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Founding father of US 'will inspire independence fight'



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Published Date: 02 April 2008
ALEX Salmond yesterday invoked the words of Thomas Jefferson when he told a US audience that Scotland had the right to self-governance.
In a Scotland Week speech at the University of Virginia, the First Minister used the founding father's work to promote a referendum on independence for Scotland.

In his second keynote speech of the week he said: "Scotland, sooner rather than late
r, is entitled to have the right to choose our constitutional future.

"That is a guiding principle for the debate on Scotland's future – a national conversation involving all the people of Scotland.

"And it is the words of Thomas Jefferson that will inspire us: 'We are a people capable of self-government, and worthy of it'."

Speaking at the university in Charlottesville, which was founded by Jefferson in 1819, he said: "Tartan Day was inaugurated ten years ago because the Senate recognised the influence of Scotland's Declaration of Arbroath on America's Declaration of Independence.

"However, the connecting theme is not just clarion calls for liberty and independence, but the recognition of the sovereignty of the people first suggested in European history in the Arbroath Declaration and taken to its logical conclusion by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence.

"I call on politicians on all sides of the debate to recognise the sovereignty of the people.

"This is the basis on which the United States first asserted its right to self-government. And it is the guiding principle for the debate on Scotland's future – a national conversation involving all the people of Scotland."

He added: "When the people of Scotland consider their place in the world and debate our constitutional future, the proper means to exercise this sovereignty is through a referendum.

"Thomas Jefferson wrote that 'every nation has a right to govern itself internally under what forms it pleases, and to change these forms at its own will'."

A delegation of Scottish ministers are in the US to mark Tartan Day and Scotland Week, which was known as Tartan Week prior to a rebranding exercise aimed at making the event more meaningful to Americans.

Before making his speech yesterday, Mr Salmond visited the home of Jefferson – Monticello, the only residence in the US on the United Nations World Heritage List – where he presented a copy of the Declaration of Arbroath to Dr Tim Garson, the provost of the University of Virginia.

Today, the First Minister is due to make his third and final keynote speech of the week when he addresses the National Geographic Society in Washington on energy.

Mr Salmond is also due to attend a Tartan Day reception at Capitol Hill in Washington DC.

The First Minster will then host the Tartan Day tenth anniversary dinner at the Library of Congress with Linda Fabiani, the culture minister .

Miss Fabiani will tour the Smithsonian Centre and attend the Scottish Business Networking reception at the Carnegie Institute.

Meanwhile, Jim Mather, the enterprise minister, will take part in a number of business meetings in Houston.





The full article contains 506 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 April 2008 9:39 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish independence
 
1

Angus Ogg,

01/04/2008 22:45:28
"Thomas Jefferson wrote that 'every nation has a right to govern itself internally under what forms it pleases, and to change these forms at its own will'."

Fine words.

So when do we, the people get the chance to vote?

Why do the Conservatives, the Liberals, and the Labour Party refuse to let the peopl vote on this?
2

Highland Mighty,

01/04/2008 23:58:25
Proof, as if it were needed, that Salmond is seriously starting to lose the plot!

You can just picture the American listeners saying to each other, "Isn't Gordon Brown Scottish? Wasn't Blair Scottish?"

Why can't he get it into his thick head that it isn't London stopping Scotland from becoming independent...IT'S WE THE PEOPLE! THREE-QUARTERS OF US DO NOT WANT TO BE INDEPENDENT!

3

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 00:12:28
"That is a guiding principle for the debate on Scotland's future – a national conversation involving all the people of Scotland."

That will be the same national conversation that less than 0.01% of us have contributed to, would it?

"However, the connecting theme is not just clarion calls for liberty and independence, but the recognition of the sovereignty of the people first suggested in European history in the Arbroath Declaration and taken to its logical conclusion by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence."

Yes, the soveriegnty of the PEOPLE. Not you, Salmond. THE PEOPLE. US.

We just do not want your independence and we certainly don't want to feed your overblown ego or your legacy complex.

We have listened to you for nearly a year now, trying so very hard to make us all angry with the UK with your pathetic and banal tales of Norwegian chessmen, curry chefs, bank notes, border towns (and the list goes on) and we totally ignored you.

