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Diplomat warns of US 'horror' over Scottish independence



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Published Date: 27 September 2008
ONE of Britain's most experienced and influential diplomats has warned that inward investment from the United States could dry up if Scotland becomes independent.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, a former British ambassador to the US and former head of the Diplomatic Service, also said he believed an independent Scotland would struggle to get into the EU because of likely opposition from countries with their own separ
atist movements.

Speaking to The Scotsman, Lord Kerr, who was born and educated in Scotland, said he believed that whoever won this year's US presidential election would react in the same way to Scottish independence.

He said: "There would be private horror in both cases because they would see it as a weakening of the United Kingdom which they see as the principle European, and possibly global, ally. That would be true if either Obama or McCain was president."

He added: "Scottish independence would be seen by American politicians as a bad thing but they would be smart enough to say that in private, not in public – they would regard it as none of their business in public.

"But, as for American business, they would also see it as a bad thing; they would regard it as bad news if they were thinking of investing in Scotland."

Lord Kerr, an independent cross-bench peer who was ambassador and UK permanent representative to the European Communities/European Union during John Major's premiership, also predicted a tough time for an independent Scotland in Europe.

"If Scotland was to become independent, it would have to leave the EU and reapply to get back in," he said. "People in Scotland love to believe it isn't true, but getting back in would not be easy.

"I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, but it would not be easy. Scotland would have to overcome the objections of countries like Spain which doesn't want Catalonia to go the same way.

"In all probability, the Scots would get in but they would be out for quite a time before they got back."

Lord Kerr's intervention, on both these issues, represents a blow to SNP arguments over Scottish independence.

Alex Salmond has argued the opposite: first, that an independent Scotland would attract new inward investment, particularly from the US; and also that Scotland would become a member of the EU in a "seamless" fashion immediately after independence.

A source close to the First Minister said: "This is palpable nonsense. Scotland is already an integral and valuable part of the European Union.

"All serious international legal opinion is agreed that an independent Scotland would remain part of the EU and be warmly welcomed by our European neighbours.

"An independent Scotland, with a highly skilled workforce and lower corporation tax rates than our neighbours, would also be an attractive destination for inward investment from the United States and elsewhere."





The full article contains 480 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 26 September 2008 10:18 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish independence
 
1

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 27/09/2008 00:16:24
So Lord Kerr thinks to himself, I'm board, I know I'll phone the Scotsman and give them my views on Independence.

I wonder what other 'unbiased' sources the Scotsman will just happen upon before a certain by-election
2

Vivas,

Edinburgh 27/09/2008 00:19:25
Is this the same US of A who (ahem) boldly supports the rights of people to (supposedly) democratic sovereign government in Georgia and the whole Eastern bloc ? Even to the extent of tacit military support through NATO ? Laughable.

If we gain independence it'll be becuase the people of Scotland say so, through the ballot box. When that day comes, you can kiss my my hairy Scottish errse "your lordship".
3

PJ07,

27/09/2008 00:20:06
Usual Bilge. If Scotland would have to apply for membership of the EU, then so would the newly independent England.

Get round that if you can?

Why would a country that gained it's freedom from the hated English deny others the same opportunity?
We will be a free country and there is nothing that all the quislings and collaborators in the world can do to stop us.
4

Castaway,

27/09/2008 00:26:42
Kerr,if Scotland was to become independent,it would have to leave the EU and reapply to get back in,"
Then so would what remained of the UK they would have to leave the EU and reapply to get back in.
Emile Noel,one of Europe's founding fathers and long-serving secretary-general of the European Commission, who said Scottish independence would create two states, which would have "equal status with each other and the other states".Scotland and the remainder of the UK would be equally entitled, and obliged, to continue the existing full membership of the EU.
The late Lord MacKenzie-Stuart,if Scotland had to re-apply, so would the rest. I am puzzled at the suggestion that there would be a difference in the status of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom in terms of community law if the Act of Union was dissolved."
Eamonn Gallagher, former Director-General of the European Commission, who has stated that "it's inconceivable the EU wouldn't welcome an independent Scotland with open arms" Independence would leave Scotland and something called the rest' in the same legal boat
Under the current EU treaties, there are no rules on how and if a country can leave the union. The rules simply say that "this treaty has been entered for an unlimited time".
Theoretically, a country could very well leave the EU by tearing up the accession treaty and "negotiating it in reverse", but such a 'secession treaty' would have to be agreed upon by the other member states.
I think this would take years,the Scottish people like the British people are citizens of the EU.
5

Evolution in action,

St Andrews 27/09/2008 00:29:03
Complete garbage! No one in the USA gives Scotland a second thought. Well maybe for a few days every 3 years if the Open is here.
6

somerferg,

perth 27/09/2008 00:32:28

Hambo
- I always so enjoy your articles - so well balanced and never a hint of your pro-onionist views. So as usual Scotland is relegated to the position of not even a third world country because no-one in the EU or apparently the whole world would want us to join their clubs. Bull$hitt.
7

JayDeeTee,

27/09/2008 00:33:00
"He said: "There would be private horror in both cases because they would see it as a weakening of the United Kingdom.."

