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Young people lose out as Scotland lands near bottom of poverty league

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Published Date:
04 July 2007
SCOTLAND is trailing near the bottom of an international league table measuring the quality of life for young people, with one of the worst records on poverty and teenage pregnancy, a damning report said today.
The first report of its kind, that compares Scotland's performance with up to 31 countries on various measures of life for children and young people, finds the country near the bottom in almost every measure.

The controversial findings, published
yesterday by Barnardo's Scotland, make for uncomfortable reading and confirm other international studies which highlight that children in the UK are losing out.

On child poverty, Scotland is ranked at 23 out of 28 countries (for some countries no data is available) - just ahead of the UK in 24th place, and is trailing the league table on teenage pregnancies - ranked 28th out of 31, compared to the UK's 27th place.

For low birth weight - another measurement of the health of a nation - Scotland is equal 24th with Portugal out of 31, while the UK is 26th.

The difference for dental health is most striking - Scotland comes in at 19th out of 28 while the UK is in third place. The figures are likely to be seized upon by those who have criticised the lack of NHS dental practices north of the border.

It is estimated that a third of children and more than 50 per cent of adults in Scotland do not have an NHS dentist.

Last night the charity called on First Minister Alex Salmond to improve life for Scotland's children in light of the findings.

Martin Crewe, director of Barnardo's Scotland, said: "This report clearly highlights that urgent action needs to be taken to improve the wellbeing of children in Scotland.

"Through our work, we know how difficult it is for children who are missing out on opportunities and we urge the Scottish Executive to prioritise children's services in the allocation of resources through the comprehensive spending review.

"We need long-term investment in children's futures, particularly in the development of preventative services.

"We need to learn the lessons from the relatively-good performance in education and use that to improve outcomes for children in other areas."

The study, by the economic consultant John McLaren, is based on a comparison with other countries in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). Scotland was also found to have a poor record for suicide rates - ranked 19th out of 30, while the UK is in 7th place. On economic participation, which measures the number of 15 to 19-year-olds not in education or employment, Scotland is rated at 24 out of 28, compared to the UK at 21.

One of the only areas where Scotland performed well was education - ranked 8th out of 31 countries with the UK in 11th place.

Barnardo's said the report, entitled The Index Of Wellbeing For Children In Scotland, bolstered other recent reports suggesting that children in the UK had fared badly when compared to other countries.

Researchers said it was too early to tell if recent Scottish Executive policies had made any difference.

The findings come just a month after Save the Children published research suggesting there are 90,000 children in Scotland living in severe poverty.

Douglas Hamilton, head of policy and research at the charity, said: "There are far too many children in Scotland living in poverty.

"It's a disgrace, given the wealth of the country... and the Scottish Executive needs to make sure this is a priority.

"Children can't wait for these issues to be resolved."

Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing Nicola Sturgeon said the Executive would not accept a Scotland of "widening inequalities".

"This report shows that we have been failing too many of our children, for too many years

"The Scottish government is determined to right this wrong, to sort out a situation that condemns far too many of our young people to a life they simply don't deserve."

She added: "Tackling these inequalities will undoubtedly be a massive challenge for this new Scottish government, but one we are determined to deliver on."

• SAVE The Children classified just under 10 per cent of the country's one million children as living in its worst poverty bracket.

A report found that more than 90,000 children in Scotland are living in 'severe poverty'. The study looked at children aged 15 or under, living with two parents who bring home less than £7,000 a year after paying for housing costs.

The charity's Living Below the Radar report found that a third of children in severe poverty cannot even afford basic toys and games such as a bike or a football, while about 20 per cent miss out on occasions such as Christmas or birthdays.

In Scotland, 18 per cent of children are classified as being in non-severe poverty - households with incomes of about £10,000 after household expenditures.



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 July 2007 8:53 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish child poverty
 
1

Gregorf,

That'll be the Union dividend then? 03/07/2007 23:54:24

"finds the country near the bottom in almost every measure"

and coupled to the fact we are the most violent country in the developed world, makes for a very sorry state.

2

I'm no really here,

04/07/2007 00:06:03

There you go Mr MacConnell - "The Best Wee Country in the World". Thanks very much to you and the Labour Party for the past 50 years, and for 300 years of the Union. And what do we get from our new PM?? "We will do nothing to put at risk the Union."

3

Scullion,

Canada 04/07/2007 00:35:15

When visiting the land of my birth, I always had the feeling that I was in a place which was slowly dying. Bridgeton Cross, once a beehive of activity, had now become a tired crossroads of speeding cars and pedestrian barriers. I thought it was only in my head but it seems the moribund nature of place is in fact a reality.
Can Brown and/or Salmond stop the rot?

4

Alice S,

04/07/2007 00:49:12

Third day now and still unable to comment on the terrorist related stories.
"The Scotsman" you should be ashamed of yourself.

5

Guga II,

Rockall 04/07/2007 01:04:33

Just another example of the "union dividend".

I see AM Squared is at the cut and paste bit again. He must have been given his instructions on what to say by his political masters.

6

Robinh 37,

UK 04/07/2007 01:19:10

AM2 Ha ha Ha Ha there you go again is your pager throbbing tonight with instructions from on high.

10 years of Nu Lie bor = severe poverty for Scottish Children

Blairs Legacy grows even longer now, fantastic AM2.

ONly a fool likes a London rule ask the people of Hong Kong, India, Singapore, Canada, Australia, etc etc.

Get London out of our blood and we will flourish and grow.

AM2 Ha Ha.

I realise something now with the continual monitoting of AM2.

This poster does not live in the UK or this poster is on night shift at Labour HQ.

7

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 04/07/2007 01:58:34

-- and teenage pregnancy.

This is not a disease it is called LIFE. Will our Government please stop persecuting single mothers, the youth, the aged and all us inbetweens, and trees too from the never ending pifflications arriving through our letter boxes.

They are OUR Government, are they?

