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Published Date: 17 July 2007
OOR ain tongue could be taught to bairns in schools, if campaigners get their way.
The Scots language should be put on a par with Gaelic, according to some responses to a Scottish Executive consultation into how languages are taught.

Responding to A Strategy for Scotland's Languages, experts warned that sounds such as the "vela
r fricative", as in loch, are disappearing.

Matthew Fitt and James Robertson, who run the Itchy Coo publishing company - which published Scots versions of Roald Dahl's The Twits and Robert Louis Stevenson's Kidnapped -

said the annual tradition of children reciting a Rabbie Burns poem was not enough.

They said: "In a country which shows such affection for and pride in its national poet, it is ironic that its school children are not able to fully understand and appreciate that poet's work."

Many Scottish children do not know that "brae" means hillside and "burn" means stream, they claimed.

Author Janet Paisley, who writes in Scots, said teaching the language in schools was long overdue.

She said: "I had to do an enormous amount of work to relearn my language as a writer, and I'm still angry about that."

Published in February, the draft language strategy includes the principle that the Scots language should be treated with "respect and pride".

The Executive strategy also says Scots should be encouraged within the curriculum.



The full article contains 232 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 16 July 2007 9:55 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scots language
 
1

albanoch,

Kyoto... Japan 17/07/2007 01:08:00

It wasn't that long ago that children were sent to elocution lessons to learn how to "speak properly" which suggests the rest of Scotland must have been speaking improperly...I'm so glad that the days of the Anglofied cut glass accent are going fast if they haven't gone altogether and it's no afore time iether.
The Scottish accent{which had to get rid of if you wanted to succeed} is just one of the many sources of our national inferiority complex...don't be ashamed of it! Don't try to sound like an Englishman...because your not! Just be who you are and sepal the natural way you do whithout any shame or blame or worry.Here's tau us! Wha's like us..gie few an' they're aw drunk!

2

Scullion,

Canada 17/07/2007 01:26:22

It seems odd that there has to be a Scots version of Kidnapped which was written by a Scot.
I'm not convinced that Scots is not simply a dialect of English. If it is, then why isn't every local patois taught by every English speaking country in the world?
Some Urban American black educators pushed for the teaching of Ebonics in their schools several years ago to better reflect their society. It was laughed down by the very people that they thought it would help. As one young man said, "When IBM use Ebonics (or Scots) then I'll learn it."
Gaelic, however, is a completely different language and therefore a completely different matter.

3

Tricia,

17/07/2007 01:30:47

If the EU gets involved you could end up with "Scots only zones" where no English is allowed on signs etc. In parts of Ireland, they did that.

4

big d,

Glasgow 17/07/2007 01:40:03

Scullion, do a web search on this before you post.

"I'm not convinced that Scots is not simply a dialect of English" comes the familiar cry.

In the age of the internet, there's simply no excuse for being that far behind in the debate before participating.

Scots is differentiated from your "local patois" by virtue of its history. It never "branched off" from the Southern english that forms the now international standard, instead evolving simultaneously along with Northern dialects of English.

Scots has a body of literature, poetry and song that stretches back beyond the fifteenth century. James IV of Scotland, I of England held court in Scots, even when he moved to westminster. The business of the country was conducted in Scots as the official language for centuries.

Yes, it's similar to English - are you the type who'd also take issue with Portuguese or Catalan being viewed as distinct from Spanish, or with Norwegian being distinct from Danish?

5

Scullion,

Canada 17/07/2007 02:11:52

#4
I appreciate your point but a few of my friends who have studied linguistics state that the basic verb tenses are too similar and merely represent a bifurcation of a common language.
However, the issue is too wrapped up in national character to be ever looked on impartially.
As a result, I'll choose discretion over valour and withdraw my objections of its study.

6

Guga II,

Rockall 17/07/2007 02:38:17

#1 Albanoch. That's Hen Broon you're talking about. He's been for elocution lessons to make him more "British", to go with his Union Jack underpants.. It's quite noticeable that he doesn't pronounce the letter "r" these days. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

However, I don't know about this "cut glass" accent you're on about. The English were never any good at pronouncing their own language (let alone anyone else's). At best they sound as if they have a bool in their mooth, and at worst are totally unintelligible.