For independence
Mar 07 - 28%
Jan 08 - 27% - DOWN 1%

For staying in the UK
Mar 07 - 51%
Jan 08 - 57% - UP 6%!!
4

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 02/04/2008 00:13:11
Maybe not HM..but cant you even agree that the SG should get the money for our prisons?
5

monkey man,

02/04/2008 00:15:30
Little tubby Salmond away on a Brigadoon Beano to the USA....Scotland's Shame, indeed.!

A failed Westminster politician in charge of a toytown " parliament" that his own country doesn't even recognise as legitimate, yet he's embarrassingly yet again trying to convince the Yanks otherwise. Dear oh dear. lol

6

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 02/04/2008 00:18:16
And your comments on our great leader are a bit harsh.
He is more of a statesman than any liebour (sorry) ALL liebour politicions put together.
More done under the SNP in 8 months than liebour did in 8 years.
7

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 00:19:37
#2 Highland Mighty

You really are full of it aren't you?

Can you please post one quote, link or reference showing Alex Salmond suggest that London is stopping Scotland becoming Independent? Yes, Westminister will distort the thruth or withhold information about Scotland's position in the union but you are putting words in Alex's mouth.

Secondly I can guarantee you that 95% of Americans would think Brown is English and 99.9% would think Blair is English.

However you already know both these things - you are a troll
8

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 00:19:59
Shall I also list the truly pathetic participation figures in the heavily publicised online petitions (less than 0.001% of Scotland has signed the biggest one), the heavily publicised White Paper (only 0.5% of Scotland has bothered to read it), the very latest poll that showed that 76% supported staying in the UK compared to 23% against and also the various.......nah, forget it!

What a joke! LOL!
9

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 00:23:26
7. You can "guarantee" that, could you? Mmm?

Shows what a waste of time and money this 'Scotland Week' is then, doesn't it.
10

My Hamster Ate Freddie Starr,

02/04/2008 00:25:31
Find a life, people!

Intensive studies have shown that this site knows how to "churn a list".

HTML saved.
11

The Strategist,

02/04/2008 00:28:06
HM you're a twirp.. The Americans will understand exactly what Alex Salmond is saying because the USA is a nation that strongly believes in itself, is enterprising and dynamic.

You on the other hand represent the "oh we cannae do that" attitude which has been dragging this country backwards for decades.

12

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 00:28:15
3
Highland Mighty;
"We have listened to you for nearly a year now, trying so very hard to make us all angry with the UK with your pathetic and banal tales of Norwegian chessmen, curry chefs, bank notes, border towns (and the list goes on) and we totally ignored you."

No you didn't.You are talking about it now.
13

Angus Ogg,

02/04/2008 00:28:25
#3 High M.

Calm down a bit, you are worrying a lot of us that you will have an infarction !!!

Given your figures, and to quote president Jefferson... 'every nation has a right to govern itself internally under what forms it pleases, and to change these forms at its own will'

Then why can't we have a vote. Why is Labour preventing a vote?

Please can we have a vote and be done with it?

Thankyou.
14

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 00:28:28
11. Oh no, he's saved the page!

NOW we're in trouble!
15

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 00:29:15
HM

Prove the veracity of your statement about Alex blaming London.

How would Americans mistakingly believeing Gordon Brown to be English lessen the effect of Scotland Week

Why the inverted commas around 'Scotland Week'?

You are an odious charectar.

Are you Scottish?
16

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 00:33:07
5
monkey man

I hope you get great pleasure out of these.

http://www.germes-online.com/direct/dbimage/50211010/Tube_Union_Nuts.jpg
17

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 00:34:02
12. I'm not one of those saying how terrible Scotland is right now, am I.

I'm not one of those perpetually talking the country down as "a failure", a "land of cowards" who "desperately need to be run by a colonial power", am I.

No, that would be the nationalists doing that, wouldn't it.

Go and give yourself one.
18

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 00:35:30
16. You are actually asking me to show Salmond blaming London?

I don't have that long.
19

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 00:39:22
19
Why? School in the morning?

Surely it should be easy to post a few quotes?

20

Colkitto,

River Clyde 02/04/2008 00:40:34
I love it when the unionists declare that the majority of Scotland don't want independence.
But are s**t scared of having a referendum. Even knowing they will win it !
It don't make sense at all....Perhaps they know they won't win it.. I wonder...??
21

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 00:40:56
There we have it, people.

