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Opposition parties 'likely to reject' SNP plans for independence vote

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Published Date: 04 March 2009
HOLYROOD is likely to put a block on SNP plans to hold an independence referendum in the wake of the economic crisis, it emerged today.
The issue will be put to MSPs tomorrow in a debate on the Scottish Government's record, with a Lib Dem amendment calling on the Nationalist administration to ditch its plans for an independence vote for the remainder of this parliamentary term.

Liberal Democrats argue the SNP should instead concentrate its efforts on working towards economic recovery.

Labour and the Tories have indicated they will support the move, enough to out vote the SNP administration at Holyrood.

Lib Dem chief whip Mike Rumbles said: "We have made it very clear that the Scottish Government should end its obsession with the constitution and focus on protecting jobs and boosting our economy."

And he added: "Our amendment will put an end to speculation about independence in this Parliament.

"MSPs will have a choice tomorrow. They can choose chatter about the constitution, or they can follow the Liberal Democrats and spend the next two years working hard to build an economic recovery."

Lib Dem backbencher John Farquhar Munro last week came out in support of a referendum to settle the issue – just days after party leader Tavish Scott ruled it out.

And Mr Rumbles himself last year criticised the then Lib Dem leader Nicol Stephen over his opposition to a referendum.

Mr Stephen had ruled out a coalition with the Nationalists in the wake of the 2007 election, stating plans for a referendum were a "fundamental barrier" to any deal.

But after Mr Stephen quit the leadership Mr Rumbles said he believed "the leadership took that position because we didn't have a policy on it".

He added: "The great thing about the Liberal Democrats is they're a very democratic party and I do believe that this is a decision that I want our members to be involved in."

The vote tomorrow will come on the back of a Labour Party debate on Scottish Government failures.

A Labour spokesman said: "We've been clear all along when it comes to a referendum.

"There's one draft Bill out there which has been rigged and we would vote against it."

The Scottish Government is currently undertaking a wide ranging consultation on the proposed independence Bill entitled the National Conversation.

The Tories point to the Government's recent climbdown on plans to introduce a local income tax – a key manifesto pledge.

"The SNP dropped its LIT plans because they lost a vote in Parliament," said chief whip David McLetchie.

"At the weekend Mike Russell said he would not drop the referendum Bill because he had not lost a vote in Parliament. That's about to change.

"It's time to drop the Bill and get on dealing with Labour's recession, rather than the SNP's obsession."

However SNP chief whip Brian Adam claimed the Lib Dems "now look utterly ridiculous".

He added: "Mike Rumbles said he wanted the party to decide their policy – a party in which we know many members favour a referendum, as do the vast majority of Lib Dem voters – yet in Parliament he follows his leader and drops his principles at the door."

Mr Adam said: "Michael Russell challenged opposition parties to allow a free vote – for a party with no position like the Lib Dems, and with John Farquhar Munro actually backing a referendum, that is the only way they can go."

And he argued: "The reality is that the more economic and financial powers Scotland has, the better able we will be to overcome the economic downturn.

"The combined opposition look ridiculous in the run-up to this debate. While they attack us over our fantastic record of policy delivery, they are also ganging up to try and stop us delivering on this manifesto commitment. They will look stupid in the debate if they pursue this two-faced approach – and deservedly so."

The full article contains 660 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Lianachan,

Highlands 04/03/2009 14:11:51
Astonishing. These parties are actually wanting to prevent people giving their views on something - how incredibly undemocratic.
2

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 04/03/2009 14:29:23
"MSPs will have a choice tomorrow. They can choose chatter about the constitution, or they can follow the Liberal Democrats and spend the next two years working hard to build an economic recovery."



Ah pi5hed masel at that bit.

Still, the voters (the Scottish People), will decide and not a pushbike economy party like the Glib Dums!!
3

Churchill W.,

04/03/2009 14:37:51
Cyber Thing # 4

"Scotland had the largest number of poor people in each of the last four decades, as well as the highest death rate of all 14 regions examined."

So what is the SNP doing about that?
Obsessing about independence, that will pull a lot of people out of poverty; yeah right!
4

Geoff,

sa 04/03/2009 14:38:01
Surprised there are so few comments on this article thus far. I personally support the idea of an independence Referendum although I can understand the sentiment that sees this as a lesser priority in the face of the worldwide economic crisis. It could be argued that ,as the Unionist Parties hold a big majority in the SP, then they are entitled to reject a referendum at this time. There are arguments against Government by Referendum in general although I think the Independence issue is a one off that will have to be tested at some stage.
Nat-Uni conflict apart-cherish your democracy. Here in SA we have just had a convicted fraudster-guilty of stealing millions-let out of Jail by an as yet unconvicted fraudster who looks set to be our next President!! God help us.
5

AJ Fife,

04/03/2009 14:47:08
Hi Geoff,

Looks like South African politics are even more colourful than what exists at Holyrood.

We had the same type of thing with Henry McLeish and wee wendy! Up to their neck in it, so they were.
6

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 14:47:17
Referendum = Waste of Money

The SNP has broken or dropped nearly every key election pledge so far so why should they be allowed to waste more time and money on an independence referendum?

I am sure all those voters they bribed with their populist manifesto (i.e. the students who were told their student debt would be scrapped, those who were told their council tax would be scrapped and replaced with local income tax, those wondering where the extra police officers are) will think twice about voting for them again.
7

,

04/03/2009 14:49:42
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8

Rob,

04/03/2009 14:49:55
I'm a Unionist I suppose - but there's no need to hold back on the referendum. Let's get on with it and put this diversion aside - the people are never going to vote for independence no matter how dishonestly the SNP make the case: happily, we will have a lasting benefit of our education system
9

Guy Wersh,

04/03/2009 15:01:46
Wow, the opposition must be getting really worried about the outcome of such a referendum.

Churchill:
"..independence, that will pull a lot of people out of poverty; yeah right!"
It certainly would have if we'd had it 20 yrs ago, even by the admission the report commissioned (and suppressed) by the Uk gov.
10

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/03/2009 15:03:31
#9, Rumpus (in his own head)

1. Trams - £500m hole in SB.

2. LIT - Unionist majority vote against.

3. ?????????????

4, 5, 6..............????????????????

2 policy pledge failures, due entirely to Unionist Alliance.

Results:
1. £500m wasted. Money that could have been spent on more worthwhile infrastructure projects.

2. The vast majority of hardworking individuals and families deprived of a tax cut.

Rumpus, you are a silly billy.
11

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 15:06:16
frank mcbride,lusitania do you post as Tris?
12

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 15:07:27
Frank mcbride,lusitania
BBC News 24 @ 16-00 this afternoon, Gordon Brown is addressing a joint session of congress as I advised you.

Remember that?

13

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/03/2009 15:12:03
#6, Churchill.

1. CT freeze.

2. Working towards free prescriptions.

3. Working towards free school meals.

4. Genuine free care for elderly.

5. Increase in social housing.

6. Cutting Small Business rates burden, allowing them to continue to function and continue to provide local jobs.

Just a small start, but all policies introduced in the face of Unionist Alliance opposition.

Yes, Churchill, the SNP Government is working to help raise people out of poverty.
14

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/03/2009 15:19:12
# 15, Rumpus (in his own head).

No, only as frank mcbride.

# 16, Rumpus.

Yes.

You know a man by the company he keeps!!!

Churchill - the Butcher of the Dardanelles. Glasgow 1919. Co-Author of Soviet Europe.

Thatcher - The Butcher of the Falklands (Malvinas).

Blair - The Butcher of Iraq.
15

Stan Butler,

04/03/2009 15:20:14


IF there were to be a referendum which returned a no vote, how long should it be until there is another referendum?

16

Libertarian!,

04/03/2009 15:20:27
What RIGHT have ANY political Party to determine when Scottish people should be allowed the basic democratic choice of what's good OR bad for their own citizens inside their own NATION?
Apparently, democracy ceases to exist when the border that seperates our Nation is reached.
One would think we are still living in the 14th century
and not the 21st.
When are our people going to enjoy the BASIC right to CHOOSE?
17

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/03/2009 15:21:24
Where has the Police story gone???????????