In any event, the Scots should not give up on the use of Broad Scots, not should they ever feel inferior to anyone.

#3 Tricia. Fit like quine? That sounds like a good idea to me. We already have Gaelic only road signs in the country areas of the islands.

7

Navvy,

17/07/2007 04:23:45

#1
Who taught you?

your = you're? ! @#$%^&

8

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 17/07/2007 06:40:00

Gaelic zealots are sounding a wee bit like the language Taleban!

Gaelic Mafia actually. Been on the go for years now, since Machair was first broadcast some 15 odd years ago.

9

The Wizard,

OZ 17/07/2007 06:49:27

I would love to learn Gaelic but there are not many teachers in this part of the world.

10

eddylongshanks,

17/07/2007 07:02:09

Vitriol just spills forth from you doesnt it Guga ? Yet again you cant make a constructive comment but instead pursue your anti English agenda regardless of subject matter.
"The English were never any good at pronouncing their own language (let alone anyone else's). At best they sound as if they have a bool in their mooth, and at worst are totally unintelligible."
What on earth is the point of a comment like that ? How about adding "they all look the same dont they"
Grow up and add some worthwhile comment.

11

eddylongshanks,

17/07/2007 07:13:51

Guga if you bothered to read the article it wasnt about English, in fact it wasnt even mentioned. If you bothered to think about it you may appreciate that Yorkshiremen, Cornishmen, Norfolkmen, Black Countrymen etc all have dialects all equally incomprehensible to each other. These are also threatened by "estuary english", but no, you have to launch into your normal ill thought out, embittered tirade and somehow turn an important issue into one of "lets blame the English". You really are a wee fool. How tall are you?

12

donald,

weegieland 17/07/2007 07:20:30

Wis it Oscar Wildebeastie that said as soon as one Englishman enters a room the rest hate him because of his accent?

Fit?

13

big d,

Glasgow 17/07/2007 07:32:25

"discretion is the better part of valour" - oh, come on Scullion, that's no fun.

It's a poor excuse for not doing a little reading. I'm well aware of linguistics, and I'm sure my 'academic friends' can easily 'trump' yours on this subject - lets debate using what we ourselves know, rather than hiding behind offline 'friends'.

What kind of sample did your friends use to base their analysis on? This is crucially important, just because somebody is a self-described 'Scots' speaker, doesn't mean they actually speak plain Scots.

Plus, say for example that Scots & English did represent a bifurcation - surely that then is as much of a justification for Scots to seek *equal* treatment, as is the subject of this article. Your original post gave it the status of a creole, which is hard to justify, given the facts.

I never resorted to nationalism, nor sought to stimulate anything other than thorough, properly informed debate in my original post so I think your closing remark about national character and impartiality looks like a bit of a weak cop-out.

14

Màrio àntoinèttè,

17/07/2007 07:40:24

Its an archaic dialect. Have a look at at Wiki scots - its a joke.

http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Scots-English-Sco...

15

Màrio àntoinèttè,

17/07/2007 07:41:42

big d , i challenge you to name one person that sepaks like that.

16

Màrio àntoinèttè,

17/07/2007 07:41:53

speaks even :)

17

decent one,

17/07/2007 08:02:41

Scots is a foreign language to Scotland, just as English is a foreign language to Scotland and just as Gaelic is a foreign language to Scotland.
If they wish to go down this line however and choose Scots , they should make a real go of it. A half-hearted attempt will only draw be ridiculed.

18

decent one,

17/07/2007 08:04:02

Woops ! No 'draw'.

19

Lady Jane Grey,

17/07/2007 08:06:32

#11
Perhaps this link will be helpfull,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/colinandcumberland/

20

Màrio àntoinèttè,

17/07/2007 08:07:24

I've no axe to grind. I do find it an interesting "academic" debate though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scots_language

Is pluto a planet or not ? Did Gravity exist before it was "discovered" ?