The nats are denying it is London stopping Scotland from becoming independent.

So, it must be the people then.

Damn that pesky democracy.
22

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 00:45:05
22
The screams of tortured logic...
23

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 02/04/2008 00:47:28
HM.
0.00% of people having a say on your prefered constitution.
24

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 02/04/2008 00:49:58
HM...How much does the Hootsmon pay per post?
You surely have enough by now for your labotamy!
25

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 02/04/2008 00:50:14
HM...How much does the Hootsmon pay per post?
You surely have enough by now for your labotamy!
26

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 00:51:56
Highland Mighty,01/04/2008 23:58:25

"IT'S WE THE PEOPLE!"

You are more than one person????

"THREE-QUARTERS OF US DO NOT WANT TO BE INDEPENDENT!"

You want to be dependent?

How unusual.
27

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/04/2008 00:53:31
Altaterra Megatrix.

Go to bed AM2, you've had a long shift.

It's been a good day for supporters of the SG, hasn't it?
28

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 00:55:45
26
Alas no.

Perhaps a severe talking to?

With handcuffs and balaclavas?
29

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 00:57:50
Highland Mighty,02/04/2008 00:12:28

"That will be the same national conversation that less than 0.01% of US have contributed to, would it?"

They're that collective term again. How many of you are using the Highland Mighty log in?


"Yes, the soveriegnty of the PEOPLE. Not you, Salmond. THE PEOPLE. *US*."

There it is again.

"*WE* just do not want your independence and *WE* certainly don't want to feed your overblown ego or your legacy complex."

WE again. Come on. Is it two of you? Three? A menage et quatre?

"*WE* have listened to you for nearly a year now, trying so very hard to make us all angry with the UK with your pathetic and banal tales of Norwegian chessmen, curry chefs, bank notes, border towns (and the list goes on) and *WE* totally ignored you."

Five? Six? Please tell.

-----------------

For independence
Mar 07 - 28%
Jan 08 - 27% - DOWN 1%

For staying in the UK
Mar 07 - 51%
Jan 08 - 57% - UP 6%!!

I love unsoyrced polls. They're so Zimbabwe and in at the moment.
30

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta ...smell the burn. 02/04/2008 00:59:07
Alex Salmond said, on his boon-doggle tour in the US:

That is a guiding principle for the debate on Scotland's future – a national conversation involving all the people of Scotland.

"And it is the words of Thomas Jefferson that will inspire us: 'We are a people capable of self-government, and worthy of it'."Hey dudes.
------------------------------------------
Hey Dudes,
The more I read about Ur Leader Alex Salmond, the more I feel he is similar to Barack Hussein Obama.

Here in the US we call that 'Smoke and Mirrors".

Don't U SNP fanatics understand, that while the majority of Scots voters, do not want to break with the UK . U cannot have an Independent Scotland.

Every pole taken, show that the vast majority of Scots votes, favor staying within the UK . And for good reasons .

In the global economy of 2008, BIG is BETTER and BIG is SAFER on ever front.

As for Salmond's "national conversation, involving all the people of Scotland" ,that is pure political rhetoric, with no substance.

Still, in every society, there is the minority who get conned by the political rhetoric based on doomed policies.

In 2000, the minority of the US voters, were conned by G W Bush, and it took the US Supreme Court to make the final call, on who would be the President of the USA.

I doubt very much that the majority of Scots voters will buy into Alex Salmonds bull sh*t in 2008.

Unless they want to join the 3rd world brigade.

Alex Salmond and the SNP, need to prove themselves by growing the Scottish economy . Until they do that, its all political chatter, which is worthless.

It has no monitory value, it puts no food on the table, it creates no new jobs . ts just talk.

Dudes,
As I have often said: Its all about money.

Look at the Oil companies ,the Banks, the Insurance Co's. making $ billions in profits.

They have one thing in common they are BIG very BIG.

