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New session, new name as SNP sets work of government



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Published Date:
03 September 2007
THE Scottish Parliament resumes today, with an ambitious programme of work including reforming the law on rape, abolishing bridge tolls and outlawing airguns.
The minority SNP-led government is expected to push for new laws on limiting hospital waiting times as well as a number of non-legislative measures aimed at boosting the economy and tackling climate change.

But ministers will first mark a change in direction by rebranding themselves as the Scottish Government.

From today, the term Scottish Executive will be consigned to history. The heading on buildings, note paper and public messages will be changed to the Scottish Government and the sign of Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom will be replaced by a Saltire design.

The £100,000 rebranding has been criticised by other parties as a costly publicity stunt. But the new Scottish government insists it is a "commonsense change".

A spokesman said: "Research shows the term 'Scottish Executive' is confusing or meaningless to people, which undermines the business of good governance in Scotland. This has been recognised across the political parties and under successive administrations since 1999. The time is right to make this common-sense change."

In the election, the SNP made number of expensive pledges including building a new crossing across the Firth of Forth, cutting rates for small businesses and freezing council tax.

Labour said the programme would add up to a £3.2 billion black hole.

JUSTICE


SCOTLAND'S rape laws are to be overhauled for the first time in 30 years. A definition of consent is to be included in Scots law to close the loophole allowing accused to escape because the alleged victim had been drinking. Sexual attacks on men will also be included. The measures are supported by other parties and women's groups.

THE ARTS


THE government will set up a new agency to promote the arts. However, many in the arts community are afraid current plans for Creative Scotland, which will replace the Scottish Arts Council and Scottish Screen, will allow ministers to interfere in the arts. The SNP has also promised to increase grants for up-and-coming artists.

HEALTH


The government wants to introduce a legally binding guarantee on waiting times so that no patient is waiting more than 18 weeks after visiting a GP. However, doctors fear the compensation payments awarded to patients left waiting will drain NHS resources. A bill to introduce direct elections to health boards will also be introduced.

CLIMATE CHANGE


A CONSULTATION is to be launched on ways to tackle climate change. The SNP promised to introduce a climate change bill, which will commit the government to reducing carbon output each year, as part of its agreement with the Greens. A website telling companies how they can help the environment will be launched today.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT


DECOUPLING Holyrood and council elections so that they can be held on separate days is likely to be backed. However, long-term plans to replace the council tax with local income tax are likely to be more difficult, with Labour insisting it will be "less efficient and less fair". There could also be problems over the council tax rebate.

TARTAN REGISTER


FIRST proposed by the Tory MSP Jamie McGrigor, a national register of tartans is to be introduced to ensure Scotland remains at the forefront of the industry. The publicly owned and managed register received cross-party support. But opponents have called it a "cosmetic exercise that will not protect designs from commercial exploitation".

FIREARMS


FOLLOWING the death of Scottish toddler Andrew Morton, the government wants to bring in firearms legislation to control airguns. However, this is dependent on approval from Westminster, as powers will have to be devolved or Holyrood allowed to pass its own law in a one-off procedure.

TRANSPORT


A BILL to abolish tolls on the Forth and Tay bridges will be easy to pass and spending on a new Forth crossing is also likely to be popular. However, other transport measures on roads, such as the M74, are likely to be opposed by the Greens. The government has already delayed the Edinburgh Airport Rail Link, but is committed to trams in Edinburgh.

HIGHER EDUCATION


LEGISLATION to scrap the graduate endowment fee paid by students after they complete a university course is likely to be backed by other parties. However, controversial plans to scrap student debt are likely to be more difficult to pass. Replacing student loans with grants will also be expensive.

COMMONWEALTH GAMES


LEGISLATION is needed to support spending on Glasgow's bid for the 2014 Games. Rogue traders and unauthorised advertisers will also face being fined up to £20,000 under proposals contained in the Commonwealth Games Bill. However, the bill could be a waste of time if Glasgow fails to win the bid, with a decision expected in November.

The full article contains 813 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 02 September 2007 9:43 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish Executive
 
1

Lindsey, Glasgow,

02/09/2007 23:35:07

They wanted to limit us to a "Parish Council".

We now have the SNP in power and a SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT.

Those that sought, and seek to limit the march of OUR Nation, can now, in their own time, go and "think again".

(Cant stop picturing George.... oh,forgot, LORD George Robertson declaring how Devolution would "kill the SNP stone dead".)

2

,

02/09/2007 23:50:01
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3

,

03/09/2007 00:00:43
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4

Jock MacSprog,

03/09/2007 00:04:43

this is perfectly symbolic of the SNP's modus operandi, ie, "lets pretend our way to independence". They can spend our tax monies changing signs on building and stationary all they want, officially, in the eyes of the law and on legal documents on both sides of the "border" its still the Scottish Executive. I guess if the people of Scotland havent voted for Independence and still are consistently polling against it, you can pretend by engaging in empty gestures like this. The SNP and Salmond are masters of empty gestures and populist politics. What of substance have they done since being elected that does not involve giving things away for free (our own money, thanks) ? What have they done to improve the economy, health care, transport, education ???? All they do is wind up the sad nats who get a huge thrill over things like changing signs on buildings. Probably the same people scrawling sad Nat slogans on buildings around Edinburgh in chalk.

5

Senga Jean,

Scottland is now well governed. 03/09/2007 00:10:48

Jalepeno you are a frothy overzealous thingymejig. Calm down. Calm down. You will give Unionism a bad name. (As if it needs one)

6

,

03/09/2007 00:16:07
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7

Darryl Matheson,

Elgin, Morayshire 03/09/2007 00:31:53

What, that’s it?

Surely there’s more

8

Richardinho,

03/09/2007 00:32:38

Presumably all the people who object to money being spent on this also object to Britain spending money agrandising itself on the world stage, paying for the royal family, embassies, umpteen 'state occasions' etc. Nope, didn't think so.

I grew up with unionists telling we Scots we couldn't do anything. Now we shall do what we want.

9

Jock MacSprog,

03/09/2007 00:33:26

7 Your missing the whole point. Gradualist independence is just gesture politics, pretending. It can only go up to a point, real independence will only come by having a referendum and then maybe a vote by the UK Parliament. So all this w--king by the SNP does nothing, it just wastes time and money that would be better channeled into making Scotland more successful and less of a basket case in almost every category. Get on with governing Holyrood people and stop the populist pretendy politics.

10

clawmaster,

glasgow 03/09/2007 00:39:57

at last we have government in this country and not some that sounds like a health & safety executive.

well done salmond & co for restoring some pride in our parliament and generating some confidence in our country.

11

pehman,

sussex 03/09/2007 00:46:15

10 Jock,
Once we've had a referendum, w/minster can go -- -- itself. they will have no say on the result.

Also just btw, if a majority is obtained during any election, then that will be taken de facto to have been a referendum.

There are you happy now ?

12

Richardinho,

03/09/2007 00:46:58

Everything Labour did was with the intention of belittling and demeaning the country. Even the building of the Parliament; because Calton Hill was a 'nationalist shibboleth', apparently! (We can't have Scots actually being proud of the Scottish parliament can we!)

The Change of Name is right and correct and a bargain at that.

13

Richardinho,

03/09/2007 00:56:15

It's funny, You do a 'double take' with that picture. Suddenly the building looks like a receptacle of power. It's hard to believe it's in Scotland-yet it is.
People say names aren't important-they are talking rubbish; perceptions are everything!

The opposition might bleet that no consultation was done on this; why spend even more money consulting with those blockheads who've shown they don't deserve to run Scotland?

14

Senga Jean,

03/09/2007 01:01:20

Zippidy do dah Zippididehay. My oh My what a wonderful day. Scotland might just be confident enough to say that it is well governed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

15

Jock MacSprog,

03/09/2007 01:07:46

13 better go back and read your SNP pamplet again, there is more too it than that. I dont think you'll see Westminster "just going" that easily. In any case, the Scottish public seem to have no interest, so it will be a moot point for many many years to come. My goodness a majority of 1 in a regional legislature and people are getting all excited !

16

,

03/09/2007 01:15:00
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17

macdonaj,

Winnipeg.Canada 03/09/2007 01:18:24

In Canada the head of the Canadian government is called Prime Minister. Provincial heads of government
are called Premier.
Now that Scotland has a Scottish Government would
it not be more appropriate to call the head of governmnent 'Premier". It would be much more descriptive of what the position entails.

18

pehman,

sussex 03/09/2007 01:33:35

20 Jock,

After a referendum or ANY election in favour of Independence, w/minster can butt out.

It will have no say whatsoever.

The division of the uk and Scotland will be handled by the UN and I would think the EU also.

The UK has signed many international treaties, you somehow think it will break them, or is this just more unionist scare stories to scare barins we

19

,

03/09/2007 01:38:57
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20

pehman,

sussex 03/09/2007 01:42:01

21 A Proud Doonhamer,

WOW 40% fork me man, I know what you say about the margin of error but 40% .

If that came to pass as it were we will be Independent by this time next year.

21

Gareth,

Ottawa 03/09/2007 01:43:32

#22 agreed.

..but why stop there, in Quebec, the 'nation within Canada', they call their Premier the "Prime Minister", if I were Alex I'd probably adopt that title for myself for the sheer indulgent pleasure of driving Gordon batty!

22

pehman,

sussex 03/09/2007 01:47:07

24 A Proud Doonhamer,

Now you bring me back to Earth with a bump.

Do I take it then that 44% of the vote is required to win these last two seats ?

23

pehman,

sussex 03/09/2007 01:59:59

28 HardTruth,

Well thats me told then.

24

,

03/09/2007 02:13:03
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25

,

03/09/2007 02:15:53
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26

.Haggis The Great.,

Dunfermline 03/09/2007 02:29:50

Change a name to better reflect what an institution represents and Unionist like Jock MacSprog go into meltdown...why? because they can see the end of the Union is nigh, they can see they no longer have a grip on the reigns of power, they can see they propoganda they endlessly spout is undermined by the simple changing of one wee word.

Cheerio Jock and all that like you, for we are on our way to freedom and there is NOTHING, not one thing, you or anybody like you can do about it.

God, it feels so good to be released from the chains of Unionisim.

27

pehman,

sussex 03/09/2007 02:30:06

31 Doonhamer,

Cheers for that, 5% more than labour to win Independence.

Lets see the polls next week ?

28

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 03/09/2007 03:17:55

-- Gradualist independence is just gesture politics

6 words that don't mean anything. McSprog tends to continue in the same vein.

Politics is action. Politics is compromise. Alex Salmond continues to address those who dislike SNP policies. Attemped character assassination is the cheapest trick in the book. Desist!

29

A True Englishman,

Why England of course 03/09/2007 04:06:44

I think all you sad Scots should stop moaning about everything this is all you ever do moan moan moan don't worry we here in England can not stand the sight nor sound of you ( especially your sound ) there should be a huge border erected which keeps you all out of England I hope you get independence from England it will be interesting you crawling back in 3 years or so but I would never let you back in Scotland will be ( if not is already close to ) a Third World country within 3 years as you are all drunks woman beaters and no one has a full set of teeth :) I will refrain from mentioning anything about Football

30

Royster,

03/09/2007 04:17:51

Hang on a minute - putting all partisan arguments aside - if documents are put out in the name of the Scottish Government, are they legally valid as the Scottish Government does not legally exist? At the very least they can be challenged in court. Also, doesn't this go against the wishes of the people who voted for devolution?

31

Geoff,

South Africa 03/09/2007 05:16:45

39 A True Englishman-sounds more like a true snp provocateur to me! Even if he was an englishman, he no more represents english opinion than does robert mugbe reprsent scots. Have a nice day

32

Boy Wonder,

03/09/2007 05:35:30

I hope all the nay-sayers are noting that the present Scottish Government is still riding high in the polls as they continue to have a positive effect in thr country. Long may it continue as Alex & co get on with the work of government!

All New Labour has done of any valuie is moan and girn. The Libdems are Tories are beneath contempt!

33

Ex-pat observer,

03/09/2007 05:35:53

#28 - You are completely incorrect. The break-up of the UK will have to be negotiated by the constituent parts of the UK. That will mean, among other things, discussion of and agreement on the legacy aspects of the obligations and responsibilities of the UK, including areas such as on-going defence spending, allocation and ownership of natural resources, various treaty obligations, the status of Northern Ireland, continued areas of pooled sovereignty, on-going diplomatic relationships etc etc.

For Scotland to declare independence unilaterally would mean instant international isolation - with all the horrific diplomatic, political and economic consequences that would bring. This is why the SNP's suggested referendum question is not about Scotland becoming independent but about negotiation with Westminster, although even that is ridiculous as the Scottish government could not negotiate the break-up of the UK with a government led by a Scot representing a Scottish constituency. Instead, we would have to ait for the English, the Welsh and the Northern Irish to elect their own representatives to take part in discussions.

Once negotiations have been completed, the final settlement would again be put to the Scottish people for a vote and only when the settlement was approved by the Scottish people would the countdown to independence begin. To think that negotiations would be anything but long and hard is naive to say the least, and after that we are all stil going to have to get along on this small island of ours.

34

Ex-pat observer,

03/09/2007 05:39:18

#32 - In what way is Scotland not free at the moment. The Scots are in complete control of their futures, they have freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. To use words such as freedom is an insult to all those who really do live in unfree, undemocratic parts of the world.

35

Ex-pat observer,

03/09/2007 05:46:49

#21 - If you look at the first page of the poll you will see that of those people questioned in Scotland more voted for the SNP in 2005 than voted for Labour, which indicates that the base from which numbers are extrapolatd for Scotland is not actually representative.

36

Joe,

Next Train out 03/09/2007 05:56:02

Scotland spends more money supporting it's Royal Family - Rangers and Celtic!

37

Mr Buggy,

Fife 03/09/2007 06:10:32

Jalepeno move to England. Or stay and continue to underestimate your political opponent. Throughout history this has been a big mistake and it is good to see that history is repeating itself.

38

,

03/09/2007 06:33:07
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39

An Australian of Scottish Ancestry,

03/09/2007 06:35:16

Ex-pat Observer,
Do you not believe that Scotland will only be free when the head of the Scottish state is a Scot? Furthermore, when Scotland bears her own constitution, and complete sovereign control over ALL of her domestic and foreign affairs?

40

An Australian of Scottish Ancestry,

03/09/2007 06:45:47

Since when have the English liked us, or for that matter, vice versa? Prior to 1707, Scotland had the control over her national affairs that I previously aluded to. The only uncertainty that I have is the SNP's emphatic endorsement of oil capital as an economic foundation for re-independence.

To me, this does not seem like a secure option for the long-term sustainability of the Scottish economy. What do you think?

41

howyoudoingboy;,

03/09/2007 07:03:25

"New session, new name as SNP sets work of government"

somebody best let the Scottish.parliament know then. As they still use 'The Scottish Executive' and not 'Government'

Still they have just come back from their hols so that may change ? if the other parties agree to allow the change.

What l would like to know is on the 'Government' the heading is the 'Saltire' alone whilst 'The Scottish Parliament' has the saltire with the crown.

Constitutionally which is more senior 'The Government' or 'The Scottish Parliament'
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/home.htm

42

Alberto.,

03/09/2007 07:05:49

Another great expensive Political move at cost to the taxpayer for what seems nothing more than Political Ego boosting with, as yet, nothing to show for it!

The job of proving 'Government' is a meaningful word has suddenly become that much harder for the SNP - and it may well be their last chance, as well as their first!

One would have thought they would have learnt from the massive lesson that Blair imposed on us every day that all spin and no content = failure and chaos!

But 'No' - first thing, regardless of immediately telling us about the massive financial hole they have inherited (Really?)
donates a massive amount to Africa, and now this self boosting costly, and currently wasteful exercise all at taxpayers expense!

Lets us not forget the old saying - 'A Rose, by any other name, will still smell as sweetly - and the same connection applies to something that doesn't smell so good!

Like the costly building Holyrood. the ‘Governments’ home - it's not the architectural merit that is important, it’s the quality of content that the SNP, or whoever the occupants happens to be anytime, produce from within that will tell us how good, or not they are, and whether the qualification for the title 'Government' is merited!

What's in a name if the evidence is bad - no matter who is telling you its good!

I hope this is not an early start to the Pantomime season - as it could certainly seem to be!

43

Huntlylad,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 07:07:21

#44,45,46

Thanks for that ... saved me typing it. Glad to see there is some sanity out there. There are a lot of immature views on these threads. You are absolutely correct ... we would want to negotiate our position with all parties to the UK and, if course internationally with the UN, EU, NATO and a host of others before putting a proposal to the Scottish people.

44

Cadgers,

Perth 03/09/2007 07:07:27

"A picture paints a thousand words" and that one above does it for me!

45

Tweedmouth,

03/09/2007 07:13:52

More SNP propaganda; flags, name changes and symbols rather than real achievements. There is only one government in the UK and it is based in London, where a Scottish Prime Minister, Scottish European Minister, Scottish Defence Minister and Scottish Education Minister dominate the cabinet - as they did in the previous 'scottish' government under Blair.

Scotland is not a state, has no constitution, no army, no airforce, no navy, does not raise taxes, and proposes legislation only on matters which ahve been devolved to it by the sovereign Parliament of the UK. What we have is a devolved Executive. The SNP are following a propaganda strategy of trying to drive a wedge between people in Scotland and people in England. It won't work.

46

BK,

Cyberspace 03/09/2007 07:14:58

#22 The unionists got their knickers into a right twist when they ventured, reluctantly, into Gaelic. In Gaelic the translated "Firt Minister" as "Priomh Ministear" which is obviously closer to "Prime Minister." This was beacuse they wanted at all costs to avoid the term "Ministear Toiseach," the more accurate translation. Why? Because the word for "first", "Toiseach" has connotations of its Irish version, "Taoiseach," and might give the Scots notions of an independent republic!

47

Expat,

Suffolk 03/09/2007 07:15:46

Two points I wish to make to our Australian friend. Scotland did not have much control over her own destiny in the century before union, the move of James VI south of the border removed an important keystone of nationhood and came in tandem with the English (sic) British civil war a few years later. Scotland intervened in this war on the side of the monarchy, in a bid to secure recognition of its religion and our reward was to be subjugated by Cromwell, ignored by Charles II (last king to be crowned in Scotland) and persecuted by James VII. The failure of the Darrien project and Scotland's near bankruptcy, a bribe to the Scottish aristocracy and the proposed citing of the Scots as 'aliens' by the English government brought us to the negotiating table. 'Control' - far from it : I spent four years at university obtaining an MA in Scottish history but not even I am that blinkered from the truth. The second point relates to 'Since when have the English liked us..etc'. There is a long and proud 'social union' between England and Scotland (Alex Salmond's words). Most English people like the Scots and are a bit bewildered when they realise the level of hate directed against them by a minority of bigots from north of the border. I have lived among the English for many years, my children were born here, my wife is English. Strip away the 'little' Englander stuff and you will find a land rich in folk history, the arts and literature, some beautiful countryside, fantastic food and a warm and tolerant people. Hey, they aren't that different from us. One day Scotland may well be independent but let's show that we have really grown up and learn to live and let live with our closest neighbour and potentially best friend.

48

Captain America,

03/09/2007 07:17:41

As an impartial observer, I have a question. I stress that I have no dog in this hunt so I'm really asking out of curiosity. I wonder what would happen to the great universities of Scotland (Glasgow, Edinburgh, St. Andrews, Dundee, Stirling, Aberdeen, etc) if Scotland became independent. Science and scholarship at these unis are heavily funded by the research councils of the UK. Small countries very seldom are able to support at sufficient levels the type of science that drives the economies of larger countries. How would an independent Scotland fund the science at these unis at a level that would keep internationally recognized scientists and scholars here? And if they left (many of them would certainly have other offers) then what would sustain Scotland's position as a leader in areas like biotech and alternative energy, among others?

49

john z,

03/09/2007 07:34:25

I can't believe it was called Scottish Executive in the first place. What a dumb name.