21

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 17/07/2007 08:15:48

Someone who has named themselves after Edward Longshanks has a cheek to berate Guga re:anti -English.

That name should be banned in Scotland as it's a reminder of an act of terorrism.

22

The Wizard,

OZ 17/07/2007 08:15:56

#21 Lady Jane Grey


Thank's Maa'm. I will have a look.

23

Màrio àntoinèttè,

17/07/2007 08:23:27

That wiki thing makes us look quite civilsed here.

"Sadly, this article does not have a scholarly feel to it at all. Can't someone please do a better job than this bunch of nutters?--"

24

eddylongshanks,

york 17/07/2007 08:30:33

as should wallace in york

25

Cadgers,

Perth 17/07/2007 08:44:29

#2 "I'm not convinced that Scots is not simply a dialect of English".....or English a dialect of Scots Scullion?

26

Màrio àntoinèttè,

17/07/2007 08:47:19

26. Come and live in the 21st Century.

27

Mercutio,

Falkirk 17/07/2007 08:50:04

The fact is that due to media influences we are all affected by a trend towards homogenous English. Guga talks about the "Scots" in the third person, interesting! He also seems to turn every thread into a political rant full of some perverted obsession with Gordon Brown. Whether or not Scots is considered to be a language in its own right is another matter and I don't know the answer, for one thing there are so many variations. One thing I do know is that for me English spoken by a native Gaelic speaker whether from Scotland or Ireland is music to the ears.

28

mummymonkey,

Perthshire 17/07/2007 08:51:21

Nobody speaks "Scots". It's a made up comedy language.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/scots/inde...

I mean "wabsite" ffs!

29

RG Cuan,

Éire/Ireland 17/07/2007 08:52:55

Tricia - In Ireland there are bilingual signs throughout the south, Gaelic-only signs in Gaeltacht and English-only signs in most of the north. The only Scots equivalent in Ireland is in parts of Antrim, Down, Derry and Donegal. The term Ulster Scots is used to describe it and only survives in vocabulary and accent.

Decent One - Are you crazy?

30

j hendrix,

Netherlands 17/07/2007 09:11:38

#30 I know plenty of people who talk just like that, would you like me to tell them they talk a comedy language. i suppose you all talk proper english in perthshire.

31

Màrio àntoinèttè,

17/07/2007 09:16:47

Frae our ain Oor Willy Parliament

"Accoontable Tae be accoontable til a bodie or an organisation is tae hae tae explain yer actions til them an tae be responsible for the effeck o yer actions."

I'll tell you what - you can stick this nonsense right up your chorus and verse.

32

King Doug,

Glasgow 17/07/2007 09:27:50

I can see both Scullion and big d's points. Initially I'm inclined to agree that Scots seems more like a dialect than a distinct language, since it seems pretty much a case of replacing the odd word with something else, but then I think about all the times I'd go on holiday in England with my family, and people genuinely couldn't understand my mum at times. I think I've just been fortunate enough to grow up hearing so much Scots that I'm almost bilingual, without really realising it. She'll still come out with words today that I jokingly accuse her of making up, and some of them are so removed from the English translation that they go beyond mere differences in pronounciation or slang.

Anything to discourage children adopting lazy Saath Landan pronounciations like "fursday" or Americanisms like "alright already" gets the thumbs up from me, though.

33

mummymonkey,

Perthshire 17/07/2007 09:37:08

#32 "I know plenty of people who talk just like that".

How's the weather in Brigadoon these days?

34

j hendrix,

Netherlands 17/07/2007 09:53:47

# 35 Ever been to the north east of scotland?

35

Fay fae Scotland,

Scotland 17/07/2007 10:12:22

My (English) boyfriend thought I made up a lot of words until he picked up a Scots Dictrionary in the Scotland on Sunday and I was able to prove they were genuine words.
Try telling him Scots isn't another language!
To me, describing a bridge as "shoogly" for example, seems quite natural, but my fella was convinced I'd made the word up. Now (he's lived in Scotland for 6 years now) , he never says "yes" always "aye" and has picked up a lot of other words!

