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McLeish backs call for vote on independence



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Published Date: 06 April 2008
FORMER Labour First Minister Henry McLeish has said Scotland's future should eventually be resolved with a referendum on independence.
But the ex-MP and MSP said that a snap poll – as proposed by Scotland's richest man Sir Tom Hunter – would be a mistake, insisting that there first needed to be a major UK-wide debate about the future of the Union.

His comments come as a new poll this weekend reveals 65% of voters in Scotland believe there should be a referendum vote within the next two years.

It follows Hunter's call for an immediate vote, revealed in Scotland on Sunday last week, in which he declared that Scots should get the chance to decide on the destiny of their country.

He said that Scotland would then be able to move on, either as an independent nation or as part of the Union.

The poll found that only 11% of Scots support Hunter's call for an immediate referendum. However, 28% think one should be held next year, with 26% saying it should be in 2010.

Only 21% think there should not be a referendum, with 15% expressing no view.

Following Hunter's call last week, several Labour MPs have declared they too want to force a referendum in a bid to "shoot the SNP's fox". The same poll this weekend shows that if a poll were to be held today, independence would be defeated. Only 34% of Scots would back independence, with 50% of Scots saying they oppose it.

McLeish told Scotland on Sunday: "I think the issue has to be resolved at some point with a referendum, but for that to happen there needs to be a more informed debate, and I think the public are both bemused and confused by so many conversations taking place.

"Yes, it has to be resolved at some point in the future, but to get there we need to take the public more seriously, we need to take the business community more seriously and we need to have a more informed debate that looks at the Union."

McLeish said that his favoured option was to turn Britain into a federal country, where Scotland and Wales would become semi-autonomous but would still be part of the UK when it came to defence and foreign affairs.

He attacked all the Scottish parties for failing to back it.

"I can't for the life of me see why some kind of federalism, with far more autonomy for Scotland, still part of the Union, can't be one of the options.

"A lot of people I speak to in Scotland, in all the parties including the SNP, see that as a valid option."

Gordon Brown is now coming under pressure from several Scottish MPs over the referendum question, but ministers are insisting they will not bend. Scottish Secretary Des Browne declares today that there is "no need" for a referendum when last year "two-thirds of electors in Scotland rejected the notion that our country should be broken up".

However, it is understood Hunter has received private backing for his own plan from across the political spectrum.

A spokesman for the billionaire said last night: "The political parties can't on the one hand claim voters don't want independence and then deny them the opportunity to vote on that very subject. There's no logic to their stance."

Hunter was backed by former Scottish Secretary Lord Forsyth last night. He said: "We should recognise the person Alex Salmond is – people voted for him because they were fed up with Labour, not because they wanted independence.

"We should end the instability and uncertainty, and get this argument out of the way. There's great anxiety in Scotland because of the uncertainty, and business hates uncertainty. I would support any proposal to have a referendum as soon as possible."

He added: "Alex Salmond has got his opponents in the Scottish Parliament dancing to his tune. He's the Pied Piper and he's going to lead them off the cliff. It's high time the Unionist parties stopped this nonsense from the Nationalists and said bring it (a referendum] on."

Commenting on McLeish's intervention, a spokesman for the First Minister said: "This is a positive contribution to the debate, and we particularly welcome support from Henry McLeish for a referendum. The leadership of the Labour and Tory parties are becoming more isolated by the day on this issue."

The poll, carried out by YouGov, took the views of 1,070 Scottish-based adults between April 2 and 4, 2008.

The full article contains 759 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 April 2008 7:55 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Scottish independence
 
1

Castaway,

06/04/2008 00:26:36
Wait at least until after the next UK general election which must be held before 3 June 2010 then consider having a referendum on Scottish independence.
In the meantime The Scottish Government could think about having a consultative referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
2

,

06/04/2008 00:49:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
3

Senga Jean,

Scotland 06/04/2008 01:12:42
I am all for shooting such mythical foxes. The SNP must really be on the up and up given today's attacks on their perfectly rational aspirations for Scotland. Independence is such a liberating desire.....it becomes inevitable!
4

Matt there,

06/04/2008 01:39:46
How come all the sensible people in the Labour Party have been ousted by Wendy Alexander and the like?
5

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/04/2008 01:42:52
I think a lot of people like Tom Hunter and Lord Forsyth are under some mistaken impression that having a referendum is a one off sort of deal that can be put to bed and never revisited again.

If you look at the example of Quebec in Canada. They have had 2 referendums on Independence with the Federalist winning by a hairs breadth in one of them. They hasn't stopped the Quebec Nationalists and another referendum in the next 5 years looks inevitable.

