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Diplomat warns of US 'horror' over Scottish independence

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Published Date: 27 September 2008
By Hamish Macdonell
ONE of Britain's most experienced and influential diplomats has warned that inward investment from the United States could dry up if Scotland becomes independent.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, a former British ambassador to the US and former head of the Diplomatic Service, also said he believed an independent Scotland would struggle to get into the EU because of likely opposition from countries with their own separ
atist movements.

Speaking to The Scotsman, Lord Kerr, who was born and educated in Scotland, said he believed that whoever won this year's US presidential election would react in the same way to Scottish independence.

He said: "There would be private horror in both cases because they would see it as a weakening of the United Kingdom which they see as the principle European, and possibly global, ally. That would be true if either Obama or McCain was president."

He added: "Scottish independence would be seen by American politicians as a bad thing but they would be smart enough to say that in private, not in public – they would regard it as none of their business in public.

"But, as for American business, they would also see it as a bad thing; they would regard it as bad news if they were thinking of investing in Scotland."

Lord Kerr, an independent cross-bench peer who was ambassador and UK permanent representative to the European Communities/European Union during John Major's premiership, also predicted a tough time for an independent Scotland in Europe.

"If Scotland was to become independent, it would have to leave the EU and reapply to get back in," he said. "People in Scotland love to believe it isn't true, but getting back in would not be easy.

"I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, but it would not be easy. Scotland would have to overcome the objections of countries like Spain which doesn't want Catalonia to go the same way.

"In all probability, the Scots would get in but they would be out for quite a time before they got back."

Lord Kerr's intervention, on both these issues, represents a blow to SNP arguments over Scottish independence.

Alex Salmond has argued the opposite: first, that an independent Scotland would attract new inward investment, particularly from the US; and also that Scotland would become a member of the EU in a "seamless" fashion immediately after independence.

A source close to the First Minister said: "This is palpable nonsense. Scotland is already an integral and valuable part of the European Union.

"All serious international legal opinion is agreed that an independent Scotland would remain part of the EU and be warmly welcomed by our European neighbours.

"An independent Scotland, with a highly skilled workforce and lower corporation tax rates than our neighbours, would also be an attractive destination for inward investment from the United States and elsewhere."





The full article contains 480 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 26 September 2008 10:18 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish independence
 
1

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 27/09/2008 00:16:24
So Lord Kerr thinks to himself, I'm board, I know I'll phone the Scotsman and give them my views on Independence.

I wonder what other 'unbiased' sources the Scotsman will just happen upon before a certain by-election
2

Vivas,

Edinburgh 27/09/2008 00:19:25
Is this the same US of A who (ahem) boldly supports the rights of people to (supposedly) democratic sovereign government in Georgia and the whole Eastern bloc ? Even to the extent of tacit military support through NATO ? Laughable.

If we gain independence it'll be becuase the people of Scotland say so, through the ballot box. When that day comes, you can kiss my my hairy Scottish errse "your lordship".
3

PJ07,

27/09/2008 00:20:06
Usual Bilge. If Scotland would have to apply for membership of the EU, then so would the newly independent England.

Get round that if you can?

Why would a country that gained it's freedom from the hated English deny others the same opportunity?
We will be a free country and there is nothing that all the quislings and collaborators in the world can do to stop us.
4

Evolution in action,

St Andrews 27/09/2008 00:29:03
Complete garbage! No one in the USA gives Scotland a second thought. Well maybe for a few days every 3 years if the Open is here.
5

somerferg,

perth 27/09/2008 00:32:28

Hambo
- I always so enjoy your articles - so well balanced and never a hint of your pro-onionist views. So as usual Scotland is relegated to the position of not even a third world country because no-one in the EU or apparently the whole world would want us to join their clubs. Bull$hitt.
6

subrosa,

27/09/2008 00:50:42
Where's Kinlochard? I bet his lordship's neighbours aren't impressed.
7

Rasco,

27/09/2008 00:50:57
Lord Kerr so Scotland would have to leave does that mean that the EU would have no control of our fishing and what about the oil would the EU not wan't a share of that when are we going to get balanced reporting from press and media.
8

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 27/09/2008 01:05:24
I cant believe this papers prints these kind of stories

This almost as bad as saying an Independent Scotland cant afford to show Eastenders or Coronatian street
9

2dogs in D.C.,

27/09/2008 01:08:26
I've no dog in this race, but I say-Go for independence.
10

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 27/09/2008 01:09:58
Lord Kerr says American politicians "would see it [an independent Scotland] as a weakening of the United Kingdom which they see as the principle European, and possibly global, ally."

Some politicians would see it that way because they had been influenced by the work(?) of Professor Tom Gallagher of Bradford University in England, who spent a good part of this year spreading disinformation about Scotland to the so-called National Endowment for Democracy (NED) in Washington DC.

Those politicians love democracy for the United States but not for countries that do not toe the American line.

Most Americans who know anything about Scotland wonder why Scotland isn't independent already.

(BTW, Hamish Macdonell, you should learn the difference between "principle" and "principal".)
11

FrancesP,

27/09/2008 01:10:02
A hardcore unionist deploys a shopping-list of possible lines of argument against independence in the hope that one or two might stick - where's the story here?

Kerr must know perfectly well, though, that the stuff about the EU is deeply disingenuous. Most lawyers accept that there's a good deal of ambiguity about the legal position, so for him to claim he 'knows' that Scotland would have to leave the EU for several years is absurd. Aside from the attitude of other EU states, it would also depend on the outcome of detailed negotiations on the terms of independence, ie. will Scotland 'leave' the UK, or will the former state be abolished? If the latter is the case, there's no way Scotland could be asked to leave the EU for a period of time withou the same applying to England.
12

The Pict.,

Canada 27/09/2008 01:11:01
Here we go again.If his 'lordship' spouted the rubbish attributed to him then all the English er British lackies can move to their beloved England with his Lordship upon the independence. The vast majority of Americans know nothing about Scotland or any other country for that matter unless they've bombed it into submission.
POINT: Who says Scotland needs America anyway? Does Scotland want to buy part of AIG ? The Unionists probably do.

VOTE SNP and let's get rid of these lackies. One thing Scotland can't afford to pay for these complicated spine installation operations for the lackies.

SLAINTE MHATH
13

neltrich,

Milwaukee, Wisconsin USA 27/09/2008 01:20:17
What a crock! There are loads of Americans who would be happy to support and applaud an independent Scotland. Until our own elections are over, however, I'm doubtful that Scottish independence will even be a blip on the American radar.
14

The Pict.,

Canada 27/09/2008 01:22:21
As for the lie that American Business would not do business with Scotland. There are are a large number of Scottish businessmen in America as well as Canada. As a businessman myself I know some of them and they would be DELIGHTED to do business in an INDEPENDENT Scotland as I would. All of those American and Canadian Scottish businessmen say they are SCOTTISH ( THAT INCLUDES ME) not british = english on the North American continent.
slainte mhath
15

Team Scotland,

FC UK No! 27/09/2008 01:24:57

When Greenland gained autonomy from Denmark in 1979 it remained an EEC member until it voted 52% to 48% November 1983 to leave. Due to having extensive territorial wars the EU has been wooing it ever since.

Whether the USA is for against or indifferent is of no consequence, they would simply have to accept it.
16

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 27/09/2008 01:29:13
This was the argument the Edinburgh bankers made back in the 1770s - that Scottish investment would dry up in the north American colonies. Well I suppose the Schenectady New York traders did upsticks and head for Montreal but their prophesies for the future success of the upstart United States was a bit wide of the mark.

Ah well, so Lord Kerr thinks that Scotland will get thrown out of the EU is even more fanciful. After all I think Flanders and Wallonia are more likely to become independent of each other long before Salmond's referendum and the negotiations that would ensue. Ah, the thought of poor Brussels bureaucrats having to spend their expenses in a non-member territory and pass through the customs posts to get to their offices. Not very likely. So he believes that a more than likely net EU contributor with a great chunk of fishing grounds and oil fields would be kept out, so that the EU can bring Montenegro and Moldova into the elite of European nations.

The man is a fool. How he came to be a diplomat, God can only knows.
17

Scullion,

Canada 27/09/2008 01:33:52
Thomas Jefferson was another American who commented that a United Kingdom was simply "common sense".
Hard to argue with that fellow.
18

eDUCATIon,

27/09/2008 01:36:32
18

We will be when we get the Bomb.......
19

Brian Hill,

27/09/2008 01:56:02
What a load of unmitigated tosh. We heard the same doom and gloom before the Scottish Parliament was set up, except then the sky was also going to fall in and the sun would be turned off.

Then if the SNP ever became the Government the first born in every family would drop dead just as the moon fell from the heavens and landed on Auchtertool as a punishment and a warning to the Scots to stop being naughty.

Your Lordliness, you're problem is these fantasies of yours don't match up to the realities of this SNP Government, realities which the voting public love.

Independence is a state of mind, it has arrived, get over it, move on.
20

Weegiewarbler,

Docked tonight 27/09/2008 02:32:33
Looking at the numbers - Alex or the dear Lord.

Only one of them is capable of being "right" here.

Europe Doesn't need an independant Scotland.
Europe want's an independant Scotland.

Europe now has to look at England for Scottish energy (alternatiive and carbon based) - they're up in arms at the English posturing to abandon carbon targets (one issue).
Dealing with Independant Scotland will be more difficult or easier?

Scottish currency is reportedly set to be stronger than English - or we bring more stability to the Euro - good for Europe or not?

Scots Emigrees have long been a mainstay of the the free worlds innovation - nope - don't need those any longer either.

Scotland - About the oldest country in Europe with relatively intact borders - nope - traditions mean little perhaps.

Scotland - Already has MEP's and is already pretty well integrated into the EU - cheaper to create the upheaval of disentangling that we think.

The US - Enough Scots' died for their freedom - they'll likely get over it we suspect - after all, Washington HAD to cross the Delaware as he recruited a "new" fighting force of "Carolinian Highlanders".

Travel the real world - we do - Scots are universally admired and respected (OK, maybe not the current PM?).

The list can continue - but the vein is enonugh
21

Guga II,

Rockall 27/09/2008 02:38:07
What a load of unmitigated Unionist bulldust. Does this Uncle Tom think that anyone, other than his Unionist buddies are actually going to pay any heed to him?
22

Edward,

27/09/2008 03:07:30
I’m not sure which is worse ; Hamish MacDonnell for actually writing this drivel (or was he given it by someone in the Labour Party?) or Lord Kerr of Kinlochard for talk a load of unmitigated rubbish!
The ‘story’ tries to set out the credentials of Lord Kerr, by stating first that he is ‘most experienced and influential diplomat’ in order for the reader to be lulled into a sense that this man should know what he is talking about. But when it comes out with complete rubbish as ‘Scotland would struggle to get into the EU’ then we should realise this is just a piece of pro union, anti Scottish propaganda of the most childish kind!
What the ‘experienced’ Lord Kerr fails to grasp is that its not about Scotland ‘leaving the United Kingdom’ but in reality the dissolution of the United Kingdom!. With Scottish Independence , there is actually no United Kingdom. The Act of Union was only a union of Scotland and England. Lord Kerr may have been a good diplomat, but he is surely clueless about the history and make up of the Union.
Scotland, like England will remain part of the EU after the dissolution of the Union (that is if England wishes to remain in the EU)
As for American business. American business will continue to invest wherever they think is best. Americans were never put off investing in Ireland when the Irish broke
Free of Britain, so there is no rhyme or reason for that to change. Lord Kerr is being a tad presumptuous about a country (the USA), which he claims to be experienced in.

23

Edward,

27/09/2008 03:14:14
The classic Hamish MacDonnell comment 'Lord Kerr's intervention, on both these issues, represents a blow to SNP arguments over Scottish independence'
Erm I dont think so Hamish or was this still the Labour breifing your reading from?
Lord Kerr's comments are not very relevent as they are ill informed, which is surprising considering a man of his education and experience
24

John Muir,

Botany Bay 27/09/2008 03:22:27
I say, this lord chappie sounds suspiciously like one of those rabid Unionists fellows we often hear from on these pages.

The tone and content has an eerily familiar quality, and as a lord he would certainly have enough time on his hands to spout this drivel to his heart’s content.

Especially now that fox hunting has been banned. The annual trip down to the House of Lords is probably the only exercise he gets.
25

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 27/09/2008 03:56:29
#22 Scullion
-
That was then, this is now.
26

Helene,

Ontario, Canada 27/09/2008 04:02:21
Check paragraph 4 in this online version. It appears that this principled lord has got his principles and principals mixed up.
Perhaps the good lord's principal point though is - to whom would the USA turn when in need of a European ally - who speaks the same language? Would we see both Brown and Salmond (or their successors at some point in the future) jetting off in tandem across the Atlantic, to pose, along with the US president, as a happy trio on the lawns of the White House? And Americans thinking......but they're both Scots.
Oh well, it's just the principle of the matter.
27

Ubi,

Edinburgh 27/09/2008 04:07:13
It's complete rubbish to say that America would shun an independent Scotland. Does anyone seriously believe that Merca would not take an opportunistic view of an independent Scotland? The temptation of a bridgehead to Europe would simply be too appealing for them to resist.

Think trillions of their fine dollars speeding across the ocean to be Merca's favourite friend.
28

Mark Renton,

Edinburgh 27/09/2008 04:15:26
What a load of bluddy carp.
29

drahcir,

pittsburgh, pa, usa 27/09/2008 04:34:03
the usa is in a total financial meltdown, i can't see how they can meet their global financial obligations anymore !!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGYA5gbMgfg
30

The Pict.,

Canada 27/09/2008 05:46:30
# 28 Edward. Why do you know 'lord'Kerr is educated ? and just what experience does he have?
1 year 20 times or 20 years once?

Also there are many people so called well educated but they lack COMMON SENSE which is not so common. Laird Kerr is one of those.

A 'Laird' status means nothing. Many 'U' students cheat their way through or they are dummies who pay and get their diplomas/degrees that way. I'm talking in general terms here.

Most millionaires who I've met DO NOT have a university Education.

SLAINTE MHATH
31

Yankee girl,

California 27/09/2008 05:52:21
Poppycock!! What's this guy smokin'?
32

donald,

glasgow 27/09/2008 06:08:11
Lord Kerr probably complied of Americans supporting Irish Independence.

Maybe he wants the Seventh Cavalry to come to his aid at his Battle of Little Big Britain.
33

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 27/09/2008 06:08:22
Friends simply "Google" this twit!
He is on so many boards it is entirely possible that the splinter that he got in his Archie has now reached his brain. With diplomats like him is it any wonder that “George” along with “Tony” and “Gordon” cooked up the WMD’s to get to the “Oil”
The fact that the Editor of this production allowed this to go to print allows me to assume that this has been placed there by the Westmunster authorities.
34

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 06:12:55
Salmond’s claim that “all serious international legal opinion” supports his party’s contention is misguided, at best.

Opinion is certainly divided, but Lord Kerr is by no means alone in his opinion. Here are various supporting statements:

1. Prof Robert Hazell, Director of the Constitution Unit at University College London:

“Scotland would have to re-apply for membership of the EU. Renewed membership is not guaranteed. The reaction to Kosovo's claim to independence suggests that EU member states like Spain might block Scotland's application, for fear of encouraging similar claims from the Basque country and Catalonia.”

2. Dr Joe Borg, EU Fisheries Commissioner:

“Legally speaking, the continuation of the membership would remain with the rest of the UK - less Scotland. And, therefore, Scotland, as a newly independent state, would have to apply for membership.”

3. Dr Lorand Bartels, lecturer in international economic law at Edinburgh University:

“Both as a matter of international law and as a matter of EU law, Scotland would have to negotiate its accession to the EU as a new member state.”
35

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 06:13:23
4. Dr Matthew Happold, then Research Officer at the British Institute of International and Comparative Law, in a 1999 paper:

“Were Scotland to gain independence, it would be the rump UK, not Scotland, that would inherit membership of the EU. Scotland’s subsequent route to EU membership could well be a tortuous one. The SNP’s use of the phrase Independence in Europe seeks to persuade the Scottish electorate that it can have its cake and eat it, that Scotland can have both the benefits of independence and the security of membership of the European Union. However, the real situation is that an independent Scotland might end up with all the insecurities of independence and none of the benefits of EU membership.”

5. Neil Mitchison, the European Commission’s representative in Scotland:

“The situation is unprecedented and therefore negotiations would be needed. Things would have to be discussed and negotiated.”