36

Comerscroft,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 10:16:23

I thought Gaelic was a distinct language, compared to Scots which appears to be a guttersnipe version of English.

37

big d,

Glasgow 17/07/2007 10:20:54

beware mummymonkey & Màrio àntoinèttè folks, this subject's always a draw for the trolls - these two have given more than adequate evidence for being that. Do not feed...

Mercutio points out "Guga talks about the "Scots" in the third person" - it's an interesting point. I'm doing so too with good reason. This forum is conducted in English, and we're debating the status of Scots primarily (it seems) in the eyes of English speakers.

As my English is very good (better than some of the "Scots doesn't exist" posters by a long mark), I don't feel the need to use Scots. I'd no more use Scots on here than use my French, which is also quite good. If the forum's being conducted in Scots that's another matter entirely.

I often think that monoglots struggle with this issue in much the same way as they struggle with language as a whole. If it isn't completely unintelligible then it must needs be the same language.

I'll refer you back to the two good examples I raised earlier - Catalan to Spanish, or Norwegian to Danish. The Norwegians in fact recovered their language from the ruling influence of Danish some time ago. The two languages still have some mutual intelligibility as I understand it (my wife speaks Danish).

As to naming people who speak like "that", well, the anonymity of this forum would be spoilt. It's not a sideshow - if you really want "proof" you'll find it easily enough, and on your own time.

I have to say though, if you live in Scotland and you've never met anyone that speaks Scots maybe you need to (a) clean out your ears or (b) set aside some of your prejudices regarding 'correct' speech.

38

big d,

Glasgow 17/07/2007 10:24:35

comerscroft, pay attention.

from www.freedictionary.com :

gut·ter·snipe(gtr-snp)
n.
1. A street urchin.
2. A person of the lowest class.

Scots has it's origins as a language used by Kings & Queens - James IV & I as I pointed out, so your reflexive classist response to what is an otherwise intelligent and considered debate is pretty much baseless.

39

King Doug,

Glasgow 17/07/2007 10:34:31

#35 It's fair dreich , jist like it aye is.

#39 Guttersnipe? Haud yer wheesht!

Actually, I'm re-teaching myself German just now. There are a surprisingly large number of words where it's pretty obvious what their English counterpart is (e.g. toilette, Schule, Sommer, sonn, Trinke). This is hardly exclusive to German either. But we consider it a different language mostly, I suspect, due to the grammar construction, which is perceived to be very different to English (in reality, it just hasn't suffered the massive relaxation of grammar that English has). I daresay people who have studied Scots thoroughly would come up with different grammar constructs to English. I suspect (but this is just a hunch) Scots and English only look so similar due to the shared border, much like the afore mentioned Spanish and Catalan or the Scandanavian languages.

40

Màrio àntoinèttè,

17/07/2007 10:36:15

I'm not a troll big D, i am Contrary. There is a difference, and I am entitled to my opinion.

41

Comerscroft,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 10:49:22

~~ 41~~

You must also pay attention and watch your apostrophes. Your first sentence should read -

'Scots has its origins............'


By the way, why does the Hootsman insist on using the word 'Scots' e.g in today's rag, 'A Scots pensioner.....', rather than the word 'Scottish' ?

There's quite a lot in Chambers Dictionary about 'Scotch', 'Scots' and 'Scottish'. I was particularly interested in the word 'Scotchy' which means a nickname for the Scots.

42

GP,

17/07/2007 10:53:13

Big D - you won the arguemnt hands down.
I am amazed that so many wish to denegrate our natural tongue down to some offshoot or dialect of english. This merely highlights that years and years of undermining and false proclamations have worked on some.
For Scullion and cohorts - Scots is a language and not so long ago was shown to be possibly far older than english. English itself is questionable as a distinct language given the influences on it.
Although many of the words have died out in normal use this is completley due to a vocabuler ethnic cleansing.
Scots language is far richer in it's use of descriptive words and very few words can be used for two meanings.
It is just a pity that it's use has been forced out much like gaelic, doric and all the other natural languages.
The common language used for business and such like could continue but we should not be ashamed to call cows cae.