Though Alex Salmond has promised that after a referendum not to revisit the question for 25 years if the Independence movement fails to get a majority. I doubt he will be the leader for 25 years. I for one would support that we keep having referendum after referendum until the goal is achieved.
6

democrate,

central Scotland 06/04/2008 02:08:17
An early referendum wdnt be fair - Nicol Stephen accused Salmond of cleverness a few months ago, remember? Scotland needs to give Salmond time to stop being clever before the people decide. Or maybe the people have got too clever too soon?
7

Samoyed,

Costa del Menie 06/04/2008 03:51:30
I'm truly sorry Henry but you should pay more attention to your specialist in Scottish matters, his Excellency the Secretary of State for Northern Britain. He just said that "The second problem for them is that there is no need for a referendum when a year ago two thirds of electors in Scotland rejected the notion that our country should be broken up".

Got it! Now go and sin no more.
8

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 06/04/2008 04:52:37
McLeish's comments are interesting, but why should Britain control foreign affairs or defence? On both issues we would be a lot better off representing ourselves.

McLeish should have more ambition for his own country (I know he has a lot more than Windy but that's not the point). There is no reason why our flag shouldn't fly at the United Nations or any reason why we should continue to provide cannon fodder for Great Britain or pay a share of unusable nuclear weapons.
9

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 06/04/2008 05:20:34
So now you are panicking, dragged to the negotiating table at last. You want a referendum now, how strange,the SCOTTISH PEOPLE still have not their heads around being CONNED by the unionist party's for CENTURIES. Get rid of this cancer within our NATION AND MOVE FORWARD!
10

Shug the Dug,

Edinburgh 06/04/2008 08:51:23
A very wise old stockbroker I used to know was wont to frequently quote that old maxim "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics" when advising circumspection and caution in investment decisions. I was led to recall his admonition by reading this article in the 'North British-man'. I was fascinated by your percentages, the problem was I could not find details of the size of sample, the socio-economic and geographic profiles of those questioned, nor their current political affiliations. Without this the figures are totally meaningless except to assist you in your strategies against the SNP government. I found a majority amongst my friends and neighbours for independence but I could find no-one within my acquaintance that had been invited to be a respondent to this poll. There are ten poeple in my close family. Of them 2 were unsure how they would vote on independence, 2 didn't even know there might be a vote, and the remainder (including myself) would vote for. So, without burdening anyone with the crucial supporting data on sample size and constitution, I could safely say 60% of those polled would vote for independence and not be actually lying. Would the 'North British-man' newspaper print such a poll outcome? Or would they do a true journalist's job and check the data first and then publish their findings in detail so readers could judge the validity of the conclusions? What, and let facts spoil a good story? I am sure the great and the good dictating editorial policy at the 'North British-man' wouldn't want to over-burden we great unwashed with such trivia . Clearly we would not be intellectually equipped to understand such things. Best to editorialise and sanitize before releasing anything so important to the masses.
11

Shug the Dug,

Edinburgh 06/04/2008 09:17:28
before you all leap on my small gaffe above - yes, I did read that the poll was on 1070 Scotland based adults but I was so incensed I fell prey to my emotions and did not apply reason to the number. Let's have a look: According to the general Register Office for Scotland the total of those registered to vote in UK Parliament elections in 2007 was 3,887,571 and those for Scottish Council and Parliament elections in the same year 3,526,262. Out of this the poll the 'North British-man' quoted chose to sample just 1070 or 0.03034 percent (taking the lower of the electorate figures) Of these half are reported as not likely to vote for independence so your conclusion of a probable defeat of any independence vote is actually based on the opinions of 0.01517 percent of Scotland registered electorate and this ignores your obfuscatory qualifier "Scotland based adults" - were they registered voters? As I am sure your school report often said - "must try harder"!!!!
12

eric,

06/04/2008 09:19:27
Torys are the Next Gvt IN uk.So Vote for Independence or face the Red neck of being dumped out union by England.
13

John H C,

edinburgh 06/04/2008 09:37:58
Iam unhappy about referendums. To me this is an abdication of responsibility. We vote for someone to represent us in Parliament and should trust them to do their job. The decisions about everything could be put individually to the people therefore no need for a parliament. The people generally are ignorant of the finer points of major issues. How many for instance have read the Lisbon treaty and even if they have would they understand it? My assumption is that the person representing me in power will study these issues and bypass the rhetoric which abounds. That is what he/she is paid to do, then vote accordingly.
14

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 06/04/2008 09:46:23
#14 John H

I don't believe it! You trust politicians to make your decisions for you? Are you a man or a mouse?

Rep. Gov made sense when the people were ignorant and ill-informed, but that's all been reversed for some while now as I hope you have noticed.

Some of us think that all important decisions should be taken by an informed referendum.
15

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 06/04/2008 09:48:09
Why should the people of Scotland be restricted to a referendum result which will stand for 25 years ?
UK and Scottish governments only last a fraction of that time.
Labour held power in Scotland long enough to educate five or six generations and we still have not eradicated illiteracy.
Time is relative.
16

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 06/04/2008 09:51:18
Everyone wants a referendum on independence-everyone EXCEPT SNP.

SNP knows it will lose (every serious opinion poll shows this) and so it wants to keep its snouts in the Holyrood and Westminster troughs for as long as possible before it is finally rumbled and chucked out.