6. Dr Jo Murkens, in a 2001 paper for the Constitution Unit entitled “Scotland's Place in Europe”:

“If Scotland were to apply to become a member timing would matter because the EU is in a process of enlargement and the terms that an independent Scotland could negotiate would differ if the EU had 28 rather than the current 15 Member States ... The process of negotiation is unlikely to be easy even for Scotland. Evidence from other candidate countries suggests that the EU uses its pre-accession bargaining strength to extract the maximum concessions from acceding parties. Member States are obviously aware that once candidates have joined, existing Member States will never have such an advantage again.”
36

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 06:13:38
See also:

http://www.scottishunionist.com/2008/08/independence-in-europe-highly-debatable.html
37

Pilrig,

Livingston 27/09/2008 06:22:48
39 - who elected them ?
38

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:23:29
39 40 41

Yet none of that is convincing nor definitive on its own its still all opinion.
As you say opinion is divided and all there is to judge the contitutional set up is previous precedence.
And that favours Scotland and the SNPs position.
As was discussed on these blogs before the legal precedence was set with Greenland and Denmark.

So on the unionist side there is opinion or more accurately bias opinion and wishful thinking and on the SNPs side there is legal precedence and history.

And lets face it if the US cant support self determination and independence then what is the 4th of July celebrations all about?
39

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:24:09
43

Should read constitutional.
40

Finnzz,

Offshore 27/09/2008 06:28:40
Kerr has obviously just been wheeled out to spout the usual pro-unionist twaddle. The trouble is, the arguments he puts forward are factually false and are so easily rebuffed by anyone who has a clue to how things work in the real world.
American investment will actually pour into Scotland once local control of Corporation tax is achieved, as will English. After all, the lure of Mammon has no boundaries. That is why the idea of Independance has such a large following in the business community.
41

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 06:28:54
#43 parcel

Greenland didn't secede from Denmark. There's no precedent there.

I agree that none of this is certain. That's why Alex Salmond's dogmatic claim that “Scotland is already a member of the EU and that would continue” is so misleading.
42

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:30:11
39

“Legally speaking, the continuation of the membership would remain with the rest of the UK - less Scotland. And, therefore, Scotland, as a newly independent state, would have to apply for membership.”

Problem with that statement is there is no "United Kingdoms" without Scotland. There are only 2 "United Kingdoms" within the union now Scotland and England.
Wales is a principality and NI is a province.
When Scotland gains its independence the UK and all of its present treaties obligations etc no longer apply and its back to square one for everybody.
If you wish to dispute this I would dearly love to see your legal precedence or even historical precedence.
I do hope you try to use Ireland.
43

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 06:31:28
#43 parcel

I would also point out some of the selective citation used by the SNP. Look at post #4, for example, specifically the snippets of quotes by th late Émile Noêl, former President of the European Commission.

His remark, in full, was actually as follows:

“There is no precedent or provision for the expulsion of a member state, therefore Scottish Independence would create two new member states out of one. The remainder of the United Kingdom would not be in a more powerful position than Scotland. Unless Scotland expressed a wish to come out of Europe while gaining Independence, the will of the people would be interpreted as a desire to retain the European status quo.”

Note: “no precedent”, not even Greenland.

And anyway, who said anything about the “expulsion of a member state? The United Kingdom is the member, not Scotland. So it’s hard to understand why the SNP would imagine this statement to support their “automatic membership” contention.
44

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:32:31
46

So what is your term for it? and did Greenland not remain within the EU when they "parted" from Denmark.
And Scotland wont be "seceding" either. They will be returning their MPS to their original parliament and disolving the union of parliaments.
Or is this not a union of equal parliaments anymore?
45

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 06:34:42
#47 parcel

Re: “there is no "United Kingdoms" without Scotland”

There would be a successor state: the "UK less Scotland", which would continue as the UK. Any other view - that the UK would "explode" into its four constituent parts, for example - is pure fantasy.

And if that's the level the thread has reached, I'll leave you to it! Bye.
46

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:35:20
48

Yes of course as I said before all you have is opinion not legal fact nor precendence unless you can prove me wrong on this point? Others have different opinions thats what they are for.
Many people used to have the opinion the world was flat but nobody had definitive proof didnt stop them expressing that opinion though.
47

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 06:35:31
#49 parcel

Greenland did NOT part from Denmark.

Now, breakfast.
48

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:38:31
50

Says who? more opinion? how can a UK be a UK with only one Kingdom? what you have left would be the Kingdom of England the principality of Wales and the province of NI which by the way is bound by treaty equally to Scotland as it is to the rest of the present UK.
Wales was already part of the Westminster parliament before 1707 NI came after. So who gets NI? will it have to split yet again? no legal nor constitutional precedence there either nor is it clear and consise.
49

glassbenmhor,

27/09/2008 06:39:23
The Good Peer,

Maybe has never heard of 'ANDREW CARNAGIE'

Maybe he has never seen the ' fellow on the deck of an old wooden man-o-war, that resides upon PAGE No.1 of the US Passport.
AND his Name John Paul Jones founder of the United States Navy born,yes SCOTLAND

How I could go on and on and on and on and, yes on.
But why bother, 1707 is months away from the 'Garbage Can'after which we as the good Peer knows full well Scotland will have her own 'Tea Party'---tickets only!!!
50

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:39:31
52

So in you own words what did they do?
51

glassbenmhor,

27/09/2008 06:42:05
MY Lord,

What are your thoughts on England without the North Sea?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????.

'THIRD WORLD' prehaps
52

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 06:44:25
AM2

If the UK still exists it will be the UK of crowns not parliaments and will still include Scotland unless we decide to go republic after independence.
With the union of crowns then all nations within the union of crowns should still have the international obligations of the Union of parliaments including its treaties.
So the UK can only exist as a union of crowns after Scotland gains its independence not a union of parliaments and will still include Scotland.
53

glassbenmhor,

27/09/2008 06:47:02
AS THE LIGHTS FINALL GO ON IN UNIONISTS HEADS ALL OVER SCOTLAND ---------

THE LIGHTS GO OUT ALL OVER THE HOME COUNTIES!
54

glassbenmhor,

27/09/2008 06:52:20
And then what,

Scotland's new direction and all her Scandinavian friends and there structural endeavours will come to our neighbors rescue in reconnection of power and natural resources---but by god at a fair PRICE!!!
55

williamx,

canada 27/09/2008 07:03:38
If Scotland gets its independence then we have two countries, Scotland and England If Scotland has to reapply to the EU then so does England unless of course the EU thinks Britain is England and the original treaty to join is phrased as England. Some how I don't think so.
56

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 07:05:21
AM2

If England decided to withdraw from the union would the UK still exist?
57

glassbenmhor,

27/09/2008 07:06:04
I herd Bernard Ingram spitting with rage at Scotland's disloyalty with the onset of Independence,
as though we had been lavished with our very existence and "NOWT" had been seen in return.

Well a boy could say many things in reply, but one comes readily to mind,

in the Army Regimental glory is counted in Battle Honours and let me tell you all when it comes to the Scottish Regiments the numbers are unbelievably high,
this nation of ours has bleed to death in every far flung part of the globe imaginable, over the past three centuries.
The brighter side of this is that over the years a connection was made which in no small measure will pass to bare comfort in this bright new age ahead.

58

glassbenmhor,

27/09/2008 07:17:50
I seriously think Gordon Brown better make an appearance in Glenrothes,

because unlike the journo clowns ,Tom Brown and crew think they know,

most of us know the 'Kingdom' truly, and the one thing you don't do to a Fifer is-----

NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT!!!!!
59

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/09/2008 07:20:38
I see our wise Irish sage is back.

There have hardly been any deletions of late!

I'm sure that'll change today!
60

Colin Wilson,

27/09/2008 07:22:14
"If Scotland was to become independent, it would have to leave the EU and reapply to get back in"

But in constitutional terms, Scotland wouldn't become "independent", which is what happens with colonies and annexed territories. In Scotland's case, what we'd have is the dissolution of a political union established by treaty, following which the two successor states would be equal in constitutional terms. Both would remain in the EU, or both would have to rejoin.

for this and other reasons, I've long believed it to be an error to talk of Scottish "independence". I think it's much better to say "constitutional renormalisation".
61

Boy Wonder,

27/09/2008 07:24:13
When Scotland becomes Independent again ... and it will ... we'll see just who is first to rock up to congratulate us and ask to be our best friend. I suspect they'd have to be mighty fast to beat the Yanks.

And Europe won't want to let us go. They have too much invested in the country.

Lord Kerr .. you just outed yourself as a Unionist!
62

FTH22inarow,

27/09/2008 07:28:04
what a pile of unionist claptrap
63

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/09/2008 07:28:07
Here we go again.

Another 'horror' headline written by scurrilous rogues.

We will be getting these on a daily basis until the by election humiliation is complete.

No doubt our resident half-witted 'expert on everything', Professor Midwinter will be around again soon, writing whatever he is told by his London masters.

Vote SNP, the ONLY party for ALL the people of Scotland.
64

The Nightmare on Wall Street,

Algiers 27/09/2008 07:32:24
Another example of bias from The Scotsman. Lord Kerr? Who? Has he stood in an election in Scotland so that he can express his views and put them to the democratic test?

So the EU would welcome Bulgaria and Romania, the separatists from Slovakia (ex Czechoslovakia) and those nasty Baltic separatists from Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia who broke away from the Soviet Union but Scotland would be frozen out, leaving Norway and Scotland holding the bulk of Europe's oil and gas outside the EU?

The US will not give a second thought ("t_ss" not allowed by Scotsman) about Scotland. Most of them do not even know where it is? Has President Bush ever been in Scotland. Lord Kerr? Mr Macdonell?





65

Alan Reid,

NZ 27/09/2008 07:33:18
More garbage from this rag I see. Nothing changes and I see Tory boy AM is back, with his drivel.
66

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 07:52:44
71

Thats right all of the EU citizens living and working in Scotland will automatically have their rights to live and work in an Independent Scotland under the EU treaties revoked overnight according to the unionist spin. Including English Irish and Welsh.
And all Scots living and working in the EU will be deported back to Scotland.
I am just trying to recall when this ever happened before? and when this precedence was set maybe AM2 can help he is the definitive answer to everything.
67

Hugo of Garven,

27/09/2008 08:08:51
We are doomed! We are doomed, a tell ye.

Another 'fear' story.

I remain positive. We CAN do it.
68

Geoff,

sa 27/09/2008 08:09:09
have not read any of the above comments yet to give you my 'untainted' opinion(bet u can not wait. I personally oppose scottish independence but should that rueful day ever arrive i think scotland would have no problem gaining recognition worldwide and would be admitted to all the major world bodies. The argument that the UK would be weakened is valid and i can see why this would be of concern to the Yanks as of course it should be to the people of Great Britain and northern ireland!1 The comparisons to other seperatist regions of Europe-not altogether valid. The Basque Movement for example has a violent element that has hardened attitudes on both sides in Spain and indeed amongst the Basques themselves- the situation in northern ireland a priori current accord is a better analogy. The scottish independence movement is peaceful and constitutional. Any region in a democratic europe should in theory be entitled to Independence BUT my personal view is that further balkanisation is not the way to go. A federal system that recognises identities within Unions is a way to achieve the best of both worlds. Unionists must argue and demonstrate positive cases for their cause. Scaremongering is not the way altho legit concerns must be argued.
69

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 08:15:57
Independence is not a bad thing, but the problem with Scottish independence is that it isnt necessary!

Salmond first and foremost is a freedom fighter on a mission to dissolve the union. Secondly, his mission and his agenda stem not from sound economic principles and a true need for liberation and civil liberty, but from a life of anti union rhetoric.

He will say that the SNP are not anti English, but ofcourse we all know he must say that in public. All the SNP supporters will also tell us that they are not anti English, but again, we all know the score!

"sent them homeward tae think again" and "WHO' proud Edward's army"

And my personal favourite "but we can still rise now and be a nation again"

The entire song is written and sang from the point of Scotland being some oppressed little nothing state at the mercy of the big bad English - and just as we sent than homeward tae think again over 700 years ago, we will do the same again.....AYE FREEEEEEEEEEDOM!

It is pathetic to say the least.
70

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 08:16:07
74

It would only be a concern to the US government not to US business nor the population.
The US constitution is all about self determination and Independence.
They cannot deny for Scotland what Scots fought and died for to help them acheive for themselves.
Its just another nonsense story to add to the list.
71

beckypumps1,

fife 27/09/2008 08:21:27
The Hootsman sinks to new lows of bias. The sunday sport better watch its back I feel the hootsman may pinch their clothes (underwear) as the reach for new readers.
72

,

27/09/2008 08:23:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
73

Geoff,

sa 27/09/2008 08:24:19
75 Media 1-howsit media! Have some of your cold Cape weather in Durbs today-hope u are well!
"Scottish Independence..isn't necessary" Exactly! My point entirely.The quest for Scottish Independence is an unecessary attempt to unscramble the eggs! David Cameron(50% Scottish) interviewed on Sky News yesterday spoke passionately of his love of his nation Britain! Yet many Nationalists on this forum constantly tell us that there is no such country!!

Some Chicken, some Neck!!!!
74

Porry,

The Continent 27/09/2008 08:25:18
What monetary resources are left in the US of A anyhow that could be invested in Scotland? Isn't each and every cent presently tied up in the big bailout? Haven't the Yanks already asked other countries, including the UK, to help out financially? And as to the EU, since, as a part of the UK, Scotland is already a member, it will remain a member after having become independent. However, membership terms would then be the same as for any continental EU country, no extras any more.
75

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/09/2008 08:26:43
This thread is becoming overpowering.

Our resident Irish sage reappears and now our resident South African nutter puts in an appearance!!

What next Highland Mighty/British Pride/Ewan M?

Might as well head for Glenrothes and meet some sensible people!!

Vote SNP, the ONLY party for ALL the people of Scotland
76

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 27/09/2008 08:29:14
During the 6 week Velvet Revolution when the Czechs and Slovaks argued over going their separate ways the US State Department was unhappy about this prospect and made similar noises in an attempt to keep Czechoslovakia in one piece.

The US is now one of the largest investors in both the Czech Republic and Slovakia!
77

Geoff,

sa 27/09/2008 08:30:42
76 suchaparcel etc-it would only be a concern for the US government-but that is a big concern as the government represent the people and business. Also the US constitution is about self determination yes, but self determination has its limits. For example, would the US government support or encourage the Alaskan Independence Movement?
I think not.
78

Colkitto,

River Cyde 27/09/2008 08:31:38
My sources in the USA have said they would be delighted at Scotland becoming an independent nation again.Although they will not say publicly that that is the case.
Other sources that I have say we would gain entry in to the EU no problem. In fact most countries would welcome us in with open arms.

So who's right here, me or Lord Kerr ?
79

Argyll on line,

Strachur 27/09/2008 08:33:12
Are there no depth to which this sad apology for a newspaper will stoop?
80

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 27/09/2008 08:35:31
It's uncomfortable feeling to be in agreement with Salmond about anything but I believe his point of view is far more likely.

However one looks at it, Scotland is already a part of the EU and a bit of UK domestic constitutional tweaking surely wouldn't affect this. If Lord Kerr is right, the EU is so constitutionally weak that it isn't worth bothering about anyway. However I can imagine a scenario where, if Scotland became independent of the rest of the UK, there would be a window of opportunity to resile from the EU.

As a geographic but non-constitutional part of Europe, Scotland could find itself as a very important and economically valuable conduit between the EU countries and North America (indeed, the rest of the world). A sort of upmarket Hong Kong, if you like.
81

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 08:44:50
83

No they dont they represent themselves. Its US business which runs the government not the other way around and if US business find profit in an independent Scotland then they will do business if not they wont.
Thats what business does.
82

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 08:47:21
87

There is no federal alternative within the act of union and union of crowns only outside of the union of parliaments and the union of crowns.
Anything else is just devolution.
83

Dr. James Wilkie,

Helensburgh 27/09/2008 08:48:01
I have rarely read such nonsensical scaremongering, and from a professional diplomat too. Of course Scotland would have to make a formal application for individual membership of the European Union, in the unlikely event that EU membership was desirable, but the same would apply to all the other regional and global international organisations. There would be no rejection by Brussels - the EU needs Scotland a good deal more than Scotland needs the EU. In reality, EEA membership would cover all of Scotland's economic needs in Europe.

US business is not noted for its scrupulousness regarding national borders, and it can safely be said that possible discrimination against an independent Scotland is a figment of Lord Kerr's imagination. There is such a thing as world government nowadays, and the World Trade Organisation would have something to say on the matter if the EU or anyone else adopted punitive economic measures against an independent Scotland, especially when no such measures have been taken against the two dozen other newly independent states that have emerged since 1989.

I am in favour of Scottish membership of all the major European organisations with the exception of the EU, which I think would not be in Scotland's interests, and I do not foresee any disadvantages for Scotland arising out of such an arrangement. As for US hostility, I am afraid Lord Kerr is not living in the real world.

84

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 08:48:20
87

Are they failing to be independent? how many of them have asked to join the union?
85

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 08:55:47
90
"I am afraid Lord Kerr is not living in the real world."