Well done to the SNP for giving it it's real name. The Scottish Government.

The country is changing, and Scottish Labour/ lib Dems should wake up to reality, instead of living in the past.

The Scottish Lib Dems really screwed up not going into coalition with the SNP.

50

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 07:54:59

Executive and it will remain so. NI and Wales don't mind being Assemblies.

Pointless posturing by the SNP.

Besides as the name implies Executives actually do things, governments on the other hand......

51

Doh,

03/09/2007 07:57:19

#57

Does gaelic distinguish between ordinals and cardinals?

What is gaelic for prime.

If Alex Salmond wants to call himself Prime Minister of Scotland - that is fine by me. He could get himself some fancy new robes too.
People are vain and politicans are people we love to hate.

52

Hambo,

03/09/2007 07:58:05

#45
"In what way is Scotland not free at the moment."

Free to remove Trident?
Free to end firing of depleted uranium shells in Scotland?
Free to not take part in invading other countries?
Free to develop an economic policy that's right for Scotland rather than the City of London?

53

Brian Hill,

03/09/2007 08:13:51

No 2 Jalepeno says:
Thick as pig's droppings I tell you, I can;t wait ot vote porky out.

Rule of thumb, if you are calling someone stupid it's generally a good idea to get your spelling correct.

54

WL,

livingston 03/09/2007 08:16:14

#18
The conference is about tobacco control. The no-smoking law is about "smoking tobacco, any substance or mixture which includes it or any other substance or mixture", which seem to include nicotine-free and tobacco-free herbal cigarettes.

55

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 08:16:54

#63 You can just pick and choose what legislation you like and what you don't. Are you really that naive?

If Scotland were Independent, you wouldn't have the right to change any policies because you don't like it.

There are peole who are unhappy with current SNP legislation - there are free to object but not obstruct - same with Westminster.

While there is any government your freedoms will be restricted, but that's the price of stability.

56

Miss H,

03/09/2007 08:30:48

66 You are the one being naive.

It is inconceivable that an independent Scotland would want to maintain a nuclear arsenal.

It is equally inconceivable than an independent Scotland would participate in unilateral invasions of other countries.

We have nuclear weapons because we are part of the UK.

We took part in the invasion of Iraq because we are part of the UK. We may well see our troops sent to Iran for the same reason.

To describe these actions as 'policies' is somewhat wide of the mark. They are in fact the manifestation of the UK's determination to remain a global superpower, at any cost.

An independent Scotland would have no such ambitions.

57

Spotter,

03/09/2007 08:31:29

WELL DONE SALMOND THIS HAS MADE MY DAY

58

Billy,

Germany 03/09/2007 08:32:44

Congratulations SNP , showing Labour what it means to govern. They are laying the foundations of a new scottish society after the decades of Labour corruption and decay. I bet the opposition benches don't know what's hit them.

The changing of the name to Goverment is very important, again the SNP are showing they mean buisness . They will be running the country without looking for approval from their masters. And that's the difference. The SNP put Scotland first EVERY time unlike Labour who could only go so far without
upsetting their London Masters. Just check back to see how many decisions they didn't have the guts to make, and asked London to make it for them.

3rd rate people unfit for purpose from top to bottom.
Expect to see a whole plethora of Labour MSPS and councillors retiring, with or without pensions ,performance bonuses, redundancy payoffs and , of course the brown envelopes, rather
than compete and be humiliated by, the SNP during an
election campaign. Labour MSPS must be dizzy just trying to formulate some kind of policies to counteract the SNP. Too late they have been left in the SNP slipstream and hopefully they will all soon disappear over the horizon to spend more time with their families or "life partners" as they like to call them. Oh the times they are a changing.

59

Teamdroid,

03/09/2007 08:34:18

I read the Scotsman online this morning, and surprisingly not a whiff of a follow-up to yesterday's "Send a 10k cheque to meet the First Minister" scandal in the SoS. http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=867&id=139529... I'm shocked and disgusted. Surely such a major scandal at the heart of our politics should be thoroughly investigated?

Oh wait, it was another lame Murdo McClod attack piece. Will the Scotsman/SoS ever stop cringing, or will they just be honest for once, and rename themselves the North Briton/North Britain on Sunday?

I'm not even going to bother reading this rag online anymore, it's sunk so far.

60

Bermuda Bie,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 08:34:58

So the first thing he is done in 100+ days is change names from a nonsense one to a nonsense one for £100,000 plus plus plus. Sad numpty midget!

61

Ex-pat observer,

03/09/2007 08:36:07

#50 - Scotland is free to decide her future and has been for many decades. Self-determination = freedom, and Scots have self-determination. Thereare hundreds of millions across the world who do not and talking about freedom for Scotaldn demeans their suffering.

62

Ex-pat observer,

03/09/2007 08:40:38

#63 - Absolutely free to do all of that by voting in the SNP and negotiating the break-up of the UK. The fact is that Scotland has not chosen to do that, which is why Scotland is still a part of the UK.

63

Geoff,

Sunny South Africa 03/09/2007 08:41:54

68 Miss H-"it is inconceivable that Scotland would want to maintain a nuclear arsenal"
Absolutely-an SNP Scotland would rather hide under the nuclear umbrella of the USA,France and the remainder of the UK.
One question-do you believe that the West should unilaterally abandon its nuclear weapons?

64

Non political,

Stockbridge Primary (Full, great school) 03/09/2007 08:44:38

While all this"renaming of things" may have some psychological "boost" effect on some of us Scots the fact remains that it looks to a Lot of people here in Edinburgh that Emperor Salmond is merely "fiddling about" while Rome burns.

To most parents their childrens education Is the MOST important single thing that our local/national "government" does for us and if it messes that one thing up, then.......


Please fix it.

65

Edward,

03/09/2007 08:46:15

#61 Nick_Byrne, Glasgow
You seem to miss the point
The term Government is more appropriate and reflects Scotland's standing. Or would you prefer that it was mearly a parish council??
Funny thing is Scottish Government was proposed by the Libdems some time back but didnt do anything about it, it is also supported by Wendy Alexander.
If its good enough for all the Canadian provinces and all the Austrlian states, why is it to good for Scotland?
Its about time you and the rest of the unioist junkies woken up and had a reality check
At least the SNP are puting some pride back into Scotland, what did Labour do for the last 50 years of dominance in Scotland, simply they did nothing but screw Scotland and perpetuated the myth that Scotland isnt up to the task. Scotland is a more than capable nation state, its about time the pro unionist junkies realised that and stopped putting Scotland down!

66

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 08:47:30

#68 I support Trident and have no problems with nuclear weapons.

I find the SNP's decision to take Scotland off the world stage and have virtually no defences incredibly alarming.

"An independent Scotland would have no such ambitions."

Exactly, it would just stick it's head in the sand and look to itself.

The world doesn't work that way.

67

Ex-pat observer,

03/09/2007 08:49:49

#75 - It is worth remembering that in general election after general election the Scots have given most of their votes to political parties that support the UK's independent nuclear deterrent. In the last general election, held just two years ago, they also gave the majority of their votes to parties that suported the invasion of Iraq. To see these two policies as having ben somehow inflicted on Scots just does not stand up to any kind of scrutiny.

68

Queen D,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 08:50:12

Brian Hill, should'nt mock the afflicted(but you did make me laugh!!)

69

Antonine Plato,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 08:50:35

http://platosway.blogspot.com

I'd be well surprised if the rebrand had only cost the tax payer £100k! More money aimed at solving the real problems in society, i'm so glad we've been allowed to look after our own affairs...

70

Edward,

03/09/2007 08:50:46

#76 Non political(NOT REALLY)
Give us a break
Its selfish parents like you that have caused the schools in Edinburgh to be in a shambolic mess!!
There are schools that are half empty and other schools that are too full. THere are schools that claim to be over the 60% threshhold, but contain at least 42 to 62 % from outside the catchment area
Perhaps if parents sent there children to the school that was in there own catchment area, instead of driving them to one thats outside there own area, the schools wouldnt be in such a mess!

71

Edward,

03/09/2007 08:52:51

#80 W U Merchant, Aberdeen
Why do you say its a waste of money, apart from the usual inuendo that you come from Aberdeen!
The Scottish people are getting better.
Scotland has a Government, what is wrong with that?

72

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 08:52:55

#77 I don't mss the point, titles mean nothing - actions do - it could be called the "Just a bunch of folks with all the power" and it wouldn't make a difference if they did a good job.

But this rebranding just emphasises the view held by many that all Salmond wants to do is push independence and endulge in self engrandisement.

73

Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 08:53:17

As we trudge our weary way to work this morning, the vast majority couldn't care less about the change of title from Scottish Executive to Scottish Government.
We live in a democracy and, love 'em or hate 'em, the Nationalists are in power at Holyrood.
As Unionists, I suppose many of us hope the SNP balloon will burst and they will simply disappear like "snaw aff a dyke" but in truth, whether we like it or not, this political party is here to stay!
After Kier Hardie founded the Independent Labour Party the arrogant Liberal and Tory patrician politicians of that era scoffed at the possibility of Labour ever becoming a mainstream political party?
Well, Unionists have made the same mistake with the SNP.
Like the vast majority of the Scottish population, IF you had told me 30 years ago that some day Scotland would have its own devolved parliament with a Nationalist government in power
then I too would have never believed such an outcome!
It is now reality although the SNP tenure at Holyrood will in all probability be lucky to last more than a year or two at most but as long as they are here they are our devolved government just like the Labour/Lib-Dem coalition last time round!

74

,

03/09/2007 08:56:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 930690, Article id was mapped to record!
75

Sassenach Observer,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 08:57:58

I think Westminster ought to legislate on a school uniform for the Scottish whatever we are going to call it now.
That way Mr Salmond would be able to show his opposition to the Union at very little cost to the taxpayer simply by having a huge knot in his tie and very little hanging down, not tucking his shirt in, and perhaps wearing tartan socks instead of grey ones.

76

Riley Hamish,

EDINBURGH 03/09/2007 09:04:30

#2 JALOPENO.......the Brainless Adonis of Scotland

Whit a nasty wee mean-spirited jobby you are sir........and rapidly becoming a joke figure on these posts. Crawl back under yer stone in the swamp you call home !!

77

,

03/09/2007 09:10:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 930718, Article id was mapped to record!
78

Edward,

03/09/2007 09:10:23

#87 Jalepeno
Apart from your tirade, do you actually have anything constructive to say, or do you just get your kicks by putting others down?
Just to correct you
*Independence is a countries inaliable right, which is why Ireland became independent, why India became independent, or do you think they made a 'teenage' mistake and want to be part of Britain again?
*The Scottish Government was proposed by Scottish Labour in 2001 and also by the Libdems later, it is also supported by Wendy Alexander presently. So why do you put the SNP down, because there doing it
*The term Government is used by all provinces in Canada, States in Australia and all the German Lande, so what is wrong with Scotland using the same term?
Not really sure why you accused me of being thick or had a tirade, perhaps thats just to cover up your own disantvantages

79

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2007 09:11:33

I support a move to clamp down on heinous crimes such as rape, I deplore air guns and there is other reasons to be positive regarding the re-opening of parliament.

The re-branding issue is acceptable, there is nothing wrong with a name change from Scottish Executive to Scottish Government. However, the change from the Royal Coat of Arms to a Saltire is alarming.

Scotland as it exists today, exists as part of the union. That may change one day, highly unlikely, but it could happen. But until it does it is essential that we respect the union we are part of, therefore, the Royal Coat of Arms should remain.

But that aside, changing it to the Saltire is not exactly embracing all Scottish cultures in the modern era, is it?

80

Edward,

03/09/2007 09:12:36

#90 Jalepeno
Now we know that your incapable of reasoned thought, for some reason you somehow think that the SNP party has the same ideals as the BNP
You really should start getting out more and perhaps reading what the SNP stand for would also be a good start

81

Edward,

03/09/2007 09:14:00

#92 Media1
'changing it to the Saltire is not exactly embracing all Scottish cultures in the modern era, is it?'
Care to explain?

82

Gerry Rourke,

Ayr 03/09/2007 09:14:59

Vanity, thy name is Salmond.

83

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 09:19:38

#91 "Independence is a countries inaliable right"

Idealistic nonsense.

No rights are inalienable - they are given or taken.

In no way does any group of people have the automatic right to nationhood.

84

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 09:22:12

#94 Rejection of our crown for a forced seperatist agenda.

85

Doh,

03/09/2007 09:23:37

New session
New name
New labour

heard it all before

86

Gerry Rourke,

Ayr 03/09/2007 09:24:10

I suggest that the Auditor General Mr Robert Black be invited to verify the cost of this "rebranding".

87

Sassenach Observer,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 09:26:11

Might I point out that the Scottish Parliament building is situated within the boundaries of the ancient kingdom of Northumbria. Can we have it back please ?

PS You can keep the bits of bamboo cane.

88

howyoudoingboy;,

03/09/2007 09:27:23

#87Jalepeno

while believing 'jalepeno peppers are great for burgers yum...

your constant reference to excreta is becoming a cause for concern.
one can only speculate you have had difficulty at the 'ANAL' stage you seem to have developed into an 'Anal Explusive' type of personality.

There are any number of counselors available to help you.

89

morris,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 09:31:19

96 Dangerous thinking that!

Of course people have the right to freedom .Whether they are allowed to do so is another matter I agree,but there are rights recorded in United Nations agreements and are therfore enshrined in international law,Of course there are nations who think they are above the law such as the United States of Bushmerica or Great Blairistan.That does not mean they are justified ! Just arrogant!

90

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 03/09/2007 09:32:00

What's in a name?

Quite a lot! - anyone involved in marketing or communications will acknowledge that this rebranding is necessary given the groundswell in Scottishness which an active executive has caused.

My questions for the unionists is - is this good or bad? - that there is an increased sense of Scottishness.

Media 1?
Nick Byrne?

91

Miss H,

03/09/2007 09:32:26

99

You would need to take into account the cost of scrapping the best small country campaign.

They probably cancel each other out.

So we're no longer the best wee country in the whole wide world.

But we do have a government.

92

Miss H,

03/09/2007 09:34:58

Jalepeno has no underestanding of Scottish politics at all and nothing to say, so why doesn't everybody just ignore him and he will hopefully go away.

93

morris,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 09:37:02

100

Correct
The defeat of the Goddodin (if I recall correctly) established the Northumbrian capital as Edinburgh. Can we please have Northumbria back please ?
WE certainly want Berwick returned at least ,which has a Norse name(wick) ,is quarried from Scottish stone,has a Scottish Coat of Arms, stands at the mouth of a Scottish river and whose football team plays in the Scottish league .

Sounds pretty Scottish to me !

94

Jalepeno,

03/09/2007 09:37:45

#103 You say "Is there an increased sense of Scottishness"

Scottish Executive versus Scottish GOvernment

Well, let's examine the word that hasn't changed shall we?

Okay, that done perhaps we should change it to ... "Very Scottish Uber McGovernment"?

That sounds much more scottish.

95

howyoudoingboy;,

03/09/2007 09:37:48

#92Media 1

But are the Scottish Parliament changing their heading etc to the individual 'Saltire' so far they have not.

They have the 'Saltire' with the crown above signifying the dominant position of the head of state 'The Queen'

96

Miss H,

03/09/2007 09:42:30

78

OK we have established you are pro nuclear weapons.

So. Iraq? Good move?

97

I.M. Converted,

Highlands 03/09/2007 09:43:29

How refreshing it is to see a Scottish Government, led by true Scots, activley trying to fulfill their pre election promises. This is despite the newly formed Unionist Coalition Party's attempts to thwart and belittle the voters who elected the SNP.
According to the UCP, the majority of people in Scotland voted against Independance at the last election on the basis that more people did not vote SNP than those who did.
If this is basis for our political voting system now, should the Labour Governemnt be in power now as the accumulative vote of the UK for all other parties at the last (and every other) election is more than the the winning parties.
Keep it up SNP, people are responding and you are becoming more popular.
The Scottish Labour, Tory and LIBs are an embarassing joke, both at home and in the English Parliament.

98

Stephen101,

Ability to spell correctly 03/09/2007 09:44:00

Is there a relationship between an ability to spell and punctuate correctly and a desire to remain part of the Union?

When I read Jalepeno's postings I get the general gist of his grumpyness, but I dare not read it in detail otherwise I get very confused and my red pen comes out.

#58 Expat. Good to see a 'real' posting here that is a personal opinion and not the rehashing of the stance and posturing of a political party.

I think since Salmond moved into Bute House we are moving towards a more adult, and definitely more truthful, relationship with Westminster, but more significantly with English people. That is those who live in England AND Scotland. Being proud of your own roots and values does not mean you must attack the values of others who do not have your roots. It is called being grown up.

I will retain my prejudices for daft idiots like Jalepeno.

99

Miss H,

03/09/2007 09:45:05

79

It is worth you remembering that the majority of Scottish people oppose a new generation of nuclear weapons on the Clyde, a majority of MSPs are opposed to a new generation of nuclear weapons on the Clyde - and the majority of Scottish MPs voted in Westminster against a new generation of nuclear weapons on the Clyde.

This is a very clear cut issue.

Nuclear weapons are opposed by the majority of people in Scotland.

The only way to guarantee that we get rid of them is to vote for independence.

100

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 09:45:33

#102 Dangerous maybe but I would say just realism.

Any rights we enjoy, we do so because we are allowed to or we are prepared to defend them.

If rights were so inalienable how come history is replete with those fighting and dying for them?

101

morris,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 09:46:46

106 You mean like we did with the Tory party?

102

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 09:47:14

Who is this Jalepeno with the cringe?

Scotland is moving inexorably to independence, this name change makes sense, get all the headed notepaper up to scratch, name recognition and brand is everything.

103

Miss H,

03/09/2007 09:48:29

Sassenach Observer

Do you realise how extremely patronising you are?

104

Gerry Rourke,

Ayr 03/09/2007 09:49:52

This morning's stinging and justified criticism of her paymasters has at long last jolted Miss H into action. Transparent or what?

105

Gerry Rourke,

Ayr 03/09/2007 09:51:14

116

Richard - crap.

106

Ex-pat observer,

03/09/2007 09:52:20

#113 - Not exactly. The new generation of nuclear weapons are opposed in Scotland. That is not the same as saying nuclear weapons per se are opposed by the people of Scotland, who have consistently given the majority of their votes in general elections to parties that support the UK's nuclear deterrent.

But the great thing about freedom is if the nuclear issue is so important to most Scots at the next general election they will be able to vote and do something about it. Just as they can vote for parties that support independence for Scotland. In this way Scots have the freedom to decide their futures, something which is denied hundreds of millions of people across the world.

Which was my original point in #45

107

morris,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 09:52:46

Transparent in the sense that its very clear what she means . Cant say the same for you however.

108

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 09:53:42

#110 Had it been done properly, yes as it stands though we should withdraw.

If we look at it as a forced regime change, yes I would support that, as I would in Zimbabwe.

We should have gone in, pacified the area and then left within six months while the locals liked us. But because the Americans disbanded the Iraqi army choas ensued and lives tragically have been lost but such if life in the forces.

I believe we should now pullout as it seems like a losing battle, but I am not opposed to UK forces taking part in "policing" where necessary.

I can look beyond our borders.

109

Gerry Rourke,

Ayr 03/09/2007 09:55:40

121

Morris, your posts suggest that you are a minor. What are you doing out of school?

110

Magic Hoops 2,

03/09/2007 09:56:53

#80 W U Merchant

"Another SNP waste of money. The Scottish people deserve better"

Can you think of any other party that would be "better"???

111

Hebb,

Scotia 03/09/2007 09:57:55

#71 Teamdroid

Don't worry, no doubt there'll be a few more fascinatingly hollow SNP "scandal" stories in SOS and the rest of the unionist press (i.e. all of them) over the coming months and years.

