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Labour vows to block 'unacceptable' independence referendum question



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Published Date:
25 May 2008
LABOUR has issued a stern message that it will block the SNP's plans for an independence referendum, after one of its senior figures ruled out supporting the proposed bill.
Enterprise spokesman Iain Gray told a conference last week that the wording of the question which Alex Salmond wants to put to Scots was "unacceptable" to Labour.

Gray also declared that even if the parties did agree on the wording, Labour would
also demand a second referendum to rubber-stamp the first.

His comments follow Wendy Alexander's controversial decision to back a referendum last month, when she told Salmond to "bring it on".

Subsequently, she declared that her support did not offer a "blank cheque" to the SNP, reserving Labour's right to challenge the wording of the referendum question.

Speaking at a conference on devolution, Gray said Labour's position was clear. "We would not veto it out of hand, (but] the question contained in the draft referendum bill is not acceptable to us."

Under the SNP's plans, Scots would be asked to agree or disagree as to whether "the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the government of a United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".

Labour claims the wording is too complex and that, for such an important issue, the question should be far more blunt.

Gray revealed the wording of the question Labour would be campaigning for – "Do you wish that Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom: yes or no?" He also revealed that even then, if the answer was 'no', Labour would very likely demand that another referendum would be required, pointing out that

should the SNP win the first referendum, that would trigger detailed negotiations with the UK Government over the separation of resources.

He said: "It is an indicative referendum and, therefore, it would still depend on negotiations with the United Kingdom Government. That would almost certainly require a second referendum."

Gray's claim that two referendums are required is backed by the Constitution Unit of the University College London, the foremost body in Britain on constitutional affairs.

However, in a speech last week, the director of the unit, Professor Robert Hazell, issued a stinging attack on Scottish Labour leader Alexander for having raised the prospect of supporting a referendum.

He said: "For the first time since devolution began, I can see it threatening the Union. But the threat comes not so much from the SNP but from clumsy defence by Unionists in the Labour party."

Hazell also criticised the Prime Minister's plans to put forward a "statement of values" that will sum up Britain.

"Gordon Brown's planned consultation on a British statement of values risks attracting derision and of prejudicing the Government's more important project of developing a British bill of rights," he said.

Meanwhile, Alexander was coming under further pressure at Holyrood amid claims that one of her senior aides, Mike Elrick, is to quit. He is believed to be unhappy at the way the referendum strategy was announced.



The full article contains 506 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Senga Jean,

25/05/2008 00:27:06
Scotland deserves better than this cabal of Tory/Labour/Libdem Unionist conmen. The McCrone report shows how we were lied to. The Grangemouth dispute confirms the extent of Scotland's subsidy to the UK. AND still we are ripped off. We produce all this oil and I have to pay 128 pence per litre for diesel. The highest price in the West!. Such charity is simple madness.
2

Jimmy the Pie,

25/05/2008 00:38:07
Iain Gray will soon not be able to demand bugjer all.

He'll be looking for a new gravy train along with his fellow New labour clowns.

Roll on the day
3

democrate,

central Scotland 25/05/2008 00:46:37
the wording is not at all complex; the complex bit comes from figuring out how you can deny a referendum, then demand one, and as an opposition party still manage to rig the wording so that every failure to vote can count as against the proposal; simple really.
4

Jimmy the Pie,

25/05/2008 00:58:18
New Labour Sleaze will soon be a thing of the past.

Just watch the 'scorched earth policy' as Comrade Broon and his corrupt socialist comrades get booted out.

From the Times.
The health minister Ann Keen is this weekend revealed to have insured her 70-year-old husband’s life for £430,000 – and to have claimed the premiums on parliamentary expenses.

Filling their boots before the door slams shut!

Scumbags every one
5

Steve,

Bo'ness 25/05/2008 01:03:31
This shows Labour up for the cheap con men they are. They'll only back a referendum if they can have their loaded question, followed by another loaded question if the first one goes against them.
Salmond should tell them to shove it, and keep the issue burning until such a time as he has a majority. It'll surely come.
6

livilion,

livingston 25/05/2008 01:04:03
PML, thanks Mr Gray for that.
Ferr looking forward to Labour's Scottish 'leader' on this afternoon's Politics Show explaining this one.
Does Alex Salmond have someone working for him in Labour central office?
7

Sanny,

25/05/2008 01:04:43
If Scotland demands her independence then the Union is over. No amount of obfuscation by the Unionist parties can set aside the will of the people.