All he has done is given his own politically biased opinion not based on any evidence or substanciated facts but on his own as he said "beliefs".
Its only value is political propaganda nothing more.
86

GM,

27/09/2008 08:58:37
And once more AM2 presents a series of quotes, which are in fact nothing more than *opinions* in an attempt to establish the 'fact' that Scotland would have a tortous or no route at all into the EU...

laughable.


Ah, the spinmeister appears to be back and in his full glory of obfuscation, lies, deceit and negativity.

There was a day when people fell for all that, but even labour in scotland are coming around to the concept that it doesn't work anymore. Shame AM2 will be the last person in the country to waken up to the fact.
87

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 27/09/2008 09:06:35
Had a bit of a sh!tty week, but this bilge has given me a good laugh!
88

suchaparcelofrogues,

27/09/2008 09:07:50
It sickens me to see these priviledged "Scottish" individuals who put their own personal interests ahead of the national interest yet expect all ordinary non privledged individuals to put their "nations" interests above their own.
Trash like Lord Kerr are representative of the same corrupt self serving quislings who sold our nation off in 1707 for personal financial profit and status.
And since then our nations young men and woman have had to sacrifice themselves for the greater good of another "nation".
How much is the measure of privledge which allows you to put you own self interests above that of the nations?
89

GM,

27/09/2008 09:10:00
Just to counter AM2's parcel of so called experts...

here is an extract from the government's own reports in 2007 -

Nicola Sturgeon: "I will take that question in its two parts. First, it is the clear view of the Scottish National Party and the Government that Scotland would automatically be a member of the European Union upon independence. There is legal opinion to back that up. I do not think that the legal position is in any doubt. The political position is, arguably, clearer still. In an era in which the European Union is expanding, the idea that some members have bandied around in the past that Scotland would be cast out is incredible and does not bear sensible scrutiny. Scotland would automatically be a member of the European Union."



-------------------------------------------------------

So what we have is a member of the SNP government detailing that there is a substantial weight of legal opinion supporting scotland's membership.

This from Sturgeon who also happens to hold an honours degree in international law.

-------------------------------------------------------


who do you believe? AM2 or the government and its own advisors?

90

GM,

27/09/2008 09:15:45
For those who are interested -

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/europe/or-07/eu07-0902.htm

Read from the midpoint of col231 down and see how no-one even from the opposition denies the fact that there is a substantial body of legal opinion within the government confirming scotland's membership rights in the EU.



AM2 is right.

or

The government, its lawyers, the opposition etc are right.


I know who my money is on. AM2 hasn't had a single 'prediction' on these forums come true since about 4 months prior to May 2007.
91

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 09:16:07
Geoff

Howzit pal, I am in Johannesburg today, got tickets for the Sharks vs Lions tonight.

You are right, independence is a nonsense! They are trying to unscramble the eggs as you say.

To me, Scotland is more than the little nothing state the nationalists make her out to be. But if you are brought up believing that Scotland is not a nation, hence the reason we are told we can still rise now and be a nation again, then you are conditioned to believe such nonsense.
And if you are always reminded that we sent them homeward tae think again you begin using fighting talk.

Painted blue faces and cries of FREEEEEDOM is so SNP...Can you imagine living your life so blinkered?
92

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 09:18:15
GM

AM2 is only the messenger dont give him/her any more status than that. just shoot down the message when it appears.
93

GM,

27/09/2008 09:18:33
The Convener: This is the European and External Relations Committee, so perhaps it is appropriate that I should refer to the first sentence on page 23 of the white paper, which says:

"An independent Scotland would continue in the European Union and bear the burdens and fulfil the responsibilities of membership."

I will ask you about a couple of aspects of that, the first of which is how you see the process issue working out. I do not know whether you have any legal advice on that. The second is more to do with your general position on the European Union, given what the Government has been saying about the common fisheries policy. Some have suggested that the logic of your position on that is to withdraw from the CFP and therefore the EU. Will you comment on that sentence?

Nicola Sturgeon: I will take that question in its two parts. First, it is the clear view of the Scottish National Party and the Government that Scotland would automatically be a member of the European Union upon independence. There is legal opinion to back that up. I do not think that the legal position is in any doubt. The political position is, arguably, clearer still. In an era in which the European Union is expanding, the idea that some members have bandied around in the past that Scotland would be cast out is incredible and does not bear sensible scrutiny. Scotland would automatically be a member of the European Union.

On the second part of your question, the SNP is enthusiastically pro-Europe. We always have been—certainly in modern times—and we will continue to be so. That does not mean that we are uncritical of everything that emanates from the European Union. We have made no bones about the fact that we are not overly fond of the common fisheries policy and that we have severe difficulties with the aspect of the proposed European constitution treaty—whatever you want to call it—that would enshrine exclusive competence over fisheries. We have made that position abundantly clear.
94

GM,

27/09/2008 09:18:46
Irene Oldfather: The minister said that Scotland would automatically become a member of the European Union.

Nicola Sturgeon: Indeed I did.

Irene Oldfather: You would not require to renegotiate.

Nicola Sturgeon: No.
95

GM,

27/09/2008 09:19:08
Irene Oldfather: The minister thinks that other member states would just stand back and that, despite the financial and administrative changes involved, a process of renegotiation would not be required. Setting aside the legal argument, in relation to the political argument there could be no automatic right of application.

Nicola Sturgeon: Despite what is perhaps the wishful thinking of the member, the legal and political arguments back up the view that I have expressed.

Irene Oldfather: Do not all member states require to negotiate? What makes Scotland different?

Nicola Sturgeon: In order to join the European Union for the first time, there is a process of negotiation—

Irene Oldfather: So it is not automatic.

Nicola Sturgeon: I was about to make a distinction between countries joining the European Union for the first time—a category to which Scotland does not belong—and Scotland, which is currently a member of the European Union and would continue to be a member upon independence. That is very clear, and—as I am sure the member, with her interest in European matters, is well aware—it is backed up by a considerable weight of legal opinion.

96

GM,

27/09/2008 09:19:32
Irene Oldfather: I am aware of the weight of legal opinion on the issue, but I am asking about the political situation. The United Kingdom is a member state of the European Union. Scotland is not, so it would not have an automatic right to join. The matter would have to be renegotiated.

Nicola Sturgeon: I did my honours degree in international law. I do not remember all that I learned and am a bit rusty, but I remember the law
of the successor states, which would clearly apply in this case. Scotland would assume the rights and responsibilities of the UK, which would include automatic membership of the European Union. The overwhelming weight of legal opinion backs up that view.

If anything, the politics of the matter are even stronger than the legal issues. The European Union has expanded considerably in recent years. I cannot find credible the argument that the European Union would not enthusiastically want to have oil-rich Scotland as a member. Members of the Parliament who make that argument are engaging more in wishful thinking than in an argument based on fact.

97

GM,

27/09/2008 09:19:52
Irene Oldfather: My problem is with the word "automatic". There would need to be a renegotiation process in relation to the financial and administrative issues.

Nicola Sturgeon: With the greatest respect to the member, that is her view—a view with which I profoundly disagree.

98

GM,

27/09/2008 09:20:00
Alex Neil: I want to reinforce that point. Is it not the case that successive secretaries general of the European Commission, from Professor Emile Noël right through to the previous Irish secretary general—the top civil servants, who have no axe to grind—have stated categorically that the position that you have just outlined is the legal and political position on the governance of the European Union?

Nicola Sturgeon: That is absolutely the case. I have referred to the weight of legal opinion and to the overwhelming political reality of the situation. I accept that many members of the Parliament do not support independence and I respect their right to hold that view. However, I always find it hard to fathom and to get my head around the position of those who seem to wish Scotland ill, if it chooses the option of independence, and who seem to take pleasure in predicting that we would be cast out and that all sorts of dreadful things would happen. I hope that, if Scotland chooses independence, all members of the Parliament will accept that it has the right to do so.

99

GM,

27/09/2008 09:20:15
Alex Neil: The other obvious point to underline is that, when Scotland votes to be independent, it will have the same constitutional relationship with the European Union as the rest of the United Kingdom, which will also automatically remain a member of the Union.

Nicola Sturgeon: Indeed.

Irene Oldfather: My point relates to the word "automatic". There would need to be a vote in the Council of Ministers.

Nicola Sturgeon: Point me to the rule in any of the treaties of the European Union that says that.

100

Geoff,

sa 27/09/2008 09:24:28
Media 1-enjoy the game-hope you're gonna shout for the black n whites! If we get a home final there's a spot for you in our box at ABSA!
101

GM,

27/09/2008 09:24:35
Irene Oldfather - Labour party MSP -


quote from 2007 in her role as part of the European and External Relations Committee...

=======================================================

"I am aware of the weight of legal opinion on the issue, but I am asking about the political situation."

=======================================================



so even labour know of the weight of legal opinion giving scotland rights to EU membership, and all they are doing is trying 'political' maneouvering to obfuscate the issue....




Game set and match - move along folks, no story here... move along.
102

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 09:25:10
Perhaps all the nations in the European Union should behave like Scotland and seek total independence.

Perhaps all the states in the United States of America should behave like Scotland and seek total independence.

Maybe all the countries who are part of the United Nations should go their seperate ways.

No wonder Scotland and its nationalists are viewed as an embarrassment by so many.
103

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 09:25:58
106

Which of course he couldnt do. That is an impressive transcript.
104

bluehead,

edinburgh 27/09/2008 09:26:24
after recent events such as war and stuff,and watching British prime ministers kissing the presidential posterior,I think we would be happy never to see Americans again,it is bad enough for the British people to put up with their own worthless politicians,but now we have to suffer everybody's politicians since the labour goverment sold this country to the foreigners,it cannot escaped any one's notice that we are now no longer a country,,our disgusting politicians have destroyed Britain.
105

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 09:27:46
Geoff: I will be cheering on the Sharks, I think!
lol

I was in Durban last week, went to Billy the Bums in Morningside - very noice indeed!
106

GM,

27/09/2008 09:28:45
If you get to the bottom of the real story, its all about Trident...

The former diplomat is deeply concerned that scotland may not be a NATO member... that kind of puts a multi trillion pound contract for trident and its replacement at risk.

Hamish decided the story was all about the EU, but thats not the meat of the issue... nowhere even close.


Here is part of his interview -
"Most people in Scotland know that breaking up Britain would be bad for the economy and bad for jobs. They also know that the Nationalist position on Nato is frankly ludicrous. Leaving Nato would threaten thousands of jobs and leave Scotland isolated, exposed and vulnerable, " he said.

107

GM,

27/09/2008 09:31:02
Actually, the former diplomat has simply rehashed an old story from c1986... and its all about NATO (read Trident), not the EU.
108

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 27/09/2008 09:34:30
Many anti-EU Unionists still have the brass neck to claim that Scotland would never be an acceptable candidate for EU membership?

IF, the EU had to choose between Scotland and Turkey, I
I have no doubt which nation would be granted membership!


109

GM,

27/09/2008 09:35:37
Media 1 -

the only thing thats viewed as an embarrassment are those petty, sniping, belittling posts of yours in which you claim to be scottish but do nothing more than rip Scotland and Scottishness apart.

I think being white in south africa has probably given you a certain mindset about how you should be able to control others' lives.

Unfortunately, that mindset doesn't wash with a huge swaithe of the population in scotland these days (whether they are pro or against full independence). You need to get back here sometime and get the full mood of the nation - its certainly not for retention of the status quo - even AM2 acknowledges that.

110

tommy M,

27/09/2008 09:35:46
we can expect a lot more of this type of "unbiased" viewpoint in the run up to the by election, me thinks.

Ah well, the people of Glenrothes will decide..when they get the chance...why is NorthbritBroon leaving them unrepresented for so long?
111

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 09:36:54
115

Or indeed Scotland and England
112

JimC,

Kilmarnock 27/09/2008 09:37:58
#10
Where's Kinlochard? I bet his lordship's neighbours aren't impressed.

Kinlochard: From Glasgow head towards Aberfoyle, then on to Kinlochard, it is nothing more than a post office surrounded by the Queen Elizabeth Forrest Park. I can only imagine that the notorious Midge has passed on some form of infection to his lardship? By the way, this is also Michael Forsyth’s stomping ground. I also note his lardship is an an executive committee member of the Trilateral Commission
113

Martyk,

27/09/2008 09:45:40
90; An independent Scotland which did not wish to become a member of the EU would hardly be a magnet for US investment would it? Which remember is what this article is actually about. The Irish have prospered mightily on being the only English speaking member of the Eurozone and on their membership of the EU in general with regard to foreign investment. A Scotland which was not in the EU or Eurozone I would guess would not be on US Corporate radar at all for foreign investment. But then Scotland doesnt get much US investment now anyway. Not like the old days anyhoo.
114

Martyk,

27/09/2008 09:50:18
Someone mentioned Northern Ireland in connection with Scots independence. Good point. What on earth would happen to NI following Scots independence ? Would the protestant east want to join us in a Greater Scotland and the Catholic west and south of NI join the Republic? How fascinating. We would have an empire on day one of independence !!!
115

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/09/2008 09:54:13
This guy is living in the past. The US now regards Germany and France as the key players in Europe. This will continue no matter who wins the Presidential election.

As for the EU, I suspect that his views are wrong, but I would shed few tears if Scotland had the same relationship with the EU as Norway does.
116

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 09:54:33
GM #116

That post was as weak as your reasoning for independence.
And give the apartheid era comments a rest, we all know that the communist funded ANC were kept quiet by America and Britain during the cold war - All the while 90% of white SA were not exactly happy with the system that was forced upon all of us, the referendum results in 1992 proved that beyond any doubt.

If your comments about SA were poor, your comments pertaining to me, Scotland and Scottisness are even more impoverished.

Unlike you, I am proud to be Scottish and British. I consider Scotland to be a powerful and truly brilliant place and I see her in that light..Because of my passion for Scotland and my acknowledgement that she is a powerful member of a great union as opposed to some little nothing state under English oppression I am able to love Scotland more than you could ever do.

When you finish hating England maybe you can try and love Scotland - until then why not stay dedicated to the nationalist agenda by painting your face in a saltire, run about crying for FREEDOM and wearing ARGENTINA strips when England are playing them..
117

John S,

27/09/2008 09:54:57
96 etc GM-Thanks for that information it was very interesting.
118

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/09/2008 09:59:06
#5 That applies to the UK. Typical Americans tend to be mostly inward looking. So what's your point again?
119

Martyk,

27/09/2008 09:59:56
125; You love Scotland so much you live in Cape Town? Hmmm.
120

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/09/2008 10:04:11
Lord Kerr:

"But, as for American business, they would also see it as a bad thing; they would regard it as bad news if they were thinking of investing in Scotland."

And what evidence do you have for this?
121

sigholm,

ayrshire 27/09/2008 10:05:07
So it's not all bad news your lordship.
122

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/09/2008 10:05:22
"Lord Kerr's intervention, on both these issues, represents a blow to SNP arguments over Scottish independence."

Should read:

"Lord Kerr's intervention, on both these issues, represents a blow to his own credibility"
123

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 10:05:36
125

So you are not happy South Africa is Independent from the UK and not still a colony?
124

The Strategist,

27/09/2008 10:07:04
Like Lord Kerr, AM2 is a true defender of the British establishment and therefore determined to prevent change at all cost..

I've said on numerous occassions it is absolutely critical that Scotland get out from under the dead hand of the Treasury and the City of London in order to realise our real economic potential.

I think recent events have proven me right.
125

GM,

27/09/2008 10:09:05
@125

Couple of things for you Media1

1 - you don't know my 'reasoning for independence'

2 - what makes you think those who seek independence consider scotland to be a 'wee nothing state'. I have yet to hear of a single nationalist having that kind of view (which is really the domain of the unionists)

3 - I don't 'hate England'. That would be a simply bizarre view to hold.

4 - I only support one international football team and that is Scotland


I s'pose one thing I should be kicking myself for though is rising to your bait. I've seen you on these forums for long enough that I should have known better.
I should really have sympathy for you and apologise for my post - you clearly have no clue being so remote, of the general mood of the country. There aren't many of you left who feel the status quo is so fantastic that it should be preserved at all costs.

(and thats the strange thing, you and thankfully just a few others have a passion to preserve the union as it is at *any* cost, where most have moved on to either adapting the union or doing away with it altogether)
126

Geoff,

sa 27/09/2008 10:14:44
128 Martyk-lots of people who love Scotland live overseas. Sean Connery for example.
112 Media 1-there are some nice mummies serving the beer at Billys as well!
Howsit Spook!
127

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 10:15:11
123

That wasnt the point the point is Ireland joined the union after 1707 when the union was Scotland and England. Well joined isnt really the description it was more in the line of annexed against its collective will. The point is the so called treaty of union between the UK and Ireland encompasses Scotland therefore that treaty will remain with Scotland in or out of its own union with Westminster.
The treaty with Ireland or NI of 1921 isnt with the "rest of the UK without Scotland" but with the UK including Scotland.
It puts to bed the nonsense that the UK will go on as it is without Scotland.
128

Dr Lloyd Berkshire-Hunt,

27/09/2008 10:16:18
The problem with Scottish Nationalism is fundamental.
A large part of it isn't motivated by the idea that we're best determining our own future, but by an emotional antipathy towards the English (including the millions of Scots who've headed south over the years and currently run our government).

