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SNP tax saved – for now – by Greens



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Published Date: 18 April 2008
GREEN MSPs scored a victory last night by having their own tax proposals included in the SNP government's public consultation over the local income tax (LIT).
The two MSPs tabled an amendment putting forward a tax which is based on the value of land rather than property as the fairest and most practical way of replacing the unpopular council tax.

The SNP was forced to back the amendment in return for th
e Greens' support in blocking Labour's bid to defeat LIT.

The Green amendment opening up consultation on replacing the council tax by other alternatives, including their own land-value tax, was carried by 65 votes to 61 after being backed by the SNP and Lib Dems against a Labour/Tory coalition.

Green MSP Patrick Harvie said: "We are obviously delighted that we have now managed to open up the consultation to include alternatives including our idea of a land-value tax which is used Denmark, South Africa, Jamaica, some Australian states and several cities and communities in the United States.

"The key words in our amendment were fairness and local accountability – we believe that will only leave our option as the way forward."

The Greens' amendment allows their idea of a land-value tax to be considered as an alternative proposal along with the Lib Dem idea of allowing councils to set a variable income tax, as the SNP try to avoid defeat over the controversial issue.

During a debate at Holyrood yesterday, Tory finance spokesman Derek Brownlee said the SNP plan had escaped its "day of reckoning" because the Green amendment gave it the chance to continue.

He added: "A defeat for the Labour motion tonight is not a win for the government. In fact, it might prove to be the reverse – it allows the local income tax plans to limp on, and in so doing to continue to drag down and damage the government."

Labour's local government spokesman Andy Kerr said: "This flagship SNP policy is falling apart at the seams.

"There was no response to Labour's attack on how damaging their plans will be for hard-working Scottish families. They were reminded time after time that a couple earning a joint income of just £33k would be worse off; young people still living at home will be hammered, as will tax-paying pensioners. They stand accused of being gutless and cowardly, and hid behind a pointless amendment by the Greens."

Earlier in the debate, Mr Kerr dubbed LIT the "Nat tax" and claimed it was less popular than the Tory's poll tax.

"The great contradiction at the heart of this is this is not actually a local income tax," he said. "There is nothing local about it. It would remove overnight one of the key principles of local government – its right to determine how much revenue it will raise locally."

But John Swinney, the finance secretary, argued the council tax was the most hated levy in the country, to which he said Labour was desperately clinging.

"Council tax is unfair and regressive," he added. "It hits people on low incomes, particularly pensioners, who can least afford to pay it. Our proposals will make most single pensioners, most pensioner couples, most couples with or without children, most one-parent families, most single people and most households with multiple taxpayers better off. Only the top-income decile will pay more under our proposals."

A LESSON FOR TAXING TIMES

CONSERVATIVES yesterday attacked Alex Salmond over the government's plans for a local income tax, asking how he could justify forcing students to pay an extra 3p on their income tax above £5,500 of earnings.

During First Minister's Questions, Tory leader Annabel Goldie said: "Last year the First Minister spoke of the financial barriers facing students, many of whom have to work their way through their studies and many of whom pay income tax.

"So what excuse is he going to give students for landing them with a new financial barrier – the SNP's Nationalist tax on learning. How is that fair?"

Mr Salmond

said his government had helped all students by abolishing the graduate endowment fee.





The full article contains 693 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Angus Ogg,

17/04/2008 22:43:27
As a temporary convert to the SNP, I think the LIT is a very bad idea.

Tartan Poll Tax at best.

Not sure what John Swinney has been thinking of. Maybe a good idea to voice off with the LIT idea when the SNP were in opposition, but this has the makings of an Achiles Heel for the SNP now they are in government.

Hopefully, John Swinney and his colleagues will listen to the Greens. A revision of the original proposal may salve something workable. Otherwise it's bye-bye SNP from several of their converts.
2

druidh,

edinburgh 18/04/2008 00:06:51
The real story - The Scottish Parliament today voted AGAINST the current local tax arrangements.

Put in place by??? Supported by???
3

Arthur X,

18/04/2008 00:35:49
I agree with both those comments. Local income tax lets the richest escape, through tax avoidance, non-dom status, or through the 100% exemption from share income, which is bizarre to say the least.

And the council tax is an incoherent and unfair system, normally administered in the most ineffectual and cumbersome way possible, especially for people who move house during the year or live in shared houses.

So something else needs to be considered, and Parliament is to be commended for this decision. The Green principles Parliament agreed to are a good starting point. Now perhaps the other parties can adopt a similarly constructive tone.
4

catgut,

pomona 18/04/2008 00:36:58
should the headline not read 'Lib/Labs saved election by greens'?
5

Redbeard Rum,

18/04/2008 00:40:10
Labour put LIT on the agenda with the devolution vote.