8

albanoch,

Kyoto Japan 04/07/2007 03:12:07

The only way to reverse this trend is Independence...It can't get any worse so it can only get better....
All those who are against Independence are no better than perfidious, treacherous, faithless, disloyal insidious betrayers who have been conditioned and brainwashed in nothing more than Northern Englishmen..
For years in every report be it on health, housing, crime, violence etc.etc. Scotland has always come out on top...or at the bottom whichever way you look at it and there are still clowns who believe the rubbish printed in newspapers about how well we're doing...take a look around and see the reality. The only way out of this quagmire is Independence and when things start going right, which they will, you'll all be wishing you'd done it sooner....beter late than never.

9

dave evans,

edinburgh 04/07/2007 03:44:43

er..instead of blaming whichever government is in power...how about blaming the people? There seems to be plenty of money for the Scottish diet of alcohol, drugs and cigarettes, as opposed to decent healthy food proper dental care.

10

Tatties ower the side,

Johannesburg 04/07/2007 04:23:55

#11 Dave. Suggesting people take responsibility for their own actions is just sacrilegious !!!!!

Sitting round on our fat asses complaining about the Government is much easier and, frankly, much more fun!!!!

11

Alan Reid,

SF 04/07/2007 04:56:44

Scotland is dying, keep trying AM, but you can convince no one. The country needs to be dragged back into the 21st century, the SNP can do it if it is allowed.

12

Chaplin,

04/07/2007 05:09:08

#11 Dave.

I dont know how you sleep at night, making comments like that.
It must be the governments fault, especially Westminsters. The unemployed and all the other hangers-on don't get nearly enough from the taxpayers. This is clearly a typical "union dividend" and has nothing to do with personal resposibility.

13

W Smith,

Middle East 04/07/2007 05:44:26

#8 RobinH 37
I half agree.

"Get London out of our blood and we will flourish and grow" - not entirely true.

Independence for socialist Sri Lanka and socialist Zimbabwe has been a disaster.

Its "get socialism out of our blood and we will flourish and grow".

If Salmond turns to Bill Wilson, the communist, for advice on how to run the economy some Nationalist might to do a quick U-turn.

Ian Douglas Smith (half Scottish) made Zimbabwe 'flourish' even during sanctions while socialist Robert Mugabe has produced 15,000% inflation (latest figures). The genius!

A few Scottish nationalists have tried to blame British colonialism for this mess.

I disagree. This is a smoke screen, in my opinion, designed to save socialisms reputation.

Why should England take the blame for Mugabes failure when we Scots don't give the English credit for Singapores success?

Singapore has a statue of Englishman Sir Stamford Raffles. He is recognised as the man who had the vision to make Singapore one of Asia's main trading port second only to Hong Kong in some respects.

Not much socialism in Singapore though - you had better be prepared to do some hard work if you want to live there and prosper. Single teenage girls who have 2 kids to 2 different fathers will not get any hand-outs from the Singapore government.

Salmond shouldn't promise the Scots gain without pain.

14

,

04/07/2007 06:49:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 758084, Article id was mapped to record!
15

IanW,

Germany 04/07/2007 06:54:45

Interesting way of reporting the statistics. Since when has Scotland been a separate country to the UK?

If they are going to report this way then perhaps it would be better that they quote the so called UK figures as the "UK average"?

16

IanW,

Germany 04/07/2007 06:59:19

Alice S #5 - They won't allow discussion or comment as they are scared that the real feelings of the people, which is different to the political statements put out by the government and the muslim community, will come to the fore.

The people of Scotland are outraged at the senseless attacks. I would even suggest that the majority of the people would want the muslim community to be punished, even although the majority have no part to play in terrorism.

If the will of the people is known then politicians are in a difficult position as they are elected to represent the people.

The only way we are going to have a say is by hijacking another story, such as this one, and start our own discussion thread.

17

puskas,

East Kilbride 04/07/2007 07:12:27

No16 Stephen101,

A simple reply and point of view to an eejit.

Similar to what I posted last week with another right of reply blocked when thread was closed...

No further comment necessary.

18

puskas,

East Kilbride 04/07/2007 07:17:09

No17 IanW

From the Scottish perspective I prefer the quote on our figures only..

Its nice to see how our country Scotland is performing. OR NOT.

19

puskas,

East Kilbride 04/07/2007 07:18:38

IanW

The UK is not a country... but countries.

20

Tory Heaven,

Edinburgh 04/07/2007 07:21:23

#5 - Alice, I agree. This ridiculous censorship shows a contempt for the readership of this paper.

http://toryheaven.blogspot.com/2007/07/censorship-in-name...

21

Wherryman,

fife 04/07/2007 07:39:51

#22

it surely beggars belief doesnt it ? What are they scared of ? The truth perhaps ?

22

Tourist Guide,

Edinburgh 04/07/2007 07:43:10

#18 Of course people in Scotland- or anywhere else on the globe, be they Muslim or non-Muslim countries - are outraged at senseless acts of violence aimed at killing or maiming. It was no different during the terrorist atrocities on both sides of the "Christian" divide in Ulster, or the equally murderous activities of ETA extremists (presumably "Christian" as well) in Spain. What IS alarming is Ian W's dangerous drivel, which may have a bearing on why comment is not available, i.e. as a means to allow racist bigots a chance to air their ugly prejudices............not that such a criticism could be levelled against any of the posters complaining about the lack of opportunity to comment, of course.

23

decent one,

04/07/2007 07:55:24

Scotland has some massive problems to solve :
teenage pregnancies
crime
poor diet
lack of discipline in the young
alcoholism
and as far as I can see the they're only getting worse. We need to check out how other countries tackle these problems. In my mind the greatest scourge of Scotland is teenage pregnancies. The young mothers can barely look after themselves. They have no concept of healthy food, discipline etc. We then have a Catch22 situation because they are the ones breeding more.
There are solutions but unfortunately nobody will take the tough decisions.

24

Tweedmouth,

04/07/2007 08:02:36

Scotland has been exporting its best brains and its best entrepreneurs all over the world for 250 years - if you do that for ten generations it will have an impact. Add to that give generations of dependency culture especially in Glasgow - and you have a recipe for disaster. Everybody knows that the only way forward is for individuals to do something for themselves - through education, work, struggle, entrepreneurship - the State can only open the doors to education and training. You only have to read these columns to see how deep the 'it wasnae my fault I didn't get on' syndrome goes: it was the English, the Union, the government, the Tories, the clearances, the theft of the oil, the Empire. It goes all the way down to bedrock.

