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Brown leaves the future of Union in Wendy's hands



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Published Date: 07 May 2008
GORDON Brown, the Prime Minister, has turned his back on what could be the biggest constitutional upheaval for 300 years by saying a vote on the break-up of the United Kingdom is a matter for the Labour leader in Scotland.
Despite being an implacable unionist for his entire political career and against an independence referendum, Mr Brown said yesterday that he would leave the issue of a vote on separation to Wendy Alexander.

In doing so, he has also effectively ceded responsibility for the constitutional future of Scotland to Holyrood, even though it is a reserved matter for Westminster. The SNP has hailed this as a major breakthrough.

The change in position to support a referendum on independence by Labour and Ms Alexander means there is, for the first time, a majority in the Scottish Parliament in favour of a vote on the future of the Union.

Ms Alexander could even table her own referendum bill, calling for a public vote on independence.

As the leader of the UK party, Mr Brown could have slapped down Ms Alexander – described as "erratic" by her political opponents – and blocked the possibility of a high-risk vote.

But when asked about it, his spokesman said: "The position taken by the Labour Party leader (in Scotland] is a matter for her. Clearly, there is a debate taking place in the Scottish Parliament on the timing of any potential referendum on Scottish independence.

"The Prime Minister has always been comfortable with the strength of the argument in favour of the Union and believes that a referendum questioning the Union would be defeated."

He added that Mr Brown was confident independence would be rejected "whenever a vote happened".

The move has caused astonishment among Labour's political opponents, not least because Mr Brown has made so much of promoting Britishness and, in the event of independence, would see his Westminster seat disappear.

Nicol Stephen, the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, said: "Mr Brown appears to have washed his hands of this issue, which is astonishing considering he is a Scottish MP and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom."

A spokesman for the Scottish Conservatives said: "Can we really be surprised that Gordon Brown is dithering? He doesn't do decisiveness."

At a news conference yesterday, Ms Alexander insisted Mr Brown was backing her by saying it was a matter for Scottish Labour. She rejected suggestions he was washing his hands of her.

She also denied she had been "bounced" into supporting a referendum by Mr Brown, or that he was being "bounced" by her. "We had close discussions over a long period," she insisted.

Ms Alexander said she had come to her decision to back a referendum because the issue had been "hanging around for 30 years", and she demanded the SNP bring its bill forward soon.

"You can't propose the break-up of the United Kingdom, then run scared of the issue for three years," she said. "It's time for them to put up or shut up."

Ms Alexander confirmed that Labour bringing forward its own referendum bill was "an option". A spokesman added that she would like to see a referendum held next year.

The SNP said it was "delighted" with Ms Alexander's U-turn.

A spokesman said: "The proof that Wendy Alexander's U-turn was an unorganised and freelance operation is confirmed by Downing Street's failure to endorse her comments.

"The political gain in this Labour Party fiasco is all for the SNP. The Downing Street statement implicitly concedes a referendum on independence is a matter for the Scottish Parliament to organise – a significant step forward. The Scottish Government welcomes that and welcomes that the entire Scottish constitutional debate is following the SNP's agenda."

Publicly, Labour MSPs supported Ms Alexander's line at a meeting of the parliamentary party yesterday. However, The Scotsman has learned there was some disquiet about the sudden decision to back a referendum.

Duncan McNeil, chairman of the Labour group at Holyrood, said: "No-one had any complaints about the decision, and we are now in a position where, as a group, we will not vote down any referendum bill that comes into the parliament."

He added: "This has actually come as quite a relief for some members."

But George Foulkes, a Labour Lothians MSP, warned: "There is an argument to have a referendum quickly to shoot Salmond's fox, but I think we need to be very careful about this."

Another senior Labour MSP was furious the change of heart had been rushed through without proper consultation. "We should have been arriving at a decision on a referendum after discussion and debate within the party," he said.

A third said nobody had seen the U-turn coming, adding: "This is a hugely high-risk strategy that could play right into Salmond's hands."

Earlier, former Labour first minister Henry McLeish warned Ms Alexander she was playing a dangerous game that could end in independence, or the case for independence being strengthened.

He said: "If the name of the game is to try and shoot the fox by having an early referendum, the danger is it could backfire and we have a result which does not suit the unionist parties but will suit the SNP – because it will be the first recorded, proper vote on independence, which will only make their enthusiasm that much greater."

Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Tory leader, denounced Ms Alexander for betraying Scotland and described the U-turn as a reckless gamble.

She said. "I am a staunch supporter of devolution and refuse to play fast and loose with our future. Wendy Alexander is dancing to Alex Salmond's jig and pandering to the agenda of the SNP."

Miss Goldie also warned a referendum could come down to personalities rather than principle, with the SNP making the campaign "Alex Salmond versus Gordon Brown or Wendy Alexander".

David Cameron, the UK Tory leader, said he was not in favour of a referendum and did not relish the prospect of being prime minister of only England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

WHAT NOW FOR CALMAN COMMISSION ON DEVOLUTION?

