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Published Date: 18 September 2008
ALEX Salmond, the First Minister, launched a blistering attack last night on the "spivs and speculators" who had prompted the HBOS crisis.



He said he had been in talks with senior executives from the Scottish banking giant and Lloyds TSB, and pledged to attempt to ensure that any new bank would continue to be based north of the Border, while minimising the number of job losses.

Mr Salmond has cancelled his trip to the Ryder Cup to "represent the Scottish interests", as the merger between the banks looks set to be confirmed today.

"My experience of mergers is that the key strategic decisions are taken early," said Mr Salmond, a former economist. "That is why I feel I need to be here to represent the Scottish interest."

He said he had made the government's position clear to those involved in negotiations and hit out at the speculators who were putting "the quality of life and jobs of hundreds, thousands and millions of people across the world at risk" through "short-trading" – where investors make money by effectively betting on the price of a company falling.

"There's going to be a huge job of advocacy in the Scottish interest. I have spoken to senior officials in both banks today and made it clear that we will be making sure these representations are made," Mr Salmond said.

Ripping HBOS out of Scotland would likely mean the end of the Bank of Scotland, which formed HBOS when it merged with Halifax in September 2001.

At that time, it remained a separate public limited company, but it is unclear whether it would continue to do so.

If not, the bank would likely lose the power to print its own notes, which it has had since being established by government charter in 1695. This would be a major blow to the Scottish currency and national identity.

HBOS's share price plummeted earlier in the week in the wake of the collapse of Lehman Brothers, the US investment bank. Traders began offering shares they did not own at reduced prices in the hope the value would then drop – "short-selling".

Mr Salmond said: "I have not a word of criticism for the two banks, but I have to say that if HBOS, which has had a clean bill of health from the financial regulators, has been driven to this point through this sort of speculation then there is no financial institution that is not at risk.

"I am very angry that we can have a situation of a bank being forced into a merger by a short-selling bunch of spivs and speculators in the financial markets.

"We should not have situations where well-capitalised, properly funded financial institutions are subject to incredible speculative attack, and that drives them into decision- making which otherwise they might not have done."

His fury echoed comments by Vince Cable, economy spokesman for the Liberal Democrats, who also accused hedge-fund managers of "hunting in packs" to undermine HBOS.

But the shadow chancellor, George Osborne, said the practice of short-selling was "more of a symptom of the problem than the cause", which was people's uncertainty about the soundness of financial institutions.

Mr Salmond said he believed the Royal Bank of Scotland was not under as great a threat from takeover because it was an international organisation that could call on support from regulators around the world and was not as dependent on wholesale money as HBOS.

He added that there was a need to cut taxes and increase public spending to re-inflate the economy and regretted that the Scottish Government's powers would not allow him to do that because it was unable to borrow.

The Scottish Lib Dem leader, Tavish Scott, said: "The enormous short-term financial pressures have understandably led to these talks (between Lloyds and HBOS] but customers need to know that banking regulators are on their side, because a merger of these two companies will mean less competition."

For the Tories, Derek Brownlee said: "Whatever the outcome, we want to see Scotland maintain a strong and stable presence in the global financial sector."

New player would possess major muscle but may retreat from the high street

THE institution created by a fusion of Lloyds TSB and HBOS would take up formidable space in the marketplace and – perhaps to a lesser extent – on the high streets.

While there will undoubtedly be job losses – estimated in some quarters to be in the region of 40,000 – those who keep their posts will likely benefit from being part of a very powerful institution.

Ken Murray, chief executive of Blue Planet Investment Management, said the merger would create £9 billion a year in profits.

He said: "The efficiency gains will be enormous. You don't need two banks on every high street in Britain; invariably people will lose their jobs as always happens in this situation."

The highest-profile scalp which could be taken is Andy Hornby's, the CEO of HBOS. He is already under fire for the embarrassing rights issue earlier this year, which bombed, leaving underwriters with the vast majority of the shares.

There are also major implications for Scotland's infrastructure, economy and jobs market, and those of Edinburgh, where HBOS is based.

Alex Salmond, the First Minister, is in talks to ensure the HQ remains north of the Border.

However, Mr Murray said: "I don't know if this is a loss for Scotland. In reality, the head office was already in the South.

"But this is a British bank, and Lloyds and HBOS are big players in Scotland. It's in everybody's interests to have strong people running strong banks. Banks are reliant on the confidence of markets. If you undermine that confidence then you make it very difficult for that company to carry on in business. It's particularly hard when the rumours are simply not true."

Bryan Johnston, of Bell Lawrie, said the merger would lead to "a muscle of a name to start with".

He said: "We will end up with a very powerful bank with a massive asset base. We will inevitably have some consolidating of the workforce."

But he said the loss of traditional physical banks was not a major implication.

"I think the days of the high- street bank are on the way out anyway," he said. "More and more people bank online so the physical presence is probably only relevant to non-physical elements of banking, such as investment banking.

"I think the banks will go the way of the post offices."

ANALYSIS

Reputation for trust worth nothing in the global marketplace


A TAKEOVER of HBOS by Lloyds TSB is good news for HBOS customers and depositors, and for the stability of the banking system. But in the long run, it is bad news for the Scottish financial industry and the economy for it may cost up to 4,000 Scottish jobs.

It is good news for Gordon Brown's government, for if Lloyds TSB had walked away from the deal, as it did from Northern Rock, that would have sent a signal HBOS was too risky, and have caused a disastrous Northern Rock-style run on the bank, forcing the government to nationalise it. After a number of years, once stability had returned, it would then be sold to another bank. So takeover was always a foregone conclusion; it has just happened sooner rather than later.

It is a bad blow for Scotland. The financial sector has collectively marketed itself as being more trustworthy and a lot less racier than those spivvy types in the City. But the current plight of HBOS shows that such a reputation, if it was ever taken seriously, is worth nothing in the international marketplace.

While lots of depositors will breathe a big sigh of relief at a takeover, lots of employees – 140,000 of them in the UK between the two banks – will become extremely nervous about their jobs.

That goes right up to board level. The HBOS board, including chief executive Andy Hornby, are likely to be among the first to get the black bin-liner. They have made seriously heavy weather of the Halifax/Bank of Scotland merger and made the disastrous mistake of replacing James Crosby with Mr Hornby when the former started reining in mortgage lending, a wise strategy it now turns out. Their attempt to raise £4 billion capital through a share rights issue was a flop.