The sooner Alex two-pays becomes Alex pension-only the better for Scotland.
17

James,

Dundee 06/04/2008 09:59:18
LOL - are you being serious?

When are you changing the name of the Uk to Briton by deepoll?
18

James,

dundee 06/04/2008 10:00:22
*deedpoll*

The SNP are here to stay.
19

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 06/04/2008 10:17:35
"Everyone wants a referendum on independence-everyone EXCEPT SNP.

SNP knows it will lose (every serious opinion poll shows this) and so it wants to keep its snouts in the Holyrood and Westminster troughs for as long as possible before it is finally rumbled and chucked out."

You've gotta love those crazy Unionists!

It is indeed likely that the SNP would lose (albeit less likely with every day that passes of sensible, popular government). So why are they the only party committed to one, and why are all the Unionist ones so very scared of it?

Watching Unionists desperately trying to juggle two entirely contradictory positions ("We'd win! So for God's sake don't have one!") on the subject of a referendum is *endlessly* entertaining. Keep it up, kids.
20

Queen D,

Glasgow 06/04/2008 10:23:34
Well said Reverend!
21

Media 1,

Cape Town 06/04/2008 10:24:00
Rev Campbell

I am a unionist and I want a referendum.

If I was to ask Salmond for a YES or NO referendum, would he agree with me?
22

,

06/04/2008 10:31:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
23

frank mcbride,

lusitania 06/04/2008 10:32:46
#17, Rules.....

Your comments are becoming more bizarre by the day.

But, dinnae fach yersel, after the next Westminster Election, when the SNP wins an outright majority of Scottish seats, the Unionist Alliance will demand the Referendum which you say they currently support, but, cannot, by implication, make happen because they do not have parliamentry support.

You are saying, aren't you that the SNP MAJORITY, in Holyrood, is preventing a Referendum?

Bizarre, truly bizarre!!!!
24

Rodster,

Glasgow 06/04/2008 10:41:47
Let me repeat it again for the likes of Media,Rulkesbotnorulers, and all other Unionist Uncle Toms.
The SNP and its supporters would welcome, nay embrace a referendum , and respect the result whether for 25 years doubtful , but certainly a generation or until such times as the people made known their desire for another referendum.
It is the Unionist parties that totally reject even discussing Independence let alone allowing the Scottish people a democratic referendum.
Watch, Brown , Browne and co change tune if the majority of Westminster seats after next election fall to the SNP , suddenly as their last throw of the dice they will want to hold a referendum.
The rules will change overnight to suit their noses in the trough attitude.
Scotland will be independent one day, no if , only when get used to it that day is a coming you lot can delay it you cannot stop it.
When history is written you lot will be remembered as fondly as Monteith a load of 5th columnists against your own country!!!
25

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/04/2008 10:41:49
#17 Ruled

Where do you get this rubbish from. Of course the SNP want a referendum. Where have you been for the last 11 months?
26

pehman,

sussex 06/04/2008 10:45:26
As wendy said when being interviewed by brian taylor, she doesn't want a referendum as she doesn't want Independence.

I could take it that slab's own polling shows why she has taken the stance she has !
27

Union is Best,

06/04/2008 10:54:47
#17 Rules! Brilliant work! That will flummox the Nats! AS every Unionist party opposes a referendum, but people seem to want one, we should simply blame the SNP for opposing one while they campaign for it! Superb! And if the worst comes to the worst we can simply say we back independence and the SNP oppose it!
28

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 06/04/2008 11:02:39
Why is it that Labour politicians only seem to speak sense when they are retired from office?

Henry's comments are refreshing in the midst of constant political point-scoring.
29

John S,

06/04/2008 11:04:03
For the SNP to hold a independence referendum it would require 65 MSP's to agree
The opposition or any MSP can propose a referendum and if they can muster more than the 65 MSP's to agree, it will go ahead.
The ball is in the oppositions court if they think they can win ?
Trying to force a Scottish election by Scottish Government resigning is awkward because if the FM or the Scottish Government resigns or does not survive a Motion of No Confidence.
In such circumstances, it is the responsibility of the Presiding Officer to appoint an individual to serve as First Minister in the interim, until the Scottish Parliament determines on a new nominee to be presented to the Sovereign for formal appointment.
If no one is appointed then a extraordinary general election will be called.
In theory the opposition could appoint there own nominee as FM who would serve as FM until the next Scottish election.
Wendy Alexander has said "If they lose a vote of confidence on an issue like local income tax, then they will have to go back to the people."
Now substitute local income tax with a Scottish referendum. "If they lose a vote of confidence on an issue like a Scottish referendum, then they will have to go back to the people."
30

Elizabeth I (1558-1603 AD),

edinburgh 06/04/2008 11:11:57
Forget the referendum, just let the people of Scotland make sure they vote Salmond and the rest of his Scottish Nose Pickers(SNP) out of office in 2010, and keep them out for evermore. They are nothing but a bunch of anti-english, bigotted whingers with chips on their shoulders!
31

