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Published Date:
03 August 2007
SCOTLAND is seeing a growing divide between rich and poor, according to new figures, as health continues to improve in more affluent areas.
The Scottish Household Survey 2006 shows the number of people smoking has fallen to 25 per cent of the population. In 1999 the figure was 30 per cent. In the most deprived areas, however, the rate of smoking is 41 per cent, compared with 13 per cent
in the least deprived areas.

Maureen Moore, the chief executive of ASH Scotland, said the west of Scotland was the worst-affected area.

But she added: "It is not as easy as an east-west, north-south, or rural-urban divide. Both the lowest and highest rates of smoking are in the west of Scotland and urban areas can have lower rates than rural. What we are seeing is a growing divide in the rates of smoking between the deprived and affluent areas of Scotland."

Ms Moore said anti-smoking messages were not getting across in poorer areas.

She continued: "This gap in smoking rates between Scotland's most affluent and poorest communities points to a growing health-inequalities gap in Scotland that must be tackled."

Smoking is not the only health variable where deprived areas are worse off.

In deprived areas 41 per cent of people say they have good health, compared with 64 per cent in the least deprived and 53 per cent across Scotland.

The contrast between rich and poor goes beyond health.

The survey of more than 30,000 people showed those in deprived areas were more likely to suffer as a result of antisocial behaviour and fear of crime.

Overall, 73 per cent of those in the least deprived areas rated their neighbourhood as "very good", while just a quarter of those in the most deprived neighbourhoods gave theirs that rating.

NEIGHBOURHOOD WATCH

The fear of crime is worse for younger people, women and those living in deprived areas and cities.

A third of women think it is unsafe to walk alone at night in their neighbourhood compared to 12 per cent of men. And fewer women say fear of crime has no effect on their lives. The young also suffered more from anti-social behaviour. Sixteen per cent of those aged 75 or older experienced neighbourhood problems in the last 12 months compared with 42 per cent of 16-24 year olds.

Problems such as graffiti are higher in large urban areas than remote rural areas, while overall fear of crime increases with the level of deprivation.

FACILITIES HINDER RECYCLING

THE majority of Scottish householders recycle some rubbish and those who don't blame local authorities for lack of facilities.

Eighty per cent of households recycled either paper or tin in 2006, compared to 50 per cent in 2003. In South Ayrshire, 97 per cent of the population recycled, while in Glasgow only 55 per cent bothered.

However, among people who did not recycle, 50 per cent claimed it was because there were no facilities available and 10 per cent said recycling bins were too far away. In Glasgow, almost 75 per cent of those who did not recycle said it was because of lack of facilities.

LIFESTYLE VARIATIONS

SATISFACTION with lifestyle and levels of education varied with where people live.

Citizens of Edinburgh were by far the best qualified in Scotland with 40 per cent having degrees, East Dunbartonshire was next with 32 per cent. West Dunbartonshire had the lowest percentage, at 15 per cent.

The Islands come out as the best place to live, with over 70 per cent satisfaction compared to 35 per cent in Glasgow and 39 per cent in Clackmannanshire.

A third of people all over Scotland felt that their council does not give a high quality service. Dissatisfaction with the council tended to increase with younger people.

COMMUNICATIONS

NEW methods of communication are growing fast, while the old methods die out.

New Year 2005-6 was the point at which internet users overtook non-internet users.

However, there were significant differences between age groups, with only 7 per cent of those aged 75 and over using the internet, compared with 76 per cent of those aged 16-24.

While internet use has soared, the traditional telephone box has become almost redundant - just 9 per cent of people use them more than once a year.

VOLUNTEERING

DOUBLE the number of people in rural areas are involved in voluntary work than those in urban areas.

Overall one in four adults have taken part in voluntary activities in the last 12 months. It is more common among those who are self-employed or working part-time and among higher income households. For example, 45 per cent of adults in households with an annual income of more than £40,000 get involved.

In remote areas 41 per cent of people volunteer compared with 22 per cent in large urban areas.

The most common reasons for stopping volunteering work are lack of time or illness.

HIGH EMPLOYMENT, LOW WAGES

LEVELS of employment are high, but a small proportion of people earn high salaries. Just over half of all adults are in some type of paid employment, while 27 per cent are retired, 3 per cent are unemployed, 7 per cent are looking after the home or family, 5 per cent are in full-time education and 6 per cent are unable to work on the grounds of health or disability.

Just under half (48 per cent) of women are in some type of paid employment, compared with 58 per cent of men

However, just under half of households have a net annual household income of £15,000 or less. Only 8 per cent of households have a net annual income of over £40,000.

RELIGION

THE most common affiliation is with the Church of Scotland, with just over four in ten of all adults being of that faith. Fifteen per cent of adults are Roman Catholics, 7 per cent class themselves as belonging to other Christian denominations and 2 per cent of adults belong to other religions. Overall, a third of all adults have no religious affiliation, although this varies by age, with younger adults being more likely to have no religious faith. In couple households, both partners tend to share the same religion, and where the highest-income householder is identified as having no affiliation, the same holds for their spouse, in the majority of cases.



The full article contains 1079 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 02 August 2007 11:32 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish child poverty
 
1

Haggis The Great,

02/08/2007 23:54:25

The gap has always been there, will always be there and will widen as each year passes. You just have to face the facts. It will never get any better, no matter who governs the country@

2

MacIan,

03/08/2007 00:06:49

"Haggis The Great / 12:54am 3 Aug 2007
The gap has always been there, will always be there and will widen as each year passes. You just have to face the facts. It will never get any better, no matter who governs the country"

There you have it. Scotland's problem in a small paragraph, by someone who really believes it.
Until we convert, get rid of, or somehow convice such people hide in a cupboard and never come out, Scotland will never prosper. Such poverty of spirit, such a waste of a life.

3

TheScotsman,

Scottish Borders 03/08/2007 00:41:58

There will always be low paid jobs & people who don't want to work.
There will also always be ambitious, driven individuals (from all backgrounds) who set goals and work tirelessly to achieve them.

So until we pay burger flippers £40,000 a year and motivate the terminally unemployed, Haggis the Great is pretty much spot on.

4

MacIan,

03/08/2007 00:49:31

God NO, not two of them!!

5

Andra, Dundee,

03/08/2007 00:50:59

#2 MacIan
We used to be able to reduce the gap by trade barriers - which was fine for the lower end of our spectrum - but it did unseen damage to the poorer people in other parts of the world.
In the modern high tech age how do we provide opportunity to those with the lowest educational ability? And the least motivated in our society are undercut for manual jobs by harder working East Europeans.
I don't know the answers but it seems to me that problem is becoming harder to solve - I suspect we are going to have to learn to live with it.

6

Guga II,

Rockall 03/08/2007 00:57:55

The state Scotland is in is a direct result of the "union dividend", and the long term neglect by the Labour Numpty Mafia in councils in the west of Scotland. These numpties were only ever interested in keeping people's votes to maintain their own power base, and in lining their own pockets.

It will take a long time to change things, especially as many in Scotland still insist on voting for the New Labour numpties in the mistaken belief that they are actually interested in helping the people, and that they bear any resemblance to the Labour Party of Keir Hardie.

7

Andra, Dundee,

03/08/2007 01:17:17

# Guga II
So have you got an constructive suggestions?
Do you want more or less barriers at our borders?
What do we do about the unmotivated in our society?
Your policy of blame will not solve any problems.

I think we somehow need to do away with our belief that the state will provide all our needs - people need to understand that if they don't encourage their childen to stick in a school so that they will get a job, then they will create their own poverty in later life.

8

MacIan,

03/08/2007 01:23:37

It's not just a question of there always being the poor, or the lazy. Scotland's problem is that there is not enough of the philosophy that ambition and and drive to makes life better for oneself, and therefore the rest of society. The great Scots tragedy it's the soul destroying view of too many of us that it's the responsibility of "someone else" to change things, or that it does not matter what one does , nothing changes. EVEN WORSE, that politics does not matter.

This is easily illustrated by the view that "other people come in and take our jobs" - no they don't - selfrightous indignant Scots GIVE jobs these away instead of doing one or two of them themselves.