After all, necessity is the mother of invention and the unionist parties and their numerous media gofers are in desperate need of something, anything, to make the SNP look bad in the eyes of the electorate.

The forever cringing North Brits among our fourth estate have got their work cut out but I'm sure they'll do their dishonourable best.

112

morris,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 10:00:49

120

Because Scots have debated whether its better to be conned by a Tory Government or by a Labour Government (and some debate whether its neccessary to be conned at all of course), does NOT mean we favour a nuclear anything,just as it does NOT give an unambiguos declaraton of support for independence ,(or otherwise).Both can only be measured by referenda,and that will only happen when the Unionists know they will get the result they want,or be forced into conceding that what the people think ,is not the preserve of the Labour party.
Democrcay is not something you can debate in terms of quantity or quality .Either it exists or it does not!

113

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 10:01:24

#85

"But this rebranding just emphasises the view held by many that all Salmond wants to do is push independence and endulge in self engrandisement"

For god sake and the unionists go on about the SNP being obsessed with Independance. All we hear from the unionist nowadays is Independence blah blah blah.....whos's the more obsessed???

114

morris,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 10:04:15

116

Your eloquence speaks volumes sir!

115

donal mcdonald,

Fife 03/09/2007 10:06:34

#116Richard,

"get all the headed notepaper up to scratch, name recognition and brand is everything."

Does make it seem somewhat superficial compared to 'Birth of a Nation' and all that.

I am sure that wasn't your intention. But then I'm Old

#126 peter

Good point a 'Gaelic' title would be more suitable.

116

connaughtboy,

03/09/2007 10:06:36

#10 Jock

The way I see it, "gradualist" independence can only lead to full independence.
The gradualist strategy is twofold. The first prong is slowly to remove the ties and symbols of the UK and replace them with distinctly Scottish ones (Saltire flag, Scottish Government rename etc). This could be described as superficial, but in reality it is extremely significant. The second prong is to secure increased devolved powers for Holyrood.

Make no mistake, over the next 4 years this will have softened up enough Scots to ensure that a referendum on independence will be won easily.

I can't see any way that the Unionists can prevent it.

117

morris,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 10:06:58

129

I assume that you have a crystal ball and can tell the sex of every contributor then,in fact their true identity ?

Maybe you are the one being played !Maybe I am a woman !

118

T. MacIntosh,

Toronto 03/09/2007 10:07:44

The published agenda is well balanced and workable.We done again government of Scotland.

119

Jocko,

guildford 03/09/2007 10:11:07

The term 'Scottish Executive' is just a classic Pomeranian example of poncyness. Just say it with a posh English or Edinburgh accent.
The 'First Minister' is another example of that attitude and should be replaced by the Australian State term 'Premier'.

120

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 10:12:35

#132 I can't see any way that the Unionists can prevent it.

Well, they could slaughter all pro independents - but
I'm guessing you are referring to things within the realms of reality.

121

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 10:16:29

So what new powers can the Scottish government expect unionists, what will "devolution max" look like?

122

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 10:17:22

#139 A sort of greyish blob with crinkled edges.

123

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 10:17:22

For all those who oppose the idea of it being named a Scottish Government wouldnt be saying that if it was Labour or the Tories who changed it as they have links to their counterparts down south.

In that case why should we have Scottish Labour and Scottish Tories??

People need to tuck their bottom lip back in!!

124

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 10:18:52

MacSprog

The way you are getting your knickers in a twist over this proves how effective it can be it certainly seems to be scaring the s*** out of you!
but all that aside you have made some very interesting points.

The SNP and Salmond are masters of empty gestures and populist politics. What of substance have they done since being elected that does not involve giving things away for free (our own money, thanks) ? What have they done to improve the economy, health care, transport, education ???? All they do is wind up the sad nats who get a huge thrill over things like changing signs on buildings. Probably the same people scrawling sad Nat slogans on buildings around Edinburgh in chalk.

You are implying that the SNP have actually ignored the day to day business of running the country and have done nothing else but make gestures yet we are still going about our daily business and nothing calamatous has happened. Does this mean we dont actually need any kind of government at all? does this mean we can actually go about our lives without any administration or parliament existing?
Or are you just posting s****? I think the latter.

But I liked yer statement at 10 best.

So all this w--king by the SNP does nothing, it just wastes time and money that would be better channeled into making Scotland more successful and less of a basket case in almost every category. Get on with governing Holyrood people and stop the populist pretendy politics.

After 300 years of prospering within the Union you think we are a basket case in every category no less so why do you support the Union? do you like living in a basket?

Populist pretendy politics? I love that I mean god forbid a political party should ever do anything popular with the voters. You and yer ilk actually believe its not good to run a country if its population actually benefits from government policy. You actually think that if a government does something beneficial then it m

125

Geoff,

Sunny South Africa 03/09/2007 10:20:56

OK,HERE IS A CHALLENGE!

I have repeatedly asked including to Morris on several occassions,Miss H today etc the following question:

Do you think the West should abandon its nuclear deterrent unilaterally? Neither Morris nor Miss H have been willing or able to answer me. The question has relevance to the SNP's policy in general. Is there any SNP person on this forum who opposes Scotlands share in nuclear weapons willing or able to answer this question.
Thank you in anticipation.

126

FireBurn,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 10:23:57

I think the rebrand is a good thing

Ask most people on the street and they will have no idea what the Executive was or did.

Most people I've talked about this with get confused between the Executive and the Parliament with some not realising there was a difference.

127

d.j.,

03/09/2007 10:24:30

Can someone please explain why the the signs are not Bi-lingual Gaelic-English and not just English only?

128

morris,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 10:24:31

138 Maybe I am Mish H !
I am not naive,Im just not daft enough to presume I know something which I clearly do not . How do you know which version is correct? The answer is YOU DONT!

You presume that she is a man who has pretended to be a woman,maybe its the other way round.The only person who knows is Miss?Mr H.

129

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 10:29:18

#143 Geoff

I will have a go at answering you. I do oppose Scotlands share in nuclear weapons as i like the view of many others do not see the need for such weapons.

If Scotland wants to defend itself while Independent without Trident then i suggest she builds up her army to a reasonable amount (bring back scottish regiments) and become one of the leading contenders as one of the most technologically advanced armies in the world. We have the resources, we have the abilities electronically, we have the universities and STILL have the ability to churn out revolutionary inventors.

I think this coupled in with a very strategically placed missile defence system would be enough for Scotland to defend itself....without Trident

130

FireBurn,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 10:29:28

I'd also like to say that I don't think there is a need to rename the role of First Minister to anything else.

People know what it is, does and represents.

I also think the Scottish Government Building is a fine piece of architecture and looks a whole lot better than the Parliament its self and has no twigs covering the windows.

131

morris,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 10:30:43

143

I have answered you on numerous occasions! What I have not done is give you the answer you would like me to!

I wish the removal of nuclear weapons from an independent Scotland,(which is the only way I will get them out of Scotland).
What other countries do is their affair. Plain and simple as that. I DO NOT INTERFERE in the affairs of other nations unless they threaten me .At the moment I see no need for Scotland to have these weapons.If England wants them thats her right . Theres nothing inconsistent with that.

132

morris,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 10:37:51

148

IM not disputing this, Im making the point that when you claim two things it does not automatically follow that the latter is the correct version!It is more likely though I agree.

You DONT KNOW any more than I do (assuming I am not Miss H of course)
Maybe she/I am a woman and then pretended to be a man !
Maybe im so lacking in femininty people think I am a man .
I take your point,and the probability is in your favour,but the facts are unknown.Exactly what I said from the beginning I believe?

WE DINNAE KEN!

133

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 10:38:55

#152 WUM

"Alex Salmond is 100% correct - this is all about identity - his identity"

talking pish....its Scotlands identity. Stop trying to spread views that its all about him. Think you should be more concerned about the Unions identity

134

Miss H,

03/09/2007 10:39:27

148

Get it right.

I am actually a pre operative transsexual and I get paid in shiny buttons.

135

Navvy,

03/09/2007 10:39:36

#22 not a bad idea being the third first minister must be confusing

136

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 10:40:19

#155 Miss H

:-D

137

Baillie Guthrie,

03/09/2007 10:40:30

The Scots Government building? Scottish?

It has a missile silo already I see.

138

Carrick,

03/09/2007 10:41:04

Mr Salmond can call the offices in Edinburgh anything he likes and change the flag to the Saltire but Scotland is still part of the Union.
Concerns are being aired that the SNP may attempt to twist figures even if a referendum is held to as to whether the Scots people want Independence.

The real fact is the majority of Scots DO NOT want Independence according to a poll done by TNS System Three and announced in the Sunday Herald.

The question being asked is Independence from what? If, as he intends, he achieves his objectives, where does he think the regulations and control of our laws are going to come from? Nothing will alter, he can try bargaining, but EU diktats will ensure any Scottish Government will be quickly brought to heel, no doubt with the promise of a little more money in the early days, something the Scots will pay dearly for in the long run.

One of the principal examples frequently wheeled out by the SNP is Norway. A country flush with success after investments from the profits of oil have given the Norse people a much better quality of life. What Alex Salmond fails to realise when his party makes comments of their eagerness to become part of the EU is that Norway is not a member of the European Union. Norway has held referendum on the issue of EU membership twice, first in 1972 and then again in 1994. On both occasions, a rather narrow majority of the Norwegian population rejected membership (in 1994, 52% were against and 48% were in favour). It has two agreements with the EU, one is European Economic Area and European Free Trade Agreement and these allow many of the benefits of trading freely without the compromise of their Sovereignty. Not a good example for the SNP to list.

139

Non political,

Stockbridge Primary (full and popular) 03/09/2007 10:41:42

83. Edward

Thanks for your homespun words of wisdom.

The fact that you keep repeating the same nonsense no matter how often you are "declared a TKO" (technical Knock out), suggests that you are one of those creepy "nationalism no matter the cost" types renowned for making whole areas of the world nasty places to be.

However because of your persistence I won't take the easy way and just mock you I will address you point by point and will "expect" a decent quality of comeback from you.

Does that make sense to you Edward?

Here we go:

"Its selfish parents like you that have caused the schools in Edinburgh to be in a shambolic mess!!"

If by selfish you mean being unwilling to let our children suffer because of an inexperienced/duped/whatever's politicians error then, yes that is selfish. If however you are using some other definition of the word then you are just attempting to belittle parents as a whole for caring about their children’s, that’s pretty classy!

WRT the "shambolic mess" you are referring to I assume from the rest of your post (and ALL of your other posts) that you are referring to out of catchment parents selfishly trying to squeeze a decent education out of the state sector. I will address that in a moment. DO keep up Edward!


"There are schools that are half empty and other schools that are too full. THere are schools that claim to be over the 60% threshold, but contain at least 42 to 62 % from outside the catchment area"

This subject has been gone over (and over and over) at some length in previous postings in response to you (and some others, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE). But for you I will go over it again. Do take notes and please ask questions if there is any concepts that confuse you.

I have never addressed the issue of "half empty" schools, simply because it is NOT my place to, please address any questio

140

Non political,

Stockbridge Primary (full and popular) 03/09/2007 10:42:47

....existence is based on making Scotland a better place. I don’t think forcing parents to accept a dumbing down is what they really want and I would suggest that the position taken here by some of the “anti decent schools” posters here must be causing a bit of a collective cringe at SNP headquarters.

Finally:

“Perhaps if parents sent their children to the school that was in there own catchment area, instead of driving them to one that’s outside their own area, the schools wouldn’t be in such a mess!” (corrected the spelling and grammar for you. You are welcome)

Drivel from start to finish :

1. No parents should not be told “there is your school, Like it or lump it” or “If YOU don’t like it, why don’t YOU fix it” (I mean really!! What next “lets rely only on Neighbourhood watch’s if your area has a high crime rate”, what DO we pay for.
2. I know for a fact that OUR catchment area is a bit of a mess. (How far IS Saunders St from Stockbridge? look it up.) In our (and other schools cases) children ARE going to the nearest school.
3. The whole DRIVING thing is a pure fabrication wrt Stockbridge and I would INVITE anyone to come and count the children being dropped off by car. Sadly people like you Edward won’t be able to get a number that will strengthen your (weak) argument, but I guess you could just make up a number, or pretend that the point was never addressed and repeat this drivel elsewhere.
4. The Schools are not actually in a “mess” at least not Stockbridge (well maintained, excellent discipline, good results etc) and I am quite sure that the other schools could “put you right” on that score also.

Did I miss anything, please come up with better arguments in future.


That WAS a long one.

141

Miss H,

03/09/2007 10:44:25

143

Morris has answered you and I would answer the same way.

Most western countries do not have nuclear weapons. Those who do have made a choice which they have the right to make.

142

Non political,

Stockbridge Primary (full and popular) 03/09/2007 10:45:29

84. Edward

Whats wrong with it is that our government appears to have a guerrilla mentality wrt its people.

It can't seriously expect Edinburgh parents to forgive them if they screw us, no matter how "lofty" the cause.

143

Navvy,

03/09/2007 10:45:58

"Executive" always smaked of a sop to a lowly, illeducated minion in place of a pay increase or some responsibility. A dumb moniker akin to refuse collection operative. time will tell mebbe they will learn to govern

144

english nabob,

03/09/2007 10:47:51

#145 Richard,

Because the overwhelming majority of the Scottish people can not speak or read their mother tongue(sadly). And would not understand what the signs said.

#149 Magic Hoops 2,

I'm sure the Islamic states when they acquire the nuclear bomb will feel very secure when they see the Nationalists Defence policy.

Schiltrons at the ready.....Islamic nuclear response.... Kapoom..bye bye Independent Scotland

145

Non political,

Stockbridge Primary (full and popular) 03/09/2007 10:49:15

91. Edward

Very convincing, perhaps it is unpatriotic of Edinburgh parents to not accept the "lot" the SNP choose to deal to us.

146

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 10:51:06

143

Aye of course we should what the hell are we going to do with nukes? whats the point of having nukes if we are never going to use them? If god forbid Scotland is ever attacked with nuclear weapons then its all over and its no going to make the slightest bit of difference to anybody in Scotland that we were able to fire nukes back cos we will all either be dead or dying.
Are they a deterent against conventional attack?
I dont believe so because of the same reason we would have to destroy our own country in order to drive out an invader.
Its a nonsense the only benefit to having nukes is to the arms industry.
Lets face 9/11 still happened in spite of the US having enough nukes to destroy the planet a hundred times over some deterent.

147

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 10:52:25

#149 become one of the leading contenders as one of the most technologically advanced armies in the world.

Are you serious?

THe UK has the second largest expenditure on military technology in the world. At present it has the Daring Class - the most advance warships in the world, a joint share in the JSF - the most advance VSTOL aircraft in the world, Chobholm armour - the most advanced tank in the world, the Astute class submarine - the most advanced hunter killer sub in the world.

An independent Scotland could match this how?

With the money 7 million tax payers provide all Scotland could hope to do is arm her forces with off the shelf equipment, which while would still be decent it would by no means be a world leader.

148

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 10:52:41

165

And why would an Islamic country want to nuke an Independent Scotland? when an Independent Scotland would have nothing to do with US UK warmongering?

149

qche,

Caracas 03/09/2007 10:54:02

This new Scottish Government Building is like a cock crowing over the Unionistas. They are on the run. They are cringing. They use bad language. They are good enemies but bad friends. Watch when they turn...and creep into your camp like hyenas in the night. Keep your Kalashnikovs cocked.

Viva Escocia! Viva el bandera Saltire

150

Scottish Toryboy is back,

03/09/2007 10:54:10

I would take issue on education and health. Surely top priority should be to provide more funding for the universities (so that they can compete with institutions down south) rather than to help students financially. Also, there are surely more important priorities for the health service than waiting lists - we've all heard the stories about how other priorities are put on the back burner, merely so that someone's non urgent foot operation can be attended to.


Scottish Government: is this more fudging of independence? Take it from me, people will start to think that independence has already happened when the SNP start referring to the "Scottish Governement". Is the SNP the "stupid party" or are they being extremely clever in their fudging of independence? As I always say, I am fully behind the unionist cause, but unlike Labour supporters I'm not here to lecture people on its benefits (and by the looks of it, the SNP leadership don't have a hugely different position to me!)

151

FireBurn,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 10:56:49

#143

Technically everyone should be disarming anyway or at least that's what I thought the Neuclear Proliferation Act was supposed to do.

#147

I think that's a little instulting to the Scottish people. People do know what a government does or at least they have expectations of what a government should do.

152

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 03/09/2007 10:58:24

Labour are insisting that abolishing the council tax would be inefficient and less fair. What does that statement mean ? It will be less fair to whom ?At present the council tax is obscenely unfair to the lower paid earners for this country, while the people of more affluent means, whether honest, or dishonestly earned, are subsidised to a grotesquely unfair share. Ive often heard those affluent people being the pillars of society. In reality those people, they go to church on a Sunday drive up in expensive cars one trying to go one better than the other, then they go into their place of worship forgetting they've gave some of the poorer people a hard time during the working week with all sorts of demands. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know the demands like repossessing houses, or buying repossessed houses, suing people who have fallen on hard times, the very same people who subsidise them in council tax. Why do those greedy wealthy types go Sunday services, when they must know that they will be judged by a greater power than them, whom I am sure will see their worldly power and greed in an other light. Yes by every means possible abolish the obscenity of council tax and make up for the years of subsidy, by taxing the wealthy, through the nose.

153

HKLad,

Hong Kong 03/09/2007 10:59:21

Nuclear weapons - relevance please to democracy and freedom.

An independent Scotland and its people can decide either way.

154

Miss H,

03/09/2007 10:59:48

120

You are splitting hairs there. The UK's nuclear weapons programme is coming up for replacement. Those who oppose that replacement oppose nuclear weapons in Scotlland.

Perhaps you missed the point I made about having the freedom to take our own decisions. You said that the Scots have the opportunity at the next general election to vote and do something about nuclear weapons in Scotland.

They don't need to wait. A clear majority of both the MSPs and MPs elected have made clear their opposition to new nuclear weapons being stationed on the Clyde. If we were actually free to determine policy in this regard that would be the end of the matter. Scotland would refuse to have new nuclear weapons on the Clyde, end of story.

But that is not the end of the story, is it? Because freedom is not simply the power to adopt a policy on any particular issue - it is about having the power to implement that policy and that is what the Scottish Parliament lacks.

155

english nabob,

03/09/2007 11:02:18

#169Honest Jock

'The Caliphate'

156

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 11:02:22

#165 English nae boaby

You obviously didnt read my post correctly. Id like to refer you in particular to the last pasrt of my post...ahem


"I think this coupled in with a very strategically placed missile defence system would be enough for Scotland to defend itself....without Trident"

doh !!.....anyway....if anyone has a better idea then go ahead post it....or are you scared it gets mocked also????

157

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 11:04:36

172 Tory Boy.

I would take issue on education and health. Surely top priority should be to provide more funding for the universities (so that they can compete with institutions down south) rather than to help students financially

How can a Unionist party in power in Scotland give priority to education and health within Scotland when they are controlled by their own party down South with their own priorites and agendas in England?
Dont you agree that the most effective way to give Scotland priority over every aspect of its infrastructure is to give it full control over its own affairs? then a Scottish administration can priorities whatever it wants and needs to.
Isnt that simple logic?
How can we complete with the South if the South gets to make all the decisions at national level?

158

Edward,

03/09/2007 11:05:39

#159 Carrick
'The real fact is the majority of Scots DO NOT want Independence'
I dont think 50% is a majority, its actually HALF!
by the same token 50% do not support the Union

159

Navvy,

03/09/2007 11:05:54

#58 Expat
Best post for a long time. England is full of first second and more generations of Scots. So few of our countrymen know its history.

I await the day when "England or English" is not dragged into a Scottish argument. If it comes then it may, just may, herald some national maturity

160

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 11:07:48

178 English nabob

The book of Revelations.

161

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 11:08:33

#168

Course im serious. Peoples opinions like you who are against anything about Scotland and have any faith or belief that your country "with a lot of hard work" can actually achieve this is unbelievable.