But how can that be if we are a bunch of sponging parasites, as we are portrayed?
8

Col. Blimp­IV*,

27/09/2008 00:49:19
I'm sure the yanks are horrified at the thought of independence from the United Kingdom(Usually referred to as England).

That is why they have a big Tea-Party every 4th of July...to celebrate Benedict Arnold Day.
9

subrosa,

27/09/2008 00:50:42
Where's Kinlochard? I bet his lordship's neighbours aren't impressed.
10

Rasco,

27/09/2008 00:50:57
Lord Kerr so Scotland would have to leave does that mean that the EU would have no control of our fishing and what about the oil would the EU not wan't a share of that when are we going to get balanced reporting from press and media.
11

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 27/09/2008 01:05:24
I cant believe this papers prints these kind of stories

This almost as bad as saying an Independent Scotland cant afford to show Eastenders or Coronatian street
12

2dogs in D.C.,

27/09/2008 01:08:26
I've no dog in this race, but I say-Go for independence.
13

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 27/09/2008 01:09:58
Lord Kerr says American politicians "would see it [an independent Scotland] as a weakening of the United Kingdom which they see as the principle European, and possibly global, ally."

Some politicians would see it that way because they had been influenced by the work(?) of Professor Tom Gallagher of Bradford University in England, who spent a good part of this year spreading disinformation about Scotland to the so-called National Endowment for Democracy (NED) in Washington DC.

Those politicians love democracy for the United States but not for countries that do not toe the American line.

Most Americans who know anything about Scotland wonder why Scotland isn't independent already.

(BTW, Hamish Macdonell, you should learn the difference between "principle" and "principal".)
14

FrancesP,

27/09/2008 01:10:02
A hardcore unionist deploys a shopping-list of possible lines of argument against independence in the hope that one or two might stick - where's the story here?

Kerr must know perfectly well, though, that the stuff about the EU is deeply disingenuous. Most lawyers accept that there's a good deal of ambiguity about the legal position, so for him to claim he 'knows' that Scotland would have to leave the EU for several years is absurd. Aside from the attitude of other EU states, it would also depend on the outcome of detailed negotiations on the terms of independence, ie. will Scotland 'leave' the UK, or will the former state be abolished? If the latter is the case, there's no way Scotland could be asked to leave the EU for a period of time withou the same applying to England.
15

The Pict.,

Canada 27/09/2008 01:11:01
Here we go again.If his 'lordship' spouted the rubbish attributed to him then all the English er British lackies can move to their beloved England with his Lordship upon the independence. The vast majority of Americans know nothing about Scotland or any other country for that matter unless they've bombed it into submission.
POINT: Who says Scotland needs America anyway? Does Scotland want to buy part of AIG ? The Unionists probably do.

VOTE SNP and let's get rid of these lackies. One thing Scotland can't afford to pay for these complicated spine installation operations for the lackies.

SLAINTE MHATH
16

neltrich,

Milwaukee, Wisconsin USA 27/09/2008 01:20:17
What a crock! There are loads of Americans who would be happy to support and applaud an independent Scotland. Until our own elections are over, however, I'm doubtful that Scottish independence will even be a blip on the American radar.
17

The Pict.,

Canada 27/09/2008 01:22:21
As for the lie that American Business would not do business with Scotland. There are are a large number of Scottish businessmen in America as well as Canada. As a businessman myself I know some of them and they would be DELIGHTED to do business in an INDEPENDENT Scotland as I would. All of those American and Canadian Scottish businessmen say they are SCOTTISH ( THAT INCLUDES ME) not british = english on the North American continent.
slainte mhath
18

Team Scotland,

FC UK No! 27/09/2008 01:24:57

When Greenland gained autonomy from Denmark in 1979 it remained an EEC member until it voted 52% to 48% November 1983 to leave. Due to having extensive territorial wars the EU has been wooing it ever since.

Whether the USA is for against or indifferent is of no consequence, they would simply have to accept it.
19

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 27/09/2008 01:29:13
This was the argument the Edinburgh bankers made back in the 1770s - that Scottish investment would dry up in the north American colonies. Well I suppose the Schenectady New York traders did upsticks and head for Montreal but their prophesies for the future success of the upstart United States was a bit wide of the mark.