If (When) a referendum result is in favour of Independence and a Westminster Government tries to overrule the will of the people, then Westminster will find itself on a collision course with The Council of Europe, the EU and United Nations. All the Unionist Party’ in Westminster knows this. The present bluster is simply an attempt to confuse the issue in the minds of the Electorate.

I strongly recommend every Scot to read the Scottish-UN Committee Papers and understand the truth of how the devolved parliament came into being. In particular the part played by the Council of Europe!!
8

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/05/2008 01:10:28
Bit of a gray area this. Where's Wendy?
9

ptdoug,

25/05/2008 01:20:24
They can have 3 referendums if they like.

We will beat them 3 times.

Are they masochists or what?
10

ptdoug,

25/05/2008 01:28:53
Gray's claim that two referendums are required is backed by the Constitution Unit of the University College London, the foremost body in Britain on constitutional affairs.

However, in a speech last week, the director of the unit, Professor Robert Hazell, issued a stinging attack on Scottish Labour leader Alexander for having raised the prospect of supporting a referendum.

He said: "For the first time since devolution began, I can see it threatening the Union. But the threat comes not so much from the SNP but from clumsy defence by Unionists in the Labour party."

It's clear from his comments that professor Hazell is a card carrying, screaming Unionist... and should not be taken seriously when commenting on SCOTTISH constitutional issues.

EDDIE.. where in gods name do you find these people?
11

ptdoug,

25/05/2008 01:38:06
So Labour want to hold a referendum on Scottish Independence... but will block the actual word "independence" from the referendum question ????

Typical slippery snake dishonesty from "Scottish" Labour.

And one more reason to bury them once and for all at the next election.
12

ptdoug,

25/05/2008 01:39:18
And that is exactly what we plan to do.
13

ptdoug,

25/05/2008 01:40:29
Trough guzzling, careerist traitors that they are.
14

Edward,

25/05/2008 02:08:10
Iain Gray is a joke, realy is, he was pathetic during a Newsnight interview, he was more interested in looking for the exit door in case the questions became too difficult.
He is now spouting ' the wording of the question which Alex Salmond wants to put to Scots was "unacceptable" to Labour' Really Iain, and who the hell do you think you and your bunch of idiots are?
Then 'also declared that even if the parties did agree on the wording, Labour would also demand a second referendum to rubber-stamp the first'
Spoken like an idiotic weasel that he is!
He demands this that and everything else, obviously has forgotten he isnt in power and typically wants to make a complet mess of the whole thing by having a second referendum in case the first is not to there likeing
One word for Iain - TOUGH!
15

Cyber Nat,

Edinborg 25/05/2008 02:20:25
My God! Iain Gray's on the case. How devastating for the cause of independence. The dependinistas will sleep soundly in their beds. I think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICmOw8afhHk
16

Cyber Nat,

25/05/2008 02:23:48
Hang on a minute. He wants a referendum on a question that is actually legally incompetent followed by another referendum if he doesn't like the answer and also wants a referendum on the Calman Commission. And this comes after two devolution referendums by the Labour party and one on the Common Market in the 1970's.

What is this? The Neverwendyrendum?
17

mesmiths,

25/05/2008 03:05:00
Nice try Eddie- trying to get labour out of this hole- Barnes.
Subsequently, she (ALEXANDER) declared that her support did not offer a "blank cheque" to the SNP, reserving Labour's right to challenge the wording of the referendum question. NORMALLY REFFERED TO, BY JOURNOS, AS U-TURN TYPE THINGYS.

Speaking at a conference on devolution, Iain Gray said Labour's position was clear...........................
......................................................
......................................................
...........................ly a load of nonesense and spin.
18

DAH,

Conwy 25/05/2008 03:10:29
I can see the logic in asking for a second referendum if the SNP question is asked:

"Whether the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".

There is a sense in saying that the results of the negotiation should be put before the electorate.

But if the question that Mr Gray wants is asked:

"Do you wish that Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom: yes or no?"

Then the answer will be unequivocal, there is no sense in asking the same question again.


19

ptdoug,

25/05/2008 03:32:09
I may be wrong... but isn't it SNP policy to have a second referendum?
20

Wee Fifer,

25/05/2008 03:55:22
Why can't they just have one line on it and stick to it? Is Wendy's position still secure then, and does this represent 'fleshing out' of policy rather than a confused Uturn?
So many questions...
21

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

25/05/2008 04:49:39
My god the Snp bores have been out in force last night.