Has JP realised that misrepresentation is against the Media Code of Practice????????
18

Bejjy,

04/03/2009 15:21:52
#1 & #2

When the electorate in Scotland went to the polls in 2007 the SNP won only 47 of the 129 seats with the other 82 seats going to other parties mainly the Scottish Labour party. Given that much of the SNP's manifesto was mainly based on the concept of independence for Scotland they only received one third of the votes which suggests to me that two thirds of the Scottish electorate do not want independence. Thats what I call democracy. A minority Government trying to impose a policy that the majority of the electorate don't want is undemocratic.

19

Stan Butler,

04/03/2009 15:30:19
#18 frank mcbride

...........Fat N'Eck Salmond- the Butcher of Pakora.
20

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 15:35:11
Where is 20th Century Boy this afternoon?

Is he off on that ship again?

http://atlantisevents.com/?gclid=CITDqr7NiZkCFUaK3godNybllg
21

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/03/2009 15:36:04
# 23, Stan Butler.

A very insightful comment!!!

See how the SNP is supporting small local business!!!
22

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 15:36:56
24 Cyber Thing,04/03/2009 15:33:52

The unionist bloc will try and stop a referendum because they know that people in Scotland will vote for independence.
=======================================================

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

YEAH RIGHT!
23

Lianachan,

Highlands 04/03/2009 15:39:42
#22 Nonsense. It's a minority government who wants to let the people have a vote on whether they are for or against something. THAT is democratic, unlike the other parties who will seemingly do anything in their power to prevent people even voicing their opinions on the matter.
24

,

04/03/2009 15:40:30
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25

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 15:44:29
29 Lianachan,Highlands 04/03/2009 15:39:42
#22 Nonsense. It's a minority government who wants to let the people have a vote on whether they are for or against something.
=======================================================

Exactly.

So they should come back when they have a majority then they can schedule one when they want and waste the tax payers money.Something they are very good at.
26

Stan Butler,

04/03/2009 15:44:41

IF there were to be a referendum which returned a no vote, how long should it be until there is another referendum?
27

,

04/03/2009 15:46:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
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28

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/03/2009 15:47:02
#24, CT.

The Unionist Alliance think that, by tagging this AMENDMENT onto an unrelated motion, they will be absolved of the blame of preventing the people of Scotland from expressing their views.

They are wrong, and the end result will be painful, as the electorate will see it as an abuse of their Parliamentary majority.

People do not like underhand dealing.
29

Bejjy,

04/03/2009 15:47:06
#29

The electorate in Scotland had a democratic vote in 2007 when two thirds rejected independence. Please tell me, if a referendum was held now and there was a majority vote against independence how long would it be before the SNP was calling for another referendum?
30

,

04/03/2009 15:49:57
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31

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 04/03/2009 15:51:00
22 bejjy


33% voted labour in the last GE, so by your reconing
the 67% who didnt dont have a say.......
Yep unionist democracy at work.

Awa an bile yer heid!!
32

,

04/03/2009 15:51:52
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33

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/03/2009 15:52:17
''Opposition parties likely to reject plans for independence vote''.

The story in the Herald is almost exactly the same, word for word. Whether unionists like it or not, the biggest group of voters voted for a party who's raison d'etre is independence. If the opposition parties combine to block a referendum - and they can - I don't think they could really leave it at that. If they reject the independence referendum they are rejecting the SNP government.
34

Lianachan,

Highlands 04/03/2009 15:53:31
#35 More nonsense. That was a vote for the composition of the Scottish parliament, not an independence referendum.

Can you please explain why trying to prevent a referendum (about anything - it's the principle of the thing) is in any way democratic? #31 could have a stab at answering that, too.
35

Rob,

04/03/2009 15:55:36
#19. Stan Butler. Well, we all know what to expect: it "wasna fair" and "rigged" and "undemocratic" as well as "unclear" and "the turnout was too low" and too many English got to vote etc etc etc. So, the whole campaign could start the next day I would have thought.

They won't shut up that's for sure and the SNP formula of the bigoted politics of envy will continue - unless Alex decides he might have better luck at the race track and calls it a day. Just look whot they're lining up to promote the great cause - Sturgeon, Thicky Swinney (assisted by failed ex-banking greats, of course). Feel your kness trembling? Me neither.
36

,

04/03/2009 15:57:46
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37

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/03/2009 16:03:20
47 The problem is that the Lib/Lab/Tory alliance are bottle merchants. They have bottled out twice over the SNP's budget, and they may well bottle out of this one. But they will have created a situation which they will then need to deal with.
38

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:04:14
34 frank mcbride,lusitania

Switch on the TV now.

Gordon is just walking into Congress.

If you are quick you will catch his important speech
39

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:05:05
Rule Britannia.
40

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:06:09
He has made a great start.

The confidence is flowing through his veins.

Standing applause after 30 seconds, I kid you not.
41

Jingo,

Edinburgh 04/03/2009 16:07:55
The opposition parties block a vote on independence and then will accuse the Government of failing to deliver one of its election promises. They are so two faced!
42

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

04/03/2009 16:08:08
They're probably just being polite, Rufus. Has gordon Brown burst into tears yet? Don't worry, he will.
43

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

04/03/2009 16:08:51
Gordon is a moron.
44

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

04/03/2009 16:09:00
...and a crook.
45

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:09:17
Edward Kennedy has just been knighted.

What a performance

Sir Edward Kennedy!
46

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

04/03/2009 16:09:25
Hat trick there from Ritchie.
47

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

04/03/2009 16:09:52
Sir Edward of Chappaquidick?
48

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:10:35
56 Andy Ritchie's

Switch your TV on and watch Andy.

Even better, if you have a blueray recorder get it copied so you can watch it again and again on a giant plasma.

:-)
49

,

04/03/2009 16:10:56
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50

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

04/03/2009 16:11:05
Performance is the right word, Rufus. Brown just puts on an act, like Blair before him. Couple of old queens, hammy actors the pair of them.
51

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/03/2009 16:11:26
Rufus are you drunk dear ? It's a bit early.
52

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:12:14
Chappaquidick??

Its an easy word to spell, but you managed an epic fail.
53

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:12:59
Observer, you beaten up anyone in the ladies toilets recently (again)?
54

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 04/03/2009 16:13:32
32


We wont need one. The SNP at the 2011 election will have a working majority and all thanks to the unionists.
55

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

04/03/2009 16:14:07
Been a long time since I spelt it, Rufus! Anyway, Maybe Sir Ted of Kopechne? Or however you think that should be spelt.
56

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:15:09
66 Hen Mc Stoorie,Port William 04/03/2009 16:13:32
32
We wont need one. The SNP at the 2011 election will have a working majority and all thanks to the unionists.
=====================================================

Hen, thats the solution.

If they do then fair play to them and then they can have the referendum when they want.

So what is everybody greetin' about? It is only 1 year later after all.
57

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:16:25
67 Andy Ritchie's left boot,04/03

I was impressed you got it so close.

If that had been me that did it, Bully Wee Alba (my shadow) would have been making a post 30 seconds later pointing out my mistake.
58

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/03/2009 16:16:56
#50, Rumpus (in his own head)

When did Mr Brown become an RC priest???

All that standing up/sitting down is a bit stylised, is it not???

Is he making a play to be the 1st Non-American President of the USA?
59

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

04/03/2009 16:16:58
OK, Chappaquiddick. I removed one d from the syllable because the quid has plummeted in value by at least 20% due to the incompetence of Gordon Brown, so changing from quidd to quid seems about right.

Your move, punk.
60

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:17:11
Standing Ovation number 2.