No wonder the countries in such a state when there seems to be an abundance in people like you who actually believe that this country can achieve nothing and therefore do not see the point in trying.

Get a grip man!!

162

HKLad,

Hong Kong 03/09/2007 11:09:49

#159
On the contrary is it not a good example? As clearly Norway can exist very well with either decision - in the EU or out.

163

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2007 11:13:31

#94 Edward:

The SALTIRE, is a great flag. But it is an old flag representative of ancient Scotland. Our new modern Scotland is ONE SCOTLAND, ONE CULTURE! Therefore, a new flag incorportating Scotland's Asian and other communities should be launched.

If independence is what we want, then ALL Scotland's people must be catered for. The Saltire does not do that! So whilst I am passionate about the flag itself, I would be more comfortable with a flag that represented all of our cultures.

Maybe Salmond will look into it, or maybe he will continue to see modern Scotland as an extension to the William Wallace era

164

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 11:14:02

#168

Plus how big an army do you think Scotland would need to supply?? Not as big as England i can tell you that. As long as we have enough to put up a decent fight with good Scottish pride then im all for it

165

morris,

03/09/2007 11:14:23

165

Its a very minor point,but if you refer to Gaelic,its maybe pertinent to observe that the Gaelic language and culture were introduced by the Scoti who were a very small numerically speaking trading
partywho settled and no doubt bred in Dalriada ,but they became the dominant culture and language of the Picts and other tribes.Scots gaelic is believed to be the relatively undiluted tongue of the earliest celts in Europe,and is as such not native to Scotland at all. Irish gaelic has been adapted/amended and does therefore have similarities ,and also words or expressions of its own I believe.
There is a popular misconception that Gaelic is a native language,and we are related strongly to Ireland.IN fact we are probably more likley to be of Strathclyde Briton (welsh) extraction.
UInless somebody knows otherwise ?

166

Carrick,

03/09/2007 11:16:28

#181
The report found 50% of those polled disagreeing with the proposition. A minority 35% agreed that a settlement should be negotiated, while 15% said they did not know.

This does not say 50% were in favour!
Only 35% were in favour of negotiations. This is the concern of many. Figures are twisted.

167

Miss H,

03/09/2007 11:17:54

187

Colin Fox made a similar point but received no support from the Asian community who said they were more than happy with the Saltire as Scotland's national flag.

168

Carrick,

03/09/2007 11:19:46

#185

Sorry, I should have added it was not a good example to list as a reason for being part of the EU, but a good example to remain outside it.

169

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 11:21:05

187 191

And the reason this wasnt suggested with the Union Jack is what?

170

Edward,

03/09/2007 11:21:36

#160 Non Political(but really a Labour stooge)
Try and answer clearly instead of twisting it around to suite your own agenda (which is Labour’s, we all know that)
You stated ‘If by selfish you mean being unwilling to let our children suffer because of an inexperienced/duped/whatever's politicians error then, yes that is selfish’, but the shambles was created long before the SNP/LibDems took over the administration of Edinburgh!, so you must be criticising the previous Labour administration!
The school closure program was actually started by Labour, except you kind of ignore that salient fact!
Your rambling tirade also ignores the fact that schools which have 80% or 90% pupil roll numbers are actually made up with over 60% from outside the catchment area, something that you constantly ignore and never answer!
If the previous Labour administration under Ewan Aitken had did there job properly , the schools would not be in this mess. Such as reducing class sizes in overcrowded schools, such as putting a stop to parents placing there children in schools outside there catchment area, such as closing the schools they planned to last year, because there were less than half the number of pupils. The last was put off as Labour knew with an election coming they would be unpopular, but sometimes the right choice is an unpopular choice, but the council have to choose for ALL of the people of Edinburgh , not just a few parents who want to buck the system!
‘Not very nice and as you are evidently a staunch supporter of the SNP’ Actually I’m not, never have been, I have been a life long supporter of Labour, but believe in a fairer society as well as believing in a Scotland that could be Independent

171

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 11:21:36

#187 Media 1

"Therefore, a new flag incorportating Scotland's Asian and other communities should be launched"

Yeah if we were in a "Union" with any of the said countries. How does the Saltire not cater for ALL of Scotland whether they be Asian, Chinese or Red Indian???

Your view of the Saltire as a symbol of one race is as naive as your Unionism. All the Saltire states is "This Is Scotland" and for that as the old saying goes "We are all Jock Tamsons bairns"

We do not need a new flag to let different culture communities in Scotland know they are part of and play an important in the role of todays modern Scotland.

Dont you think changing the flag for that is just a little too much PC???

172

Geoff,

Sunny South Africa 03/09/2007 11:25:02

149 Thank you for your reply
151 Morris-you havent really answered my question.
179-relevance.

OK-here goes-Nobody has given me a straight answer,so I will answer as follows for you:

Do you think the West should unilaterally abandon its nuclear weapons? If you answer YES then you are happy to face a nuclear armed Russia,China,North Korea,Iran(?) etc with no means to defend yourself! I would respectfully say that only a complete lunatic would advocate such a policy. If you say NO but still insist on Scotland unilaterally abandoning its share of the British Nuclear Detterent, then it can only mean that you are happy to live under the nuclear umbrella of the rest of the UK and France and The USA. Kinda hard for me to reconcile the hypocrisy of such a policy. The RELEVANCE is that if every western nation was
to follow Scotlands lead, then we wud be left to the mercy of the mad mullahs et al. An insane and immoral policy in which the flower power SNP want to take Scotland to Cloud Cuckoo land rather than face the REAL world in which we live!


My point is as

173

Edward,

03/09/2007 11:25:27

#187 Media1
Well your just going to have to accept that the Saltire does represent all faiths and cultures in Scotland always has and always will
Scotland does not need a new flag, we are ALL happy with the Scottish Flag as it is. Pity your in Cape Town, you may appreciate it better if you lived more in Scotland

174

FireBurn,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 11:26:02

#187 Media 1

I do not see why the Saltire cannot represent one scotland many cultures. It is an old flag steeped in tradition but it certainly doesn't mean it's past it's time.

I think a good example of this is the Stars and Stripes. It doesn't include any imagery from any of the cultures it represents. The flag simply represents ALL the cultures who identify as American.

In the same way I see the Saltire representing everyone who identifys themselves as being Scottish.

175

Baillie Guthrie,

03/09/2007 11:28:17

Media 1 About the Saltire with Muslim bit on it.

Really you are so daft I am beginning to like you.

If everybody wanted to meddle with national flags because of a few settlers, half the flags (including your own) in the world would need a wee saltire incorporated in them.

176

english nabob,

03/09/2007 11:31:13

#179 Magic Hoops 2

"I think this coupled in with a very strategically placed missile defence system would be enough for Scotland to defend itself....without Trident"


That's known as 'Magical Thinking' you keep to it. It will protect you till the end.

Aside from the fact the S.N.P policy is 'NOT' to have a standing Army.Air Force or Navy as Scotland co
could not afford them under the S.N.P Governance.


#189 morris


(welsh) extraction. Same as me then don't believe you will get much support from the Gaelic Scots with your Theory..Best of luck though brother Gael

#183Honest Jock,

KABOOM...

177

FireBurn,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 11:33:47

#196 Geoff

Yes I think unilatterally the whole of the Plannet should get rid of it's Neuclear Weapons or "deterrents". We have plenty of other weapons we could use on other countys if ever necessary.

Also if someone ever did use neuclear weapons on us would it matter much if we fired back or not on the country of origin? Chances are such a strike would come from a rougue, undemocratic state. Should the people of such a state suffer because their leaders decided to attack us?

178

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 11:34:03

196

see 167. Also what happens when we become enemies to the US? would you still be happy they have nukes?

179

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2007 11:35:28

#198 Fireburn:

I hear you, the stars and stripes has not changed, nor should it.

But if America had been a colony of Britain up until the year 2000, you would see them change the flag in their NEW democracy.

South Africa did it, and the old flag had nothing to do with apartheid. Many other nations have done it as well, its a new flag for a new democracy.

180

FireBurn,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 11:35:35

Oh and appologys for my spelling today I'm at work using IE6 rather than firefox with it's spellchecker.

181

Alberto.,

03/09/2007 11:36:56

In the run-up to the election to achieve control, the SNP daily repeated 'It's Time!'

Well, the time is here and now, and you've only got four years of it, or less - for now, so don't waste any of it (or our money!) on such irrelevancies as this silly egotistical name changing idea!

Time is the most valuable asset you have at present - don’t squander it!

You are already faced with a fellow (dare I say it!) Countryman down in sunny Westminster who seems to be ‘hell bent’ on defeating your plans - that would seem to be a right battle for you already to be focusing your concentration!

If you can prove that 'Governing' is your forte, which still remains to be seen, and proved, all well and good - if you fail, then it will not matter two hoots what you call yourselves, everyone will have an appropriate name for you - its standard procedure in politics, as you should know!

Just get on with the mountainous task in front of you and prove your worth - it’s your first chance to do so, and it may also be your last!

Success for Scotland and its inhabitants is required - not excuses for failure, so get stuck right in, forget ‘ego’ (for / of anybody) make success your prime and only target - anything less is worthless!

Good Luck - hopefully your endeavours will succeed where, so far, others have failed at enormous expense!

182

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 11:40:12

Geoff

What if we are attacked by the breaking of the fourth protocol? if somebody unknown were to detonate nukes in Scotland rather than launch them? who do we retaliate against?
There simply is no defence against nukes and retaliation is no comfort to the dead.

183

connaughtboy,

03/09/2007 11:42:59

#143 Geoff said:

"I have repeatedly asked including to Morris on several occassions,Miss H today etc the following question:

Do you think the West should abandon its nuclear deterrent unilaterally? Neither Morris nor Miss H have been willing or able to answer me. The question has relevance to the SNP's policy in general. Is there any SNP person on this forum who opposes Scotlands share in nuclear weapons willing or able to answer this question.
Thank you in anticipation."

Maybe I can answer your questions:

"Do you think the West should abandon its nuclear deterrent unilaterally?" No.

"Is there any SNP person on this forum who opposes Scotlands share in nuclear weapons" Yes, I do.

Hope this helps.

184

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 11:46:54

#201. Well if you like Nuclear Weapons thats your problem. At the end of the day until the government decides otherwise they are hear to stay....and yes maybe the reality that we live in should state that we obtain them

But look at the other posts...9/11?? fat lot of good nukes did then....Scotlands a small country

a) who would want to nuke it

and

b) if anyone did everyones a goner anyway (well maybe not the highlands but the fallout would certainly catch up.

So you tell me what you think the best thing to do is, unless your scared of a mockery yourself and maybe you can prove to me how "Magical" your thinking is.

185

connaughtboy,

03/09/2007 11:48:58

#159 Carrick

By definition, a majority has to be more than 50%. So the Herald poll did not show a majority against independence.

186

Saoghal Beag,

03/09/2007 11:49:40

#165 english nae boab, since when was gaidhlig ever teh mother tongue of Scotland. It is fur pirts bit thir is muckle mair o us fowlk wha tak wur ain mither tongue.

As for scotland being invaded as soon as it kicjks out the nuclear missiles, we would first ahve to find invaders who would want the english as neighbours. We're quite safe.

Media 1, KISS, the saltire is fine, or where do you propose to stop, our ain flag covered with crescent moon, sickle, crosses (various versions required to satisfy all christian sects) star of david, tibetan lotus, irish shamrock, french baguette and german sausage? Silly silly silly argument.

187

Saoghal Beag,

03/09/2007 11:52:14

#201 english nabob, are you wendy's wee brother, i know things are quiet in teh scottish office.

188

Allan(handofgod137),

03/09/2007 11:52:38

Does anybody else here see a resemblence between Holyrood and Stoneybridge council?

189

Miss H,

03/09/2007 11:53:14

210

You are lying.

It causes problems when people come on telling silly lies. It makes debate more difficult.

Unless you can behave like an adult why bother getting involved at all?

190

Miss H,

03/09/2007 11:53:58

Sorry I didn;t mean 210 I meant 201!

191

Peeablo,

Brownistan 03/09/2007 11:54:33

#187 Media1

What was the point of that comment?

Is it in relation to the 'new' SA flag and what that represents.

The old SA flag could never be used due to the significance it possessed.

The Saltire has never been mared (unlike the Union Flag) with such negative connotations.

Please, get a grip :-)

192

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 11:55:10

#204 Media 1

Just because South Africa did it doesnt mean we all have to follow suit. Also your comment

"But if America had been a colony of Britain up until the year 2000, you would see them change the flag in their NEW democracy"

Obviously i would agree with that but i really cant think of any Immigrant/Settler who's Nation is a colony of Scotland therefore still defusing your argument as to why we should change the Saltire.

as #211 states...silly silly argument

193

Edward,

03/09/2007 11:58:52

#196 Geoff
Can you explain then, why countries such as Spain, Portugal, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Italy are happy and feel ok about not having there own Nuclear detterents, but Scotland should retain a share in Britains nuclear weapons?

194

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 12:00:25

201

Kaboom? wouldnt that be the effect of a nuclear power station going critical?

195

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2007 12:06:32

The Union Flag is not oppressive, nor is it a flag that insults Scotland. It is a flag that represents Scotland, promotes Scotland and praises Scotland, yet many feel that it should not represent Scotland in any way.

Is it not then fair to suggest that the Saltire does not promote or represent ALL the cultures in modern day Scotland?

Are we saying its fine to change unions and flags as long as it suits some but not others?

Whilst you may find this issue a nonsense, it will rear its ugly head should Scotland become independent one day.

196

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 12:10:36

#221 Media 1

Please please please stop talking pish!! this for example

"yet many feel that it should not represent Scotland in any way."

haha sidesplitting stuff. Show me one thing that suggests that that is true apart from pure speculation

197

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 12:12:58

Media 1, cape town

"Whilst you may find this issue a nonsense, it will rear its ugly head should Scotland become independent one day".

Only in the minds of the intellectually challenged!

198

westview,

Renfrewshire 03/09/2007 12:14:04

In my town square ,three flags are flying every day. The European Union flag, the British Union flag and the Scots saltire. In that order. Would it not be best to put the saltire in the central position , now we have a Scots Government?

199

english nabob,

03/09/2007 12:14:26

#216 Miss H
Were was the lie? Tell us the size and composition of the Armed Forces the S.N.P propose.

The Scottish Defense Force doesn't make up for fully Armed Service. Which we have at the present time.
I suspect your Vitriol stems from the fact of the Inability of the S.N.P to answer any concerns on the Defense of an Independent Scotland

Oh it was the 'English' that got to you.....I see.

200

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 03/09/2007 12:15:11

"21. a proud doonhamer / 2:15am 3 Sep 2007

I am putting this information in honour of our good unionist friend, AM2. I know this will drive him around the bend.

Another poll has come out for the upcoming Westminster elections, whenever they are called. This one was done by COMRES, a member of the British Polling Council and shows Labour and Tories neck and neck.

The Scotland numbers, although a small sample with a large margin of error ( I thought I would save AM2 the time) shows the continuing trend."

You are not kidding that it is a small sample - 89 people polled in Scotland - to try and get any sort of trend from those figures is a joke and you know it.

201

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 03/09/2007 12:19:45

I don't see the point of spending £100,000 on a re-branding exercise.

I don't particularly care what they call themselves as long as they are getting the job done.

Why not just use the term Scottish Government in all press releases and future publications at no extra cost?

Or is this really a case of the taxpayer paying for party political propoganda?

202

Andrew Wilson,

Dundee, UK 03/09/2007 12:21:00

To all the people who are saying that this is more than a name change.

Scotland has far too many ties to the rest of the UK. It would be one of the messiest divorces in history.

From a business point of view, businesses that traded in the UK would suddenly find themselves being a multi-national having to employ extra lawyers/administrators and all the costs that would involve.

From a personal point of view (and this will be the same for most others), my family is all over the UK. Will I need a new Scottish Passport to visit them (how much will that cost?)

Will the Scottish Pound become a new currency? If so, we will have to trade on the international markets on our own. If not, then we are just as tied to the rest of the UK as we ever were. If we join the Euro then we will be just as tied to the EU as we were to the UK.

I could go on and on ...

203

Pollock Bain,

03/09/2007 12:26:26

New terminology for a new government
First minister - Heid Bummer
Ministers - High Heid Yins
MSPs - Hied Yins

Lots of other thoughts, but I won't bore you with them. On a more serious note, I think it's a pity the Civil Servants are not called the Scottish Executive, and the ministers in charge of them The Scottish Governement. That would have meaning and resonance, and would not have necessitated the farce of an undistinguished office block in Leith bearing the legend Scottish Government.

204

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 12:28:01

221

How does the Union flag represent Wales?

The Union Flag is not oppressive, nor is it a flag that insults Scotland. It is a flag that represents Scotland, promotes Scotland and praises Scotland, yet many feel that it should not represent Scotland in any way.

Is it not then fair to suggest that the Saltire does not promote or represent ALL the cultures in modern day Scotland?

Where is the logic to tie in both of these statements?
and how does the Union Jack represent the Eastern Europeans, the Africans, the Asians in our society?
I think you are just being a troll and stirring the shit now a bit too much like AM2.

205

The laird.,

leadhills. 03/09/2007 12:32:42

ref;- trident on the clyde,
why do you think that hen broon the english football team supporter put that other clown des numpty broon as the secretery of state for scotland that was to ensure that trident would stay on the clyde including the 5 million pounds police bill for protecting it and the pea brain unionists are worried about a 100k rebrand name this fake dressed up as a labour M/P is proven to be an incompetant idiot and the labour suporters in kilmarnock and loudon for foistering this incompitent individual to be a representative for scotland the constituency is owing the people of scotland an appoligy as scotland does not deserve him.

206

MtnKat,

03/09/2007 12:33:59

#39 A true Englishman

"The average Englishman in the home he calls his castle, slips into his national costume - a shabby raincoat - patented by chemist Charles MacIntosh from Glasgow, Scotland.
Enroute to his office he strides along the English lane surfaced by John Macadam of Ayr, Scotland.
He drives his English car fitted with tyres invented by John Boyd Dunlop, a Veterinary Surgeon of Dregholm,Scotland.
At the office he receives the mail bearing adhesive stamps invented by John Chalmers, Bookseller and Printer of Dundee, Scotland.
During the day he uses the telephone invented by Alexander Graham Bell, born in Edinburgh, Scotland.
At home in the evening, his daughter pedals her bicycle invented by Kirkpatrick Macmillan, Blacksmith of Thornhill, Dunfriesshire, Scotland.
He watches the news on television, an invention of John Logie Baird of Helensburgh, Scotland, and hears an item about the U.S. Navy, founded by John Paul Jones of Kirkbean, Scotland.
Nowhere can an Englishman turn to escape the ingenuity of the Sots.
He has now been reminded too much of Scotland and in deperation he picks up the Bible, only to find that the first man mentioned in the good book is a Scot - King James- who authorized the translation.
He could take a drink, but the scots make the best in the world.
He could take a rifle and end it all, but the brecch-loading rifle was invented by Captain Patrick Ferguson of Pitfours, Scotland.
If he escaped death he could find himself on the operating tableinjected with Penicillin, discovered by Sir Alexander Fleming of Darvel, Scotland and given Chloroform, an anaesthetic discovered by Sir James Young Simpson. OB GYN of Bathgate, Scotland.
Out of the anaesthetic he would find no comfort in learning that he was as safe as The Bank of England, founded by William Patterson of Dumfries, Scotland.
Perhaps his only remaining hope would be to get a transfusion of good Scottiish b

207

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 12:38:26

228

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just posting this pish for a laugh and not deride you for the idiot that would actually take this pish seriously.

Scotland has far too many ties to the rest of the UK. It would be one of the messiest divorces in history.

Messier than a civil war or a war on independence ie the US? the boer war? the struggle for India's independence resulting in Pakistan and Bangladesh?
or the Irish war of independence?