The only answer is - what it has always been - to depend on yourself and your family and make your own way in the world. Everyone knows that there are no free lunches; nobody gets to be a success without years of struggle; there is no short cut, no handout, no get rich quick path except on TV fantasy.

The strange thing is that Scots were the eptimoe of self reliance and self-made- men/ women for hundreds of years and then from the 1960s onwards abandoned self reliance in favour of state handouts - or currently state jobs.

As long as people project their own failure outwards onto 'the English' or whatever other bogeyman they conjure up, they will never deal with the personal challenge that faces them.

25

Scottish Father's Rights Organisation,

04/07/2007 08:03:51

Our government allows one parent to prevent CARE, GUIDANCE and LOVE from the other parent, to their children after relationship seperation, no wonder our society is in such a mess.

We now have a welfare state that has backfired big time !

26

Brisbane Scot,

04/07/2007 08:07:29

Some very interesting comments coming through today from the mouth pieces of the British Nationalists. Its all the peoples fault for not taking responsability for their kids.

That wouldnt be them setting up an alibi for their beloved Labour Party who have ruled Scotland for fifty years with an arrogant attitude towards the people who would vote for them anyway. I think the proof is in the pudding with the amount of attention we now command. They are s****ing themselves in Westminster now. If this had been a Scottish Labour or Westminster investigation it would have been shredded by now.

I read on a forum a question which wanted to know why the SNP kept speaking negatives about Scotland(in labour terms that means speaking the truth) We have been told during the recent election that everything is wonderful under Chairmans Brown/Blair. We couldnt manage on our own because we need the English to baby sit us. What did Blair say you havent had it so good. Well excuse me we did when we were independant and not governed by being ignored but taxed by
successive Westminster Parliaments.

Personally I would like my Independant Scotland to be a socially responsable country who put the needs of Scotland before all else. A country where there are wealthy business people who were recognised for their contribution to the opportunities available to the people. I would want a government who did not throw money at a problem instead of finding out what was the cause and treating things as a National Problem that would be cured by taking affirmitive action through existing government departments who are funded and staffed by people who cared more about the success than whether it was politically correct. Departments who had a strong awareness of the opinion of all the people and new that they would have the support of government and the community in tackling issues. I want a country that has a fair Social Security that would help Scots in times of crisis but was

27

GM,

04/07/2007 08:08:39

In June 2000, a survey by the United Nations Children Fund (UNICEF) reported that the level of child poverty in the UK is among the worst in the developed world. UNICEF placed the UK twentieth out of 23 countries in their table of relative poverty, and found that the number of families suffering from poverty had risen much more rapidly in Britain than in most other west European states.

28

GM,

04/07/2007 08:09:45

from Labour March 2007 -

"The figures issued today show that although there has been little change in the overall number of people in poverty from last year we have made real progress tackling poverty since devolution."

29

GM,

04/07/2007 08:10:55

no surprises with this report (and equally no surprise in terms of AM2's pasted response)...

No we don't revel in Scottish poor performance AM2, but we will do is highlight it where it has not been tackled despite the last 8/50 years...

30

GrahamL,

04/07/2007 08:11:43

#21 I think thats the point he was making. The UK includes Scotland, which makes it very odd to report the two seperately in a table. Surely instead of "the UK" it should say "England & Wales" or somesuch?

31

GM,

04/07/2007 08:12:12

2002 Report -

"Co-funded by the devolved Scottish Executive, the report found that in Scotland 310,000 children up to the age of 16 live in households officially defined as poor (receiving less than half average income). This means that around 25 percent of children live in households that are reliant on Income Support, a benefit paid by central government to the most socially disadvantaged."

"Glasgow, Scotland’s largest city, is singled out for the high levels of poverty concentrated within its boundaries. Some 42 percent of those under the age of 16 live in a household dependent on Income Support. Only 17 percent of those leaving Glasgow’s state schools go on to higher education"

32

IanW,

Germany 04/07/2007 08:14:37

Paskas #20 & @21 - Yes I fully agree. my point was about the impression given by the terminology used. As you say UK is a union of countries, becoming a loose union gradually. It i sthe fact that the report is badly presented/written as it gives the impression that Scotland and the UK are two distinct entities. In fact the figures for Scotland are included in the UK totals, albeit averaged out in some way.

I too would be happy to see each individual country identified as it may highlight serious discrepancies about health, education, etc.

33

GM,

04/07/2007 08:19:05

Comment from Barnardo's Scotland -

"As the latest Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) statistics show there has been a rise of 100,000 in the number of children in poverty, Barnardo's Chief Executive Martin Narey says: "This is a moral disgrace."

"In 1999, we were all excited by the Government’s determination to eradicate child poverty and, on the way, to halve it by 2010. It is now clear that what they meant was that they intended, not to halve child poverty by 2010, but to reduce it a bit. These figures show that some modest progress has been made, but even with the concessions in the Budget, progress in taking children out of poverty has slowed and may stall all together.”

“We are the fourth richest country in the world, we are a country where we can countenance individual bankers getting annual bonuses of £22 million while we give a family of two parents and two children, living on benefits, £10,000 to live on for a whole year.”

The DWP Households Below Average Income figures for 2005/2006 were published today and show a rise in the number of children in relative poverty of 100,000 from 2004/2005 to 2005/2006. The number of children in absolute poverty remained unchanged."

34

IanW,

Germany 04/07/2007 08:26:50

Tourist Guide # - In what respect have I presented "dangerous drivel". I have merely stated one possible reason why the Scotsman has not allowed comment.

I have not made any racist remarks unless you construe a comment such as ".. suggest that the majority of the people would want the muslim community to be punished.." as being racist?

If you read the wording carefully you will see that I am not putting forward any racist view, rather a statement of fact/opinion. I even go further by saying ", even although the majority have no part to play in terrorism" which is a clear indication that I appreciate the difference between the majority of muslims who wish to live in peace with the world and those that could be described as fanatics.