What an orator.
61

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:18:17
70 frank mcbride,lusitania

Better that than a rushed photo in a corridor with Hillary Clinton.
62

Bejjy,

04/03/2009 16:19:08
#43

Governments and Parliaments are elected by the democratic vote of the electorate to do exactly that, govern. What would be the point of having a Government and Parliament if every contentious issue whether it be independence, adopting the euro currency, immigration, law and order,etc., was put to a referendum. I no longer live in Scotland or indeed the UK but like most countries my country of residence has never held a referendum on anything leaving it to the Government and Parliament to make decisions affecting the country. The British, and especially the Scots, seem to be obsessed with referendums. You still haven't answered my question, if a referendum was held and independence rejected how long would it be before the SNP were calling for another referendum?, it would be never ending. As some previous posters have commented, why not wait until the next Scottish elections to see what the composition of the Scottish parliament will be before spending tax payers money unnecessarily on an expensive referendum.
63

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:19:16
FTSE 100 now up 4%.

Gordon is saving us all again.

64

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/03/2009 16:19:29
Well said Rab.
65

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

04/03/2009 16:19:30
FFS Rufus, you're easily impressed. Mind you, I suppose he DOES sign your pay cheques...
66

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

04/03/2009 16:20:15
"Gordon" and "saving". Now there's 2 words you don't often see in the same sentence.
67

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:20:39
Standing Ovation Number 3.

Incredible.
68

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:21:22
78 Andy Ritchie's left boot,04/03/2009 16:19:30
FFS Rufus, you're easily impressed. Mind you, I suppose he DOES sign your pay cheques...
============================================

SPOT ON.

How did you guess?
69

Geoff,

sa 04/03/2009 16:22:33
AJ Fife-Hi AJ-nice to hear from you. Yes,no country has a monopoly on shady stuff but I think that flaws notwithstanding,your checks and balances are in much beter shape. We have a Provincial Police Chief up for drunk driving, a National Police commissioner investigated for corruption not to mention the head of the ANC,our next president up for fraud!. Your guys(and dolls) are amaateurs.
70

The Strategist,

04/03/2009 16:23:38
The contempt that the LibDems, Labour and the Tories hold for the Scottish people beggars belief. Their determination to put party above country is astonishing.
71

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/03/2009 16:24:16
8 May 2008
Newsnight Scotland

GORDON BREWER: "But the point is, whenever the SNP bring forward a bill, you'll have to vote for it."

IAIN GRAY: "We've said - Wendy Alexander has made clear - that we won't stand in the way of the people having a say."

Couldn't be clearer.
72

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:24:53
frank mcbride,lusitania

I am still awaiting my apology.
73

Beachcomber,

Edinburgh 04/03/2009 16:26:21
Me thinks the Unionists doth protest to loudly..
Nothing to fear have they?

74

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 04/03/2009 16:26:34
The Unionist parties are a joke and treat the electorate with contempt. However this should be a time for the SNP to step down and call an election if this is voted for.
They could, as said before, install Mr Numpty Gray , however Aunty Annabelles credibility would then be zero as she has stated forceibly that she would never do that. The fact there will be a GE soon wouldn't look very good for the Torys to help install Gray the trougher.

51 RufusT-Firefly

oooooh im Scottish and British - Gives one the dry boak
something for you below, Nursey, Nursey

Scottish - Scottish
English - English/British
Scottish Unionist - Loathed by both of the above
75

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:28:54
Westfield Bairns,Falkirk

You repeat that every day.

It was boring the first time, and it has not improved with age.

Standing ovation number 4
76

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/03/2009 16:29:03
88 I would prefer that the opposition called a vote of confidence myself, rather than the SNP resign. But that would require them (the opposition) to behave ethically, so it's unlikely to happen.
77

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:29:10
Standing ovation number 5

Go Gordon!
78

,

04/03/2009 16:30:57
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79

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:31:27
It is all going to happen at the G20 Summit in London in April by the sounds of things.

I wonder where Salmond will be then?

Probably singing an embarrassing duet with Sandi Thom.
80

Stan Butler,

04/03/2009 16:31:39

If the SNP don't have enough MSPs to get a referendum bill through Holyrood surely that means they don't have a mandate to hold a referendum?
81

,

04/03/2009 16:32:36
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82

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:33:29
Billiam Wallace,04/03/2009 16:30:57

That was a long post.

You know what they say?

If you can't be interesting, be brief.
83

Stan Butler,

04/03/2009 16:34:51
#92 William Billy

If a majority of the Scottish people wanted a referendum then the SNP would have no trouble getting approval from Holyrood to hold a referendum, because they would have a majority.
84

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/03/2009 16:35:51
#94 "If the SNP don't have enough MSPs to get a referendum bill through Holyrood surely that means they don't have a mandate to hold a referendum?"

That would be true if a general election and a referendum were the same thing. Incoveniently for you, they're not.

8 May 2008
Newsnight Scotland

GORDON BREWER: "But the point is, whenever the SNP bring forward a [referendum] bill, you'll have to vote for it."

IAIN GRAY: "We've said - Wendy Alexander has made clear - that we won't stand in the way of the people having a say."
85

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:36:31
Hey Billiam.

I have 3 words for you..............Alba Ghu Brath

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
86

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 16:37:24
#97 You should know Dufus, you are never interesting, always pathetic.

Alba GU Brath

Sorry for the mis-spell, typo.
87

McNic,

St Simons Town, Ayrshire 04/03/2009 16:37:26
In fact I will make a point of upsetting as many Onionists as I possibly can for the rest of my subservient days.
SAOR ALBA.
88

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:38:10
Great quote from Gordon there...........

"When the strong help the weak, it makes us all stronger"

Rab the Ranter just helped Billiam there.
89

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 16:38:27
Hey Dufus, Some words for you, "No more boom and bust". Just bust I suppose.
Saor Alba
90

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:39:15
If Scotland was independent, I wonder if we would get into the G5000?
91

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/03/2009 16:40:05
#106 Wow, you really do hate Scotland, don't you?
92

,

04/03/2009 16:40:32
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93

Arbroath1320,

04/03/2009 16:40:36
If the unionist bloc puts down the chance for the People of Scotland to vote on independence it is purely out of fear that the People will vote 'Yes'.
If the unionists, including Rufus Tw@t Firefly, honestly think a 'No' vote will be the result, then why don't they let the SNP get on with the refferendum and get this argument over with. Then they will have the chance to laugh as Rufus Tw@t does above at #28.
Sorry, Wufus, until you have the guts to have a vote, don't think to decide that you know the result.
94

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:40:54
Hey Billiam, did you get "Saor Alba" right?

Its a bit complex for you.
95

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:42:05
Gordon Brown is now signing autographs now for all members of congress.

What a speech.

I wonder if Salmond signed any autographs when he was in the states last week.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
96

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:43:21
109 Arbroath1320,04

Get a majority then get a referendum.

Its not too hard to comprehend, even for a dimwit like you that is clearly living in the past.
97

McNic,

A (nearly dry) Symigton 04/03/2009 16:43:28
Rab-Its actually a very nice wee village.
But i must agree about N.C
98

,

04/03/2009 16:43:35
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99

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:44:21
108 ex labour for life,Alba 04/03/2009 16:40:32
I know plenty of folk who are turning away from labour.
======================================================

How many?

(imaginary friends don't get a vote remember)
100

,

04/03/2009 16:45:08
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101

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:46:37
114 Billiam Wallace,

Resorting to swearing and issuing insults is all you have.

(Apart from a hilarious grasp of Gaelic)

Alba Ghu Brath

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
102

Sgian Dubh,

04/03/2009 16:47:21
Hey Dufus,

You hate the SNP and are always up for a good gloat at their and Scotland's expense.
Why don't you put your neck on the line and support an independence refferendum? Just think, if it was a resounding 'No' you would have a great day on these threads, reckon you'd wet your pants. BUT no. You don't want a vote (which after all is the democratic way of doing things) because you and the other unionist apologists are scared of a 'Yes' vote.
103

Stan Butler,

04/03/2009 16:47:57

If the gnats are so keen on having a referendum why wait so long?