This clouds our perception of the reality - an economy with a disproportionate foundation in the public sector and serious health, welfare and standard of living issues in a large part of our population. Not to say these issues couldn't be resolved, but I'd rather be in the hands of Westminster than the Lefty cabal of weegy pols who hogg Scottish politics. Jeez - they think Gordon Broon is bad doon south - they havenae a clue!

The Scottish NHS should run a programme in which Scots can slowly meet some English people in controlled surroundings, then maybe, if it is deemed safe for all parties, you can graduate on to having English friends, maybe even an English spouse! You never know - you might discover the average Englishman isn't that different from the average Scot...
129

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 10:17:00
125

Are you happy with South Africa being independent from the UK or would you prefer it were still a colony?
130

scottish person,

paisley 27/09/2008 10:17:38
Hamish' are you a unionist working for a unionist rag?
131

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 10:21:16
123

Actually what my post at 136 highlights is what a constitutional mess the union of parliaments and crowns really is.
The Treaties of union are in reality just worthless meaningless political wall paper.
The reality is as AM2 so eloquently shows is that the UK is nothing more than a single nation governing 3 colonies.
132

Ananurhing,

27/09/2008 10:21:46
So Kinlochard coughs up some limp bumfluff and Hamish jumps on it as a serious blow for Scottish independence?
This is why no one takes your articles seriously anymore Hamish. You're regarded as a discredited joke by most people nowadays. Even unionists. As soon as your name appears on an article, the presumption is that it'll be some unintelligent attempt at unionist spin, and you never disappoint! How are the circulation figures for the Hootsman doing Hamish? Oh dear. That bad eh? Maybe you should revert back to being a newspaper again!

What was the Hootsman's founding mission statement again Hamish?
"IMPARTIALITY, FIRMNESS, INDEPENDENCE"
Dedicated to rail against the "UNBLUSHING SUBSERVIENCE" of Edinburgh's unionist establishment press.
There must have been a time when you aspired to emulate some of the journalistic greats, before you sold out to become a troll!
133

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 10:22:14
137

In your opinion.
134

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 10:23:15
suchaparcelofrogues

Ofcourse I am happy SA is free from colonial rule and apartheid, because under those systems the majority of the people were subjected to oppression. The same is not true of Scotland - In Scotland people have freedom of movement, freedom of speech and freedom of expression. There is an abundance of work, there is a good social structure and a good quality of life. People can advance, they can study, they can make plenty of money and even leave to go on holiday when they want. In otherwords, Scotland is already free, she just happens to belong to a partnership that is mutually beneficial to her and the other 3 members.

GM - I dont believe you were rising to any bait, you are merely stating your case. It just isnt one I agree with.

You see, unlike some foreigners or less informed people who dont know much about Scotland - I know for sure that there is a definate and very real anti English under current in Scotland! I know what happens when England play football and I also know what happens when Scotland plays - and when it comes to the nationalists, the cheer for a Scotland win is NEVER as loud as it is for an England loss...Go figure!
That sort of thinking is carried over into everyday life by the nationalist and to deny it as such would be a falsehood.
Salmond beats his drum and you march, end of story!
135

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 10:24:20
137

They would be better off spending the money on setting up a clinic to wean cyber trolls away from their keyboards.
136

GM,

27/09/2008 10:24:53
@137

Trollometer Score - 3.2 our of 10

Originality - 0.5
Believability - 2.1 (started out well)
Responses before 'outing' as troll - 0.0
'Rage' factor - 0.6


overall - must try harder.
137

Martyk,

27/09/2008 10:28:23
With all the goings on in the world of high finance recently I have taken more of an interest and seen Scotland referred to as the fifth biggest financial centre in Europe ( though all the others seem to be cities not whole countries) and seperately Edinburgh as in the top ten financial centres in Europe. I am puzzled and hope someone can enlighten me. Scotland has two banks , soon to be one , locally owned and run. One insurance company , Standard Life . One Building Society , the Dunfermline. Quite a few fund managers and a fair bit of admin for foreign institutions but thats about it. Scotland has no Stock Exchange. No Bond market . No Commodities Exchanges. Not even a proper government really. So have I missed something? Is this Scotland as a major financial centre idea simply a national fantasy?
138

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/09/2008 10:29:00
AM2 in #40 includes a quote:

"Were Scotland to gain independence, IT WOULD BE THE RUMP UK, not Scotland, that would inherit membership of the EU" [MY CAPITALS]

Neatly contradicting himself in #48 where he includes a quote:

"Scottish Independence would create two new member states out of one. The remainder of the United Kingdom would not be in a more powerful position than Scotland."

The lesson here, AM2 is to be more selective with your cutting and pasting, lest you appear disingenuous.
139

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 10:32:10
143

What does it mean to be free from colonial rule?

We dont have national passports do you?
We dont have a national anthem do you?
We dont have international representation do you?
We dont have international embassies do you?
We dont have membership of the UN do you?
We dont have representation in the olympics do you?
We dont have the same international status as you "a freed colony"

Under the UK South Africans had freedom of speech, freedom of movement and freedom of expression so why were you so keen to be independent?
140

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/09/2008 10:34:53
#69 Actually, if you recall Bush was here for the G8 at Gleneagles. He even knocked down a polis with his bike.
141

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/09/2008 10:40:09
The EU would be falling over themselves to keep an independent Scotland as part of the club. Scotland would be accommodated in its new form with relative ease. That is the practical reality here folks !
142

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 10:41:32
146

"The national fantasy" is how well Scotland is represented within the union as you have so eloquently pointed out again.
143

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 10:44:03
143 See 148

What happened cat got yer keyboard?
144

Snowthistle,

Glasgow 27/09/2008 10:46:08
No 137 I've done all that - got the English spouse. I'm still thinking that independence might not be such a bad idea. I think we will all get along better when we are independent from each other.
As for American businessmen, they are the same as businessmen the world over, they are driven by profit. If it is commercially prudent to invest in Scotland they will, the decider will be profit not politics
145

Publius,

Girvan 27/09/2008 10:46:35
Lord Kerr's comments should not be dismissed out of hand.
(1) He was head of the diplomatic service, so he is speaking from professional knowledge. SNP supporters who are always quick to salute Alex Salmond's professional experience as an economist are contradicting themselves by dismissing Lord Kerr's professional experience as a diplomat.
(2) Spain (along with Cyprus) did veto collective recognition by the EU of Kossovo's independence, because it did not want to set a precedent for Catalonia and the Basque Country. So Spain might well cut up rough about the EU accpeting of an independent Scotland.

Incidentally, I can't see why SNP supporters are so upset by this. I am old enough to remember the SNP campaigning against the EEC during the referendum of 1975. So I don't see why they now want to join the EU. They can't have it both ways.
146

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 10:46:43
suchaparcelofrogues #148

1. Och shame, you poor wee thing. Yer passport like ALL of us in the UK says British. And under birthplace it says "somewhere in Scotland" awe diddums, what oppression.

2. There is nothing preventing Scotland introducing a national anthem - at the moment though, most nationalists are happy to sing about 700 year old wars and sending ancient armies home TAE THINK AGAIN. Poor wee souls, what a terrible life they are forced to live under this constant English oppression.

3. International representation you say! If Salmond stayed at home a little more often than visiting America you may have more representation at home.

4. International embassy! Oh but you do. I was once arrested on the Zambian border because my visa had expired (it hadnt actually, it was a Zambian officials oversight0 nevertheless as I was standing there waiting for these people to determine my fate I took a chance and ran to the nearby British embassy. Once inside I was untouchable and treated with the upmost respect and professionalism. AND ALL BECAUSE I WAS SCOTTISH, THUS BRITISH!

5. No membership at the UN? Nonsense, Britain does have membership at the UN. Oh you mean Scotland as an independent nation. Why would be bothered about that, its the "UNITED NATIONS" I would have thought the word "united" would have scared you off?

6.Representation at the olympics? Last time I checked Scottish athletes were allowed to compete

7. International status? Scotland has a grand international status. We are loved the world over,our whiskey is famous, our bagpipes are embraced and our kilts cause a stir. We are famous!

You cant see the wood for the trees. You see Scotland as state belonging to England because you have been programmed to see it that way - but the truth is that Scotland is a free nation who just happens to be part of a union.

147

Martyk,

27/09/2008 10:52:49
151; Not with you. Please expand.
148

Ananurhing,

27/09/2008 10:52:52
#137 Hunt

You are completely and utterly wrong. Your accusations simply reveal your own racist attitudes. Go away!
149

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 10:55:53
155

So you are simply unable to address the point and the true status of Scotland within the international community.
Its ok for South Africa to represent South Africa internationally outside of the UK but not alright for Scotland to represent Scotland internationally outside the UK.

"You cant see the wood for the trees. You see Scotland as state belonging to England because you have been programmed to see it that way - but the truth is that Scotland is a free nation who just happens to be part of a union."

lets substitute South Africa for Scotland and what do we get.

You cant see the wood for the trees. You see South Africa as state belonging to the British Empire because you have been programmed to see it that way - but the truth is that South Africa is a free nation who just happens to be part of an Empire.

Yes I see you point exactly.

150

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 11:00:51
156

Why? you have already made the point for me.
151

Ninian Reid,

Edinburgh 27/09/2008 11:05:07
Lord Who? Tell him from me, he's talking sheer, unadulterated poppycock.And in printing biased nonsense such as this, is it any wonder sales of the Scotsman are now in terminal freefall?
152

Wullie Anderson,

27/09/2008 11:05:08
Who cares?

We won't be independent any time soon, so let's get back to making the Union strong.

Who wants to be associated with all those tartan tran*vestites we now have become used to seeing at the Scotland games? Scottish Nationalism, or to put it another way....anti English racism.

Please don't bite, I won't be here to read the insular and shortbread tin answers.
153

Wullie Anderson,

27/09/2008 11:09:46
Once had the unenviable task of sitting for lunch with high ranking Nats in a comfy wee west highland hotel. All was fine during the meal, until a few sherbets had been consumed.

Then the true picture of Scottish Nationalism came out loud and clear. Racist bile against our southern neighbours, a massive inferiority complex and religious bigotry thrown in for good measure.

In fact one of those Nats runs this website and is a prominent journalist for the Scotsman in fact!

What was it he called the Nats in the east end? Now let me think for a minute.......Oh! that's right, I remember now.

Provisional SNP..

Charming individuals these people were. Not in my name!
154

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 11:15:57
Media

So explain again why its ok for South Africa to free itself from the British empire yoke and not Scotland?
155

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/09/2008 11:25:04
#162 Wullie Anderson

Any names to back up your 'story'??
156

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 11:25:52
Once had the unenviable task of sitting for lunch with high ranking Britnats in a comfy wee west highland hotel. All was fine during the meal, until a few sherbets had been consumed.

Then the true picture of British Nationalism came out loud and clear. Racist bile against our Northern neighbours, a massive superiority complex and nationalist bigotry thrown in for good measure.

In fact one of those BritNats runs this website and is a prominent journalist for the Scotsman in fact!

What was it he called the BritNats in the east end? Now let me think for a minute.......Oh! that's right, I remember now.

Provisional BNP..

Charming individuals these people were. Not in my name!
157

Grahamski,

Falkirk 27/09/2008 11:26:15
163
Scotland free itself from the British empire? What are you talking about, you deluded buffoon? Scotland was an enthusiastic and integral part of the British empire - we weren't the oppressed we were the oppressors!
158

Ananurhing,

27/09/2008 11:28:19
#161 Wullie

"We won't be independent any time soon, so let's get back to making the Union strong."

Eh? Thats called denial Wullie, and you're wrong on both counts! Anyway, you promised you wouldn't be here after #161, then spout garbage at #162.
Unionist speak with forked tongue! As usual!
159

Grahamski,

Falkirk 27/09/2008 11:28:32
165
Provisional BNP, never heard that one. I have heard of the provisional SNP however. Typical natz, accuse others of your own failings...and just hope nobody notices..
160

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/09/2008 11:28:41
#162 Wullie Anderson

And this 'religious' bigotry is interesting.

Would this be the old chestnuts

'Home rule means Rome rule' or

'Home rule means all the catholic schools will be banned'

Do tell us, oh wise one
161

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 11:29:49
166

In the same way that South Africa participated in introducing "Rhodesia" Zimbabwe into the Empire you mean? what were you then the oppressed or the oppressor I forget?
162

Martyk,

27/09/2008 11:30:28
I am becoming quite excited at the prospect of a Scottish empire come independence. Here is what our first overseas posession would look like ( not the green bits though). http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/map10.htm We could call it New Darien.
163

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 11:32:02
Provisional SNP, never heard that one. I have heard of the provisional BNP however. Typical Britnatz, accuse others of your own failings...and just hope nobody notices..
164

Martyk,

27/09/2008 11:33:02
Try again. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/map10.htm
165

Calvinist,

27/09/2008 11:33:13
A Grimm fairy tale:

Far far away in a distant land was the INDEPENDENT kingdom of Alba. Everyone was happy and loved each other because they were INDEPENDENT. Everyone was rich because they had lots of oil and whisky but there was no drunkenness or pollution because they were INDEPENDENT. There was great enterprise because INDEPENDENCE meant that the outside world could not harm Alba. All their capitalists were nice capitalists who paid no tax and were very happy and benevolent because they were INDEPENDENT. They all loved and respected the great leader (blessings etc. be upon him)who led them to INDEPENDENCE (he is now their king). He defeated the mighty Gorgon and the nasty people of the south. Yes ALBA was the happiest, most INDEPENDENT country in the world. And because it was so INDEPENDENT no one else new about it or even cared that it existed.
166

Grahamski,

Falkirk 27/09/2008 11:35:57
172
From an article by Phil Mac Giolla Bhain:
'....In the end the SNP Provos of the East End didn’t unseat labour (although we did get the best vote in Glasgow).
What we did do, I’m sure, is to plant a seed from within the East End Irish Catholic community...'
Now where's your reference to 'provisional BNP'?
167

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/09/2008 11:36:59
From ALBAMAC for all 'Scottish' unionists

I'm a father of 7, grandfather of 16, ex-professional soldier and a Scottish Nationalist. My family, like many others, has a huge stake in the future of our country.

I'd supported Labour from my early teens until my late fifties. It took me that long to abandon the forlorn hope that New Labour could deliver the fairer society that so many of my forebears and fellows had struggled for since the beginnings of the Labour Movement.

My grandfather and uncle died in the service of a nation that never was - Britain. My father served throughout WWII with comrades from around the British Isles and the world. My son-in-law had served in three wars by the time he left the Paras and planted his feet, permanently, on home soil.

New Labour is a collective insult to each and every Scottish soldier. While they polish their a rses on office chairs and spout their dishonest, derisive drivel, young Scots are fighting for their lives in Afghanistan and Iraq. Would Cairns or Browne dare to denounce any one of them on the grounds that their vision for Scotland's future doesn't serve the interests of the criminals and parasites who infest the Labour benches at Westminster and Holyrood?

We need only listen to the outpourings of cringing cowards in the Cabinet who, with blood and bile dripping from their twisted lips, dare to praise the courage of our soldiers and recite the stomach-turning eulogy that follows their deaths. Des Browne's nauseating performances are worthy of special mention, here. They would shrivel the souls of the living and the dead. He is a perfect example of the character and calibre of New Labour's finest! Men and women who, at every opportunity, snigger, sneer and openly insult our homeland, heritage and history, and have the effrontery to claim that they are our best hope for the future.

Exposed liars, thieves and fraudsters, unperturbed by the misery that they've caused and impervious to the law, retain th
168

Team Scotland,

, FC UK No! - 27/09/2008 11:37:00

Succession of States in cases of separation of parts of a State

1. When a part or parts of the territory of a State separate to form one or more States, whether or not the predecessor State continues to exist:

(a) any treaty in force at the date of the succession of States in respect of the entire territory of the predecessor State continues in force in respect of each successor State so formed;


Article 34 1(a). of the Vienna Convention on the Succession of States.