WENDY Alexander's call for a referendum on independence has raised questions about the purpose of the Calman commission, the panel of experts asked to map out Scotland's political future.

The commission is not due to report within a year – by which time a referendum could have been held. The biggest irony of all is that the commission has been specifically told not to look at independence as an option.

Its chairman, Sir Kenneth Calman, said it was "business as usual" but other members have questioned its role.

Iain McMillan, director of CBI Scotland, said: "The only thing Wendy Alexander and the SNP seem to agree on now is that there should be a referendum, but not the timescale or what questions it should pose.

"The CBI as an organisation resolved to leave the issue of whether there should be an independence referendum to the Scottish Parliament to decide. That is the right position."

John Loughton, who chairs the Scottish Youth Parliament, said: "I think we have to be very careful that any decisions on the staging of a referendum are taken in the best interests of Scotland. I would urge people to remember that during the ongoing debate."

Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP deputy First Minister, said Ms Alexander's comments "blew the gaffe" on the commission being a totally empty exercise.

Ms Sturgeon said: "Wendy has pre-judged the commission as a mere exercise in tinkering.

"Wendy's position is farcical – the commission may as well wind up its business now. Labour are clearly indicating that it will produce nothing substantive."

She added: "The opposition parties are in meltdown on the constitution."

More than half of Labour voters want premier to stand down, claims poll

ROSS LYDALL
POLITICAL EDITOR


GORDON Brown is under yet more pressure after a poll revealed a majority of Labour supporters feel the party would be better off if he stood down.

In the latest setback to the Prime Minister, they believe Labour has a better chance of winning the next general election if he makes way for a younger leader.

News of the poll came after Charles Clarke, the former home secretary, said that voters had the "right to expect better" of Labour, while the Tory leader, David Cameron, said he would make Mr Brown's U-turn over 10p tax the central issue of the Crewe and Nantwich by-election. It will be held on 22 May following the death of Labour MP Gwyneth Dunwoody. She had a majority in excess of 7,000, but the Tories believe a victory is possible.

The Populus poll showed that support for Labour had plunged four points to 29 per cent in the past month. The Tories were up to 40 per cent, giving David Cameron the biggest Tory lead in the five years of the Populus series of polls.

The Liberal Democrats were up two points on 19 per cent.

But it is the poll's findings on the party leaders that will alarm No10 more, with Mr Brown's leadership rating on the slide among all voters and running behind those of Mr Cameron and Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg.

Some 55 per cent of Labour voters say the party would be more likely to beat the Tories at the next election if Mr Brown resigned "to make way for a younger, fresher, more charismatic alternative".

The number of people trusting Mr Brown and the Chancellor, Alistair Darling, most to deal with the economic turmoil has slumped from 43 per cent in mid-March to just 30 per cent.

Meanwhile, Mr Cameron said: "Our message will focus on the 10p tax rate, and how Gordon Brown is hurting the people of Crewe with tax increases just as their cost of living is going up.

"People in Crewe know that the more of them who vote Conservative, the clearer the message will be to Gordon Brown to do more to help."

He added: "People in Crewe should ask themselves if Labour win, whether Gordon Brown will breathe a sigh of relief and think, 'I've got away with it' and tell (Labour rebel] Frank Field and anybody else to get lost."

Meanwhile, writing in Prospect magazine, Mr Clarke, an arch Blairite, said that "good leadership matters" and suggested a mini-Budget was the best way for the government to reverse its unpopularity.

Mr Brown is known to be drawing together a series of new policies on housing, health, education and the constitution to be unveiled next week.

Mr Clarke called for an end to the "black arts" of Labour spin-doctors briefing against people in their own party, and a ditching of "dog whistle" policies, such as "British jobs for British workers" – a phrase controversially used by Mr Brown.

He also called for the axeing of plans to increase the period terrorist suspects can be held without charge from 28 to 42 days.

Mr Clarke's intervention came as Mr Field held talks with Mr Darling to demand greater clarity on the government's proposed compensation package for those losing out under tax changes.

A Treasury source said Mr Darling had given a "categoric assurance that he is intending to help as many people as possible, that he is looking at all the options and that he wants to get it right".

Mr Field has yet to decide whether to retable a rebel amendment to the Finance Bill, which he withdrew last month.

Salmond likes a flutter – and he could unseat PM

ANALYSIS

THEY were only three small words – "bring it on" – but they could have enormous repercussions for Gordon Brown and the future of Scotland and the United Kingdom.

When Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, issued her referendum challenge to Alex Salmond on Sunday, she performed one of the most significant U-turns in Scottish political history, which could ultimately end with the break-up of the UK.

But with so much at stake, why is the Prime Minister allowing Ms Alexander to continue with brinkmanship that could lead to an outcome he abhors? And why has he apparently put his and Scotland's fate in the hands of a leader whose poll ratings are rock bottom? Indeed, many are even confused as to whether Wendy Alexander even intended to make the announcement.

The question marks over Ms Alexander's ability to lead in Holyrood and the recent donation scandal have shown her hands may not be the safest.