Ah well, so Lord Kerr thinks that Scotland will get thrown out of the EU is even more fanciful. After all I think Flanders and Wallonia are more likely to become independent of each other long before Salmond's referendum and the negotiations that would ensue. Ah, the thought of poor Brussels bureaucrats having to spend their expenses in a non-member territory and pass through the customs posts to get to their offices. Not very likely. So he believes that a more than likely net EU contributor with a great chunk of fishing grounds and oil fields would be kept out, so that the EU can bring Montenegro and Moldova into the elite of European nations.

The man is a fool. How he came to be a diplomat, God can only knows.
20

Scullion,

Canada 27/09/2008 01:33:52
Thomas Jefferson was another American who commented that a United Kingdom was simply "common sense".
Hard to argue with that fellow.
21

eDUCATIon,

27/09/2008 01:36:32
18

We will be when we get the Bomb.......
22

Brian Hill,

27/09/2008 01:56:02
What a load of unmitigated tosh. We heard the same doom and gloom before the Scottish Parliament was set up, except then the sky was also going to fall in and the sun would be turned off.

Then if the SNP ever became the Government the first born in every family would drop dead just as the moon fell from the heavens and landed on Auchtertool as a punishment and a warning to the Scots to stop being naughty.

Your Lordliness, you're problem is these fantasies of yours don't match up to the realities of this SNP Government, realities which the voting public love.

Independence is a state of mind, it has arrived, get over it, move on.
23

Weegiewarbler,

Docked tonight 27/09/2008 02:32:33
Looking at the numbers - Alex or the dear Lord.

Only one of them is capable of being "right" here.

Europe Doesn't need an independant Scotland.
Europe want's an independant Scotland.

Europe now has to look at England for Scottish energy (alternatiive and carbon based) - they're up in arms at the English posturing to abandon carbon targets (one issue).
Dealing with Independant Scotland will be more difficult or easier?

Scottish currency is reportedly set to be stronger than English - or we bring more stability to the Euro - good for Europe or not?

Scots Emigrees have long been a mainstay of the the free worlds innovation - nope - don't need those any longer either.

Scotland - About the oldest country in Europe with relatively intact borders - nope - traditions mean little perhaps.

Scotland - Already has MEP's and is already pretty well integrated into the EU - cheaper to create the upheaval of disentangling that we think.

The US - Enough Scots' died for their freedom - they'll likely get over it we suspect - after all, Washington HAD to cross the Delaware as he recruited a "new" fighting force of "Carolinian Highlanders".

Travel the real world - we do - Scots are universally admired and respected (OK, maybe not the current PM?).

The list can continue - but the vein is enonugh
24

Guga II,

Rockall 27/09/2008 02:38:07
What a load of unmitigated Unionist bulldust. Does this Uncle Tom think that anyone, other than his Unionist buddies are actually going to pay any heed to him?
25

Edward,

27/09/2008 03:07:30
I’m not sure which is worse ; Hamish MacDonnell for actually writing this drivel (or was he given it by someone in the Labour Party?) or Lord Kerr of Kinlochard for talk a load of unmitigated rubbish!
The ‘story’ tries to set out the credentials of Lord Kerr, by stating first that he is ‘most experienced and influential diplomat’ in order for the reader to be lulled into a sense that this man should know what he is talking about. But when it comes out with complete rubbish as ‘Scotland would struggle to get into the EU’ then we should realise this is just a piece of pro union, anti Scottish propaganda of the most childish kind!
What the ‘experienced’ Lord Kerr fails to grasp is that its not about Scotland ‘leaving the United Kingdom’ but in reality the dissolution of the United Kingdom!. With Scottish Independence , there is actually no United Kingdom. The Act of Union was only a union of Scotland and England. Lord Kerr may have been a good diplomat, but he is surely clueless about the history and make up of the Union.
Scotland, like England will remain part of the EU after the dissolution of the Union (that is if England wishes to remain in the EU)
As for American business. American business will continue to invest wherever they think is best. Americans were never put off investing in Ireland when the Irish broke
Free of Britain, so there is no rhyme or reason for that to change. Lord Kerr is being a tad presumptuous about a country (the USA), which he claims to be experienced in.

26

Edward,

27/09/2008 03:14:14
The classic Hamish MacDonnell comment 'Lord Kerr's intervention, on both these issues, represents a blow to SNP arguments over Scottish independence'
Erm I dont think so Hamish or was this still the Labour breifing your reading from?
Lord Kerr's comments are not very relevent as they are ill informed, which is surprising considering a man of his education and experience
27

John Muir,

Botany Bay 27/09/2008 03:22:27
I say, this lord chappie sounds suspiciously like one of those rabid Unionists fellows we often hear from on these pages.

The tone and content has an eerily familiar quality, and as a lord he would certainly have enough time on his hands to spout this drivel to his heart’s content.