From a business point of view, businesses that traded in the UK would suddenly find themselves being a multi-national having to employ extra lawyers/administrators and all the costs that would involve.

These business are not already multi national? with branches in Europe, the US, Asia, Antipedes etc etc.

From a personal point of view (and this will be the same for most others), my family is all over the UK. Will I need a new Scottish Passport to visit them (how much will that cost?)

You could if you want me I would just catch a train or a bus or even get on a plane.

Will the Scottish Pound become a new currency? If so, we will have to trade on the international markets on our own. If not, then we are just as tied to the rest of the UK as we ever were. If we join the Euro then we will be just as tied to the EU as we were to the UK.

I hope so and yes why not trade on the international market thats what its there for.
And if we choose to keep the pound how will that tie us to the UK? is Germany tied to France via the euro?

you could go on and on? is that because of the medication?

208

Saoghal Beag,

03/09/2007 12:49:19

#39 A true englishman, haway and morris dance yirsel, ya BNP voting numptie with nae parliment tae call yir own, not Scotland's fault.

209

King Doug,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 12:49:48

Gosh, how UTTERLY predictable. I actually came on here after seeing the story elsewhere PURELY to make sure I was right that 1) Laboural Democrats and the Tories would be saying it was a waste of money, even though it's been pretty obvious since day 1 that Scottish Executive was a stupid name that sounded more like a business or a quango than the political administrators of Scotland, and 2) the comments would be full of the usual suspects saying it's a waste of money, even though they probably had no idea what the Scottish Executive was for a start either. Nice to see I was 100% correct.

My sister, who doesn't have a massive interest in politics - although she still takes the time to vote - said she didn't even realise the Scottish Executive refered to the people in charge of the country, she assumed they were official government advisors or something. She's generally a clever lass, so I can only assume she is by FAR not the only one in this position. £100,000 may seem a bit steep, but it wouldn't even have been needed if the Laboural Democrats had given it the right name in the first place!!! The SNP can hardly be blamed for second-hand problems they've inherited, and it's good to get these things sorted as soon as possible.

£100,000 is considerably less wasteful than £600 million, or however much the Edinburgh Trams are currently going to cost.

210

Sassenach Observer,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 12:54:40

#107
Morris

The point is that Edinburgh is not really part of Scotland at all. Why should a Scottish (whatever that might mean) government be more relevant to Edinburgh than an Anglo Saxon or Viking one?

Obviously I am being selective with history but so are the proponents of "Scottish" nationhood. Let's take a melange of disparate "ethnic" peoples, persuade them that they all have some common ancestry which somehow makes them different from the people down the road, despite having intermingled with them for centuries. Throw in some romanticised b*llocks from Sir Walter Scott, Brigadoon and the Tartan Tea Room. Don't let on that clan membership was akin to serfdom and gloss over the fact that as soon as you don't need people to run around with claymores, you are better off swapping them for sheep (whatever English/Scots landlords did or didn't do in Ireland, at least it wasn't their own supposed families they did it to !). Momentarily forget the rampant religious bigotry and amazingly we end up with the modern Scots nation, ready to take its place in the 21st century.

211

Andrew Wilson,

Dundee, UK 03/09/2007 12:59:10

233. Honest Jock

1. That'w why I used the term divorce.

2. Not the ones that are only trading in the UK.

3. My question about cost was related to changing my passport to a Scottish One.

4. We would be an extremely weak currency, living next door to one of the worlds strongest. And yes, Germany is tied to France through the Euro.

5. I could go on and on because there are so many things that tie us to the UK as compared to the Airy Fairy ideas of Scottish Nationalism based on some romantic victorian (English?) notion of a Scottish Nation and tartan heedrum hawdrum.

212

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 12:59:48

236

Now apply yer spin of history to England and tell us who should be sitting on the throne and running Westminster?

213

Colin John Macrae,

West Lothian 03/09/2007 13:00:22

Re: Scottish Forces.Look at Vietnam,Iraq,Afganistan and many other country's, small compact convensional forces tying down masive Nuclear powerfull country's such as America,there are more way's to fight than toe to toe.

214

Carrick,

03/09/2007 13:06:09

#210
"By definition, a majority has to be more than 50%. So the Herald poll did not show a majority against independence."


By sheer virtue of the fact that only 35% were in favour of negotiating an agreement, others disagreed or didn't know.

This implies that the majority who knew what decision they would make were against.

On the laws of average it is unlikely that the total of didn't knows would vote in favour of Independence.

215

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 13:07:29

Sassenach Observer, Edinburgh

Cumbria is not really part of England can we have back?

216

Sassenach Observer,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 13:11:43

238

Well Jock, It is entirely possible that, had lesbian and gay rights applied at the time, we may have had some sort of descendant of James VI (to you) on the throne. I note that James was quick enough to leg it down to England by the way.

In terms of Westminster we seem to have a half-blind England supporter from Fife in charge - these things happen - it's what democracy is all about !

217

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2007 13:12:36

Richard: I am not suggesting that I want the flag to change, I dont. But a NEW democratic Scotland would need to embrace all of its cultures and religions, and I dont see that happening.

The racism in Scotland is beyond belief, the religious intollerance is pathetic, the East Coast hatred of the West is venemous and based on small dog syndrome. The North of Scotland is insultive of the rest of the country, and the central belt is not exactly polite about the North. When England play football against the nation whose army killed some of our very own people, some of our very own bacteria dawn the colours of Argentina.

Hatred, dislike, jealousy and intollerance is rife in Scotland, which begs the qustion as to how many years will pass prior to Edinburgh wanting independence from the rest of Scotland. How long before its ABERDEEN'S oil?.

The union is Scotland's best bet. Scotland is free, she is wealthy and in control of most of her own destiny, we dont need independence, it will only divide us further.

218

King Doug,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 13:12:43

There are some hilarious pieces of reporting in this article.

"However, many in the arts community are afraid current plans for Creative Scotland, which will replace the Scottish Arts Council and Scottish Screen, will allow ministers to interfere in the arts."

Got a source for this, or was this just Bob The Decorator who was painting the Scotsman offices this morning?

"However, other transport measures on roads, such as the M74, are likely to be opposed by the Greens."

That famously massive presence of 2 MSPs eh? I think it's more likely to be the other parties who will be a hinderance to any transport measures, so stop trying to stir things up, eh?

"However, the bill could be a waste of time if Glasgow fails to win the bid, with a decision expected in November."

Err... did you not state, just one line previously, that the legislation was required for spending on the BID, rather than the actual HOLDING of the event? Ah yes, you did.

Also, err... is there really a need to go on about the name change in this story, when it has a story all of its own? - http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=867&id=139564... Notice the link on this page still says "Scottish Executive" rather than "Scottish Government"...

Is this the Scotsman's attempt at going "you WILL be outraged by this name change! You WILL!!!" Pathetic.

219

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 13:14:39

237

What do you mean by ' that is why I used the term divorced?' you said it would be a messy seperation and I compared it to other seperations which were messy so how can the seperation we are planning be regarded as messy? by what standards?

Not the ones that are only trading in the UK.

Do you mean the ones with branches in Scotland England N Ireland and Wales but no where else?
Are we as a nation supposed to decide our future on any possible extra costs to small businesses with a branch in different areas of the UK?
Ignoring big business and the wishes of the population?
and what would these extra costs be? legal? doesnt Scotland and England already have different legal systems? maybe you are referring to import export duties? mmm bet nobody else thought of that? bet there wont be any agreements thrashed out during the changeover period. I mean its not like the Scots and the English are strangers to customs duties.
businesses big and small adjust to changing envoirments or they go under this will happen whether Scotland goes independent or not.
Do you think small businesses in the UK will not go under if we stay within the Union?

Dont you have to pay for a new passport every 10 years anyway?

Aye please do go on and on especially if its as nonsenscial as yer previous pish.

220

Sassenach Observer,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 13:17:11

241

Are you Welsh then ?

221

I.M. Converted,

Highlands 03/09/2007 13:17:18

232

Well said!

Not bad from a nation deemed not intelligent enough by the Unionist Coalition Party to be offered a vote specific to independance. (referendum)

We keep getting told the majority is against independance I don't know anyone who has been formally asked on this matter.
Maybe the A9 is still far too dangerous for the pollsters to travel up or will it just take too long because of being stuck behind Tesco lorrys or caravans. They could try finding a seat in our state of the art, two carriage trains or fly to the highlands on the most expensive internal route in the UK.
If they come via Aberdeen the choice is the same.
Point is the current UK infrastructure ends at Perth.

222

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 13:18:36

Media 1, cape town

What a sad excuse of a Scotsman you are?

That cringe is not very attractive you know?

Get up of your knees man!

223

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 13:20:35

243 Media 1

You dont actually believe that post is going to be taken seriously? so I can only come to the conclusion you are being a troll and just posting to p*** people off.

224

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 03/09/2007 13:21:21

I said in other posts that England was a bastard nation, in that nobody can say whether they are Norman, Anglo, Saxon Viking French Scots even, but the same can be said of the lowlands of Scotland and not in the highlands. Scotland in those areas have never been conquered in battle by any nation in history, quite the reverse actually. Today Scotland should dump those basta*&% the quicker the better.

225

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 13:22:22

Sassenach Observer, Edinburgh

No, half Scots half English.

Yes Cumbria should be retuned to Scotland forthwith!

226

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 13:23:56

#233 Honest jock - you display a poverty of imagination which is staggering. Scottish independence would mean a change in the relationship between Scotland, the remainder of the UK and the EU. No trauma, no wall, no border posts. We would remain wuithin the same customs and economic union with the UK as today. Czechoslovakia managed a fairly seemless transition to two indpendendent states having been tightly bound in a communist dictatorship and command economy - if they can manage a painless separation why not Scotland? What mark of Kain do we Scots have that marks us out, according to you other unionists, as being 2nd class, uniquely stupid, poor and incompetetnt that we could not manage what most other nations do? Perhaps you unionists lack the imagination, intelligence or vision to see how and why indepedence can be achieved, but please do not assume everyone else in Scotland does. A Scottish passport to visit granny in Blackpool -please, this is bottom of the barrel stuff - have you heard of the Shengan zone? It would not be in the interests of Sciotland or the UK to obstruct movement of people or goods between our two countries (Scotland being a net exporter of energy etc) Oh, and aye, your cashpoint card will still work at an English bank so you can take granny some sweeties.

227

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 13:25:40

242 ?????????

I wouldnt even mind if ye were funny I like a good laugh on these threads as much as anybody but if yer going to be a tosser at least be a funny one.

228

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 13:27:27

Media 1

"Richard: I am not suggesting that I want the flag to change, I dont. But a NEW democratic Scotland would need to embrace all of its cultures and religions, and I dont see that happening."

Ok but a changing a flag wont make one blind bit of difference. You get racism everywhere not just in Scotland. Also you can probably visit a good number of countries in this world and find that certain people dont like their counterparts in the North South East and West of their own country.

If this indeed is going to be stamped out it will take generations. Not a flag change and if you think Independence will only divide us further i take it this is just your personal opinion to stir up crap coz an Independent Scotland would not turn me into a racist

229

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 13:30:14

258

Away back and read the thread.

230

Sassenach Observer,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 13:30:41

255

You realise that they tend to vote Conservative in Cumbria ?

I'm unclear as to what claim Scotland has to it though. Perhaps you could clarify ?

231

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 13:32:55

Media 1

"Richard: I am not suggesting that I want the flag to change, I dont. But a NEW democratic Scotland would need to embrace all of its cultures and religions, and I dont see that happening

So in 300 years why hasnt the Union flag changed to reflect the changing ethnic demography and why isnt Wales represented?
And why should Scotland have to be different to every other nation on the planet that won its independence?

232

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 13:36:50

AM2, Glasgow

Ah! your true colours showing now I see?

"Do you deny the basic accuracy of Media 1's second paragraph? Live up to your chosen name and be honest: can't you see the tinderbox potential"?

You see potential for strife in Scotland like the "village idiot" do you ? What utter tripe.

This isn't N.I. Are you really suggesting unionists would take up arms in an independent Scotland? ARE YOU?

YOU'D BETTER WATCH YOUR MOUTH PAL, IT COULD BE MISCONSTRUED AS INCITEMENT TO VIOLENCE SOMETHING THE AUTHORITIES WOULD TAKE A DIM VIEW OF?

233

Gerry Rourke,

Ayr 03/09/2007 13:37:06

260 Methalions

Because it is a gross underestimate.

234

Sassenach Observer,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 13:39:15

Someone should do something about this binge posting.

235

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 13:39:29

261

The racism in Scotland is no better or worse than anywhere else in the world. It wont change with Independence one way or the other why should it?
People in Scotland will have their own personel predudices whether Scotland is governed from Edinburgh or Westminster why would it make a difference?

236

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2007 13:39:30

Richard:

So you disagree.

Are you saying that Scotland is not divided at all?

Aye right, we cant get along and you know it, we look for excuses to hate everything, and those of us who dont are hated by those who do...

Give it 10 years and Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen will be seeking independence, such is the immature mind set that exists.

I am not on my knees, I am standing proud as A SCOT who is proud of his country and the union they are part off. It is you who is on his knees begging for a Freedom that already exists.

237

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 13:40:04

269

Why?

238

Gerry Rourke,

Ayr 03/09/2007 13:41:59

266 Richard

Less of the false indignation Richard, it doesn't suit you.

239

MtnKat,

03/09/2007 13:43:03

#249 I.M. Converted
Thanks and apologies for the spelling mistakes, brain outran fingers.

240

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 13:43:03

Sassenach Observer, Edinburgh

As Edinburgh and the Lothians' were part of the Kingdom of Northumbria which became England so Cumbria was part of the Kingdom of Strathclyde which became Scotland.

241

Walter Ego,

Durness 03/09/2007 13:44:17

I hope that they are not reneging on the Council Tax freeze.

242

Ex-pat observer,

03/09/2007 13:46:09

#177 - Scotland remains in the Union and subject to the policies of the lected government of the United Kingdom because the Scots have chosen not to support a party that favours Scottish independence. As lomng as Scotland remains a constituent part of trhe Uk this will be the case. Of course, since the introduction of universal suffrage Scots have had the opportunity - the freedom - to support a party that favours Scottish independence, but freely and entirely of their own will they have not done so.

The Scottish Parliament lacks certain powers because up to now the Scottish people have not voted for parties that want more powers. Of course, that may change - given the new stance of the unionist parties in Scotland - it is almost bound to, and when it does, so the powers of the Scottish Parliament will change.

As I keepo saying, it is entirely down to the Scottish people to decide. That is what freedom is all about and it is what hundreds of millions of people around the world do not have. To talk about Scotland not being free is demean the real suffering of people in totalitarian countries from China to Zimbabwe.

243

MtnKat,

03/09/2007 13:46:22

#271 media 1
You claim to be in Capetown yet you ascribe attributes to Scots exclusively that are simply and unfortunately the human condition everywhere.

244

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 13:46:28

Media 1

i havent experienced one bit of division in all my life in Scotland.

"Give it 10 years and Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen will be seeking independence, such is the immature mind set that exists"....proud scot indeed if you think that your country is capable of that....what utter nonsense.

Its opinions like this from Unionists like you Media 1 that we are begging for freedom from.

245

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 13:48:00

272

So why didnt any of this happen when we were independent 300 years ago? Its not as if we havent been an independent nation before is it?
Like I said yer just being a troll.

246

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 13:48:47

282

Not to me so feel free to explain.

247

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 13:50:08

media 1

Equates city rivalry between Glasgow and Edinburgh to civil war!

What a F*@kwit!

248

Sassenach Observer,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 13:51:59

275

Slight oversimplification there I think. Arguably Wales and Ireland have a better claim.

249

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2007 13:52:37

#281 magic hoops: hahahahahahaha

Aye right. You can pull the wool over a foreigners eyes and paint a pretty picture of a united Scotland, but not with me.

I am home for 4 months per annum, so forget it mate. In Edinburgh, we slate an entire city by calling them weegie scum. Fortunately, there is some of us who admire and respect Glasgow for their first city status and overall contribution to Scotland's success.

Its the union at the moment, next it will be Glasgow.

As I said, it will soon be ABERDEEN'S oil

250

Sassenach Observer,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 13:55:24

Hasn't anyone got anything better to do ?

I know I'm skiving. What's everyone elses excuse ?

We can't all be MSPs surely ?

251

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2007 13:56:26

#285 Richard; No not a civil war. Its what it is, hatred and cultural intolerance.

You cant pull the wool over my eyes Richie boy, I live there remember, I am able to scratch the surface and experience the small minded attitudes that exist. And they exist in so many areas of Scottish society, hence the anti English sentiment, the anti Glasgow sentiment, the anti asian sentiment and the rest.

Independence will divide Scotland, the union is what saves us from ourselves.

252

connaughtboy,

03/09/2007 14:02:04

#214 Miss H

What am I lying about?

253

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 03/09/2007 14:03:13

243 media 1
fffffffff the union, what union are you gibbering about, maybe, the Union pie company, the union canal, the union cold storage, there is certainly no UK. Union,
That is not a union it is Englands gravy train and the very last station is in sight.

The union needs people like you who are far sighted, or maybe I should say to far away and should take an interest in South Africa's affairs and leave us to deal with ours.

254

connaughtboy,

03/09/2007 14:03:19

Ok have now read your later post Miss H

255

connaughtboy,

03/09/2007 14:05:24

#221 Media 1

I have never read such rubbish. The Saltire is Scotland's flag. No-one in Scotland would object to being associated with it.

256

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 14:06:05

Sassenach Observer, Edinburgh

So I take you're English?

P.S. Don't tell me about history, I know more than enough ta.

"Arguably Wales and Ireland have a better claim".

No they don't as Strathclyde was and is in Scotland the fact they spoke something akin to Welsh is neither here nor there.

In fact Edinburgh was welsh speaking if you go back far enough so it won't be going to the English now will it?

257

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 14:06:40

#287 Media 1

Im not pulling the wool over your eyes even though i do think your a Unionist Sheep. You might be home for 4 months per annum but i am here all the time so its unfortunate that your experiencdes are different from mine.

I do admire Glasgows and respect Glasgow for their "first city status and overall contribution to Scotland's success" but Fife contributes just as nuch as Glasgow or Edinburgh.

I have been called all things relating to Fife by my own family who are from East Kilbride and even my friends...never a stranger. I have also said similar things in relation to "weegies" but never in anger or as a statement of division as you so put it. If anything its all said as friendly banter and ribbing and thats all part of the Scottish quirky humour. Oh sorry but being a Scot you would no that but i have never been attacked or have never attacked anyone in a serious way about which part of Scotland they are from.

I suppose Edinburghs different then but i havent experienced it in Edinburgh either and i work there. Ive had friendly ribbing about it and when i worked in Dundee but never anything more serious and i cant remember the last time someone i know or heard of has had anything more serious.

So i dont know what kind of people you know Media 1 but they must be from a different planet.

258

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 14:06:50

288

Aye right enough I knew the answer had to be simple and obvious.
Funnily enough the last time the US was at war with the UK was when it was led by what were at the time UK citizens including Scots. 16 of em in George Washingtons general staff.
John Paul Jones the founder of the US navy was Scots and sank a UK frigate in UK waters in fact I think he sank quite a few UK vessels.
And amazingly enough in spite of all of this Scottish influence, the US had to be dragged into WW2 by the Japanese even though we were on the verge of being invaded by the Nazis.
You trust them if you want but they will always look to their own interests first and last.

If they are not going to nuke anybody then why have them? it cost billions to keep em safe and for what? All the nuke deterents in the world are not going to stop somebody from detonating a nuke device in a country if they know they can get away with it.
And what if a Nuke is detonated by a home grown group of disguntelled voters will they nuke em in retaliation?

259

connaughtboy,

03/09/2007 14:07:49

#227 NaUoN

Why are you so keen to advertise your lack of vision so publicly?