Elizabeth I (1558-1603 AD),

edinburgh 06/04/2008 11:13:24
Forget the referendum, just let the people of Scotland make sure they vote Salmond and the rest of his Scottish Nose Pickers(SNP) out of office in 2011, and keep them out for evermore. They are nothing but a bunch of anti-english, bigotted whingers with chips on their shoulders!
32

Media 1,

cape town 06/04/2008 11:14:02
Wait a minute Wardog! Forget greater powers and lets focus on the issue of a referendum on independence.
I am a unionist and right here right now, I will tell you that I WANT a referendum on the issue of independence. I want my chance to say NO to independence, and I want you to have your chance to say YES to independence. When all of us have had our YES and NO say we can count the ballots and the winner takes all, THAT IS DEMOCRACY, and I want that democracy to take its course.
Now I ask you. Is Salmond in favour of offering me the opportunity to say YES or NO?
33

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 06/04/2008 11:14:18
Rulesbutnotrulers

Can we have some informed debate on the merits of Federalism and the likelyhood of it occurring. Unless you are tongue-in-cheek, I take it you support federalism?
34

Lennox11,

Coatbridge 06/04/2008 11:16:05
Henry must see this as a way of making a few quid on the old X's
35

Queen D,

Glasgow 06/04/2008 11:22:30
Media 1, in Cape Town , the answer to your question is YES , three times YES.
And so am I !
36

John S,

06/04/2008 11:22:41
#33 Read my post #30 it isn't up to Alex Salmond he cannot muster the required 65 MSP's but the opposition can at anytime so they are the ones who can call a referendum on indepedence.
37

eric,

Lothian 06/04/2008 11:30:24
The unionist & snp are actually in the same boat as far as English are concerned,We are Scots end of ,And if we dont vote ourselves out Union They will do it for us. Scots Unionist come across as beggars with bowl out to london,
38

John B Dick,

Rothesay 06/04/2008 11:43:00
"Scotland will be independent when people vote for it"

Donald Dewar
39

Union is Best,

06/04/2008 11:44:42
32. ELizabeth

great post, great points. And the SNP's English MSPs are not only Anti-English, they are English (which is considerably futher along that particular spectrum if you think about it)!
40

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 06/04/2008 11:56:50
You've read the Referendum part of the poll, but no newspaper seems to want to print the other part of the poll. So here it is again.

YouGov poll was conducted from 2-4 April, sample 1,070

* Scottish Parliament constituency vote (change since 2007 in brackets)
SNP: 40% (+7)
Lab: 32% (-)
Con: 12% (-5)
Lib: 13% (-3)
Oth: 4%

* Scottish Parliament list vote (change since 2007 in brackets)
SNP: 33% (+2)
Lab: 30% (+1)
Con: 13% (-1)
Lib: 12% (+1)
Oth: 13%

* Holyrood seats projection:
SNP: 49 (+2)
Lab: 44 (-2)
Con: 15 (-2)
Lib: 15 (-1)
Oth: 6 (+3)



41

Jock 107,

06/04/2008 12:05:26
Statistics, polls - yawn
People want/don't want a referendum - yawn
I hate unionists - yawn
I hate nationalists - yawn
SNP means scottish nose pickers - yawn

Most folk don't care/ mind too much either way
42

eric,

06/04/2008 12:07:22
42 It doesnt matter if everyone took your attitude in Scotland The Englis will decide for you!
43

Bring Back Henry,

Moray 06/04/2008 12:09:21
To me the most striking thing about all the opinion polls that I have ever heard about on the subject of Scottish independence and the question of whether a referendum should be held to determine how much support there might be for that is that no one has ever asked me. Nor have I ever encountered anyone who has been asked.

It may almost conceivably be, of course, that opinion pollsters don't get to out-of-the-way country villages very often. Understandable though that may be, it is nevertheless the case that a very substantial proportion of the population of Scotland resides in small towns and villages that may seem ever so slightly off the beaten track to urbane types with clipboards. So I think we should be consulted.

As we have a government in Scotland which wishes to hold a referendum, let it get on with it after it has completed its National Conversation on the constitutional options. Inform the people. Then let the people decide. As our American friends are telling us, that is the democratic way.

In the meantime, I offer you the following cast-iron information in advance. I myself have supported independence for decades, as has my entire household, and I do not know anyone in my community who does not. If you put up a Union flag in my street, it would not stay up for very long before the protests came in.

As my family, my neighbours and I do not live in a parallel universe but merely in Scotland as it actually is rather than as it may be viewed from Westminster, we appreciate that our ambition for our country may not be realizable in one step and that the federal formula apparently now supported by former Labour first minister Henry McLeish may turn out to have majority support at present.