Presumably to scare the electorate off?

But, somehow, the soap-dodging claimants got off their fat derrieres to vote the measure, and indeed the costly bombsite that is Follyrood, through.

A fornicating acquaintance once (for it is you, Sykes) told me "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King".

Well, the King needs to take advice about his new clothes.

6

Redbeard Rum,

18/04/2008 00:51:33
Spook, we've never heard of you.

Stop dragging down the good name of our University.
7

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 18/04/2008 02:52:37
I can just see Red Rum hunting up and down the student lists looking for T. H. E. Spook and getting more frustrated by the minute.

No wonder he votes Labour.
8

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 03:39:21
Be very, very careful to all on this forum. Labours Red Rum has CCTV watching us all, and is recording our independant thoughts.

Surely we should all follow Stalin Browns Big Brother philosopies. If only we would accept the thoughts of Chairman Brown and Accept the path he has determined for us. After all he denied a democratic right to a referendum on the EU and whether we want our country to be FREE from the Contract of Union. Stll he will be gone soon enough.

Angus Ogg, there are things in any political parties manifesto's that free people dont always agree with. I certainly hope you maintain your support of the SNP's Independance goal.

The thought of your kids living in a Scotland where the People are the Sovereign Power, to be served by the political classes is such a major change from being involved with a Westminster system that gives politicians absolute power to do whatever they like, and ignore the will of the People who elected them.

Keep the faith mate.
9

donald,

glasgow 18/04/2008 05:56:30
It will be a tricky one for the Greenies to explain Land Value Taxation to Labour voters, or to explain Henry George's "Poverty amidst plenty" to Labour Numpty Biggin's turn MSPs.
10

James,

18/04/2008 06:09:35
From another place..........

Labour MSPs and officials insisted it was not the case that Ms Alexander did not have a fourth question, but that it was a prepared ploy not to ask one.

But a source close to the First Minister ridiculed the idea.

“This nonsense from Wendy Alexander’s spinners sounds like Baldrick in Blackadder—her inability to ask a question was all part of a ‘cunning plan,’ ” he said.

“It was so cunning that anyone watching it would think Wendy has completely lost the plot—just like the hapless Baldrick.”

SNP backbenchers were in no doubt the Labour leader had fluffed the weekly First Minister’s questions head-to-head and had been left with nothing to say.

Perth SNP MSP Roseanna Cunningham said, “This was clearly Wendy’s worst performance yet— even Jack McConnell’s low point still saw him resort to waffling.

“Wendy Alexander’s leadership is failing and the support of Gordon Brown will not help her position.

“Labour MSPs must be wondering what they have got themselves into.”..........

Labour in a tailspin. Lets watch them crash and burn.



11

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 18/04/2008 06:31:44
Why are Labour so opposed to a tax that is based on a persons ability to pay? According to Wendy Alexander they are supposed to be returning to socialism.However opposition to LIT,on top of Gordon Brown's abolishment of the 10p tax rate doesn't feel like social justice. Another example of Labour not listening actively to an electorate who favour LIT by a vast majority.There might be some problems in implementing LIT but Labour should be helping to find the way to give the electorate what they want.

I get the impression that if the SNP were in favour of better weather,that Labour would oppose it. The central aims of any tax should be that it is based on an ability to pay,that it is spent on what the electorate value.If these criteria are met,then the tax is likely to have the support of the vast majority of the electorate.I think that Labours tendency to talk about social justice,but act in ways that are not socially just,could be costly for them.



12

john z,

edinburgh 18/04/2008 07:50:30
Suomi, No. 14,

You have hit the nail on the head. You are exactly correct, labour would oppose the SNP no matter what they do.

The LIT is a push in the right direction to tax based on income, which is much fairer, and is used in other countries around Europe. Cureent council tax is a very outadated machine, which is grossly unfair, allowing the wealthiest scots to pay less, and the poorest scots to may much, much, more.

Bottom line, Wendy was defeated yesterday, although the Scotsman seems not to have noticed. As usual.
13

Socialism vs Nationalism,

Glasgow 18/04/2008 07:54:21
I hate tax!
14

Socialism vs Nationalism,

Glasgow 18/04/2008 07:56:38
Shouldn't council tax be a tax on wealth of which income and property are a part of? Not just solely propety tax or income tax.
15

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 18/04/2008 08:13:11
Land Value Tax is the best option. It is cheap and easy to collect and cannot be avoided/evaded. It penalises land hoarding and the ownership of dereliction. It is only paid by those who can afford it.

(It will require owners of large homes to pay more and if they can't afford it, to down size. There is a moral case to ease the position of a few of such people until LIT beds in).
16

Angoos,

Baku, Azerbaijan 18/04/2008 08:48:44
I am totally opposed to the LIT even though I am NO fan of Labour, Tories or Lib Dems.