Guga 11 is right, the Labour party has infected us with a horrible virus of entitlement, and it will degenerate us and/or destroy us more nicely and more effectively than any economic war with London (presently on-going). Has anyone ever asked the question about who exactly benefits from a depressed Scots polulation. It's not the Scots.

9

Statsman,

03/08/2007 01:32:24

What is Maureen Moore an expert on? She is as dumb as a box of rocks. Her opinions are worth nothing. Stop giving this media hanger on any publicity. This is getting as bad as those parents of paedophile victims that are turned into heroes by tabloids.

You even named her as powerful in your influential Scots? If idiotic mantra was dynamite, maybe.

Or maybe that other mantra of "lowest common denominator sells" is the real reason she gets her subsidy of quotes.

10

Guga II,

Rockall 03/08/2007 01:34:45

#7 Andra. I have a few constructive suggestions, including a review of the handout culture.

All the dole bludgers should be given the option of working or doing without, and the DLA bludgers should be given similar treatment. As for single parents who are given handouts and get priority on housing lists, that should end also. The handouts should stop if they don't start looking for work when their children go to school.

Alcoholics should not be getting social security payments, especially the additional £10 a day to buy booze. They, like junkies, should be given the option of "cold turkey" treatment or doing without.

I'm all for helping people in genuine need, but there are too many out there who, thanks to the trendy lefties, will neither work nor want. To make it worse, there are people who genuinely need help and can't get it because the bludgers are using up all the available resources.

11

MacIan,

03/08/2007 01:37:39

Apologies for the poor quality of the writing. I get incensed by the proposition postulated by labourites, uinionists to the core, that the Scots are by nature dependent sloths, incapable of anything except being easily led. And worse, that there is no point in trying.

No wonder Mr. Salmond is so admired by those who believe otherwise.

12

Andra, Dundee,

03/08/2007 01:54:54

#11 MacIan
wait a minute - there you go again - blame the unionists. "it's the English to blame for us no having good jobs" - it's that kind of tosh that make Scots think they can't make anything of their lives until someone else does something.
Stop - take a look at yourself - get a grip.
This issue is nothing to do with Independence - it's as you said in #8 - too many of us have an attitude of entitlement.
Scotland used to be one of the most enterprising and hard working parts of the UK - we need to get back to that position by building respect for ourselves.

13

George in Kansas (USA),

Small town [12k] in Kansas 03/08/2007 01:59:44

Distribution of income is measured by what is called the GINI coefficient or index. The index ranges fro 0 to 1. Zero indicates perfect equality of income and 1 indicates perfect inequality, i.e. 1 person gets all the income and everybody else. This is separate from the absolute level of income, which is you could have a low GINI and low incomes indicating that everyone was poor.

In the United States the government separates our economic data by MSA or metropolitan Statistical Area, so it is possible to correlate an areas GINI index with its quality of life indicators such as murder rate, suicide rate, crimes against persons, average life span, etc.

While the correlation is not perfect, it is high, indicating that the greater the GINI index, the lower the quality of life. Internationally, the same relationships appear to hold. That is a high national GINI is correlated with low quality of life measures.

The US has the highest GINI index of all the OECD countries, and it continues to increase.

While I cannot say there is a direct cause and effect, it appears that as your national or area GINI index increases, the quality of life falls. Again, this is independent of the absolute levels of income.

Something to think about as you read another news article detailing criminal activity.

For additional information google on <GINI Scotland> for c. 123k hits
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/stats/ses2002/ses2-08.asp
http://angusnicolson.blogspot.com/2007/07/gini-coefficien...
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2007/07/18083820/0


google on <scotland "gini" correlation crime OR "quality of life"> for 988 cites

14

Eric D,

Glasgow / Flanders, Belgium 03/08/2007 02:13:29

The biggest problem we have in Scotland is 1) wage
deflation 2) branch economy.
A recent study by the Scottish Exe recently highlighted that skills is not a factor in the countries low growth. In fact, Scotland has a highly skilled workforce.

Wages for the unskilled over the last 10 years have hardly budged thanks largely to immigration. Unskilled migrant labour has anchored unskilled labour at legally minimum wage level. At the same time real inflation has been rising at approx 3-4% per annum. Take these factor together and the unskilled real standard of living has dropped drastically since NL took power. Of course unskilled migrants have very little effect on skilled professional wage level ( just as well otherwise they wouldn't be so enthusiastic about migration otherwise). These are the people benefitting mostly as the wage deflation has allowed record low interest rates and helped the property boom. So it isn't very surprising the country has become increasingly economically polarised. The low skilled are getting poorer ( hence the new phenomenon - the working poor ) whilst the middle incomers become markedly wealthier. One consequence of this is the large numbers on incapacity benefit and as long as wage deflation remains zero and inflation high these numbers will swell. Example, new junk food shop opened Braehead recently exploying 10 people all of them migrants working max 22 hours per week on minimum wage. Which married Scot with children can live on 110 pounds per week . The migrants can do it because they are young, single and mostly live 6 to a house and have no obligations. They can also claim income tax back in a lump sum if out the country > 12 mnths ( in most EU countries).Without migrants the normal labour market laws will kick in, salaries at the bottom will have to rise and people will start to come off benefits - ie paid the market rate. This was actually happening before 2005.
Recall Germany,France and Italy have

15

MacIan,

03/08/2007 02:42:59

"#11 MacIan
wait a minute - there you go again - blame the unionists. "it's the English to blame for us no having good jobs" - it's that kind of tosh that make Scots think they can't make anything of their lives until someone else does something."

It is utterly impossible to take from my statements this calumny. The only thing one can blame the English for is doing what comes naturally to those in charge. I do, however blame unionists, and they are Scots. The likes, no doubt, of you.

16

MacIan,

03/08/2007 02:49:11

No: 15 comment relates to12. Andra, Dundee / 2:54am 3 Aug 2007.

Unionists who are unionists because it's so cosy being subserviant and kept, debase us all.

17

Suck-McCrunchie,

Doomster Hill 03/08/2007 02:57:40

The solution in finding a cure for the widening wealth gap, is to stop it being people on good salaries attempting to identify the causes and find the solutions.

Anyone finding themselves with the above remits should be made to live on benefits for six months, not just that amount of money, but see the entire procedures for six months. Then suddenly the causes and solutions will be staring them in the face.

18

Haggis The Great,

03/08/2007 05:01:47

I repeat:
The gap has always been there, will always be there and will widen as each year passes. You just have to face the facts. It will never get any better, no matter who governs the country.

I fail to see how its ever going to be erradicated, you can debate until you are blue in the face, the fact is a Toilet Cleaner or Dustman aint gonna get paid more than £15,000 a year, probably a lot less and your MD's and CEO's are going to continue to be paid ridiculous amounts of money 20 or 30 times more than the cleaner and dustman. So will somebody please explain how the hell you are going to stop the gap from getting bigger!

19

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta CA Welcome to California ..Now go home 03/08/2007 05:24:44

Man with the future of Scottish Opera in his hands

Gap between rich and poor Scots widens

Hey dudes if you can afford Opera you can't be broke ,

So quit that shrill squawking , and quit scribing your reams of nonsense.
Or as Queen Victoria would shout:

"Shut you colonial claptrap oratory"

This is 2007 AD not BC

Happy Opera Day

20

Mcsnagpile,

S.E.A 03/08/2007 05:49:07

Some civilized countries are now considering a minimum wage for all. They realize that there will always be people unemployed, people living in the social periphery. With such a system it would give some decency and fairness for all citizens and give some security and dignity in their own country. The cost would be offset by doing away with unemployment benefits and social benefits. This would also give more work opportunities for people who want to work.

21

Haggis The Great,

Dunfermline 03/08/2007 06:10:36

#20

LOL

22

Gugu,

South Africa 03/08/2007 06:38:27

And we thought we had problems of gap widening in our country between rich and poor our problem in this country is everthing is black empowerment. If you were previously disadvataged basically everthing is so called done for you. If you are white don't even think of trying to get a job in the government or any of the municipallities and as single white mothers in this country believe me is not easy even if you have the qualifications. Even white men to day with qualifications are looked over.

23

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 06:38:44

MacIan, independence, unionists, the whole content of that enormous chip on your shoulder, has nothing to do with this issue.

Check out what is happening to the gap between rich and poor in any of the SNP's favourite comparison countries - you know, the small successful independents like Ireland, Norway and the like. Then check out what is happening in every other capitalist country in the world.