43

Màrio àntoinèttè,

17/07/2007 10:54:08

Postings or articles containing languages other than English may be removed. The Publisher has to ensure that it understands a posting or article before it can pass it, therefore postings in languages other than English may have to be removed.

44

Comerscroft,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 11:06:23

~~45~~

"Scots language is far richer in it's use of descriptive words and very few words can be used for two meanings.
It is just a pity that it's use has been forced out much like gaelic, doric and all the other natural languages."


You, too, must learn to watch your apostrophes.

45

Bobo,

17/07/2007 11:17:23

Scots isn't a language. Well, what language do these words come from?

Kirk
Bairn
Greet
Firth
Cutty
Sark
Auld
Lang
Syne
Quine
Loon
Kist
Bauchle
Bourach
Mither
Tap
Braid
Bruntsfield
Birk
Lass
Lad
Toon
Howe
Breeks
Hoose
Lang


Just wondering....................

46

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 17/07/2007 11:19:35

Nowegian or at least Scandinavian .......

47

RG Cuan,

Éire/Ireland 17/07/2007 11:30:40

Languages are often defined by national borders. Look at Dutch/Flemish and many other examples.

If Britain was a country Scots would probably be classed as a dialect, just the same as Cornish, Yorkshire etc.

But Scotland is a country - which will probably become fully independent in the years ahead - and so it's likely that official language status will be granted in the future.

This however does not compare the leid to Gaelic, whose language status is never in doubt and which is fighting back strongly all over Ireland, and will do so in Glasgow, Highlands and Islands too.

48

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 17/07/2007 13:08:15

was Gaelic ever used in common parlance in Glasgow,

49

Miss Pixie,

Westminster, Maryland USA 17/07/2007 13:58:47

When I first moved into the Hawick-Newcastleton area (from NYC) I had a tough couple of months. Then suddenly I developed an 'ear' for the local dialect and soon picked up on the language as well as the 'slang'. I now speak some sort of combo of yiddish(picked up in NYC), Pennsylvania German-isms as well as standard American-style English ala NYC. I seem to 'collect' expressions and express myself accordingly. However, I NEVER tried to sound like a Scot. I think foreigners who do that appear to be pretentious fools or like Hyacynth Bucket.

To the point: the Scottish language should be taught (along with gaelic)so it is not lost. It is so wonderful to hear Burns' 'Ode to a Haggis' read properly on Burns Night.

We do not get much in the way of Scottish TV shows over here because the accent is difficult to understand. Pity. I was able to enjoy 'Train-Spotters' without the aid of English sub-titles unlike most Americans.

50

Lawlander,

Perth, Scotland 17/07/2007 14:23:17

For information about the Scots language please visit the Scots Language Centre at: www.scotslanguage.com

51

Comerscroft,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 14:31:38

## Miss Pixie##

"We do not get much in the way of Scottish TV shows over here because the accent is difficult to understand. Pity. I was able to enjoy 'Train-Spotters' without the aid of English sub-titles unlike most Americans."


You really are not missing much. We, in Scotland, have a wonderful choice of 'River City' (life in Glasgow, with a thick layer of impenetrable Weegie accent) or 'River City'.

There was something called 'Monarch of the Glen' which, although set in wonderful Highland Scenery, suffered from Glasgow accents and a good layer of 'Highland' stereotypes. (kilts etc, etc, etc)

I'm just waiting for someone to produce a soap set in Drumnadrochit about the adventures of Nessie, the Loch Ness Monster...........yawn.


Sometimes, I think BBC Scotland have not moved on an inch since the early 1960s and 'The White Heather Club with Andy Stewart (all kilted men and pretty ladies dancing). Mind you, that was only one step up from Harry Lauder and the music hall, singing 'Keep right on to the end of the road.

Inbetween them, we had Kenneth McKellar et all, being one's 'Highland host, all dressed up in kilts.

All very pseudo and fakery.

52

Màrio àntoinèttè,

17/07/2007 15:19:50

Miss Pixie , have you seen our other Famous Film - BraveDart (aboot Jocky Wilson) .