Devolution max with control over everything except foreign affairs and defence going to Holyrood now would seem to be an acceptable intermediate arrangement, beyond which Scotland could not go unless the people said they wished it. That is the beauty
44

John B Dick,

Rothesay 06/04/2008 12:11:42
Donald Dewar's vision for post-devolution change was not more devolution, nor independence, nor federalism: it was the reform of Westminster on the model of the Scottish Parliament.
45

Bring Back Henry,

Moray 06/04/2008 12:12:19
Devolution max with control over everything except foreign affairs and defence going to Holyrood now would seem to be an acceptable intermediate arrangement, beyond which Scotland could not go unless the people said they wished it. That is the beauty of democracy . . . and referendums. The people decide.
46

danielrober,

06/04/2008 12:17:23
As weeks turn into months the SNP are becoming more obsessed with this issue. What about the rest of Scotlands issues?

I really hope the SNP pull away from the Eurocetric trend of nationalistic odession. The increasinly professional nature of online debates is i thik misguiding Alec.S, away from REAL Scotish issues. Very Sad.
47

shivago8,

livingston 06/04/2008 12:22:55
Well done HOORAY HENRY if your snout is out of the lolly trough you are welcome to come and join us in our effort to become free again
48

subrosa,

06/04/2008 12:33:23
# 47

Where do you get that statement from? The fundamental aim of the SNP is for independence brought about through a referendum. It's the opposition parties and Westminster who are doing all the spluttering about it at the moment.

In the meantime the Scottish government are getting on with doing what is best for Scotland in a professional and realistic manner.

Just out of interest, what are the REAL Scot(t)ish issues?
49

Union is Best,

06/04/2008 13:04:03
47. Daniel - spot on. This SNP spokesman McLeish is obsessed with this issue - it is the third time he has been on about it in 2 weeks. Have the SNP nothing better to do!
50

danielrober,

06/04/2008 13:04:21
# 49 subrosa

I'm not against a referendum, i'm against a quick vote, as a country ae still at war.

Its not good timing. I'd like to see at least two years performance 'in government' before a vote is considered, not held, but considered. Other wise all we are going to hear is well, arhh, i was distarcted by the refeendum, etc, etc. Lets have some time to see policies work first.




I also think Alec.S is suffering from 'IM' complements.

When i was younger i was at a bar, hearing a friend say 'IM is great, IM is fabulous, IM is just the top'. I aked my pal if he was okay, o if he had somthing to tell us (each to their own, no problem).

He said 'No IM's great, thats all'. 'Look who is IM', i asked 'you know' he replied 'IM that signs the checks'. 'What' i said 'IM with the great tie and killer looks'.

I'd ask Alec.S to check if the person leading IM towards referendum is not a constitution speacialist, who'll have 20 years worth of work out of this vote.
51

Richard,

west lothian 06/04/2008 13:07:47
If the S.N.P. return 30 M.P's. at the next Westminster general election then independence is won!

It's that simple and looking more and more likely given the Tories lead in opinion polls down south.
52

Union is Best,

06/04/2008 13:28:09
51. Great IM story - loved it. (send me an email explaining what it means please)
53

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 06/04/2008 13:29:21
I remember a time in the early 80's when Henry Mcleish was the de facto leader of the 2nd most anti devolution region in the country....Fife.

Then someone with heavy nationalist tendencies unexpectedly joined the Labour Party and his branch, Glenrothes East, in particular.

Within 3 years Fife Labour and Henry in particular were visibly changing their position on devolution. Henry's journey is now almost complete.

In the meantime he is becoming one of the most influential voices in Scottish Politics, the voice of sanity as someone said earlier.
54

eric,

06/04/2008 13:34:04
Leaflts flying around London for mayer of london campaign ,Tartan balaclavas .save londons taxes from Jocks.and Cut jock vote english.Etc etc How do u feel about that Scottish labour unionist voters!
55

democracy,

Galashiels 06/04/2008 13:39:33
I have no problem with a UK wide debate as long as England knows that it is only the sovereign Scottish people that can have a referendum on their country's future without any interference from outside entities!
56

danielrober,

06/04/2008 13:46:15
#53 Union is Best,

IM is your boss. IM is often correct, even when he is wrong.

Alec.S has spent years fighting many people in Scotland over his point of view. Now they agree with IM. Sure they do now he is IM, the Boss.

But Scotlands is only a tiny part of the world and we can not ignor the larger world. Lets see the policies in action first. Then lets talk about referendums.
57

Richard,

west lothian 06/04/2008 13:46:17
Point is folks, we wont need a referendum if the S.N.P. return 30 M.P's to Westminster.

Game over!
58

Allan(handofgod137),

06/04/2008 13:52:35
Why not keep mentioning the fact that he's an unconvicted fellon? Yhe only story we want to see about him is the report of his trial.
59

KampungHighlander,

06/04/2008 14:02:38
The SNP under First Minister Salmond are executing their strategy brilliantly.

After the Tories win the next Westminster election by taking the majority of seats in England and 1 or 2 in Scotland. The blue haired rinse set, who are the bedrock of Unionist support in Scotland will be faced choice of being governed once again by the hated Tories or opting to support independance.