169

,

27/09/2008 11:37:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
170

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/09/2008 11:38:05
Continued,

Those who lay waste the common ground set neighbour against neighbour, kill community and destroy the ties that bind us as a people are everyman's enemies.
171

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 11:38:43
A Grimm fairy tale:

Far far away in a distant land was the BRITISH kingdom of Alba. Everyone was happy and loved each other because they were BRITISH. Everyone was rich because they had lots of oil and whisky but there was no drunkenness or pollution because they were BRITISH. There was great enterprise because BEING BRITISH meant that the outside world could not harm Alba. All their capitalists were nice capitalists who paid no tax and were very happy and benevolent because they were BRITISH. They all loved and respected the great leader (blessings etc. be upon him)who led them to THE UNION DIVIDEND (he is now their king). He defeated the mighty Alex and the nasty people of the North. Yes ALBA was the happiest, most BRITISH country in the world. And because it was so BRITISH no one else new about it or even cared that it existed.
172

Grahamski,

Falkirk 27/09/2008 11:40:44
jimmy Toller,
You've been posting this dreary propaganda for ages now. Who do you think can be ersed to read it?
173

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 11:44:39
175

WTF is that supposed to mean? a sectarian bigot uses a sectarian term and its a form of reference?
Should we now just commonly refer to the union as the Phuqing union then?
Idiot troll.
174

Calvinist,

27/09/2008 11:46:03
#180
He defeated the mighty Alex and the nasty people of the North

So you admit defeat then?! At last an SNP supporter with humility

PS I agree that Alex is pretty nasty.

Enjoy you fantasy while it lasts.
175

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 11:48:11
183

Its a fairy tale phuq wit didnt you read it from the top?
176

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/09/2008 11:48:26
#181 Grahamski,Falkirk

It's read and approved by a lot of people who care for their country.

I will keep posting it as long as it annoys clowns like you.
177

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 11:48:46
Sucharogue

South Africa is no longer under the rule of colonial BRITAIN (That being Scotland, N.Ireland, England and Wales) The union nations who are still all powerful and exceptionally wealthy! The four of them are united and as one they are pretty darn powerful, as two thirds of the worlds land mass found out.

You speak about Scotland as if she is colonised. But she is not colonised. Are you suggesting that England is a colony of the powerful union member known as Scotland? Ofcourse not, so again!

Scotland is part of that colonial rule you are speaking about. Quite different to the position that SA found herself under.
178

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 11:51:06
186

Scotland was in fact the second nation to be colonised within the "British Empire" the first was Wales.
I dont know how far down the line South Africa is but you get the point.
179

Calvinist,

27/09/2008 11:53:59
183 OOOOH have I got you rattled? Temper, temper, little one.

Next time do better - ever heard of PLAGIARISM?

They it would be a bit much to expect an SNP supporter to come out with an original thought.

Enjoy your day- I'm off.
180

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 11:56:36
188

Are you allowed to drink alcopops in cyber cafes these days? especially at your obvious age? better keep one eye oot fur the polis.
181

Calvinist,

27/09/2008 11:56:57
187

By the way learn some history - remember Edward I little adventure in Ireland?

No I thought not.
182

Grahamski,

Falkirk 27/09/2008 11:57:12
182
A sectarian bigot? A SNP activist actually, describing his experiences campaigning in the east end of Glasgow for the SNP.
Your moronic accusations are laughable.
183

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 11:57:53
#187 sucharogue

You are whinging and moaning about a 700 year old union and pretending that Scotland is somehow at the mercy of England..
This independence that you crave is not already there for you to enjoy and has been for centuries. The FREEDOM that you believe you dont have is there for you to take advantage of.

You are not at the mercy of England, and the English are not at the mercy of the Scots. Together we are one union dedicated to a better life for all parties concerned.

Scotland, Wales, N Ire and England united and formed a formidable partnership! It is still a formidable partnership and one that we should all be proud of.

I am proud to be Scottish, but I am also proud to be part of a truly great union partnership called Britain.
184

Grahamski,

Falkirk 27/09/2008 12:02:09
185
No Jimmy, it is read and approved by clowns who have an inferiority complex and grievance fixation. The rest of us dismiss it as the ramblings of a deranged nut.
Please carry on posting though, the rest of us will carry on ignoring your bletherings from the lunatic fringe.
185

Calvinist,

27/09/2008 12:02:50
189

OK that was almost an original thought- pretty stupid one though.

Well in teenage parlance 'Lighten up Dude'

You seen to take yourself ever so seriously.

Got any good repostes?

Go on try to make me laugh.
186

European Scot,

27/09/2008 12:03:28
181 Grahamski

" jimmy Toller,
You've been posting this dreary propaganda for ages now. Who do you think can be ersed to read it?"

I have enjoyed reading once again the post you refer to, but am quite happy to see it repeated, unlike glancing over your efforts today, which hopefully won't be.
187

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 12:06:29
192

Again why dont we just substitute South Africa into yer rant.

You are whinging and moaning about a 700 year old Empire and pretending that South Africa is somehow at the mercy of The British Empire..
This independence that you crave is not already there for you to enjoy and has been for centuries. The FREEDOM that you believe you dont have is there for you to take advantage of.

You are not at the mercy of The British Empire, and the South Africans are not at the mercy of the Brits. Together we are one empire dedicated to a better life for all parties concerned.

South Africa and Britain united and formed a formidable partnership! It is no longer a formidable partnership and one should all be ashamed because of it.

I am proud to be South African, but I am also ashamed to be independent from Britain.
188

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 12:06:42
Scotland, Wales, England and N.Ireland are like California, Texas and Oregon (all united under one united kingdom or states for the greater good of all parties concerned)

Scotland, Wales, England and N.Ireland are ONE! Our Britishness is what makes us unique, our Britishness is a gift and we should all be proud of it. And thankfully most people in Scotland are proud to be British.
189

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 12:07:36
194

Phuq off big nose.
190

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 12:13:02
197
South Africa, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Nigeria are like California, Texas and Oregon (all united under one continent for the greater good of all parties concerned)

South Africa, Zimbabwe, Kenya and Nigeria are INDEPENDENT! Our African status is what makes us unique, our African status is a gift and we should all be proud of it. And thankfully most people in Africa are proud to be Africans.
NOT BRITISH.
191

Calvinist,

27/09/2008 12:15:35
198 Phuq off big nose.

Charming!- by way are you implying that I'm Jewish?

Interesting collection of bigots we have in Utopian Land of Alba eh!
192

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 12:16:10
Think about the Scottish pshyche for a second.

We have table clothes with the story "whas like us darn few an their awe deid"

This story is an attempt to celebrate Scotland's achievments during the great period of enlightenment, but the fact that the English are the brunt of the joke tells you more about the sentiment felt toward England than it does about the truly astonishing inventions.

Then we have this song called "Flower of Scotland"
Again, instead of celebrating Scotland the song is about getting back at England.

Then there is the pitiable inability to cheer louder for a Scotland win as opposed to an England loss.

The constant groan that is nationalist whinging coupled with the short sighted belief that Scotland is some shackled nation under English siege is what makes most nationalists so completely alien to me.

193

Thistledhu,

27/09/2008 12:17:48
oh yes the EU would be reluctant to have a country self sufficent in energy with a growing capacity in renewable energy and control of a large portion of its sea area,s !!!!
this argument dosent stand up to much scrutiny
194

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 12:20:09
Rogue


You dont have an argument anymore!

You are going round in circles clutching at straws and banging your nationalist drum to the tune of "we are oppressed and shackled Scotsmen"

Please do me a favour and grow up! Use the system to your benefit and enjoy the massive privaledge that comes with such a partnership!

Your opportunities are endless - see that, focus on it and try and rid your self of the small minded SNP nonsense that you embrace without knowing why.
195

Scheme,

27/09/2008 12:22:02
A lot of Americans have a great affinity for Scotland and all things Scottish. When I was last in the USA, the owner of the bar I was drinking in proudly declared “I’m Scottish” on hearing my accent, he was of course of Scottish decent. He asked me about the Scottish parliament, the SNP and the direction that Scotland was moving in politically, and concurred with my opinion that independence was the way forward for Scotland.

There are millions of Americans with Scottish linage who feel the same way, with many being influential within the business community. To suggest that the USA would be reluctant to do business with Scotland is completely and utterly ridiculous.
196

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 27/09/2008 12:22:49
153 Snowthisle, you and me both, but that's something our unionist friends don't like to hear or to be put around too much as it knocks a dent in their your all racist rubbish.

BTW, have you ever met a racist who was bigoted against only the one race, yet that's the impression anyone would get from their claims.

BTW 2 ever noticed how many of them come on hear to knock the SNP and independence but don't have the guts to say what party they support.
197

Calvinist,

27/09/2008 12:24:19
203

It's fairly obvious that the esteemed rougues has a serious frontal lobe problem. In other words the poor soul can't help it.
198

AJ Fife,

27/09/2008 12:24:54
Desperate and very contrived journalism once again from the Hootsmon!

I'm pretty sure the old colonies would regard independence as a statutory right for Scotland. Using the American Revolution as an example, the reasons behind the triumphs at Lexington, Bunkerhill etc are still valid, especially when you consider the current interference by Westminster in Scottish affairs.

199

GM,

27/09/2008 12:26:43
@203

"...enjoy the massive privaledge that comes with such a partnership!"


you owe me the cost of a new monitor. I was drinking a coffee when I read that.
200

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 12:27:04
AND SENT THEM HOMEWARD TAE THINK AGAIN!

Those words alone tell you how sad some Scots have become. A shame really!!
201

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 27/09/2008 12:27:31
Aye, there must be a By-election in the air, the unionists are gathering again!

They should be good for a laugh if nothing else, the great thing about them of course is, we already know what most of their lines of attack will be as wittnesed not only by this article but some of the comments after it!

202

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 12:30:14
GM

You cannot deny that Scotland, Wales, England and N.Ireland gain far more together than they would apart.

Therefore, any support for independence must stem from an inherent bête-noir of England, probably manifested from years of misguided indoctrination.

203

Ewan M,

27/09/2008 12:31:20
Imagine listening and taking on board someone with huge experience on these areas, that would be stupid right! All the Nationalists are the same the say there listening, but the ain't hearing.

A vote for the SNP is a vote for uncertainty.
204

Ewan M,

27/09/2008 12:34:24
When are people who support Independence going to stop letting their herat rule their heads. Independence effects far too many people for you to base you judgement on that.
205

Calvinist,

27/09/2008 12:34:40
210

We are not Unionists, we are true Scottish patriots who care about the future of our country and do not want to see it hijacked by the narrow-minded bigots who hold a view that in order to be a Scot one has to adhere to an exclusive set of principles and beliefs. In other words we support tolerance and moderation, unlike thoise on the fringes of the SNP who will destroy this country (and I mean Scotland).
206

Ewan M,

27/09/2008 12:35:38
#210 and your lines of arguments aren't obvious?
207

GM,

27/09/2008 12:35:44
@211

"misguided"

the only word of any relevance in your contributions today.
208

Media 1,

cape town 27/09/2008 12:38:31
As we speak, Scotland is part of the union - YASSSSSSSSSSSSS!

That is enough for me.
209

Ewan M,

27/09/2008 12:38:34
#214 I wish everyone could see what you see. Its poeple like us who wont tolerate hate based on misguided views of English people that promote a forward modern scotland.
210

GM,

27/09/2008 12:38:47
@214

ah yes, tolerance and moderation.

The mainstay of the unionists.
Could you and media please stop... my monitor cant handle any more coffee choking splutters...


Rule Brittania eh!

Thanks for the laughs so far today - must have a bite to eat but I may return later to see what hilarious unionist soundbites you've added to today's pile!
211

JG,

Fife 27/09/2008 12:39:02
So what are you all saying then? The American diplomat DIDN'T warn about US businessmen being horrified over Scottish independence?
212

GM,

27/09/2008 12:40:26
@218

hate english people?

who?

hate the westminster government that has managed to pull the wool over folks like your eyes for so long you actually *still* believe they have scotland's interests at heart!

oh my sides.
213

Ewan M,

27/09/2008 12:42:18
I see Jimmy Le Pie is out with the usual chip on his shoulder and sense of victimhood. address your own problems and stop blaming everyone else Jimmy. Media 1 I find you comments refreshenly sensible. thank you there are other out there!
214

Ewan M,

27/09/2008 12:43:55
What wrong with your sides GM? Are you choking on this realism?
215

Calvinist,

27/09/2008 12:46:42
It's fairly obvious that 'Hate Westminster' is code for 'Hate England/English'. After all you are the people who refer to Westminster as the 'English Parliament'.

However here's your chance to clear things up. Please state categorically that you do not hold a grudge against England or the people of England then I will accept your arguement.
216

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 12:47:05
203

You are just one sick deluded puppy.
Nothing you have posted makes any sense in any form its not even an arguement in support of the union its a rant. Pointless, empty, illogical, insensible, rabid, manic, inaccurate and just plain dumb.
Completely clueless as to who and what you really are.
I honestly wonder what your real ties to Scotland are supposed to be.
217

Ananurhing,

27/09/2008 12:47:12
#183 & 188 Calvinist

Good to see you picking a fight with yourself. Typical calvinist! Could suck the joy or anything remotely positive out of a room from a mile away!
218

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 12:49:16
211

"You cannot deny that Scotland, Wales, England and N.Ireland gain far more together than they would apart."

Of course we can you w*nker we do it every day on here.
219

brownlie,

27/09/2008 12:50:41
214 Calvinist

" ... we support tolerance and moderation ..."

Would you like to comment on remarks made by the arch-unionist Grahamski which includes words like "buffoon", "morons", "clowns" "lunaticfringe"

or someone called Calvinist who said " ..its fairly obvious that the rougues(sic) have a serious frontal lobe problem.."
220

European Scot,

27/09/2008 12:50:48
197 Media 1

" Scotland, Wales, England and N.Ireland are like California, Texas and Oregon (all united under one united kingdom or states for the greater good of all parties concerned)"

Here we go again, comparing the Nation of Scotland, with States, in this case of America.
When will some of you Unionists try and understand the difference, it obviously doesn't suit you to look at reality.
That would also seem to be the case when making comments like:-

" Scotland, Wales, England and N.Ireland are ONE! Our Britishness is what makes us unique, our Britishness is a gift and we should all be proud of it. And thankfully most people in Scotland are proud to be British."

The Referendum will give you a much clearer picture, even at your distance.
You, and one or two others on here, have got some reality heading your way, as yet another country in this World gains its Independence.
221

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 12:52:20
212

Well I am certainly going to vote for them so where is the uncertainty in that?
222

Calvinist,

27/09/2008 12:53:47
226

Thanks for the advice- I'll bear it in mind.

How noble of you to come to the aid of poor wee rouges.
223

Kenny A,

27/09/2008 12:54:40
I was talking with an American several years ago regarding Scotland, he knew a fair bit about certain parts of our history mainly through watching Braveheart. Scary stuff but when asked to show where it was on an atlas he pointed to Iceland. The thing is this is not a one of occurance. The British Isles are refered to by many in the US as England. Scottish independence would probably be positive as regards the US because then hopefully when they look at an atlas the would notice the name of the country.

Not an anti American comment as I have had similar problems regarding the location of Scotland with many people of differing nationalities throught the world.
224

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 12:56:35
217

Aye Scotland is in the union and you enjoy it from the other side of the world.
225

Calvinist,

27/09/2008 12:57:51
228

Come on admit it you're enjoying this.

By the way I'm always willing to accept constructive criticism from my elders and betters- thanks for correcting my abysmal spelling.
226

Yeti,

27/09/2008 12:58:38
lol I can just see the letters in the Telegraph over this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7637120.stm
227

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 12:59:44
#93 #96 GM
#147 connaughtboy

You both seem to have misunderstood (or misrepresented) the purpose of the quotes which I posted in #39 and #40.

I posted them to demonstrate that, contrary to the SNP’s claims, eminently qualified legal experts are divided on the issue of how and on what kinds of terms an independent Scotland might accede to EU membership.

I’m not in a position to judge who, if anyone, may be correct. Perhaps neither are they, given the range of unknown and unpredictable factors. But it’s certainly a grey area, and where the SNP really show themselves up is in their inability to accept that simple fact.

Compare and contrast...

Nicola Sturgeon: “I don't think the legal position… is in any doubt.”
Alex Salmond: “all serious international legal opinion is agreed…”
vs
Jim Murphy, Minister for Europe: “Despite what the SNP claims, the weight of legal opinion suggests that, far from automatic membership, an independent Scotland would find itself outside the EU and needing to apply to regain membership.”

So the SNP is dogmatic about this, brushing aside any and all objections as not being “serious”. But a more objective appraisal would be that this is uncharted territory and that there is a range of legal opinion whose centre of gravity is actually closer to Lord Kerr’s contentions.
228

JG,

Fife 27/09/2008 13:00:34
#232 Kenny A

"The British Isles are refered to by many in the US as England."