Many believe the policy change looks like a panic measure on the back of appalling local election results in England, and an attempt by Ms Alexander to neuter the SNP before a 2010 general election, and reduce losses to the Nationalists.

But it also gives the impression Mr Brown has lost authority and his acolytes are now trying to fill the vacuum he has left in an effort to fight political opponents north and south of the Border who are circling in for the kill.

It was a hugely disorganised change of direction, with Ms Alexander apparently speaking to almost nobody, least of all her fellow Labour MSPs, before announcing she was backing a referendum.

Unionist colleagues in the Conservative and Liberal Democrat ranks are surprised and bewildered. Ms Alexander has broken faith with them after they agreed the Calman Commission on devolution would be the best way to map out new powers for Scotland.

But, as much as it appears that Scottish Labour and Ms Alexander are making up the new policy on the hoof, this has changed the political landscape of Scotland.

We now have the two biggest parties in Holyrood supporting a referendum on independence. This means a vote on separation will happen unless Labour once again turns full circle – something the events of the last few days shows you cannot rule out.

The gamble is that this will kill off Mr Salmond and the SNP for a generation. But what a gamble.

And if the famous gambler Alex Salmond wins, Mr Brown will find himself without a job by default and the UK will be finished.

The full article contains 2358 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Angus Ogg,

07/05/2008 00:00:08

McAvities Cat
Has Dumped Wendy Like That
The Harpie Has Moaned
And Is Out On Her Own


Any bets on who is sacked first? Bendy or Brown ?
2

,

07/05/2008 00:08:32
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3

Moshie Al-Harrods,

07/05/2008 00:12:17
Sandy wants to watch out for Phil-the-Greek's henchmen!
4

Wisnaeme,

wisnaethere 07/05/2008 00:13:39

Hmmm. Reminds of how 'Nero' fiddled whilst Rome burned.

.
5

Truely English,

07/05/2008 00:13:41
It is extremely important that we save the Union for the good of the people of Scotland. Just look at what happened to Africa once we left.

Their education systems failed through lack of money and the Civilising effects of the English language and culture were often not taken into account.
6

,

07/05/2008 00:14:36
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7

,

07/05/2008 00:15:10
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8

Tris,

07/05/2008 00:15:18


Am I dreaming all this or is it really happening?

It's more like a panto than the average panto.

Amateur or what?
9

,

07/05/2008 00:18:35
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10

Colkitto,

River Clyde 07/05/2008 00:19:19
Going by Labour comments, a referendum is now inevitable. It's only the timing of it to get agreed.
11

Cpt Incredible,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:19:29
Whenever it happens, a vote for Independance should be a must for anyone with Scotlands interests at heart.
12

beckypumps1,

Fife 07/05/2008 00:20:04
5
England will be fine when we hand control back, I cant see England turning into a ruleless African type state.
13

Cpt Incredible,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:27:23
Alex Salmond said on TV tonight that he beleives England are capable of Governing themselves. I'm not so sure, as they rely heavily on our subsidies.
14

Wisnaeme,

07/05/2008 00:29:05
Post 3.

Aye, right enough. The honoury President will be having a 'debate' with the SPEC of Embra Toon over this affront to their dignity, no doubt. The lights will be on into the wee small hours in the big hoose in Charlotte Square over this.

...and ah'm nae referring tae Bute Hoose either.

.
.
15

South Gyle Prisoner,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:29:40
Hang on a minute I've sussed her game, its a cunning ploy... if we vote for independence we get Gordon Brown back!
16

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 07/05/2008 00:30:15
I do hope that the 'news' we've been hearing about Wendy doing this because Gordon is now weak, is for once correct, because if it is, there is no way the majority of Labour MP's in England and Wales will stand for it, on a matter of what to them is principle.

The principle being that in no way can their members in Scotland be seen to take charge of their own affairs.

A, Because they can't be trusted to do anything right, (which is true).

and

B, The tail cannot be seen to wag the dog, especially when it might effect them as well.

and

C, Things just aren't done like that, are they!

Stand by for civil war in the Labour party.
17

Peter,

The Union is Dead 07/05/2008 00:33:14
On Tuesday the 5th's thread on this story I pointed out that Wendy had isolated herself from any support from the Conservatives or Libdems. What do we read in this column Annabelle lambasting Wendy and Nicol not sounding that chuffed either. The Libdems and Conservatives will now do all they can to stall any referendum bill leaving Wendy and Labour in Scotland in the embarrassing position of having to vote with the SNP since they are now pro referendum!

Wee Eck will turn a deaf ear to this shrill wee harpy until he is ready to set the date for the referendum and the country will not thank her for her efforts to rush through the bill.

Brown has done a Pontius Pilate on her and Foulksesake is trying valiantly to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Calman is dead in the water before it even starts and Wendy has all the political power and effectiveness of a chocolate teaspoon.

Now she has to do all this messing around before the Police Complaints Commission reports on Strathclyde Police's blind eye to Wendy's law breaking and corrupt practices.