We are experiencing the inevitable effects of capitalism. This is how it works. The last time I checked, the SNP were not intending to change that aspect of Scottish life.

24

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 03/08/2007 06:43:16

We no longer have a work culture and therefore are no longer able to work our way out of these situations.

We no longer have a learning culture. Seeing to be doing well academically is no longer "cool" therefore we cannot learn our way out of this situation.

We continue to live in a legacy of the past i.e. ship yards, docks, busy industries, work a plenty. Something we often accuse Westminster of being like.

We have made our "caring" society too easy by way of handouts and the price of what used to be attanable through hard work, such as tv's, good clothes and cars, are cheap and abundant. Even a person living on job seekers allowance has a good tv, probably some sort of personal transport, a digital box and all the tracksuits they can shake a stick at.

Given that, what else is there to work for? We cannot afford housing in our own country, or even rent. We know we cannot build a house in the country unless we are very rich and we cannot progress through education as we cannot afford fee's etc.

So what next for these areas? We are responsible for removing their opportunities i.e. careers etc by way of stopping industry (whose fault is it really?) and plugged the gap with easy-to-get-handouts.

Somebody who lives in the legacy of heavy industry (to export to the rest of the world) will be reluctant to go work in a call centre.

25

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 03/08/2007 06:44:23

Morning Dunc.

26

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 07:14:12

Morning Dave. Thank Crunchie it's Friday.

27

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 03/08/2007 07:15:59

You're telling me!

28

IanW,

Germany 03/08/2007 07:38:22

Hi Dave, Duncan - Last day before well earned holidays.

Be good to get the teeth into a nice discussion. Dave I think you made some good points. It is up to us to change the way we think about work and unemployment.

One other question we should also ask is - Is it important to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor?

By this I mean that the way society is (capitalist) we will always have differences. Is it important to reduce that gap. If we do are we really giving any incentive to better ourselves and for those with drive and initiative to take chances which could result in employment opportunities for more people.

We have perhaps to look at what conditions the 'poor' live in, poverty is relative and has different interpretations. My family and I are technically classed as poor in some measures. Why? because we do not own a television. The fact that I earn a fairly sizeable salary (way above the national average) does not enter into some measurement guides. We do not have a television because we choose not to, we are too busy doing other things to waste time on TV.

29

pehman,

sussex 03/08/2007 07:46:28

1Haggis,
Why do you bother getting out of bed in the morning

2 + 8 MacIan,
Great posts well said, I cannot believe the lack of will in these people to change their lives for the better

10 Guga,
Another great post with positive comment, why is it only the Nationalists with this positive attitude. I think here we have found just exactly who big a task the SNP faces in getting the Scots people to believe in themselves, if they wont, no one else will

30

pehman,

sussex 03/08/2007 07:53:11

19 Rulesnotrulers,
Every child is born with the same will to achive, would you prefer everyone to be dressed in the same green pyjama's working for the machine.

It's the dispondency inflicked on our kids by numpties like you and haggis the loser that tell kids don't bother it's no use trying

31

Media 1,

cape town 03/08/2007 07:59:04

The poor need to make more efforts to close the gap. We cannot have one set of wealthy people giving their all to further enhance their lot, whilst we have another group doing little to join them.

Come on the poor, get your fingers out.

32

Bobo,

03/08/2007 08:04:27

#24

Your capacity to ignore the unusual circumstances Scotland finds herself in relation to other countries of similar size, resources, etc. appears to be limitless. Have you ever been to Norway, Finland, Ireland, Iceland, etc. Are you really saying you believe that they have problems of inequality and social dislocation which are in any way comparable to ours. Have you ever seen the quality of life surveys carried out by international organisations. Have you ever noticed which countries come top of the list and which come way down it?

What is it about these facts that makes you so determined to ignore them. Why is it that you want to condemn your fellow country people to shorter lives, fewer oportunities and more poverty? Is your British identity that precious to you?

And why can't you get it into your head that when someone says they blame unionists for the state this country is in that they don't mean English people, they mean complacent, petit bourgeois, British nationalists like you.

33

mr angry,

ayrshire 03/08/2007 08:05:49

The lazy sods should help themselves, cut the smoking , buckfast , etc and get a job. Problem is they get too much on the dole to be bothered working. Limit dole to 1 year maximum and then if they don't get a job they have a state job picking up the litter and dog crap for minimum wage. This might focus their minds on the fact that they are not entitled to sit on their ar**s sponging off people who work. If they don't like the pay get a better job , many people do. Also don't complain that there are no jobs, since people are flooding in from eastern europe and getting jobs.
Point is that these are lazy gets or even worse they are theiving by getting dole and working on the side.
Stop giving them an easy life and they may wake up and look for a job, otherwise make them work for their handouts.

34

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 08:05:57

#30 Very good points. I think this issue tends to be hijacked to score cheap political points when in fact when you look at it closely it's not half so clear cut.

If we look at the New Labour years, 97 to now, it's undoubtedly the case that the gap between the richest and poorest has widened. But it's also the case that the number of people living in poverty has been significantly reduced. The mean "wealth" has increased and the median "weath" has increased, but most importantly the mode "wealth" has increased too.

So in fact what is driving the widening of the gap is not the people at the lower end getting poorer - they are actually getting richer. The gap is growing because the people at the top end are getting richer a lot more quickly than the rest.

It's important to worry about the gap, because inequalities in society drive social tensions and contribute to social stagnation and alienation. But I think it's far more important to be concerned about reducing absolute poverty by increasing the opportunities of the very poor, rather than worrying about capping the incomes of the very rich.

35

mr angry,

ayrshire 03/08/2007 08:06:43

should have been "thieving" in above

36

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 08:08:19

#34 Stop it. This is not an independence/unionist issue. The problems of poverty and the gap between rich and poor are UK problems, EU problems and world problems. They will not be solved by changing our constitutional settlement.

When people say they blame unionists for this issue I simply dismiss them as idiots.

37

Bobo,

03/08/2007 08:09:05
38

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 08:15:42

#39 You mean that statistic that shows that Scotland is doing marginally better on child poverty than the UK as a whole? Erm...

39

GM,

03/08/2007 08:17:12

If Glasgow were removed from the stats -

% of people smoking - <1%
% of people claiming benefit - <1% and only because they really do need it
% of people living in poverty - 0%


Glasgow always skews the figures basically because it is a cesspit of chainsmoking, benefits claiming, scrounging, poverty-riddled labour voters.

40

Bobo,

03/08/2007 08:17:20

#38

Well you're the idiot, I'm afraid. Scotland's position is extremely unusual. A small country with masses of resources and huge gaps between rich and poor. Have you ever been outside Edinburgh? Whenever I visit one of our rich neighbours and come back here my blood boils at how mismanaged this country is.

It's your complaceny that drives me crazy. Do you really believe that our contsitutional situation and our ridiculously low scores on international league tables have no connection with one another. Try punting that one in Dublin and see how long you'd get away with it. Or suggest to people in Finland that they'd be better off having London or Moscow manage their affairs and check out the reaction.

41

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2007 08:18:15

#38 Duncan

Correct. The SNP harbours socialist instincts as much as Labour. The result? Mediocrity, lack of personal ambition and individual responsibility and a shocking dependency on the state.

42

Bobo,

03/08/2007 08:25:00

#40

Well, if that's the best you want to aim for that's up to you. Personally I find it disgraceful. You know that this isn't about positions on a league table it's about people's lives. Your smugness betrays your own total failure to understand what that means. You think mouthing platitudes is the same as doing something. In reality you're paralyzed politically by your own deep seated belief that British is best. You've no capacity to imagine anything better than what we have now and that I suppose is the tragedy of Scotland - that it has in it so many people as limited in their vision and unambitious in their goals as you.

43

MoragtheToerag,

Leith 03/08/2007 08:27:59

I'm afraid no. 1 is right.

We're off to the West Coast for a couple of years because we got a deal with a friend to house sit for a couple of years so we can save up some money.

To emigrate.

There's NO chance of getting a family-suitable property (two bed terrace with garden) here to rent long-term without having to worry that your BTL landlord will turf you out every six months if you are a working poor family who didn't get on the the property 'ladder' - there's a baby boomer concept if ever there was one! - years ago.