Don't they have a life?

I guess not.

Up to 200000 people dead in Burma.

Up to 60000 dead in China.

And here they are working themselves into a frenzy about the wording of a question (on a vote they will undoubtedly lose anyway).

It would be laughable if it was not so sad.
22

Mikey,

25/05/2008 05:59:05
21, there;s always one eejit. Now away ye go and attend tae yer ain country....

As regards referenda, they're not needed at all. Has everyone forgot about 30 seats at Westminster? If Scots can elect 30 SnP members at the next Westmonster election (and it's not beyond the realms of possibility,) then it's all over! Every onanist party has agreed that if a majority of seats in Scotland go to the SNP, then independence is achieved!

They wouldn't be liars, would they?
23

Guga II,

Rockall 25/05/2008 06:39:33
#1 Senga Jean.

I see you're still getting the cheap stuff. We're currently paying £1-37.9 a litre.

Yes. we were lied to, and are still being lied to, and will continue to be lied to; aided and abetted by people like Eddie Barnes who continue to push the Unionist barrow rather than doing their job and investigating and publishing facts.

#10 ptdoug.

You asked where does Eddie Barnes find these people. That's easy, he chases around looking for any and all Unionists that support his own Unionist ideology. No investigative journalism for this man; otherwise he might come across facts (like the McCrone report) which support the cause of independence, and that would never do. He's not a journalist, he's a card carrying New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party propagandist.

As for the rest of the Unionists, they will try every dirty, underhand trick in the book to prevent Scotland becoming independent, including lying and cheating. Scotland is too valuable a source of money to subsidise the English, and they will try to hang on to us for as long as they can steal money from us.
24

donald,

glasgow 25/05/2008 07:37:12
Gray in the grip of old mental illness: obsessive Separatismism
25

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

25/05/2008 07:53:10
#22 what a thicko.

WestMonster. hilarious.
26

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

25/05/2008 08:00:05
The Natz should be allowed to dictate what the question should be. It is only fair.

How about:

DO YOU WANT INDEPENDENCE?

YES OR YES?
27

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 08:02:07
Labour MSPs should remember that the Scots are quite capable of understanding the SNP question.
Labour MSPs seemingly are talking from the perspective of people who were incapable of understanding the fairly simple rules on political donations.
28

Soosider,

Glasgow 25/05/2008 08:21:33
Well that has cleared that up then. We are all absolutely clear what labours position is. (for this week)
29

Guga II,

Rockall 25/05/2008 08:27:12
#28. You mean for today?
30

BIG EYE,

Paisley 25/05/2008 09:02:37
You guys must be Labour supporters,clearly what we are talking about here is "at the time of asking"
31

Nikostratos,

25/05/2008 09:10:35
#23 Guga II,Rockall

Guga you are a vile racist pig of the worst sort and that's why you are at 'HOME' with the nationalists.

But apart form that your homily on the 'Unionists' is indeed a accurate description on waht the conservative party will do 'IF' they sweep into westminster with an overall majority.

dave said

"The simple truth is that the Union between England and Scotland is under attack as never before," he said. "I will do anything and everything to keep our two countries as one."

"But if it should ever come to a choice between constitutional perfection and the preservation of our nation, I know my choice."

http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2295052.0.Cameron_targets_Nationalists_in_battle_to_safeguard_the_Union.php


Best of luck with Alexs new best friends........", they will try every dirty, underhand trick in the book"

and more Guga and more
32

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 25/05/2008 09:11:40
Independence from WHOM exactly? Brown, Darling and all the other Scottish Labour MPs who've screwed England for the last 11 years. Come the glorious day you'll be having 'em all back
33

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 09:21:31
Labour wont even be in power by the time the referendum is put to the voters so all of this is just irrelevant. It will be a question as to how the Tories under Cameron view the Union will they see the old empirical UK or will they see an opertunity to stay in power for decades within a new UK without a Labour power base to contend with?? will they finally become the little Englanders I always thought they were or will they try and stem the tide and delay the inevitable a wee bit longer?? Its going to be an interesting time.
34

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 09:25:04
33

Fair point where will all of the so called "Scot" unionists want to hang their hats?? I do hope they choose to remain within the new union.
35

eric,

25/05/2008 09:29:32
Even on the way out labour still try to sit on what the scottish people want accept defeat and push off now.
36

Melly,

Sussex 25/05/2008 09:38:12
"Labour claim the wording is too complex - " well no surprise there then.
37

Breezy,

Argyll 25/05/2008 09:49:33
Well you can have my answer right now Ian, ' Do I wish that Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom ? '

No.