Look at the world power brokers. the USA , Japan, EU, China, India, Russia, t
31

,

02/04/2008 01:00:17
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32

Castaway,

02/04/2008 01:02:28
#2 - Why can't he get it into his thick head that it isn't London stopping Scotland from becoming independent. That would be upto the UK Parliament (English).
Why is the UK Parliament (English) desperate to keep Scotland in the UK ?
Why if we have been such a drain on English resources for so long, why didn't they kick us out years ago ?
Between 1889 and 1914 Parliament debated Scottish home rule 15 times, and introduced four bills on the subject. In 1913 a Home Rule Bill passed its second reading before being defeated at the final vote.
The hard-line Conservative Thatcher Government sought an opposite approach. Thatcher and her successor, John Major, sought to kill of the whole idea of devolving power to a parliament in Scotland.
Why that stupid 40% rule in the 1979 referendum ?
Why hide the 1974 McCrone report ?
Why PR for the Scottish Parliament ?
Now it is oil but also the replacement trident missile system, the new nuclear power stations, Scottish water plus Scotland occupies less land per head of population than England with its expanding population, the UK place at the UN could be threatened, place on the G8, reduction in the number of seats in the EU Parliament etc

It looks to me that Westminster doesn't want Scotland to be independent nor to have a devolved form of Government.

33

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta ...smell the burn. 02/04/2008 01:02:36

#33 contd:
they have one thing in common They are BIG .

But U SNP fanatics, want to be a tiny and insignificant player, wallowing in dead-and-gone historical events..

WOW what a refreshing concept for guaranteed poverty for the Scots people.

Happy Haggis day

GC
34

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 01:05:56
"they have one thing in common They are BIG"

Like China and India.

You're point being?

"But U SNP fanatics, want to be a tiny and insignificant player, wallowing in dead-and-gone historical events.."

I missed Trafalgar Day. I was out the country.

"Happy Haggis day"

Did you write "Cringe is what we do" for Wendy?
35

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 01:06:21
33
Galcan
t? I like a wee cup now and again; but a World power broker!?
Are you thinking of shrooms?
t made with shrooms?
36

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 01:07:38
Wow! CyberNat is really putting me in my place!

He's clearly never heard of the term "We, the people" which is quite astonishing given the document it comes from.

And unsourced polls? They're both YouGov.

Here's one for you: "Scotland pays the entire cost of Trident" - Source? Proof?

Yet more evidence that the SNP depend wholly and totally on gullibility and ignorance for their support.
37

,

02/04/2008 01:08:58
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38

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 01:09:14
37. The nats and His All-Encompassing Greatness, Salmond?
39

,

02/04/2008 01:09:58
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40

,

02/04/2008 01:10:59
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41

,

02/04/2008 01:12:54
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42

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 01:13:33
"Wow! CyberNat is really putting me in my place!"

Who are you refering that to?

"He's clearly never heard of the term "We, the people" which is quite astonishing given the document it comes from."

Again, who are you refering that to?

And what's that got to do with your collective comments rather than as an individual
"And unsourced polls? They're both YouGov."

What? No dates? Samples?

"Here's one for you: "Scotland pays the entire cost of Trident" - Source? Proof?"

As strawmen arguments go that's pretty poor.

"Yet more evidence that the SNP depend wholly and totally on gullibility and ignorance for their support."

What evidence? It's your comment. You provide it.
43

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 01:13:43
38/39/41/43/44. And the nats disintegrate once again into incomprehensible gibberish yet again (it just gets earlier every day).
44

,

02/04/2008 01:13:44
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45

,

02/04/2008 01:14:54
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46

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 01:15:26
37
Good point Col.Would you also agree that a lifestyle of merely ingesting psilocybin mushrooms, is not the best way to make your point.




Dude.
47

,

02/04/2008 01:15:28
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48

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 01:16:19
They're already dated, you frickin idiot! Look at the original post! Look at your response!!

Go find the polls for yourself!

LOL!!!

Make that gullibility, ignorance AND STUPIDITY.
49

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 01:21:19
And I include Galactic Cannibal in that statement,HM.

50

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 01:21:22
If they are dated which one from March are you refering to then?

See you haven't answered any of my questions yet. Nor explained where this odd Trident comment from that you somehow ascribe to me.

Anyway, maybe you can answer this for a start. Why do you want to be dependent?

"frickin idiot ... gullibility, ignorance AND STUPIDITY."

Ah abuse as well as no answers. Love it. Keep it up.
51

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 02/04/2008 01:22:16
High and Mighty

Aren't we full of anger and indignation these early hours. What to get up so tight about? Independence has no chance of happening according to you. But I guess what you don't like is the publicity it's getting in the great land of our best pals eh? Guess that's what happens when a third of the Scottish voters vote in an effective minority government, and when the opposition parties have no talent or charisma and can't get their act together. What did you expect?