None. WORKING. Never took a 'handout'.

That's how it is, take it or leave it.

Well, then, leaving it it is, sadly.

No one cares as long as they are fat and happy.

44

Bobo,

03/08/2007 08:28:29

#43

You've attached yourself to the wrong "ally". Duncan is a well known Labour voter.

45

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 08:28:52

#42 Scotland's position has absolutely nothing to do with it!

Just look around you at the other industrialised, capitalist nations in the world. Look at the USA, that paragon of industry and productivity. The gap between rich and poor there is the highest it has ever been! The same story is happening all over the capitalist world. It is the absolutely inevtiable result of free market capitalism.

You want to see the hand of the big bad union in every problem we experience. That is a ridiculous position to adopt.

46

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 08:31:15

#44 This is laughable. No capacity to imagine anything better than we have now - the Labour party has done more to reduce poverty in Scotland than any post-war government. child poverty has been cut by a third in ten years. It barely inched downwards over the previous forty. Your obsession with independence has completely blinded you to the reality on the ground.

47

Bobo,

03/08/2007 08:31:45

#43

And by the way, you can't "harbour" an "instinct". The point about instincts is that they are just there - part of you, there from the start, etc...........

48

Bobo,

03/08/2007 08:35:30

#47

Oh, I can't be bothered. I've had all these discussions with you before and you have revealed yourself on each occasion to be a dyed in the wool British nationalist who is deluded into believing that that is the same thing as being an international socialist. What's the point? You are the Marie Antoinette of this board I'm sorry to say.

49

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2007 08:40:34

#48 Bobo

Is 'instinctively socialist' OK then? Wish I was as clever as you. Pompous p***k.

50

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 08:42:34

#49 I am not a nationalist of any persuasion. I am a rationalist. I'm sorry you "can't be bothered", but in reality I think you just can't answer my argument. This wealth gap exists in every capitalist country in the world. The answer to the problem lies in the global economy, not the constitutional settlement of the United Kingdom.

Or did you want to deflect the argument onto a set of league tables in another article? Why is that? We are talking about the wealth gap here. Let's address the issue at hand.

51

W Smith,

Middle East 03/08/2007 08:47:27

1) Talking about the union dividend Mr Salmond is on two salaries!

2) Talking about Scots abroad not being able have an opinion - a Mr Sean Connery has always been welcome to give his opinion from overseas.

Cash for honours is it? That's give cash to the SNP and you have the 'honour' of giving your opinion while not staying in Scotland.

The SNP voters won't mind me claiming 'equal rights' then in this respect - eh?

3) Hong Kong prospered under 'British rule' while Mugabe's independant Zimbabwe has been a disaster.

Pulling down the 'butchers apron' does not guarantee economic success.

Pre-1990 Ireland proved that and it was ditching socialism, not the union jack, that sparked the economic boom.

(I wonder if Bill Wilson the communist SNP member would agree!)

'British rule' for Hong Kong meant the freedom to set their own corporation tax at 15%.

Freedom to have their own currency, HK dollar.

Freedom to have their own stock market, the Heng Seng.

Freedom to declare Hong Kong a 'freeport' making it easier for shipping companies to turn Hong Kong into a container hub, etc.

The result? One of the hiighest number of millionaires by percentage of population. One of the richest areas in Asia unlike communist Vietnam, Cambodia, etc.

The Butcher's Apron never proved to be some kind of blockage to economic growth for Hong Kong.

Alex Salmond, the ECONOMIST, doesn't know how to differentiate between the main economic issues (corporation tax, freeport status, etc) and the non-economic side issues (Union flag).

GAME OVER FOR THE SNP!

52

Bobo,

03/08/2007 09:06:39

#50

Yes, that's better. Funny you call me pompous when you were clearly deluded into thinking your trite, clicheed and smug little contribution to the discussion was providing readers with some incisive and thrilling new way of understanding and deconstructing Scottish party politics.

53

Nick_Byrne,

Glasogw 03/08/2007 09:09:04

Bobo have actually been to Ireland?

Start at Dublin and head west and tell me there's not huge inequality.

http://www.lehigh.edu/martindale/publications/perspective...

Try reading "The Celtic Tiger in Distress: Growth with Inequality in Ireland" - Dublin did well out of Ireland's economic boom and a coule of other towns, but visit the west coast or even Athlone and see how great things are there.

Or how about Sweden? Which is as bad as America:

http://www.hhs.se/NR/rdonlyres/AEF7C03F-215F-4023-86DD-13...

In fact Sweden's great example as there aee still huge social inequalities despite all the "oil money" it shows cleary the problems aren't economic.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid...

And for god's sake could people learn another word apart from Numpties?

This is not New Labour's doing -it is as Duncan said the result of capitalism and, well, Glaswegians.

54

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 09:11:08

#54 What did you tell me old chap? Was it something about Nicola Sturgeon's populist interference in Health Board planning being bound to cost lives in the long run? Oh, sorry, wrong story. Odd that there are so few people commenting on that one...

55

GM,

03/08/2007 09:24:51

@59

so few commenting because its not a story...
its a bundle of spin and presumption dressed up to look like Ms Sturgeon herself has turfed some terminally ill cancer patients into the street.

56

GM,

03/08/2007 09:25:40

SNP performance to date -
-------------------------

Ordering a financial review of a tram scheme no-one wants that even in consultation phase has cost £100m, then making sure that if there are cost over-runs, the folks who want it (i.e. City of Edinburgh Labour Councillors) will pay for it.

Removing tolls from the Forth and Tay bridges (passed by vote May 2007)

Releasing suppressed Labour executive reports that identify a potential of £1bn savings

Proposing freezing council tax payments for 2 years

Carrying out an investigation into why a proposed clean power plant scheme creating 1000 jobs was stalled by Labour

Proposing upgrading the A9 to dual carriageway along its length

Discussing the possibility of reviving Scottish deep coal mining

Refusing permission for new nuclear power stations to be built in Scotland

Opposing the introduction of blanket stop and question powers for the police in Scotland

Requesting Scotland represent its own (and the UK's as a whole) fishing interests in Europe

Plans to nationalise Scotland's only private jail

Putting forward plans to Prevent ship-to-ship transfers in the Forth estuary - this plan came to fruition on 28th June 2007 when powers to veto such transfers were passed.

Engaging positively with the Royal family

Highlighting the Blair administration's contempt for the scottish judicial system and devolved government

Scrapping the £2,000 graduate tax (succesful 13th June 2007)

Saving accident and emergency care based on patient need.

THOUSANDS of chronically-ill patients are to have their prescription charges scrapped

Refuse to enter discussions on the burial of nuclear waste in Scotland.

Appoint a team of 11 of the finest economic minds in the country (including 2 Nobel laureates in economics) to advise on economic matters. This received cross party support. Only 2 of the 11 are recognised SNP supporters so po

57

GM,

03/08/2007 09:25:50

Labour performance to date -
----------------------------

Agreeing with SNP policy

Infighting

Name Calling

Tony, Gordy and Joke Macdonald all going in the huff with the new First Minister

Riding roughshod over the scottish judicial system and devolved government by making more 'oil deals' overseas.

Golden girl Kirsty "where's ma holiday Jack"? Wark throwing a hissy-fit on newsnight

New report (FSB) shows that Scotland is the worst performing small country in western europe - it lies 10th in the table of 10 small countries (page 13 of report). Quote from page 8 - "However, Scotland now scores well below all other small countries."

Undermine the budget setting role in the Executive simply for political gain rather than any notion of it being better for Scotland.

Attempting to scrap accident and emergency care based on a centralisation model that takes no account of patient need, rather simply a budget saving exercise.

Relying on political editors from various bias media journals to do their job for them.

Getting suckered into another political and financial own goal with the Edinburgh trams 'cost amendment' making sure the residents of Edinburgh alone will pay for any cost over-runs.

Relying on a biased, and clearly huffy, Professor A Midwinter to alone challenge the concept of the new council of 11 economic advisors to Scotland - more sour grapes than Kirsty Wark can choke on.

Refusing to applaud the First Ministers speech at the opening of parliament because he 'dared' mention independance.

Labour transport spokesman Ricky Henderson quoted that the Forth Bridge Toll Plaza should not be demolished "In case a future administration might want to reintroduce tolls"... nice votewinning policy from Labour there.