If it's such a good idea it should have been the first thing the gnat administration dealt with.

Jeez, think about it.

If they'd held a referendum straight away and it was a no vote, they could have held at least one more before the next election.
104

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:49:40
119 Sgian Dubh,04/03

A referendum is a waste of time and money.

Let the SNP fund it out of their own accounts.
105

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04/03/2009 16:49:59
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,

04/03/2009 16:51:25
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107

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:53:09
Dear oh Dear.

Billiam as well as swearing is now being racist.

Shameful.
108

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:53:41
123 ex labour for life,Alba 04

Try that again in English.
109

Sgian Dubh,

04/03/2009 16:54:50
#121

How do you know it's a waste of time and money? Do you know the result?



No. You don't. So, until there is a referendum, don't assume you know the result. You know what 'assumptions' make, don't you?
110

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04/03/2009 16:55:12
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111

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:56:39
126 Sgian Dubh,04/03/2009 16:54:50
#121
How do you know it's a waste of time and money? Do you know the result?
=============================================

A fair point.

In my opinion there is a high chance it will be a waste of money.

Why not let the SNP fund it?

Sean Connery, Tom Farmer etc would help them out I am sure.
112

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 16:56:44
#120 Spam the mam. It's obvious that they didn't hold a referendum straight away as the majority ofthe populace were still under the influence of all the b*llsh*t propaganda forced on them by the unionist for the past 300 years. They are only now starting to waken to the realisation of their plight in this self-destructing union.

P.S. Wufus, posting insults to the likes of you is sometimes necessary as it is the only thing your meagre cerebellum can cope with.

If you don't like my Gaelic, how about
FREEDOM!
113

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 16:57:12
127 ex labour for life,04/03/

HA!

I knew you would say that.

Splendid.
114

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 16:58:57
#123 Ex Labour for life: Re Bendy, sadly that's all she had. She makes Wufus look almost half intelligent.

FREEDOM!
115

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 17:00:50
I wonder what Salmond was doing this afternoon, whilst Gordon Brown was getting 17 standing ovations.

Yes 17 standing ovations.

In fact, footage is just in................

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/98/250433749_36302e5c64.jpg?v=0
116

brownlie,

04/03/2009 17:02:01
28 Rufus

Rufus, do I detect a hint of hysteria in your laughter? Hint of desperation, perhaps?

I understand the the bold Fred was helping Alistair with his sums. That's the pension assured on a quid pro quo basis - in this case millions of quids.
117

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 17:02:21
Hey Billiam, you are wasting your time on here.

You should be watching BBC Alba without subtitles.

Or BBC ABLA as you probably call it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
118

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 17:03:17
#124 No Wufus, what is shameful is being led by a lying bunch of pirate trough snufflers who, at the behest of a queen whose lineage is largely German, will do anything to retain the union. What is shameful is that whinging, lickspittle, grovelling, wormtongues like you come on these forums and try, miserably, to defend the indefensible, (and generally fail).
Where you succeed admirably is in your constant recruiting of new voters for the independence cause. Thank you for that.

FREEDOM!
119

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 17:03:19
Good evening Brownlie.

Bring some sense to these boards.

All your compatriots can do is dish out insults and foul language.
120

Sgian Dubh,

04/03/2009 17:03:32
128

It is therefore not up to you to decide who funds the referendum. The referendum result would affect the whole of Scotland therefore should be funded by the Scottish Government.

Far cheaper than an Olympic stadium in London, or a Nuclear Power plant anywhere in Scotland, or a useless pair of Aircraft Carriers.
121

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/03/2009 17:04:42
Regardless of the outcome of this tagged-on amendment, a Referendum Bill will come before Parliament.

I, for one, will be very interested in the outcome of that vote; a vote, specifically, on a Referendum. Plain, straight forward and without obfuscation.

Will the Unionist Alliance try to whip that vote?
122

brownlie,

04/03/2009 17:04:56
111 Rufus

Are you sure it wasn't cheques he was signing?
123

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 17:06:03
138 Sgian Dubh,04/03/2009 17:03:32
It is therefore not up to you to decide who funds the referendum. The referendum result would affect the whole of Scotland therefore should be funded by the Scottish Government.
=================================================

That is a fair point as well.

You and Brownlie are like a breath of fresh air on here.

So................get a majority at the next election and then have a referendum.

No majority and no cross party support then no referendum.

Simple.
124

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04/03/2009 17:06:13
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125

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 17:06:32
140 brownlie,04/03/2009 17:04:56
111 Rufus

Are you sure it wasn't cheques he was signing?
====================================

HAHA, might well have been.
126

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 17:06:40
#135 Wufus: "Or BBC ABLA as you probably call it."

Why would I call it that? Are you dyslexic as well as pathetic? Why are you laughing when your great leader has led his Great Britain to the brink of destruction?

You really need to either reduce your substance abuse or increase your medication, whichever will stabilise your tenuous grip on reality.

FREEDOM!
127

Sgian Dubh,

04/03/2009 17:06:40
133
'I wonder what Salmond was doing this afternoon, whilst Gordon Brown was getting 17 standing ovations.

Yes 17 standing ovations.

In fact, footage is just in................'

You really put a sickly slant on the term 'Brown nosing'!!!

128

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 04/03/2009 17:06:54
Rufus



The Calman commission is a waste of money.

Unfortunately I have to pay for that as well.

The difference being I will have a say in the referendum.

That is democracy.
129

Nevsky;,

Moscow 04/03/2009 17:08:11
Where has Wendy Alexander gone?

Where have all the unionists gone who were foaming at the mouth for a referendum?

Rufus...you explicitly backed the 'bring it on' line and now what...you don't support it?

If unionists were confident then they would have the vote tomorrow...they are terrified of the prospect...only 2 points in it!





130

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 04/03/2009 17:09:35
131 Rufarse
I'm just surprised you can type after all the self abuse in front of the telly watching the loathed Broon. Have to hand it to him blaming the US one minute, E*se licking the next

The vote tommorrow only serves to show how undemocratic the other parties are, however the REFERENDUM BILL WILL STILL BE INTRODUCED AS PER MANIFESTO just before the next Scottish Election, see how the Unionist parties get on if they vote it down then
131

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/03/2009 17:10:49
Hang on, I thought the economic disaster was all the Americans' fault, not our own dear leader?

In that case, why is being feverishly applauded by them a good thing?

Brown: popular with idiots.
132

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 17:11:47
Wufus Quote "So................get a majority at the next election and then have a referendum."

Please call your good friend Gudrun Strangely-Brown and ask him to call an election ASAP as the populace of his Great Britain have no confidence in him or his bungling government and he has no mandate to govern.

Coming from a nice wee supporter like you, (sounds like a jock-strap), I'm sure he would comply and put him out of our misery.

FREEDOM!
133

Eve,

Scotland 04/03/2009 17:12:18
"The issue will be put to MSPs tomorrow in a debate on the Scottish Government's record, with a Lib Dem amendment calling on the Nationalist administration to ditch its plans for an independence vote for the remainder of this parliamentary term."

Is this just the issue or is it the vote as well? Artcle doesn't mention when vote will be.

It's imposible to know the outcome before the MSP's have voted. It all depends on if the Labour party, Lib Dems and Tories allow there members the free vote.

So this un named Lib Dem wants the SNP to drop the question before it asked in parlement. Just because their party has been used a doormat in the Calmon commision buy their ideas of federlation been out ruled almost emently and they have no desrer to go for what the belive in. They seem to think the SNP should do the same with there belifes.
134

Stan Butler,

04/03/2009 17:14:39
Billy William

'FREEDOM!'

Is that FREEDOM! within the EU as a member of the ERM or is it FREEDOM! outside the EU?

135

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 17:15:48
148 Westfield Bairns, Love your post. LOL. sums Wufus up perfectly.