Now is my answer too complex for you ?

38

MoClana,

25/05/2008 09:54:08
eh?....Ian gray states the proposed wording or the SNP referendum is too complex ....' do you believe Scotland should enter in negotiations with the UK goverment to become an independent state'.

He then goes on to say Labour will need to rubber stamp a second bill becuase He said: "It is an indicative referendum and, therefore, it would still depend on negotiations with the United Kingdom Government'

Is that not what the SNP's propssed question is actually asking?

In any event Labour will be gone come this time and will not be able to re-invent the word democracy or independence to suit their own corrupt agenda.
39

Publius,

Girvan 25/05/2008 10:11:24
#1 Senga Jean
#23 Guga II

The last I heard Norway had the highest petrol prices in western Europe. The more oil you've got the more you pay for petrol!
40

Publius,

Girvan 25/05/2008 10:17:53
It doesn't matter what Iain Gray or anyone else in Scottish Labour thinks. The initiative is now with the SNP at Holyrood and with the Tories at Westminster.
There are three elections on the horizon - UK general election, Scottish referendum, Scottish election. The order is suggestive. Almost certainly the Tories will win the UK general election. If the Tories get less than, say, 20 per cent of the vote in Scotland, the SNP can attack them as anti-Scottish and pick arguments with Westminster. If the Tories get more than 20 per cent, the SNP will be on more difficult ground. They won't get independence by labelling a sizeable number of Scots anti-Scottish and attacking the government they voted for.
41

Ken S.,

Reading 25/05/2008 10:24:00
34 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,
"..how the Tories under Cameron view the Union.."

Was this not answered by Cameron at Ayr?

"I would be a prime minister who acts on the voice of the Scottish people, and will work tirelessly for consent and consensus so we strengthen the Union."

"Mr Cameron also said he was prepared to compromise over the Barnett Formula, the controversial rule which allocates extra spending to Scotland, and the voting rights of Scottish MPs, to protect the Union."

conservatimehome.com:
"David Cameron said that as Prime Minister he would not frustrate SNP initiatives in Holyrood but he would never risk the Union.
Although he said that a review of the Barnett formula for the distribution of public funds across the UK was essential he would not support a reform that endangered English-Scottish relations."

The danger is that, in bending over backwards to placate and appease Scotland, he will lose England. The eminently able Mr Salmond wins either way!


Enough of all this inconsequential stuff, I say!

A much more important topic:
a) Would an independent Scotland enter Eurovision?
b) If so, what theme would infuse its song entries?
c) For which other nation would Scottish voters cast their douze points? and
d) how many votes would be likely for England's entry?
42

pehman,

sussex 25/05/2008 10:38:03

So that's it then, grey is now in charge of slab policy.

Why was there no announcement of wendy's departure ?
43

psycho,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 10:51:39
Labour are anti-Life and are finished as a political force in this country.The anti -Scottish lobby will continue to undermine Gordon Brown and there is no credible alternative candidate for Prime Minister:Wendy has destroyed the party in Scotland.David Cameron gloats -accepted by default rather than merit- and the Labour party disintegrates by the day.So Be it !
44

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 10:52:11
42 Ken S
You've hit upon the crux of the problem. An independent Scotland would have to take part in the Eurovision Song Contest. Once people realise this an independence referendum is bound to return a huge majority voting no.
45

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 25/05/2008 11:17:07
It looks increasingly likely that Scottish votes will not decide the next election. The swing to the Tories in England has the appearance of being on a huge scale. I'd like to see Scotland send as many SNP MPs back to Westminster as we can, so that when Cameron stands at the dispatch box he's reminded that his authority stops at the border.

As for Labour, their tactic of accusing the SNP of 'grudge and grievance' politics - a theme constantly spread across the Scotsman - has a limited shelf life. How will the electorate in Scotland react to being told the SNP are 'picking fights' with a Tory government at Westminster? I suspect they'll be more than glad.