Criticising the SNP for having the temerity to even talk about introducing a white paper on a referendum for independance - so much for

58

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 09:27:30

#60 Interesting perspective. I read it as a damning indictment of the populist electioneering of the SNP. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks I suppose.

59

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 09:29:42

#61 and #62 Your little lists have been laughed out of contention in the past. Come back when you can say more than "Proposing ...", "Discussing ...", "Requesting ..." and "Planning ...". Or better still, don't.

60

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD,

Dar-Es-Salaam Tanzania 03/08/2007 09:38:39

The world of the elites and the rich call this TRADE UNION or THE GLOBALISATION or “We are rich and can go to the bottom of the ocean to look for the gas or the moon to plant a flag, but to help the dying countries of African continent, no sir, that is beyond out reach. We just do not look at the poor. Sir. This is the cry allover not with you only and we will perish in the same manner, rich will be rich; poor will be poor and that is it.

61

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 09:44:49

#65 In 10 paragraphs you have failed to make a single logical argument to support your position.

The gap between rich and poor is ever widening in every single capitalist nation in the world. It is the way the system works. It is far more important that we reduce poverty than that we reduce this gap.

If you actually have any logic to your argument, please expand on this statement:

"An independent Scotland would have ensured a steadier, more equal econimic growth and a more even distribution of the country's wealth."

How? Show me an example of a country that has done this.

62

HMFC,

03/08/2007 09:58:11

#65 Nice story.

Have you thought about writing as a career? You could make up losts more in your fantasy world.

63

neil f,

fife 03/08/2007 10:01:39

This is surely a problem that can only change very slowly - I mean in generations.

This is a patronising and, for some, an uncomfortable truth, but the problem with poor people is, generally, that they do not have sufficient self discipline and drive to get them out of the benefit trap. A lot of them, I am sure, have the ability.

Unwittingly, Labour and now the SNP will keep them there with their welfare policies.

64

Everything you do is a balloön,

03/08/2007 10:03:36

Duncans right, its all over the world and nothing much to do with the Boo Hiss English.

As a relatively well off person I'd just like to say : tough.

65

Everything you do is a balloön,

03/08/2007 10:05:10

May I suggest that the poor of scotland help to keep themselves that way through consumption of bevvy and fags, creating stress which merely compounds the problem further.

66

Everything you do is a balloön,

03/08/2007 10:13:27

Zoom , you are an idiot.

Do you honestly think a change of government or a change to Independent country status would suddenly get everyone off their backsides and marching along behind a scottish flag, on their way to a glorious scottish revolution ?

67

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 10:14:58

#70 You are really toiling here, and it's not surprising. There is no weight to your argument at all.

What do mean by "resisting" the "extreme capitalism" of the USA? What sort of capitalism do you propose? The SNP has been talking about a low-taxation high-growth economy. Any idea what that will do to the wealth gap?

And what on earth do you mean by stating that in France, Germany, Italy, Norway, Sweden, Austria and Switzerland, "social rupture is by far less, if it even exists at all". Are you claiming that the wealth gap is smaller? Or are you desperately obfuscating due your lack of any evidence? I strongly suspect the latter.

68

Everything you do is a balloön,

03/08/2007 10:18:46

Duncan , Duncan , Duncan , Duncan ....

Easy, easy, easy,easy.

69

Maurice,

fife 03/08/2007 10:24:15

I once read (cant remember where) a statistic that said if you lived in a house with a hinged door, had an active bank account even in overdraft and running water, you fall within the top richest 8% in the world. Scotland has no idea what poverty is. Having imegrated from Africa i am still apaulled at how spoilt people are here in the 1st world. People on benifits for poverty living in council houses and watching sky with a bottle of buckfast and 20 L&B's and a wee block of hash. Off to mcDonnalds for tea after.

70

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 10:27:10

#74 No. Your assertion is utterly false. The reason that Scotland has a historically high poverty rate in comparison to other countries in Western Europe is the same reason why the UK as a whole has a historically high poverty rate. It's called World War 2.

71

Everything you do is a balloön,

03/08/2007 10:38:21

Zoom , why dont you become an MP.

By the way , who told you we want to eradicate poverty ?

72

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 10:41:27

#82 Hahaha. Have you ever watched Stephen Colbert, the US satirist? I think you would relate to his concept of "truthiness". He ascribes it to the Bush administration, and it is broadly the idea that even if all the evidence disagrees with what you think, even if everybody knows what you're saying isn't true, you can still rely on your gut feeling to decide the truth, or "truthiness" of your assertions.

I'm sure what you say has great truthiness for you. But it is a crock.

"And figures and polls and surveys are nothing in relation to self-experience."

Hahahahaha.

73

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 03/08/2007 10:46:23

#79 What a load of tosh.

So all the wastrels in Glasgow aren't in employment because Scotland is part of the United Kingdom?

Nationhood has nothing to with someone's personal success - I don't work for the "Greater glory of the Union", I work to support myself and if i had one family just like everyone else.

I very much doubt the averge alcoholic unemployed dole scrounger would get off his/her back side just for the Saltire.

74

GM,

03/08/2007 10:47:12

@81

Duncan, who politically has been in power in Scotland since WW2?

You getting it yet?

75

GM,

03/08/2007 10:49:04

@85

Zoom, Duncan seems to have fallen into the 'every other country has the same gap so we are ok after all' pit.

what a piece of nonsense but typical of labour and unionists not to even think there is a problem... simply aloof to it all.

76

Xena - Warrior Princess,

03/08/2007 10:50:56

#83 and #87 what a complete pair of tw*ts - you are both unpleasant nasty people.

77

Guga II,

Rockall 03/08/2007 10:52:47

#29 Lost At Sea. You really are being quite thick. I have told you that I have lived and worked in Australia, as well as a great many other countries. I have also told you that I am Scottish, born and bred, and I live in Scotland. I therefore consider that I am entitled to comment on Scottish affairs, which is more than can be said for some of the people on these boards.

Incidentally Lost At Sea. The terms "pom", and "whingeing pom" are used to mean Englishman, not Scotsman.

78

Everything you do is a balloön,

03/08/2007 11:04:02

Thankyou Xena , I like saying the unsayable , I like stating some things that are so blatantly obvious no-one can see them.

I have no interest in eradicating poverty , Neither do most politicains or political parties , neither did Adam Smith.

An underclass is necessary. Who is going to do the dirty work ?

79

Everything you do is a balloön,

03/08/2007 11:06:54

Or to put it another way, if the people doing the dirty work were comfortable enough not to need to do the dirty work , no-one would do the dirty work.

80

'Hezza,

03/08/2007 11:06:57

its great being rich! :)

81

MtnKat,

Oban Bound 03/08/2007 11:11:18

I have to agree with those who realize that the entitlement attitude is destroying the country. Exchange it for the acheivement attitude.
I have a decent job in management, but still clean houses for extra money. Do I like having to do that? What do you think? It just happens to be a fact of life. If I want the extras I have to make the extra effort.
"The poor will be with us always." Recognize the quote?
The opportunities are out there, but you don't start at the top. You work your way up and earn it. Earn it seems to be an alien concept these days.

82

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 11:11:22

Zoom, you are so full of hyperbole that you can't even follow your own argument.

This is an article about the gap between rich and poor. You have segued into a diatribe against poverty. They are two very different things, as evidenced by the fact that the gap between rich and poor has been increasing while poverty has been massively reduced.

I have never laughed at the plight of children in poverty. To suggest that I was doing so is both underhand and grossly unfair. I was laughing, as you well know, at you.

You dismiss facts in favour of you own personal anecdotes from living in different countries. You ignore the benefits of the last ten years of Labour government, which has reduced child poverty by a third after decades of stagnations. And you have the gall to call me parochial?

This really is a dialogue of the deaf.

83

Maurice,

fife 03/08/2007 11:16:25

91. Guga II, Sadly, and I do mean sadly, Pom or rather POMS refers to "prisoner of majestys service" and relates to the prisoners sent to Aus from britain all those years ago. Scots were very much part of that crowd.

84

The Strategist,

03/08/2007 11:17:39

The boss of Rolls Royce Sir John Rose said this in a recent letter to the FT.