The SNP will then campaign in the Holyrood election on whether people want to be ruled by the hated Tories who have no mandate in Scotland or do they want an immeadiate referendum after the election.

After wining the first majority in Holyrood history it will be time for the referendum.

Meanwhile the 50 SNP MP's in Westminster will be waging a guerilla warfare campaign making Cameron's early days in office a nightmare, by threatening his slender majority.

Cameron will be so frustrated by the constant threat of a non confidence vote he may start to view throwing the Scots out of the Union as the prefered option.
60

obeone,

06/04/2008 14:05:34
Why doesn't Salmond just call a referendum now? Make it a vote of confidence issue and call another Scottish election if he looses. This can't go on.... unless of course they want it to go on as they would currently loose the referendum... so a few years dragging out this tedious debate might stir things up enough that they scrape a victory
61

Richard,

west lothian 06/04/2008 14:10:34

KampungHighlander,

"Meanwhile the 50 SNP MP's in Westminster will be waging a guerilla warfare campaign making Cameron's early days in office a nightmare, by threatening his slender majority".

Kampung, 50 S.N.P. M.P'S @ Westminster?

Think will you, 30 and independence is won!
62

St Andrews Jock,

ST ANDREWS 06/04/2008 14:15:08
Maybe we should not forget why McLeish had to resign as First Minister before taking what he says now as noble and honourable.
63

Bring Back Henry,

Moray 06/04/2008 15:22:05
Point taken, #63. Consider this, however. Henry McLeish may have been a little out of his depth as first minister, but to acknowledge that you have made a mistake and to resign in consequence of it is hardly dishonourable. Some people cling to office at all costs no matter what they've been caught doing. No names, no pack drill.

Don't forget that First Minister McLeish had Jack McConnell breathing down his neck all the time. That would be enough to get anyone into a fuddle.

Give the man a chance. If he has his finger on the pulse now, he is at least ahead of the party that he used to lead.
64

LABOUR WERE ELECTED BY 22% OF THE UK FACT,

06/04/2008 15:54:44
The Labour Government claimed that being returned to office for a third term for the first time ever showed the remarkable achievements of New Labour and the continued unpopularity of the Conservatives. Nevertheless, Labour's vote declined to 35.3%, the lowest share of the popular vote to form a government with a majority in the UK House of Commons in history=FACT

Labour were elected into office by 22% of the UK population=FACT What about the 78% who did not vote Labour.

Okay so not every one bothered to vote, well that leaves around 65% of people who did vote not having a voice. This is not right.
65

antifa,

06/04/2008 16:11:13
65 - they do have a voice, their representatives sit in Parliament. If the UK went for proportional representation then we'd have a Labour-Lib Dem govt. which I suspect wouldn't please you much either.

And you don't need to put FACT after every FACT that you cite.
66

antifa,

06/04/2008 16:14:08
BTW, McLeish is almost certainly speaking for the silent majority here - silent in the sense that they don't sound off on message boards like this.

Personally though, I can't see the point of maintaining any kind of union? It's pretty clear that UK foreign policy mess-ups are one of the main attractions of independence.
67

ptdoug,

06/04/2008 17:31:18
BREAKING>>>>>

Welsh and N.I. devolved administrations indicate support for John Swinneys call for adjudication of the current funding dispute by the Joint Ministerial Committee set up to deal with disputes between the devolved Governments and Westminster.

A Northern Irish government spokesman said, "Where Scotland is today, with this serious funding dispute, we in Northern Ireland may find ourselves tomorrow".

A Welsh Assembly source said they were watching events with concern and called for a united stance by the three devolved administrations to defend funding levels and to prevent partisan manipulation of U.K. treasury resources for party political gain by whichever party finds itself in control at Westminster.
68

Media 1,

cape town 06/04/2008 17:38:44
I believe that Scotland's future must be decided by the people.
I want a YES or NO referendum on independence, but was Salmond not recently attempting to avoid a YES/NO scenario?
69

Shug the Dug,

Edinburgh 06/04/2008 17:46:41
I am English and vote SNP after mature political reflection. Independence is attractive because self-determination is at the centre of democracy. I have supported the SNP for 32 years and still find them to be the closest to social democracy in practice. I am most certainly not the only English-born citizen of Scotland who thinks this way and I am certainly not the only disenchanted, disaffected socialist who has found their beliefs best represented by the SNP. Incidentally, it is the SNP national conversation that offers a completely open debate on Scotland's political future. Before throwing accusations based on crude bias you owe it to yourselves to remind yourselves just which forum - the national conversation or the review being set up by the unholy alliance of unionists that is the Westminster commanded parties - offers the widest terms of reference and has done so long before Brown's Bullies, that other party I can never find in Scotland, and the Lib Dems still firmly indecisive on their fence. Now, as for our Government being fit to govern: I shall consider my relatives in England suffering the highest prescription charges in these isles; I shall think of my son free of the burden of graduate endowment; and I shall enjoy crossing Scotland's bridges unfettered by exorbitant tolls. How it must irk the second stringers of the major parties, their MSPs, to be constantly out-managed, out-governed, out-debated, out-led, out-thought, by SNP MSPs and ministers who can stand alongside world politicians and leaders and be seen to be fit for task. In that vein, imagine how much better, capable and professional the three other major parties would be within an independent Scotland if their 1st-string politicians returned to take their place. Seems to me that it could only benefit the currently Westminster dominated parties to have an independent Scotland. Ironic that in giving the country back to the people we might also be seen to actually strengthen our politica
70