260

connaughtboy,

03/09/2007 14:09:11

#228 andrew

All fairly minor inconveniences. Anything substantial?

261

MtnKat,

03/09/2007 14:10:05

#290 Media 1
Lord love a duck, how you do go on.
That anger is taking you into apoplexy territory.

262

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 14:10:15

excuse spelling mistakes in post #296

263

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 14:11:52

Methalions

You under estimate, on a recent visit to N.Y.C. and Ellis Island they have a board you can find what ancestry the immigrants claim on entry and how many currently claim that ancestry resident in the U.S.A. Today......

Guess what 35 million claim Scottish ancestry!

264

JPF,

03/09/2007 14:13:08

Knife crime anyone? Tougher penalties for CARRYING offensive weapons anyone??

No? Oh well, at leat the tartans register is underway.....

Monkey parliament strikes again.

265

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2007 14:13:18

#296 Magic Hoops: I believe you when you say that YOU use the term weegie in more wind up terms, but sadly you are a minority.

Independence will pull Scotland further apart, it will create more divide, and more petty hatred because thats how we are. Drama is never far away were we are concerned.

266

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2007 14:14:33

#300 mtnKAT: Lord love a duck???????

hahahaha, on yersel hen

267

connaughtboy,

03/09/2007 14:16:17

#240 Carrick

We are talking about the results of a poll. 50% against independence, 35% support it and 15% don't know. Anything else is speculation and you know it.

This is only a poll, it is quite likely that the reality is quite different as can be seen from the previous "survey" wich put the pro-independence voters at 23%.

As I said above, 50% does not represent a majority.

268

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 14:17:04

Magic Hoops 2, Fife, Scotland

Media 1 is just making it up, he's reaching for ever more desperate arguments......all is lost Media, face it and embrace the future!

IT'S TIME..........TICK TOCK!

269

MtnKat,

03/09/2007 14:19:27

#305
An expression I once heard that caught my fancy. I was told that it was a non profane expression of disgust.

270

,

03/09/2007 14:20:53
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271

connaughtboy,

03/09/2007 14:22:35

#261 AM2 Actually I don't see the "tinderbox potential". Perhaps you could explain what you mean.

272

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 14:23:07

#307 Richard

Yeah i know he is its getting tiring (yawn) :D

#304 Media 1

I think your confusing my minority with the minority that you aspire to suggest. You must not get out of Edinburgh much

273

d.j.,

03/09/2007 14:24:27

Why do Scottish people blame the English so much for everything that goes wrong. Surely it is the lack of any understanding of their own history and having so little backbone, when it really counts that is the real problem.

274

Geoff,

Sunny South Africa 03/09/2007 14:25:16

Also-universal unilaterral disarmament? It is not going to happen.Ever. There will always be the BAD guys and again we all know intuitively who the bad guys are. We are sadly stuck with these terrible weapons and will always need them as insurance. It has NOTHING to do with revenge. Its about detterence.

275

connaughtboy,

03/09/2007 14:27:04

#272 Media 1

So far the only people talking (and thinking?)like that on this thread are you and AM2. That leads me to believe that the problem stems from you not us!

276

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 14:27:32

Geoff, Sunny South Africa

IT IS YOU WHO LIVES IN "CLOUD CUCKOO LAND".

SUICIDE BOMBER ANYONE?

I HARDLY THINK YOUR "MAD MULLAH" WILL BE QUAKING IN HIS BOOTS AT THE PROSPECT OF HIS MARTYRDOM, DO YOU?

NO DETERRENT THERE THEN?

Hence we need to be rid of this madness the world over!

277

Tru Scot,

Over Here 03/09/2007 14:28:29

#290 Media 1
I have never read such utter TOSH in my life, leave the posts to those of us that can still think and we will probably save you from yourself

278

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 14:28:33

309

Oh really? you think the US or the UK for that matter would jump in to a nuclear war for somebody elses benefit? and you call us Naive!

The bad guys? who are they? todays bad guys are tommorrows allies and todays allies are tommorrows bad guys so who do you think we should trust with nukes? I wouldnt even trust my own government not to use them on us.

279

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 03/09/2007 14:29:24

#302 Richard
Really astonishing numbers.
The proof of the pudding, that goes to show what the Union has done for Scotland that all those people had to leave our shores, and is still continuing, to find a better life. ffffffff the union.

280

Zoom2,

03/09/2007 14:30:18

#279

A couple of things you seem to have failed to notice, Ex-Pat.

1) The Scots have backed the pro-independence party in Scotland to the extent that they are now in government. That means that more people suppoirt them than any other party in Scotland. That means that the pro-independence party are the biggest party in Scotland. You should learn to live with thisgiven that support for the SNP is continuing to grow at an unprecedented rate.

2) You seem to think that totalitarianism (presumably force) is necessary for subjagating a people. You clearly do not understand how governments and their media outlets can quite easily coerce people to think and act and vote in the way they want them to. In Scotland's case, we have no independence partly due to the fact that we have no indepedent media. Moreover, we have no independence because we have never had a government who have sought to encourage independence until now. And now that we have a government who favour independence, lo and behold the movement towards independence is growing rapidly.

Scotland has, since the union, been influenced and coerced by the media and through various institutions (such as the Labour party) to remain within the union. But it is all changing now. The people of Scotland are waking up to the fact that the union has disadvantaged Scotland to a point that it is no longer acceptable.

281

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 14:34:07

#322 Methalions

I liked that one well done :-D

282

MtnKat,

03/09/2007 14:34:13

Good Afternoon Methalions
As a teacher I was hoping you could tell me who "WHA'S LIKE US!" is attributable to (see #232).

283

connaughtboy,

03/09/2007 14:34:39

#303 JPF Suggest you speak to McConnell and Jamieson about the high levels of knife crime. After they fail to explain why they had zero impact you might ask them for an apology.

284

MtnKat,

03/09/2007 14:35:10

attributed

285

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 14:36:09

312

Why on earth would anybody want to nuke anybody?
Even when nations go to war its for a reason and that reason has to show a benefit ie territory resourses, control etc with nukes there is no territory gain or resourse gain or contol because their is nothing left so even if there is a unilateral attack the attacker will gain nothing and not only that but the effect will be felt globally if not physically then economically. Even the aggressor will lose financially as markets globally crash.
We already have a balance in place without nukes its called the world economy and any nuclear attack on anybody by anybody will adversely affect all hence the deterent.
Not to mention the enviorment.
this balance of power pish is just that pish.

286

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2007 14:38:29

#316 connaughtboy: Well, since the union is 300 years old and still going strong, I would say it is you, not us who are clutching at straws and being pathetic.

287

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 14:39:04

315

Yes mate there will always be bad guys and right now its us the US and UK.
Thats the thing about the good guy bad guy concept its relative.

288

pehman,

sussex 03/09/2007 14:39:19

Well it looks like support for the new tory alliance party is slipping somewhat sharpish.

289

janis,

London 03/09/2007 14:44:39

MtnKat @ 308.... regretfully "love a duck" is a London expression....cockney rhyming slang...think about it.

Nice to see the Scottish tea towel at your Post 232. It crops up ever so regularly on these Posts. Good thing the www & the first programmable computer were developed by Englishmen, handy for you posters eh? :-) <bg>

290

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 14:45:00

328

I wonder what statistics would show if a European poll were conducted asking Europeans from all nations what they thought of the brits.
Do you think right now we are the most popular nation in the world?
I wonder if the we asked the French or Germans to conduct a poll with regards to the English as well I bet it would be a hell of a lot more than 30 per cent.
And I know how popular the Brits are in Spain because of the introduction to our culture on their beaches and holiday resorts.

291

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 14:46:08

AM2

"But even in such countries as Nigeria, Chile, the Philippines and Indonesia anti-British feeling isn’t anywhere near as high as anti-English feeling is here.

Now thats a contrast isnt it??? But you missed Honest Jocks point AM2....as usual you are twisting what people mean.

He/we are talking about racism in general AM2 anywhere in the world and racism with any race against any race. Why do you aspire to think that everything is revolved around the English??? Havent you had your coffee today??

292

David Ban,

Tha mi anns Spainn! 03/09/2007 14:46:55

#2 Call wee Eck "Am taoiseach" and be done wi'it.

293

Walter Ego,

Durness 03/09/2007 14:47:39

331

pehman, you must accept that a lot of Tories voted for the SNP in May as an anti Labour vote?

294

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 14:48:13

#334

Typical. Well you wouldnt be able to develop a programmable computer with all this light you have to see what your doing at night...and by god what would most of the English do at night without their TV's???

Best not get too cockney now sonny!!!

295

pehman,

sussex 03/09/2007 14:48:29

Mr Brown will today set out his vision for how the government can reconnect with a public increasingly disillusioned with mainstream political parties.

Mr Alexander's remarks came as new polls showed Mr Brown's "bounce" is rapidly flattening. A poll by ComRes puts Labour and the Tories neck and neck with 36 per cent support among voters.

And a separate YouGov poll for GMTV today shows Labour's lead on the Tories has narrowed to just three points, putting the party on 38 per cent, while the Conservatives are on 35 per cent. In both polls, the Liberal Democrats are on 15 per cent.

296

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 14:48:54

sorry #339 should read "without all this light"

297

Ex-pat observer,

03/09/2007 14:50:40

#321 - Can you show me the law which prohibits the establishment of pro-independence newspapers in Scotland?

When the majority of Scots vote SNP, then Scotland will be on the road to independence. It's all in Scotland's hands. Scotland is free. You do not have to be independent to be free.

298

Walter Ego,

Durness 03/09/2007 14:52:40

278

Methalions, £100,000 looks very low to me but it's obviously in their interests to keep the estimate as low as possible. If you are really interested in open government, the involvement of Audit Scotland should be welcomed.

299

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 14:52:47

AM2,


"Research conducted in 2006 by Glasgow University’s Bill Miller and Asifa Hussain found that 38% of people in Scotland harbour anti-English feeling".

Proof please? And were the findings not confused with anti Westminster feeling as opposed to anti English sentiment?

300

pehman,

sussex 03/09/2007 14:53:44

338 Walter,

Yes I accept that, just as many former labour voters did too.

What we see know is that they are now SNP voters and staying that way

301

Ex-pat observer,

03/09/2007 14:53:59

#335 - Why does it matter to you what the French or Germans think of the English? Indeed, what do you know about the English?

302

janis,

London 03/09/2007 14:55:29

Magic Hoops 339...... just pointing out that putting all those Scottish achievements on a tea towel is so naff !!

All countries within UK have contributed to modern life & technologies. No need to go on about it <ebg>

303

MtnKat,

03/09/2007 14:57:06

#334 Janis
I was just trying to keep the conversation lively.
Having educated me on the background of Lord love a duck perhaps you know that of another I heard at the same time, "Good Heavens to Betsey" which I was told was used when startled or suprised.

304

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 14:59:21

346

I couldnae care less but my post was in answer to a question and not a comment on how I feel about the opinions of the Germans or French and I know as much about the English as I care to know from my own personal experiances of living and working in England what do you know about them?

305

pehman,

sussex 03/09/2007 15:01:31

AM2,

ranting about racism again.

Well Ali Mohamed2 you are not really in a position to lecture anyone, give the hate and bile you spout.

From your own figs above 1/3 of unionists are racists, I take it you include yourself in that figure

306

MtnKat,

03/09/2007 15:01:39

349 Janis
#232 was a direct response to #39. Upon reflection I still consider it an appropriate one.

307

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 03/09/2007 15:01:53

313 D..J.
The true reason England gets the blame for everything is because of their slyness and the outrageous underhand administration of Scottish resources.
the only ones that have no understanding of Scottish history are the treacherous unionists and the English it is well known that Scottish history, geography or anything Scottish gets taught in English schools, and as I said in a post only yesterday English historians write a different version than reality. Well known and very easily proved examples are, the two world wars.
They quote that England declared war on Germany.
Another is England and the allies are winning the war. According to them Scotland weren't in the war.
I could go on, but you should get the picture. We know our history all right. The only people who have no backbone in Scotland are the the spineless unionists. Don't tar me with your brush the sooner Scotland dumps England the better

308

MtnKat,

03/09/2007 15:03:19

I meant 348

309

Zoom2,

03/09/2007 15:04:09

#328

The point is, AM2, that you are anti-Scottish to the core. You don't understand this. It seems beyond your comprehension. But here, again, you are hitting us with your daily dose of accusing the Scots of being inherently racist.

This is an insult. A very grave insult. And it shows, again, how out of touch you are with the Scottish mentality.

You are a fanatical unionist who deeply resents the Scots for daring to threaten the break up of the union. You resent it so much that you resort to these accusations of racism on a daily basis as if they should somehow amount to some inviolable reason for remaining within the union (a union which provided the basis for one of the most racist national entities in modern history).

I think your behaviour is quite disgusting.

310

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 15:04:19

#347 AM2

"I don't imagine, in your words, that "everything is revolved around the English". That's your slip showing. But it's clear to anyone with their eyes open that the worst racism in Scotland is against the English."

What your slip is even though we arent even talking about racism in Scotland you cant help but bring it up time and time again. What about the racism in England?? why dont you analyse that??....also see post #344 if you havent already

311

Jalepeno,

03/09/2007 15:04:59

I remember when I was about 12 chanting arguments of how much England are hated and Scotland loved by one and all... and all the wonderful technologies Scot's invented.

It was a shame I had to grow up. It would have been bliss to wonder through life like an eejit still chanting back that glib understanding of it all.

Scotland is not the strong nation it is today despite it's partnership in the United Kingdom, Scotland is strong today because of it.

Thick as dung you'd have to believe any different as an adult, unless your twelve, and then it's just a growing pain.

Scottish Government my bottom, if people didn;t know what an excecutive is then it's because they are thick as pig's droppings. Just educate the people on what that one word means. Costs less and you don't need to order new stationery for everyone.

Looks like denial to me. Most fat stupid CEOs immediately rebrand when they take office, because organising paperclips and stationery is something they can nearly always get right. It's denial of course, get some real work done.

312

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 03/09/2007 15:04:59

No Scottish history gets taught in England.

313

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 15:05:26

#357 Zoom2

My sentiments exactly

314

janis,

London 03/09/2007 15:06:23

MtnKat 349....Never heard that expression so don't know.

Yea, you've got the conversation going lively, especially as far as I'm concerned! Why is the "Scottish Tea Towel" list addressed to an Englishman? Not trying to stir it, just a wondering.

315

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 15:06:33

360

It doesnt get taught in Scotland either.

316

,

03/09/2007 15:07:48
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317

Media 1,

cape town 03/09/2007 15:08:38

Whether youre a unionist or a nationalist, the fact is that Scotland is part of the union, and has been for 300 years.

If Scottish people wanted independence we would have had it by now. Are SNP crew telling us that all Scots for the last 300 years have been ANTI Scottish?

We are currently part of the union, and that says all there is to say on the matter.

318

Scythia,

Strathclyde 03/09/2007 15:10:10

AM2 - Pedantic point, I think you got your numbers wrong again.

"0.98/sqrt(52) = 13%" !!!

Do you mean (100 * 0.98) /( 52 ^0.5)

(98 * 52^(-0.5)) = 13.6 %

319

qche,

03/09/2007 15:10:46

Scots are not as racist as English - Dios ask anybody in the big wide world...and that hated flag the patronising snobbery...it goes on and on

Before I left Scotland I never met a racist, I knew a few ice cream Italians, a few left over from the war Poles and the only black man I ever met was in the big city of Forfar where Nigel Hazel was the cricket professional.

When I went to London I was astounded by the hate of many races. Even the Jewish girls turned me down because I was a 'goy'

You always know a Scot because he has a scottish accent, whether from the Gallowgate, Gourock or Meadowside. The worst violence I ever saw was the queue for carry-outs after hours at the Glasgow Fair in Arbroath.

Get real you English bigoted unionistas. The Union is racist and rotten and coming to a long overdue end.

320

,

03/09/2007 15:11:04
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321

Ex-pat observer,

03/09/2007 15:12:52

#357 - What you mean is that AM2 does not agree with you. Does that make him anti-Scottish? To be a true Scot do I have to agree with your views?

322

MtnKat,

03/09/2007 15:13:01

#362 Janis
I answered you on #353. But I will elaborate by saying that #232 was e-mailed to me long ago and I do not know who the author was. I would like to add that I did not post it in anger or indignation.

323

Ex-pat observer,

03/09/2007 15:14:58

#367 - too right. Those English are all racists, every single one of them. Aren't they just disgusting, those racist English?

324

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 15:18:22

#365 Media 1

yawn

325

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 15:19:24

258/233 - Honest Jock - how right you are, I replied to the wrong post, my apols - #258 was meant for 228.

326

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 15:21:08

#360 - worse, precious little Scottish history gets taught in Scotland

327

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 15:23:08

368

Well if the shoe fits! dont forget to add to the invasions of Scotland Ireland and Wales the invasions of India, Most of Africa, France, Austrailia, New Zealand, Canada, US, China, The Caribean Islands, The Malvinas, Indonesia, Israel, Iraq, Afganistan, Iran, Russia and on and on and on.
They outdid even the Romans.

And to be a true Scot all you have to do is qualify for a Scottish passport within an Independent Scotland and the criteria should be the same as qualifying for a UK passport. Kilts bagpipes and shortbread are optional.

328

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 15:23:20

#365 - Media 1 - is that the part of the thread where we state the obvious? Do we assume fromyour post that nothing may evolve or change.

329

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 03/09/2007 15:25:37

Hello All,

A couple of points:

1. Concerning the rewriting of the Rape Laws.

Tell me, are or are not, women the equal of men? If they are, then I strong suggest that either a drunk woman be charged right alongside the drunk man with her own rape, or leave that section of the rape law as it is!!!

Why does a woman who has voluntarily chosen to get smashed, automatically have adorned to herself, SPECIAL RIGHTS allaying ANY RESPONSIBILITY for her getting plowed? (in both meanings of the term).

A man who is drunk, who has sex with a woman who is drunk, can well find himself CHARGED WITH RAPE, despite the fact that the woman gave her consent while she was drunk.

In other words, the drunk man having ask for and having RECEIVED CONSENT from the drunk woman, is held to a DIFFERENT and HIGHER STANDARD, than is the drunk woman.

Such a double standard is HIGHLY HYPOCRITICAL, strips a man of equal protection under the law, places an extraordinary standard of both behaviour and legal responsibility upon the man-while at the self-same time OBVIATING ANY RESPONSIBILITY from the woman, and creates an artificial legal classification for women-to which men are excluded.

People, either a drunk man and drunk woman are on the SAME legal footing in personal responsibility or they are not; either women are legally equal with men or they are not.

Either make this a clear legal FACT by defintion, or let us be done with the Potemkin village, so readily created for us by Women's Rights Groups and S-Ps both in and out of Government.

2. Airgun Illegality.

Creating a new criminal class of previously law abiding citizens, will do for air guns and deaths/injuries resulting from improper air gun usage, as it has done for hand gun deaths/injuries throughout Great Britain.

There is no need to criminalize law abiding citizens. What IS needed is to provide for SERIOUS and SEVERE punishment for CRIMINALS, who engage in illegal beh

330

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 15:25:53

373

I have done it myself, sometimes I just cant be arsed to read the whole thread first.

331

,

03/09/2007 15:27:48
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332

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 03/09/2007 15:28:02

Hello Honest Jock,

My dear fellow, Shortbread is NEVER optional: shortbread is one of the handful mainstays of everyday life.

Beer being another such one.

Cheers from the Rockies.

333

morris,

03/09/2007 15:28:54

365

In a democracy we test public opinion and elect governments for a fixed period as you well know. An SNP government must be a possibility,since we already have one! Therefore its far from all there is to say on the matter. In the year 1707 hardly anybody supported the Union of Parliaments and yet we got exactly that!
In fact Scotland tried to leave as long ago as 1711 and there have been over twenty attempts at Home Rule since then,only one of which was successful.