53

Steafan,

Japan 17/07/2007 15:25:28

#56 that`s true, but there have been good dramas, comedy and current affairs programs. Hamish MacBeth, Gruth is Uachdar, Still Game, Eorpa to name a few.

54

Miss Pixie,

17/07/2007 18:30:33

Oh, Comerscroft...I enjoyed 'Monarch of the Glen' and it was shown over here. But it is too true that there are not enough Scottish programs even in Scotland. Is it lack of funding? Or is it lack of demand?

#Not sure if #57 is teasing me. Or did he mean 'BraveFart?'

55

,

17/07/2007 19:55:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
56

Artar,

Glasgow 17/07/2007 20:28:18

There's a lot of ignorance and linguistic fascism here: a few distinctive words and regional accents do not a language make. I'll stick to English, thanks (yes, we do speak it in Glasgow).

57

big d,

Glasgow 17/07/2007 22:40:29

Artar, we're delighted for you - nobody on this forum has suggested you do otherwise than stick to English. The Royal 'we' is a bit much, though. I know Scots speakers in Glasgow although mostly come from other parts :)

I don't dispute that there's some ignorance on here, but I think that the desire to undermine peoples self-acceptance in the matter of speech (one of the themes of your post) comes as close in real terms to what you might describe as 'fascism' as any of the other admittedly ignorant opinions posted on this forum.

I think it's pretty 'ignorant' to bandy the word 'fascism' about like that. I can only call to mind Scots writings that take an *anti* fascist standpoint, I'm unaware of anything written in Scots that is supportive of that agenda, although I'm prepared to be corrected, so I think your choice of words is particularly inappropriate, dare I say 'ignorant'.

Scots is far more than "a few distinctive words and regional accents", and this has been the subject of serious study. In some circles I move in here in Glasgow though, Scots is not often spoken beyond a few common words, grammatical influences and so on. I understand why this discussion sounds a bit alien & confusing to you.

Don't worry - it's already well established that many Scottish people don't speak Scots, and this discussion has nothing to do with you, or with persuading you to switch. Glasgow is not exactly a hotbed of Scots language. That doesn't, however, entitle you to dismiss out of hand other people's right to expect acceptance of their natural speech, particularly when I'm fairly sure you've got little experience of direct contact with plain Scots language and its speakers.

58

big d,

Glasgow 17/07/2007 22:52:53

Here's one example - Hamish Henderson's "Freedom Come All Ye" - of what I always think of as the dominant political perspective in Scots writings, in songs/poetry at any rate :

http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/songs/texts/freecaye.html

Apologies for my over-reference to Artar's use of the word 'ignorant'. I always get a bit upset when people idly mis-apply the word fascist, as if they think fascism isn't a serious threat in the world we currently live in.

A small group of people, speaking what amounts to a minority language, aren't fascist - they're just another example of the kind of interesting, unselfconscious and natural difference that exists in the world, and the kind of thing genuine fascists would be inclined to crush.

Read the song, it says it better...

59

big d,

Glasgow 17/07/2007 23:17:54

ps. one last post for now - Comerscroft, I share your embarrasment at 'fakery'. We're not talking about that kind of thing here, though, simply respect for (other - I'm sure you don't speak it) people's language.

I wasn't sure if you were interested in the debate anymore, you appeared to become a kind of human spellchecker for a few posts there (are you the man Microsoft employs to put all those wiggly lines under words).

60

Mitraillette,

new orleans, usa 18/07/2007 16:58:40

In the states I was taught that the Scots langauge was Gaelic and that the dialects of English that are spoken in Scotland are a result of the Gaelic influence. A pretty natural occurence in linguistic evolution. "Scottish" sounds beautiful to me, but what do us Americans know, right...

I don't know why the English people have such an issue about language purity anyway. Thirty minutes outside of London, and they lose the ability to pronounce consonants.

61

,

18/07/2007 19:51:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 797335, Article id was mapped to record!
62

Lady inwaiting,

20/12/2007 23:21:35
What about Deaf sign langauges !!!!!!!!

 

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