That's perfectly true - well, in my experience anyway!. So, if an American company is planning on starting a business in this area, who do you think he'll go for; a country he's heard of and knows where it is or one he identifies as Iceland?
229

vimto,

27/09/2008 13:01:02
GM. What a vile,bilious,cretin you are,it's only through people like you that Britain finds itself in the situation we are today, salmond thrives on this kind of racism,but let me tell you,you and your kind will never break this union,people are waking up to salmonds clap-trap and racist rhetoric.
230

brownlie,

27/09/2008 13:01:57
218 Ewan M

"its poeple(sic)like us that won't tolerate hate..."

Would you agree with me that there seems to be a modicum of hate contained in the remarks I quoted at #228 ?
231

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 13:06:13
237

" posted them to demonstrate that, contrary to the SNP’s claims, eminently qualified legal experts are divided on the issue of how and on what kinds of terms an independent Scotland might accede to EU membership."

Not strictly true the SNP have impartial legal and political sourses to back up their claims you can only produce sourses with an axe to grind against Scottish Independence or the self determination of small European states.
You have no impartial nor neutral sources to back up your claims.
The difference is deafening.
232

brownlie,

27/09/2008 13:06:30
235 Calvinist

Your description of me is probably 50% correct!
233

brownlie,

27/09/2008 13:08:54
239 vimto

Good afternoon - you've started off well today. Can you give us some examples of Salmond's "racist rhetoric"?
234

GM,

27/09/2008 13:11:27
@239 vimto

Thanks for that post vimto... I would normally ask how anything I have posted is 'vile' or indeed 'racist' but since I know I don't do either, I'll leave it up to others to judge, on this thread, both my and your contributions.
235

GM,

27/09/2008 13:13:30
@237

I accept your post AM2 but with one small adjustment -

Given the government and opposition both seem to realise there is a substantial body of legal opinion allowing scotland automatic entry to the EU, I would adjust your last sentence to swing the 'centre of gravity' away from Lord Kerr's opinion.
236

brownlie,

27/09/2008 13:13:34
237 AM2

Well, if Jim Murphy said that it must be true.

Perhaps you can tell us what Jim Murphy, the Minister for Europe, is doing about the situation where Scottish fishermen are having to dump fish, keeping the price artifically high, to adhere to their quotas whereas other European nations have different obligations?
237

GM,

27/09/2008 13:15:47
@224

Hating Westminster and Hating England or English people are completely and utterly exclusive.

Anyone with common sense can see a clear distinction.

Anyone with a pro-union chip on their shoulder probably cannot.
238

Ewan M,

27/09/2008 13:16:28
Bownlie no I repsect your comments they are never over the top. Someone like you can surely see problems with some of the vile posted on here, as a frequent poster you must see guys lie suchaparcelofrogues who have to abuse people instead of debate.

As for salmond there is an anti English undertone in nearly every thing he does. I used to be an SNP supporter, but just had too many worries at the sentiment of a lot of its supporters so left. many supported it because they deemed it against England instead of basing there supoort on policies.
239

Ewan M,

27/09/2008 13:18:09
I rarely see Unionsit chips on the shoulder. I see unionist willing to stand up and not accept anti English sentiment by many posters as justifiction for Independence.
240

GM,

27/09/2008 13:24:07
@249

and so would the vast majority (if not all) nationalists. If there is a lunatic fringe of SNP supporters whose whole raison d'etre is independence due to hatred of 'the English', then thats exactly what they are - lunatics and a fringe.

No more or less than every political party has political extremists in their midst.


S'funny though how through all this, British Patriotism seems never to be criticised but Scottish Patriotism is viewed differently?!?

It seems to be a scottish patriot you have to be unionist, but if you are nationalist and patriotic you are a 'vile, racist bigot'...

the mind boggles
241

Weegiewarbler,

Docked Today 27/09/2008 13:24:49
Did anyone else catch Browns just made remarks in the US?

He apparently wants to write Bush a blank cheque for a banks bailout.

Quote from Brown:
"Whatever the details of it, it is the right thing to do."

++++++++++++++

How about being a friend to the disadvantaged - instead of promising their futures to fix the mess he and his created with deregulation that led to rampant greed !!!

Sorry it's off topic - this one got under our skin.
242

brownlie,

27/09/2008 13:25:21
248 Ewan

Sorry to disagree but I do not think that either unionists or nationalists have a monopoly on abuse.

I think that you are confusing Salmond's attitude to the UK parliament as being anti-English. I have known him for a long time, when I was in the opposite camp, and I have never heard him make anti-English remarks.

I think a lot of individuals on here equate the UK Government as being representative of England and any remarks regarding that government is classed as being anti-English.
243

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/09/2008 13:28:24
Judging by the number of different unionist monikers around today, would I be right in thinking that Carstairs is having an open day??

Is the medication held back on a Saturday??

Why don't we all meet next Saturday in Markinch High Street for a debate??
You will all be canvassing for the union in Glenrothes??
244

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 13:29:30
248

Debate? point to one post on here where you have made any effort to debate.
245

AJ Fife,

27/09/2008 13:30:17
#249,

What anti-English sentiment?

All right minded Scots embrace our southern neighbours and look forward to an 'equal' alliance in the future.

Every nationalist I know have nothing but respect for English people and the English culture. You are aware of the healthy English representation within the Scottish National Party?

Your Leader, Mr Salmond and the SNP embrace all cultures within Scotland.
246

brownlie,

27/09/2008 13:31:36
253 Jimmy

Yes, indeed we will. Anyway, I'm off to Shawlands to support the arch-unionist Spook in his hour - if he lasts that long - of need!
247

JG,

Fife 27/09/2008 13:32:52
#250 GM

"It seems to be a scottish patriot you have to be unionist, but if you are nationalist and patriotic you are a 'vile, racist bigot'..."

I have posted on these pages for quite a while now (I don't support any political party - except maybe "None of the above" :-)) and have found that if I make a remark that could be in any way construed as critical of the SNP I'm branded a 'traitor', 'not Scottish' and told 'if I don't like it I can leave'.
248

Ewan M,

27/09/2008 13:33:52
Ah the Pie Man back with more of nothing....I honestly reckon you are repsonsible for losing SNP support with your posts.

suchaparcelofrogues every post, don't need to stoop to call people names either unlike you.......

Sorry guys its Saturday and I have a life I'm away to the pub..
249

Gerry McGuigan,

Dundee 27/09/2008 13:35:41
I seem to remember that one of the big arguments against the establishment of the devolved parliament was that business would flee the country. I see also that some businesses are leaving England for Ireland.
250

Ewan M,

27/09/2008 13:36:48
JG like you i don't consistently vote for anyone, i have in fact voted for every party at some time or another. So i'm glad you made that point about abuse as it is worringly true. The Pie Man is on of the worst even after me asking him to cool down his remarks.
251

clan_mackay,

27/09/2008 13:36:56

“Yer aw jist anti-english racists!”

Because we wish a Scottish Government that’s in control of all its own affairs, including immigration?
That makes us pro-Scots.
Because we dispute the daily ‘pro-unionist’ bias that the media feeds us?
That makes us pro-Scots.
Because we point out things like discovering oil should have made us richer, not poorer?
That makes us pro Scots.
Because we complained when the International Maritime Border was recently ‘modified’ so that our neighbour could lay claim to Scottish Waters?
That makes us pro-Scots.
Because we consider that our taxes would be better spent on welfare, not warfare?
That makes us pro-Scots.
Because we refuse to believe that Scotland is in any way ‘inferior’, or some kind of ‘junior partner’; believing instead that she could manage perfectly well without any partners?
That makes us pro-Scots.
Because we know for certain that Scotland subsidises England, and are not afraid to say so?
That makes us pro-Scots.
Because we would prefer that rural Scots are able to obtain adequate housing in Scotland, even if that means penalising the ‘holiday cottage’ or ‘second home’ brigades?
That makes us pro-Scots.
Because we want Scotland’s foreign affairs to reflect our view of the world, and not the view of a sad and failing Empire?
That makes us pro-Scots.
Because we think Scotland’s educational infrastructure is being deliberately mismanaged to permit the ‘anglicisation’ of ourschools and universities?
That makes us pro-Scots.
252

GM,

27/09/2008 13:39:07
@259

England recently changed legislation so that empty properties would pay full business rates (a change to the hundreds of years old principle that rates are a tax on occupation)

The change never happened in Scotland.

Just another example of how Scotland can and does encourage business while England and Wales under the westminster government penalise theirs.
253

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 13:39:09
252

We have a British establishment which not only uses its power to abuse the nations outside of England but also the average English citizen themselves.
It is a vile institute which believes in elitism, empire, and subtle oppression.
It pretends to nurture democracy and free speech while at the same time smothering democratic aspirations by removing choice and kills free speech by taking control of all media outlet for it in order to manipulate and filter it.
We are all aware of it we all experiance it only some of us choose to support it ignore it or pretend it doesnt exist.
Will Scotland be a better place without it?
Why not?
254

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 13:39:57
#241 #245

The SNP generally cite one of six people in support of their position, the first being Lord Mackenzie-Stuart. But in fact, he only said this:

“Independence would leave Scotland and something called the ‘rest’ in the same legal boat. If Scotland had to reapply, so would the rest. I am puzzled at the suggestion that there would be would be a difference in the status of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom in terms of Community law if the Act of Union is dissolved.”

Not quite the same as the SNP’s claim, is it?

Secondly, the late Émile Noêl, former President of the European Commission. I dealt with his remark in #48 above. It doesn’t actually agree with the SNP’s position.

Thirdly, the late Robin Cook. But all he actually said was: “It's in the nature of the European Union, it welcomes all-comers and Scotland would be a member”. I would have little doubt that’s true. But of course it says nothing about the application process or entry conditions.

Fourthly, the SNP claims heavyweight support from Eamonn Gallagher, former Director General of the European Commission. He said:

“In my view, there could be no sustainable legal or political objection to separate Scottish membership of the European Community. A democratic Scotland, fully capable of accepting and exercising its responsibilities in the European Union, answers completely to the constitutional and statutory requirements of membership, and the Community – with its customary practical ingenuity – could readily resolve the institutional questions that arise in, for example, those of Scotland’s voting weight in the Council, membership of Parliament, membership of the Commission and so on.”

That’s a similar argument to Robin Cook’s. But again, it’s by no means the same as the SNP’s claim of “automatic” membership.

Fifthly, French advocate Maître Xavier de Roux, who in 1989 said:

“Scotland is a part of the Common Market territory by virtue of the United Kingdom’s accession
255

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 13:40:50
Fifthly, French advocate Maître Xavier de Roux, who in 1989 said:

“Scotland is a part of the Common Market territory by virtue of the United Kingdom’s accession to the Treaty of Rome and by application of the Treaty of Union of 1707. If the Treaty of Union was revoked and if Scotland recovered its international sovereignty, it would be accepted within the Common Market without further formality.”

Ah, finally! That’s much closer to actual support for the SNP’s position. According to his argument, the EU Treaty includes Scotland within its remit as the UK was acting on Scotland’s behalf when it joined the European Communities in 1973. So, on independence, Scotland could not be regarded as a new applicant state.

Finally, Prof Neil MacCormick. But he’s a former vice-president of the SNP. Enough said!

So, you see – the weight of evidence certainly isn’t on the nationalist side.
256

Ewan M,

27/09/2008 13:41:05
#261 That makes you pro Nationalists not pro Scots, something that some Nationalists don't comprehend. I'm pro scots and anti nationalist.
257

GM,

27/09/2008 13:44:01
@257

well, although i vote SNP I have made plenty of remarks disagreeing with SNP policy - but have never been subjected to abuse other than by unionists.

Its swings and roundabouts really. The forum gives an opportunity to anonymously post and the old 'keyboard warrior' sometimes comes to the fore - from all sides.

After all, according to Vimto today I am a "vile,bilious,cretin" and he doesn't even know me.

Basically this is a non-story today... Everyone knows there is a heap of legal opinion confirming Scotland's automatic entry to the EU in the event of independence... the only barriers would be politically fabricated.
258

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 13:44:59
Re: anti-English hatred, am I the first person in this long thread to register my disagreement with PJ07's post #3, in which he refers to "the hated English"?
259

JG,

Fife 27/09/2008 13:47:11
#260 Ewan M
I'm not sure who has hurled those rocks at me, but it was certainly more than 1 poster! I also read #261 Clam Mackay's remarks. His logic doesn't follow - most of the things he cites doesn't necessarily make him 'pro-Scots' - it would just make him an SNP supporter, while some of the other stuff (like disagreeing with dumping over-quota fish) just makes him 'not stupid'. Plus the 'Empire' finished YEARS ago - try to keep up!!
260

GM,

27/09/2008 13:48:42
@264

AM2

until you have full access to the same legal opinion and advisors the government has, and can post same here to demonstrate membership would not be forthcoming, then I am inclined to believe them and not you.

I would refer you to my post at 108 where Labours representative of the european and external relations team confimred that such a body of legal opinion does exist in the government and that she only has queries in political terms on the subject of membership.


Hence, the government believe they would get membership.

Labour believe they would get membership.

So why is it you seem to feel, from a few outsiders comments, that Scotland wouldn't?


Hypothetically, (and a straight yes or no (for once) would be appreciated)...
If Scotland gained independence do you think it would become a member of the EU?

yes or no?
261

Davie from Irvine,

Auld Irvine in Ayrshire 27/09/2008 13:50:28
268 as an SNP member i have to agree with you on this one, i dont like comments like post 3 referring to the English as hated, it is not SNP talk and is unhelpfulto the case for independence.
262

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 13:50:49
#267 GM

Where is this "heap of legal opinion"? Saying it exists isn't the same as it actually existing! I examined the SNP's case above, and frankly there's not much to it.

That's not to say they're wrong, before you misconstrue me again.
263

Ewan M,

27/09/2008 13:53:40
#270 The simple answer is nobody knows. So we have the cahnce to continue as we are or take massive risks with Scotland future that's exactly why the SNP will never win. There taken Scotland to the casino and gambling with it all.
264

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 27/09/2008 13:53:52
120# According to the Scottish Council [for] Development [and] Industry, Scotland is still one of the largest European recipients of inward investment, especially from the United States.

This information must be accurate because the S.C.D.I. is itself an apolitical business forum although many of its members are affiliated to CBI(Scotland).
265

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 13:54:32
264
"The SNP generally cite one of six people in support of their position, the first being Lord Mackenzie-Stuart. But in fact, he only said this:"

Generally? Not always then?

"If Scotland had to reapply, so would the rest. I am puzzled at the suggestion that there would be would be a difference in the status of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom in terms of Community law if the Act of Union is dissolved.”"

So what? its clear as day IF SCOTLAND HAD TO REAPPLY.

Nowhere in this quote is he agreeing with the argument that Scotland HAS TO REAPPLY.
He is not disagreeing with the SNP postion he is highlighting it by showing the ridiculousness of the union argument. which is obvious even to you.

“There is no precedent or provision for the expulsion of a member state, therefore Scottish Independence would create two new member states out of one. The remainder of the United Kingdom would not be in a more powerful position than Scotland. Unless Scotland expressed a wish to come out of Europe while gaining Independence, the will of the people would be interpreted as a desire to retain the European status quo.”

His opinion may refute my arguement but not the SNPs arguement so whats your point? I am not the SNP and neither is my wife I represent my own views as I see them.
266

Ewan M,

27/09/2008 13:56:00
#269 and #271 hear hear. Thanks #271 there are not many SNP supporters on this forum that have your sentiments. i agree it is totally detrimental to the nationalist cause. All the best i'm definitely going to the pub now.
267

GM,

27/09/2008 13:56:42
@272

Labour even acknowledge the weight of legal opinion that exists.

Where?

How would I know? Within government itself?
It certainly is enough that labours own rep on europe and external relations confirmed its existence.

Perhaps Labour and SNP have contrived a big fat lie?

no?
I don't think so either.
268

Rickie,

27/09/2008 13:57:54
Lord Kerr = 0

Essentially who the hell is he, now?

Been and done and rich and comfortable, another Gordon Brown and Blair clone saying the USA has a say in our future.

I'm getting seriously peeved at these no lifes (as it's all paid for) making decisions for me, who lives on a finite budget.

Name and address can be supplied if they would like to try a week on my income, even a day (pro rata), they wouldn't last 1 hour - so who is the best at judging economies?

The challenge is set - get him down to me to suffer the "real" side of life he's in a dream land about.

Is he capable?
Is he willing to back up his statements?
Is he - no he's not.

My price of a pint of milk is going to be set by the US is it?

GRRRR!

One more twit to insist we get the hell out of the "UK" and get into Europe while we still can, as in have any reserves (gold - cough!) left that haven't been sold off.

Sack your reporters (this paper)- get people that can and will ask questions for the real world.
269

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 13:58:21
264

That’s a similar argument to Robin Cook’s. But again, it’s by no means the same as the SNP’s claim of “automatic” membership.