We need to know if the Calman Commission is really going to deliver, or - if as reported in the press - it plans also to deprive Scotland of current powers. With the prospect of a Tory government looming ever larger, we might be forgiven for taking as many powers as we possibly can. Not to do so would leave Scotland vulnerable to the ravages of a Tory government.
46

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 25/05/2008 11:32:57
" Independent State "? Correction;

"Independent country".
47

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 25/05/2008 11:45:41
21 One of the largest problems in Western society generally, is that too many people are fixated on what is going on in countries that are hundreds or thousands of miles away, whilst not tending their own back yard, the more people that look after their own immediate situation, family, friends, and perhaps concerns for the welfare of their own country are to be praised, not ridiculed. The maintenance of an expensive union is no longer an option.
The organisation of independent and balanced ways of spreading the wealth so we can enjoy our country as freemen and women with less redtape is the goal.
48

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 11:46:34
#40 Norway's petrol prices are about the same as the UK but you have to remember that take home pay is at least 50% higher than here.
49

Publius,

Girvan 25/05/2008 11:58:20
#48 Ard Righ
You are more or less right. But the fixation with the far off is stronger in the UK than other states. Tony Blair coined the term 'liberal interventionism' - and then sent British troops to at least half a dozen countries including Iraq and Afghanistan. Gordon Brown finds time to lecture the governments of Burma and Afghanistan. I sometimes think he sees himself as a latterday David Livingstone. At any one time several cabinet ministers are outside the country altogether.
The decision to build two aircraft carriers is of a piece. The only use for aircraft carriers is in conventional war thousands of miles from a friendly state. The days of empire are gone and it is lunacy to contemplate war on the other side of the world. The money would be much better spent on destroyers, frigates, submarines and land-based aircraft to protect our home islands.
50

Publius,

Girvan 25/05/2008 12:00:50
P.S. Brown also lectures the government of Zimbabwe. Mugabe's government is appalling, but there is nothing that the UK can - or should - do about it.
51

Rasco,

Inverness 25/05/2008 12:01:11
London threat to cut 30bn from Scots budget in Times today,Prof Midwinter is at it again,a good read for everyone SNP breaking rules on the SFT he say's.
52

Jimbo2,

25/05/2008 12:26:54
Iain Gray did not join the Labour Party because he is primarily a unionist. Iain Gray and his kind joined the Labour Party because they accept politicians of a lower standard. They do so in Scotland because of the 'monkey with the red rosette' syndrome prevalent amongst many Labour voters.

If the SNP accepted politicians of the standard we now have in the Labour Party in Scotland, the likes of Gray, Kerr, Curran and Baillie, would be shouting from the rooftops for independence. They simply follow any Party line purely on the grounds of self preservation.
53

MtnKat,

25/05/2008 12:54:20
3 democrate
Regarding your raising the specter of those who do not vote, for whatever reason.........deceased, illness, etc. counting as a vote against, that should be changed forthwith.
It is my understanding that less than 40% of those eligible to vote do so in the American elections. Is it Australia that fines those who do not vote? There is some validity in that.

26 alphabet soup
I know how I would vote on that question. What lies ahead for the SNP is a succinct answer to all of the questions that the scaremongering has raised.
A confederation of the nations on this island for the purpose of defense and other common interests only makes sense. However, as an independent country, we would raise our own revenues and order our own affairs, sending only our fair share for those items which we would also have a voice in deciding upon,to London. The opposite of the current setup in which all monies go to the mental midgets to then disburse as they see fit and return to us a pittance.
One item that seems to fly under radar is that all VAT collected here would stay here. Take a look around you June-September, when we are inundated with tourists. Taken together with the VAT we all pay daily, this silly arguement that we would be dependent upon a dwindling resource should receive the derision it so richly deserves.

54

Calum10,

25/05/2008 12:57:36
All this proves is that Labour are still in denial and find it impossible to to accept the verdict of the Scottish electorate.

Labour cannot accept they were beaten in 2007.

Labour cannot accept that this SNP government is popular with the Scottish people.

Labour will not accept the verdict on a referendum on Scottish independence with the demand for a second referendum if they lose.

If Labour will not listen to the Scottish voter then they will be punished every time at the polling booth.

55

roughrider,

Glasgow 25/05/2008 13:07:51
The ever useless Iain Grey in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04AQe5AXxnU



Who in their right mind votes for this clown?
LMAO.

56

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 13:30:53
I don't see what the problem is with a second referendum. If a yes vote in the first merely instigates negotiations then the people should have a right to confirm or reject any settlement on the outcome of the negotiations.
57

Buck Rogers,

in the 25th Century 25/05/2008 13:30:56
I thought Ian Gray lost his seat many, many years ago. How did he manage to get back? Is he a list MSP or did some group of loonies actually vote him in again?

