cell, the endless curries.

Felt like I was back home again
22

thinking,

Scotland 22/05/2008 08:37:10
Criminals should be deprived of their freedom as a punishment but should be set to work to earn their keep (and any extras they want)
This would be a first time at working for many so would set a pattern of work and they can be taught skills so that they will be able to work once released.
This would also cut costs on the taxpayer as they should be charged a proper amount for their food, room etc.
23

bring them on,

22/05/2008 08:40:22
#22

Yes, skills.

Get them on the weaving looms 24/7.
24

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 22/05/2008 08:47:08
The continuing proliferation of extreme right wing views on these forums is disturbing. Welcome to modern Scotland.
25

Anglofile,

22/05/2008 08:51:39
One way forward would be to jail all the feckin' do-gooders as well.
26

bring them on,

22/05/2008 08:55:49
#24

Very good
27

bring them on,

22/05/2008 08:59:57
These guys think they are hard men till they go and do some time.

You can hear the screams of "can I no have two pillows and a fluffy downy" echoing along the cold prison corridors.
28

conservative,

Fife 22/05/2008 09:09:57
The problem really is that the politicians think only of how much things cost, not what it right. Claptrap about retraining offendersjust ignores the fact that most offenders reoffend because they find it an easy option with little deterrent.

At the risk of sounding old-fashioned, murder should mean life - ie the whole of one's natural life - in jail where you can do no more harm. A second offence of any kind should automatically mean the highest penalty available for the crime. Criminals aren't the victims here and jail asn't for retraining - it's for deterrence and punishment.


29

bring them on,

22/05/2008 09:13:04
More bar football tables would be a good start.

I remember when I was locked up in Malaysia (false charges), what kept me going was the recreation room.
30

Alan B,

22/05/2008 09:20:18
Couple of things.

Serious criminals like murders should get a life sentenses. And i mean life not the judicial lie that we call life at the moment. Punishment for serious crimes is far too low.

Probation should be max 10-15% of the sentence not the 2/3s we have it the moment. It comes across as politicians wanting to give the impression of sentenses being longer than they really are. To the extent no one has any faith left in sentensing.

Probabtion should also be earned. ie u do not get out early if u are commiting crimes inside or not demonstrated some sort of reabilitiation. Probabtion just seems almost automatic now. We are told people go into prison and then get on drugs. Anyone taking drugs inside prision should have their sentence lengthened. eg Additional 3 yrs. (with mandatory drug testing).

Yes try to avoid prison for petty offenders. But why is there so muc litter none of it is cleaned as part of the community sentensing.

The 2 main things government should concentrate on is drugs and organised crime.

The tabloids portray organised crime in scotland as a soap opera and the governments do not seem to deal with the issue. Life for anyone involved in organised crime.

As for drugs. Have drug rehab camps for drug addicts. People on get out when clean after a certain period. By taking drug addicts of the street u stop the demand, cut the financial gains, and cut associated crime.

Also why does it have to cost 30 grand per criminal in jail. i would have thought about 2,000 would be a more appropriate figure to work on.
31

Upbeat,

22/05/2008 09:27:32
Jail should be a place that no one ever wants to be sent to. The public perception now is that it is become a comfortable alternate way of life for persistant offenders, who will re offend simply to be sent back to be with their mates. Jails should be bare and uncomfortable, and uncompromising...Places for punishment where the regime attached to each individual is then modified after that initial phase to one of rehabilitation. ...no one should prefer to be inside, or desire to be sent back having experienced it just once...even for a couple of weeks.

Community sentences...even this article waffles about 'unpaid work in the community'. Does anyone - in the "community" really know what these offenders are MADE to do ? Is Community service hard, unpleasant, rigourous ? If the penalty aspect of a community sentence is that it is unpaid, but it remains the physical level of work that would be the the expectation of the average unqualified and useless petty offender, then where is the penalty ? . They lose a few hours of freetime a week...so what ?
32

bring them on,

22/05/2008 09:29:57
The Red Cross should get more parcels in
33

John1,

Stirling 22/05/2008 09:57:16
7 Rulesbutnotrulers: "..we (society) have enabled these prisoners to emerge. They were not born criminals, but have become them through OUR sins of either omission or commission, or both."