Please read the comments carefully and put them into the correct context before accusing anyone of being racist.

In terms of the possibility or indeed probability of out and out racist comments being made on these boards I fully agree and indeed on one of the boards yesterday I made exactly that point. The Scotsman is entirely right in restricting comment as at the moment the vitriolic racist comments would dominate the boards in the immediate aftermath of such events. In a week or two once calm and order have returned then perhaps meaningful discussions can take place.

35

GM,

04/07/2007 08:32:08

@36

I'm simply tired of people who criticise islam being accused of racism...

Islam is not a Race, its a religion. You cannot be 'racist' for criticising a religion.

36

Melanthios,

Cold turkey-ville 04/07/2007 08:39:31

I've decided to cut down on the fags. Happy now?

37

Melanthios,

Cold turkey-ville 04/07/2007 08:40:21

#38. Melanthios, Cold turkey-ville 4 Jul 2007
"I've decided to cut down on the fags. Happy now?"

oops...wrong story. But I have.

38

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 04/07/2007 08:41:07

I still have to believe the problem is cultural and not the fault of the government.

Current spending on personal social services for children is £287 in Northern Ireland, £513 in Scotland, £429 in Wales and £402 in England.

So if the government spends so much on children how the people are still failing - the support is clearlt there..

Look at Glasgow and Dundee, the handout culture is rife.

Tweedmouth is right - for centuries there has been a Scottish Diaspora, sadly if the best continually go elsewhere - well, you end up like we are today.

39

IanW,

Germany 04/07/2007 08:42:14

GM #37 - True, but they could be called bigots I suppose.

The whole thing is to target the zealots and fanatics who cause the problems. Trying to identify them from the majority is the main problem.

40

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 04/07/2007 08:42:22

#37 + #36 this is probably why posts on these stories are disabled, it will descend into a flamewar.

41

DAVID,

Edinburgh 04/07/2007 08:54:00

#26 - absolutely spot on! It's nothing to do with the government, it's all abour the idiots at the bottom of the pile not taking responsibility for themselves.

42

Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 04/07/2007 08:57:33

East Dunbartonshire Council, one of the most deprived areas in Scotland, has recently claimed that it is the first education authority in the world to eradicate illiteracy in its schools? How does this square, in light of Barnardo's findings? Will Audit Scotland or some other Scottish Executive body verify this claim? Surely, poverty is directly connected to many factors, including lack of education, unemployment, lack of skills, and base ignorance? Several years ago, the Paris-based O.E.C.D. once described Scotland as a very wealthy part of the U.K. with its range of natural and knowledge economy assets, and its largesse from the Barnet Formula? Yet, it's analysts could not understand why there were still so many pockets of unemployment and widespread child poverty, especially in West, Central Scotland?
Could it be that Scotland is really a "fur coat and nae drawers" country with so much potential but
successive governments have failed miserably at the grass roots of society! Lachie Todd

43

Kristoferos T. Johnson,

04/07/2007 09:30:24

#44

These days poverty is basically down to being thick. Let's be honest, some people just aren't all that smart no matter how much education you throw at them. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of jobs anymore for folks whose only qualification is a willingness to do horrible work for low wages. We should just bribe these dregs to have themselves sterilized and be done with it.

44

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 04/07/2007 09:39:40

I really can't see what the problem is here.

Scotland has clearly out-punched Albania, Bolivia, Mexico and Upper Volta.

AM2 is correct - in the glorious light of these results why do so many Nats talk Scotland down? Where do they imagine Scotland should be sitting in these results?

We can't all be number 1!

45

Tourist Guide,

Edinburgh 04/07/2007 09:39:42

#36 IanW
Please stop being so disingenuous! Your dangerous drivel is mixing up "fact" and "opinion". I did indeed read your point of view with great care.

Please also read my post a little more carefully, and you will see that I exclude you and the other posters on this subject, irrelevant by the way to the topic of this thread, from racism - but, interestingly, I seem to have struck a raw nerve!

I await with interest to hear how you know that "the real feelings" of the Scottish people are different from statements put out by government and the Muslim community, and how you can "suggest that the majority of the people would want the Muslim community to be punished". Would you even like to enlighten us as to the form this "punishment" might take, and exactly WHY you felt compelled to hijack this topic in the first place?

46

hen broon 2,

ALBA 04/07/2007 09:42:48

The legacy of 5 decades of Labour hegemony and subservience to the fascist Union.
The Scottish people have finally woken up and elected a government who will lead them to prosperity and fulfilment unlike the stifling negative and discriminatory ruling elite of the sycophantic self serving cringing Unionists.
At last their treachery is being exposed as each day passes their grip on this nation becomes weaker and weaker. The pro Union propaganda on here is evidence of that desperation and fear as they slide inevitably into the dustbin of imperialistic history. Good riddance to the lot of you, you are an embarrassment.
Our children deserve so much better than to be treated in this manner. At last they will be able to achieve their potential.
ALBA GU BRATH.

47

Horrible Cankers in the Cyber Shebeen,

04/07/2007 09:46:18

Now why didnt I think of that Kristoffynose?...what a feckin excellent solution, which would of course, solve all known ills to mankind.......you git tae the front o' the queue boy!

48

Tory Heaven,

Edinburgh 04/07/2007 09:48:34

Child poverty (not a very good term, all children except child millionaires are poor, having no wealth of their own, a better term is surely children living in poor families) goes hand in hand with countries where a large proportion of the GDP is state generated, as in Scotland. Such countries are bad at generating wealth. So this problem is not going to be alleviated until Scotland loses its socialist, big govenment mantle.

As for the high rate of teenage pregnancies, gosh what a surprise! Who would have though that a land with declining religious adherence, newspaper shops full of publications sexualising youngsters, sex education for pre-teens, easy availability of alcohol, low levels of parental control (how is it so many children hang around the streets at night without their parents knowing where they are?), high levels of single parent households, and TV and music which proclaim the virtues of sex, would have had a high level of teenage pregnancy? Shocking! Until the Government tackles these underlying problems, the hand wringing and professed shock will continue but so will the high levels of teenage pregnancies.