"If the UK is to succeed in the global economy, the current debate about manufacturing must increasingly focus on how we can develop competitive companies with the scale and reach to penetrate world markets. "

As I've said before.. If you want to solve or even part solve poverty and provide real opportunities to those who want them and indeed to provide children with an incentive to do better at school so they can also compete for those opportunities then in Scotland in particular we need more companies of the type Sir John is talking about.

85

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 11:19:32

#106 There you go again.

Poverty has been reducing in the same period that the gap has grown larger.

How many times do I need to say that before you actually hear it?

86

Everything you do is a balloön,

03/08/2007 11:25:11

What Duncan says is correct. Poverty has indeed been reducing, hence the reason we have large numbers of Polish and Euopean workers "filling the gap" to do many of the more basic tasks in the service industries.

Sorry for trolling , EG expressing outrageous opinions like "it will never change" and "it's not necessarily a bad thing".

The world has finite resources, we cannot all be rich. Darwinism is alive and well.

Even Switerzland has an underclass of mainly immigrant workers to perorm many of its service industry tasks.

Now , does anyone have any ideas how to reduce the gap between rich and poor ?

Assuming we want to , of course.

87

MtnKat,

Oban Bound 03/08/2007 11:33:58

#110
Methalions, with all due respect, I have always found unemployment statistics to be misleading. They don't take into account how many jobs are on offer.

88

Everything you do is a balloön,

03/08/2007 11:37:43

The audience needs to be arrested, held and their emotions engaged. Something that is interesting is less powerful than something that makes you angry or shocked. The consequences of this are acute. First, scandal or controversy beats ordinary reporting hands down.

Tony Blair on the Media , june 12 2007.

89

Everything you do is a balloön,

03/08/2007 11:38:56

Tell us what you plan to do about it then Zoom.

90

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 11:41:03

#112 I can only assume that you are unable to argue logically. Poverty has been reduced in Scotland in the past ten years. Your gut may not tell you so, but hard evidence does. Child poverty has been cut by a third. Pensioner poverty is also down significantly. Come back to me when you have managed to understand and accept that simple fact.

And no, I wasn't laughing at children living in poverty. Give up the ad hominem attacks, they just make you look foolish.

91

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 03/08/2007 11:43:21

#95 Might I refer you to the thread on crystal meths - compassion a plenty there by well known Nationailst supporters.

And I suppose you are the epitome of altruism?

Using a descriptor of people we all know exist is hardly a messure of compassion or lack of it.

The point still stands - independence will do little to change the work averse culture in Scotland.

Unkless you're suggesting a truely communist independent Scotland?

What needs to change is the policies of tax redistribution and work incentives and even then they will still be haves and have nots as that is the how economy works.

92

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 11:50:53

#118 The SNP fought the last election on a platform of lowering taxation and encouraging entrepreneurship and economic growth. This is a recipe for increasing the gap between rich and poor. I thought you were an SNP supporter?

93

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 12:09:49

#122 Point me at where I said that the level of poverty was "not so bad" you lying demagogue. I said it had reduced massively in the last ten years. Which is a fact. I never said it was "not so bad" nor indeed any words to that effect. I believe that action against child has been most necessary, and I have also observed that policies like family tax credits and the minimum wage have been effective in cutting it by a third over the ten years of the Labour government - something which you repeatedly ignore in your increasingly shrill and untruthful postings.

You are absolutely committed to ignoring what I say and arguing against statements of your own invention. This is a great shame.

94

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 03/08/2007 12:17:48

#118 Zoom

In other European countries, you can find a taxi driver living next door to a Doctor. I know this because I've seen it.

Thats empirical evidence and cannot be used as factual evidence in furthering your arguement. It is the same as if I said that my doctor also worked as a taxi driver and that he lived in a house with himself. It means nothing. Also, may I ask why you capitalised the occupation doctor and not the occupation taxi driver; do you give more importance to one occupation over the other. If you do, you are accepting capitalist economic theory that states that for the economy to be successful a underclass is needed.

95

Everything you do is a balloön,

03/08/2007 12:20:47

I could argue that its the great working class that have the most children in our society (upper middle classes mostly working their balls off and being more interested in personal pursuits) . If they are poor in the first placem, its not a great idea to have kids and perpetuate the poverty.

Fix that if you will.

96

Scars,

Hamilton 03/08/2007 12:51:57

Zoom,

I totally understand what you are getting at and in reading between the lines of the threads, I think you are fighting a losing battle as your working on a different plane to the counter arguments.

Your view would seem more macro than micro and I believe in what you are stressing to be totally true. I think this itself is a hurdle that must be cleared before the type of argument you put forward can be considered progressive and altruistic. "Woods for the tree's spring to mind".

I genuinely think your argument may be lost here for no other reason than its bigger than what is being argued back .....

Job well done !

Q: Is the point to argue over whether poverty has been reduced or whether its the fault of a particular cultural Gravatai of any given city ? Is the point not that of aiming to reduce the inequality gap irrespective of what has led us to this door?

"If it aint broke don't fix it" .. Don't see anyone saying its not broke. So, as everyone knows what we get when we continue to do what we have always done, maybe its time to think out of the box and go down new paths independently of what has come to pass since the aforementioned WWII; where we left the halcyon days of empire behind and faced a world now motivated to rule itself and determine its own destiny.

People are quick to point out "the Glasgow problem", but try Methil, Raploch, a whole host of areas and there are equally as many problems endemic in our society. The point is its there for everyone to see and that seems to beyond question that it exists. So, we see it and can put it down, which to me suggests that it is deemed undesirable. If we have a congruent society with shared values, we would look to improve its lot and elevate the general level of society to something more in tune with what we perceive as acceptable level; where all have a common ground to build from and that the nation should maybe think more

97

The La Gomera Ashley Nicole Hilton Fan Club,

03/08/2007 12:55:03

Zoom , Balloon may be stupid but he isnt trying to flog a dea horse to death like you are.

I cant see how you plan to eridicate poverty by harping on about the SNP (who are in power by the way).

You're a bit of a lightweight yourself if you think that everything can be "solved".

Ya Daftie.

98

The La Gomera Ashley Nicole Hilton Fan Club,

03/08/2007 13:04:51

1. Stupidity
2. Stupidity
3. Stupidity
4. Stupidity
5. The Krankies.

99

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 13:07:39

#131 I am sick and tired of this. Read it for yourself:

http://www.poverty.org.uk/

The last ten years have shown a marked drop in child poverty in Scotland. If you want to call me a liar, you will have to call the ONS, the Scottish Exec, the UK government and the UN liars too. Or, alternatively, you could just accept that what I have been saying about child poverty all along has been true, and you have been talking rubbish.

100

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 13:13:28

#132 You congratulate Zoom for arguing on a "bigger picture" level. I fail to see the benefit of this if it results in gross distortions of fact, as Zoom's argument has.

If anyone cannot see the woods for the trees it is Zoom, since he only sees one solution to every problem in front of him - independence. It is a ridiculous position to adopt.

101

The La Gomera Ashley Nicole Hilton Fan Club,

03/08/2007 13:15:16

Zoom , you have no idea what an intellectual is.

What an Intellectual isnt

1) Someone Who spends their time writing on a newspaper website
2) Someone who thinks all the worlds problems can be solved

102

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 13:22:06

#143 Yes, inequality. Not poverty. The subject of this article, if anyone can remember, was the gap between rich and poor, which as I have said has grown at the same time as poverty has decreased.

I feel the need to reiterate what I said in #36:


I think this issue tends to be hijacked to score cheap political points when in fact when you look at it closely it's not half so clear cut.

If we look at the New Labour years, 97 to now, it's undoubtedly the case that the gap between the richest and poorest has widened. But it's also the case that the number of people living in poverty has been significantly reduced. The mean "wealth" has increased and the median "wealth" has increased, but most importantly the mode "wealth" has increased too.

So in fact what is driving the widening of the gap is not the people at the lower end getting poorer - they are actually getting richer. The gap is growing because the people at the top end are getting richer a lot more quickly than the rest.

It's important to worry about the gap, because inequalities in society drive social tensions and contribute to social stagnation and alienation. But I think it's far more important to be concerned about reducing absolute poverty by increasing the opportunities of the very poor, rather than worrying about capping the incomes of the very rich.