Whatever the answer, Labour's farcical hypocrysy is old news and this is all becoming rather boring. Presumably their was no decent political news this week, which speaks volumes for the Tory conference as well as the Scotsman's editorial team on the politics desk!
58

Rodster,

Glasgow 25/05/2008 13:45:58
Last May no referendum whatsoever , to now wanting at least 2 .

You couldn't make it up
Easy solution Ian just let Wee Dougie organise the election along with Robert Mugabe and you can get the result you want .
59

chicmac,

Angus 25/05/2008 13:53:30
Whether the recent alleged support for a referendum by Scottish Labour
was in fact a ruse concocted between Westminster and Wendy and the SLAB(read 'lost') boys which backfired or whether it was a genuine pang of democratic conscience on behalf of Scottish Labour will remain moot until it is clear whether Wendy stays or goes.

However, even if we were generous enough to assume the latter, that new
found backbone did not even last long enough for the infamous shiver
to get out of it's hibernation cave.

The other leaked story, that Brown was planning his own referendum in secret all along, i.e. the man who called off a general election when he was still in the lead in the polls, I'm afraid I find laughable.

Any hope that Scottish Labour will honour their pledge to support the referendum Bill in 2010 is, I'm afraid, a foolhardy one.

Pressure should therefore be kept on the UK government to behave in a democratic manner and allow the people of Scotland the same priviledge and right accorded routinely around the World in recent decades.

Even hitherto subjects of totalitarian regimes (e.g.s Ukraine, East Timor) or even regions which have never been a separate state at all e.g. Quebec, have held independence referendums.

Since the War, in ADDITION to the re-emergence of many former colonies, around 30 new states have come into existence and in most cases a referendum has figured in the secession at some point.


Therefore the refusal of the British Government in the past to allow or recognise a referendum is highly unusual. A shameful chapter in the history of democracy and is in fact illegal since the UK is a signatory to the UN legislation enshrined in the ICCPR.

So help keep up the pressure for a referendum by signing the petition at

gopetition.com/petit

ions/let-scotland-de

cide
60

Jock's Away,

africa 25/05/2008 14:30:13
As alway look to the money trail. Iain Grey would prefer to secure his at the expense of Scotland.
It is no longer a question of union, rather a question of WHICH union? A sovereign state within the European Union or a provincial devolved region within the United Kingdom. Westminister laws and directives are NOW originating from Strasbourg & Brussels. So WHY exactly does Scotland need the middle man again?
A referendum is not for any particular political party, but for Scotland, her citizens and their children, a decision far to important to leave to the paid party people in Westminister or Holyrood.
61

JoeMcT,

BlairsFantasyIsland 25/05/2008 14:34:39
"...Gray said Labour's position was clear. "We would not veto it out of hand,...."

Gee, Iain, so New Labour don't entirely dismiss Democracy in Scotland then? Presumably that depends on the outcome of any vote being to your liking?

Oh, and well done wheeling out the staunch pro-Unionist Prof HazellNUT as some sort of expert to back Labours' Unionist views.

Aye, Nuts oh -o HazellNUTS.

62

Al Ford,

Insch 25/05/2008 14:44:54
Fascinating though it may be to go on trying to keep track of the Labour Party's views on the question of a referendum on Scottish independence, I think that it is becoming clear, as has been remarked above, that their attitude is unlikely to matter very much in 2010, when the UK will probably have a Tory government and the SNP will probably be on the brink of winning a majority in the Scottish Parliament in the following year.

As for Mr Gray's remark about the Scottish Government's proposed referendum question, I am struggling to discern what might conceivably be perceived to be unacceptable about it by any fair-minded independent observer:
"Should the Scottish Government negotiate a settlement with the government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state?"

Judging by their performance so far, perhaps the next Scottish Labour contribution to the constitutional debate can be expected to be a suggestion that there should be a referendum to determine what the independence-referendum question should be. I am afraid, however, that I feel that it is only fair to warn you that I think that I would have to see the proposed questions for the pre-referendum referendum before I could let you know whether such a referendum might be acceptable to me.