My reasons are simple.

At present I work overseas and pay tax on my earnings in Azerbaijan (at 40%).
As they have a reciprocal tax agreement with the UK government this means I am exempt from UK income tax as I pay more tax in Azerbaijan that I would do in the UK.

At present I pay my council tax (with 25% single person rebate).

If the SNP proposal of 3p in the pound local tax is introduced would I have to pay 3p in the pound from my net earnings even though I am in the UK for less than 90 days per year and rarely use the services that I would be paying for ?

If this is the case then my council tax payments would triple if these proposals were introduced. How would that be a "fairer tax" ??
17

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 08:50:42
18

So how do they charge tax on those who live in multi story flats and skyscrapers??
18

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 09:00:03
19

Bullsh*t if you are in the UK for less than 90 days a year you are exempt paying income tax as a non resident. You can therefore claim back yer 40% tax from the UK government. I dont know if you are still eligable for council tax I suspect you are as the home owner which means LIT would benefit you greatly.
You can also avoid local taxation in Azerbaijan by leaving the country after the first 3 months for 24 hours and every 3 months after that.
Your company should have told you that. BP arranges for its contractors to leave the country every 3 months or so just to avoid the local taxation of 50% but pays the difference in local taxation relative to UK taxation for its full time staff.
19

Sod off labour!,

edinburgh 18/04/2008 09:10:23
Just get my council tax down!!! 50% of my pension goes on CT wHAT'S FAIR ABOUT THAT? wHAT WITH gORDON bROWN'S 10 P TAX SQUASHED what is labour thinking about? Tax the poor and let the rich off? Nice one Gordon....And what did he say to the labour minister wot was going to resign? your for the high jump!
20

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 18/04/2008 09:21:51
"A defeat for the Labour motion tonight is not a win for the government. In fact, it might prove to be the reverse – it allows the local income tax plans to limp on, and in so doing to continue to drag down and damage the government."


It's odd, isn't it, that despite all these frantic attempts by the Blue Tories and Red Tories to block LIT, polls keep on showing it to be HUGELY popular with the public, especially compared to the widely-hated Council Tax. What planet are they on? Do they ever actually meet any real people?
21

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 09:33:17
23

The unionists are fighting a scorched earth policy in Scotland. They dont want any SNP policy successes at any cost irrespective of how beneficial the policies are or not. They will happily cut of their own noses to prevent SNP policy from enhancing their popularity even to the detrement of Scotland.
I suspect the strange policy of cutting the 10p rate was a measure to damage the LIT policy and for no other reason. They are now claiming that LIT affects the poorest more and it does thanks to the cut in the 10p rate. I dont believe in this kind of coincidence do you??
Fiddling with the Barnett formula, withholding Scottish funding, the pattern is obvious.
Remaining within the union has now become as important to them as Indepedence is to the SNP.
It is now total war over this one issue.
22

Angoos,

Baku, Azerbaijan 18/04/2008 09:48:13
#21 Foulkes

Under the 90 day ruling I am only exempt from UK tax if I am out fo the country for more than 90 days in a complete tax year.
I do not pay any UK income tax as I pay my taxes to the Goverment of Azerbaijan.
A rebate can only be claimed if you are paying taxes to the UK government.

Whilst in Kazakhstan I only paid 10% local tax and the rest was deducted and paid to the UK Treasury by the company I worked for and a rebate could only be claimed at the end of the tax year if you met the criterea required.

Your comments regarding Azeri taxation is a load of nonsense. If you work in any of the CIS countries you are obliged under local laws to pay local tax on your earnings regardless of whether you are a contractor or staff employee. That is why a lot of staff employees have to put up with the dreaded "hypo tax" where they pay local tax as well as UK tax and have to claim the difference at the end of the tax year.

Almost all overseas companies operating in the CIS offer a "tax paid" deal to contract employees so that employees know what they are getting and avoid the rather confusing tax situation in these countries.

Company Tax laws may be different but I was of the understanding that all overseas companies working in the CIS had to be a registered company in that country
to be able to operate there and were therefore liable to local taxation. Being a localy registered company also enables them to avoid paying VAT on any imported items required for their business.

As for the LIT being of great benefit to me, how do you work that one out ?
If I have to pay 3p in the pound on my take home pay then the amount I currently pay would treble.
P.S. My flat is rented not owned.
23

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 18/04/2008 09:51:00
#3 Arthur

Share income will still get taxed.
24

Highland Mighty,

18/04/2008 09:56:42
6. Yet another nat is identified as a student who has yet to experience life in the real world.

Students, the youth and a small army of ex-pats are all that seem to represent nationalism on this board.

