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Salmond wants Westminster to 'dance to a Scottish jig' as he targets 20 seats



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Published Date: 21 April 2008
ALEX Salmond yesterday set the SNP the ambitious target of winning more than a third of Scotland's seats at the next general election, saying he wanted to make Westminster to "dance to a Scottish jig".
The First Minister believes the SNP could hold the balance of power at Westminster after the next election and he told his party to aim high and take 20 seats from both Labour and the Liberal Democrats.

Mr Salmond used a rousing speech to the SNP's spring conference in Edinburgh to stress his belief that the SNP could wield real influence in Westminster for the first time since 1979.

He said: "We are moving into a period where the balances of power can be fundamentally changed. Last year I charged the party to win 20 new seats in the new Scottish Parliament. Some said it couldn't be done. You did it; we are the government."

And he added: "Now I am charging the party to build a Scottish block of at least 20 MPs in the Westminster parliament, people ready, willing and able to defend our parliament and our people. If we can achieve that, then all the Westminster 'Noes' will suddenly becomes 'Yeses'. We can make Westminster dance to a Scottish jig."

Mr Salmond believes that there is likely to be a hung parliament following the next general election, with no party able to form an outright majority government.

In that scenario, an SNP block of 20 MPs – maybe even working with Plaid Cymru and possibly the Ulster Unionists to take the total to 30 or more – would have influence and would be able to extract policy commitments in return for keeping one of the bigger parties in power.

A spokesman for the First Minister stressed afterwards that the SNP was not looking for formal coalitions, but would be willing to trade support for policy commitments on an "issue by issue basis". The SNP has just six MPs at Westminster at the moment. It would need a swing of at least 14 or 15 per cent to take another 14 seats in 2010, which is when experts expect the next election to be called.

Angus Robertson, the SNP's chief election strategist, refused to name his target seats yesterday, but it is understood that Dundee West, Ochil and South Perthshire, Stirling, Argyll and Bute, and Edinburgh East are high on the SNP's most-wanted list.

But elections expert Professor John Curtice warned that Mr Salmond's 20-seat goal would be very hard to achieve.

He said: "The most recent poll which gave the SNP its best Westminster figures, by Market Research UK, put the SNP and Labour on even-stevens.

"But to get 20 seats, the SNP would need to be ahead, and Labour and the Liberal Democrats would need to be plummeting at the same time. It's a tall order."

Mr Salmond was cheered repeatedly by delegates in the small but packed hall at Heriot Watt University yesterday for his annual spring conference speech.

He stressed the achievements he said the SNP had delivered in its first year of government, from cutting the cost of prescriptions to abolishing tolls on the Forth and Tay bridges.

The First Minister defended his party's controversial local income tax plans, claiming it would be much fairer for more low-income Scots than the combination of the council tax and the Treasury's decision to cut the 10p tax rate.

He also answered Gordon Brown's argument that it was wrong to push for independence in an increasingly interdependent world.

Mr Salmond said: "The reality of the 21st century is that the processes of independence and interdependence are one and the same.

"As our world becomes ever more interconnected in terms of trade, international relations, the environment and security, the case for nations having a voice at global level becomes ever more compelling.

"It is by becoming independent that nations can maximise their influence in our interdependent world."

It was a bullish performance by a First Minister buoyed up by a year in government and ready to continue pounding opponents who have had trouble challenging the SNP in any meaningful way over the past 12 months.

It was a speech designed for the party activists, and the several hundred who came to Edinburgh clearly enjoyed it, giving Mr Salmond a tumultuous and sustained standing ovation after his 40-minute address.

Mr Salmond ended by warning the UK government not to bully the Scottish Government.

"The more that Westminster tries to lay down the law north of the Border in clearly devolved areas, to bully the Scottish Parliament, the greater the support there will be for independence and equality for Scotland," he said, to enthusiastic applause.

The SNP will seek to build on Mr Salmond's rhetoric by launching a major campaign offensive next month, even though there is not scheduled to be an election of any sort in Scotland before the 2009 European elections.

The Nationalists will send out nearly one million leaflets promoting the work of the Scottish Government and asking for feedback.

The aim is to build up the party's database ahead of the 2010 general election, allowing party strategists to target voters with as much precision and as much success as they did in the 2007 Scottish elections.