The merged bank will, I think, be headquartered in London where the better-rated Lloyds TSB management now are. The only question mark about that concerns Lloyds TSB Scotland's separate identity, board, and management under chief executive Susan Rice.

For the rest of the staff, there will be a big shake-up. Too much of the two banks' operations overlaps.

At the time of the Royal Bank's merger with Natwest, the two banks between them had 86,000 employees. A year later and 13,000, or 15 per cent, had gone. That sounds bad, but this will be worse because unlike RBS/Natwest, which operated mainly in different retail banking markets with little overlap, there is huge overlap between HBOS and Lloyds TSB.

That means, I am afraid, anything between 20,000-30,000 jobs will go and there will be a big round of closures in the 3,000 branches that the banks have between them.

Although the cuts will be spread across Britain, Scotland may suffer a disproportionately large share because it is where the overlap is most pronounced. A year after any takeover, we can expect 3,000-4,000 jobs to have gone.

Alex Salmond may well complain about that, but the hard reality is that the shareholders of the new, bigger bank will tolerate nothing less.

Peter Jones




The full article contains 1637 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Angus Ogg,

17/09/2008 23:09:30

11.09: 17-09-2008 - So it's official. The Bank of Scotland is dead. Long live the Bank of Scotland.

Now to be headquartered in London and called Lloyds-Halifax plc.

===================

As for the past 72 hours, is it me, or has Alex Salmond been a refreshing antidote to McAvities Cat at Dithering Heights, AKA Downing Street ? FM Salmond has presented a clear explanation of what should be happening in the Scottish Banking Sector and economy, without talking down to electors. Also, he is actually coming on the media and facing up to difficult questions. Oh Brown, Where Art Thou?

Fairplay too, to David Cairns. Notwithstanding the SNP/Labour divisions on the likes of these Boards, David gave a refreshing, decent and honest account of himself in a very dignified manner, and methinks if Gordon Brown were to take a leaf out of both Alex Salmond and David Cairn's respective books he would fair a lot better.

But then Gordon will be retiring on or before 21st November 2008, so all eyes will soon be on who will be elected as the UK PM in order to stop Milliband or Purnell ???
2

Rufus T. Firefly,

18/09/2008 00:03:06
Salmond's fury is probably based on the fact that he cannot now go to the Ryder Cup.
3

Royster,

18/09/2008 00:27:40
Salmond's fury is due to the fact that he has just been proved wrong. His claim that Scotland would be a wealthy nation on independence is looking threadbare. It just proves he has been living in cloud-cuckoo land and leading his supporters on a merry dance. Countries often have severe shocks... some financial and some involving wars. That's why the union makes sense. It offers greater security to the people.
4

Edward,

18/09/2008 00:46:34
It doesnt matter which shade of the political spectrum you come from, this is a disgrace that some faceless spivs in London have created havoc with Scottish banking.
Salmond I think speaks for all and voices our concerns
But where the f**k was Brown in all this! not a peep of support or , as he should be doing is making sure this should not happen, after all he is suppose to be the Prime minister! Brown should be going after the scalps of these creep spivs that done this, simply stating 'its a global thing' doesnt wash!
5

Edward,

18/09/2008 00:54:12
#5 danielrober
Your a complete idiot!
This was nothing to do with a 'World financial crisis'
this was purely down to a small group of hedge fund (spivs)managers short trading shares in HBOS and creating a crisis. The FSA are well awre of it as is idiot Brown. The question is will Brown and the FSA act on this and investigate?
The sivs didnt evn own the shares they 'borrowed' them and sold them as cheap as the could driving the price down. Then when it was rock bottom bought them back, giving themselves an 'nice' earner
Frankly they shold be arrested and money takn of them
6

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 18/09/2008 01:02:10
Royster, you seem to be peddling that bigger is better. Is that the case with GDP, since you dispute the fact that Scotland would be better off as an independent nation?
7

somerferg,

perth 18/09/2008 01:19:56

I'm sure if Alex Salmond wanted to he would have attended the Ryder Cup instead of which he did what he has been doing for years i.e. speaking the truth and going into battle on Scotland's behalf. What he says is absolutely correct - our wealth has been sqandered by chinless wonders in the financial world who will not be the ones worried about getting or paying for a mortgage or the cost to the ordinary taxpayer of this debacle. Nop they will still be sunning thmselves in Monte Carlo sipping on champagne laughing at the rest of us mere mortals.
8

The Strategist,

18/09/2008 01:33:24
Royster you truly are a twirp. Had Scotland been independent then the chances are this wouldn't have happened in the first place. To my knowledge there haven't been any runs on any Norwegian bankshares.
9

Guga II,

Rockall 18/09/2008 01:42:31
Not forgetting the biggest spiv of the lot, Maggie Broon.
10

Independent Scots Thinker,

Perth 18/09/2008 01:49:36
Had Scotland been independent, little ol' (air punchin') Alex wouldn't have been able to do a thing to change the outcome. In fact, it was our BRITISH PM (who does have actual clout) who found a way to save HBOS through arranging a merger.

It is still early days, so I wouldn't use the fact Norway hasn't had a run on the bank yet to be a good example - they don't have world class banks like HBOS or RBS anyway - not that world class means much these days.

11

Royster,

18/09/2008 02:29:24
#14 Obviously if there is a run on oil, Norwegian banks will be in trouble. Norwegians haven't suffered yet but didn't Alex Salmond include Iceland in his 'arc of prosperity'? Those banks have been tanking. Small countries suffer most in crises be they financial or war. Simple really.
12

Royster,

18/09/2008 02:31:49
#4. But Mr Salmond was trying to attract these bankers to Edinburgh. How come they are suddenly spivs now that one of Scotland's financial symbols has been saved by an English bank?
13

ChinaBear,

Hong Kong 18/09/2008 02:45:01
No 7. These faceless spivs are also the SCOTTISH fund managers who are in to this up to their ears. Don't talk baloney by trying to blame this on the English.

The fact is that an English bank now owns the 2nd largest Scottish insurance company and the 2nd largest Scottish bank who were both rescued in times of crisis. It just shows that the UK is one country and that Scottish business is unable to function without the hated English there as customers, or lifesavers in times of collapse.

As for Mr Fish, he's showing his complete lack of power when it comes to business on this scale. More and more my opinion is moving towards the United Kingdom concept and to date, I've been open on the subject.
14

Gianni Vezzutto,

18/09/2008 02:54:44
Is this the same Alex Salmond who on BBC2 Newsnight ( 16 September ) assured Gordon Brewer and everyone listening that HBOS was a sound financial institution with an excellent capital ratio in which everyone's savings were safe?