This is twaddle.
I did nothing to give thugs a bad upbringing so feel no responsibility for their actions. By all means try to unscramble their brains but don't blame me for their behaviour. And let's not forget the FIRST aim of the justice system should be the protectioin of the public, not the interests of the criminals. Keep them in custody, under control, until they can be shown to have inproved, and then keep them under observation if they are released into society.

8 Hamish Simpson
What has class got to do with it?


34

interstellarmince,

outer-space 22/05/2008 10:04:20
I see there's the usual simpleton idiotic posturing on this thread. People who have had sheltered lives and have no idea of how corrupt the police, law courts, lawyers, barristers, judges and especially sheriffs are. The death sentence is abused and that is why it was abolished in this country. i.e. The Guilford Four, Birmingham Six and Glasgow’s T.C. Campbell all innocent and the victims of a state fit-up. They would have been executed. A civilisation that kills its own people due to laziness and ineptitude is no civilisation at all. Incidentally, you don’t believe that, in the intervening years, all those felons in custody committed suicide by hanging, do you? As for the House of Saxe Coburg Gothe, they are very different and they run the ‘UK’ for their own purpose and needs.

Violent people need to be stopped and locked up but the police and crown don’t give a flying fcuk about this. The police, crown and their associates enforce the state upon you. That is their ‘raison d'être’. MI5 funds and protects known underworld criminals in Scotland and that’s not including the Labour Party. Hypocrisy on a grand scale.

The truth never surfaces in court, never. A court case is a ‘competition’ between Crown ‘agents’ and the defence. Look at the remand figures above, they are outrageous and it is well known that in Scotland the ‘remand’ system is used as unofficial punishment because the crown can’t prosecute due to insufficient evidence. Shocking! Nowhere else in Europe has this including England.
35

bring them on,

22/05/2008 10:23:44
#34

That's a good one Gordon.

Give me your evidence anyday. The forensic, the saw it from my windae and I know it was 3.34am cause I just put out the milk bottles, never liked him anyway, did you see the car he was driving. sshhh...

That's your good justice system in a shell.
36

Moder8,

EDINBURGH 22/05/2008 10:32:04
We are never going to stop crime in all its forms no matter what we do: short term prison, long term prison, execution, community service, none of these will have 100% results - except for execution in an individual case.
Our current system of imprisonment must be seen as a soft option to many repeat offenders because it does not deter them from further offending. This is probably because in many instances a term in prison is like a full board holiday to them. No worries about getting a bed or food, good company, drugs at a reasonable price if you need them, all sporting activities laid on, television, the list goes on.
Is there a solution? Probably not a single option but surely something has to be done to create some sort of deterrent to crime. This solution will not come from the middle and upper class pundits who have only an academic knowledge of what is required to deter a criminal from continuing to pursue a life of crime. In the governments eyes the only real crime is that of cheating the state of money ( TV licence, not attending court as a witness, not paying taxes etc) do that and you will get a sentence as great as a murderer. So perhaps we should be asking re-offenders what would stop them re-offending then act accordingly.
37

bring them on,

22/05/2008 10:41:52
#36

Felt you were wandering a bit there, mate.

OK, I'll no argue with the wee exection bit (if it painless), but you go too far with the other options.

Long walks and cuddly toys have worked well Sweden.
38

thinking,

Scotland 22/05/2008 11:13:11
I have just seen pictures of a new UK prison.
Some punishment!! It has all the luxuries most of us can't afford, at our expense. The feckless and lazy will be trying to get sent to prison not trying to avoid it
39

bring them on,

22/05/2008 11:16:52
Fat and lazy, fat and lazy....

If the Col was here he would tell you.