Pressure grows for commission to look at independence

WENDY Alexander is facing increasingly strident demands from inside the Labour movement for independence to be considered by the flagship commission that is reviewing the devolution settlement.

The Scottish Labour leader has championed the Scottish Constitutional Commission, and has been adamant it will not consider the possible merits of independence.

But now Steven Purcell, the Labour leader of Glasgow City Council, has admitted that his council will table submissions to both the commission and the rival "national conversation" on independence, set up by the Scottish Government.

It also emerged yesterday that the Public and Commercial Services Union will call this week at the Scottish Trades Union Congress in Inverness for the commission's remit to be widened to include independence.

The union's motion is particularly embarrassing for Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, who will address the conference later today and who has given his backing to the commission but is firmly opposed to it discussing independence.

Mr Purcell, who was on Ms Alexander's leadership campaign team, said it was "legitimate" to consider independence as part of a review of devolution. "Post-devolution Scotland will always have a debate about the parliament, about the future and, yes, it may possibly include independence," he said.

A Scottish Labour spokeswoman said: "The vast majority of Scots have constantly rejected independence, therefore the commission will focus on reviewing the settlement within a UK framework."


The full article contains 1130 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 20 April 2008 9:08 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish independence
 
1

,

21/04/2008 00:02:59
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2

,

21/04/2008 00:04:22
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3

ptdoug,

21/04/2008 00:08:17
Well done A.S. and the SNP Government for an impressive first year in Government.

As Bob Dylan said... The Times They Are A'Changin'...
4

Jackie Priest,

21/04/2008 00:11:53
This man is unstoppable.
5

,

21/04/2008 00:16:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
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6

Jackie Priest,

21/04/2008 00:27:27
#6

Ridicule is all we get from unionists these days.

Know why? Because you've lost the argument. You've got nowhere left to go, nothing else to say.

You're finished. Done. Gone.

It's the clearest sign so far that independence is now inevitable.
7

walter,

21/04/2008 00:35:29
It is a lot to ask, 14 the 20 Holyrood seats came from the Greens 5, Solidarity 6 and independents 3.
Only 6 seats came the others Labour 4 Lib/Dems 1 and Tories 1.
You never know but I don't think they will manage 14 seats from the Lib/Dems and Labour at Westminster.
8

Benedict Arnold,

Paris 21/04/2008 00:59:43
In the present fluid state of Scottish politics, the target of 20 Westminster seats set by Alex Salmond in his conference speech could conceivably turn out to be on the low side by the time of the next UK general election. He will no doubt have chosen that figure because that is his judgment of the matter.

At any rate, the language he has elected to use in connection with this target will cause no ripples in England. It will cause waves. The very idea of Scotland dictating to England as opposed to the usual arrangement should be enough to induce more English questioning of the present constitutional arrangements as well as a fair amount of apoplexy in the Home Counties. This would seem to be a desirable outcome in itself.

What has Scotland done to deserve such a first-rate leader?
9

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 21/04/2008 01:10:13
7 Walter

Your numbers reflect the total number of seats, constituency and regional. Alex is arguing for 20 constituency seats as there are no regional list seats at Westminster.

In 2007, the SNP elected 21 constituency seats up from 9 in 2003, the Tories elected 4 up from 3, the LibDems elected 11 down from 13 and Labour elected 37 down from 46.

In total, the SNP up 12, the Tories up 1, LibDems down 2 and Labour down 9

These were the results in the constituency seats.

Alex's goal of 20 constituency seats for the SNP is not a far fetched as you think. In fact, his projected may be low.
10

Senga Jean,

Scotland 21/04/2008 01:11:48
Well done cutty sark. Well done Alex Salmond. Scotland is getting better and better every day in every way.
11

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 21/04/2008 01:20:44
Don't ya just love snaphead poli sci perfessers like Curtice. We have them on our side too. 90% of the time they're dead wrong.
20 new seats sounds like a modest target. Go Alex go!!
12

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 21/04/2008 01:28:50
According to Electoral Calculus, if you took the actual popular voter acheived in May 2007 and apportioned the same vote into the Westminster calculation, the seats would be as follows.