And because he is a world class economist we should believe him and give him the chance to run an independent Scotland.

Today we have Lloyds Halifax which will be run from London EC2.

Whatever next Alex?...HSBC Royal at Canary Wharf with the Gyle a temporary call centre pending its offshoring?

There is little point in Alex trying to play with the big boys and he would be best to quit while he is only slightly behind.
15

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 18/09/2008 02:58:35
#15 Royster – If Norwegian banks had not been speculating on oil, they would not be in trouble, particularly since they have the National Oil Fund to back them up. Unfortunately all the tax from Scotland's oil has always gone and is still going directly to HM Treasury, so Scotland has no oil fund.

#16 Royster – Salmond didn't accuse Lloyd's of being "spivs". He meant the market speculators who caused the whole mess, some of them in the Halifax part of HBOS. exposure.
16

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 18/09/2008 03:01:52
# 14 Independent Scots Thinker - If Norwegian banks had not been speculating on oil, they would not be in trouble, particularly since they have the National Oil Fund to back them up. Unfortunately all the tax from Scotland's oil has always gone and is still going directly to HM Treasury, so Scotland has no oil fund.
17

,

18/09/2008 03:12:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 18/09/2008 03:23:17
Brown has admitted on the EBC that it was all his brilliant idea.
Selling out his country's economic birthright to please the English toffs.
Alex has no choice but to hold an emergency debate in the Scottish Parliament, bring in legislation ordering a 30 day cooling off period. And stop Gordo and his slimy spivs' dirty deal in its tracks.
His presence at the Ryder will be sorely missed.
19

W Smith,

Middle East 18/09/2008 03:29:25
Its naive to think Salmond or Holyrood has any clout on this issue.

Holyrood is a kiddy on "government" with very little real influence and this crisis underlines that.
20

,

18/09/2008 03:51:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
21

,

18/09/2008 04:14:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

W Smith,

Middle East 18/09/2008 04:29:44
#24 The Pict

You're too smart for me.

For years I've pretended to be a working class Fifer but unfortunately you've blown my cover.

I'm really Jewish and I go about slaughtering Palestinians - just don't tell the missus.

BTW
You wouldn't be a supporter of Alex Salmond and the Palestinian supporting SNP by any chance?
23

Royster,

18/09/2008 05:32:15
#24. Just shows what a bunch of crypto-nazis you SNP supporters are.
24

yockel,

18/09/2008 05:47:07
Has Scotland just been asset stripped by Broon and the English?
25

Royster,

18/09/2008 06:04:18
#28. No, a poorly performing high-profile Scottish bank has been saved thanks to the Union.
26

Pilrig.,

Livingston 18/09/2008 06:04:45
27 - if you want to find crypto-fascists in this country go to Ibrox and listening to the singers of the Famine Song.

27

yockel,

18/09/2008 06:06:17
Will go down well in Dunfermline though. lol
28

Pilrig.,

Livingston 18/09/2008 06:06:18
29 - you mean a poorly performing Yorkshire building society which had previously swallowed a Scottish bank.
29

Ursus arctos horribilis,

18/09/2008 06:12:16
I would imagine that the ramifications of this are going to be huge-The Bank of Scotland is much more than a bank-it is a symbol of Scottish national prestige and identity. (I know in reality its heart and brains were ripped out at the time on the Halifax takeover).

As we are led to believe that Brown himself was actively involved in promoting the takeover I wonder if he obtained any assurances as to jobs not being lost in Scotland. As a Scottish politician he must be aware of what the potential impact- with an important by-election looking in Glenrothes and what the disastrous effect of thousands of job losses in Edinburgh would mean.

The Financial services sector was portrayed as being an area of excellence-the so-called "Union dividend". Today that is looking like a sick joke-a 300 year-old institution destroyed by inept management and speculators in the City out to make a fast buck.

Liebour dont have a hope in hell of winning Glenrothes and if today's opinion polls are to be believed they are dead-men walking. The country is facing economic melt-down -for the third time in the past 100 years due to the ineptitude of a Labour Government and a constitutional crisis beckons.

If we had any armed forces left I would think there would be a good chance of a coup d'etat!
30

Black Five,

edinburgh 18/09/2008 06:18:13
Salmond may be right laterly about the spivs but the true blame rests with Howard Brown and his sharp sellers from Yorkshire.This merger now looks like a merger from hell.This bunch got B O S into deep shat.It`s because of their irresposible borrowing they`re in the mess they are in.The new name is to be Llodys /Halifax and their head office in London.B O S is gone in name.What will remain will soon be seen but you can bet there will be much change.A disgraceful episode in Scottish banking history and those in R B S better watch their backs too.
31

Ursus arctos horribilis,

18/09/2008 06:24:32
#30 Thousands of people face losing their jobs and you try and score football points with mock indignation over a football chant-what an ersewipe.

The real nazis are surely those who glorify an organisation that murdered thousands of innocent people.
32

yockel,

18/09/2008 06:25:00
When all said and done HBOS had turned into a call center centric automaton which even its employees had mostly had enough of. Probably time to let it go.
33

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta CA..for more..WAR..VOTE McCain 18/09/2008 06:33:46
17 ChinaBear,Hong Kong

Hey Dude .

Hong Kong is a suffocating steaming cauldron of humidity. Even inside the Marks and Spencer's there ,its hot and humid.

The Hong Kong human mound, is like a rabbit warren but with humidity, that I have ever see.

Have a nice day dude.
GC
34

Geoff,

sa 18/09/2008 06:36:12
Spivs-didn't think anybody still used that word-same era as Teddy Boys. Rather quaint really.
On the subject, semi-aagree with Alex but I would take it further-big business worldwide stinks.We are constantly manipulated by a ruthless,greedy,twisted minority who play roulette with 'gay'(nother old word) abandon trampling without mercy on the lives of billions. I am an avowed free enterprise man but the system is rotten-too much power in too few hands. Case in point-Arcelor Mittal controls a huge proportion of the worlds steel output-the rationale for these big mergers is always "working for the greater efficiency of scale"-which in my book should translate into lower prices. But guess what-since these mergers/takeovers steel prices worldwide have rocketed sky high out of all proportion to any general cost increases! Strange? Strange indeed!
35

Geoff,

sa 18/09/2008 06:38:25
Also a system that allows people to borrow almost
100 % of an assets market value at artificially low interest rates is a recipe for inevitable disaster. I saw this coming five years back. How come gurus like Greenspan didn't?
36

yockel,

18/09/2008 06:41:44
Yes Geoff and because it is a "national emergency" we are about to see an otherwise illegal merger rushed through with no thought to the longterm consequences. Will suit the Unionist adgenda though.
37

Oilman in Qatar,

18/09/2008 07:00:05
Forgive my ignorance, but whilst the 'spivs' (who I despise) may have delivered the 'coup de grace', it has been reported that HBOS needed to refinance $180 Billion of debt and couldn't get anyone to lend it to them at anything other than a loanshark rate. As a shareholder I'm seriously unhappy and feel desperately sorry for the thousands who will lose their jobs. Forget the petty bickering politics it's plain boring!
38

Linda,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 07:01:53
Salmond is right. Brown and Darling have killed off Bank of Scotland and put thousands of Scottish jobs at risk.

Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling are to blame for failing to introduce measures against short selling and tighter FSA regulations 18 months ago after Northern Rock debacle.
39

Boy Wonder,

18/09/2008 07:05:13
What price our economic Independence now??
40

Glasgow Expat,

Desert 18/09/2008 07:17:16
Long live the spivs I say. Salmond et al advocating banning short selling do not have a clue what they are talking about. Cheerleading a share going up is considered to be good behaviour but if they want that they have to accept the other side of the coin. It's called free market capitalism and sorts out the good from the bad. Politicians just can't handle the fact that the free market is the most powerful force. www.elliottwave.com Read it. They predicted all this.
41

Richardinho,

18/09/2008 07:50:01
Alex Salmond is doing the right thing by getting involved and trying to salvage the Scottish interest.
42

Royster,

18/09/2008 07:50:44
Alex looks slightly deranged in that photo. Either that or he has just been goosed.
43

Richardinho,

18/09/2008 07:59:44
I'm reading with incredulity, all those posters who are are celebrating this event which is potentially disastrous for Scotland is a victory for the Union.
44

Edward,

18/09/2008 08:00:48
Short selling is illegal in the US, so why hasnt Alistair Darling done something about this before?
45

Rob,

18/09/2008 08:02:22
#47. It will be a case of "Alex who?" down in London. No-one's going to listen to the "Scotland's special" rantings any longer.... and nor should they.
46

Edward,

18/09/2008 08:04:20
Just listened to someone from Unite being interviewed on Radio Scotland, and saying that she will ask for a meeting with the Shadow First Minister - eh!
Surely some mistake - did she mean the leader of the labour party in Holyrood?
Evn in the worst of times for Scotland, unionism still bleeds through the thinking of the Scottish Trades Union
47

carrottop,

Dumfries 18/09/2008 08:05:16
Get into action before anything happens to the RBS Alex, anyone can comment after the event.
48

Edward,

18/09/2008 08:05:55
#51 Rob
your not Royster are you?
At least our first minister is standing up for us. What is Brown doing? apart from selling Scotland short
49

TWC,

Ayrshire 18/09/2008 08:07:28
This is a disaster for the wee folk, Short selling is never going to benefit the man in the street. Relaxation in the 80's caused this. I was concerned that (Disnae) Kerr's only response was to attack the 1st Minister. Perhaps if it was Northern Rock we would have heard more.
50

Edward,

18/09/2008 08:08:04
I hope Darling has got a hold of the FSA by the scruff of the neck and get them to make short selling illegal, before we have another Bank go the same way
But knowing Darling, he will be sitting on his thumbs waiting on Brown giving orders from the bunker
51

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 18/09/2008 08:08:13
Alex Salmond talks of "spivs and speculators". I agree.

But just what sort of a man does Salmond think he is welcoming to Scotland in the form of Donald Trump?

Does he really imagine that Trump gained his position of power and influence without indulging in similar behaviour?
52

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 18/09/2008 08:09:29
#54

Brown much as I have no time for him quietly ensured the continued exsistence of the entity within UK ownership, Salmond resorted to impotent name calling.
53

El Sabio,

Sibbertoft 18/09/2008 08:13:04
Naked short selling is a recipe for disaster!
54

P Rayner.,

Essex. 18/09/2008 08:15:57
How does Salmon best feel he can represent Scotlands interests at an international golfing jamboree? Selling Glasgow pies? Well I'm off to Brisbane surfing meet, representing Englands interests ofcourse. Trouble is I've got to fund it myself, unlike fat guts Salmon, that is ofcourse unless some of you chaps could provide me with finance too, in Englands interests, Scotlands or anybody else, ofcourse.
55

A Crofter,

Western Isles 18/09/2008 08:28:42
Does anyone know the status of Trump's loan application?
56

Ananurhing,

18/09/2008 08:30:28
Totally reprehensible all these bottom feeding unionists above, trying to scrape up some currency out of this. This transcends any party politics and is a dark day for Scotland. One of our key institutions being sold off in a fire sale bargain basement deal, brokered by your glorious westminster leaders.

Look at what all the small independent countries with sovereign wealth funds are doing during these difficult economic times. They're aquiring institutions like HBOS. £12 billion? Chickenfeed!

This is a black day for thousands of Scottish jobs and businesses. We've yet to appreciate the full ramifications of this.

Those of you trying to score cheap political points and undermine the confidence of the country from the carcass of HBOS, need to have a good look at yourselves. Bottom feeding scum! Worse than the predatory spivs who created this situation.
57

Linda,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 08:36:09
Salmond is right about the Spivs and Speculators.
Short sellers sell shares they don't own. Other countries ban this practice. Brown and Darling have killed off Bank of Scotland and put thousands of Scottish jobs at risk.

Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling are to blame for failing to introduce measures against short selling and tighter FSA regulations 18 months ago after Northern Rock debacle.
58

voltaire's janny,

18/09/2008 08:43:14
Salmond is wrong about spivs and speculators. They are no different than those gambling on upside and growth. he is an economist but no financier it seems. If he is so confident this is a speculative bubble he should pile his cash into HBOS shares and rake it in when their "true" value re-appears. What tosh.
59

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 18/09/2008 08:43:25
#62

Like Norway who had to suspend trading on the crown in the US market on Monday and inject $16 billion worth of emergency funding. This is a global problem and no country is immune.
60

SlyFifer,

Somewhere south of Fife 18/09/2008 08:46:05
Here is the real problem. Financial markets like technology markets are moving fast and furious in ways that mystify regualtors. That the problems faced by the banks were unseen is just head in the sand reaction to things that the politicians simply do not understand. They are so far removed from the reality of 21st century business that their actions or in most cases, inactions, are nothing short of criminal negligence. Where is Brown ?. Where was the Chancellor ?. It was their stage to be on, to reassure the markets and to take a lead. Their invisibility was deepy worrying and scary. Truely we have Brown as the new Queen of De-nile. How can this dreadful man and his corrupt party survive ?. Why is there no rioting in the streets against these crass incompetents ?. Where is the backbone of the average citizen ?. Surely we can't limit our contempt for these charletons at the ballot box ?.
61

cabrach loon,

inverness 18/09/2008 08:46:11
close the stock exchange for a few days and force all short sellers to make settlement. As far as I understand it they never use money only credit and can only succed through computerised dealings. Legislate to enforce advance payment and make dealings much slower and more cash based to cut back on speculators who destroy investment and encourage gambling. In theory the stock exchange is for investment but now it is becoming more like gambling and this is too dangerous for the bulk of people with their savings and pensions put at risk by speculators - so shut down a lot of the speculation and slow down the markets - for the bulk of us this can only be good. Change must come and now - not in another year of nulab bumbling.

Añso Scotland needs to control itself more - Salmongd is right, England is destroying us.
62

Rob,

18/09/2008 08:47:36
#54. No Edward, I am not Royster. Indeed, I concur with your comment on Brown and the whole bunch of Labour no-hopers for that matter. However, Salmond is a total bystander just like you and I and for him to start now saying that tax cuts are the way out (and they are) is a bigger U turn than even Brown could dream up.
As someone else has pointed out, this one has gone - if he wants to do something positive try getting involved with RBS because they are next. Yes, they are all spivs and and speculators, the banking sector has been devoid of integrity for years but that's what and who you are dealing with and that doesn't change just because some Scots are naive enough to believe that we are special and different from everyone else.
63

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 08:49:03
Why has the UK no proper anti-trust laws like the US?
The FSA is a toothless tiger!
64

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 18/09/2008 08:57:09
#69

Like the ones that saved AIG, Lehmans, F*nny Mae and Freddy Mac?
65

Number 6,

Germany 18/09/2008 08:57:40
When are the unionistas going to admit this is the fault of Brown and Darling. They saw none of this coming, or if they did, they did nothing to prevent it. So much for Brown's "brilliant financial mind".
His stewardship of the economy was an unprecidented disaster from day one. The first minister at least sdhows he knows what he is talking about. Something you could never accuse Liebour of.

Yet another reason why we must sever links with Westminster, especially as the future will all be about saving englandshire from going even further down the drain.

I wonder if this will delay the by-election in Glenrothes even further .
66

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 18/09/2008 09:00:00
#71

the same first minister that was guaranteeing us that HBOS was safe and sound on Monday?
67

izzie,

dundee 18/09/2008 09:02:04
Well Brown did warn us he would do anything to save the union.
68

Ananurhing,

18/09/2008 09:04:07
#65

Not sure if you're disagreeing with me or not! £16 billion emergency funding could have averted this travesty.
69

Calvinist,

18/09/2008 09:05:28
Salmond is right to criticise the spivs but what he failed to do was to criticise the greed and irresponsibility that got HBOS into this position in the first place. Is he still a fan of Thatcherite laissez-faire economics? Sounds like one capitalist spiv criticising other capitalist spivs.
70

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 18/09/2008 09:07:43
#74

That was $16 Billion into their National economy to shore up foreign currency, they had suspended trading on the crown! in US markets. Not $16 billion to save a badly run already English owned private company.
71

Rob,

18/09/2008 09:07:57
#69. We do have anti-trust laws - if you read the story fully you will see that they have just been waived to allow this althought the EU (invoking the Treaty of Rome) may have something to say about that at some point.

Presumably (Number 6 in Germany) Angela Merkel saw this coming -just like Bush, Sarkozy, Medvedev etc and all the rest of the world?
72

Ananurhing,

18/09/2008 09:11:50
#76

Whatever! The resources were available for them to do what they had to.
73

gus1940,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 09:15:01
Am I being paranoid or could this be the start of the real dirty tricks being perpetrated by the hardline unionists to stop the march to independence.

Are the spivs responsible for shorting the HBOS shares actually front men for hardline unionists not entirely unconnected with the UK government.
74

McMillar,

Fife 18/09/2008 09:17:23
HBOS has completely failed and this is never a ‘merger’. Lloyds will be calling the shots and that may be a good thing as they seem to have a better handle on finances. Little point in Salmond pointing fingers and positioning here as it is now history. Did nothing to stop them getting into this position and all politicians will now be falling over themselves to analyse and offer help (which they can’t deliver). Why do we have a parliament in Scotland? Pointless. As for the FSA…….didn’t Crosby turn up there.
75

Alastair the First,

18/09/2008 09:18:57
Gordon Brown seemed to be overeager for this takeover to occur - I don't suppose the short selling was orchestrated by him by any chance? If not, he certainly welcomes it as he would love to see the Scottish economy destroyed for his own political ends.

What a pity the Scottish Government doesn't have the powers to deal fully with this type of situation. And why is short selling not illegal - selling something you don't own sounds suspiciously like fraud to me.
76

Rob,

18/09/2008 09:22:38
#79. I think you've sussed it. In fact, I think the entire Credit Crunch is a global plot, led by Gordon Brown, to deny Scotland independence and lay claim to oor oil
77

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 09:23:38
3.Royster

Youre never ending moronic comments never cease to disgust me.
The Bank of Scotland has now gone t*ts up WHILE SCOTLAND IS PART OF THE "SECURE" UNION and you fault Scottish Independence.
Youre taking stupidy into a whole new arena.
78

Ananurhing,

18/09/2008 09:26:45
#79 gus

I don't know. You have to wonder if it influenced Brown's methodology in dealing with the situation.
Nothing would surprise me. How would he have dealt with an English bank in the same situation.