Strange how so few of the nats are working professionals.
25

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 18/04/2008 09:57:29
#19 Angoos

You have to admit that yours is a fairly uncommon case. Policies are set according to the norm and unfortunately for you, this means you will be worse off. That does not make LIT unfair.
26

Publius,

London 18/04/2008 09:58:11
The Land Tax is a non-runner. Having a consultation about it is a waste of time and money.

The row over the 10 per cent band is very instructive, because it prefigures the inevitable row about another 3 per cent on the low paid.

In March 2007 Brown announced that the 10 per cent band (invented by him) would go this year. The Labour Party said what a good idea how clever Gordon was. They then elected him leader unanimously. Now he most unpopular PM since Neville Chamberlain!

The lesson is very clear. If you fiddle with income tax you come unstuck - and how.
27

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 09:58:56
25

You are exempt UK income taxation if you are in the UK for less than 90 days in a tax year as a non resident. If you are paying local Azeri taxes then LIT wont affect you will it??? LIT isnt being introduced into Azerbaijan as far as I know.
you will still be paying 40% and not 43% if you are deemed to be non resident for income tax purposes.
the tax agreement between Azerbaijan and the UK doesnt include local taxation in the UK.
Do you still pay council tax for your property in the UK if you are only in the country for less than 90 days?? I dont know.

As for local taxation most companies have their own agreements with the countries they are working in like I said BP pay the local taxation differences for their full time staff but not for their contractors unless the contractor has that included as part of his contract its a question of negociation with your contract. If you havent included it then that is your problem and not the fault of the Scottish government.
Maybe a renegociation of your contract is in order.
28

Fay fae Scotland,

Fife 18/04/2008 09:59:14
"Only the the top-income decile will pay more under our proposals" ? Rubbish! I'm a supporter of the SNP but my partner and I would be around £70 a month worse off and, believe me, I'm not a high earner. We live in a small flat so pay relatively low council tax. But under these proposals we would pay more while rich old biddies rattling around in mansions wouldn't have to pay. How is that a fair system? Sorry SNP - I think you could've come up with something better on this issue.
29

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 09:59:29
25

Are you working as a limited company??
30

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 10:01:09
31

Would you still be worse of after a band revue takes yer property up another 3 bands??
And after the council tax is increased by 12 to 18% until the introduction of LIT in 2010 or 2011????
31

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 18/04/2008 10:01:09
#20 Land value Tax is levied on all owners of land. The argument is that the only value land has is due to the activities of the community. Land with community provided services such as roads, school, power, sewage etc is worth more than land without these things. All land is given some sort of value for tax purposes- zero rate for nature reserves, high rates for Harrods-type areas. All land is taxed as if it was already developed as per the local/national plan. The tax is collected from the land owner, who then gets it back from his tenants/customers, etc, if he wishes.

As regards flats and skyscrapers the same principle applies. The land is zoned and taxed. It is up to the owners to retrieve what they can from the actual inhabitants. If a flat is owner occupied then that person is directly liable; if rented, then indirectly according to whatver lease terms were agreed to.

Thus idle land/buildings is brought into zoned use or sold on to others who will. The tax is collected from very few people as compared to rates, and no one can dodge it (if they do then the land is taken from them). As land is use-zoned now already, the intro of Land value Tax is simple and quick and cheap.
32

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 18/04/2008 10:01:51
#27 HM

Dire stuff! Is that really your best contribution to a discussion about LIT. Sad.
33

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 10:03:46
30

In fact you wont even be paying the 40% because you should be claiming it all back.
34

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 10:05:25
27

Not surprising about how many unionists are actually full time cybertrolls though eh??
35

Highland Mighty,

18/04/2008 10:06:29
31. This is the principal problem with LiT (shouldn't we be calling it the NiT?). Households where two or more are earners (husband/wife, working children, housesharers etc.) will be paying more even if they are both 'average' earners.

This is on top of the fact that high earners (much of the IT and financial sector, middle managers and above, company directors, company owners etc.) will also pay more.

One point of a broadbased tax system (taxing income, spending and property) is that everyone ends up paying their share. Remove one of them and the money will be poured in to escape tax.
36

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 10:07:30
25

If your paying 40% tax in Azerbaijan then yer being screwed talk to the guys out there and get them to explain to you how to avoid paying tax legally.
37

Highland Mighty,

18/04/2008 10:09:26
35. Nat rule no.4: If you cannot counter, resort to abuse.

(or maybe that should be "Nat Rule no. 4: Just resort to abuse.")
38

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 10:09:35
38

Now all you have to do is prove it.
39

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 10:11:13
40

The sole Britnat rule: You have no argument so troll.
40

Highland Mighty,

18/04/2008 10:13:12
41. Ah, a devotee of the baseless anti-UK claim demands proof.