Please can a Labour supporter tell me why this is such a clever plan of Wendy's? It makes her clever plan over the SNP Budget Vote in February look like a work of genius.
18

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:35:04
The Ranks are split

English labour 0

Labour 1
19

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 07/05/2008 00:35:04
What leadership from Bean.

One of his minions makes a decision and he immediatley turfs her out on her ear.

It may be the inevitable, it may be what the Scottish people really want, but Bean can not condone it.

What happened to "Listening to what the people want" Bean ?
20

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:38:26
Labour vote in Scotland ?


Ha haaa hah h haah ahhaaahah hhahhahah hahhaahah
21

,

07/05/2008 00:42:10
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22

Vivas,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:42:30
As a believer in independence myself, I suppose it's possible that Wendy's bluff/ploy could achieve her desired result. But it's very hard to imagine exactly *how*.

It's like one of these open-air mazes you get with the big high hedges on all sides ...and Wendy is going to have to take all the correct twists and turns in one go. No turning back, no dead-ends. She'll require more luck than judgement to pull this one off.
23

Vivas,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:45:48
#17 Peter ...did you hear her Newsnight comment tonight ? That SLAB could not sit on it's hands on this issue ?

Yet we only have to go back 2 months to when they all sat on their own hands in the Scottish budget at Holyrood ... and couldn't even support their own ammendment in the final vote.

Turkeys voting for Xmas :-))
24

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:48:29
5 I have had more civil conduct with Senegslese, Gambians Namibians,Ugandans and Kenyans than any english I've met.

These english barbarians were running around killing each other when we were ornamenting highly decorated symbolism via Celtic Christianity books listening to four thousand year old tales of our ancestors songs. We then attempted to teach them how to write, it took them four hundred years.

What imperial cludgie did you slop oot from?
25

Mac Gill-eathan,

Its a secret 07/05/2008 00:50:36
The Union Ram it! Give the Russians Military Bases in our Sea lochs & watch Westminster & its Scottish lackeys tremble, RAM THEIR UNION!!!
26

catgut,

pomona 07/05/2008 00:50:58
David Cameron, the UK Tory leader, said he was not in favour of a referendum and did not relish the prospect of being prime minister of only England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Where is he going to get the Scottish seats to claim he is anything other that a English tory party?

How can the analysis state that ‘ The gamble is that this will kill off Mr Salmond and the SNP for a generation. But what a gamble’
Have labour got some policies that the people of Scotland nowadays support?

Let us have the vote it gets rid of wars, submarines nuclear power and the tories all with one yes or should it be yes yes yes yes!!!!!!!!!!!!
27

Vivas,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:57:05
I invite you to have a right good belly laugh at this comedy piece in todays Times from Tim Luckhurst, the former editor of "The NorthBritishMan"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article3882830.ece
28

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 07/05/2008 01:02:59
Let's go SCOTLAND. I can smell the sweet clean air of INDEPENDENCE flowing over SCOTLAND already. BRING IT ALL ON.
29

JimC,

Kilmarnock 07/05/2008 01:08:00
Alex Salmond gave his timetable almost a year ago, it was crystal clear and I hope he sticks to that timetable. That was what he promised those who voted SNP and we expect nothing less. As for Wendy's wee tantrum and demands, I think her party should have her sectioned, I really thought that she was about to burst into tears on TV last night.
30

Royster,

07/05/2008 01:18:19
No problem with this as long as they close Holyrood before the referendum. Devolution just isn't working. Also, if the Scots get a referendum on withdrawing from the union, why don't the English?
31

,

07/05/2008 01:22:14
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32

,

07/05/2008 01:26:38
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33

Matt there,

somewhere 07/05/2008 01:29:59
"Here, Wendy! Take this lovely chalice!"
"But Gordon it is fizzing and it looks nasty!"

Will Wendy glug down her dear leader's poisoned chalice?

Probably.
34

Al Ford,

Insch 07/05/2008 01:37:02
It is unlikely that the UK PM takes the view that he is leaving the future of the UK in Ms Alexander's hands. Would you leave anything that you regarded as precious in her hands?

If the Scottish Parliament's referendum can only be of a consultative non-binding character under the Scotland Act, it could be that Mr Brown envisages following it with a Westminster referendum if the result is a narrow majority in favour of independence.

Under the present constitutional arrangements only a Westminster referendum would be binding, but a Holyrood one would no doubt be accepted without hesitation if it produced a result favourable to the UK government.

The UK government's attitude towards the SNP would thus seem to be comparable to its attitude towards the Scottish electorate in the 1979 40-per-cent-rule devolution referendum: heads we win; tails you lose.
35

Al Ford,

Insch 07/05/2008 01:45:08
CORRECTION:

It is unlikely that the UK PM takes the view that he is leaving the future of the UK in Ms Alexander's hands. Would you leave anything that you regarded as precious in her hands?

If the Scottish Parliament's referendum can only be of a consultative non-binding character under the Scotland Act, it could be that Mr Brown envisages following it with a Westminster referendum if the result is a narrow majority in favour of independence.