By the way, when you quote polls, do give their source at the time so that they can be checked. Here's a new one to check out. Although UK-based, there are some interesting figures on page 16....
http://www.comres.co.uk/resources/7/Political%20Polls/Political%20Poll%20Mar%2008.pdf
52

Lianachan,

Highlands 02/04/2008 01:22:43
#22 I'm curious - what's democratic about not allowing a referedum, about actually preventing people from expressing their views one way or the other?
53

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 01:24:16
"Haggis, neeps 'n' tatties for me!" I don't know who you think you are annoying but you are certainly bugging me with the gash you're playing at.
54

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 01:25:56
57
Perhaps a troll?

It has been known.
55

Senga Jean,

Scotland 02/04/2008 01:26:02
#52 Highland Muddy you are getting offa excited. Self loathing sellouts of their country should remain calm or their heads will explode. This is a well known fact. BTW which Highland do you take your name from. Cannot be Scotland. If you doubt any of this let a VOTE by the people guide you through your darkness. INDEPENDENCE.. you know it makes sense.
56

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 01:30:21
Andrew BOD,Aberdeen/shire 02/04/2008 01:22:16

"High and Mighty...Independence has no chance of happening according to you."

That should be "you all" as H&M is a "we" or an "us".

But a good point nonetheless. Why do they spend so much time on something they say isn't going to happen and has no support?

I don't think Cowdenbeath are going to win the SPL so I don't bother arguing that they aren't.

It rather betrays the interest in the debate and the possibilities that they engage in it.

Maybe the loss of dependency is the factor. But I haven't had an answer on that yet.
57

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 01:39:53
60
Perhaps if Cowdenbeath were bought by a Eastern European...businessman...
58

,

02/04/2008 01:47:13
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59

,

02/04/2008 01:47:30
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60

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 02/04/2008 01:47:57
Conan 61

"Perhaps if Cowdenbeath were bought by a Eastern European...businessman..."

...they might end up like Gretna or £39 million pound in debt.
61

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 01:50:31
Highland Mighty

Got any quotes showing Alex 'blaming London' for anything yet?

You must have hundreds surely?

If you can't substantiate what you say what value are your posts?

62

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 01:51:01
Haggis Me lad, you ruined the page, and you know your,
'Blanks' will be all removed by the moderator, by 11am today!

I know this edition of the Scotsman News, may be the most boring yet,
But you needn't represent them!
63

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 01:51:04
54. So, do we agree that Scotland obviously does not pay for all of Trident then? I think it's a very odd claim too. Actually, no. Not odd, no. Insane. Yes, it's an insane claim.

55. A poll of 73 people? What an accurate picture that paints. That's not even a bus-load, is it.
64

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 01:56:05
62. Independence support has (yet again) been posted already. See post 3 and also Salmond's interview with the BBC last weekend when he admitted "support was still only a quarter of the population".

So, a "quarter of the population" it is. Salmond himself concedes that fact. Oh dear!

(Dougie Douglas = Ayrshire Scot? Both have the same perpetual ability to put everyone around them into a coma.)
65

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 02/04/2008 01:59:24
I suppose the 'bus-load' is from Dundee as well?

Anyway, what about my main point? What's to get so uptight about?
66

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 02:00:36
Z'zzzzzzzzzzzzz
67

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 02:03:58
"54. So, do we agree that Scotland obviously does not pay for all of Trident then?"

You're (all?) using "we" again.

But anyway, why are you addressing a point to me about something I never mentioned and ignoring all my questions?

Here's links to them. The questions end with the thing that looks like a tadpool doing a poo.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Founding-father-of-US-39will.3936607.jp?CommentPage=1&CommentPageLength=1000#2665003

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Founding-father-of-US-39will.3936607.jp?CommentPage=1&CommentPageLength=1000#2665015

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Founding-father-of-US-39will.3936607.jp?CommentPage=1&CommentPageLength=1000#2665032

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Founding-father-of-US-39will.3936607.jp?CommentPage=1&CommentPageLength=1000#2665056
68

Edward,

02/04/2008 02:04:05
ah Highland Chicken
too scared of trusting the people to decide there own future
Come on Highland chicken, explain why you dont want Scotland to have a referendum and please dont include any percentages of who supports what, that is becoming very boring I want to hear a realistic arguement as to why the country does not deserve to choose for itself or is it that you just dont have an arguement and prefer to trott out the same old same old from Labour party HQ
69

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 02:05:39
67
Re 54
The payment would be made by the people around the Trident base, when ***they*** were nuked.
70

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 02:06:53
"62. Independence support has (yet again) been posted already. See post 3 and also Salmond's interview with the BBC last weekend when he admitted "support was still only a quarter of the population".