I am a democrat (no not the Liberal variety when it suits their purpose) but the real kind. I accept the majority decision,but only when its unambiguous and that means recently! It requires constant monitoring and there is no such thing as the settled will of the people.If there were Scotland would still be the independent nation she was for one thousand years prior to 1707 and the United Condom would not exist. People ask me why call it the United Condom .Thats easy!
A CONDOM is perfect because it more accurately reflects the government's political
stance. A condom allows for inflation, halts production, destroys the next
generation, protects a bunch of pr**ks, and gives you a sense of security
while you're actually being screwed!

It just doesn't get more accurate than that !

334

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 15:30:45

380 - Honest Jock - i think the deranged and patronising tripe at 228 caused me some disconcertion, when I scrolled back up to find it and the perpetrator again I mistook your post (just from the similar length, not its content) for the offending pile of steaming mince at 228.

335

Ex-pat observer,

03/09/2007 15:31:05

#376 - there is nothing like rewriting history is there now? I am afraid that the only country you list which Scotland has not played a key part in invading and colonising is Wales. But why let that get in the way of prejudice, eh?

336

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 15:32:27

#381 AM2

Yeah the facts about you your talking about eh??

337

,

03/09/2007 15:32:41
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338

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 03/09/2007 15:33:59

374
My mistake I forgot that for a long time Scottish schools were not allowed by law to teach any Scottish history, but only British.
England was taught English history, they also think that only England fought the world wars.

339

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 15:34:04

#378 - AM2:

#366 Scythia
"Incidentally, I can be pedantic too."

One of your few accurate posts. i think you understate your mastery of pedantry :-)

340

Geoff,

Sunny SA 03/09/2007 15:35:25

Maybe a little story to illustrate my point..

Scotland 2015-Prime Minister Alex Salmond has congratulated the United Kingdom of South Britain and Northern Ireland in destroying the last of their Nuclear weapons following the unilaterral abandonment of these by the USA and France, following the statement of the French Prersident Jacques Pompousdoux that he wasnt going to carry the can for the West any longer. British Prime Minister Harold Eccles said"Alex has been an inspiration. We'll spend the money on schools>"
Salmond has sent his Self Defence Minister Sally McPassivitee on a world tour to talk to newly installed Ayatollah Mallmulliah of Iran,new Dictator Kim wham Bang of Korea and Chinese Great Teacher and grandson of Mao,Mog Tse tong. She is confident that she will be able to persuade them to abandon their nuclear weapons,particularly those stationed in the Islamic Republic of Ireland.

Koreas ambassador to the UN was seen to snigger in the Security Council...

341

Zoom2,

03/09/2007 15:36:04

#365 Media 1,

No, Scots have not been anti-Scottish over the past 300 years, nor are most pro-unionist Scots today (I think there are a very small percentage who take a perverse pleasure in being anti-Scottish Scots, but you find that kind of thing everywhere).

I think what we're talking about is coercion and how Scotland underwent a forced integration into the union through a variety of cunning economic, social and political ploys.

Personally, I regard Scottish unionists today as victims of these ploys (I have been one myself in the past). The question is, would Scotland be better off outside of the union? And the answer to that is, yes, on any level you care to mention (politically, economically, socially, culturally, psychologically etc etc). There are no arguments in favour of the union which are good enough for allowing the union to continue. It's an anachronism, too, a political set up that belongs to the nineteenth century, not now.

You can't just say, we're part of the union and that's all there is to it. It's not all there is to it. Considering whether we remain in the union or not is very much a part of all there is to it, and that's what we've been doing for the past fifty years or so.

342

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 15:38:11

#392 - tcek - Not that long ago, I was taught only "Briitish" history. Nothing on Union of Crowns, Union of Parliaments, wars of independence, Bruce, Wallace, or indeed any Scottish history at all -Any other nation would teach children the bare essentials of its history, only in Scotland, would the basic narrative of our own country's history not be taught at all

343

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 15:38:26

#394 :D

344

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 15:40:37

365

The problem with that theory is that the majority of voters just dont vote at all so we never know what the majority want. Chances are when we get independence it could very well happen with a minority vote.
It will be interesting the see what the turn out will be for the next UK election as all the major party leaders are unpopular and the majority of voters are just sick and tired of policies that dont work for them and of the pre election lies and deceipts.
Of course this means nothing to ignorant trolls like you who are not actually interested in facts or honest opinions for either side of the argument.

345

qche,

03/09/2007 15:41:18

Ah yes ex pat & Co you prove my point. The snobby perfidy doesn't work any more and you are bairney straw clutchers

I never said the English were racist - I said the Union was racist yes and that in London there was 'the hate of many races'. Get it right.

And as for scottish accents they come from all directions and from all races. It often surprises and pleases me.

346

,

03/09/2007 15:41:49
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347

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 15:48:53

#400

Unfortunately you will find that with the usual unionist cronies. They just cant stick to what you actually posted theres always some made up crap thrown in there

348

Norman C.,

London 03/09/2007 15:50:17

" ...an ambitious programme of work including reforming the law on rape, abolishing bridge tolls and outlawing airguns."

All of some importance (in my home abolishing bridge tolls is the major topic of mealtime discussion and debate), but "ambitious"? No, just the sort of measures that any competent government should be looking at. Let's not elevate Scottish government. It's run of the mill. That's what governments DO.

And if the proposed changes on the rape law are indeed "supported by other parties and women's groups." then the measures become even less "ambitious" since presumably there will be no parliamentary opposition.

349

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 15:50:26

#402

You either trying to be sarcastic or your just downright ignorant if you think he wasnt talking about it not being taught in schools

350

Norbert Dentressangle,

03/09/2007 15:51:00

All this talk of schools reminds me of this fantastic news...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/69...

351

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 15:52:22

#402 AM2 - your link shows some Scottish history teaching resource - it doesn't show that these are used anywhere. Another of your goofs, no doubt brought about by the zeal with which you try to divert us, yet again,onto anti-Englishness, terrorism, "tinder boxes" obscuring your focus. I said I wasn't taught any, not too long ago (nor would I guess were anyone of my generation or previous)- the O-Grade syllabus did not include any Scottish history at all.

352

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 15:52:53

#406

Well thank the lord SNP got into power to save the day from Labours mistakes huh???

353

Zoom2,

03/09/2007 15:53:08

#401

You're one of the ones I referred to above, who takes a perverse pleasure in hating Scotland.

I know a couple of people like you already. One thing about them is that they project their personal failures onto the wider circumstance of the city or country they live in in a desperate bid to attach the blame to something else that isn't them.

Your hatred of Scoland is really a hatred of your own life, which is crap crap because of your own failures, not because of other people.

354

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 15:53:15

400

The whole human race is inherently rascist its instinctive. Its how you deal with your instinctive rascist compulsions that define you.
Some people deal with it better than others some people dont make any effort at all in dealing with it and it therefore defines them. So all of these so called statistics of rasism are fundamentally flawed and meaningless. Rascism is also subjective and fluid. It can shift from one focus to another and back again so its pretty hard if not impossible to define or measure.

355

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 15:53:20

#405 - hoops. Don't underestimate him, he could be both.

356

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 03/09/2007 15:54:32

396 Am2
When are you going to answer the reasonable question I have been asking you.
Ill ask again why????? if we are a burden to the masters England, do they not tell us to go. Its a simple question.

357

Magic Hoops 2,

Fife, Scotland 03/09/2007 15:55:47

#411 Ayshirescot

;-)....indeed

358

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 15:57:22

402

Are you telling us this is part of the history curriculum taught within Scottish schools? and if not why did you post this link?

359

,

03/09/2007 15:58:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
360

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 15:59:40

#401 Jalepeno. i am chagrined to see your dissociative state, induced by bile and bitterness at the SNP government's early successes no doubt, is no better. Its saddening to note that your dung fixation seems as compulsive as ever. Lets just hope no one has to touch the keyboard after you, eh? Your name is not the only characteristic of a legume about you. "Scotland's voice" - would that be the UK government, which was willing to sacrifice our fishing industry to gain access to the EU, and sacrific our steel industry, which turned to Scotland as a site for UK and world nuclear waste dumping, and which so well reflects Scottish opionion in Iraq, and with Trident? Perhaps not much of a voice if it doesn't speak for you?

361

Zoom2,

03/09/2007 16:00:18

#396

What the hell is this reference to bomb-making? Again, AM2, you are really insulting towards the Scots. I'm just disgusted by your comments. You put on your pretty boy pose and then come out with sinister stuff like that. It's disgusting. You typify a lot of what the union stands for. BS, bascially. Propaganda. Hyperbole. Untruth. Sleaziness. It's all there.

362

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 16:00:55

394

Yep point made very clearly your an idiot never doubted it.

363

morris,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 16:01:05

236

Not quite!

Any nation requires international acceptance,and United Nations have strict rules on who and what would/would not be recognised (well in the circumstances sense anyway). One category which is automatically recognised is that you were a self governing nation formerly,but how far back one goes in history is ambiguous.Scotland definitely qualifies,as one of Europes oldest surviving nations,that we do know. Please note SURVIVING which is quite different to the case for any other nation we may have been involved in.Whether they would recognise an earlier kingdom such as Dalriada or Northumbria I have no idea, but I very much doubt it!
However it does require also that the people wish it to be so,and as far as I am aware ,nobody gives a flying rats for the ancient Kingdom(s) of Lothian or Northumbria and my Gododin past,( apart from you and I evidently).
In any case the SNP case is very much an economic one and its the Unionists who argue the historical nationalism which they would like the SNP to adopt because they have an argument which requires scrutiny there,where the economic argument was won by the SNP a long time ago.

Personally I just believe in the right of self determination,and accept the majority view, whilst still supporting my minority viewpoint.Thats as democratic as I can find so...................................thats it! Scotland is recognised and there is support for her .
Northumbria/North East England did not even want devolution until they saw Scotland getting it! Hardly the basis for good governance I would have thought.

364

PiedraSanta,

Alba gu bragh 03/09/2007 16:02:09

To: 39. A True Englishman: from under what rock did you crawl. You obviously have nothing constructive to offer, so crawl back to your little dark hole.

To: 232. MtnKat: that was great. Thanks.

365

,

03/09/2007 16:02:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 932367, Article id was mapped to record!
366

KMcL,

Glasgow 03/09/2007 16:05:24

Re. Jalepeno's posting at 401 above:-
"What about the United Kingdom's veto in Europe as a founding member".
The UK was NOT a founding member of the EC and it does NOT have a veto derived from this 'fact'.
Please try to confine your comments to matters about which you have some knowledge.
P.S. Do try and improve your manners at the same time as your knowledge of modern European history and institutions. Your insults are boorish uncalled for and not even original.

367

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 16:06:54

#420 AM2, you seem to have carelessly ommitted any logic from your last post. I said that I, nor my generation, were taught any Scottish history. It was not included in the O-Grade syllabus. you produce one play on Mary Queen of Scots at one school, and a class exercise from another school. Well, with these two schools doing 2 hours I feel our cultural heritage and history are secure.

368

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 16:13:53

#423 Jalepeno - oh, the cruel viscissitudes that have left you suffering a dung fixation coupled with a letheragic and miniscule mind.

You say Scotland's voice in Europe is stronger as part of the UK. That would be true if the Uk did not actively damage Scottish interests (e.g fishing industry) and use them as sacrifices in negotiation, or if the UK government actively represented Scotland's interests - its failure to do so on steel and its reluctance to back objective 1 funding for the highlands being examples where being aprt of the UK helped not at all, or hindered Scotland's interests. Being part of the UK which so alienated and disgusted most Europeans with its illegal invasion of Iraq can hardly help our representations. I am surprised you don't tell Estonians or Georgians that their voice was stronger as part of the USSR/ CIS. Lets cut out the middle men at Westminster - we have a parliament, lets go forward and represent ourselves.

369

,

03/09/2007 16:15:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
370

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 16:16:22

AM2, Glasgow

McCrone? Treachery! What say you?

371

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 16:16:25

422

Yep that certainly confirms that Scottish history is not taught in Scottish schools.

372

morris,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 16:17:30

187

Maybe a tartan flag Media 1?
It would certainly encompass a few colours !

373

Alan Reid,

Aberdeen 03/09/2007 16:19:17

Well done Mr Salmond leading from the front again.
Jalepeno!!! take a chill pill, I think you must be some kind of Rangers nut the way you spew forth your bile.
I don't blame England for anything apart from some ENGLISH and SCOTS MPs who have ripped Scotland off for years.
Now at last we have a Party who will stand up for Scotland, not like you scumbags.

374

David MacVicar,

web 03/09/2007 16:20:33

*** Unionist wake Up Call ***
a) The Scottish Parliament is responsible gfor governance in all non reserved areas. It is high time the name the name was changed to reflect this ordinary fact. The name should reflect the status of the parliament. They are not there only to execute the will of Westminster despite what unionists would wish and unionist parties have done. The name SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT will remind people of who they represent.

b) The current list of non reserved powers are about to be enlarged. Nobody knows to what extent that will be but it is a certainty that Scotland will have increased governance over its own affairs. To this end the ruling party should have a name that reflects its growing role.

c) With Devolution the 100% unionist argument is already lost. That horse has already bolted a long time ago. We either get busy governing ourselves entirely or with increased powers or leave the decisions to Westminster. Only a tiny minority is thinking about the latter option. Scotland is going to have some form of Government. Unionism as we knew it is dead. The union dividend is being shown for what it truely is: a vehicle to deliver - Lies, threats, talking-down, scare-mongering, undemocratic policies, squandering of natural assets, under representation, theft, general obfuscation and.....possibly even murder!

I think we need a Government.

375

Baillie Guthrie,

03/09/2007 16:21:01

Eeek Grrrr These are two of AM2's favouite expressions. So I assume that AM2 was started at DC Thomson on the Beano and that he is now a mature student doing political science. Media 1 is also a political science student but not so good, but he would make a better politician of the Boris Johnston school that AM2 who would have made an excellent Michael Forsyth creepy Secretary of state figure. I am working on the other forum droids and drones. AM2 might scam a 2/1 but Media 1 a fail I'm afraid.

Yes not much is happening as we wait for the general election 'turkeys do vote for Christmas' announcement -

376

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 03/09/2007 16:22:11

425 AM2
DONT TALK SH--E, THE S.N.L.A. IN NO WAY TO BE CONFUSED WITH THE SOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY, SEVERED THE PIPES IN SCOTLAND, NOT AS YOU HAVE TWISTED IT TO ENGLAND, THESE ARE FACTS.

377

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 16:23:13

#248 - Obfuscation, in the guise of Am2's latest post, waxes befuddling across the the thread again, leaving a slimey silver trail. I said I was not, nor were my generation, taught any Scottish history. you produce web links to teaching resource in yet another tedious non-sequitur. Your inability to deal with points is as clear as your compulsion to subvert all threads to your notional and supposititious charges against the SNP of racism and violnece. Do, in all sincerity, try and get a bit more real.

378

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 16:27:44

AM2, Glasgow

Answer the question?

McCrone? Treachery! What say you?

379

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 16:28:09

#438 for 428 of course. Am2's obfuscation and obscurantism must have interfered with my numbering :-)

380

Norbert Dentressangle,

03/09/2007 16:28:31

Why is Jalapeno so scatologically minded? I seriously hope he doesn't own a glass topped coffee table.

381

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 16:30:07

441 - Norbert. LOL. I just hope we don't unknowingly meet him in person and shake his hand. Imagine the poor folk next to him if he uses public transport.

382

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 16:30:30

AM2, Glasgow,

Hears another for you.

Do you deny that the majority of Ulster's population voted for a republic of Ireland?

383

Zoom2,

03/09/2007 16:35:02

#423

You are almost the perfect imbecile. I say "almost" because your affection for dung and droppings is actually quite endearing.

I always marvel at the desperation of unionists to prove how much the "love" Scotland and are "proud" to be Scottish when they have virtually consigned the country they cherish to the dustbin of history. Is it some kind of guilt thing?

Again, though, this demonstrates severe insecurities underlying your whole mindset. You apparently need a union in order to feel like Mister International Big Shot, as if that's something that really matters for a country like Scotland.

I would have thought that learning to stand on your own two feet was the thing to be proud of. You are obviously in favour of a dependency culture (in this case depending on English muscle for support in world affairs. I don't see this as much to be proud of. Embarrassed maybe, but not proud.

But what you don't realise is that, within the union, Scotland does not have a stronger voice. It just doesn't have a voice at all. In international terms, England and Britain are one and the same thing and no one thinks of Britain as a union at all. They see it as England with some additional parts that used to be independent countries before England absorbed them. Most people abroad are actually under the impression that Scotland was acquired by England as part of its empire building. They have no idea about Acts of Union and all that.

Still, I'm sure that'll make you feel proud and full of love for a country that isn't perceived to exist as a country at all. You don't seem to be the type who cares much for what Johnny Foreginer might think on the matter.

384

Norbert Dentressangle,

03/09/2007 16:36:10

AM2 perhaps your schooling overseas means you might not share our sense of injustice at being taught English history opposed to our own Scottish history.

I clearly remember being taught about 1066, Magna Carta, the Tudors, Stuarts, Cromwell and the Hanovarians. Robert the Bruce was only giving passing mention and that because of his association with a spider.

As a dad, I've noticed things have changed in the past decade or so, with a more rounder general approach to Scottish history, albeit cherry picked moments.

385

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 16:36:15

433

As opposed to a Unionist slant you mean? Nae I would just settle for historical facts and if they are not known then they should just say so and not speculate or give opinion which is inevitably biased.

386

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 03/09/2007 16:36:54

AM2
Why does English historians very frequently state that in the world wars that England declared that a state of war now exists between England and Germany, or the queen of England or England did this or that forgetting the British aspect I.e. Scotland wasn't in the war It would be funny except they broadcast these slurs abroad.

387

Tom R,

03/09/2007 16:39:52

AM2 Various

Your "tinderbox" comment is unjustified, with no supporting evidence. If there was going to be meaningful violence in Scotland over constitutional issues it would already have occurred in Scotland-over the N. Ireland issue, especially in the West of Scotland. It did not occur and it will not occur over Scottish constitutional issues.

In many responses to your comments in the past I have never raised your NI background as an issue but I think the tinderbox comment does owe much to you having that particular background and is sadly distorting your judgement.

One of the greatest achievements of the Scottish independence movement is the lack of any fatalities due to the movement for all of the 20th century and the 21st century to date.

388

Am Balach,

An t-Eilean 03/09/2007 16:39:53

126

'Ceanmhor' literally means 'big head'. Given that Alec Salmond does have a huge head on account of his massive brain it may be appropriate. But think of the long term and the small headed people who may take over one day.

I would go for 'Priomhair'.

389

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 16:40:30

445

That just about sums up my experiance with history in school as well almost to a tee.
My knowledge of Bonnie Prince Charlie was gained in Music lessons with the Skye boat song.

390

JPF,

03/09/2007 16:41:06

322 - ahhh Methalions...

I thank you for your well-structured and well-considered post. You are a credit to us all. When the "posters' Oscar" time comes round, you're up there with the best of them...like kranal, jalepeno, bob10 et all.

JPF?....GTF.

Nice. I was simply attempting to make a quick, concise point about the UK-wide trend towards crime linked to offensive weapons, and how the Scottish Parliament was preferring to sort out 'important' issues like registering tartans rather than deal with crime which makes our country's streets unsafe to walk in the 20th century. Yes - I made a couple of spelling mistakes, but you elected to start waving your pseudo-intellectual attitude in my face, with what you saw as a comedian-esque reponse.

Well, don't give up the day job (if you have one) because you aren't amusing in the slightest. I made a couple of typos because I was otherwise engaged (it's called having work to do) and took a moment to comment here. If you want to start swearing at people and insulting them (I believe the term is keyboard hardman - sums you up quite nicely) while pontificating on websites all day, then fine. However if we add up all the evidence from your posts on here, including your 'bebo-esque' (in maturity at least) infantile 'humour' later on, we can see you have revealed your true identity. Stand up Terrence (T) Watt.