49

Anne,

04/07/2007 09:54:35

#45 - you're brave!
(But right.)

50

Hugo, Ayrshire,

04/07/2007 09:58:30

I welcome this report even though I am dismayed by what it says, and it does make doleful reading.

It is welcome because it provides an international comparison using several measures. If the comparison is repeated each year then it should show if actions taken have the intended effects. No government deliberately tries to increase child poverty.

There may well be deficiencies in the data used, some unintended and others for the sake of convenience. For instance using UK figures which include Scotland. This may well be because the UK figures exist but not ‘UK without Scotland’ figures.

However, such deficiencies can, and should, be corrected – or at least formally recognised – in future releases of the report.

Matters might have improved for the children of Scotland over the last few years – and I hope they have – but there is still much room for improvement.

51

Stephen101,

Education please 04/07/2007 09:58:59

The problems are well engrained in Scotland. Correct about the dependency culture. Having been involved with a company based in Dundee, the people who 'worked' there had the ambition to get a job with the council, good money, and you can skive all day.

We can throw money at it, but somehow the attitudes must change, and that can only be through education. It will take time and courage but it is the only solution. Liberate our children from their narrow view of life. Do not accept the values of the underclass/neds etc.

I have commented recently on football topics here, challenging the fundamental stupidity of many Scottish footballers as the main reason the country is not successful on the international stage. We accept the illiterate, ill educated, ill behaved. We find our foreign imports can speak English better then some of these natives. I will not name names as that will distract. But if we allow role models for our children to come across as well paid neds with a bit of talent, it will be harder struggle to wean our children away from behaving as these heros do.

52

Tourist Guide,

Edinburgh 04/07/2007 10:05:34

#45/#51 Surely euthanasia is the only real answer.................

53

Stephen101,

Diaspora, yes 04/07/2007 10:06:44

#40....and Ireland used to have that problem. However they had a government that embraced the EU, to its own advantage.

British staff working in the EU have been frustrated at the UK government(s) repeatedly missing out on the opportunities available. Just because they were always a bit humpy about Europe and couldn't be seen to be too keen.

If Alec's lot can get its own route into Brussels who knows what can be achieved, and that will then be a reason for Scots to come home. Not because of some silly flag waving or emotion.

54

IanW,

Germany 04/07/2007 10:07:36

Tourist Guide #47 - Yes you certainly have struck a raw nerve as I object strongly to being called a racist as I do not believe that I am. I live and work in a multi-cultural environment where appreciation of others culture & beliefs is vital. In my office we have some 50 different nationalities working side-by-side and as for religion I don't know because it is not a criteria for deciding on whether or not someone should be a colleague.

Unfortunately you did not exclude me from the inference of being racist as you specifically mentioned my name in the same sentence. Unless you think your comment "that such a criticism could be levelled against any of the posters complaining about the lack of opportunity to comment, of course." does so. In reality by having the spacing and indeed the wording used it reads as being an ironic statement.


I have only ever suggested or given my opinion that the people of Scotland in the immediate aftermath of any terrorist attack would be outraged and that would colour their views. The government by necessity would be obliged to try to play down this outrage, therefore being at odds with the people. That is why I can say that real feelings are different.

I have not suggested that the muslim community should be punished, I have said that, again in the aftermath of any atrocity, it is probable that the majority would wish this, this is a natural human emotion, the desire for revenge.

I even went as far to say clearly that there is a difference between the majority who wish to live their lives in peace and the fanatics/zealots.

As for hi-jacking the discussion thread, that is very simple. In response to Alice S #5's comment "Third day now and still unable to comment on the terrorist related stories." I merely suggested that the only way to be allowed to comment was to hi-jack a thread.

Do you understand now?

55

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/07/2007 10:08:01

Pehaps demanding that companies pay real wages would be a start to addressing the poverty situation.

Unfortunately this will not happen as, low wages, Govt. means tested benefits and a dependency culture are the main means of political control.

One or other or all of these have been used since time immemorial to enhance the power and wealth of already powerful.

56

Stephen101,

Ok Tourist you go first 04/07/2007 10:08:47

Good one Tourist (56), you have the body, I have the syringe.

Can we name a time and place?

Good you realised you days are numbered with that attitude.

57

The west awake,

Argyll 04/07/2007 10:18:10

AM2 - "There's obviously still plenty of work to be done, particularly on health"
Not often I agree with anything you say, but I'm with you on that one.
Where I will differ now is in saying that now we have a real chance to do something positive and significant, since your Labour Party are on the subs bench, where I predict they will stay.
I see the Scottish Boundary Commission is looking at redrawing Scotlands Labour-created constituencies, which incorporate a significant Labour electoral advantage currently. More proof Labour will decline from now, their days are over. Good riddance, - lets get on with the new Scotland!

58

Miss H,

04/07/2007 10:18:34

50 Tory heaven - factually wrong.

I haven't seen this report yet - it does not yet seem to be on Barnardo's website - but I will bet money now, without having seen it, that the countries at the top of the list will include Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark and Holland.

Not only do these countries not fit your free market model, they also spend two or three times as much of their GDP as Scotland/UK does on children's and family services. Not on benefits - but on actual services, including first class and universally available childcare for the children of working parents. This is the key. Work is the best route out of poverty for children and parents alike.

The SNP government has made a start on improving childcare but we have a long way to go before we match the Scandinavian countries and therefore a long way to go before we can eradicate child poverty as they have done.

59

Tourist Guide,

Have you heard of irony? 04/07/2007 10:24:05

Nice one, Stepen 101 (#60), have you had an irony bypass?

60

Tourist Guide,

Edinburgh 04/07/2007 10:26:06

IanW #58

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

61

IanW,

Germany 04/07/2007 10:33:32

Tourist Guide #64 - methinks you are a bam-pot who cannot understand natural human emotions and reactions. Nor can you understand the differnce between a discussion and reasoned point of view and one which is nothing but a tirade of abuse.

62

Sedov,

Scotland 04/07/2007 10:36:01

So much for the benefits of capitalism - its failing us big time.