103

Scars,

Hamilton 03/08/2007 13:29:24

141 Duncan

You may notice I never once made reference to politics or union. Irrespective of what my political slant may be, I don't think the nature of this argument is one of a union or no union. Its about Scotland, which is the thing that is most important to me and I am saying that Zoom could see many of the bigger picture issues and that his argument was that independence would be the precursor to change... Which I don't necessarily disagree with.

However, that is not the argument at hand and for me, its the notion of nation that is important and we are as much our own worst enemies as we can be truly great.

104

Scars,

Hamilton 03/08/2007 13:31:04

The main reason for the decline ?

The age of enlightenment: We peaked, the world was changing and the lure of adventure spread the very thing that we had become to the four corners of the globe.

The industrial revolution: We benefited as being the hub of the then world, we reaped the benefits for our ingenuities, the rest of the world though, with far more natural resource, was always gonna catch up, we needed to develop and keep ahead.

The rise and fall of empire: We built it and we benefited, the problem was this was never proletarian and only the rich really inherited anything of importance, everyone else just enjoyed the ride on someone elses play ground.

The shrinking planet and global marketplace. We are but a wee bit hill and glen, to compete on a truly global scale, you need an infrastructure and a culture to do so, we don't .

The fact that we are at periphery of a nation whose demograph is bottom heavy and the ever diminishing need for this same demograph to plough Britains now limited resources to keep the south at the top table, much to the detriment of those in the North.

105

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2007 13:34:29

#148 Zoom

Glad to see you admit that the argument shouldn't be linked to independence. To do so is a complete red herring. Independence,per se, will not prove the panacea you think for all that is wrong with Scotland. It would make no difference to the poverty gap if Scotland left the Union and continued to follow the failed socio-economic model pursued by Labour. I worry that the SNP are Labour-lite when it comes to socio-economic policy. If we are to make a success of independence we MUST lose the sense of dependency held by so many of the underclass.

106

The La Gomera Ashley Nicole Hilton Fan Club,

03/08/2007 13:36:25

Realist.

107

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 13:37:15

#149 And my problem is that what you call "bigger picture issues" I call empty rhetoric based on lies and deliberate distortions. I guess it's all a matter of perception. :-)

108

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 13:40:49

#151 Methalions, if your point is that poverty exists and is a problem, I don't see anyone arguing against it. You're absolutely right.

But I strongly recommend that you put those stark figures into context for yourself and others. Look at the change over time, and look at the success that Scotland has had in tackling this problem. Because bad as those figures are, the legacy of the Thatcher/Major years was far, far worse.

109

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2007 13:44:32

#159 Zoom

But surely it is pointless for the country to become independent if a sense of individual dependency continues. I don't know where Methalions gets his statistics but, if they are accurate, don't they make you weep? A second and third generation of the underclass with no sense of worth or achievement, merely dependancy. The State as parent and constant provider. If that doesn't change, it'll be the same old same old with a different flag.

110

Scars,

Hamilton 03/08/2007 13:51:11

Duncan ..

Yes, I suppose it is indeed all a matter of perception. Not sure of the history of you two and your argument and I respect that I may be ignorant to facts prior.

As for perception, it would appear that the general perception or "concensus" is that something is not right. So, if we can maybe put the peripheral issues aside, the crux is how to we construct a more equal and productive society, removing these seemingly obvious undesirable factors as we go ?

What would the general perception be on how we achive this if this is indeed what we would aim to achive?

111

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2007 13:54:25

#163 Methalions

Don't even joke about it. There are people out there who vote for the SSP.

I won't stir the pot again by mentioning the Union and questioning to what extent it has or has not held Scotland back. Ireland is constantly held up as a role model for us. But interesting that in the the first 30 or 40 years after it left the Union it remained as relatively poor as it always had been. It was only when it dropped a socialist economoc model and embraced the free market that it has come on leaps and bounds. Still has a growing gap between rich and poor though.

112

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 14:00:20

#166 For me the answer to your question starts with taking an honest look at what has and hasn't worked in the past.

If ever I point out a policy of the UK government which has been successful in this regard - working tax credits, benefits overhauls, the minimum wage - I am met with absolute stonewalling from those whose answer to everything is "Labour bad, SNP good".

Unless such a debate can happen honestly with people accepting that good things are happening and have happened, then the debate is worthless.

113

GM,

03/08/2007 14:01:08

@152

just look at those stats for parts of Glasgow!!

almost 2/3rds in some cases!

and yet they *continue* to vote for more of the same with Labour.

Its easy to argue that Labour give them the benefits culture but this from a position 50 years ago when glaswegians voted labour as an international hub of shipbuilding and other manufacturing industry.

Oh how times and labour have changed!

114

Scars,

Hamilton 03/08/2007 14:01:30

158 Salem

thank you. I also agree with you that to be retrospective is indeed far easier than introspective.

For me the thing that is missing is a catalyst. Maybe seems obvious, but I think we are a nation divided by legacy and delusion. The wealth gap is obscene and unfortunatley we seem to live in a culture that seems to think someone booting a football around a park for 90 mins is well worth a hard earned £100k a week. The perception of "society" has fallen and we live in a surreal world seemingly devoid of the logic we need to succeed !!

115

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2007 14:04:52

#169 Master Mariner.

Precisely! The fact that Labour is a Unionist party isn't the problem. It's the fact that it ensures its grip on power by ensuring its 'client' voting fodder are dependent on the State, whatever its name.

116

Scars,

Hamilton 03/08/2007 14:08:49

Zoom / Duncan / Salem ..

have to go ... Its holiday time and I am out of here !

have enjoyed our debates and points . Irrespective of whether we agree or disagree, if we can find a common accord, we can always go forward productively. "Nobody said it was ever gonna be easy" .. buggered if i can remember who sang that, but they nailed it .

Enjoy your debating gents . Might check later to see if you all got something good going ...

take care
Scars

117

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 14:12:34

#174 You are being very very selective with your statistics you naughty man. Where is Tower Hamlets and the other London boroughs?

118

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2007 14:12:46

#174 Methalions.

As you know, statistics can be made to say anything. There's a council enclave off the Kings Road in Kensington and Chelsea where I'm sure the figures are comparable. But nowhere can match the levels in the West of Scotland. The figures are shocking and dispiriting.

119

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2007 14:19:08

#179 Zoom

I admire your optimism. I hope you're right if you think that national independence will encourage individual independence, but I hae ma doots. It'll take a root and branch change in the current Scots psyche to change the direction and economic performance of our country.

120

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2007 14:24:06

#180 Salem

Your argument is almost schizophrenic. The Unionists are using dependency as a means of oppressing us; i.e. shake that off, encourage individual resposibility and we can be free as a nation. Then reintroduce the heavy hand of the State by renationalising everything! It doesn't compute.

121

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 14:27:19

#179 If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.

122

The Strategist,

03/08/2007 15:01:47

#121. Salem

1. Thatcher's deregulation of the City
2. Thatcher's deregulation of the City
3. Thatcher's deregulation of the City
4. Thatcher's deregulation of the City

and

5. Thatcher's deregulation of the City

It's actually quite interesting if you look at the statistics on the trade deficit.. Within two years of the so called Big Bang in the City trade in goods started going heavily into deficit.. It reached around £19bn by 97 and now runs at over £80bn.

This came about not just because of the reduction in manufacturing but cheap credit and of course so called globalisation which led to cheaper goods, higher profits for UK companies involved particularly in retailing and of course financial institutions - banks etc..... Globalisation and in particular the export of manufacturing jobs was also by caused in part by pressure from the City for higher and higher dividends.

In reality what's happened is that Govt has handed over control of our industrial strategy to the financial sector. The consequences of that have been and will continue to be lower investment levels and the transfer of wealth into a relatively small number of hands.

This isn't capitalism. Capitalism is supposed to be creative and inventive replacing old with new and providing opportunities. In fact I don't know what it is..... But I know it ain't working..

123

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 15:04:57

#184 Zoom you have completely ignored my argument all day. Why should I bother now?

One of the problems Scotland has is high levels of relative poverty. The introduction of the minimum wage, working families tax credits and an overhaul of the benefits system have worked together to reduce this problem significantly on a UK-wide basis since 1997.

Unless and until you can accept that that is true, and that it therefore gives us the best blueprint so far for how poverty can be reduced, then you are just stonewalling.