Unconnected with the HBOS debacle, I am convinced that Brown is prepared to lay waste to Scotland to preserve the union. No surprises there. It's his primary objective.
79

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 09:26:47
15

Nobody is suffering this crises harder than the USA you dumb sh*t and the Sh*t is flowing out from there.
You dont even think before you post yer bile as long as you get your anti SNP dig in the content doesnt actually matter does it?
80

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 09:28:08
16

Are you now stupidly going to claim that there are no spivs in the financial sectors?
81

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 09:29:53
23

For once I agree and the only cure for that problem is full independence and autonomy.
Nice to see you finally get the big picture.
82

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 09:30:57
27

There is nothing crypto about your nazi credentials though is there?
83

Glasgow Expat,

Desert 18/09/2008 09:32:22
Carnegie was a classic spiv and speculator by the way. Stick that in your righteous pipes.
84

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 09:32:49
29

It went down thanks to the Union and the incompetant UK government isnt it funny how the UK government stopped Lloyds from taking over one bank due to competitions laws but not this time?
85

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 09:35:12
44

We are when we contol it but as we handed it over to the English in 1707 it hasnt worked out so well.
86

Andra, Dundee,

18/09/2008 09:36:54
Salmond is riding the band wagon again.
Of course he is right to blame the hedge funds - but he is making zero contribution to finding a solution since there is nothing he can do.
However in the meantime he will whip up a bit of nationalist sentiment.
87

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 09:37:25
51

Why not arent we supposed to be equal partners in a union? or are you now confirming that we are in fact just a non entity within the union?
88

St Andrew,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 09:37:34
I agree with Alex about the "Spivs & Speculators" but Alex.....going to the Ryder Cup to represent "Scottish interests"!!!!

Shot, foot, kettle, black comes to mind.
89

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 09:40:17
65

Aye lucky for them they had it to inject eh? oh wait a minute it wasnt luck it was astute financial planning and having full and total control of their resourses that allowed them to do it.
90

Andra, Dundee,

18/09/2008 09:40:18
#79 gus1940
You need some medication before you get any more paranoid.
91

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 09:42:37
72

Is that why the UK government pulled out the rug from beneath them then? just to prove AS wrong?
92

Rickie,

Limbo - formerly known as Glenrothes & Levenmouth 18/09/2008 09:42:38
It was almost comforting to hear Alex Salmond speak as lucidly as he did, a nice feeling that there is someone who actually knows what their doing and what's going on out there.

Big question for Gordy the Rat, where's the bail out like you did for Northern Rock? Or is a Scottish Bank not worth your time or consideration?
93

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 09:44:36
79

Its a fair bet that the movement towards Scottish independence helped the PM to come to the decision to allow the merger after stopping Lloyds from a previous merger on competition grounds.
94

The Strategist,

18/09/2008 09:46:28
We need one of these :

http://www.kiwibank.co.nz/index.asp
95

Alan B,

18/09/2008 09:46:48
The uk government has been running the uk economy based on spivs and speculators. An economy based on short term financial markets rather than a solid real economy.

The other key main problem is the poor and lax regulatory framework Brown brought in. (the US also have a similar issue). Banks are not a normal company and should be regulated so that they are low risk. Lax regulation meant they have run higher risk business models for greater return.

I do not believe the problems of HBOS are truely down to speculators. Yes the share price dropped for this reason but it was the underlying problem with the bank that lead to the problem. From what i understand it was the need to capitalise its loans in the next few months that lead to the underlying problem. When banks are freely lending to each other there is no problem and the banks capitalisation and gearing was ok, but with the lack of inter bank lending this became an issue.

As for Scotland losing a bank it already had when it effectively sold itself to Halifax. It was also the Halifax side that caused more of the problems that lead to the take over as Halifax had a high lending to deposit ratio being such a big mortgage lender. (check the difference between loyds deposit to mortgage lending ratio to hbos).

If scotland wanted to keep BOS scottish then it should have taken control of competition policy and not allowed it to be taken over in the first place.
96

Rob,

18/09/2008 09:49:38
suchaparcelofrogues posts. Clearly, the intellectual wing of the SNP has just awakened to add some rigour to proceedings. Rarely are we treated to such thoroughly mindless bol**ks so we should all enjoy it


By the way suchaparcelofrogues, how is the SNP's planned recruitment of Chris Hoy coming along?
97

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 09:53:18
102

Well that is trully flaterring from such an intellectual giant and with such satire and wit.
I can barely type for kowtowing.
It must have been your towering intellect which mananged to sneek a peek at yer mums logon to allow you onto the PC and no doubt we will all be thankful for that.
There just arent enough trolls on here already always room for more.
98

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 09:55:26
77

Of course they did dont tell me you believe all this happens by accident?
99

Ananurhing,

18/09/2008 09:56:10
#96

Same could be said of you at #92 re whipping up sentiment. This is a blow to Scotland's economy and Salmond is right to be angry about it.

Would you say the same of my comment at #84?
If you think he's not capable of it, you need some performance enhancing medication for your brain!

Interesting that govts around the world are injecting emergency funding. Don't you think it would have made sense for Salmond to be able to do the same?
100

Alan B,

18/09/2008 09:57:02
#92 Andra

Abit of a daft remark.

Firstly it makes sense for Salmond to try to help safeguard Scotlands interests as much as possible even if there is little that he can do. He could influence events particularly if Brown helps to.

Lets face it this merger will have been agreed by Brown early on to prevent another Northern Rock. The government are waiving competition rules for obvious reasons. As such if Brown wants he could help and influence events. Salmond can also help by putting indirect scottish government support for the bank and the sector.

You are better to try than do nothing even if it is in vein.

Secondly if you agree with him "Of course he is right to blame the hedge funds " then it is important that regulations etc are brought in to prevent it repeating. It is interesting that the lib dems and snp seem to stand on one side of the argument while the tories and labour stand on the other. Much of it depends on whether you want to put the real and wider economy first or the city of london (i can see arguments for both).
101

Alan B,

18/09/2008 10:00:10
#Royster

Your remarks are down right silly. A uk regulated bank fails at a time of economic mismanagement by a uk government whose poor regulatory framework failed, and that is a reason for staying within the union.

Your logic is if the uk does well we should stay with the union, if the uk does badly we should stay with the union. As i said no logic.
102

izzie,

dundee 18/09/2008 10:06:24
Alister Darling should resign as this happened on his watch.
103

Ubi,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 10:08:10
Surely the single biggest spiv, and Quisling without equal, in this affair is Gordon Brown? By pleading with Lloyds to act at any price, has he not thrown thousands of Scots out of jobs to save his own neck?

We would like to know what others forms of action to preserve HBOS were considered and rejected.
104

Rob,

18/09/2008 10:08:44
#103. Well thank you. Actually mummy went off to the bank in Forres to see if it's still there - so I sneaked on. Apparently it is still there and there wasn't even a queue outside - that's the good news. The bad news was that the teller who seved her was English. Surely it hasn't happened already?
105

Alan B,

18/09/2008 10:09:18
#izzie

Don't really see how you can blame Darling for this. If any uk politician is culpible then surely it is Brown for the poor lax regulatory framework and also the dithering over northern rock.
106

gasman,

Cheshire 18/09/2008 10:12:42
Salmond needs to take a reality check. This crisis is worldwide and not just affecting Scotland. If Lloyds had not rescued HBOS, it would have gone under with calamitous results.It really is brilliant being part of a Union in which all the Nations can work together to help out in a crisis for the greater good of Britain!!
107

Alan B,

18/09/2008 10:13:08
#Ubi

Atleast they acted quickly and decisively this time rather than the dithering over Northern Rock.