Slim, lean and fast of foot.
40

Copper,

Falkirk 22/05/2008 11:20:25

It does not help with the examples we set

This " would be " Upright and Serious newspaper quotes a report by Ex First Minister Henry Mcliesh

A man ho became EX when he was caught stealing £ 38,000
POUNDS

But for the fact he was a politician he should be in prison

His punishment ... loss of Fist Minister job
Still left

with his snought in the Holyrood trough
And the unbelievable appointment to CHAIR this enquiry

At least I suppose at last we have a SLAB member doing something they are qualified for !!

41

bring them on,

22/05/2008 11:28:34
Does anyway have any stats about the number of Rangers fans in jail (for serious crimes) compared with Celtic fans,?

Without seeing them, I know which way it will go.

42

Allan(handofgod137),

22/05/2008 11:32:59
#40 I agree, the only research thieving henry sould be doing on the prison system is as an inmate.
#7 The way forward is to tell the parasites who breed these scum that they will no longer get any help from the state if they choose to breed.
43

bring them on,

22/05/2008 11:41:56
#42

Are you a farmer?

Breeding?

What are you going on about.
44

bring them on,

22/05/2008 11:50:10
Rubin Cubes could be an alternative solution.
45

Teofilio Cubillas,

22/05/2008 12:06:22
#24 Robert Mason

I didn't realise that it was an extreme right wing view to ask our law makers to ensure that, where an individual has demonstrated a clear propensity towards extreme violence, that the safety of the public takes precedence over any 'right' that that individual has to walk the streets. 'Modern Scotland', as you put it, is actually suffering the effects of fifty years of left wing social policy that has left us as the sickest, most violent, welfare dependent, drug and alcohol abusing nation in Europe. If you don't believe me, take a drive round Glasgow or your own county of Lanarkshire to see what left wing social policy has done for the people there.

#34 Interstellarmince

You're well named.
46

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 22/05/2008 12:29:23
#33 John 1.

What are you doing to discourage the NEXT geberation of criminals (apart from not breeding any yourself, I hope)?

Unless you are actively engaged in prevention then you are guilty by default of neglecting your social duties as a citizen.

Babies don't become monsters without causes; these causes can be remedied or, much better, prevented.

Become a player, not a spectator; a producer of social good, not merely a consumer.

This applies to all of us, of course. I worked with delinquents for many years. Even helped a few!
47

Allan(handofgod137),

22/05/2008 12:44:16
#43 I'm on about the fact that the majority of these scum would have starved in infancy if it were not for the social security system.
48

Screw loose,

Falkirk 22/05/2008 12:50:31
When first appointed I feared another report like many other into custodial / non-custodial sentencing, prisons, prisoners and alternative disposals. My personal opinion of Henry McLeish aside his team appear to have produced a report which reflects an accurate position of the judicial system, but not a surprising one to those of us working within the system. We applaud the report and support many aspects of this report for they are simply correct.

The difficulty now though, is do we have real political will for change and improvement? For that Mr MacAskill you will need to convince and get the people working within the system on board and give confidence to the public that they will be protected from criminals and supported if victim to them.

A "Joined Up" justice system will cost you plenty so who will pay......the employees of it??

Be very careful we are watching..............
49

Royalty,

Zandvoort 22/05/2008 13:37:54
Ive said it before & I'll say it again.

Prison ships moored of the Scottish Coast (The Uists)
is the answer to cushy billets & soft options.

12 months on one of those vessels would be like 12 years in a normal prison.

Come on Scotland..get with the programme.
50

Kilted Hulk,

Lacey NW/USA 22/05/2008 15:37:01
I am trying to interest our system in the idea of sending our "lifers" to some third world country for incarceration. It would be cheaper than the way we keep our felons. Hey send murders and rapist to China, Viet Nam, or outer Mongolia for that matter. What do you think I love to get as many different opinions as possible. bevgeo1717@msn.com
51

The Ninja,

Bonnie Scotland 22/05/2008 15:49:52
"7. Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation
Note the unrevealed statistic that 99% arrive having endured a disastrous childhood."
So that makes it okay ?

"Note, therefore, that we (society) have enabled these prisoners to emerge."
By being too soft on them perhaps ?