63

Tourist Guide,

Edinburgh 04/07/2007 10:40:43

IanW #65: Abuse is a two-way street.

I suggest you calm down and work out the difference between fact and opinion. Bye bye.

64

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/07/2007 10:42:13

#66, Sedov.

Elucidation required.

65

Tory Heaven,

Edinburgh 04/07/2007 10:59:20

#62 - Miss H, I can't locate the publication from Barnardo's either. Like you I can't find it on their website, or anywhere else which is odd. However before you conclude wthat I am "factually wrong" let's wait to look at the report can we!

I will say that I suspect your analysis of where the Netherlands, Denmark, etc will probably be in their table will be correct. A similar report earlier this year by Unicef (see http://www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/2007/02/19/103418... for the story) certainly placed the Scandinavian countries highly. But that report, like I suspect the Barnardo's one, was measuring a number of things:

• material well-being
• health and safety
• education
• peer and family relationships
• behaviours and risks
• young people’s subjective sense of their own well-being

So, it is not just the material poverty of children being assessed, but a range of factors. I don't think it's possible therefore using such league tables to say conclusively that they either prove or disprove my suggestion that socialist countries tend on the whole to leave kids langushing in poverty because of a lack of wealth generation.

I was of course thinking primarily of Eastern Europe when I suggested what I did. The Nordic countries are slightly trickier because there oil money is actually generating wealth which the state can spend, so the lack of private generated wealth can be masked. In Scotland, the failure of the state to generate any significant wealth, while at the same time bleeding individuals dry through taxation, cannot be so easily masked. Nationalists would say that that is the result of oil money being drained to London, but I'm not convinced by that. I tend to believe that the underlying malaise is that Scotland has ceased to become an enterprise count

66

Sedov,

Scotland 04/07/2007 11:45:34

#68 Frank- According to the Poverty Alliance - in Scotland www.povertyalliance.org the findings of a recent stud, too lengthy to mention here but two stats are:

* The share of the income of the richest ten per cent is the same as the bottom 50%
* differences in life expectency between the richest and poorest areas in glasgow can be up to 25 years for men and 15 years for women.

There is much more of course as well as an Action Plan to tackle poverty in Scotland including the need to build 30,000 new homes for rent over the next 3 years. The Poverty Alliance, although "non political" puts some radical measures forward to tackle poverty which should be supported as essential reforms.

On child poverty the recent Children Bill looks at measures to monitor families to identify needs and contact the caring institutions before the crisis begins. Blaming the poor is a pastime for many posters on these issues. This has to stopped or else we will not be able to eradicate poverty. According to the Child Poverty Action Group international experience suggests that a more coercive approach to benefits conditionality and parenting behaviour simple makes poor families poorer because blame always bears more heavily on the poor and this can be counter productive. Its no use saying " Its all their own fault" What this really means is that although we can devise reforms for a fairer society, which I support the problems will remain because the reforms are based within a failing capitalist society which can withdraw reforms when things get tough for them . Only by eradicating the profit system and replacing it by a planned society can working class becoming a class for themselves by themselves instead of being forced to create the surplus for the rich can a fairer society be permanent and child poverty be a thing of the past.

67

Vivienne,

Scotland 04/07/2007 11:47:04

There is no shortage of money, it seems, when looking into peoples shopping trolleys in Asda, only lack of intelligence at choice of what to buy. Some trolleys of couples with young children don't seem to contain anything nourishing at all but plenty of coke, crisps and other garbage. Families where neither parent works are handed everything on a plate so can't understand where the poverty story comes from. The more children you have the more you get. A local man with four children was horrified when someone said they were buying a new kitchen. He has never worked but moved house and got a new kitchen and bathroom fitted free before he moved in. His children are well dressed but cause trouble at school.

68

Keke,

Aberdeenshire 04/07/2007 11:57:22

Oil + gas + tourism = poverty? = bad management and greed.

69

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/07/2007 11:59:33

#70, Sedov.

Thank you. Would you, then, agree that my #59 would be a reasonable start to the process of eliminating povery?

#72, Elizabeth.

Would you care to comment on #59.

#71, MM.

You need a sextant.

70

Sedov,

Scotland 04/07/2007 12:17:24

#74 Agree entirely on #59, but that only the start as winning over the hearts and minds of the masses to rebel against wage slavery which is the only thing they have known, and build a society built on needs and ability is the first priority ,difficult as this is.
#72 vivienne- You are entilted to your views but this attitude is not helpful and achieves absolutly nothing to solve the problem. The first thing is that because you see things at ASDA etc you are in denial that there is a problem or its all down to the faiult of a particular family . ASDA is not life and never will be. All the stats and recent reasearch,based on fact, are shouting out to us that we have a serious problem of relative poverty in Scotland. To somehow challenge this is in some way an attempt to avoid the shame of us all in allowing this to happen in the 21st century. I know, because I deal with this on a daily basis, that much of the poverty is hidden. I am not a soft touch or a wooly liberal as I was brought up in a tough part of Scotland and I know the chancers in the community better than most but there are chancers in every walk of life. The fact that many families rely on means tested benefits and top ups on their wages speaks for itself. If we all stopped blaming people less and be more open minded that poverty is a sympton of a failing system then we might make some progress.

71

I'm no really here,

04/07/2007 12:21:02

#73 Can I add to that?
Oil+gas+Tourism+Financial Institutions+Whisky++++ = Poverty? = Bad Management and Greed.

#4 AM2 I wasn't talking Scotland down. I was talking Labour and before them, the Tories, down.

Since when can GDP measure of the wealth of Scotland when most of that GDP is accounted for as profits in London. Yes, we produce a lot, like worker bees, but the honey goes somewhere else.

72

Miss H,

04/07/2007 12:38:54

69 Tory Heaven

If you are talking simply about a measurement of material child poverty then the Scandinavian countries come out best .

Denmark, Norway, Finland and Sweden have the lowest child poverty in the world according to Unicef (and a range of other organisations).

http://www.unicef.org/sowc06/pdfs/repcard6e.pdf

The key to their success is, as I said, investment in excellent child and family services particularly childcare. This enables parents to work and trust that their children are being well cared for. (It is no coincidence that as well as having the lowest rates of child poverty the Scandinavian countries also have the lowest gender pay gaps in Europe. Maternal income is the single biggest factor in deciding whether a child grows up in poverty or not).