Labour 33
SNP 14
LibDem 10
Tories 2

As SNP vote is higher and both Tory and LibDem lower in the last year, it is not inconceivable to see 20 seats. If Labour vote plummets, more than 20 is likely

Adding a mere three percent to SNP and taking 3 percent from Labour would drastically change the equation. It would result in this

Labour 22
SNP 25
LibDem 10
Tories 2

To acheive a greater result that Alex's goal would require a mere 3% swing from Labour to SNP from the actuals received in May 2007

No wonder Labour is in a panic.
13

Samoyed,

Costa del Menie 21/04/2008 02:10:34
It would not be strictly necessary. As soon as the Tory Party realize that giving Scotland its independence they will need 57 or 58 seats less to achieve mayority in Westmonster, it will be a matter of time (and a very short one).

They as a party will be better without us than with us, and I mean Scottish, not just Nationalists.

Think about it. After Doonhy's forecast it will be 22 less labs, 10 less lib/dems and 25 less nats in exchange of just two tories. It woud be much easier for them with a diminish total in the English Parliament. They will rule England like forever.
14

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

The Republic of Scotland 21/04/2008 03:16:02
The Union is over in all but name. Come the next election the Labour party will exisit in name only in Scotland. Under the leadership of Gordon Brown the party is disintegrating before our eyes.
I predict that the SNP will return over 40 MP's to Westminister, thus sealing the mandate for independance.
Oh what joy to be a scot in scotland.
15

Canada,

southampton 21/04/2008 04:13:40
The Pope adresses 200 nations at the UN. Every nation, third world country, banana republic is there, but Scotland is represented by a neighbour, not fit to sit with the big boys. Come on scotland, where's your pride?
16

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 21/04/2008 04:23:51
1
Angus Ogg,
2
---------------------------------------------
Dude .

Have u calmed down yet. Stress will do u in dude.

A Scottish Labour spokeswoman said: "The vast majority of Scots have constantly rejected independence, therefore the commission will focus on reviewing the settlement within a UK framework."

--------------------------------------------

If the above statement is true, and in the last election the majority of Scots voters DID NOT vote for SNP.

Then why all this rabble rousing "make Westminster dance to a Scottish jig". Sounds very premature like its make belief and may never happen.

As for the North Sea oil . The British Government will never let it go, and Scotland can do nothing about it whatever the outcome of independence or retaining the status quo.

Dudes get real , absolute independence for Scotland is wishful thinking. A dead duck, but a form of pseudo independence could work for the Scots under the rules of the EU .

All U are doing is trading Ur neighbor Westminster for the foreigner Brussels.

And Brussels is a giant bureaucracy where U tow the line or else.
Either the French or the Germans the two power brokers in the EU will dictate the YES and NO, to Ur requests, as a member.

I doubt if the Scots voters will buy into that dudes.

Happy Haggis Day

GC


17

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/04/2008 04:39:37
The target of 20 seats seems rather unambitious given the current running through Scottish politics.

The deafening silence of all three Unionist parties as the Treasury tries to short change Scotland has hurt them immeasurably.

They are all between a rock and a hard place. Any attempt to try an subvert SNP initiatives by Westminster will be viewed as an attack on Scotland. If they support SNP initiatives that bring in better programs than they have in England it will build more English resentment and cost that party English seats in the next election.

I think it maybe becoming increasingly aware for them that they are in a fight they can't win.

You can see it in the posts by Unionist supporters on this site, they don't even try to discuss issues anymore. They are on their last legs and they know it, all you get from them know is insults and sleen venting invective.

Union coming through, dead man walking.
18

Graeme,

Guangzhou 21/04/2008 05:02:23
# 20. I refer to your penultimate paragraph.

That’s because you windbags are in the minority and will remain there. The Scottish British majority has all but given up on your rants. You dreamers are blind so what’s the point in flogging a dead horse over and over again?


19

David MacVicar,

web 21/04/2008 05:31:14
a proud doonhamer

There is no basis that voters will vote in a GE in the same way as a Scottish election whereas there is evidence that voters vote differently and more towards the UK, London registered parties.

So its not a tall order to expect a 3% increase from the Scottish GE pattern of voting but it is a tall order to expect UK GE voting patterns that mirror the Scottish election. I don't think we should get ahead of ourselves here.