As for a post-referendum referendum, well there again, you see, it would depend on the question or questions and on the wording of it or them. So all of that would have to be gone into as well, if one were to be consistent. On the other hand, maybe we could just save ourselves all that bother and simply let the SNP government get on with it. They seem to know what they are doing, and it is as plain as the nose on Mr Gray's face that they enjoy the trust and confidence of the people of Scotland, which is more than can be said for Scottish Labour.
63

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 25/05/2008 15:02:20
50
Publius,
Girvan 25/05/2008 11:58:20

I wasn't considering it from a military view point, yet I agree, a strong navy has always been the mainstay of a successful island. To protect our fishing grounds, and oil as an independent Scotland, Independent of the EU will give us distinct advantages.
64

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 25/05/2008 15:12:36
50 Very unfortunately, most countries around the world base the success of another country, by it's engagement in war rather than the outcome of war, seen as financial prowess, the economics as a singular gauge. A very narrow out look. All civilisations have a pattern, they become overtly greedy and then crash. The thing is to look after what you have and invest in it, to be a good trading port.
Scotlands sea ways are dead (The english Alien Navigation act of 1714) and demand reinitialising once again to be the very successful we were before the vampiric act of english union.

Independence is the start.
65

Guga II,

Rockall 25/05/2008 15:39:18
#32 Nikostratos. I assume your attitude towards me is brought on by my attacking foreigners like yourself who continually badmouth Scotland and the Scottish people. Fot that, I make no apology.
66

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/05/2008 15:43:38
Is it just me or is anyone else not being allowed to copy and paste the links provided by other posters?
67

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/05/2008 15:57:33
Ah. It's all bowdlerdash. Sussed the problem @67. AOL is blocked by the Scotsman stable, with regard to the copy and paste of links, but Firefox isn't.

What on earth are they playing at?
68

lilywhite,

borders 25/05/2008 16:20:12
Of course the question is to complicated for labour voters.If you believe the likes of Allan Wilson,all the wasted votes at last years shambles were meant for Labour, as it was too complicated for the poor wee souls, grandad only ever told them to put one vote for which ever numpty was standing for labour.Putting one on both sides of the paper far too complex.

Ian Gray there are at least 4.4 billion reasons why you will lose a fair referendum, and thats why you're a big fearty like your mate Gordon
69

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/05/2008 16:22:10
The problem Iain Gray has, and this seems to affect SLab in general, is UUendy.

She doesn't know what she wants apart from power.

This link sums it up;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjQ76vqwYMk&feature=related

70

Nikostratos,

25/05/2008 16:26:02
#66 Guga II, Rockall

"attacking foreigners".......Yawn!.... what next......
71

Edward,

25/05/2008 16:50:38
Leave it long enough Iain Gray will want a referendum to decide if we should have the referendum, then another referendum to decide wether the referendum gave the right answer
72

ThomasP,

Aberdeen 25/05/2008 17:01:02
Labour are attempting to force Scotland into the United Kingdom.

If Independence does win the first referendum then the United Kingdom, and the no doubt Unionist Government shall use the second referendum to attempt to keep Scotland into the United Kingdom.

Do the Uionists here not see what Scotland is being dictated to?

This is your wonderful Union attempting to keep Scotland in the Union even if a majority vote for Independence.
73

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 25/05/2008 17:32:29
73, yes quite mad, further so when you consider there is no united kingdom after independence.

A history of the constitution for those who have not yet read it..... http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/anonn-is-anall/the-challenge-to-the-uk-state/
74

Hamish Scott,

25/05/2008 17:54:56
The wording proposed by the Scottish Government is as advised by civil servants after investigating the legalities involved. An attack on the wording of the question is an attack on the civil service, not the SNP. The wording suggested by Mr. Gray is not clearcut at all. The term 'United Kingdom' means two things: the Union of the Crowns of 1603 and the Union of the Parliaments of 1707. Independence means the dissolution of only one of the 'two' United Kingdoms.
75

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 25/05/2008 17:57:52
#1 - Senga Jean says - We produce all this oil and I have to pay 128 pence per litre for diesel.

If Scotland became independent tomorrow the tax levied would be even higher simply because there isn't a big enough private sector contributing towards the public purse. The nationalists sums never did and never will add up unless we are all prepared to become a third rate economy dependent on even more investment from the USA or wherever, and that ain't independent in my book.
76

lilywhite,

Borders 25/05/2008 18:05:08
#76
It would be so much easier if papers like the Scotsman and Herald reported the news not the propoganda.
Please read this article from a English unionist paper

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article3954031.ece

4.4 billion reasons for a referendum
77

lilywhite,

borders 25/05/2008 18:06:44
LIBERAL FOR LIFE
OMG
what a depressing thought
78

ThomasP,

Scotland, Aberdeen 25/05/2008 18:09:34
76 Liberal for life,Dunblane

You are a liar.