If you look at how much it cost to deal with NR could they have afforded the tax payers money to save HBos if it came to that. Much bigger institution.

Would blames Browns lax regulatory framework rather than the dealing with this problem.
108

Phil1,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 10:13:21
Alan B - SNP Spokesperson?

Can Alan B really be a SNP spokesperson - my he must be as he comments on everything and here was me thinking the SNP would blame the English for HBOS management's failures over the past few years.

My shares were dropping like a stone long before a few blood suckers in the financial market in Scotland as well as the rest of the world started shorting the shares.

It wasn't me that said there was no need for a rights issue because HBOS is fine and then next day said we needa 4 billion rescue sporry rights issue - it was the Chief Executive and his numpty Chairman.

It wasn't me that increased salaries and risks in proportion to each other over many years. I never overpaid billions for another company that could have bought for half price now. No there may speculators involved but the useless HOBOS management have given everyone plenty to speculate about in the past 3 years.

Don't worry Alan B the HBOS will have ensured they get fantastic payoffs and one or two may even get a seat on the new board of managemnt and ruin and new company.

I hope they move the HQ away from Edinburgh because they might not be able to get away with their poor mismanagement elsewhere.
109

brownlie,

18/09/2008 10:17:21
102 Rob

If you are looking for an intelligent contribution have a look at Alan B's comments at 101. You should note, and hopefully learn from the fact, that he does not need to make abusive comments to get his point across.
110

Alan B,

18/09/2008 10:20:27
#gasman

At what point has Salmond said this is just a domestic crisis. Everyone knows this is largely a US generated problem in which the UK is not in a particularly strong position to deal with it, due to Browns short termism allowing huge public sector deficits, massive asset price inflation (ie house prices) and from that large consumer debt. Together with a poor regulatory framework he introduced for the financial markets.

Salmond has made 2 points. One is to try to safeguard scotlands position as much as possible with little real power to influence events. And secondly to point out what he regards the reason for the failure.

"It really is brilliant being part of a Union in which all the Nations can work together to help out in a crisis for the greater good of Britain"

That remark is just ridiculous. How are any of the nations working togehter here. It is simply about the uk government waiving competition policy to allow one private sector bank to take over another due to its own lack of prudence and a poor uk regulatory framework that allowed NR to go to the wall.

111

Rob,

18/09/2008 10:25:51
Phil 1. I agree. I saw the HBOS Chairman (Lord)Dennis Stevenson adrress students at a University Business School in February. He started his presentation telling the gathering how easy he found it to make money and how we should too! As the presentation unfolded (and HBOS' problems where clearly emerging at that time) it became blindingly clear that this man had no idea what was going on in his own bank.

Unfortunately, he will be the recipient of aa nice large cheque for his lack of competence. However, I have to say that I am vastly relieved that as a consequence of todays events, he is no longer involved in such an important institution. Sadly, there are many like him in banking. I have had my affairs with Lloyds for over thirty years and they are not cheap, but they are very very solid. This move is good for Scotland and for the Bank of Scotland.
112

Alan B,

18/09/2008 10:26:23
#Phil1

Wrong just opinionative not snp.

"I hope they move the HQ away from Edinburgh because they might not be able to get away with their poor mismanagement elsewhere"

Why would anyone in Scotland be happy about Scotland losing head office jobs? Secondly as a point of fact, when BOS sold itself to Halifax it was the halifax management that took over and replace BOS management. The real headquarters and decision making of the combined bank was down south.
113

Embra Don,

18/09/2008 10:29:08
# 114 Phil1,
So, having observed all this perceived incompetence over the years, you held onto the shares? Either you are using hindsight or you have fabulous foresight but no brains? Presumably, as you have no faith in any Scottish based banks you could have moved your investment to a safe bank down south.
114

Embra Don,

18/09/2008 10:33:04
Any fans of the de-mutualisation of building societies around today? I've heard that the influence of the Halifax management on BoS was described as Halibanisation by BoS employees.
115

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 18/09/2008 10:34:15
Mr Salmond has cancelled his trip to the Ryder Cup to "represent the Scottish interests", as the merger between the banks looks set to be confirmed today.
Is the comma in the wrong place? Either way the First Minister would have been the proverbial spare pric*
116

Alan B,

18/09/2008 10:35:18
#Rob

Lloyds were renouned for being very risk averse. Apparently they were slagged of abit in the city for their approach. But obviously in the bad times then this safety first approach has paid dividends.

Comparing the 2 banks. HBOS had roughtly lent in mortgages the same as it had in deposits. While Lloyds had about 1/3 more savings than loans.

With what has happened i agree that a more risk averse strategy is better and believe the government should have regulated as such to affect that. (eg gearing ratios etc).

"This move is good for Scotland and for the Bank of Scotland."

Do not see how you can think it is good for Scotland rather than a good way of dealing with the problem that occurred. Losing a headoffice and the jobs and decision making that goes with it cannot be good news. Even if it had already losts it when it was effectively taken over by Halifax.
117

Alan B,

18/09/2008 10:40:14
#120 Embra Don

"de-mutualisation of building societies"

Very interesting point.
118

Embra Don,

18/09/2008 10:40:52
One small upside from this fiasco is that when, in a few years, we need a National Bank to regulate the economy and institutions of Scotland, there will be a suitable name available. The concept that unemployment in the "north" to avoid the S-E overheating, as promulgated by the Bank of England will no longer be acceptable.
119

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 10:43:33
117

How will this move benefit Scotland as a nation?
You can wait til your mum comes home before you answer if you wish.
120

Eddie,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 10:48:08
Ever since Patullo, the BoS has been a joke. Everyone who has left the Bank in that time says the same - the business plan was simply get as big as possible, take in as much business as possible, and well, we're a Bank aren't we? It'll be alright - Banks don't lose money.