FREEDOM!
136

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 04/03/2009 17:16:41
*Please enter your comment*
137

Stan Butler,

04/03/2009 17:17:26
#153 Billiam Wallace

Is that FREEDOM! within the EU as a member of the ERM or is it FREEDOM! outside the EU?
138

Astonished,

Inverclyde 04/03/2009 17:18:30
I see Stan Butler aka "alex the Dalek" is getting more and more shrill in his one-man campaign of 'lying for labour'. Labour want to stop democracy again, you should never defend that. You demean yourself when you defend the indefensible.

Here are two questions to which you will know the answer :

As a long time member of the brown envelope party - Did you know about the unfettered lies regarding oil during the 70s ?- Or were labour lying to their own members as well ?


And finally it appears that embarrasing Gordon was addressing a bunch of staffers who were forced to attend. If it wasn't so sad it would be very funny.
139

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 17:19:37
152 Spam the Mammary: Is that FREEDOM! within the EU as a member of the ERM or is it FREEDOM! outside the EU?

Personally I would go for outwith the EU but part of a trading group in the way that Norway operates. They get most of the benefits of being in Europe but without the huge bureaucracy and taxation.

So FREEDOM! (from Westmonster)
140

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04/03/2009 17:20:24
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141

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 17:21:52
#155 Spam, have you developed a cyber stutter? You seem to be stammering, poor wee lamb, go and have a wee lie down, (on the M8).

FREEDOM!
142

brownlie,

04/03/2009 17:22:21
Rufus,

You really have to admire the American's innate politeness which prevented them howling with laughter. Not one mention of saving the world or that America was to blame for his incompetence as PM or Chancellor. No doubt he's saving that for the few gullible Labour supporters who still believe anything he says. Gordon says "I invented the abacus but Darling can't use it without Fred's advice" and the blinkered faithfull reply "Yes, great one!!".
143

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04/03/2009 17:22:22
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144

Munguin,

04/03/2009 17:23:16
Lets have a referendum if the SNP are going to lose what have the unionists got to fear?

I am sure Alec said a referendum is a once in a generation thing, didn't he? If he did I hope that gets ditched. I would like to actually see Scotland independent and would much rather we keep holding the referendum until we get the result we deserve. So lets say every time the people of Scotland elect an SNP government we can have another referedum, so one every four years!
145

Miss H,

04/03/2009 17:23:17
Entirely predictable. If the unionist parties wish to associate unionism with an unwillingness to trust the people of Scotland to take their own decisions then let them.
146

karin.m,

04/03/2009 17:23:57
fantastic news. the unionits are going to pi5s off the 80 percent of people who want a referendum. Just when you think they cant get any dumber and do anymore to turn people to the the snp.

THEY DO............LOL
147

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 04/03/2009 17:24:43
Leaving aside all the rhetoric, one has to look at realities. Study the figures in the govt's pre budget forecasts and then do an analysis of the fiscal position as it would apply to Scotland using the Scottish govt's own analysis.

According to them Scotland contributes 8.3% of UK tax revenue (non-oil) and is responsible for 9.5% of expenditure. If you do the appropriate calculation on this years estimates you get a deficit of £18.4bn - more than 15% of GDP - hugely above the already high UK estimate. Anyone who doubts this need only look up the approprate info. How would oil revenues help - maybe if oil spikes again but not at a present price of $43 per barrel - a level at which oil and gas UK say that only one third of new North Sea projects are viable.

The reality is that those who do believe in independence need to ensure that the Scottish economy is strong enough to cope first without just hoping for high oil prices to come to the rescue.
148

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04/03/2009 17:25:08
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149

karin.m,

04/03/2009 17:25:18
oh my god i cant stop laughing.......

why do they keep doing what the snp want....

dont they get it?
150

karin.m,

04/03/2009 17:27:12
166 and you got your figures where?

i see you dont reference them because its complete fabrication
151

Astonished,

Inverclyde 04/03/2009 17:27:32
165 : Yes Karin - Great innit ?


I see "Stan the labour man" appears to be unwilling to answer my question.
152

St.George,

04/03/2009 17:29:57
Brown: popular with idiots. About as popular as you then!
153

,

04/03/2009 17:30:07
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04/03/2009 17:30:48
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155

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 17:31:42
One thing that I have noticed on these forums is that the number of unionist lapdogs remains about the same, with the odd new log-on name here and there, but the number of pro independence posters just keeps growing. I think that the pro unionists and their masters are doing a wonderful job as recruiting sergeants for the cause, just as Karin says.
Thanks lads, appreciate the assistance.

Saor Alba
156

St.George,

04/03/2009 17:32:00
168. Well,you have to put a brave face on it,the snp have been out flanked yet again.
157

pwd,

Borders 04/03/2009 17:32:19
#22 Bejjy

Very well said! Nothing much needs to be added except perhaps to say that if all non SNP MSPs vote against the referendum they will actually be carrying out a democratic mandate because they represent voters who, by virtue of who they voted for, have indicated that they do not want independence.

Some of our posters cannot see this, of course, and they assume the 'noise' they make constitutes a clamour for independence by Scots at large. The old adage is true enough; none are so blind as those who WILL NOT see and none are so deaf as those who mistake noise for substance.
158

,

04/03/2009 17:34:13
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159

St.George,

04/03/2009 17:34:58
177. Would you like to be hung,drawn and quartered just like the traitor william wallace.
160

,

04/03/2009 17:36:38
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161

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 17:38:35
179. Pawned the borders (on the insane).
But what the unionist MSPs realise is that most of them would lose their seats if there were a general election tomorrow, so who has the mandate and the majority now? With all the changes that we have witnessed in the last few months, the political landscape has undergone a dramatic alteration. Could be that the independence vote would be closer than we think.

Saor Alba
162

St.George,

04/03/2009 17:38:38
180. That's why Obama pointed out that the relationship between the UK and the USA will never be broken.
163

Miss H,

04/03/2009 17:39:15
181 They are pretty stupid.
164

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04/03/2009 17:39:51
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165

arc of insolvency,

04/03/2009 17:40:29
When will this failing SNP government accept that democracy is working here.

We never voted for an Independence referendum we voted substantially in favour of unionist parties.

Salmond get over your OWN ego.
166

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 17:41:30
177. Would you like to be hung,drawn and quartered just like the traitor william wallace.

You missed out the question mark, numptie. No, I wouldn't and he wasn't a traitor as he was fighting a foreign king, not his own king. Are you a traitor or are you English?
167

Shredder,

04/03/2009 17:42:13
I doubt it'll come as any great shock to voters that a majority of their represenatives in the SP are unwilling to give the separation policy houseroom, so you Nutty Nats will wait in vain for a "backlash" against the rejection of your *rigged* "consultative" referendum question.
168

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/03/2009 17:43:25
191 Then let the unionist parties form a Govt (you have the numbers), or go to the country. Simple. Put your money where your mouths are.
169

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 04/03/2009 17:43:57
*PWB

Can you say for certain that your MSP votes on the majority of what the borders people want, or is it along party lines?
170

Brianwci,

04/03/2009 17:44:26
#3 cyber thingd says:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/7750728.stm

On third of people in Scotland are "breadline poor".

And I say, a nation which discovers Oil and Gas and 30 years later can 'boast' of one third of its population as 'breadline poor' deserves everything that's coming to it.

If this was France or any other mature Western nation there would be a million people outside Holyrood tomorrow demanding the resignation of every MSP who supports a union which has effectively robbed our people blind over 30 years and a lot more before that.
171

arc of insolvency,

04/03/2009 17:44:51
Ribbonman,Glasgow - When will you accept that the majority of Scotland does not want to be associated with Nationalist bigotry?

You use this language as you will never win an argument based on fact or reason.

Like you the SNP are SMARM over SUBSTANCE
172

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 17:48:12
191 ar*e of incontinence: "When will this failed NuLiebore government accept that democracy is working here.

We never voted for Gordon Strangely-Brown as Prime Minister, we voted for a socialist party but we were lied to.