Especially now that fox hunting has been banned. The annual trip down to the House of Lords is probably the only exercise he gets.
28

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 27/09/2008 03:56:29
#22 Scullion
-
That was then, this is now.
29

Helene,

Ontario, Canada 27/09/2008 04:02:21
Check paragraph 4 in this online version. It appears that this principled lord has got his principles and principals mixed up.
Perhaps the good lord's principal point though is - to whom would the USA turn when in need of a European ally - who speaks the same language? Would we see both Brown and Salmond (or their successors at some point in the future) jetting off in tandem across the Atlantic, to pose, along with the US president, as a happy trio on the lawns of the White House? And Americans thinking......but they're both Scots.
Oh well, it's just the principle of the matter.
30

Ubi,

Edinburgh 27/09/2008 04:07:13
It's complete rubbish to say that America would shun an independent Scotland. Does anyone seriously believe that Merca would not take an opportunistic view of an independent Scotland? The temptation of a bridgehead to Europe would simply be too appealing for them to resist.

Think trillions of their fine dollars speeding across the ocean to be Merca's favourite friend.
31

Mark Renton,

Edinburgh 27/09/2008 04:15:26
What a load of bluddy carp.
32

drahcir,

pittsburgh, pa, usa 27/09/2008 04:34:03
the usa is in a total financial meltdown, i can't see how they can meet their global financial obligations anymore !!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGYA5gbMgfg
33

The Pict.,

Canada 27/09/2008 05:46:30
# 28 Edward. Why do you know 'lord'Kerr is educated ? and just what experience does he have?
1 year 20 times or 20 years once?

Also there are many people so called well educated but they lack COMMON SENSE which is not so common. Laird Kerr is one of those.

A 'Laird' status means nothing. Many 'U' students cheat their way through or they are dummies who pay and get their diplomas/degrees that way. I'm talking in general terms here.

Most millionaires who I've met DO NOT have a university Education.

SLAINTE MHATH
34

Yankee girl,

California 27/09/2008 05:52:21
Poppycock!! What's this guy smokin'?
35

donald,

glasgow 27/09/2008 06:08:11
Lord Kerr probably complied of Americans supporting Irish Independence.

Maybe he wants the Seventh Cavalry to come to his aid at his Battle of Little Big Britain.
36

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 27/09/2008 06:08:22
Friends simply "Google" this twit!
He is on so many boards it is entirely possible that the splinter that he got in his Archie has now reached his brain. With diplomats like him is it any wonder that “George” along with “Tony” and “Gordon” cooked up the WMD’s to get to the “Oil”
The fact that the Editor of this production allowed this to go to print allows me to assume that this has been placed there by the Westmunster authorities.
37

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 06:12:55
Salmond’s claim that “all serious international legal opinion” supports his party’s contention is misguided, at best.

Opinion is certainly divided, but Lord Kerr is by no means alone in his opinion. Here are various supporting statements:

1. Prof Robert Hazell, Director of the Constitution Unit at University College London:

“Scotland would have to re-apply for membership of the EU. Renewed membership is not guaranteed. The reaction to Kosovo's claim to independence suggests that EU member states like Spain might block Scotland's application, for fear of encouraging similar claims from the Basque country and Catalonia.”

2. Dr Joe Borg, EU Fisheries Commissioner:

“Legally speaking, the continuation of the membership would remain with the rest of the UK - less Scotland. And, therefore, Scotland, as a newly independent state, would have to apply for membership.”

3. Dr Lorand Bartels, lecturer in international economic law at Edinburgh University:

“Both as a matter of international law and as a matter of EU law, Scotland would have to negotiate its accession to the EU as a new member state.”
38

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 06:13:23
4. Dr Matthew Happold, then Research Officer at the British Institute of International and Comparative Law, in a 1999 paper:

“Were Scotland to gain independence, it would be the rump UK, not Scotland, that would inherit membership of the EU. Scotland’s subsequent route to EU membership could well be a tortuous one. The SNP’s use of the phrase Independence in Europe seeks to persuade the Scottish electorate that it can have its cake and eat it, that Scotland can have both the benefits of independence and the security of membership of the European Union. However, the real situation is that an independent Scotland might end up with all the insecurities of independence and none of the benefits of EU membership.”

5. Neil Mitchison, the European Commission’s representative in Scotland:

“The situation is unprecedented and therefore negotiations would be needed. Things would have to be discussed and negotiated.”