Support working parents and we will eradicate poverty. If left to the market this will not happen – take the USA for example where child poverty is even worse than it is in the UK.

Incidentally, the only Nordic country that has oil is Norway.

73

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/07/2007 12:40:50

#76, I'm no really here.

You should know by now that AM2 is like the "tin"; you get what's on the label.

What's on the label? SNP are the Antichrist: The Union is Heaven.

Like (St.) Paul he will distort anything to prove the validity of his own case. He cannot see that his "road to Damascus" is, like Paul's was, purely a delusion.

74

Miss H,

04/07/2007 13:01:05

Ian 58

I think you are quite wrong in believing that the majority of people in Scotland would wish to see all Muslims punished because of the actions of a few nutters.

Scottish people do not in fact believe in taking revenge first and asking questions later. That is the mindset of the terrorist, not of a normal person. Normal people understand that there is no excuse for punishing innocent people for the crimes of others.

The attacks on Glasgow airport and in London were clearly committed out of revenge for the UK’s invasion of Iraq. Those who committed them blame us for what has happened in Iraq following the invasion. It doesn't matter to them whether we as individuals are guilty or innocent. We are all the same as far as they are concerned and all of us are to blame for the actions of our government, whether we supported those actions or not.

The attitude you portray is simply a mirror image of that one.

You must have a pretty warped mirror however if you believe that is what goes on in most people's minds.

75

IanW,

Germany 04/07/2007 13:20:39

Miss H #79 - You are quite right that rational behaviour would not immediately lead to retaliation or revenge, etc. What I suggested was that in the heat of the moment, and I must emphasise that fact, i.e. immediately after the event human emotions forget rational thinking.

This why I said in my various postings that the Scotsman was correct in not allowing comments so soon after the event. By enforcing a reasonable time delay people would have the time to think rationallly again and to realise that the vast majority of people throughout the world only want to live in a society not poisoned by bigotry, racism,etc..

Hopefully this will allay your concerns that I am looking into a warped mirror.

76

Tourist Guide,

Edinburgh 04/07/2007 13:51:11

#80 Delighted that we can now see eye to eye now that you've moderated your opinion. There is of course a difference between being outraged, a normal and understandable human reaction in the circumstances, which even I can appreciate, IanW, and wanting "to punish the Muslim community".

Maybe no need for handbags at dawn after all!

Have a nice day.

77

IanW,

Germany 04/07/2007 14:10:38

Tourist Guide #81 - Correct no need for handbags at dawn.

As I have said throughout, and repeatedly, I consider that for the majority of people the immediate gut reaction would be one of revenge, i.e. punish.

As explained to Miss H and acknowledged by you this is a normal and understandable human reaction. I have always supported the idea that people should be given the time to calm down and consider the situation objectively and the Scotsman is playing its' part by blocking the possibility to comment as if it did not do this vile bigotry, racism, etc. may dominate rather than level headed thinking.

Hopefully once comments are allowed we two can discuss matters on how to handle terrorism, etc. in a way that benefits all elements of society.

Going home soon only 30 mins. to go.

78

dave evans,

Manchester 04/07/2007 14:16:15

These people ranting about the fact that it was all the fault of the English subjugating the Scots is a load of drivel. The Scottish adult addiction to drink, drugs and cigarettes, and a healthy dose of dependency culture, where nobody is qualified for a decent job...a la Glasgow...is much more to do with the high rate of child poverty.

79

Tourist Guide,

EdInburgh 04/07/2007 14:17:28

Oh, dearie me, IanW, you ARE an awful wee scallywag for putting words into people's mouths they have never said, and therefore cannot acknowledge!

"Outrage" does NOT equal "punish"! Check the dictionary.

80

Allan(handofgod137),

04/07/2007 14:17:29

If you truely want to end child poverty, then end the welfare culture endemic in this country. Not much chance of gordon brown doing this and alienating the scroungers who vote labour then!

81

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/07/2007 15:57:14

#68, Allah.

Your language is offensive and, as a consequence, will win no takers.

All that is needed is for people to take care of their own destiny. It is not necessary to "slag" others. Give people an alternative; encourage them to be involved, support them in their aspirations and then, we will achieve an acceptable society.

I may be a gradualist but, people cannot be bullied into change; they must see that it's in in their best interest. INVECTIVE does not do this.
It may be out of frustration, but it is still counterproductive.

82

Vincent W,

Edinburgh 04/07/2007 16:04:27

It's mainly cultural - the money is available but attitudes and values don't support the change required.

#26 - Tweedmouth's got it right on most counts, except that Scotland is exporting it's brains. You generally find that the best brains are more likely to be mobile and go where they can get on.

83

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/07/2007 16:11:47

Apology. To myself :-)


#68 should have been #86.

84

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/07/2007 16:13:52

#89, Vincent.

Little by little.

85

Vincent W,

Edinburgh 04/07/2007 16:16:29

frank - you're right we all have to work to change things and it will be little by little

86

Vincent W,

Edinburgh 04/07/2007 16:24:40

Young people miss out because too many parents see them as a burden not a blessing............

87

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/07/2007 16:30:04

#93 Vincent.

I think you are wrong , Vince; society sees children as a necessary evil. There is a difference.

88

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/07/2007 16:54:14

I am annoyed that people (especially SNP supporters) are not interested in this thread. This is one of the most important problems that we have in Scotland.

Poverty, real, or implied, is the greatest problem we have.

If we don't address the genuine problem of poverty, fiscal and/or social we are doomed (Dad's Army); we forget our ancestors and our humanity.

I am a socialist, not a communist. Unfortunately, the vast majority do not know the difference.