Robert Burns,

Ocean Beach (San Diego), California, U.S.A. 06/04/2008 17:52:40
In the long time that I've not been receiving my E-paper, I'm quite impressed with the evolution of this controversy to where 65% of Scots seek an independence referendum vote within 2 years and Mr. McLeish seeks a federal country wherein Scotland and Wales would be semi-autonomous parts of the UK when it came to defence and foreign affairs. I've advocated essentially that or a result where the several countries would be autonomous yet be in a de facto federalism via treaties. To me, there has been great progress!
71

European Scot,

06/04/2008 18:24:23
Wendy Alexander in her recent screech to the 'partly' faithful at Aviemore stated the following : " I will lead by rebuilding Scottish Labour as a campaigning force...."
Scottish Labour ? When did that come about ? If it only it were.
Now if Henry McLeish and Jack McConnell could set about getting on with forming a real Scottish Labour party, one that supported an Independent Scotland, then life could become much more interesting for many Labour supporters.
They are both still high profile figures, and have the experience and all the necessary administrative connections, to make it happen.
Of course getting hold of Jack McConnell might be a problem, what with him going to Malawi. The powers that be in Westminster, don't seem to want him taking part in any further political activities, back home.
A truly Scottish Labour party, given a couple of years to get its act together, would attract a huge number of traditional Labour voters, many who are dissatisfied with Wendy and co. and others who also happen to support an Independent Scotland.
What a scenario, imagine Gordon Brown's constituency, with himself facing a challenge from a Scottish Labour candidate.
A split vote there, and it's bye bye Gordon.
A Scottish Labour party would certainly speed up the process of achieving Independence, and they would have plenty of seats in a future Scottish parliament.
Henry McLeish and Jack McConnell could join Alex Salmond, and go down in Scottish history as the founding fathers of an Independent Scotland.
Not a bad little epitaph for each of them.
Ah well, it is Sunday evening, it is only speculation.
Back to the dishes.
72

rorie,

alloa 06/04/2008 18:28:13
why don't we have a referendum to see if we can have a referendum?
73

Media 1,

cape town 06/04/2008 18:53:57
The problem with the SNP is this; Like any Freedom Fighting organisation, they are not equipped with the political acumen to run a nation. They are also fanatical, thus their agenda is distorted and usually misplaced. Blinded folded nationalism is prefered over reason, which is ofcourse very dangerous.
The other problem I see, is that if the referendum ends with a NO to independence, Scotland COULD be thrust into a very pracarious position, which could escalate into something more sinister, because I just cant see the SNP EVER accepting a NO vote.
74

Ciderman 542000,

Forres 06/04/2008 19:01:50
The Spook in Leith # 73

Your pathetic attention seeking knows no limits. You are Millport-boy; Millport is not part of Iceland. If continental drift goes into reverse, in 20 - 30 million years, then Millport might be part of Iceland. Until then dream on Millport-boy.

Why is it the SNP is so attractive to so many disfunctional odd-bods? Salmond must be delighted at your endorsement "Im Icelandic and i also vote the SNP, we are the party."
75

Ciderman 542000,

Forres 06/04/2008 19:14:23
Media 1 # 76

None of these SNP types have enough conviction in their cause to become "freedom fighters." They are all spineless armchair warriors. The pinnacle of their militancy is to blame "The Union" for all their pathetic gripes and paint slogans on bridges.
Thankfully, no, you can forget any ideas of the SNP carrying out any ANC type paramilitary actions.
76

European Scot,

06/04/2008 19:21:08
76 Media 1

A Freedom Fighting organisation where did this come from ?
Scotland only has democratic political parties serving its electorate.
You seem to be operating in a world imagined, certainly no connection with the real version.
The SNP and Alex Salmond seem to be getting plenty of approval from the Scottish people the way they are handling government, and so appear to be very well "equipped with the political acumen to run a nation."
Fanatical, no certainly not. Your posts, however, might earn that comment.
As for a no vote, well that is what it is. a no vote. If that were to be the majority decision then so be it.
Just getting the opportunity to cast a vote in a referendum would be a healthy start.
Your Unionist parties have all joined forces to prevent one.
That's not exactly democratic.