So, a "quarter of the population" it is. Salmond himself concedes that fact. Oh dear!"

And your point is?

That it's always been a quarter? That 1 in 4 of the population is not substantial? That there's no support for a referendum? That Cowdenbeath can win the SPL?
71

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 02:12:12
74
Dinnae be daft.Cowdenbeath WILL win the SPL.

Eventually.
72

Guga II,

Rockall 02/04/2008 02:16:00
#3 High as a Kite Numpty. You are obviously not Scottish, but you are obviously a troll.
73

,

02/04/2008 02:16:24
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74

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 02/04/2008 02:27:00
Och, I'm fed up waiting Highland Mighty. After your verbal diahorrea at the start of the thread, you failed to answer my simple question. Picking and choosing what you're going to answer is becoming oh so common with you. Dougie Douglas is right: AM2 at least gives you a meaningful response.

Guidnicht.
75

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 02:36:43
77
Dougie.
He hasn't responded to a single post of mine.
AM2 did, if you were polite ...
76

montecristo,

02/04/2008 02:59:18
FREEDOM!


I am an Englishman of Welsh descent, who has been during told his entire life(61) that he is British. I never minded this as we were all, Scottish,Welsh & N.Irish part of the union that made up Britian. Now, Scotland has almost gained its separation from from England, a monarchial arrangement made union.

I lived and worked in Scotland for many years and love the people and their culture, my brother is married to a scottish lass. I believe Scotland is showing England the way. Labour is putting the squeeze on Scotland to make it conform to labours wishes. Labour sees scotland as "traitorous" for choosing the SNP over labour. Good for Scotland!

I personally would like to see a new union of equal partners, a united Britian of four different free nations with a common defence and foreign policy and all else up to the individual states. But before any of us can get anywhere near this position we must first throw out labour and its communistic policies of control .

We in the south need and English national party like the SNP that can work in collusion with the SNP for a common goal. Labour fragmented the union for its own selfish ends, divide and conquerer. I am sick of seeing ant-scottish, anti-welsh, anti-Irish and anti-English comments. We are all in the same boat and we get on very well except for the politicians who would divide us. So Scotland, show us the way, put the boot into labour and we in the south, will follow your lead.

William Wallace may not have actually cried "Freedom", but his spirit certainly did, and the same sort of tyrant (new labour), has his foot on all our throats.


77

,

02/04/2008 03:21:32
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78

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/04/2008 03:36:50
#80

An excellent post. There is no need for a central government oriented strusture that served the interests of empire but is less relevant in this multi lateral world in which we live.
79

Virginian,

USA 02/04/2008 03:46:20
Article Quote:Alex Salmond, "Tartan Day was inaugurated ten years ago because the [U.S.]Senate recognized the influence of Scotland's Declaration of Arbroath on America's Declaration of Independence."

Answer:

The Declaration of Arbroath of 1320 was a plea to the Roman Catholic Pope in Rome to decide in favor of Scotland over England in a quarrel.

This petition was drawn up by Bernard de Linton who was the Abbot of Arbroath and the Chancellor of Scotland. It was also signed by 45 barons and 8 earls of Scotland.

The 13 English colonies found their rights as Englishmen in the "Magna Carta" of 1215 when English barons made King John sign the Great Charter that declared the English church as free from the Pope in Rome.

Thomas Jefferson paraphrased the "Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence of May 20, 1775, drawn up by a group of Scotch-Irish Presbyterians in Mecklenburg, North Carolina.

Thomas Jefferson did not come up with the Declaration of Independence on his own. After the deliberations of the Continental Congress in Philadelphia, Jefferson was given the task of putting the issues on paper. He undoubtedly has access to the Mecklenburg Declaration because it was sent to the Continental Congress.