6. Dr Jo Murkens, in a 2001 paper for the Constitution Unit entitled “Scotland's Place in Europe”:

“If Scotland were to apply to become a member timing would matter because the EU is in a process of enlargement and the terms that an independent Scotland could negotiate would differ if the EU had 28 rather than the current 15 Member States ... The process of negotiation is unlikely to be easy even for Scotland. Evidence from other candidate countries suggests that the EU uses its pre-accession bargaining strength to extract the maximum concessions from acceding parties. Member States are obviously aware that once candidates have joined, existing Member States will never have such an advantage again.”
39

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 06:13:38
See also:

http://www.scottishunionist.com/2008/08/independence-in-europe-highly-debatable.html
40

Pilrig,

Livingston 27/09/2008 06:22:48
39 - who elected them ?
41

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:23:29
39 40 41

Yet none of that is convincing nor definitive on its own its still all opinion.
As you say opinion is divided and all there is to judge the contitutional set up is previous precedence.
And that favours Scotland and the SNPs position.
As was discussed on these blogs before the legal precedence was set with Greenland and Denmark.

So on the unionist side there is opinion or more accurately bias opinion and wishful thinking and on the SNPs side there is legal precedence and history.

And lets face it if the US cant support self determination and independence then what is the 4th of July celebrations all about?
42

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:24:09
43

Should read constitutional.
43

Finnzz,

Offshore 27/09/2008 06:28:40
Kerr has obviously just been wheeled out to spout the usual pro-unionist twaddle. The trouble is, the arguments he puts forward are factually false and are so easily rebuffed by anyone who has a clue to how things work in the real world.
American investment will actually pour into Scotland once local control of Corporation tax is achieved, as will English. After all, the lure of Mammon has no boundaries. That is why the idea of Independance has such a large following in the business community.
44

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 06:28:54
#43 parcel

Greenland didn't secede from Denmark. There's no precedent there.

I agree that none of this is certain. That's why Alex Salmond's dogmatic claim that “Scotland is already a member of the EU and that would continue” is so misleading.
45

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:30:11
39

“Legally speaking, the continuation of the membership would remain with the rest of the UK - less Scotland. And, therefore, Scotland, as a newly independent state, would have to apply for membership.”

Problem with that statement is there is no "United Kingdoms" without Scotland. There are only 2 "United Kingdoms" within the union now Scotland and England.
Wales is a principality and NI is a province.
When Scotland gains its independence the UK and all of its present treaties obligations etc no longer apply and its back to square one for everybody.
If you wish to dispute this I would dearly love to see your legal precedence or even historical precedence.
I do hope you try to use Ireland.
46

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 06:31:28
#43 parcel

I would also point out some of the selective citation used by the SNP. Look at post #4, for example, specifically the snippets of quotes by th late Émile Noêl, former President of the European Commission.

His remark, in full, was actually as follows:

“There is no precedent or provision for the expulsion of a member state, therefore Scottish Independence would create two new member states out of one. The remainder of the United Kingdom would not be in a more powerful position than Scotland. Unless Scotland expressed a wish to come out of Europe while gaining Independence, the will of the people would be interpreted as a desire to retain the European status quo.”

Note: “no precedent”, not even Greenland.

And anyway, who said anything about the “expulsion of a member state? The United Kingdom is the member, not Scotland. So it’s hard to understand why the SNP would imagine this statement to support their “automatic membership” contention.
47

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:32:31
46

So what is your term for it? and did Greenland not remain within the EU when they "parted" from Denmark.
And Scotland wont be "seceding" either. They will be returning their MPS to their original parliament and disolving the union of parliaments.
Or is this not a union of equal parliaments anymore?
48

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 06:34:42
#47 parcel

Re: “there is no "United Kingdoms" without Scotland”

There would be a successor state: the "UK less Scotland", which would continue as the UK. Any other view - that the UK would "explode" into its four constituent parts, for example - is pure fantasy.

And if that's the level the thread has reached, I'll leave you to it! Bye.
49

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:35:20
48

Yes of course as I said before all you have is opinion not legal fact nor precendence unless you can prove me wrong on this point? Others have different opinions thats what they are for.
Many people used to have the opinion the world was flat but nobody had definitive proof didnt stop them expressing that opinion though.
50

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 06:35:31
#49 parcel

Greenland did NOT part from Denmark.

Now, breakfast.
51

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:38:31
50

Says who? more opinion? how can a UK be a UK with only one Kingdom? what you have left would be the Kingdom of England the principality of Wales and the province of NI which by the way is bound by treaty equally to Scotland as it is to the rest of the present UK.
Wales was already part of the Westminster parliament before 1707 NI came after. So who gets NI? will it have to split yet again? no legal nor constitutional precedence there either nor is it clear and consise.
52

glassbenmhor,

27/09/2008 06:39:23
The Good Peer,

Maybe has never heard of 'ANDREW CARNAGIE'

Maybe he has never seen the ' fellow on the deck of an old wooden man-o-war, that resides upon PAGE No.1 of the US Passport.
AND his Name John Paul Jones founder of the United States Navy born,yes SCOTLAND

How I could go on and on and on and on and, yes on.
But why bother, 1707 is months away from the 'Garbage Can'after which we as the good Peer knows full well Scotland will have her own 'Tea Party'---tickets only!!!
53

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:39:31
52

So in you own words what did they do?
54

glassbenmhor,

27/09/2008 06:42:05
MY Lord,

What are your thoughts on England without the North Sea?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????.