So what? there are other Legal views which do support the SNP claims of "automatic" membership and none of these quotes deny automatic membership they all only enhance Scotlands rights to remain with the EU after independence.

You have made no substantial point to back up your claims but then I dont believe your even trying to. Its just business as usual stir the blog and b*gger off.
270

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire 27/09/2008 14:00:26
Ewan @ 276 I have been an SNP activist for 32 years and have never heard anti English sentiments from the members. It is in fact taboo to be racist towards English or any other nationals.
271

GM,

27/09/2008 14:01:05
@278

the real reason for US intervention in any independence debate is NATO.

Dressing it up as EU is obfuscation and sh*t-stirring
272

Ewan M,

27/09/2008 14:01:32
#278 yeah Rickie your far more qualified than him!!!!!!! Lots of luck.
273

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 14:02:40
265

So, you see – the weight of evidence certainly isn’t on the nationalist side.

I see the exact opposite but then I am not being paid to lie and deceive.

Everything you have posted supports the SNP claims and your interpretation is well frankly purile and would baffle anybody not used to the way you operate.
274

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 14:03:32
#277 GM

You've lost me now. I quoted Jim Murphy accurately. He is of the opinion that the weight of legal opinion is contrary to the SNP's position. You're talking as though the opposite is the case.
275

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 14:06:35
There is no evidence that P107 at post 3 is a Scotnat anybody with any affilitation can post anything on here e.g

Scotland is a toilet full of whinging jock girlie skirted pansies who deserve to be nothing but servile to their English masters.

Not a view I share but one even I can express.
276

Davie from Irvine,

Auld Irvine Toun Ayrshire 27/09/2008 14:07:44
I know independence in Europe is SNP policy, but i would like to hear some views and discussion, like, do we really need to be in the E U ?, could we trade like Norway, and prosper ? for example E U fishermen are over fishing around our coast, A lot of Scottish fishing boats have been de commissioned, Boats are tied due to qoutas been used up ect.
277

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 14:07:46
277

So does AM2.
278

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 14:08:46
286

Yep but first we have to gain independence or else we dont get the choice.
279

GM,

27/09/2008 14:08:51
@265

nice assumption AM2
"So, you see – the weight of evidence certainly isn’t on the nationalist side."

this statement alone is why no-one here really ever bothers now about your spin...

You take a few selected comments from the web and present them as a 'certainty' in terms of 'evidence'!!


If only you could step outside your own ego for one second (difficult given its the size of the planet) and see these *suppositions* of yours that you dress up as *fact* - its quite funny really!



I still recall a few exchanges in months and years gone by where even when presented with black and white evidence you still attempted to spin away (like a dervish) to avoid the simple conclusion that you sometimes get things wrong.


Your blog is no different... trawling the web for anti unionist sentiment and pulling it all together in one place in an attempt to present some of the more outlandish statements as the generallity of opinion by nationalists!
And that us why you fail. Its so transparent to today's more savvy 'man in the street'.
280

AM2,

Scotland,UK 27/09/2008 14:09:05
#283 parcel

Eh? "Paid to lie and deceive"? Where do you get this stuff?!

In posts #39 and #40 I posted half a dozen views which, in addition to Lord Kerr's run counter to the SNP's. Then in #264 and #265 I ran through the half dozen people whose comments the SNP use to bolster their argument, and demonstrated that in some cases their views don't actually align with the SNP.

That should at least be sufficient to demonstrate that when the SNP says, matter of fact, that "Scotland and the remaining parts of the UK would be automatic members of the EU", they're not being straight with us about the actual complexity of the issue.

Anyway, enough. You've just reminded me of why I stopped posting here.
281

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire 27/09/2008 14:13:02
288 suchaparceofrogues, that is what i mean Scottish independence and not in the E U.
282

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 14:13:27
290

I said I am not paid to lie and deceive which is perfectly true I wish somebody would pay me to lie and deceive on here any offers?

290

I ran through the half dozen people whose comments the SNP use to bolster their argument, and demonstrated that in some cases their views don't actually align with the SNP

But they do. clearly.

I posted half a dozen views which, in addition to Lord Kerr's run counter to the SNP's

And none of them are impartial views but party political axe to grind views.

Same ol same ol.

283

GM,

27/09/2008 14:13:27
@284

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/europe/or-07/eu07-0902.htm

Read from the midpoint of col231 down.



Like I've said all along, I believe the only evidence that really matters is that within government where the process will take shape.

I don't tend to see the input from a few pro-union nobodies, who will have nothing to do with the process as having much of an effect really.

To use an analogy, I'd trust my own lawyers advice rather than be swayed by shouts from the periphery by unqualified folks with an obvious agenda.
284

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 14:16:51
"That should at least be sufficient to demonstrate that when the SNP says, matter of fact, that "Scotland and the remaining parts of the UK would be automatic members of the EU", they're not being straight with us about the actual complexity of the issue."

But many impartial legal experts outside of the SNP agree there is a legal case for Scotland to be automatically kept within the EU.
And the only sourses you can produce to counter this are not impartial.
And until you can get around this impartial non impartial sh*t then your claim is phuqed.
285

GM,

27/09/2008 14:19:29
@290

och AM2,

you've actually reminded *us* all today why you stopped posting here...
when you get it wrong, you are never strong enough to simply let go and admit it!

Feel free to grab as much as you can from this thread today and post it in your wee 'controlled environment' at your blog... I'm sure it will be fascinating for the pro-union lot to see another clutch of abuse and argument (only from pro SNP contributors mind, never pro-union) taken out of context and ignoring the fact completely that you were more than a bit misguided with your own contribution.
286

JG,

Fife 27/09/2008 14:20:20
#293 GM

"I don't tend to see the input from a few pro-union nobodies, who will have nothing to do with the process as having much of an effect really"

I would find it very scary if someone was going to undertake something - anything - without listening to all of the pros and cons first. Heaven preserve us from people who think they're always right!
287

Mcsnagpile,

27/09/2008 14:23:34
Gee honey Scotland is goin fur independence. Where's Scotland sugar---ah think it is somewhere in Alabama.
288

brusque,

27/09/2008 14:23:42
Is that the same Americans whose constitution is based on the Declaration of Independence??

"""We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government"", and to provide new Guards for their future security.


I particularly like that last paragraph :-)
289

GM,

27/09/2008 14:23:46
parcel,

AM2 does lie occassionally, and *always* decieves,

but he does it for free. I think you took it a bit far suggesting he gets paid to do it.



I await the red hand of AM2 as he has announced his departure, which is usually followed up by a bout of 'moderation' of the thread.

BTW, you do know that AM2 pulled his entire posting history from this site just as he set up his blog...
If I wore a timfoil hat I sould suggest it had something to do with covering his tracks before setting out to trawl the net for choice quotes.
290

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 27/09/2008 14:24:02
Some folk say to me, independence is a good idea, but why then give up soverignty to Europe ?. The original idea for a European common market was good as it reduced the chance of any further wars in Europe. We have nothing to fear of war within Britain after Scottish independence, so there is a case for debate if we need to be a part of the E.U.
291

GM,

27/09/2008 14:28:03
@293

This isn't about pros and cons. That is an entirely different debate. This is simply about can and cannot.

Would it surprise you to hear that I am a little uncomfortable myself with an independent scotland joining the EU?

But, this debate today, is about some Lord trying to suggest (yet again) that -

"Scotland Cant"
"Scotland is barred from"
"Scotland could never"

etc etc etc

its not about pros and cons, just the cans and cannots at this stage.


I look forward to the debate about scotland membership of the EU as I am sure it will be colourful. All the pros and cons can then be brought to the fore.
292

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 14:31:02
299

AM2 does lie occassionally, and *always* decieves,

but he does it for free. I think you took it a bit far suggesting he gets paid to do it.

I never claimed he did I only said I didnt.
293

GM,

27/09/2008 14:32:40
@AM2


If you firmly believe your blog to be balanced, how about rather than picking up a few choice quotes from Lord Kerr,

you also include my post at 108?

no?

didn't think so.
'Balance' isn't something your blog is interested in.

and thats why you fail.
294

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 14:32:57
290

When did you stop posting here? I havent noticed your absence.
295

brusque,

27/09/2008 14:33:08
"""""That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"""""

Those Americans certainly knew how to write a declaration of Independence! For themselves, at any rate.
296

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 14:34:30
AM2

So why did an Irish unionist start up a blog called Scottish unionist?
297

GM,

27/09/2008 14:35:35
@302
hehehehehe

still might merit the old red hand of AM2 though!

I see he has scurried back to his blog where he can safely post more anti SNP propaganda (have you noticed his blog isnt about the benefits of the union, just the negative aspects of nationalism?) without fear of open and real debate, or anything even remotely near to a semblance of balance.
298

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 27/09/2008 14:35:51
301 GM i agree the story is about Lord Kerr,s views about cant do,s. A typical Scotsman unionist dramatization scare story. his talk of the US see a united britain as a strong ally sounds like the UK is a US sattelite
299

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 14:38:21
272

Mostly in European legal documentation and archives I would imagine best place for it really.
300

Weegiewarbler,

Docked 27/09/2008 14:39:27
Media 1 - Unionists et al.

Answer please - if it is UNION and not DOMINION (dominion gets folks really upset btw - and media 1 - please drop the SA bit - in a previous post you let slip your not from there - unless that was a freudian typo?), then why do the individual nations of Scotland Wales and NI COMBINED have less than about 20% of the say (parliamentarians) than England.
1 nation = 1 vote = union
1 nation = 1/10th of a vote = dominion.

Scots don't hate the English by and large (and those that do are certainly free to do so, just not act on it).
Scots DO dislike the dominion (often referred to as union) -

Scots wish change - Either to a TRUE union, or to Independence.

As the union has seemed incredibly reluctant to change - there seems only one path remaining.
301

GM,

27/09/2008 14:40:15
@304

he resigned from the forums a while back and gave something of an 'emotional' speech to announce it all to us!

(bizarre doesn't come close to describing such a course of action, but big egos require big acts)


He had The Scotsman delete his entire posting history, basically to hide his own faux pas, racism, toryism, lies, obfuscations, predictions (hahahahahaha) and many more 'negative' posts that could well have been drudged up.

He then set up his own blog which in a nutshell, takes snippets from around the web which AM2 can then cut, adapt, past, misrepresent, and post all under his own control.

He is as rabid a unionist as anyone has ever witnessed and definately in the realms of 'The union at *any* cost'...

He is as extreme as those he takes issue with.
302

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 14:42:52
307

I havent actually gone into any of its contents only the first web page that was enough if I need to read any unionist p*sh I could always buy a newspaper.
I doubt there is anything original on the blog it will just be regurgetated New Labour spin from London.
Best to read the contents at sourse on the New Labour website.
303

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 14:43:59
311

Yet he never left the blogs only used other accounts.
304

brusque,

27/09/2008 14:48:46
There is something so inherently sad about people having reinvent themselves on message boards under different names, just so they can satisfy a deep yearning for recognition of their own worth!

They will soon be referring to it as "Doing a Gordon Brown"
305

GM,

27/09/2008 14:53:26
@314

the only thing sadder is those who do it, not to simply reinvent themselves, but in order to agree with their own contribution under a different moniker!

So far, only proven to be the domain of the rabid unionist contributors... Highland Mighty/British Pride etc.

I can still recall Highland Mighty catching himself out when he forgot wich account he was posting from!! what a laugh.

He disappeared for a while after that but would you believe had the nuts to come back without explanation or apology and has actually accused others of using multiple accounts!!!

306

bill-alba,

fife 27/09/2008 15:06:45
The EU wouldnt dare ask Scotland to renogiate membership as Scotland might say forget it.
For all the britnats (media etc) you say again that scotland ni wales and england gain more from being together and then don't give one example of why that is the case..please continue to type drivel as it only drives more people into the indepenence camp, the ever impressive SNP show time and time again why we should be independent.
307

Grahamski,

Falkirk 27/09/2008 15:08:41
311-315
Check out the nats reverting to type: the village gossips whispering poison about their neighbours, 'they're different, not like us'. Heaven help us if ever they get any real power, the rise of the tartan taleban is a cautionary tale for us all...
308

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 15:12:05
316

That is actually a fair point the EU wants to expand it wants to become an economic power house to rival the Far East and the United States it doesnt want to weaken its global position in any way.
In fact it will gobble up every nation around it eventually. It is something that has to be monitored and watched carefully so it doesnt become bigger than its constituent parts.
As long as individual countries like Ireland can halt the juggernaut then it is still in control. When that ceases to be then it may be time to pull out.
309

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 15:12:51
317

Have you actually contributed anything worth while today?
310

Grahamski,

Falkirk 27/09/2008 15:13:55
319
Straight back at ya, freaky deaky mentallist
311

GM,

27/09/2008 15:22:55
@317

Ah grahamski...

not a single positive contribution to the debate on this thread. Not one.

Only your usual petty, negative and snide asides about 'Natz', 'Taleban' etc.

It must pain you more than most I suppose, given not only Labour's lost position in scotland, but that the university politics left wing brigade have actually been wiped out completely. Playground socialism/communism has no place in the lives of real people these days.

I am actually a little puzzled by your post at 317 - basically it appears to be nothing more than nonsensical rubbish.

Have you a view on Lord Kerr's comments at all?
312

vimto,

27/09/2008 15:25:11
243. Good afternoon brownlie. I'm sorry but everytime salmond opens his mouth he is attacking something English or of English origin,he may not mean to do so(although most people in England thinks he does it to get a reaction)but he comes across as a anti English racist.
313

JG,

Fife 27/09/2008 15:27:46
#322 vimto

"but he comes across as a (smug) anti English racist."
314

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 15:29:40
320

A simple no would have sufficed. So why do you even bother comming on here then? havent you got a family to beat up?
315

First Minister,

Markinch 27/09/2008 15:31:09
317 Check out the unionist reverting to abuse again, you really really need to get a life dude, have you ever left Larkhall?
Falkirk? Aye right!
Have you ever travelled anywhere? Cos if you had you ould realise that Scotland is not getting a fair deal. Have you ever tried to get a train from Edinburgh, the Capital of Scotland to Fort William, a grand distance of 135 miles, or Aberdden to Stanraer?
Please dont revert to abuse again, it is so childish, what about the state of our Motorway system?
316

Grahamski,

Falkirk 27/09/2008 15:31:15
321
Lord Kerr's comments are in line with the views of most grown-ups in that the markets tend not to like change and they certainly shun uncertainty. It is hardly earth-shattering, he merely states what I would consider the blindingly obvious: given the choice most states/markets would choose the staus quo.
Cue the nationalist cyberhacks flinging their usual boring redundant and ultimately racist insults. The infantile disorder which is nationalism has a very limited shelf-life. Even now it is beginning to putrify and collapse within it's inherent contradictions: an inherently right-wing ideology being welded with an ersatz leftism. It was always going to end in tears, better get your kleenex at the ready.
317

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 15:31:29
322

Of English origin? I thought he only ever attacked British policy? are you having problems distinguishing between the two as well?
318

vimto,

27/09/2008 15:31:46
Not only that,salmond is a disaster waiting to happen for the scottish people,his arrogent,bilious,attitude to anyone who disagrees with him or the snp is totally obnoxious.
319

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 15:36:44
326

But the world changes everyday so do the markets nothing stands still.
The markets must be run by a basket case of neurotic ashen faced trembling feardies scared of the day they never saw if what you say is true.
If the markets werent uncertain the world would be populated with billionairs.

Yes a well thought out and meaningful post got anymore?
320

vimto,

27/09/2008 15:38:32
327. NO, Westminster is in England is it not! salmond has a bee in his bonnet,and if he isn't very careful he is going to get stung very badly.
321

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 15:39:57
328

So when did the Aliens return you to Earth?
322

GM,

27/09/2008 15:40:24
@322

no,
Salmond has attacked on many occassions westminster or things of westmister origin.

Surely you can see the difference between 'westminster' and 'England'?

I ask the question seriously, although some unionists deliberatley equate the two to further the lie that to be scottish nationalist is to be racist.
323

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 15:41:16
330

Are you referring to the British Parliament Westminster or the London burgh?
324

vimto,

27/09/2008 15:41:51
331. Go to hell!
325

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta CA: for more WAR VOTE McCain 27/09/2008 15:43:38
Diplomat warns of US 'horror' over Scottish independence:

Oh My Dog, it doesn't take much rhetoric, to set U RFP SNP supporters off on a tangent to Dreamland.

Independence for Scotland in the 21st century is a pipe dream at best, and a wannabe disaster for the Scottish people at worst.

GC



RFP = Rabid Fanatical Polarized.
326

GM,

27/09/2008 15:44:00
Oh god,

I do apologise everyone.

I never realised 'Vimto' was 'Kimba' using yet another moniker. I would never have responded otherwise.