Alex Salmond will have a hard time convincing any American who knows his history that an appeal to the Pope and not the Scottish and Scotch-Irish Presbyterians had anything to do with the Declaration of Independence or the American Revolutionary War.

SNP was co-founded by a convert Roman Catholic Jacobite by the name of Compton Mackenzie, who just happened to be born in England.

Mackenzie discovered his Stuart family roots and became involved in the idea of restoring the Stuarts to the Scottish throne.

Perhaps Alex has in mind to be King Alexander the Great of Scotland.

What did Salmond think that he was going to accomplish by making such an absurd speech at UVA? He has no idea why we declared our independence.

The English colonies dec
80

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/04/2008 04:18:42
#83

While the Magna Carta placed limits on the power of Kings the Declaration of Arbroath affirmed that sovereignty was in the hands of the people and not the monarch.

"Yet if he should give up what he has begun,
and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert
ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make
some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain
alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor
riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives
up but with life itself."

Since both documents where signed hundreds of years before Martin Luther your silly sectarian argument holds no water.
81

James,

Boston 02/04/2008 04:32:07
Virginian.
Speak to Newt Gingrich, he'll bring you up to speed.

Also a learned man woulde surely be aware that the signatories to the Declaration of Indepandence were neither exclusively Scotch/Irish, nor Presbyterian.

In fact a diverse group(in alphabetical order)....Anglican,Congregationalist,Deist,Episcopal,Presbyterian,Roman Catholic and Unitarian.

A certain intellectual Mr Witherspoon, was involved in the drafting and is felt he drew inspiration from his homeland, rather than from some disgruntled sectarianist folks from Mecklenburg.

But lets not let that get in the way of your anti-Catholic ravings.
82

Virginian,

USA 02/04/2008 05:11:48
#84 Traquir, Alba

Quote: "Try and read your own Government's resolutions before spouting such crap"

Answer: This is not the first ridiculous resolution put out by the "history-challenged" US Congress.

Traquir, why don't you Google "The Declaration of Arbroath 1320" or go to the web site at www.constitution.org/scot/arbroath.htm?

Then you can show us where Thomas Jefferson, of Welsh descent, used that document when he wrote down the Declaration of Independence.

My Presbyterian ancestors knew Thomas Jefferson and were with George Washington throughout the Revolutionary War. Several were delegates to the Virginia Convention to Ratify the US Constitution.

John Knox, the founder of Presbyterian Church of Scotland had far more to do with the founding of the United States than did a bunch of debauched Jacobites.

The only thing the Stuarts had to do with founding the United States was to persecute the Scottish Presbyterians and cause them to go to America for religious and civil freedom.

The American Revolution was termed the Presbyterian Revolution by the British who knew what they were saying.

It appears that you are a latter-day Jacobite trying to ride the Presbyterian coattails to "freedom" from England and to take Scotland into "bondage" to the EU.

Why don't you read some real history instead of relying on some US Government Resolution that few Americans have even heard about?

Do you believe everything you read that agrees with your preconceived fancies?





83

Gregorf,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 05:47:52
Civil war it is
84

Beth Boyle,

NY one of the 13 original Colonies. 02/04/2008 05:49:30
Well said Virginian #87. As a matter of fact at the time of the American Revolution there were few democratic models to inspire but one was the Presbyterian Church and the other was the 6 nations of the Iroquois but had an impact on Jefferson. This is all so interesting. What goes round comes round and so it goes we enter the debate once more on self rule.
85

donald,

glasgow 02/04/2008 06:09:50
We have our Benedict Arnold's too.
86

Virginian,

USA 02/04/2008 06:15:48
#85 Kampung Highlander, Jakarta
Quote: "While the Magna Carta placed limits on the power of Kings the Declaration of Arbroath affirmed that sovereignty was in the hands of the people and not the monarch."

Answer: The Declaration of Arbroath was merely a petition to the Pope. It did not matter what it "affirmed" because the Pope was not able to grant the petition.

The Magna Carta not only placed limits on the power of kings but also stated that the Pope in Rome was not over the church in England.

The Magna Carta states:
"1. In the first place we have conceded to God, and by this our present charter confirmed for us and our heirs for ever that the English church shall be free, and shall have her rights entire, and her liberties inviolate;(www.magnacartaplus.org/magnacarta/Accessed 2/1/2008)"

The Barons of Runnymede assured that all freeborn Englishmen would have their civil and religious rights in a document that stands today.