'THIRD WORLD' prehaps
55

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:44:25
AM2

If the UK still exists it will be the UK of crowns not parliaments and will still include Scotland unless we decide to go republic after independence.
With the union of crowns then all nations within the union of crowns should still have the international obligations of the Union of parliaments including its treaties.
So the UK can only exist as a union of crowns after Scotland gains its independence not a union of parliaments and will still include Scotland.
56

glassbenmhor,

27/09/2008 06:47:02
AS THE LIGHTS FINALL GO ON IN UNIONISTS HEADS ALL OVER SCOTLAND ---------

THE LIGHTS GO OUT ALL OVER THE HOME COUNTIES!
57

glassbenmhor,

27/09/2008 06:52:20
And then what,

Scotland's new direction and all her Scandinavian friends and there structural endeavours will come to our neighbors rescue in reconnection of power and natural resources---but by god at a fair PRICE!!!
58

williamx,

canada 27/09/2008 07:03:38
If Scotland gets its independence then we have two countries, Scotland and England If Scotland has to reapply to the EU then so does England unless of course the EU thinks Britain is England and the original treaty to join is phrased as England. Some how I don't think so.
59

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 07:05:21
AM2

If England decided to withdraw from the union would the UK still exist?
60

glassbenmhor,

27/09/2008 07:06:04
I herd Bernard Ingram spitting with rage at Scotland's disloyalty with the onset of Independence,
as though we had been lavished with our very existence and "NOWT" had been seen in return.

Well a boy could say many things in reply, but one comes readily to mind,

in the Army Regimental glory is counted in Battle Honours and let me tell you all when it comes to the Scottish Regiments the numbers are unbelievably high,
this nation of ours has bleed to death in every far flung part of the globe imaginable, over the past three centuries.
The brighter side of this is that over the years a connection was made which in no small measure will pass to bare comfort in this bright new age ahead.

61

glassbenmhor,

27/09/2008 07:17:50
I seriously think Gordon Brown better make an appearance in Glenrothes,

because unlike the journo clowns ,Tom Brown and crew think they know,

most of us know the 'Kingdom' truly, and the one thing you don't do to a Fifer is-----

NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT!!!!!
62

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/09/2008 07:20:38
I see our wise Irish sage is back.

There have hardly been any deletions of late!

I'm sure that'll change today!
63

Colin Wilson,

27/09/2008 07:22:14
"If Scotland was to become independent, it would have to leave the EU and reapply to get back in"

But in constitutional terms, Scotland wouldn't become "independent", which is what happens with colonies and annexed territories. In Scotland's case, what we'd have is the dissolution of a political union established by treaty, following which the two successor states would be equal in constitutional terms. Both would remain in the EU, or both would have to rejoin.

for this and other reasons, I've long believed it to be an error to talk of Scottish "independence". I think it's much better to say "constitutional renormalisation".
64

Boy Wonder,

27/09/2008 07:24:13
When Scotland becomes Independent again ... and it will ... we'll see just who is first to rock up to congratulate us and ask to be our best friend. I suspect they'd have to be mighty fast to beat the Yanks.

And Europe won't want to let us go. They have too much invested in the country.

Lord Kerr .. you just outed yourself as a Unionist!
65

FTH22inarow,

27/09/2008 07:28:04
what a pile of unionist claptrap
66

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/09/2008 07:28:07
Here we go again.

Another 'horror' headline written by scurrilous rogues.

We will be getting these on a daily basis until the by election humiliation is complete.

No doubt our resident half-witted 'expert on everything', Professor Midwinter will be around again soon, writing whatever he is told by his London masters.

Vote SNP, the ONLY party for ALL the people of Scotland.
67

The Nightmare on Wall Street,

Algiers 27/09/2008 07:32:24
Another example of bias from The Scotsman. Lord Kerr? Who? Has he stood in an election in Scotland so that he can express his views and put them to the democratic test?

So the EU would welcome Bulgaria and Romania, the separatists from Slovakia (ex Czechoslovakia) and those nasty Baltic separatists from Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia who broke away from the Soviet Union but Scotland would be frozen out, leaving Norway and Scotland holding the bulk of Europe's oil and gas outside the EU?