Read any one of the articles/documents/posts against LIT and ye shall find what ye seek.
41

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 10:16:14
34

That doesnt make a bit of sense. If you live in a multi story flat and own that flat are you the land owner?? and if you dont own the flat does that mean yer not?? Do all the owners in the multi story block pay the land tax for all those who dont own their flats?? how about sole occupants compared to family occupants how is the difference in due taxation worked out??
This land taxation is going to hit the rural communities harder than city dwellers irrespective of how much they earn. Hardly fairer than LIT is it???
42

Highland Mighty,

18/04/2008 10:19:18
44. Sigh. And where do you live again?

Do you perhaps come under any of the categories I mentioned?:
"Students, the youth and a small army of ex-pats are all that seem to represent nationalism on this board."

And you are a devout enthusiast of Nat Rule 4 too, aren't you? Mmm? Eh? Yes, you are.
43

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 10:21:32
43

No proof then so it isnt a fact its only yer opinion based on??? who cares.
44

Dracula (O positive),

18/04/2008 10:35:52
HM

So it's now clear.
You despise students (envy?)
You despise youth (envy?)
You despise ex-pats

WTF are you about?
45

brownlie,

18/04/2008 10:42:06
Highland

Us unionists have nothing to fear as long as we have our own "Comical Ali" in Andy Kerr whose wise words are worth repeating "The nat tax is less popular than the poll tax".
46

Union is Best,

18/04/2008 10:49:27
48. Clever, you have unmasked a key plank of our Unionist strategy to win back support. No lonher sure that our generalised down-talking of Scotland to try to erode confidence was being successful, we are now turning our attentions to insulting and attacking specific groups to claw back support!

Indeed, we dislike students - see our work on the Graduate Endowment! The poorer students and graduates are the less time they will have to ponder politics!

We are not to chuffed with pensioners or the low paid either - see our work in abolishing 10p lower tax rate and our defence of the council tax! We unionists recognise confidence and aspiration are our natural enemies in the fight against the SNP?

Onward the Union!
47

Union is Best,

18/04/2008 10:55:51
What I just can't get my head around is how the SNP keep getting parliamentary majorities in support of their dastardly politicies - scrapping the Graduate Endowment, free prescription charges and now on proceeding with consultations on LIT? I think our whole Unionist strategey needs a revamp, starting with not running out questions at FMQs! Please send questions on a postcard (no Jersey post-marks please) to Ms W Alexander, Scottish Parliament, and we will make sure we have enough questions next week!
48

alanh,

ek 18/04/2008 10:58:10
does this vote mean that nu labs and the tories have to actually come out and show us what their alternative to the hated council tax is with facts and figures to back it up rather than the usual negativity that they have used since may?
49

Arfur,

18/04/2008 11:00:06
Highland Idiot - I am a working professional. How that matters I have no idea, but I am sure it makes sence in that pee sized muscle that you call a brain.

As for land tax, it doesn't make sence. It is basically another (slightly different) council tax. Based on property/land.

What about flat owners?

Farmers? Lots of land but I think they are going through a tough enough time as it is.

The rich guy who has 10 propertys but rents 9 of them out. Does he pay tax on the propertys which means a rise in renting rates making it harder for low earns/students etc to get a house/flat? If so what do the people renting pay?

If it is down to whos in the house then the rich guy pays only tax on one house.

Ability to pay is the only fair way to be taxed. Yes it doesn't cover everything (like the other tax's), yes some people will lose out (like the other tax's) but LESS people will lose out and it is the fairest way to be taxed.

I can not believe this is still going on. People that appose the LIT are apposing either for financial gain (high earns that dont want to pay more) or basically because it is an SNP policy which makes the as thick as two short planks. Why continue to hold THE PEOPLE of this country back because of the party that comes up with tax.

I personally would be paying more but I do not mind as I know it is the fairest way to be taxed and my worse of friends and family will have less to pay which is fair. A friend of mine currently has gone back to uni to do a masters and pays the same CT as me. Now thats not fair.
50

Union is Best,

18/04/2008 11:03:44
54. We have no alternative. We Unionists like the council tax. We are not in the business of alternatives, they are too alternative, and we are mainstream.
51

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 18/04/2008 11:04:51
Not all students have a lack of experience of the real world and not all expats lack current knowledge of Scotland.There is something called adult learning.In my case I took two higher (postgraduate) degrees later in life around a demanding full time job and family committments.I have travelled extensively on business and have lived abroad.I think I have knowledge of life and don'y rely on the Daily Record for information.Anyone who watched Brian Taylor interviewing the Aviemore 3 at the Liberal and SNP conferences would have noticed that the young women who plans to take an undergraduate degree at Edinburgh University,had a maturity and wordly knowledge beyond her young years.Therefore,it is important,not to generalise.