Under the present constitutional arrangements only a Westminster referendum would be binding, but a Holyrood one would no doubt be accepted without hesitation if it produced a result favourable to the UK government.

The UK government's attitude towards the SNP would thus seem to be comparable to its attitude towards the pro-devolutionists in the 1979 40-per-cent-rule devolution referendum: heads we win; tails you lose.
36

brian mcc,

the arctic 07/05/2008 01:47:26
Gordon Brown will be the last Scottish PM.
History may record him as a Scots loyalist.
Westminster is pondering the next snap election.

Can you get them out of Ireland as well Gordon?
37

Edward,

07/05/2008 02:07:16
Her performance on lats night's Newsnight Scotland was up to her usual classic level of abismal!
She kept harping on about having the referndum now, then when pressed by Gordon Brewer when would it likely be, she said it would take at least eighteen months, so let me think thats 12 months from now, would be May 2009, plus 6 months, thats January 2010
Sorry but isnt that the year when the SNP said they would have it?
The wicked witch of the west continually tried to avoid answering any of Gordon Brewers questions, all in all a completely pathetic performance, but one that we no see on a regular basis. Have Labour no shame in having someone like this as Leader in Scotland?
ealier in the same program, they had a taped interview with Nicol Stephens, who was decidedly not a happy bunny! He reminded one an all how undemocratic the LibDems really are by reminding that they were not in favour of a referendum and waffled on about Quebec having another referendum, someone should have a quite word in his ear as there are none planned in Quebec
38

Edward,

07/05/2008 02:29:52
Just recalling the interview with Gordon Brewer. Wendy Alexander had the brass cheek to state that it would be her and the Labour party that would frame the question for the referendum!
She really is a thick arrogant witch!
I dont want Labours filthy fingers anywhere near the referendum as they are just out to fix it for there own purposes
39

Vivas,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 02:45:42
You may not want to sub-let an office from Henry McLeish, but he has a far deeper insight into the current state of Scottish politics and the collective Scottish mind than Wendy and crew.

To paraphrase Henry (and I'm pulling a semi-reasonable figure out of the air here), even if "only" 40+% of the voters in a 2-option referndum opt for independence, then things are changed instantly and forever. Far from "killing" the notion for a generation, instead it makes it a perfectly achievable target over the next 10 or 20 years.

This to me would be the "worst case scenario" for the SNP and for independence...That whilst the possibility exists that SLAB could indeed win a pyrrhic victory in the next 2-3 years...That it justs sets the highest independence benchmark thus far, and with further future attempts at landing the indpendence wave further up the beach with a simple 51% majority. That majority becomes a perfectly attainable target in my lifetime (and I'm 47).

Its going to happen. Its really now just a question of "when".
40

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 07/05/2008 03:18:44
BEWARE!!!!! What a DASTARDLY MOVE. Brown set up this Commission all Unionists of course, prior to his announcement that Alexander can do what she want's with the constitution. Brilliant, those MORONS can now move aroung SCOTLAND at TAX PAYERS expense spreading the POISON on our countries asperations on becoming part of the World as what a normal COUNTRY should do.It should be DISBANDED or REPORTED TO THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION for unfair TACTICS. BEWARE!!!!!
41

john z,

edinburgh 07/05/2008 03:19:45
I can just see all those greasy labour MP's from Scotland in Westminster, lining up to give wendy a pat on the back. Not!

Alex Salmond must be filled with the joys of spring, watching Labour tear itself to bits. Bendy Wendy, will go down in the history books for all the wrong reasons.

I am truly astonished at this latest piece of unbelievable stupidity from Scottish Labour. Vessels the lot of them.

As regards the timing of a referendum, I do believe that is a matter for the democratically elected Scottish Government, led by the democratically elected SNP first minster, Alex Salmond. Sorry, wendy, remember you LOST the election, you're not in the government anymore dear.

It is a joy, that after so many years, the people of Scotland are starting to see what a crowd of utter wasters the Labour party are, and the way they have sold Scottish interest down the river, just to secure power in Westminster.

Oh Wendy, reap what you sow, reap what you sow.

I'll gie her and Broon four weeks.
42

Royster,

07/05/2008 03:35:21
The responses from the SNP supporters on this board are perverse in the extreme. I thought you wanted a vote. After all, you might win. I'm a unionist but I'm hardly enthralled with the quality of Labour MSPs. Also, if the oil price continues to go up your half-baked economic arguments make slightly more sense. As with the whole sorry devolution exercise, it appears to have been on the hoof with no thought of the consequences for the country - just personal advancement and the arrogance of a party which believed it couldn't lose.
43

john z,

edinburgh 07/05/2008 03:56:16
45, Royster,

Take a wee look at the comment article in the times, as referenced above, and you'll maybe understand why so many people want independence.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article3882830.ece
Apparently, to get independence, the people of Scotland, need to ask the permission of England. And here was me thinking those poor English folk subsidised Scotland, and we were an economic burden to English tax payers.