The US will not give a second thought ("t_ss" not allowed by Scotsman) about Scotland. Most of them do not even know where it is? Has President Bush ever been in Scotland. Lord Kerr? Mr Macdonell?





68

Alan Reid,

NZ 27/09/2008 07:33:18
More garbage from this rag I see. Nothing changes and I see Tory boy AM is back, with his drivel.
69

Castaway,

27/09/2008 07:42:38
#39:Therefore being citizens of the EU the Scottish people will be stripped of their EU citizenship on the day Scotland became independent or when would this happen ?
If this has to happen to allow Scotland negotiate its accession to the EU as a new member state what of those EU citizens living in Scotland and Scottish citizens living in other EU countries they would become foreigners in their respective countries ?
No way that would be allowed to happen the EU will accomodate both Scotland and the rest from day one.Plus Scotland’s energy reserves
Oil: 62.4% of the EU’s proven reserves
Gas: 12.5% of the EU’s proven reserves
Coal: 69% of UK reserves and 8.3% of EU
70

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 07:52:44
71

Thats right all of the EU citizens living and working in Scotland will automatically have their rights to live and work in an Independent Scotland under the EU treaties revoked overnight according to the unionist spin. Including English Irish and Welsh.
And all Scots living and working in the EU will be deported back to Scotland.
I am just trying to recall when this ever happened before? and when this precedence was set maybe AM2 can help he is the definitive answer to everything.
71

Hugo of Garven,

27/09/2008 08:08:51
We are doomed! We are doomed, a tell ye.

Another 'fear' story.

I remain positive. We CAN do it.
72

Geoff,

sa 27/09/2008 08:09:09
have not read any of the above comments yet to give you my 'untainted' opinion(bet u can not wait. I personally oppose scottish independence but should that rueful day ever arrive i think scotland would have no problem gaining recognition worldwide and would be admitted to all the major world bodies. The argument that the UK would be weakened is valid and i can see why this would be of concern to the Yanks as of course it should be to the people of Great Britain and northern ireland!1 The comparisons to other seperatist regions of Europe-not altogether valid. The Basque Movement for example has a violent element that has hardened attitudes on both sides in Spain and indeed amongst the Basques themselves- the situation in northern ireland a priori current accord is a better analogy. The scottish independence movement is peaceful and constitutional. Any region in a democratic europe should in theory be entitled to Independence BUT my personal view is that further balkanisation is not the way to go. A federal system that recognises identities within Unions is a way to achieve the best of both worlds. Unionists must argue and demonstrate positive cases for their cause. Scaremongering is not the way altho legit concerns must be argued.
73

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 08:15:57
Independence is not a bad thing, but the problem with Scottish independence is that it isnt necessary!

Salmond first and foremost is a freedom fighter on a mission to dissolve the union. Secondly, his mission and his agenda stem not from sound economic principles and a true need for liberation and civil liberty, but from a life of anti union rhetoric.

He will say that the SNP are not anti English, but ofcourse we all know he must say that in public. All the SNP supporters will also tell us that they are not anti English, but again, we all know the score!

"sent them homeward tae think again" and "WHO' proud Edward's army"

And my personal favourite "but we can still rise now and be a nation again"

The entire song is written and sang from the point of Scotland being some oppressed little nothing state at the mercy of the big bad English - and just as we sent than homeward tae think again over 700 years ago, we will do the same again.....AYE FREEEEEEEEEEDOM!

It is pathetic to say the least.
74

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 08:16:07
74

It would only be a concern to the US government not to US business nor the population.
The US constitution is all about self determination and Independence.
They cannot deny for Scotland what Scots fought and died for to help them acheive for themselves.
Its just another nonsense story to add to the list.
75

beckypumps1,

fife 27/09/2008 08:21:27
The Hootsman sinks to new lows of bias. The sunday sport better watch its back I feel the hootsman may pinch their clothes (underwear) as the reach for new readers.
76

,

27/09/2008 08:23:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
77

Geoff,

sa 27/09/2008 08:24:19
75 Media 1-howsit media! Have some of your cold Cape weather in Durbs today-hope u are well!
"Scottish Independence..isn't necessary" Exactly! My point entirely.The quest for Scottish Independence is an unecessary attempt to unscramble the eggs! David Cameron(50% Scottish) interviewed on Sky News yesterday spoke passionately of his love of his nation Britain! Yet many Nationalists on this forum constantly tell us that there is no such country!!

Some Chicken, some Neck!!!!
78

Porry,

The Continent 27/09/2008 08:25:18
What monetary resources are left in the US of A anyhow that could be invested in Scotland? Isn't each and every cent presently tied up in the big bailout? Haven't the Yanks already asked other countries, including the UK, to help out financially? And as to the EU, since, as a part of the UK, Scotland is already a member, it will remain a member after having become independent. However, membership terms would then be the same as for any continental EU country, no extras any more.
79

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/09/2008 08:26:43
This thread is becoming overpowering.