A number of factors need to be in play for the SNP to get such an outcome:
Labour in continued freefall - likely
Lib Dems in continued freefall - less likely
Tories looking certain to win - Likely but how will previous Labour voters react? They could be persuaded to prop up Labour as much as voting anything else.
Turnout: If Labour are doing very bad then turnout could be low - helping the SNP
Related stuff - low Labour finances - higher than average SNP funds. Motivated and numerous SNP canvassers compared to unmotivated and less numerous Labour ones.

2 very important areas imo will be:
How well the SNP are still doing in the SP.
New coverage - SNP news coverage in Scotland is likely to be far higher than before.

Even with all that, 20 seats is a difficult target.
My guess, somewhere in the middle between 12 and 20, so around 16.
20

Alan Reid,

NZ 21/04/2008 06:11:37
19 GalacticCannibal, What about East Timor? Did'nt Indonesia say that they would never give that up?
21

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 21/04/2008 06:21:23
Westminster already has a lot of Scots, from PM upwards. Some tune, some dance.
22

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 21/04/2008 06:26:02
20 seats? With Labour a complete shambles, this shows a real lack of ambition.
23

McX,

21/04/2008 06:42:19
A forty minute speech in Edinburgh and the Hootsman buys a photograph from PA, don't you employ photographers anymore, wasn't there a more unflattering one available? Jings the FM looks like a man impersonating a bumble bee about to take off.

"For the first time in our history we have not just a noble cause but a practical application – a record in government. Our positive and forward looking agenda for Scotland is about the people being in charge of their destiny, with the right to choose the nation's future. The SNP's referendum policy reflects and promotes the new politics. It is a progressive vision for a modern Scotland – a nation which governs itself wisely and fairly, and is also a good citizen of the world."
24

Mikey,

21/04/2008 07:00:08
I find it strange that supposed Scots are now complaining of a Scots party holding the balance of power in London. What the matter onanists, don't like democracy? Or do you only like it when an English party holds the BoP?

Like naughty children, the unionist onanists just don't know what they want!
25

Black & White Triumph,

greenhill road....soon 21/04/2008 07:01:30
#26 Excellent, mind if I borrow most of it, you did well in your exams by the erudition in your prose.

Scotland deserves independence as we can do it
26

McX,

21/04/2008 07:10:55
#28 B&W triumph...

It's the closing paragraph from Salmond's speech yesterday. Borrow away, buddie.
27

it has always been allan,

21/04/2008 07:38:44
I really wanted to know about John Prescott's bulima. must be a "good day to bury bad news"

Oops am I on the wrong page
28

danielrober,

21/04/2008 07:40:33
When people ask me about Alec.S i'm just going to have to be honest and say 'i think he's a growing extremist'. NOTHING. He has said and done NOTHING NEW. Jus another Northern British politican playing with peoples futures.

Party politics for povety, + in the case Alec.S a vast ego. Please do not throw another generation of young Scots on the scap heap for your games? Some people are still recovering from the 1980's.

Alec.S can you give the people no peace?
29

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/04/2008 07:44:16
#22 "Labour in continued freefall - likely
Lib Dems in continued freefall - less likely"

You think? Both north and south of the border, the Lib Dems are currently polling at HALF of what they were a year ago. If anything, and if such a thing is even believable, they're in even MORE of a shambles than the Red Tories, and they don't have the cushion of a huge block of thick Rangers supporters ingrained for decades into voting the way of their faithers and their faither's faithers. If Labour are sliding down a slippery slope, the Lib Dems are falling off a cliff.
30

Iain fae Elgin,

21/04/2008 07:44:50
Independant Scotland.

Bankrupt within 20 years.



Sad but very possible.

(very personal opinion backed up by no figures, so don't go throwing anything at your monitors...)
31

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 21/04/2008 07:49:24
What is it about independence?

It is not the panacea some numpties claim. There are a dozen small independent nations in trouble, from Iceland to Zimbabawe.

The SNP offers nothing that will keep us off the same skids.

Alex may be a good man, but he has some very weird supporters and has brought no significant ideas to the debate.

Babies and bath water come to mind.
32

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 21/04/2008 07:57:07
GalacticCannibal,Murrieta; . CA.....

Your argument is fallacious. You posit that the EU is an alternative to Westminster. Nonsense. We already ARE in the EU and it's Westminster that put us there in the first place. We would be removing an increasingly irrelevant tier of Government, ie the UK and replacing it with a Government closer to home and with powers to do what is necessary for this northern country of Britain rather than what is demanded by the more populated southern part of England.