Broon get over your OWN ego and your neuroses, psychiatric problems, low self esteem, inability to make decisions, lack of knowledge and understanding, etc. etc.
173

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04/03/2009 17:49:31
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174

Brian M,

Edinburgh 04/03/2009 17:51:11
#187 let's get real, the USA will unilateraly break this so-called 'relationship' if it suits them.
175

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 17:52:08
191 ar*e of incontinence: "Like you the NuLiebore Party are SMARM and SLEAZE over SUBSTANCE"

I think you will find that is closer to the truth.

Saor Alba
176

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04/03/2009 17:54:05
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St.George,

04/03/2009 17:54:30
204. No my friend it is you who are on thin ice.
178

,

04/03/2009 17:56:23
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,

04/03/2009 17:56:51
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Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 04/03/2009 17:57:43
From the article:-

"Liberal Democrats argue the SNP should instead concentrate its efforts on working towards economic recovery."

From the McCrone report on Scottish Independence(suppressed by the labour party):-

“What is quite clear is that the balance of payments gain from North Sea oil would
easily swamp the existing deficit whatever its size and transform Scotland into a
country with a substantial and chronic surplus.”

“The country would tend to be in chronic surplus to a quite embarrassing degree and
its currency would become the hardest in Europe, with the exception perhaps of the
Norwegian kroner.”

THE SNP IS "working towards economic recovery".
181

Poisoned Bait,

04/03/2009 18:03:27
176. Bird: " karin.m your so hot, will you marry me ?"

She just does it for me as well; she's one hot Nat and I'm sure she shouts "it's time!" in bed.
182

brownlie,

04/03/2009 18:07:11
199 arc

Do you have a self-righteous comment on the language used in the posting regarding hanging, drawing and quartering?

Can you send Rufus back out - he's not as boring as you?
183

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 04/03/2009 18:10:16
Bring it on - vote it down. Make my day.
Bring it on - vote it in. Make my day.

It's a win, win situation for the SNP.

184

The Master,

04/03/2009 18:10:58
#180 Bird


"The Master, hello Mr Brown how are you ?"

The Nut who exposed AM2 also revealed my name, but how do you know that I didn't give a false name when registering with the Scotsman? You know what I'm like!
185

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04/03/2009 18:14:13
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186

Alba Abú,

04/03/2009 18:16:04
199 arc.
Another court jester for his/her English masters.
187

Billiam Wallace,

04/03/2009 18:18:48
#220 I see your point Conan, but the fact is that they are intent on perpetuating a state of injustice that they are aware of and seek to strengthen. they are our enemies not mere debaters. They are entitled to their views but they are spouting lies and false propaganda and that cannot be condoned.
The Master(bates) once more on here spouting (urgh!) drivel.
188

,

04/03/2009 18:20:04
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189

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 04/03/2009 18:23:51
Conan

Have you got your fingers crossed behind your back????
190

Brian M,

Edinburgh 04/03/2009 18:25:37
Gordon is indeed the one-eyed man, but unfortunately for him the rest of us are not blind.

By the way, did the congressmen think he is English?

191

The Master,

04/03/2009 18:35:16
#226 Brian M: " By the way, did the congressmen think he is English?"

The producers of the Simpsons certainly don't; Brown has not been offered the opportunity to follow in Blair's footsteps by appearing on the show because of the embarrassment which would be caused by the necessity of having to subtitle the British PM!
192

The Master,

04/03/2009 18:37:11
#227 Conan: "The SNP are a party of INCLUSION, not EXCLUSION."

There the first Nationalist party in modern history that can can make that boast, then (if true lol).
193

argonaut,

east lothian 04/03/2009 18:40:07

brown , darling , murphy , cooper etc etc are all destined to the trash heap come the next election in london and SNP strategists know this. salmond knows full well that the other parties at holyrood will veto any plans for a referendum and in the process nationalists will declare labour, tories / l dems are denying the scots the chance to decide on their future.
salmond SNP and probaly all nationalists are banking on cameron winning the next election in london. it will be a completely different ball game once cameron wins along with the scottish elections shortly afterwards, with an excellent chance of SNP increasing their hollyrood seats.scots are hardly going to vote for scottish labour after watching Uk labour being wiped out at westminister and for most of us - the tories will never be an option.Leaves the current SNP government and Eck or Lib dems - a no brainer really...
194

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 04/03/2009 18:46:37
CONAN



The SNP are a party of INCLUSION, not EXCLUSION


I agree 100% with that, but when you are up against the unionists it has to be on equal footing.
How many of say Tavish Scots constituents would like a referendum?
195

Lianachan,

Highlands 04/03/2009 18:47:56
#75 Could you just answer the question, please?
196

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04/03/2009 18:49:12
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 04/03/2009 18:55:36
I like the precedents that are being set within this parliamentary term.

Perhaps coalition should be barred in the future to ensure that the will of the parliament is paramount at all times. This would certainly help the electorate to decide which party to vote for in elections to come.

Who knows, it might even pave the way for non confrontational politics in Scotland. Which is what is required.

Adds a whole new dimension to being in opposition.

I fear it would only work in a Scottish parliament with Devolution Maximum at the minimum.
198

Conan the Librarian™,

04/03/2009 18:56:37
233
235
Hen, ex, look at the L in Librarian.

Though he is quite good, he's still a fakey.
199

Stan Butler,

04/03/2009 18:58:00

The fact remains that if Holyrood votes not to have a referendum it's because there's no electoral mandate for it.
200

,

04/03/2009 18:58:45
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201

Conan the Librarian™,

04/03/2009 19:07:24
241

Ok then, show us some posts from a year or so ago.
202

,

04/03/2009 19:08:14
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203

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 04/03/2009 19:10:24
242. The Original Bird of Prey was a rabid unionist.

Conan is Conan.
204

Conan the Librarian™,

04/03/2009 19:10:49
242

Not my style BoP.
205

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

04/03/2009 19:11:48
I find this current opposition tactic of voting down the government's bills then scolding them for not being able to pass them, rather bizarre.
206

Conan the Librarian™,

04/03/2009 19:14:10
Good Evening Col. and Jock.

The same auld sang on here I see, one fakey posing as half a dozen posters.
207

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 04/03/2009 19:17:47
249, Newton. I don't. The media will spin it the other way around.

Wait till election time and see.

Keep a good record of the actual goings on to debunk the media spin then.
208

Tommy Tank,

Edinburgh 04/03/2009 19:23:19
Can you imagine Scotland going it alone with the two biggest tax revenue generating sectors - finance and oil - on their knees?

RBS and HBOS put paid to the myth that Scotland can fend for itself. Only last year, Salmond was proclaiming Iceland and Ireland as role models for Scotland - what a joke he looks now!
209

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 04/03/2009 19:24:16
251, Bird of Prey Will Watch What I Say.

Not kidding. Never been back to Corpach - the yeast infection from the Tennents lager beerline at the Corpach Hotel was the greatest incentive not to return. Not to mention the suicide drive into the canal locks by the white Astra van man.

250,Conan. Good evening the real one.
210

Miss H,

04/03/2009 19:34:41
220 I quite agree. Rather than hanging about commenting on forums we should be taking the message to voters on their doorsteps.

The unionist parties don’t trust you to decide your country’s future.

They don’t want you to have any say.

Only the SNP trusts the people of Scotland.

On behalf of SNP activists everywhere I would like to extend my thanks to the Lib Dem, Labour and Tory MSPs whose stupidity will prove to be a marvellous vote winner for the SNP. Keep up the good work chaps, we will see an SNP majority government in 2011!

211

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 04/03/2009 19:36:57
Yep, Bird of Prey@258, we were discussing something like that. Tradewinds in Corpach and the petfood shop on the corner of the wee square in Fort William.

What happened to the original sign on name? You also sound a bit more mature and balanced with your posts.

Menopause/puberty over now?
212

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 04/03/2009 19:43:21
I would like to know what happened to the police numbers thread.