The Declaration of Arbroath was just wishful thinking and accomplished nothing of value.

87

glassbenmhor,

02/04/2008 06:32:50
All you Unionistas know fine well in your deepest hearts that you can hear evensong and see the last rays of sunset cast,and deny it not .
The real thing is you all think it is Salmond and the SNP that was the last attack,but the historical light is here within these posts,Labour Labour and Labour again there for christ sake is your enemy to the Union and not just in the last 10 years.They have milked,raped,distorted,knived,swisted at every turn the separate identities of Great Britain to suit themselves at every throw of the political dice.Blame not the Conservatives or Westminster or the Lords.
The Labour Party is the Scum that you are shouting about and SHOULD be the target of your bile.
88

glassbenmhor,

02/04/2008 06:35:41
Hey Virginian,wee bit of Baptismal Fire and Brimstone there eh!
Keep your religious crap over there it will not be tolerated here I can assure you.
89

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/04/2008 06:41:49
Silly Salmond!

Of course we are capable of governing ourselves; we have already begun that process.

Of course we are capable of surviving as an independent nation!

The real question is: will the gains outweigh the losses?

The answer is a firm 'No'!
90

Virginian,

USA 02/04/2008 06:50:45
#91 Traquir, Alba

Quote: "Enjoy and appreciate your Scottish Heritage."

Answer: No encouragement is needed to appreciate my Scotch/Irish and Scottish Presbyterian ancestors' considerable contribution to the founding of the United States.

That's why opportunistic politicians who like to take credit where credit is not due deserve to be set straight.

91

british and proud,

02/04/2008 06:54:15
i wouldnt trust alex two jobs salmond as far as i could throw the clown.
92

,

02/04/2008 07:04:33
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Reason:
93

Rankbadyin,

Palmerston North 02/04/2008 07:08:12
... statesman will visit a an independent Scotland and provide some homilies regarding the wisdom of old political nobodies
94

Thoroughly Bored,

02/04/2008 07:11:10
Scotland chose to form a Union with England democratically and of its own free will.

So tell me? Why does Alex Salmond pretend Scotland has never/or does not have this right?

The reality is, Scotland does not agree with the whinging idiot and the will of the Scottish people is to govern ourselves as part of the United Kingdom.



95

Virginian,

USA 02/04/2008 07:14:12
#95. glassbenmhor
Quote: "Hey Virginian, wee bit of Baptismal Fire and Brimstone there eh! Keep your religious crap over there it will not be tolerated here I can assure you."

Answer: Perhaps it's my religious ideas that account for the fact that the English colonies were able to fight and win our independence from England in 1776 as you so desperately desire for Scotland.

How many years has it been since Scotland has been a part of Great Britain?

There seems to be a certain Scotsman named Alex Salmond that is over here talking about how Thomas Jefferson used the idea from a 1320 Scots' groveling plea to a Pope to get England off their backs.

Maybe the SNP ought to become Presbyterian if they really want independence. Problem is that no sensible Presbyterian would want to break up the UK just to go into a far worse situation in the EU.

96

The Jannie,

Out there and watching 02/04/2008 07:32:59
I get the feeling that this whole debate is being urged along by those who might wish to be big fish in a little pond.
97

Gregorf,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 07:36:02
I fail to see the gains in a Union that delivers poverty, ill health, low standard of living, obesity, most violent society in the developed world.

presumably most of us have failed to see something?
98

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 07:36:48
What I do not understand about the Declaration of Arbroath is why it was never practised in Scotland at any stage. The words it contains are, indeed, fine and stirring. But when you look at Scotland's history before 1707 you will find there was never a time when the Scottish people were sovereign. They were given no say in whether the country of Scotland should have been created in the first place and they were never given a say in how it was run.

In fact, it is hard to escape the conclusion that the Declaration of Arbroath is little more than the desperate plea of one set of aristocrats to be left in peace by another set of aristocrats.
99

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 07:37:59
#99 - Who would you like to seekilled in the name of creating an independent Scotland?
100

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 07:39:05
#106 - Were the people of Scotland ever consulted about the creation of Scotland? A simple yes or no will suffice