Now, screw yer nut on, drop the dope and think for yourself man, not your usual: regurgitating nonsense you think is received wisdom.
33

conservative,

21/04/2008 07:58:09
es, roll on the next election when maybe we'll be rid of this wee nyaff and his destructive ideas. He's a great politician but a fool.
34

Richardinho,

21/04/2008 07:58:32
#33,34 Rather ignorant and pathetic remarks.
35

David MacVicar,

web 21/04/2008 07:59:44
Rev. S. Campbell

On reflection I think you are right. I was thinking about
Libdems compared to how they did in the SP election not how they did in the last GE.
I think they wont fall much further than their SP performance but I agree they have lost a lot of support since the GE and I dont see that recovering so I guess the LD have a lot to lose.
36

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News 21/04/2008 08:03:24
Most of Fife are rather hoping that the SNP take the Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath seat - certainly I'll be happy, and so will most of Westminster according to the latest news.

The longer that Gordon Brown is allowed to increase the UK payment deficit by his convoluted and ill thought-out squanderings, the longer it will take Scotland to claw back the payments currently being witheld.

It is time that Gordon Brown stopped playing the great world benefactor, and focused on matters closer to home.
37

,

21/04/2008 08:04:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

Richardinho,

21/04/2008 08:04:58
Salmond's strategy is a good one. Indeed even unionists should consider voting for the SNP as a Scottish block at Westminster could deliver serious concessions for Scotland.
39

Grahamski,

Falkirk 21/04/2008 08:12:37
Congratulations Mr Salmond, you have managed to encapsulate the wheedling and downright nasty side of nationalism in little more than a sentence. Make a democratically elected parliament dance to a minority party's view? An interesting and revealing insight into the cynical and opportunistic mindset of Mr Salmond, a man so far down the road to demagoguery I'm sure he's had his first fitting for a uniform.
The one upside is that the more confident the SNP become the more we will see their true colours. We will see the essentially nagative and bitter nature of their outlook, and their need to do our country down for their own political advantage.
40

jdships,

21/04/2008 08:13:20
The big problem if/when we get independance will be A S's ego.
Can he control it
Jury's out at presenet !
41

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 08:13:28
"..to defend our parliament and our people.."

Does He REALLY think we are under attack or is this just to rouse the gullible?
42

John S,

21/04/2008 08:14:53
#34 - There are a dozen small independent nations in trouble,from Iceland to Zimbabawe. (Note they are not members of the EU and have no oil ?)
That isn't bad because out of 195 countries who are members of the UN we have 81 who have a population less than 5.5 million.
In the EU - 11 of the 27 member countries have population of less than 5.5 million and in Europe 22 countries have a population of less than 5.5 million out of 47 countries.
Out of the 48 countries who have gained independence from Great Britain since WW2 none have asked to rejoin.
43

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/04/2008 08:15:55
#21

Thanks Graeme for making my point for me.
44

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 08:19:07
37. Really?

Where are the SNP's version of GERS? They should have been published months ago, why are the SG's accounts, OUR accounts, being hidden away?

Where is the evidence to back up Salmond's claims that Scotland will be one of the richest countries in the world if we were independent?

Where are the oil income figures that Salmond so heavily relies upon when he tells us we will all be rich if we became independent?

All we get from Salmond is rhetoric of how the 'big bad UK' is ripping us off....yet we see no evidence whatsoever to back it up.

It's just nationalism all over, isn't it. Wild claims with no evidence ever given!
45

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 21/04/2008 08:26:38
The union(small u) is a busted flush - finito.

As for comparing Scotland to ZIMBABWE...!!!
46

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/04/2008 08:28:25
#33,34,40

Thanks also for making my point at #20
47

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 08:29:37
47. Iceland's inflation is 10% and rising. It's interest rates are 13% and rising....Netherlands' tax take is 42% and climbing, inflation is rising fast but the government cannot control it with monetary measures as they are in the Euro....Belgium's debt is 160% of GDP....