213

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/03/2009 19:46:03
263 It got infected by fakes (Sam the bam) and was moved down the list, it was on page 3 of the news section last time I saw it. You didn't miss much.
214

Chris83,

Edinburgh 04/03/2009 19:51:00
#244 Did you really just say that the result of the last election was "wrong" and that the elected representatives have no right to carry out their "wrong" mandate? That really does take the biscuit, so much for democracy.

Incidentally, the majority of the MSPs (79) elected are Unionists and were explicitly elected as such. It is therefore the democratic will of the people of Scotland that there is no referendum as their manifestos did not promise one. The SNP have only been allowed to govern by the goodwill of the other parties in the parliament. They could have faced a no confidence vote years ago.

Incidentally; the posters on this website are well known as including some of the more extreme elements of nationalism. They can turn a discussion about the weather into a diatribe against those who don't agree with them on their favourite topic! There is absolutely no way that this is representative of the people of Scotland, so I wouldn't get their hopes up too much!
215

Truely English,

04/03/2009 19:52:41
It is not whether the Nationalits trust the people of Scotland, the important question is whether the people of Scotland trust the Nationalists.

We are all British and the only government most people in Scotland support and trust is the British Government. It is they who will get us out of this world economic problem.

Britain will always succeed because of our strong resolve in remaining British in language and cultural heritage.
216

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/03/2009 19:53:56
266 Oh no Smee, it's not for the SNP to resign, it's for the opposition parties to challenge them, or risk looking like a bigger bunch of muppets than they already do. This is not a vote on the referendum bill tomorrow, the SNP can still present that. This is a chance to see whether the opposition parties are making an empty futile gesture, or have actually got the cajones to put their money where their mouths are. What do you think ?
217

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/03/2009 19:56:16
''It is not whether the Nationalits trust the people of Scotland, the important question is whether the people of Scotland trust the Nationalists.'' Well there is really only one way to find that out isn't there Truely(sic) English (it's TRULY). What a shame the unionists are too feart to find out.

218

Conan the Librarian™,

04/03/2009 19:58:16
266
If we are quoting Cromwell, that mass murderer of Scots prisoners of war:-

“I beseech you in the bowels of christ to think it possible you may be mistaken.”

About a lot of things.
219

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/03/2009 19:58:57
267 ''They could have faced a no confidence vote years ago'' - as a wee wummin said - Bring it On.
220

Ewan M,

04/03/2009 19:59:18
Salmond and the SNp proving their self interest again.

Not going to make their 1000 police pledge.
Fewer teachers in our schools
No student endowments repaid
No extra after school nursery care.

These are ALL manifesto pledges ALL of which have been failed COMPLETELY.

The SNP are the Fred Goodwin of the politcial world and all Salmond can do is look smug in charge of such gross failure.

If the SNP think they are going places they are kidding themselves - they make Labour look good!
221

Ewan M,

04/03/2009 20:00:49
#268 well said - please excuse the undoubted bigotry you will recieve from some narrow minded SNP supporters because of this.
222

Ewan M,

04/03/2009 20:02:00
~259 I think he already dead
223

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 04/03/2009 20:02:26
266 sm


LIT is NOT dead....It will reappear after we win the 2011 election

The referendum will go ahead as slab/lib dum will be frightened of the voters at the last minute

SFT will take off now that PPP/PFI has been exposed as the expensive folly that it is.

So you depart....be off with you.....
224

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/03/2009 20:04:00
275 Freudian slip ?
225

Tris,

04/03/2009 20:06:28
Oh dear. Bring it on; don't bring it on; yes do; no er wait a minute ...no don't.

Labour never want referenda; They are far too close to letting the people have their say. The English government won't give one on the Lisbon Treaty, and the opposition here will not allow one on independence.

Of course, in both cases they say that clearly there is no need for one. They know what the people want.

Well, time will tell...

Oh and Rufus... there's only one Tris... and that's me.

226

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/03/2009 20:32:38
279''Only a bunch of liars, or morons with the IQ of a used teabag, could have proposed it as a serious policy.''

Sorry Smee but that title is awarded to the Labour Party, who rather than use prudential borrowing to fund capital projects are actually bailing out PFI. Now that really is moronic.

I think we will see SFT working in a shared services context. I am not sure if we will see it working to fund big capital works like the Forth Bridge, I think we need borrowing powers for that.

What do you think ?
227

dude,

wishy 04/03/2009 20:36:23
267 Chris83, Edinburgh 04/03/2009 19:51:00

Incidentally, the majority of the MSPs (79) elected are Unionists and were explicitly elected as such.


So by your reasoning anybody that did not vote SNP does not believe in Scottish independence, what a lot of rubbish you talk, the last election was not about that you cretin it was about change.

Change in government from a 'do nothing worse' culture to 'yes we can' culture, why is it that the SNP can do nothing right in these peoples eyes even if what they do is good, oh! i know they british nationalists and 'yes they hate' Scotland
228

Anonym,

04/03/2009 20:39:27
It is totally lame to try and use the economic crisis as an excuse to block an independence referendum.

Bring it on! (On schedule, that is.)
229

dude,

wishy 04/03/2009 20:41:24
The SFT is a new way of public management of contracts, giving guidance on project management among other things.

The SFT will be a reality and will provide value for taxpayers money for years to come, remember Hairmyers hospital when if you put in £100 over the years of the PFI contract this £100 would earn you millions, i think these days are over and PPP/PFI is finished in Scotland unless god forbid labour in there present form get back into power.
230

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 04/03/2009 20:42:58
279


So why is the government proping it up?

Why are investors not investing anymore?

PS I saw a tea bag win 15 to 1 once.

PPS I DOO love the way you jump at every little leg pull.

PPP SFT
231

Phil C,

04/03/2009 20:43:33
Who said anything about a referendum vote now (apart from Bendy Wendy and Paddy Pantsdown). Bring it on, I heard them say!!

The referendum is timetabled for 2012, letting people see what the SNP can do in practice. That still seems perfectly reasonable. The onionists should be helping sort out Labour's mess and not firing up irrelevant diversionary rockets.
232

walter,

04/03/2009 20:46:48
I read the article and then the first post says "Unionism = no democracy in Scotland"
Labour, Lib/Dems and the Conservatives all said they would not hold nor support a referendum before the election.
They received 79 seats in the parliament.
The SNP said before the election they would hold a referendum.
They received 47 seats.
There is nothing undemocratic about MSPs voting the way they said they would to the people before the people voted for them.
I don't know what the nats on here think democracy is but I do know that it is not that the majority should vote with them just because they said they would do something that the majority said they would not.


233

,

04/03/2009 20:47:06
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234

,

04/03/2009 20:48:14
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235

arc of insolvency,

04/03/2009 20:48:21
281 - "i know they british nationalists and 'yes they hate' Scotland".

More utter parnoia and hate from the SNP support.

Anonym - Imagine using the two largest scottish companies which were/are near bankruptcy and oil which would account for most of our income(only $40 a barrel) as an argument, that would be crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did you go to Uni with Salmond? He's in it for himself.

sometimes I read some SNP supporters comments and dont never whether to laugh or cry!
236

arc of insolvency,

04/03/2009 20:51:00
286 - walter totally agree - these people think they are above democracy and the vast majority of people's votes count for nothing.
237

,

04/03/2009 20:51:21
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238

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/03/2009 20:53:29
286 Walter - try and understand this. The SNP were voted in to power by their supporters who gave them the mandate to table a referendum bill yes ? Now, it is entirely possible that when that bill is tabled the opposition can vote it down, after debate. What, however, they are proposing to do is attempt to vote it down before the damn thing has been presented. Now if you don't think there is something profoundly undemocratic about that, then I suggest you get a dictionary.
239

dude,

wishy 04/03/2009 20:56:24
289 arc of insolvency

Paraniod i hear you say, the biggest brit nat of them all is Gordon Brown who could not even admit to being a scot "eh! im from North Britain" he says, "i will do anything and everything to save my beloved union" he says, i was once in the orange lodge and i dont believe that Scotland is a country, he would say.