"They were not born criminals, but have become them through OUR sins of either omission or commission, or both."
You feel free to shoulder the blame, my conscience is clear.

"I do not oppose far tougher sentencing, but I do oppose our bad parenting. Good families produce good adults."
That's not always the case, I would have thought a man of your 'intelligence' would have realised that.

"We get the criminals we deserve."
So tell me, what have I done to deserve having rapists, peado's, muggers, thiefs, wife beaters & all the oher assorted low life scum in my town ?
52

The Ninja,

22/05/2008 16:08:30
"34 I see there's the usual simpleton idiotic posturing on this thread."
Ahh jeez, another 1, we don't agree with you so must be idiotic.

"People who have had sheltered lives and have no idea of how corrupt the police, law courts, lawyers, barristers, judges and especially sheriffs are."
I think the Police do a difficult job under difficult circumstances & I think the judges are wayyyy off having their finger on the pulse, not sure that makes them corrupt. (Unless of course you meant SOME of them.)

" Incidentally, you don’t believe that, in the intervening years, all those felons in
custody committed suicide by hanging, do you? "
Yep, & here's another couple of shockers for you, Elvis IS dead & Diana's crash was an accident.

"Violent people need to be stopped and locked up but the police and crown don’t give a flying fcuk about this."
Do you honestly think that the police enjoy having these people running about the streets ?

"The truth never surfaces in court, never."
I am aware of at least 6 occasions where the truth did surface in court, & I know, I was there. (or do you mean never never apart from those times ?)

" it is well known that in Scotland the ‘remand’ system is used as unofficial punishment"
err, no, not quite.
53

Trade-wind,

USA 23/05/2008 00:53:10
interstellarmince #34
It has just been anounced here in the states, that TED
Kennedy the liberal killer of pregnant women/girl friends is suffering from brain cancer,the kind that kills fairly quickly. We will need another wee liberal to take his place because that will surely leave a huge void in the liberal lefts position. I think you would fit in nicely here. If we get a democrat for pres. you may even be able to release some of our criminals. Bill
the per?ert Clinton gave pardons to crooks so you would might feel at home in such surroundings. Come on down I'm sure this bunch would be glad to be shed of your kind in Scotland. They may have a chance at cleaning up the crime problem with you gone. Bad for us good for Scotland.
54

Mary Bell,

Central USA 23/05/2008 03:41:04
This international crime wave is a symptom of social disorder that is 'engineered' to weaken, subgigate and enslave the masses.

Prisons may seem like a solid solution, but this will simply encourage the root of the problem to spread.

In my little town, it has proven to be the wrong approach. Excellent schools, rewarding work, and mental health care are the better solutions. If big money is spent on prisons, there will be little or no money to cure the problem.

Laws should be basic like: no killing, lieing, stealing, hurting peoples bodies or their things...not petty, endless regulations.

Tacticus the Greek said: "The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government".

This article reminded me of this web site:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/
55

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 23/05/2008 04:20:03
If you commit the crime you do the time, "HARD TIME" like it used to be years ago,prisoners today have it made colour T.V soft bed,warm place,air condition, three meals a day even educate yourself for free while you are in there,why come out in to society and work for a living when you get it all for free.
"HARD LABOUR" ONE MEAL A DAY,NO T.V.NO BOOKS.
NO ACTIVITIES,NO SOFT BEDS PILLOWS BLANKETS,NONE OF THIS SHOULD BE OFFORED.
Good living people like myself pay taxes to keep these unlawful people in good living conditions,SORRY IT'S TIME TO STOP IT,But I'm affrade it's to late for this prisoners should have know right's none at all they gave that up when they got their sentences.
56

westview,

in front of bars 23/05/2008 16:11:04
Interesting statistic where it states that 75% of criminals in jail are from just 25% of the council wards in our country. Are these the same wards with a high proportion of segregated schools promoting religon and shouting out about how good their ethos is? If so then it is no wonder that the kids rebel against society when they throw their ethics out along with the superstitious mumbo jumbo they are being force fed at school.

 

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