(Out of those 48, how many have stronger economies than the UK?)
48

brownlie,

21/04/2008 08:29:50
42 Graham


Tremendous post.
"Making a democratically elected parliament dance to a minority party's view" - it is to be hoped that no-one from the nasty side point out that this is precisely what the Scottish Labour party (a minority party) is trying to do to the Scottish government (democratically elected) with a little help from their traditional allies the Tories and the Lib Dems. The name of the dance would appear to be a Commission/Review which neglects the democratically elected government's view. The rules that apply to the SNP obviously do not apply to us unionists.
49

Toast,

21/04/2008 08:33:58
I would have thought 30 seats was a much more realistic target,labour face a wipeout in Scotland,Brown is apparently getting a safe seat in England as his present one is anything but safe now.
50

brownlie,

21/04/2008 08:34:11
44 Highland

Good morning - your usual erudite post. I suppose Salmond might be thinking that the poorest in the land are under attack. Surely he must be aware that us unionists are the only ones the people of Scotland trust and look to for help when a budget targets the poor to benefit the rich.
51

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 21/04/2008 08:34:51
Re #48 : as I remember, the depoliticised version of GERS was promised for July this year.
52

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 08:38:22
55. "depoliticised version of GERS"?

Is that what they are calling it?

No spin there then.
53

Angoos,

Baku, Azerbaijan 21/04/2008 08:40:05
A Scottish Labour spokeswoman said: "The vast majority of Scots have constantly rejected independence, therefore the commission will focus on reviewing the settlement within a UK framework."

Have I missed some referendums whilst working overseas ?
54

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 08:47:36
58. Constant claims from the nats that 'small is beautiful' when there are many, many examples of small economies being vulnerable to world events.

Read 48 and provide answers.

(I only use one username, how many do you use again?)
55

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 21/04/2008 08:51:44
Re #56 : I don't know who "they" refers to, but the use of the word "depoliticised" was mine.
56

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 08:52:41
51

You really are a tool. You keep telling us how well the UK is doing globally and completely ignore reality.

2 trillion of personal debt.
First time buyers unable to get onto the housing ladder.
housing more expensive than anywhere in the world. More taxation than anywhere else in the world. Embroyeled in an International war on terrorism.
In fact when where we not embroyeled in a war somewhere??
Cars the most expensive in Europe if not the world.
Fuel costs most expensive in the world.
Even watching TV is more expensive in the UK than anywhere else.
Books more expensive in the UK than anywhere else in the world.
Utility bills more expensive in the UK than anywhere else in the world.

It isnt called rip off Britain for nothing.
57

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/04/2008 08:54:50
#51

"Out of those 48, how many have stronger economies than the UK?"

If you want to use current account deficit/surplus then Austria, Belguim, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Czech Republic, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Ireland are all better off.

If you want to use Budget Deficit as percentage on GDP then everybody in the EU except Hungary is doing better.
58

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/04/2008 08:59:32
#42 "a democratically elected parliament"

That's dumb even by your standards. The Westminster parliament is currently under 100% Labour control, with an absolute majority, despite the fact that a two-thirds majority of voters voted AGAINST them at the last UK election. "Democratic" my balls.

As the SNP have so ably demonstrated, government from a minority vote in a REAL democracy - not the anachronicstic sham in Westminster - depends on, and takes account of the wishes of, minority parties. So securing a block of MPs and using it to achieve your aims is the very heart and soul of democracy.

After all, Scottish MPs could never achieve a majority in the House Of Commons, so by your logic the needs and wants of Scotland could never and should never be addressed by Westminster. That you, a Scot, should be advocating such a position shows just what a cowardly embarrassment to our nation you are.
59

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/04/2008 09:02:35
#61 Don't forget the shoddiest and most expensive public transport in the world...
60

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 21/04/2008 09:06:35
#45 John S. and others.

Of the 80 or so UN members with Scottish size populations, at least 50 have severe economic problems. Our nearest neighbour for these purposes is Iceland which is in deep shengis, yet Iceland is energy rich and educated. Under independence Scots will need to get out the begging bowl. Alex will be OK as he has a home in London.

Independence is no guarantee of success. Try to find out SNP plans for us will you? Let's check them out begfoe we vote.