Most analysts predict the price of oil will continue to increase for the foreseeable future, and yes, the economic arguments do make sense. Causes a lot of economic problems for England though., if Scotland becomes independent. No more cheap oil, and tax revenue. We'll let the English keep broon though.

Alex Salmond is like a breath of fresh air compared to the labour wasters previously in power in Scotland. A new SNP government, a new perspective for Scotland. At last.
44

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

07/05/2008 04:03:11
Hey Edward, basic arithmetic is obviously not one of your strong points. Either that or you do not know how a calendar works.

What a thicko.
45

Royster,

07/05/2008 04:19:45
#46. England doesn't need the oil. Sorry but it doesn't regardless of what you want to believe. Of course, it comes in handy but England would not be damaged if it ran out tomorrow; its economy is simply too big and diversified. Can you honestly say the same for Scotland? A word of warning on oil though. If the Chinese float their currency, this will slow down capital investment in China which is currently pushing the price higher. The oil price would then collapse... and I mean collapse. Now, let me see. How is the Irish housing market doing and the Icelandic economy compared to the UK?
46

Richardinho,

07/05/2008 04:35:09
'(England's) economy is simply too big and diversified. Can you honestly say the same for Scotland?'

Well that's kind of the point isn't it? Scotland has not benefited from being a dependency of England. It needs to become independence so that it can reach it's full potential.
47

donald,

glasgow 07/05/2008 04:39:59
I will miss the Bendy one. Still, knowing Labour's depleted gen pool we know another one will be along in a minute.
48

Royster,

07/05/2008 04:45:52
#49. Oh come on? The south of England has been the economic centre of Britain since Roman times. During the industrial revolution both the north of England and the Clyde benefited. For Scotland to benefit from the breaking up of the union it would have to compete with England on everything to attract business. That means 1) creating a Scottish curency and floating it (no fixed exchange rate to the Euro and the English pound) 2) much lower tax rates which naturally means massive cuts in public expenditure - kiss good-bye to your NHS (like Ireland) and your benefits. If Scotland can do this, then it can compete until that is that England decides to do the same.
49

Richardinho,

07/05/2008 05:01:10
#51 What utter garbage! The idea that because the south of england is a power house, it means that Scotland can't compete-rubbish!
That would apply to the rest of the world-and obviously it doesn't. Your whole argument is the politics of despair-that Scotland is weak and needs England to sustain it.I say if Scotland is weak, lets try something different.
50

Richardinho,

07/05/2008 05:05:30
'Shows how much confidence that the Scottish Tories in
their own country that they
believe that it would be a disaster for Scotland to become Independent.'

Although they don't all think that. David McLetchie speeking in 1999 said that an independent Scotland could thrive.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/scotland_99/news/323814.stm
51

Royster,

07/05/2008 06:03:42
#58. Your naive belief is breathtaking. I don't trust economists and politicians - and I certainly wouldn't trust a politician who used to be an economist. Use your common sense - that's all politics and economics is.
52

Royster,

07/05/2008 06:07:36
#58. Of course Scotland can't compete with England - in the same way as the UK can't compete with China in manufacturing. Scotland will have a 'one trick pony' economy and that will be oil. Then we're down to golf courses. I can't think of many small countries with large varied economies except perhaps Belgium and the Netherlands. But their populations are much bigger and their geographical situation is better.
53

Royster,

07/05/2008 06:14:01
Soar Irn Bru!
54

Damy Ruby,

07/05/2008 06:14:19
This all began with Blair agreeing offering devolution to win power back in 1997 and it was obvious that this would eventually get to this critical point in history. Couple that with an ineffectual PM who has taxed everyone to the hilt when Chancellor and then give a singled out community the chance to get out of it his mire and you end up with the situation today. The fact that the so called PM of the United Kingdom is washing his hands of it all is nor surprising because he is heading to self implode! Let them both go down in History as the worst thing that every happened to our country.
55

Blarney,

Cardonnel 07/05/2008 06:22:26
Broon is the driving force behind this, Ubendy is only his puppet. If Broon was to be seen to be pushing for a referendum, then the EU referendum would be biting chunks out of his extremly large backside.
2010 is the year for the referendum, tha's only two years away.
Ubendy claims the country is in limbo, whereas I would say the country is infact moving forward rather fast and it is the Labour party that is in limbo. I would agree that the country has been in limbo for a long time while Labour were in charge and no doubt that is exactly where they would like us to retreat to again.
If Ubendy tries to force the wording of the referendum then perhaps it should be left to an international body to do the wording, like Norway for example. And perhaps the whole rferendum could be monitored and controlled by the UN or some other Independant and impartial body.
How does that sound Labour? Maybe a little to scary for you to contemplate something being observed and run fairly?
56

acanthus,

07/05/2008 06:32:00
Royster,
You have no understanding of Scotlands ecomomy. Oil is not a one trick pony...what a stupid thing to say. Have a look at the Scottish companies who are world leaders in the field and will continue to be so (and the huge workforce)..it's much more than just oil. But if it made Norway one of the richest countries in the world with a £200 billion invetment fund (Scotland is currently £0) to rely on..we can take that and you can rely on manufacturing base (which is what/where exactly?).
Lastly you will find that competitiors win on excellence and not due to size; hence Croatia beating you at football recently.
But you will have London to subsidise the rest of the country so all is not lost!
57

yockel,

07/05/2008 06:53:46
Can I have some of what ever it is Royster is smoking, must be good stuff.
58

subrosa,

07/05/2008 06:55:24
Article by Iain McWhirter in the Guardian:http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/iain_macwhirter/2008/05/grasping_the_thistle.html
59

acanthus,

07/05/2008 06:58:56
I notice from Wendy's interview the following:

"I firmly believe the SNP should not control the timing, the question and the agenda"

Really? Well i have a funny feeling that is exactly what they are going to do Wendy, all thanks to your masterful display of political tactics lol.
60

steve 1511,

aberdeen 07/05/2008 07:00:01
wendy ,the women cannot even keep track of her bungs,never mind organise scotland future,she comes across as an infantile eejit and a dunderheid
61

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 07/05/2008 07:03:21
Union-loving Royster:

I certainly wouldn't put my trust in YOU, that's for sure!!!
62

Royster,

07/05/2008 07:06:19
#66. Of course oil is a 'one trick pony'. I don't think the world-leading Scottish companies you mention will be sufficient to provide for the needs of the local population - unless the local population is willing to accept a significant fall in living standards and entitlements. Croatia is not a major economic power. If you are willing to accept Croatian living standards without the sunshine then so be it.
63

Independence? Bring it On!,

07/05/2008 07:07:48
Royster, we feel your pain. It's not your fault. You have been well and truly shafted by the WENDY, her on the hoof policy making in the face of the mild grilling from Glen Campbell on the Politics Show has killed the Union stone dead. That one minute of blustering bravado has consigned Labour in Scotland to the midden. It was her latest 10/10 moment.

Come on feller we know that you've got Scotland at heart, come on over to the dark side. We're the happy, smiley, confident people.
64

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/05/2008 07:09:51
"Brown Leaves The Future Of Union In Wendy's Hands"

Kind of says it all doesn't it.

Must make all the Unionists sleep well a night knowing that there precious Union is in the capapable hands of Wendy Alexander.
65

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 07/05/2008 07:14:43
Wendy must press for a long argued for (by me) INDICATIVE referendum on independence. This does not require Westminster permission, but can air and sort out all the arguments and point up all the pros and cons.

For my part I also wish to see the con/federalism option debated seriously. This seems to offer most of the advantages and few of the disadvantages of a total political splitting of our small island.
66

jj veritas,

07/05/2008 07:20:02
How about a refendum on the EU Treaty of Constitution or one on the Euro. Promises, promises.
67

acanthus,

07/05/2008 07:23:07
Royster,
No, we will take they prosperity of Norway. You are an expert on the Croation ecomony i assume?
In fact Norway has a much higher living standard than the Uk (all due to a 'one trick pony' of course) and does not have a huge manufacturing base either?
Scotland should be living at least at the same standard today but we aren't, are we?
So what exactly is your point? That oil does not matter? I think you should make this point to Norway and see what they think of your brilliant assertion?
Fool!

68

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 07/05/2008 07:33:10
The Irish and the Icelandic economies are going down the pan as we speak.

The only secure work in Scotland is in the various branches of the civil service.

Ten percent of homes already have no one at work.

Independence will sort this?
69

Independence? Bring it On!,

07/05/2008 07:36:57
#79 Rules, you must be terrified to open your curtains of a morning. Do you exude such confidence in life when teaching the young of Dundee?
70

Royster,

07/05/2008 07:52:58
#77. Have you seen the Norwegian tax rate?
71

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/05/2008 07:54:33
#79

The Irish economy is suffering from house price deflation which has been happening for a over a year.

The English housing market is just 3 months into their death spiral, give it time.

Iceland is suffering from the glut of infrastructure that has been invested to take advantage of Geo Thermal resources. This created a significant imbalance in their current account which market forces are sorting out.

You may want to stop using Iceland in your comparisons as the Icelandic stock market has gone up 13% in the last month.

How these in any way compare to Scotlands economic situation is beyond me, maybe you can explain the parellels.
72

acanthus,

07/05/2008 07:56:12
79 RBNB,

What point are you making? That civil service is a secure job in any country..brilliant, ever thought of becoming an economist lol.

As for your statement 'Ten percent of homes already have no one at work' (i didn't know this) perhaps you should ask who is to blame for this?

Can you blame it on independence..no. Well done, you have just check mated yourself!

What are the unemployment and economy stats for Norway, any idea?
73

Steve,

Bo'ness 07/05/2008 07:57:47
79, yes it's a terrible indictment on the union isn't it?