Many of us who live abroad,pay taxes at home,visit family regularly,and have votes at home.I have just returned from Scotland,and anecdotal information picked up from people that I spoke to in Borders,Fife and Highland Region is in line with the public surveys.Most people want a system of fair taxation to replace the unfair council tax and were unimpressed by Labour in Holyrood and Westminster.I also discovered that support for the SNp extended acroos all age groups and occupations.Not just restricted to students and expats.I suspect that the vast majority of SNP voters and members never post on the Scotsman site.
52

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 11:06:34
56

I very much doubt you will be paying more if you take the banding revue plus the tax increaces between now the introduction of LIT into consideration.

why are people on these blogs still calculating their tax differentials on todays council tax figures???
LIT wont take effect until 2010 or 2011 use the projected figures for council tax for that period and include the proposed band revue.
How many more times do I have to post this FACT!!!!!
53

Arfur,

18/04/2008 11:06:52
Also this line is a classic:

"A defeat for the Labour motion tonight is not a win for the government. In fact, it might prove to be the reverse – it allows the local income tax plans to limp on, and in so doing to continue to drag down and damage the government."

What a load of buttocks.
54

frank mcbride,

lusitania 18/04/2008 11:07:41
As I've said many times, on these threads, LIT is the best form of funding LAs, GIVEN THE CURRENT RESTRAINTS!!!

It is equitable, for the most part.

LVT would only be equitable if there was a Penal rate for land hoarding. This option will never be accepted by ToryNuLabour.

If we, really, want to move to an equitable, overall, tax regime, then we only have one option: Independence.
55

Arfur,

18/04/2008 11:10:10
#59 Foulkes - I would as I am quite high up in my organisation but only live in a 2 bedroom city centre flat. But i dont mind.
56

Union is Best,

18/04/2008 11:12:47
62. Typical Nat bragging. Highland Mighty is very high up in his organisation too. He is in fact on the 9th floor of the Clyde Halls homeless hostel.
57

Arfur,

18/04/2008 11:13:52
63 - Union, thats what I meant, i'm on the top floor cleaning the windows.
58

Union is Best,

18/04/2008 11:15:45
64. Sadly Highland has been asked not to clean the windows anymore here at Cyber Union HQ, as he was leaving greasy tongue marks.
59

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 11:16:10
62

Even if yer property goes up 3 bands with a potential for at least a 12% increase on top???
60

Publius,

London 18/04/2008 11:16:44
#55 Jackie Priest
According to my English friends you are wrong - 180 degrees wrong. It's not Scotland that's governed by the English. It's England that's governed by Scots - Brown the ditherer, Darling - the taxer, Browne - the warmaker and all the rest of them.

#50; #53 If you believe the Spectator you'll believe anything.

61

Miss H,

18/04/2008 11:20:34
Saying the SNP was 'forced' to back the Greens amendment is a bit rich. It seems the SNP has become accustomed to the fact that as a minority government they need to seek the support of other parties on every single matter which goes through Parliament a lot more quickly than the Scotsman has!
62

walter,

18/04/2008 11:20:45
Two houses.
House 1 is valued at £100,000, it stands on an area of land valued at £20,000 and has 4 adults living there.
The owner of the house and land works and earns £10,000 per year, the other 3 residents receive £40,000 per year from unearned incomes such as pensions, investments and benefit’s a total of £50,000.
House 2 is valued at £200,000 it stands on an area of land valued at £30,000 and has 2 adults living there.
The owner of the house works and earns £15,000 and the other resident works and earns £10,000 per year totalling £25,000.
Under Council tax, Land value tax or Local income tax house 1 with a joint income double that of house 2 will pay less so non of these are fair.
What way for collecting local tax is fair.
63

Union is Best,

18/04/2008 11:23:55
69. Good point but the important thing is that whatever happens we Unionists through Westminster have got in first and belted these low earners first with our abolition of the 10p income tax band! We will not be out-paced by the SNP!
64

Shave,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 11:24:07
#59 Foulkes
"why are people on these blogs still calculating their tax differentials on todays council tax figures???"

Because they are using their present earnings in the calculation. Most people don't know how much they will earn in 2010-2011. Therefore, it is the best way to make a comparison.
65

Miss H,

18/04/2008 11:25:12
20 That is my issue with land value tax. At present under council tax people living up the same close will pay exactly the same council tax no matter how many people are living in each flat and what their financial circumstances are. I don't see that LVT would be any different in that respect. A system which would not work in our major cities - and increasingly people live in flats, not houses in cities - will not work full stop.