61

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/04/2008 09:08:27
#59 ALL economies are vulnerable to world events, you witless buffoon. Or hadn't you noticed the collapse of Bear Sterns and Northern Rock, two huge banks in those noticeably large and powerful countries the USA and UK? Size is absolutely no protection against the parasitic greed of international finance.
62

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:11:20
64

Oh I am sure the list could easily be added to.
63

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:16:36
If the SNP cant do it this time with everything that is going wrong with Labour then they never will.
64

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:20:00
65

But none of them have our assets do they??
And you cant compare an Independent Scotland with Iceland you can compare the Orkneys or the Shetlands with Iceland. You compare Norway Sweden Finland and Demmark with Scotland.
Now try again but this time keep it realistic.
65

subrosa,

21/04/2008 09:20:53
# 65

I agree independence is no guarantee of success. Is the status quo successful? In what way does it benefit Scotland?

I expect you will give the usual unionist answers but to be a nation who is 'tied' to a union which treats this said nation as inferior is bad. Nations need to look after their own affairs and not be tied to the political needs of their greater parts.
66

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:21:45
65

Begging bowl?? are we back to the p*sh of being unable to stand on our own feet again?? I thought even the Tories admitted that was a load of sh*te??
67

John S,

21/04/2008 09:23:20
#65 - But they do not have - Scotland’s Energy Reserves:-
Oil: 62.4% of the EU’s proven reserves
Gas: 12.5% of the EU’s proven reserves
Coal: 69% of UK reserves and 8.3% of EU
Wind: 25% of EU’s potential (36GW)
Wave: 10% of EU’s potential (14GW)
Tidal: 25% of EU’s potential (7.5GW)

68

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 09:24:44
#20 KH

#21 proves your point!
69

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 09:27:26
#25 I think he said "at least" 20 seats, which of course is something completely different.
70

Media1,sa,

21/04/2008 09:27:32
Well done to the SNP and Alex Salmond on a totally brilliant first year.
71

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 09:29:33
#27 Mikey

A very good point.
72

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 09:31:53
Salmond: "As our world becomes ever more interconnected in terms of trade, international relations, the environment and security - the case for nations having a voice at a global level becomes ever more compelling."

Which is why the SNP proposes we withdraw from our place on the UN Security Council, on G8, in the 'Big Four' of the EU, from the management of the IMF and the World Bank....and become a small voice among the massed ranks of the world's small countries.

Genius.
73

brownlie,

21/04/2008 09:32:14
74 John

That may well be true but we unionists will be unrelenting in our attempts to thwart the nats from using these energy resources for the benefit of Scotland.
74

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 09:36:34
74. "Wind: 25% of EU’s potential (36GW)
Wave: 10% of EU’s potential (14GW)
Tidal: 25% of EU’s potential (7.5GW)"

Where is this written? How can Scotland have 25% of the entire European Union's wind potential? Are we the only country that has wind?
75

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:36:35
79

Scotland doesnt have a place in the G8 nor the EU nor the IMF nor the world bank in fact we dont have a place anywhere not even in the UK. We are an ethnic minority at the service of another much larger nation.
76

Alan B,

21/04/2008 09:38:42
Highland Mighty

"Netherlands' tax take is 42% and climbing, inflation is rising fast but the government cannot control it with monetary measures as they are in the Euro"

Taking ur statement to its logical conclusion. U are stating that scotland should have its own currency so that interest rates can be set at a level appropriate to the scottish economy.

Over the last 30yrs we have seen interest rates set for the uk at levels damaging to the scottish economy. In fact is was one of the senior guys in the bank of england that said that unemployment in scotland was a price worth paying to control inflation in the south. The inappropriate monetary policy is one of the reasons for scotland poor level of economic growth.

If you actually analysis the interest rate levels best suited for the scottish economy u would see that the euro rates are much closer to our needs that those set for sterling.

As for the remark about tax take rising in the Netherlands have u been asleep during Browns time as chancellor.
77

Angus Ogg,

21/04/2008 09:39:07
#1 The Fake Angus Ogg,

How did you fake that?

Your ID theft is very good. The ID you have posted under is EXACTLY the same as my ID. I always thought you fakers had to have a slightly different spelling to copy someone elses ID?

You are a very bad boy.
78

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:43:13
84

Not if they work for the Scotsman.
79

Angus Ogg,

21/04/2008 09:43:22
#19 Ganaptic Cammembert,

Canaptic Dude, #1 post is a fake ID. Very good fake though.