Dont think im paraniod just stating the truth here IMO
240

Hugh Roscombe,

04/03/2009 20:58:16
arc/smee etc

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha and a big

HA!
241

dude,

wishy 04/03/2009 21:00:59
The latest opinion polls put +support at 38% for 40% against with 22% undecided, i dont think thats a majority do you. And as i ststed in another post everyone who voted for the so called unionist parties are not all unionists, that is just a Convenient lie, and i think will come back to haunt them.

Imagine voting for a party you think supports your views on things and then being told you are a unionistfor voting for them, i know they would not get my vote again.
242

Hugh Roscombe,

04/03/2009 21:02:20
Consensus politics. If it's voted down it's voted down.

Who will the people of Scotland blame for not allowing a voice?

What are the unionists afraid of? If they're so sure (as many a deranged poster has told us) that Scotland wouldn't vote for independence why vote against the plan? Are you all worried in case it doesn't go your way?

You're all feart. Feart ah tells ye - FEART.

LMAO.
243

dude,

wishy 04/03/2009 21:05:55
289 arc of insolvency, 04/03/2009 20:48:21

sometimes I read some SNP supporters comments and dont never whether to laugh or cry!


maybe you should just nod your head in agreement and dont let your butchers apron blinkers distract you from the truth, hehehehe


i think you should now change your name tha arc stuff just does not do it anymore, given the state of our own economy, blinkers, and the fact it was a non SNP supporter who put us in this position.
244

dude,

wishy 04/03/2009 21:10:04
yes shug they are feart to let Scotland decide

feart of the 38% for
feart of the 22% undecided
feart for there careers
feart for there masters careers (westminster)

so feart they gang up on us and stifle debate, lie thru their teeth, remember the £5,000 tax bill anyone, tell us this is no time for a referendum, why not?
245

oder,

Scotland 04/03/2009 21:16:05
166 Ugly George,Edinburgh

I hope your right! because if you are, then independence is a forgone conclusion! and that makes this referendum and unionist arguments null and void! history shows that England does not hold onto anything that costs it money.
246

Hugh Roscombe,

04/03/2009 21:16:05
FEART - JUST FEART.

Bring it on. Ha ha ha ha ha etc
247

Hugh Roscombe,

04/03/2009 21:17:05
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha cough splutter choke. Night all.
248

Hugh Roscombe,

04/03/2009 21:17:37
Hey! I got 300 for independence.
249

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

04/03/2009 21:38:45
Yes or No something this important should be left to the people of Scotland to decide. It should not be the decision of the three parties that take their instructions from head office which is located in another nations capital.

Democratic rights must be protected. I believe it is Rufus' right to vote No, unfortunately for Unionists only one of his monikers will get a vote(Unless it is postal vote bonanza again)

I believe it is my right to Vote YES.

FFS it is only a referendum, If they are sure they have the support of the people of Scotland why are they scared of putting their confidence to the test. I wonder.

Olympic Games in London = Worthy cost to whole UK.

Vote on Independence = Waste of money

They disgrace themselves with this denial. They convince we more and more everyday that we need to be free.


250

Conan the Librarian™,

04/03/2009 21:49:28
304

251

Conan the Librarian™,

04/03/2009 21:50:58
0100011001110101011000110110101100100000011011110110011001100110
0110011001100001011010110110010101111001
252

arc of insolvency,

04/03/2009 21:57:40
204 Democratic Scot "if this action goes through people like you are skating on very thin ice" - is this meant to intimidate me or make me laugh! Either way it does the latter!
253

Tris,

04/03/2009 22:41:33
286... and then Wendy (you remember her doubtless) said Bring it on, and Iain Gray stuttered about what Wendy said and what she meant, and Gordon Brown stapled his hand to the desk in rage, and then... well Wendy got dumped....

So who knows what their policy is, or was, or may be tomorrow or the day after, or even in 10 minutes' time, never mind in a few months.

The Liberals said recently that they would not stop the people of Scotland having their say on this matter and now they seem not to want to. But then, thats the Liberals for you. However, at least Nick Clegg doesn't go around stapling himself to things in blinding rages.

The only people who have been consistent on it is are the SNP (for) and the Tories (against).
254

Alba Abú,

04/03/2009 23:10:30
#271 Conan.

Another Cromwell quote............"The glory of this day belongs to God" Spoken after his army of butchers had murdered 6,000 Men Women and children who had surrendered to his garrison at Drogheda, Co. Louth Ireland.
255

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 05/03/2009 00:23:35
So the unionists are scared and this time they are going to wrap it up as the fear for the economy, as in getting their excuses in early!

I wonder how the Libdem Munro will vote or 'Bring it on' Wendy?

I look forward to the unionists party's trying to explain this to the people prior to the next Holyrood elections.
256

redcliffe62,

13/03/2009 06:59:59
Following the news that the Pope was a catholic and Bill clinton could not keep his winkie in his trousers for more than 30 seconds, the news that the London parties stood toghether and opposed the Scottish people having a say was hardly a surprise. Be it 1947 or 2007, the Scots have expressed a desire to control some aspects outwith London, and London has until now, and will continue, to provide lip service with the Civil Service and media behind them in an attempt to maintain the status quo.
257

The Tin Man,

22/03/2009 10:02:08
#274 ochone

What, exactly, is there to explain? All the political party's stances on a referendum were perfectly clear at the last election. End of story.
258

Canny Mann,

The Kingdom 24/03/2009 04:58:57
222 Tommy Tank.
quote: Can you imagine Scotland going it alone with the two biggest tax revenue generating sectors - finance and oil - on their knees?
RBS and HBOS put paid to the myth that Scotland can fend for itself. Only last year, Salmond was proclaiming Iceland and Ireland as role models for Scotland - what a joke he looks now!

Let me remind you the architect of the RBS failure "Sir Fred Goodwin" Was promoted by Gordon Brown to oversee the UK banking system. I wonder if you are laughing at Gordon Brown too, for believing the spin, of a money grabbing bully.

Norway who are an oil producing country(similar in size and population as Scotland) in the arc of then prosperity, have an oil fund to benefit the people, are not tied to the euro, and the norwegian banks were not dragged into the greed driven(million dollar bonuses) recklessness we currently see in most western countries.
To say the banking system in Scotland is broken and only a unionist govt. in Westminster can repair it is balderdash(Bank of England control ALL 'UK' high street banking). As is the idea the oil revenue is falling never to recover. We all know as a comodity becomes scarce the price increases.
With banks unable to lend, oil research and development is strapped for cash as is every other industry, eg house building etc. Not an SNP failure at all. 30 years of first the tories and then Labour, yet our children are the unhappiest in europe and over 30% are on or below the breadline.
Scottish people voted for a socialist Labour party in the past. Labour has deserted the left of centre politics and betrayed the will of the labour voter. We have seen how they cuddled up to the bankers, plundered the pension funds, and gave us the highest taxes in history. They may give us a minimum wage, however it is Labour who say you are only worth £5.73 an hour. Poverty perpetrated by the people who claim to have our interests at heart.

Alba gu brath
259

Los Angeles,

06/04/2009 08:01:08

Unbless opposition parties can convince the people of Scotland there are greater benefits staying in the Union than leaving, benefits guaranteed in perpetuity, or there is a second way to restore powers for Scotland, and that too offers water-tight democratic rights and genuine freedom from intervention by Westminster, the only choice is independence.

As things currently stand, the contempt with which many English politicians hold Scotland, and sadly Scottish ones in debt to Westminster, without allegiance to their own nation, is wholly unacceptable to its people, and does nothing to foster better relations between our two nations.

It is time for the Scotland haters and the Scotland raiders to leave and find another hobby. The people of Scotland will not be cheated by profiteers and half-measures.







 

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