I have yet to hear the counter-argument to this point from anyone who supports LVT.
66

Alan B,

18/04/2008 11:32:42
Highland Mighty

With the insults u throw about i think u just try to goad those of a different political persuation to urself into a slagging match so u can detract from actually having to try win an argument.

If the snp are all student and ex-pats are labour all under-educated or public sector workers?
67

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 11:33:07
69

How on earth did somebody who earns 10000 a year manage to get a hold of a property worth 100000 on land worth 20000???
Why dont you try introducing real life scenarios instead of making up scenarios to fit yer math.
68

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 11:37:32
71

Well lets go on past experiance then and say that most folk will not get an increase in earnings higher than the rate of inflation whereas council tax will increase by at least 4% but taking the average over the last 10 years as a example then it could be 6%.
then of course there are those who may well be out of work by the time LIT comes into force. They of course would still be eligable for the increaced council tax but not LIT.
So another unmentioned benefit of LIT for people who may lose their jobs they will be exempt local taxation just when they need a break.
69

Alan B,

18/04/2008 11:42:56
#76 Foulkes Off the CyberNat

"So another unmentioned benefit of LIT for people who may lose their jobs they will be exempt local taxation just when they need a break"

I am not particularly in favour of LIT. But have always thought the reason u mention above aswell as if u have to take time out from a job due to ill health is on of the advantages that i see in it.

I think it is particularly bad with the council tax that if u are ill then u still get hammered.
70

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 11:46:27
77

Exactly its all about THE ABILITY TO PAY which doesnt apply to council tax, poll tax, nor LVT.
There will be losers but they are a small minority of high earners living in small houses or very very high earners living anywhere in the UK.
71

Angoos,

Baku, Azerbaijan 18/04/2008 11:51:58
Foulkes @ #32, #36 & #39

I am not a limited company as you are not allowed to work in Azerbaijan as a Ltd Co. (That particular method of tax avoidance is now screwed anyway due to the changes in the UK tax laws that were introduced recently regarding Ltd. Co's.)
I am employed by a UK employment agency, paid from their office is in Houston, Tx USA but who are an Azeri (should really read Azerbaijani to be politically correct but it's too long to type out all the time) registered company and am therefore liable to pay Azeri taxes (at present 40%).
I can NOT claim this back from the UK Treasury.
Under the reciprocal agreement if the tax rate in Azerbaijan was LESS than that in the UK then, if I broke the 90 day ruling, I would be liable for the additional tax that I would have paid in the UK. Funny how the rules don't work the other way and you can't claim back the extra tax you pay abroad ABOVE what you would have paid in the UK !!

Every guy I know who works out here has to pay Azeri taxes on their salary. This is factored into the respective day rates that they are offered as an incentive to come out here to work.
As far as I am aware there is no way of evading paying Azeri taxes and I work with UK, US and European ex-pats, many of whom have been working here for many years.

Still doesn't alter the fact that if LIT comes in then I will be seriously out of pocket despite not being in the country to use the services that I am being charged for.

Perhaps they will bring in a rebate system for folk in my position.If no then it's maybe time to buy a house overseas and become the new Sean Connery ... LOL !!
72

Shave,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 11:57:38
#76 Foulkes
"council tax will increase by at least 4%"

What no council tax freeze? Using todays figures cuts out all your supposition.

Anyway, nobody in their right mind would give much credence to the figures whether they are worked out using todays earnings/council tax or those for 2010/2011 as they are both predicated on a spurious 3% figure for LIT.

There are too many 'known unknowns' to judge the LIT as any improvement (yet).
73

Union is Best,

18/04/2008 11:58:29
79. I think the Azerbaijani situation is a fatal flaw in the SNP plans.
74

Union is Best,

18/04/2008 11:59:31
80. Quite right. They should probably put it out to consulatation and debate.
75

Publius,

London 18/04/2008 12:00:37
#75 Jackie Priest
The Spectator represents only itself. It does for the English right what the New Statesman and some Guardian columnists do for the English left. Both the Listener and New Statesman are deliberately tendentious but they do have impressive columnists: writers like Peter Oborne (right wing) and Jonathan Freedland (left) stimulate the imagination. I recently read Oborne's Triumph of the Political Class. His indictment of contemporary politicians is brilliant. And it applies just as as much to Holyrood as it does to Westminster.
As for my colleagues. I can see when they are pulling my leg even if you can't. But their comments do show how much the English middle class - or at any rate the south east middle class - is moving back to the Tories. The Tory revival will probably ripple out of the south east. A faint ripple may even reach Scotland and give the Tories 3 or 4 seats in the next UK general election.
76

Angoos,

Baku, Azerbaijan 18/04/2008 12:03:14
#56 Arfur

I will be three times more than I am at present which will take my payments to nearly 3,000 quid for a 1 bedroom rented flat that I rarely use because I work overseas. Do you think this is fair ??