89

Allan(handofgod137),

04/07/2007 17:05:48

#88 So you'd be one of those people who has a problem with the plain unvarnished truth. I for one am sick of the whining beggars who moan about their "right to charity" and complain about the state not providing for the children they chose to have, when they are not prepared to give up their nights down the pub or sky tv. As for Allah, the hand of god tag is a literary reference, I'm an atheist. I just feel that people should be forced to take care of their own destinies, and that I should not be forced into taking care of them, I suggest you go back to reading the guardian, as my views and attitude are widely held out in the real world.

90

Miss H,

04/07/2007 17:11:37

Frank 95

I am intertested in it but sadly many people are not.

It is quite depressing the number of people who are saying money is not the answer.

Actually it is.

The most important thing however is how we spend that money. Not on handouts, that just entrenches dependency, but on providing the right support for families to work their way out of poverty and improve the life chances of their children as well as their own life chances.

This approach has worked in other countries: it can work in Scotland. It requires a very different mindset from anything that Labour has thus far offered.

That is also my answer to Master Mariner 71.

Anybody who has made any kind of study of poverty, even a very shallow one, will be aware that the UK tax and benefits system has a lot to answer for. Sadly, the tax credits model introduced by Gordon Brown is actually making things worse, not better.

Without the power to radically simplify tax and benefits we will find it very difficult to reverse the dependency culture, which has been created by government.

That doesn't translate as the Union is to blame incidentally. But it does translate as the Union is preventing us from taking the necessary action.

91

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 04/07/2007 19:06:37

The poverty level is measured as an annual income which is below a given percentage of the average national income. It therefore stands to reason that if fat cats get more the national average rises. Then the statistics show more people under the poverty threshold.

It is a statistic, about which we should not get over emotional, even if the statistical evidence seems to locate the poverty in areas closely associated with traditional Labour voting patterns.

92

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/07/2007 19:13:12

#96, Allan.

If you had read the thread, you will realise that I am not one of the "give them, give them" brigade.

I make no apology for what I say, or have said, "the unvarnished truth", on other threads.

I do believe that we, as a community, must take responsibility for what we are/what we believe in. We, believe me, are the ultimate arbitrers of our society. It is our choice; do we conform to what has gone before or, do we want to change it.

I believe, if we want to change things, we have a wonderful opportunity, now.

93

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 04/07/2007 19:15:34

Q. How many degrees does it take for water to reach boiling point?

94

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/07/2007 19:35:20

#97, Miss H.

Money is not the answer: wealth is.

I believe that it is, in using the wealth generated, that we can improve the lives of our people. I gather from your response that you believe, if not the same, something similar.
This is not in the dependency culture, means testing etc., (as you say) of the present Govt. but, by enabling people to achieve, or not to achieve, as they see fit.

It is important that everyone who believes in a just society speaks out; even better gets involved in the political party of their choice.

God forbid that anyone should see a Socialist as a Fascist. I have been called a Nazi many times because of my membership of the SNP.
Socialism is about the enpowerment of people: fascism is diametrically opposed.

95

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/07/2007 19:38:08

#100, Jock Tamson.

Depends on where abouts you come from in Ayrshire (Perthshire).

96

Paula,

04/07/2007 19:45:28

I cannot believe that they are still saying people on benefits are poor. No, by low income they should be concentrating on those with low wages, and wages haven't risen that much in the past few years but the cost of living has.

On benefits you don't have to worry about paying the rent, or paying council tax. You get a nice sum at the end of each week that is cash in hand for doing nothing, you don't have to leave your house. If you know how to work the system, and lets face it the majority of them do, you can make a nice little life for yourself, money for the pub, bookies etc. If the kids need anything go begging to the council and they fire money at you. When your kids are at school make sure they know not to dream of doing anything else because they can get housing and anything they want as long as they don't work and have no intention of working.

It is how my neighbours live. Incapacity benefit is the real cash cow. One neighbour just bought herself a new leather suite and laptop with money given to her for her child. While me and another neighbour were discussing where was the best place to get covers for a sofa as we have tight budgets after paying for everything else.

As long as this dependency on benefits lasts we will be at the bottom of every list. And yes, this is 50 years of Labour, to make us dependent on the state. Neighbour and I have a bet though, that no government will be brave enough to tackle these people, they are far too comfortable being pitied and made out to be poor.

97

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 04/07/2007 19:51:32

Shame about the fire attack on the mosque in Bathgate which was deemed too unimprtant for the Hootsman to report upon. Perhaps the area is not important enough or poor enough for mention in the light of the car bomb at an area in Renfrewshire.

98

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 04/07/2007 19:54:59

Regarding 104 - there's poverty for you. Non inclusion leads to poverty of the emotion. And that leads to further poverty.

99

hen broon 2,

LMAO at Comical Ali. 04/07/2007 20:38:13

#71 Master Bates, I see your spell in the Nuffield was a complete failure then.
Tides up, should you not be of to Millport or somewhere?
Or does your marine experience come from an oary boat on Huggie Loch?

ALBA GU BRATH.

100

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/07/2007 21:46:58

#103, Paula.

Don't challenge the stasus que with their own arguments. You're on a hiding to nothing.

When they can say that "means tested" benefits benefit them, then they will be honest.

I await their reply. I'll be waiting a long time, if they're honest.

101

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/07/2007 21:59:14

#107.

I'm getting as bad as the rest!!!!!!

First line:

"status quo".

I don't understand "stasus que", maybe it's subliminal Stasti.

102

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 04/07/2007 23:54:40

-- If you know how to work the system

There speaks some one who'd , I'd expect, have no problems filling out a generous expense claim. The stock market is a system and you can learn to play it. Ditto property. It's just that neither of these games interest me. I chose the real world of design-engineering. I'd say I work, communicate, with talented people rather than working some system.

I challenge many of you to exist on the dole. You'd still be the miserable grumps you were before only poorer!

Our current merger-manias don't create wealth, they destroy it as competent technicians are fired, cost cutting gets rife everywhere but in the salaries, bonuses and perks for CEOs. And, of course, customer service goes out the window.

103

Allan(handofgod137),

05/07/2007 14:29:31

#99 I believe it's time to end the welfare culture. What is the sense in encouraging someone who is unwilling to support themselves to reproduce. Too many idiots see having a child or five as the quickest way to getting more money and a bigger house.


 

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