Typical unionist mantra, belittling Scotland's prospects under independence, while simultaneously doing F*** ALL to improve them yourselves.
74

Royster,

07/05/2008 07:57:49
#73. Thanks for the polite offer. I too feel the pain inficted by half-witted, fuss-pot Labour politicians such as Donald Dewar. Nevertheless, I put loyalty to the UK above its constituent parts. I don't want to see an international border on the island of Great Britain.
75

PJ Walker,

East Lothian 07/05/2008 07:58:15
The first good decision Wendy has made, calling the bluff of a ranting and raving minority. It's put up or shut up. Thank goodness there will be an end to the 'I' word for at least a generation after 2010.
76

Royster,

07/05/2008 07:59:29
#82. But unlike Irealnd, interest rates in the UK are set according to the needs of the UK economy not the needs of the euri-zone economy like in Ireland. This is why Ireland is monumentally stuffed for at least 10 years.
77

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/05/2008 08:00:07
#79

"Ten percent of homes already have no one at work.

Independence will sort this?"

The culture of dependacy and hopelessnes that has been the hallmark of the last 60 years of Scotlands benifits from the Union will not just suddenly disappear with indepenence.

But would you not agree that solving these problems when you are dealing with a country of 5 million is easier than when you are dealing with a State of 60 Million?
78

JayJay,

Right here 07/05/2008 08:00:18
Two things struck me after yet another lamentable performance from Wendy on newsnight.
1) It seems perfectly clear that, in her mind, any referendum would require a majority vote. I see a shafting on the horizon, and it is all the more galling when we look at the likes of David Cameron crowing about securing 44% of the Council vote when only 40% of the people voted.
2) When asked to justify the Union, the best she could do was claim that "it was up to the SNP to make the case for independence".
Yes the thing I long for most is to hear Wendy's eloquent discourse on how Scotland is better off being ruled by London. She could do worse than have a read at the Evening Standard in one of their regular anti-jock rants. That is typically full of half truths and downright lies.
I do hope the people of Scotland can collectively embrace a positive spirit and despatch these London monkeys to the remains of their empire. Seems to me that Wendy and her ilk have naught to offer but the status quo and relentless negativity. We deserve better.
79

David MacVicar,

Web 07/05/2008 08:01:00
60 Royster.

You really have a nerve calling anyone naive.

After Traqair provided a detailed counter to your previous rambling post, your best argent is: "I don't trust economists and politicians".

You really put him in his place with that one!

"The south of England has been the economic centre of Britain since Roman times" You have a point there and Westminster has spent the last 40 years ensuring it stays that way. Most investment has been in the South East and has been done by taking investment away from N England, Wales and Scotland, while Scotland alone has been pumping billions into the Economy of the South, with a double whammy of Southern regeneration through Oil backed UK international loans, while rest of UK manufacturing was largely dismantled, including profitable Steel, Scottish fishing given away etc.

Deny it all you want its all in the public domain these days.

You are right that Scotlands economy is different, yet we are bound to follow Westminsters decisions 100% used to support the Economy of the South.

Royster, as someone from South of the border your position on the general superior nature of England focused on the Se Economy while promoting that Scotland should remain a region dependant on Westminster decisions also focused entirely on the South is ludicrous, disengenuous and insulting.
80

Royster,

07/05/2008 08:02:02
#88. Of course these problems are more difficult to solve with a small population because you don't have the economy of scale. People's needs, though, remain the same.
81

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/05/2008 08:05:04
#87

No Interest rates are set to meet the needs of London and the Southeast, and beggar the regions.

I don't think Ireland is stuffed for the next 10 years.

They are going through a very painful process of house price deflation.

This won't take 10 years to right, and in the interim that continue to attract companies from England.
82

Independence? Bring it On!,

07/05/2008 08:05:50
#85 Royster, we both know that an international border within a border free EU is a non starter. You know that Dr Reid's scaremongering of Border guards, customs, watchtowers, guard dogs etcetera was myth building best found in the pages of a Commando book.

I respect your loyalty to the UK, however I would say that the concept of the UK is organic and is currently undergoing metamorphosis. Wouldn't you feel better contributing to your country than siding with the likes of Brown and Alexander?
83

Royster,

07/05/2008 08:08:00
#90. Countries tend have a natural centre of business -usually it has been around for centuries. It normally centres around a river, some form of shelter or a resource which in turn creates a large population. Paris, London, Rome, New York, Beijing and Tokyo are the best examples. Some cities come and go - Bruges (which got silted up), Amsterdam (didn't have the economy of scale to compete with the Brits inspite of being state-of-the-art in banking, trade and finance).
84

capy,

edinburgh 07/05/2008 08:11:27
i take it calman can start his summer hols? heard the blessed wendy on 5 live last night peter allen gave up trying to get her to answer questions. ie why the sudden change of mind and did you speak to mr broon before your change of heart.interesting times eh?
85

Royster,

07/05/2008 08:13:06
#93. I'm not talking about border guards though it is conceivable that the English could impose work visas - you know... just for a laugh like. You still need to register at police stations in some EU states though not in Ireland. However, if you have a government which acts solely in the interests of Scotland, the probability is that you also get a government south of the border which acts solely in the interests of England. Nationalists will say this is already the case with Westminster but I beg to differ on that. This is not a good situation for the people of this island.
86

Kamp