Sorry Dude, but you have your Independence. Well your country does. Sounds like you need your Independence too, a grown man still sponging off his Mum's money and won't get a job.

Is it the Bates Motel that your Mum owns ?

Happy Hitchcock Day Dude.
80

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 09:43:27
The EU consumes 3,000,000GW of electricity a year, why are the nats touting the POTENTIAL of producing 57.5GW (a tiny 0.001%!) as anything relevant?

"Follow the SNP and we might possibly produce 0.001% of the EU's electricity needs and potentially perhaps be rich! Maybe! No promises though."
81

brownlie,

21/04/2008 09:43:31
42 Highland

Because of geography and the nature of the terrain Scotland are in a unique position to catch the wind which is not as difficult as Donovan tried to have us believe.
82

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 09:44:37
#34 Rules. Yours is a completely pointless post. Why air your lack of self-confidence for all to see?
83

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 09:44:42
83. "In fact is was one of the senior guys in the bank of england that said that unemployment in scotland was a price worth paying to control inflation in the south."

Who said that and when?
84

Alan B,

21/04/2008 09:45:52
#79 Highland Mighty

" SNP proposes we withdraw ... from the 'Big Four' of the EU"

The snp simply believe we are not well represented by being a member of the UK within the EU. Even if one was to accept that there could be a theoretic benefit to being part of the big 4, one would also have to accept that it has not worked. The uk has isolated itsef over the last 50yrs in its relationship with the ec/eu, and made big arguments out of things with little appeal to scotland. Quite simply Londons interests are put first, and if that means selling out scotland so be it.

Can u actually come up with any advantages we have gained from being part of the uk within the eu (rather than advantages that u feel should accrue). We are not in the euro, we opted out of the social chapter (which scotland did not want) then opted back in again losing alot of political capital fighting something that we gave up anyway, we are alienated, and we have sold out industries like fishing.
85

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 09:46:05
#37 Add #36 to your list
86

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 09:46:58
90. Good work. We will have them in their place, Morris dancing with bells and knotted hankies, before lunch!
87

Colin Wilson,

21/04/2008 09:47:12
Re #79 : "Which is why the SNP proposes we withdraw from our place on the UN Security Council, on G8..."

Scotland doesn't have a place in those things. The idea that we do is just part of the UK's constitutional fiction.
88

Grahamski,

Falkirk 21/04/2008 09:47:34
63
Well aren't you a piece of work? How impressive you are, muscular christianity with a twist of nationalism. Wonderful, I loved your hectoring, wheedling, lying post. I particlulary chuckled at your personal attacks, very nationlist but not very christian?
To conclude with a suggestion that I am cowardly because I don't share your enthusiasm for nationalist politics says it all really.
89

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 09:49:26
#39 Citylocal fife

Alister Darling's imminent climb-down on the 10p tax rate will hopefully accelerate Brown's demise
90

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:49:55
87

Thats 57.5GW a day you tit. And where are you getting your figures from??? electricy consumtion is seasonal ie more in winter less in summer somewhere in between in Autumn. So you can hardly quantify it can you???
91

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:51:03
95

Still better than being a multi personality troll though eh??
92

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 09:52:12
#42 Grahamster

Unfortunately, your argument lacks credibility when you look at the share of the vote achieved by NuLab in the GE and the SNP in May 2007. Salmond has more of a mandate than Brown.
93

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 09:54:11
95. Well said. All true Christians would be campiagning at this time in support of Labour's doubling the tax on the lowest earners!
94

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 09:56:01
91. The social chapter was an expensive political gimmick that would have meant extensive new red tape on top of existing commercial, trading and employment legislation.

The euro has wreaked havoc with the economies of the eurozone countries which they are even now only starting to recover from. Germany, the powerhouse of the euro economy is a shadow of itself with high government debt, high taxes and high unemployment.

Why do the nats claim that the euro would be better for Scotland when it certainly hasn't shown many benefits to existing members?

As for being one of the Big Four, it is these countries that set the policies of the EU from trade to employment to the environment to transport.....if new policies have a negative effect on the four, then it will not become law.

The advantages of this include that the UK is now the second strongest economy in the EU, the second highest GDP per capita in the G7, the favourite-by-far destination for inward investment......[insert my 4-post list on the success of the UK economy here].
95

brownlie,

21/04/2008 09:56:12