I'll make up my mind when I see the plans in full, hopefully including any discount scheme they bring in with it !
77

walter,

18/04/2008 12:03:31
74
When I bought my house (or got my mortgage) it was valued at £48,000 and I earned £21,000.
My house is now valued at £160,000 yet my earnings are now £18,000.
You could ask how some one on £18,000 could get hold of a property worth £160,000.
The figures I used (which I made up)are irrelevant,
What is relevant is the fact that a household with a income lower than another will pay more under each of these systems due to either the value of the house, the value of the land or that the residents receive their income through working and paying income tax.
78

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 12:04:08
79

You have just mentioned the fact that the extra taxation cost is dealt with in yer rate so what are you complaining about???
Every contract is obviously different. I worked out their twice and was exempted local taxes because BP payed for me to holiday in Istanbul for a couple of days after 3 months in country.
Of course you would be liable if you broke the 90 day rule thats what its for. The 90 day plus rule proves UK residency if you are not caught by the residency rule then you wont pay UK income taxation. If you are paying local Azeri tax then you wont be affected by changes in UK income taxes because YER A NON RESIDENT as long as you stay out of the country for more than 275 days in any tax year.
I dont know if your affected by council tax but you WONT BE AFFECTED BY LIT because it is a UK local income tax not a property tax.
So whats yer problem???
79

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/04/2008 12:07:21
#17 I would agree - a wealth tax as opposed to an income tax is the way to go down if you genuinely support distributive taxation.
80

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 18/04/2008 12:08:58
Local income tax merely squeezes the workers still harder, leaving the lumpen proles untaxed and free to refuse to get out of bed.

Land value tax squeezes the unearned profits of land owners.

Owner occupiers pay according to the value of their homes. It is then up to them to request a share from other occupants.

Flat owners actually own a share of the land on which the flat is built. They pay appropriately. Renters in the same block will end up paying higher rents to enable the land owner to pay the tax.

It's all very simple. If you don't want to pay a high LVT then down size! The choice is yours.

Obviously some people will evade/avoid paying this tax, but that is true of any alternative system so it is not a valid argument against LVT.
81

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 12:09:20
85

Oh give it a rest Walter. Yer making it up as you go along as usual.
Anyway if yer property was valued at 48000 then yer in band D (coincidence??)if its now worth 160000 you will end up in Band G with a band revue to add onto yer minimum of 12% council tax increase.
With yer 18000 a year income then LIT will be a huge benefit to you but your arguing against its introduction.
Yer just full of sh*t.
82

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 12:11:28
88

But you cant back it up with any facts yer just making political statements and posting opinion.
You simply cannot argue that a tax system that is based on ability to pay is worse than one which isnt and all the spin and speil in the world cannot get around that HARD FACT.
83

Publius,

London 18/04/2008 12:11:46
In this interesting discussion no-one so far has mentioned fiscal drift. Since 1997 the starting rate of income tax (currently five and half grand) has not been raised in line with increases in pay. This means that an ever higher proportion of income has been taken in income tax - 'fiscal drift' - aka a 'stealth tax'. LIT will add to this.
84

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 12:14:22
88

So people should simply give up their homes after paying years of mortgage interest on them and downgrade to save on LVT??? and thats fair is it??
What about ability to pay how is that factored into LVT???
85

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 12:17:51
91

And you compare that piece of nonsence with a 12 to 18% council tax increase plus a banding jump of 3 places??? Maybe you can tell us how much extra income tax we have paid because of fiscal drift?? just take the average of 25000PA as an example.
86

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/04/2008 12:18:09
"#88 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation 18/04/2008 12:08:58
Local income tax merely squeezes the workers still harder, leaving the lumpen proles untaxed and free to refuse to get out of bed."

Could not agree more - working people in this country are sick to the back teeth of subsidising the lazy sods who won't get off their backsides and earn a living.

And even if they do earn a living I doubt many will pay because they are paid cash-in-hand in the black economy.
87

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/04/2008 12:18:10
"#88 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation 18/04/2008 12:08:58
Local income tax merely squeezes the workers still harder, leaving the lumpen proles untaxed and free to refuse to get out of bed."

Could not agree more - working people in this country are sick to the back teeth of subsidising the lazy sods who won't get off their backsides and earn a living.

And even if they do earn a living I doubt many will pay because they are paid cash-in-hand in the black economy.
88

Arfur,

18/04/2008 12:22:32
#85 walter - RUBBISH

£21,000 to £18,000 - you must be useless.
89

walter,

18/04/2008 12:23:31
89
Well I have had 2 rants of you attacking me personally but still no explanation of how it is fair that a household with a lower income than another can pay more.
90

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/04/2008 12:28:12
#96 Or that could be his pension?