124

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2007 15:12:03

#186 Dick

I sense a good oldfashioned unreconstructed socialist here. It's time we grew up and stopped this blinkered demonisation of Thatcher. Sure, she did some bad things but until we face the fact that she changed many things for the good, we won't progress. Do you really want to hand back control of the industrial sector to the politicians? I'm sorry but I wouldn't trust any of them to run a whelk stall. Few of them have a hinterland in economic reality. The likes of Hunter, Farmer and the Gloags should be left to their own devices, not interfered with by the State.

125

The Strategist,

03/08/2007 15:16:14

#187 Duncan in Edinburgh...

Yes but none of this should have been neccessary if the economy was growing properly and the qaulity of jobs on offer was sufficiently high.

In effect the Govt - and therefore taxpayers - are having to cough up for the failures in the private sector and as I said in my post 186 the effective transfer of wealth into a smaller number of hands.

126

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2007 15:21:08

#190 Zoom

I'm sorry, but you seem to be a one trick pony here. Independence, independence. It'll all be great after independence. But you're offering no other solutions. Just suppose we leave the Union. Waht do you propose to o that will dismantle the depndency culture that holds us back?

127

Pilar la Guapita Escocesa,

Harrogate, Sunny Yorkie-bar in yer poakett 03/08/2007 15:27:09

up and doon and roon aboot lookin' fur Daphne Broon.
Unfortunately her brother is the Primer Ministro of Inglaterra ... and like his predecessor el senor nump-Blair ... he doesnae like the wirrkeenk classes ... nae luck aw youse Wegies oan the Broo!
es una lastima 'n'at ... isn't it just!

128

Pilar la Guapita Escocesa,

Harrogate, Sunny Yorkie-bar in yer poakett 03/08/2007 15:29:30

I say Gordon old chap ... could us wee scumbags fae Govan git some mair Broo-money ... we are skint and Krimbo is coming oan.

129

Geomac,

Scotland 03/08/2007 15:34:10

Having ploughed my way through this blog, I'm glad that I'm rich!

130

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 15:36:01

#190 What do you mean it hasn't been reduced?

Go to http://www.poverty.org.uk/

Go to the Scotland link.

Read it for yourself.

Methalions has posted hard evidence of current poverty levels. I have posted hard evidence of the changes in poverty levels in the last ten years. You choose to see his as proving something, and mine - well, you choose not to see mine at all. What's that about then?

131

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2007 15:38:48

#195 Salem

But why do we need a post-independence government to get involved in the oil industry or any other industry for that matter. Big companies are whores, lets face it. They'll conduct business in a country no matter the complexion of the government. BP et al. will stay if the economic environment is condusive to their making profits. Business can be curtailed from its worst excesses by governments but, however much you pretend otherwise, too much regulation and businesses will move elsewhere.

132

Miss H,

03/08/2007 15:50:55

The main things that need to be done are:

Take control of our own economy.

Radically simplify the benefits system and integrate it with tax system.

Smaller class sizes particularly in the early years to motivate children.

Make lifelong learning actually lifelong, accessible at all ages. People will have to train and retrain to keep up.

Accessible affordable childcare as in Scandinavian countries so that both parents can work.

More affordable housing with low rents for low paid rather than current housing benefit system.

133

Miss H,

03/08/2007 15:52:12

197

You are both right - absolute poverty is reducing but the gap between rich and poor is now wider.

Gini index and all that.

134

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 15:53:02

#200 And do you believe that this will reduce poverty, reduce the wealth gap, or both?

In my view these sound like relatively workable policies which could continue to downward trend in relative poverty. But I don't think they will have any effect on the gap between rich and poor.

135

Miss H,

03/08/2007 15:55:33

187

I will take issue with you on the question of tax credits.

Tax credits have been a complete nightmare for many people. A bureacratic mess.

If the money invested in tax credits had had been invested in affordable childcare we would have made a much much bigger impact on child poverty.

Tax credits do not help working parents!!!!!!!!!

136

Miss H,

03/08/2007 15:59:41

203

Yes. They will reduce dependency which is what causes long term intergenerational poverty.

137

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 15:59:52

#204 I think I understand what you mean, but you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. For many years, tax credits worked very effectively to enable people to return to work both part and full time. It would be great to be able to spend more money on targeted childcare schemes too, but a lot has been spent, and a lot achieved.

138

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2007 16:01:30

#201 Salem

Ownership won't change. Scottish companies registered here will stay here and pay tax here, current UK companies may choose to register in Scotland and pay tax in Scotland, BUT only if the environment is a good one for carrying out business. And that means less state interference. The point is we want small government. My fear for an independent Scotland is the same socialist anchor holding us back. Free the underclass from nanny-state dependence. Force them to make the most of their brains and talents. Then, like Sir Tom Farmer and Sir Tom Hunter, they can contribute to a naturally growing economy. That's how to make poorer people better off.

139

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 17:14:45

#211 Methalions, all of your quotes about poverty are actually about inequality. We have agreed that the wealth gap is wider than it has been for a long time. But poverty is lower. Rowntree agrees this too. It is enormously frustrating for this to be disputed

140

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/08/2007 17:38:21

#216 As I said in response to your #118, the SNP fought the last election on a platform of lowering taxation and encouraging entrepreneurship and economic growth. This is a recipe for increasing the gap between rich and poor, not reducing it. How do you square this circle?

Across all policy areas, Labour has far more focus on the redistribution of wealth than has the SNP. The SNP is a pro-Europe, free-market, low taxation party (in its current guise). If you really want to reduce the wealth gap, you have picked a very strange party to support.

141

The Strategist,

03/08/2007 18:56:24

#189 Draco...

"I sense a good oldfashioned unreconstructed socialist here"...

Do you? Well I'm sorry to dissapoint you.

#199 Salem...

The impact it had on Scotland - and the UK - was summed up neatly by the the boss of the CBI when he said in this newspaper recently:

"In today's rapidly changing economic world order, we must create more global enterprises if we want the UK to remain in the top tier of world economies. Yet in the past 20 years the number we have built from scratch has been low."

142

Guga II,

Rockall 03/08/2007 19:38:19

#147 Lost At Sea. Like I said, give me your e-mail address or, preferably, your phone number, and I'll prove to you where I am. Incidentally, where are you?

143

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 03/08/2007 20:01:37

#220 Guga II

!47 has made it clear, he is lost at sea and unless he has got a mobile with him he has:nt got a phone number.

144

MacIan,

03/08/2007 20:01:45

TO:
24. Duncan in Edinburgh / 7:38am 3 Aug 2007

There are such sad, defeated people writing these posts, you are an example.

I'm going to repeat myself:

It's the Scots fault if the Union has failed them, by not dumping it. It's a Scotsman's fault if they are poor, unless there is genuine need for mental or physical reasons whereupon help must be available. The class system has always been less rigid and with fewer steps than the English one, but it is hard to eliminate class when the greater unit (England) actually seems to wish to perpetuate it within thier own country.

The socialist movement was at the very centre of my families history, but it was recognised by even the most ardent that socialism and the labour party ware tools to advance the "working man" - it was never intended to be a free ride.

Socialism has become a burden, just like the union and it is time to change it. That is all.

145

Conan,

Here 03/08/2007 21:08:48

Class envy, class envy, class envy - oh, did I mention class envy? Anyway, class envy, clsss envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, clsss envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, clsss envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, clsss envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, clsss envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, clsss envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, clsss envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, clsss envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, clsss envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, clsss envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, clsss envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, clsss envy, class envy, class envy, class envy, class envy.

I think the basic problem is class envy.

146

The Strategist,

03/08/2007 21:22:20

#221 Salem

That's the point I'm making.. There are nothing like enough... and... those that there are still relatively small and vulnerable.

#225 Salem

Steady!! I've no particular love for RBS but I do not want to see it "burn bigtime".. I would however be happy to see it get a moderate kick up the rear end and a change of management and strategy.

147

The Fly Fifer,

fife 03/08/2007 22:25:48

work hard be paid well,

148

Teeny Totty Turqouise Hexagon Bun,

03/08/2007 23:12:16

This is funny as hell. All of you deciding how to "make poverty history" and not one comment from anyone who claims to be in poverty.


 

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