Suxhaparcelofrogues.... don't waste your time on this mentally ill old lady.
327

vimto,

27/09/2008 15:44:28
333. AH! It's the BRITISH PARLIAMENT NOW, the other day you natz discribed it as the "English parliament"make your mind up!
328

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 15:46:31
334

Oh sorry you havent been returned yet must be a touchy subject. Keeps those cheeks clenched
329

vimto,

27/09/2008 15:46:44
336. I am not "kimba" she is my daughter,and if you think someone in their fifties are old,you are a bigger cretin than i thought.
330

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 15:47:17
337

Really? which natz were those then? the ones in this universe or the ones in yours?
331

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 15:48:18
336

ach I want tae play a wee while.
332

vimto,

27/09/2008 15:51:15
338. MUST BE GETTING MY POINT ACROSS,only someone scared out of their pants attacks as much as you do,tell you what matey,take the stick out of your a==e and try and be civil.
333

vimto,

27/09/2008 15:53:11
341. you want to play,go play on the M8.
334

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 15:53:16
342

Getting yer point across? havent you even bothered to remove the probe yet?
335

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 15:53:46
343

Dont be daft its full of traffic.
336

vimto,

27/09/2008 15:55:28
345. EXACTLY.
337

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 15:56:43
346

Och it wis a pun I thought ye were serious.
Did they aliens appreciate yer humour?
338

vimto,

27/09/2008 15:57:59
The natz can say or do what they like,it seems the international community don't want to deal with a independent scotland.
339

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 15:59:23
348

Probably because theyre having difficulty finding it.
340

vimto,

27/09/2008 16:00:55
349. Tell them to follow the hot air coming from salmonds a==e.
341

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 16:01:59
349

I think you just did.
342

vimto,

27/09/2008 16:03:29
Any news on the Glenrothes by-election!
343

Grahamski,

Falkirk 27/09/2008 16:03:44
322
The SNP's thinly-veiled anti-English bigotry is one of their more nauseating traits.
344

vimto,

27/09/2008 16:06:05
353. But why,what the hell have we done!
345

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 16:06:53
352

New Labour have told the returning officer to keep their deposit in advance they dont expect to be getting it back. Miss Whiplash has offered an alliance in order to double their votes.
346

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 16:08:17
353

Is this judgement derived from you own personal experiance of nauseating traits?
347

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 27/09/2008 16:08:17
13 2dogs in D.C.

Good morning to you, sir, and your lovely dogs.

Quite a contentious subject as evidenced by the postings which have reached 348 as I post.

It is impossible to read through all of them, separating the wheat from the chaff, and trying to come to an intelligent conclusion on this vexed subject.
348

vimto,

27/09/2008 16:09:21
355/356. LOL!
349

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 16:10:17
358

Better to just laugh at it.
It was never a serious point of issue to start with.
350

Grahamski,

Falkirk 27/09/2008 16:11:35
357
Good one.
Buffoon.
351

JMacL,

Huntington Beach, CA. USA 27/09/2008 16:13:01
Kerr and those like him are the present day equivalent of the Parcel of Rogues or 1707!!!
352

vimto,

27/09/2008 16:13:18
As much as you are a nat.
353

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 16:14:04
362

Sharing more of your personal experiances with us?
354

ThomasP,

27/09/2008 16:15:51
Spain objects to Scotland being in the European Union.

Scotland objects to Spanish ships in Scottish waters.

Its a win-win situation.
355

Grahamski,

Falkirk 27/09/2008 16:20:06
366
This is just getting silly now. How can one political party corner the market and get a monopoly in baying, clueless loons? Goodness knows, but the SNP seem to have managed it.
356

vimto,

27/09/2008 16:21:10
The point is, it will not come to that,the union is good for at least another 20 years,salmond is a "fly by night"politician, when he is refused his own way often enough he will jack it in,he did it once ,he'll do it again.
357

European Scot,

27/09/2008 16:22:22
367 Grahamski

" This is just getting silly now. How can one political party corner the market and get a monopoly in baying, clueless loons? Goodness knows, but the SNP seem to have managed it."

Until you popped up !
358

ThomasP,

27/09/2008 16:24:04
#367

Are you an idiot? Where did I state "...one political party corner the market and get a monopoly in baying..."?

I am only looking at facts. Scotland has territorial waters which would continue to be Scottish, Independence or no Independence. These waters are valuable because of the amount of fish that feel like making these waters their home and other countries feel like fishing in...Of course in the EU this is allowed... but why would Scotland want to allow other countries to fish in her waters when they object to her own EU membership?

Lucky for us Spain actually eat alot of fish so no doubt will worry about the fishing issues.
359

ewan McD,

27/09/2008 16:33:12
so let me get this rite in my mind. officially everyone in scotland (i.e. UK citizens) is also EU citizens.
but if scotland becomes an indipendant state so goes the EU citizenship (one is tied to another).
Call me simple but it seems kinda wrong that the EU can, what?, evict 5.5 million of its own citizens due to a change in government (what they gonna do come and take my passport off me?)
and if we are citizens of the EU (as they like to keep calling us and is whats printed on the front of my passport) then how can they change any of the rules or status of scotland without looking like a bunch a bams (it would be like the UK gov telling me I've lost my citizenship rites because i've devorced my wife).

Like i said maybe i'm looking at this too simply.
360

vimto,

27/09/2008 16:36:41
371. Seems stupid,but guess what,semms the EU don't want Scotland if they are not part of the UK.
361

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 16:37:09
367

Youre only upset because you cannae wind anybody up.
What a sorry sad wee man.
362

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 16:38:12
372

And why is that then?
363

,

27/09/2008 16:41:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
364

Darien,

Panama 27/09/2008 16:42:23
Given the experience of Norway, it is far more likely that the EU will need Scotland rather than the other way about, so this issue is a red herring (a pun, reflecting also Scotland's dominant role in Europe's fisheries industry). Obviously Lord Kerr is worried about his seat in the House of Lords and his own relevance after Scotland becomes independent. In other words, there will be little point in having Scottish peers sitting in an English second chamber; as pointless as having Scottish MP's at Westminster today, voting for the most part on English-only matters. He would be better advised to welcome Scotland's new state as his diplomatic skills might be helpful what with all the challenges and opportunities that will bring. It will need all hands on deck to re-build and re-shape our nation after so many years of neglect and lack of focus or ambition from previous Britain-agenda administrations. Scotland can't afford her British Nationalist (aka unionist) sons and daughters to sit on the outside in the cream puff. All are welcome in the new Scotland, even reformed Quislings.
365

vimto,

27/09/2008 16:44:47
374. Presumably the powers that be,don't think scotland can hack it!
366

ThomasP,

27/09/2008 16:45:25
371 ewan McD

Don't let the idiots scare you dude. It is much simpler for Scotland to change and agree to the European Union etc etc once we are Independent.

or everything would change. Including the business between Scotland and the rest of Britain and well the rest of Europe. It is far to messy, its far easier to hand over a peice of paper for Scotland to sign that will continue the whole EU process instead of halting the brakes and well creating a fuss.
367

vimto,

27/09/2008 16:47:02
As i have already stated in my post @ 368,it ain't going to happen.
368

chico y,

27/09/2008 16:47:07
He added: "Scottish independence would be seen by American politicians as a bad thing but they would be smart enough to say that in private, not in public – they would regard it as none of their business in public". - How does "Lord" Kerr know what American politicians think ?

"But, as for American business, they would also see it as a bad thing; they would regard it as bad news if they were thinking of investing in Scotland." How does he know this as well ?

Biased article by a unionist journalist, why persist in printing this trash. This is based on one guy's personal opinions and he is obviously in cahoots with the Unionist establishment.

Does anyone actually buy the Scotsman anymore ?
369

ThomasP,

27/09/2008 16:48:15
This is all rather amusing. The world appears to be worried about an Independent Scotland. What happened to the Unionists stories that Scotland is to small and will be over powered etc etc

370

European Scot,

27/09/2008 16:50:41
371 ewan McD

You are quite right !
Also, can you imagine the EU not allowing one of the most important countries in Europe in terms of its strategic geographic position, to remain as a member.
To suggest otherwise is obviously insane, or to be more accurate, pure Unionist scare mongering propaganda.
Scotland has zero to worry about remaining a part of the EU post Independence.
371

vimto,

27/09/2008 16:56:21
381. That is precisely why the world is worried,we have to many small countries that can't hack it, we don't need another one.
372

ThomasP,

27/09/2008 16:59:19
#381

Scotland will be apart of the European Union. The European Union is the future, that will soon speak for Europe not only economically, but also militarily around the world.

It's your choice. Live in the past or take a step and join the future. The world ain't going to stop for you or the rest of England.
373

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 17:09:56
377

Hack what?
374

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 17:11:49
379

Its very bold of you pointing out your own posts it shows no fear of shame or embarrasment.
Must be wonderful to be oblivious.
375

ewan McD,

27/09/2008 17:11:57
378

aye tom i agree and to be honest i usually steer well clear of politics but this story just annoyed the hell out of me.

to be honest I work with/ have met a hell of a lotta yanks who think britian is england and scotland is a dif nation anyway (been asked loads of times by americans/canadians etc do we use the pound or the euro in scotland, whats the relationship with the uk.... for example) so I dont think there will be this big shock from US public/business (and to be honest the worries/opinions of the US gov's forign policy (as in the 'war on terror' where the lagitimasy the UK/allied forces bring (i.e. not just the US acting alone) is not rite at the top of my list of concerns to the future of scotland)

If anythinf the only thing this artical has done is made me lean more in the direction of wanting a republic if scotland was to become indipendant, would this artical have been put up so quick if it was you or I calling in?

oh and sorry for all the (()))) lol i'm not a very good public speaker.
376

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 17:18:29
383

Do you know where the US is going to get the 700 billion it needs to bail out the NYSE?
Awe they wee Muslim countries wie oil and gas and loads and loads o cash to spend.
Now they will be able to buy another 700 billion dollars worth o US real estate.
377

brownlie,

27/09/2008 17:24:59
377 Vimto

Who be the "powers that be" and where be they???
378

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 17:29:23
You know its Ironic that idiot lord Kerr thinks the US inward investment will stop with Scottish Independence when it is they who are going to have to go cap in hand to small oil rich nations for a loan of 700 billion dollars to bail oot their financial institutes.
Could this moron no have timed his bullsh*t any better to look a right a*se.
379

brownlie,

27/09/2008 17:41:35
387 Ewan

Don't be so modest, Ewan, that was an excellent posting!
380

Darien,

Panama 27/09/2008 17:59:39
#387 Ewan: Have to agree there, stateside most folks think Britain is England and successive UK governments have done zip to dispel that error. In fact, many folks internationally, even in the EU, tend to also refer to Britain as England - I know this because I work with people from a wide range of countries. Even during the China Olympics the Chinese translation for GB was England. On the Olso stock exchange they refer to the 'English pound'. Gordon Brown's speech was illustrative of the cringe amongst Scots British nationalists: he mentioned Britain over 20 times and Scotland only once (as if ashamed, perhaps?). To say that Scotland needs a global marketing strategy and build a profile would be an understatement, especially after 300 years of suppressed/hidden national identity. Scotland needs to tell the modern world that it exists (again) and that can only happen with independence.
381

,

27/09/2008 18:08:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
382

Western Gael,

27/09/2008 18:27:09
Most likely, His Lordship, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, would be greatly displeased to learn that few of those in the former Colonies could properly locate Scotland on a map, much less agonize over whether Scotland might disavow the Act of Union. Further, their contempt for the EU makes it unlikely that they would worry a whit over whether Scotland might run into a bad patch trying to join that club of snooty chaps in striped pants. In fact, most Americans’ views of Scotland come directly from Robert Burns’s (blessed be his name) poetry, or picture post cards of the tatty shops on the Royal Mile
383

Fairfax,

27/09/2008 18:43:08
Lara Crofter (394): "I'd love to see the EU's excuses for not allowing Scotland automatic entry. It would be fun. If the unionogs are right, then I'm looking forward to that one."

I don't understand why automatic membership of the EU is important to Scots -- membership of the EEA would be useful, but otherwise Norway seems to be the model to follow. However, to reply to your point, there is at least one interesting EU precedent: when Algeria became independent from France, following the Franco--Algerian war, it did not automatically become a member of the EEC, despite being part of France, in legal terms, before independence. This would seem to imply that membership is not necessarily automatically inherited.
384

European Scot,

27/09/2008 18:50:54
393 Vote UKIP

" The only way to solve ths probem is to vote UKIP. When this happens the UK can finally withdraw from the EU."

Ah yes, let's get away from the Euro, which remains relatively stable, and against which the pound has dropped considerably.
Last year around 70 pence would buy one Euro, now it will cost closer to 80 pence.
Vote for your lot, and let's forget all about Independence, sounds like top drawer logic ..... but only to a UKIP supporter.
Meanwhile back in the real World.
Presumably your mass of supporters will both be out canvassing at Glenrothes ?!
385

Hamish Scott,

27/09/2008 18:53:52
Another day, another fabricated news story and no report of the meeting of the British-Irish Council in Edinburgh yesterday - which the Scotsman failed to mention in yesterday's Scotsman. Fabrication, suppression and more generally distortion of news reporting - the Scotsman is an international embarassment.
386

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 18:55:51
397

"Presumably your mass of supporters will both be out canvassing at Glenrothes ?!"

They are teaming up with lord Sutch's supporters in order to look like a crowd.
387

Hamish Scott,

27/09/2008 18:56:25
#396
Algeria was an integral part of Metropolitan France, it was not a separate, constituent part of a multinational state created by international treaty.
388

Hamish Scott,

27/09/2008 18:59:27
#401
Should also add that Algeria isn't in Europe!
389

brownlie,

27/09/2008 19:01:26
396 Fairfax

My geography is fairly limited but is Algeria not in Africa rather than in Europe?
390

vimto,

27/09/2008 19:02:16
386. Bold,no,annoyed at my country being divided by a pack of eejits,yes.
391

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 27/09/2008 19:02:31
396

Oh we havent seen this arguement before either at least not more than 6 times.

France and Algeria where never in a Union of Kingdoms so I fail to see where the precedence sets itself.
Wasnt Algeria a French colony which had to fight for its Independence? Didnt it then withdraw by its own violation from the EU?


From wiki:

Starting from the end of the nineteenth century, people of European descent in Algeria (or natives like Spanish people in Oran), as well as the native Algerian Jews (typically Sephardic in origin), became full French citizens. After Algeria's 1962 independence, they were called Pieds-Noirs; ("Pieds Noirs" meaning "black feet", referring to the black shoes the Europeans wore on their feet). In contrast, the vast majority of Muslim Algerians (even veterans of the French army) received neither French citizenship nor the right to vote.

So no the vast majority of Algerians never had European status.
No precedence there either.
392

Fairfax,

27/09/2008 19:05:04
Hamish Scot (401): "Algeria was an integral part of Metropolitan France, it was not a separate, constituent part of a multinational state created by international treaty."

The Treaty (and the Act) of Union declare that England and Scotland become one kingdom, with the same monarchy and succession, and equal trade and economic rights. In that sense, it is not clear to me that Scotland would be viewed a separate part of a multinational state. Still, we'll have to wait and see -- perhaps the precedent taken would be that of Greenland instead. I still find it bemusing that Scotland should consider EU membership to be so important, particularly given the SNP's history of strongly opposing the EEC in earlier years. After all, since the EU's expansion, there would now be little financial advantage from EU grants.
393

brownlie,

27/09/2008 19:08:51
404 vimto

Worry not, vimto, David Cameron will heal all divisions.
394

Hamish Scott,

27/09/2008 19:10:54
#406
Fairfax - I agree that the EU issue is presented a bit oddly as many Scots might prefer the idea of being out of the EU! Indeed, when it comes to EU membership I think it will be a lot harder to get out than to stay in. If I remember correctly Greenland's problem was in getting out.
395

Fairfax,

27/09/2008 19:13:25
Suchap (406): "Wasnt Algeria a French colony which had to fight for its Independence?"

It was a colony, and its war was extraordinarily bloody. However, French colonies were legally unified with France -- there was no distinction between, say, parts of Algeria and parts of France. Interestingly, France still maintains this legal construction for its remaining colonies -- they are "departments d'outre mer".

"Didnt it then withdraw by its own violation from the EU?"

It was the EEC in those days, but no withdrawal occurred, to my knowledge. The view was that France was the EU member, and that Algeria had seceded from France. Possibly other EU nations might take that view now concerning Scotland -- after all, "England" is synonymous with "Britain" in most European languages -- in which case Scotland would be viewed as a secession state. Still, I cannot see why Scotland would wish to remain a member of the EU in any case.

Do you believe that Scotland would also become a member of other organizations automatically? For example, would Scotland automatically become a NATO member?