An Independent Report recently showed that Scotland would have a current surplus of over 4 billio pounds.

And if oil predictions to reach 200 dollars per barrel then that surplus would increase.
79

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/05/2008 18:23:04
Get a grip, folks, this is about self-respect and not the penny in your pocket due to the cost of oil. Not that the present cost of fuel has nothing to do with the benefits of the union.
80

Cpt Incredible,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 18:37:42
#76
I had to laugh,I don't think economics is your strongpoint.
Stop being so gullible.
Scotland would be one of the wealthiest countries in Europe if we were Independant.
81

Nikostratos,

25/05/2008 18:51:36



PRESS NOTICE
06 May 2008: for immediate release
Two Referendums Required for Scottish Independence

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/files/media/press-releases/2008/06-05-08%20Scottish%20Independence.pdf
82

roughrider,

Glasgow 25/05/2008 18:52:43
76 Liberal for life.
Could you please elaborate on you ignorant conclusion
after getting of your knees.
83

ThomasP,

Scotland, Aberdeen 25/05/2008 18:54:32
And when you vote Yes for Independence it should also be taken into account that you are trusting the Scottish Government into heading into negociations and you should not need a 2nd vote.

What happens if we say No the 2nd time?

Does the Union ignore the fact we had voted for Independence and carry on as if it had never happened?
84

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 18:59:01
42

No of course it wasnt since when has anybody paid any attention to what a politician says??
85

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 19:13:27
85

This two vote nonsence only proves Labour have no intentions of dealing with a yes vote for Independence even if they control the form of the question.
They have zero credibility as a democratic political party. They have become an autocratic self serving institute which still feeds on its old persona of the party created from the socialist working classes and the creators of the NHS and workers rights.
I dont know what more Labour can do to prove to their core voters they are now polluted with self serving Conservative views and political dogma.
It is obvious to those less than retarded yet their old socialist worker drones still vote for them in droves.
86

Nikostratos,

25/05/2008 19:16:28
“But there are also reasons of principle why there should be two referendums. People in Scotland might
support independence in principle, but think again when confronted with the terms of independence. The
terms will include not just issues like North Sea oil, but division of the national debt, ending all financial
transfers from the UK government, and Scotland’s continued membership of the EU. The Scots are entitled to
know the detailed terms of independence before making such a big decision”.
The Constitution Unit addressed the referendum issue (among others) in Jo Murkens’ book Scottish
Independence – A Practical Guide (Edinburgh University Press, 2002) and made two observations. First, the
referendum question would need to be carefully worded to be about commencing negotiations rather than
about independence itself, in order to stay within the confines of the powers of the Scottish Executive and
Scottish Parliament defined in the Scotland Act 1998. The question would be on the principle (rather than the
details) of independence. Secondly, the terms and conditions of Scottish independence (including that
Scotland would separate from the United Kingdom) would be the subject-matter of a second referendum.
87

lulach mac gille coemgain,

25/05/2008 19:26:04
Labour = the yo yo politics party !
88

Jwil,

25/05/2008 20:32:25
Labour tried to pauchle the Scottish elections last year; now they want to do the same to a referendum vote. How can you give them any credence to what they are proposing?

The best solution is for the SNP to give them a sound trouncing in the next election. If we do that most of these Labour MEPS won't be around to spout their vitriol.
89

roughrider,

Glasgow 25/05/2008 23:08:42
88 Nikostratos
LMAO
What an idiotic post.
Do you own a whitehall grey suit?
90

chicmac,

Angus 25/05/2008 23:47:10
Fromm 88 Nikostratos
"The terms will include not just issues like North Sea oil, but division of the national debt, ending all financial transfers from the UK government, and Scotland’s continued membership of the EU. "

Oh heck, let's work back through this list.

First the suggestion that EU membership be included in an independence referendum.

This is completely unworkable and totally dishonest.

Say for example, it was decided to have 'in the EU' as a referendum condition.
OK for starters the EU might have something to say on that matter, next there is the question of Scotland's renegotiation regarding EU membership (e.g. Scottish water fishing quotas) if the Scottish ministers are already tied into the EU with a referendum result it totally scuppers their bargaining power. Say the future Scottish Government don't like the new EU deal and decide to pull out? The EU can point to the referendum result and say 'But you just had a referendum and the people voted for EU membership', the Us will say 'you will need another referendum without the EU' it is complete nonsense.
The only way that the EU memb