Get the message: Thanks for coming on the thread and correcting everyone's opinions, thanks for the offensive comments, but having looked rubbish you have posted - you clearly aren't funny, aren't clever, and very probably use your personality as contraception. Good luck in life - you will clearly need it.

Nhob.

391

Geoff,

Sunny SA 03/09/2007 16:42:34

443 Richard-maybe they did,but the six counties didn't!

392

Geoff,

Sunny SA 03/09/2007 16:45:18

450 Honest Jock-We were taught that Bonnie prince C. was gay.
Just an observation.
Some of my best friends are gay.

393

David MacVicar,

web 03/09/2007 16:46:44

To those calling foe Gaelic signposts or Gaelic First minister names. Since when was Scotland purely Gaeldom? I have a Gaelic, West coast heritage but Scotland has a mix of cultures, with Scots dialect still remaining and I am sure many Pictish remnants.

One thing we did not have was an anglo based culture though this has taken over most of our everday life. Gaelic signposts wont recover culture. Scottish art, literature, values, history, ethos and language (all of them). From cradle to grave we have an over representation of anglo influences from education to broadcasting to language. This is why a Scottish 6 is not simply another empty polict but a vital move as a window to the world through our own eyes not someones remote vision. And if that aint important, try replacing the BBC London with CNN and see what the southeast think!

394

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 16:47:56

JPF

GTF! :-)

395

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 16:50:13

451

Aye but with yer usual Unionist tirade you just seem to forget to mention that the issues of crime, the NHS, transport, tax, defence, etc etc are being dealt with along with the mundane issues and are in fact not being neglected in favour of the mundane issues as you wish to claim.
None of your claims of course can or will be substanciated with any evidence because that is just not the Unionist way. Give yer opinion if you must but dont present it as fact unless you can back it up can you?

396

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 16:50:27

Geoff, Sunny SA

443 "Richard-maybe they did,but the six counties didn't"!

What idiocy is this?

Duh! the 9 (NINE) counties DID!

397

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 16:51:30

#448 - the only violence there will ever be in this debate is the violence that Am2, jalepeno and their controversialist stirring ilk do to reality, reason and the idea of discussing important issues such as Scotlan'd future without injecting slurs of racism, "tinder box" terrorism. I think their rantings indicate a panic amongst unionism, long may their downward spiral continue.

i bet Jalepeno's garden is great though, with all that dung.

398

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 16:52:39

#453 - fascinating. you could work that up into quite an anecdote.

399

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 16:54:12

#451 - oh I don't know, Methalions is often quite witty. Those who can do, those who can't...

400

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 16:54:13

453

Aye well the Unionist spin has him as a transvestite but he did shag Flora McDonald so am no sure of the gay lable who knows? who cares?

401

Zoom2,

03/09/2007 16:54:15

AM2

The "tinderbox" remark speaks for itself. You really have an incredible lack of respect for the Scottish people, especially those who have pursued the aim of independence with a strict adherence to the democratic means at their disposal. No need for me to say anymore.

So, let me bail you out by drawing your attention to one of your favourite toys, a yougov poll.

There was a poll the other day accodring to the herald that put support for independence at one third ogf all Scots. Maybe you've seen it?

One third. Wow.

So, this would appear to put the figure up from the huge 23% who want independence (from a week or two ago) to a whopping 33% of all Scots. That's a growth of quite alot (even according to my woeful arithmetical standards) within an amazingly short space of time.

Maybe you can find the poll the Herald is linking to. But here's the Herald page referring to it:

http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.1659...

Really, I'm surprised you haven't referred to this poll yourself, given your love of polls. But this is obviously because it goes against everything you'd like to believe was happening in the real world and clearly isn't.

I have to say that the Herald is being a little pessimistic when it claims the poll disappoints. I for one am delighted at the massive figure of one third of Scots now supporting independence. About five years ago it was about one quarter. Now it's one third. I think this is an amazing swell of opinion that shows no sign of relenting. And it can only grow as support for the SNP continues to grow at such an unprecedented rate.

As I've said all along, the obvious trend is towards independence. Whether it continues or not remains to be seen, but there's nothing for now to suggest it won't. Even you might admit to that before too long.

402

Amparo de Glasgow,

us bottle-washers and baby-factories need a say !! 03/09/2007 16:55:08

och dearie me ... yuzz dinnae hof git yersels inna tizzy.

Wee Eck and Tricky Nickie will have their work cut out for themselves ehh?

Mibbee Salmond and Sturgeon should call a snap election in October and replicate Broon's idea doon Sooth in Inglaterra ...

Then we can see if May was just "flash in the pan" or if the Scots really do want independence huh??

403

Tom R,

03/09/2007 16:55:35

#297 Honest Jock & #232 MtnKat.

As a blood relative of John Paul Jones I find it interesting to note that one of his reasons for supporting the Amercans was his disgust, at the treatment of Scotland by England (as he saw it) in 1745, I quote from his writings:

"In the month of February, 1776, the parliament of England had authorised George III to treat all the Americans taken at sea, with arms in their hands, as traitors, pirates, and felons: this more than any other circumstances, rendered me the declared enemy of Great Britain. From the very commencement of the war, an exchange of prisoners had taken place between general Washington and the commanders of the enemy's army; notwithstanding the haughty conduct of Great Britain, she was obliged to submit to this arrangement, and consider the American soldiers as prisoners of war. It was, however, an attrocious crime to act against her by sea; and England, on this occasion, perpetuated a new all the cruelties on America which she had lavished on Scotland in 1745. A ferocious and vindictive people would have rejoiced to have seen the American sailors cut down from the gibbet while yet alive, their breast opened with a knife, and their yet palpitating hearts thrown into the flames! If they did not dare to attempt this, they, however, shut up a number of citizens of the United States in the English prisons during five whole years, where they suffered all the horrors proceeding from cold, hunger, and every sort of mal treatment. Some of these unfortunates were sold on the coast of Africa, while others, were transported to the West Indies. The firmness with which these martyrs of liberty supported their hard lot, is wholly unexampled; for they preferred every kind of prosecution to serving on board the English navy.
"Indignant at the barbarous treatment experienced by the Americans, I determined to make a grand effort in their behalf, with a view of stopping the barbarous proceedings of th

404

JPF,

03/09/2007 16:59:09

457 - Dick (Beautiful West Lothian)

errrrr.... will do.

ps - unfortunate name, even more unfortunate location. Ahh well, life can be tough sometimes! :¬)

405

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 17:04:29

466

Aye and there is hundreds of years of this kind of benevolent British empire building on record nearly everywhere on the planet. And it all started in London. God bless em.

406

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 17:05:44

Good grief. JPF (451), AM2 (pick almost any post), jalepeno (423), media 1 - as a relative newbie on here, I have to ask, is this site actually just some form of electronic group therapy for dyspeptic, bitter, panicking unionists unable to cope with the reality of an SNP led Scotland? Clearly the whirlwind SNP triumph in may, and the intensity, energy and vigour of the government since has left them in a state of some discombobulation. Lets just hope they can regroup their sadly diminished faculties and manage to have a debate on the constituion that doesn't involve racist slurs, terrorism, violence, animal excrement or AM2's calculations on opinion polls.

407

Pete,

Paisley 03/09/2007 17:09:01

Will the majority of Scots people be more wealthy after independence? Assuming that independence happens.

408

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 17:09:48

470

That just about sums up the Unionist position on the SNP in government so far I am just waiting for one of them to blame the change in weather patterns on Scotlands push for independence.
They havent claimed yet that Edinburghs castle rock will reactivate the day after independence but its on the cards.

409

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 17:10:33

471

Yes of course they will why do you doubt it?

410

d.j.,

03/09/2007 17:11:55

If Scotland is so different.Why is Tartan the only Scottish cultural item worthy of legislation?

411

Jalepeno,

03/09/2007 17:12:24

#471

For 40-60 years we will be. Until the Oil and Gas runs out.

Then we have the daft unemployed murder capital of europe round our neck. We can maybe then divorce ourselves from Glasgow to make some more cash.

412

,

03/09/2007 17:14:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
413

Geoff,

Sunny SA 03/09/2007 17:14:14

459 Richard-yes but the six counties didnt!!!
463 Honest Jock.. and that King Billy was a hunchback!

414

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 17:16:09

Pete, Paisley

"Will the majority of Scots people be more wealthy after independence? Assuming that independence happens".

An unequivocal, Yes!

Obviously it will take hard work, the right conditions and policies, that said we have to be independent to do it?

415

Zoom2,

03/09/2007 17:16:19

#447 and 475

And don't forget "who do you think you are kidding Mr Hitler if you think Old England's done".

Fran and Allen was it?

416

Honest Jock,

Leith 03/09/2007 17:19:07

478

Well there you go I didnt know that seems you never stop learning history or at least somebodies spin on it.

417

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 17:20:50

Methalions

What about Anglo/ French relations this or Anglo /American trade figures that?


ANGLO?

418

Geoff,

Sunny SA 03/09/2007 17:24:35

You guys are on a roll.What about
"There'll always be an England
As long as Scotland's there!"

And Perfidious Albion?

419

Geoff,

Sunny SA 03/09/2007 17:26:15

484 Alan reid-some kind of Rangers nut!!? I say old chap steady on!!

420

nhsdoc,

Scotland 03/09/2007 17:28:55

Pehman
If you're so keen on independence, why are you living in Sussex - money?/weather? -
why not come back to Scotland and either work for less or stop whinging about being part of the UK when you obviously are an ex-Scot.

421

Norbert Dentressangle,

03/09/2007 17:33:11

#468

Just for Methalions


http://tinyurl.com/2rw5rh

Dare you....

422

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 17:33:26

Geoff, Sunny SA

So Geoff you don't believe on democracy, judging by your last post to me?

No, not you eh?

British Imperialism's the only game in town for you eh?

423

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 17:36:07

#486 - I have re-read your post, but still cannot detect a glimmer of logic or coherence in it. I can only venture that you are another bewildered unionist suffering a breach with reality induced by your recent drubbing by the nats.

Do you ask patriotic citizens of the US what they are doing in other countries working? Is this a betrayla of country? Do you decry the double-standards of English/Brit nationalists who profess love of country but work abroad. I would imagine that in an independent Scotalnd people will be free to leave to work elsewhere, indeed the EU single market was designed to facilitate such. Why does someone's place of current residence, whether or not work related, devalue their opinion?

424

Andrew Allan,

03/09/2007 17:37:15

AM2, regardless if there are a number of minor errors in ‘The Great Deception’, the argument still stands, that the GERS do not show an honest account of the total revenue taken from Scotland. Even with these errors ironed out Scotland still does better than brake even.

425

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 17:41:03

#488 - Methal - "well I've ruffled your feathers".

Feathers? Scales perhaps.

426

Pete,

Paisley 03/09/2007 17:41:51

Honest Jock # 473
a proud doonhamer # 477
Richard # 479

"a proud doonhamer" You are a tosser, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Can any of you three SNP drones prove that the majority of Scots will be wealthier after independence?
If not what is the point?

427

Andrew Allan,

03/09/2007 17:45:27

Methalions.,#492.
'"Will the majority of Scots people be more wealthy after independence? Assuming that independence happens."'

Methalions, the majority of those who are already doing well will still be doing well, but the big change is there should be an increase in those coming out of poverty, due to the restructuring and development there after. There shouldn't be many worse off.

428

Geoff,

Sunny SA 03/09/2007 17:46:00

489 Richard-I do believe in democracy-the democratic right of the people of Northern Ireland to determine their own future. I sure you have heard of the Ulster Covenant and Carson-"We will remain British even if we have to fight the British to do so!" Many of them were/are Ulster Scots returning from Pictland to the country of their origin-Ireland. But we stray from the subject-Scottish Assembly,Scottish Government-what u think. Similar thing happened in Canada-what Diefenbaker called"Creeping republicanism" part of which process involved substituting the Canadian Royal Coat of Arms on government stationery with the Maple Leaf. D'ya think Alex has bin reading Canadian History books?

429

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 17:47:17

#495 - Ah, High IQ Pete returns to true form. Having finished chewing at the curtains he shambles across his room in the Saucihill Secure Centre for the Marginally Comprehensible, back to his keyboard, pushing Johnny Adair roughly (but not too roughly) aside.

What is the point? Well... national liberation, control of all domestic law making, control of our own foreign policy, representation in Europe and the world, rid our country of weapons of mass destruction, control of our own economy which will leave us wealthier...big ideas, practical propositions. I regret all over your head. How is your slavering, rabbies related problem by the way, you dear wee soul?

430

Pete,

Paisley 03/09/2007 17:48:42

Methalions # 492

I have always enjoyed our little spats. There is no animosity.
But, wouldn't it be nice if everyone could be a bit better off?
I can't see the Scottish economy expanding post independence, that is not to concede the inevitability of that, but, I suspect that it will contract. We have no obvious advantage in any business or natural resource. That is why I think that Salmond and the SNP are making false promises. They will succeed in enriching themselves only.

431

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 17:50:07

#502 - phenar phenar

432

Geoff,

Sunny SA 03/09/2007 17:50:19

ps-500-a lifelong dream!

433

David MacVicar,

web 03/09/2007 17:53:53

471. Pete, Paisley. Who knows, but only of some form of Labour as it is now doesnt get voted in ;).

A few things will change though and one key thing is empowerment:

Will we get who we vote for - yes.
Will be be be able to clearly identify revenues and expenditures and therefore be able to make informed economic decisions - yes. Why cant we now?
Can We decide what wars to join - yes.
Defense policy in line with a country no longer trying desperately to remain a world power - yes.
Nuclear offensive weapons? Certainly not trident. Other nuclear? Maybe, but hey we will decide.
Have control of our resources - yes.
Energy policy in line with our requirements - mostly, certainly more so than now.
Be able to punch abover our weight - propbably not, do we need to?
Take ownership, go in our own direction, make our own successes and failures - yes.
Commense a new relationship with England as a close, active business partner as opposed to a silent, passive one - yes.
Create a more socially responsible society? Probably - Scotland is much more left leaning than the South of England. Under devolution Scotland has already made key social policy decisions taking us in a different direction.

etc etc etc.

434

,

03/09/2007 17:55:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 932644, Article id was mapped to record!
435

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 17:58:22

#503 - no obvious advantage in business or natural resource? Hydro, tidal, wind, oil, gas - the most energy rich country in the devloped world if these were all developed, the most energy rich country in Europe just with hydrocarbons. Exporting more per head than Japan....

It is easy to nay-say. Perhaps we should all stop believing, as you do, that Scotland is uniquely inferior, different or second rate. We are not better than other countries, but we could be equal and we surely have the talent to run our country better than it has been run for the past 100 years? The alternative, which is your hypothesis, is that in all Scotland we do not have the intelligence, ambition, vision or application to run our country successfully - i.e that Scots are all thick and maudlin?

436

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 03/09/2007 17:59:25

471#
You better believe it.

437

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 18:00:51

Geoff, Sunny SA

You conceded that the majority of Ulster voted for the Republic so why the waffle about Carson and the six counties?

On that democratic vote Ireland should of remained a single entity, the same single entity it had always been?

438

Pete,

Paisley 03/09/2007 18:05:03

Methalions # 508

Ah, crime, AyrshireScot and his contacts come to mind... That bumper book you mentioned, have you got an ISBN number for that; AyrshireScot could do with a little inspiration. His lines are turgid, old.

David MacVicar # 506

I have never got the argument about us being able to make our own mistakes.

439

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 18:05:05

#507 - Jalepeno - we all watch sadly as you thrash around as what started as disorientation in your mind degenerates into a belly flop into your own fragmented, disorganised, sordid and squalid psyche. I for one eagerly await your next Kafkaesque contribution. It may be unkind to be having fun at your expense, just by reading your posts, but fun it is. (not too much fun though)

440

David MacVicar,

web 03/09/2007 18:05:20

What a notion: Independence for Scotland and Self Government. A notion that is so alien to UK unionists and yet so much part of normality for the rest of the world.

Maybe the unionists have somehow got it right, we really are somehow different? We are a rare breed of incompetents better looked after by a larger neighbour who somehow have our best interests at heart, protecting us form the even bigger neighbour called the EU who want to take all our rights away. Oh, what an altruistic thing this UK union beast must be. NOT. Poor wee misguided unionists.

441

Pete,

Paisley 03/09/2007 18:07:40

AyrshireScot # 509

"Scots are all thick and maudlin."
That is your analysis, your words.

442

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 18:08:02

#512 - But Pete, you are a little inspiration.

443

Zoom2,

03/09/2007 18:09:02

Pete form Paisley,

I have to say that it's what you're saying now that baffles me the most about some Scots, who seem to think that the union offers undending economic bliss and security.

You live in Paisley, presumably. Don't you ever go out? Don't you see the state of place or of its neighbouring towns, likle Greenock for example?

You talk about wealth. But just how on earth can things get any worse in Greenock or Paisley than they are now? Independence is the only chance these places have got for improving their lot.

These towns should have an all round decent standard of living. They don't. That's the economic legacy of the union.

444

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 18:11:21

#515 Pete - are we to proceed in two parallel sets of correspondence, me dealing with what was posted and you in your own anxious, delusional world? I said -
"The alternative, which is your hypothesis, is that in all Scotland we do not have the intelligence, ambition, vision or application to run our country successfully - i.e that Scots are all thick and maudlin?"

445

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 18:12:04

#517 - Zoom - that was cruel. I don't think Pete is allowed out.

446

Jalepeno,

03/09/2007 18:12:52

#517

Where is your evidence?

It's becoming a tiresome inconvienence reading about you farting higher than your waste band.

The level of wealth is not distrubuted greatly to these areas becuase they don't create the wealth.

So for your unsubstantiated ramblings to make any sense, you must be suggesting an independant Scotland would be a communist Scotland? Or that our east coast would become enslaved to provide for the west? Or that the magic money rabbit would come and visit and bring paisley and greenock presents.

447

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 18:14:35

Pete, Paisley

Wakey! wakey! Pete!

Independence is coming!

TICK TOCK .........IT'S TIME!

448

Richard,

west lothian 03/09/2007 18:20:54

Jalepeno

Please tell me you don't own one of these?

Puuullleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssse!

http://www.furnitureontheweb.com/images/Furniture/f6038.jpg

449

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 18:20:59

#521 - Richard, sadly Pete's "friendship" with Johnny Adair has left him exposed to prolonged unionist propaganda in the form of pillow-talk. He mind, such as it was, is now inculcated with hard-line unionist tripe, lowering his ambition for his country, and lowering his opinion of his country and its people.

450

AyrshireScot,

03/09/2007 18:23:27

522 - Its may be worse than that, jalepeno's scat fixation is all consuming to the poor unfortunate

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5411496-description.html

451

Jalepeno,

03/09/2007 18:24:44

#522

Nah, I used to, but try getting a pig to squat over one?! Nightmare, I was picking shards of glass out my face for a week.

I just visit SNP.org.uk (or here) for my fix these days.

452

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 03/09/2007 18:25:45

#497 Andrew Allen
Excellent comment I couldn't have put it better, although I was going to comment.
these website forums are the best way to ensure separatism. One thing is sure, the unionist politicians visit these sites and don't like most of what they are reading in them, they can see the tide turning against them fast, and they can do nothing about it.
If anyone tries to stop these forums id put the kitchen on it being the sly English politicians with the Scottish unionists crawling up their backsides.

453

Pete,

Paisley 03/09/2007 18:28:43

Zoom2 # 517

The Oracle speaks. Alec Salmond has told you his plan for the regeneration of Paisley. Spill the beans.

Jalepeno # 520

All these SNP drones, you know who we mean, are good for is a bit of repartee and ribaldry. They have no real idea what divisive forces that the SNP is determined to unleash on the Scottish people.

Richard # 521

Tock, Tick, Tock, Tick Alec Salmond is a ...
Independence is not coming, Salmond is lying to you; again.