Our resident Irish sage reappears and now our resident South African nutter puts in an appearance!!

What next Highland Mighty/British Pride/Ewan M?

Might as well head for Glenrothes and meet some sensible people!!

Vote SNP, the ONLY party for ALL the people of Scotland
80

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 27/09/2008 08:29:14
During the 6 week Velvet Revolution when the Czechs and Slovaks argued over going their separate ways the US State Department was unhappy about this prospect and made similar noises in an attempt to keep Czechoslovakia in one piece.

The US is now one of the largest investors in both the Czech Republic and Slovakia!
81

Geoff,

sa 27/09/2008 08:30:42
76 suchaparcel etc-it would only be a concern for the US government-but that is a big concern as the government represent the people and business. Also the US constitution is about self determination yes, but self determination has its limits. For example, would the US government support or encourage the Alaskan Independence Movement?
I think not.
82

Colkitto,

River Cyde 27/09/2008 08:31:38
My sources in the USA have said they would be delighted at Scotland becoming an independent nation again.Although they will not say publicly that that is the case.
Other sources that I have say we would gain entry in to the EU no problem. In fact most countries would welcome us in with open arms.

So who's right here, me or Lord Kerr ?
83

Argyll on line,

Strachur 27/09/2008 08:33:12
Are there no depth to which this sad apology for a newspaper will stoop?
84

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 27/09/2008 08:35:31
It's uncomfortable feeling to be in agreement with Salmond about anything but I believe his point of view is far more likely.

However one looks at it, Scotland is already a part of the EU and a bit of UK domestic constitutional tweaking surely wouldn't affect this. If Lord Kerr is right, the EU is so constitutionally weak that it isn't worth bothering about anyway. However I can imagine a scenario where, if Scotland became independent of the rest of the UK, there would be a window of opportunity to resile from the EU.

As a geographic but non-constitutional part of Europe, Scotland could find itself as a very important and economically valuable conduit between the EU countries and North America (indeed, the rest of the world). A sort of upmarket Hong Kong, if you like.
85

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 27/09/2008 08:35:36
The Federal alternative avoids all the silly SNP nonsense.

The childish insults his lordship has attracted from SNP exemplifies the quality of SNP logic.

There are too many independent nations that are failing for SNP to justify its main claims.
86

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 08:44:50
83

No they dont they represent themselves. Its US business which runs the government not the other way around and if US business find profit in an independent Scotland then they will do business if not they wont.
Thats what business does.
87

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 08:47:21
87

There is no federal alternative within the act of union and union of crowns only outside of the union of parliaments and the union of crowns.
Anything else is just devolution.
88

Dr. James Wilkie,

Helensburgh 27/09/2008 08:48:01
I have rarely read such nonsensical scaremongering, and from a professional diplomat too. Of course Scotland would have to make a formal application for individual membership of the European Union, in the unlikely event that EU membership was desirable, but the same would apply to all the other regional and global international organisations. There would be no rejection by Brussels - the EU needs Scotland a good deal more than Scotland needs the EU. In reality, EEA membership would cover all of Scotland's economic needs in Europe.

US business is not noted for its scrupulousness regarding national borders, and it can safely be said that possible discrimination against an independent Scotland is a figment of Lord Kerr's imagination. There is such a thing as world government nowadays, and the World Trade Organisation would have something to say on the matter if the EU or anyone else adopted punitive economic measures against an independent Scotland, especially when no such measures have been taken against the two dozen other newly independent states that have emerged since 1989.

I am in favour of Scottish membership of all the major European organisations with the exception of the EU, which I think would not be in Scotland's interests, and I do not foresee any disadvantages for Scotland arising out of such an arrangement. As for US hostility, I am afraid Lord Kerr is not living in the real world.

89

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 08:48:20
87

Are they failing to be independent? how many of them have asked to join the union?
90

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 08:55:47
90
"I am afraid Lord Kerr is not living in the real world."

All he has done is given his own politically biased opinion not based on any evidence or substanciated facts but on his own as he said "beliefs".
Its only value is political propaganda nothing more.
91

GM,

27/09/2008 08:58:37
And once more AM2 presents a series of quotes, which are in fact nothing more than *opinions* in an attempt to establish the 'fact' that Scotland would have a tortous or no route at all into the EU...

laughable.


Ah, the spinmeister appears to be back and in his full glory of obfuscation, lies, deceit and negativity.

There was a day when people fell for all that, but even labour in scotland are coming around to the concept that it doesn't work anymore. Shame AM2 will be the last