77

Media 1,

cape town 06/04/2008 19:21:34
#78 Ciderman

Do you think that a NO referendum would be accepted by the SNP? What would happen? Would they just get on with it?
Freedom Fighters tend to fight for freedom till the end. But then again, Scotland is already very free, so there is a difference I guess.
78

Media 1,

cape town 06/04/2008 19:25:54
European Scot

Does Alex Salmond support a straight forward YES or NO referendum.
79

Ciderman 542000,

Forres 06/04/2008 19:38:59
Media 1 # 80

No they wouldn't accept a no vote, but why would they? The SNP would not be paying the costs of their referendum. Just abusing the hospitality of the British people to the Nth degree, which is their forte.
The cause of Scottish independence is not worth any loss of life, especially that of any SNP member. To be honest they have not asked that lives be sacrificed in what is basically a lifestyle choice for a few fanatics. The majority of the Scottish population would not benefit in any perceptible way from living in an independent Scotland. No SNP MSP, activist or supporter can tell you what the benefits of independence might be, except the "right to make our own mistakes." Wow!
80

Media 1,

cape town 06/04/2008 19:46:50
Ciderman

Good response, makes sense! I still maintain that a NO to a referendum vote would result in some sort of SNP fanatical response. NOT by the party, just some of the followers. I just find the SNP to be somewhat militant. And there is definately a sense of intimidation in Scotland with regard to the SNP. Think of the average get together in the pub and imagine 3 lads speaking about Scotland and their passion for the SNP. If they turned to the two lads next to them and asked them what they thought, you almost see the two lads agreeing regardless if they didnt, because slagging of the SNP is more dangerous than slagging off other parties. Supporting independence is less trouble than publically disagreeing with independence. Or at least that is the atmosphere I sometimes find when I am there.
People can be quite vehement in their hatred of England and the union and that seems to be more acceptable than being vehemently against independence.
81

European Scot,

06/04/2008 19:55:06
Media 1

I believe that Alex Salmond originally wanted a simple yes or no.
Along the lines of do the Scottish people support Scotland withdrawing from the current constitutional arrangements, yes or no.
I'll stand corrected on the exact wording.
To try and encourage the Unionist parties to take part in a referendum, he has now offered the possibility of a third question.
82

Ciderman 542000,

Forres 06/04/2008 19:58:39
Media 1 # 83

I can't say I have ever found SNP activists intimidating. You don't normally find them drinking in pubs, you will usually find them trawling the pubs at weekends collecting pennies from drunks. They usually have have a few metal badges about their blazers lapels.
The most vehement hatred of the English is reserved for webpages like these, I don't think they can handle the face to face aggression and honesty that behaviour of that nature requires. Look at Salmond. His aggression is basically ritualistic posturing for the cameras within the chamber of the Holyrood arena. Where he, as FM, can say what he wants and his political opponents are prevented from replying by the protocols. He deploys the tactics of the sneering bully there, which is what he is.
83

Ciderman 542000,,

Forres 06/04/2008 20:04:43
The hysteria surrounding global warming is a crock. The idea that human beings are destroying the planet with BBQs and hair spray is stupid and silly...and I refuse to participate in this nonsense. This is a 'how-to' guide on how to enjoy more of the wonderful resources the Earth has to offer. I encourage my readers to stop feeling guilty if they choose NOT to recycle. Burn those fossil fuels. Get out and drive your SUV...And by all means, leave the farting cows alone
84

Ciderman 542000,,

Forres 06/04/2008 20:06:09
The word far t is just one of many different terms used to describe the release of gasses from the human body. Other popular names for farts or farting include: gassers, stinkers, air biscuits, bombers, barking spiders, rotten eggs, and wet ones. You can pass gas, break wind, blast, beef, poof, rip one, let one fly, step on a duck, and cut the cheese.

Farts can be stinky, wet, loud, or silent but deadly. Pee-eeew!!!

Did you know? i am ciderman .
85

Ciderman 542000,,

Forres 06/04/2008 20:08:10
On the average, a healthy person far ts 16 times a day.
Hey guys, don't be fooled by girls who tell you that they never fa rt. Everyone far ts, including girls. In fact, females fa rt just as much as males.
Many animals far t too. Cats, dogs, and cows. Elephants fa rt the most.
People far t the most in their sleep.
Far ts that contain a large amount of methane & hydrogen can be flammable.
86

Ciderman 542000,,

Forres 06/04/2008 20:10:27
I Far t about 167 times per day and the smell is putrefying. It put my dear old partner to sleep. He died of my smell.
87

Ciderman 542000,,

Forres 06/04/2008 20:12:08
Media 1 do not take any note of my ramblings. I far t to much but there again smell is attracted to smell.
88

Conan the Librarian™,

06/04/2008 20:17:08
Ciderman and Media 1.Would you like a room?
89

GalacticCannibal.,

North Lanark 06/04/2008 20:18:30
Sniff sniff , who far ted?
90

GalacticCannibal.,

South Lanark 06/04/2008 20:22:48
Ciderman dude, you stink
91

GalacticCannibal.,

South Lanark,Obama county 06/04/2008 20:26:40
Ciderman dude, you smelly perve rt.