Hornby, it is said in the story, will be the first to be issued with a black bin liner - and that's the good news. What else will he be issued with? How many millions of a pay-off will he get for being so greedy?
121

brownlie,

18/09/2008 10:49:28
121 mercutio

Should Salmond leave looking after the Scottish interests to Gordon Brown?
122

voltaire's janny,

18/09/2008 10:52:51
Isn't it hilarious how the Hootsmon suppresses the word f^nny even as it's on everyone's lips so to speak. Shower of tw@ts.
123

tommy M,

18/09/2008 11:27:53
Yes the crisis is worldwide but what did Gordon Brown do to avert this? He actively pushed for this and is bending the competition rules to get it through asap.

And if this can happen to a solid bank, what next?

i would have loved to have been a fly on the wall at his meeting with Sir Victor on Monday night.

This is damaging to Scotland and Broon must be delighted with himself. Shame on him, really.
124

Rob,

18/09/2008 11:32:29
Alan B #122.

Yes, all of that is true but you can read what you are getting from a bank by reading the Balance Sheet on the internet. I have always preferred safety to outright maximum return - I make no apologies for that and with Lloyds TSB I got exactly what it said on the tin. Which bank would you have preffered to have been in this morning?

It is good for Scotland because it makes a Scottish Institution, which has an enhanced reputation with Scots because it is perceived to be Scottish, safer. HBOS is about as Scottish as that other great Scottish Institution, Diageo. i.e. lip service at very best. I actually don't care who owns it - I want my money to be safe and to be there when I want it and I think I will continue to get that with Lloyds Halifax. In time they will get rid of the rot which will eat away the beneficial finacial deal we see today and we will have propriety once more in the heart of British and therefore Scottish Banking.

Lloyds have already made commitments to Scotland in their announcement spiel on their website - you may find ultimately that they abandon the Lloyds name in Scotland altogether and trade as BOS exclusively up here. They say they will keep the Scottish HQ etc and, ridiculously, the bank notes. In time competition regime will bear down and I can see them selling of C&G, Birmingham Midshires, Scottish Widows etc and quite possibly the Bank of Scotland itself to ensure compl;iance. What I am sure of is that that they will reduce their exposure to retail banking in Scotland if independence really looked likely.
125

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 18/09/2008 11:36:57
Bring back the weekly wage packet, the banks have too much control over our hard earned, they should have that control removed immediately. I don't trust them...Any of them...
126

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 11:42:17
129

Its because of Scotlands irrelevance within the Union that we cant do anything about looking after our own institutions.
127

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 11:43:30
Alex Salmond's rant against "spivs and speculators" doesn't really make sense. The supposed short selling was said to have taken place on Monday and Tuesday and Salmond is implying that this forced the merger. But we were told yesterday (Wednesday) that the talks on the merger were at an "advanced stage" so these talks must have started some time ago and could not possibly have been set up as a response to supposed short selling. You cannot set up talks and merge two large banks in a matter of a few hours.

Also, Salmond says he is concerned about jobs etc in Scotland and clearly wishes to maintain a financial services industry in Scotland. All banks are involved in trading and fund management so, according to Salmond, they all have "spivs". How, therefore, does he intend to encourage a financial services industry in Scotland when he, as First Minister, attacks some of them so vehemently as "spivs" Abuse and insults like this might aid his battles against other politicians but this is hardly the most mature way to encourage financial business in Scotland. Who is likely to operate in a country where the leader of government insults you in this way - it must make you feel that you are not wanted.
128

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 18/09/2008 11:45:27
A sad day for HBOS employees, but not it would seem for those unionists who are actually gloating over job losses and lets remember job losses not only in Scotland! Nor just with HBOS, but of course a little thing like someone else's job doesn't matter much when your trying to save the union.

So desperate have they become for 'good news' as they see it, they will even sink to these depths.

Says it all really
129

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 18/09/2008 11:54:06
The Blessed Alex calling people "spivs"? Pot, kettle, black ...
130

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 18/09/2008 11:55:42
134

A good point Ugly. Salmond knew about these takeover talks months ago. Donald Trump told him.
131

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 18/09/2008 11:58:51
#14, Independent Scots Thinker

You argued:

"Had Scotland been independent, little ol' (air punchin') Alex wouldn't have been able to do a thing to change the outcome. In fact, it was our BRITISH PM (who does have actual clout) who found a way to save HBOS through arranging a merger."

Isn't it the case that the Bank of England being state-owned enjoys a far greater amount of protection than other banks? In fact, as a state-owned bank the Bank of England is not prone to takeover bids.

Scotland's institutions (financial and otherwise) seem to enjoy a subordinate status within the union. This, to my mind, simply enhances the argument for independence; and the sight of unionists gloating over the fact that our Scottish institutions are subordinate hardly fills me with enthusiasm for your beloved union.
132

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 18/09/2008 11:58:52
#14, Independent Scots Thinker

You argued:

"Had Scotland been independent, little ol' (air punchin') Alex wouldn't have been able to do a thing to change the outcome. In fact, it was our BRITISH PM (who does have actual clout) who found a way to save HBOS through arranging a merger."

Isn't it the case that the Bank of England being state-owned enjoys a far greater amount of protection than other banks? In fact, as a state-owned bank the Bank of England is not prone to takeover bids.

Scotland's institutions (financial and otherwise) seem to enjoy a subordinate status within the union. This, to my mind, simply enhances the argument for independence; and the sight of unionists gloating over the fact that our Scottish institutions are subordinate hardly fills me with enthusiasm for your beloved union.
133

Memyself&I,

18/09/2008 12:00:13
Word of the day = SPIVS.
First used by the Daily Mail on Monday. Alex must have liked the sound of it and now can't held himself saying it.

Anyway, no wonder that tool is annoyed. This whole episode sends a very clear message to the Scottish people and not one that wee fat eck likes.

The thing is, HBOS is a UK bank, as is LTSB. HBOS is not a Scottish Bank, not even by name. There will be job losses, but far less than there would have been in HBOS had gone under.
This is not and never was a Scotland versus London battle of the banks. Banks do not think in this way, only small mined petty Scottish politicians and then small army of seperatists do.
Life will go on, with little or no change for most.
134

Duke,

18/09/2008 12:03:11
These Spivs should be put against the wall and shot. Short selling should also be made illegal.
135

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 12:03:54
140 gregor Addison
Your comparison is completely erroneous. The Bank of England is a central bank in charge of the currency. It is not a trading bank in the manner of HBOS.
136

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 12:06:54
142 Duke
All banks are involved in trading and fund management. So that is how you would seek to maintain a financial services industry in Scotland - shoot some of their employees.
137

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 12:08:50
141 Memyself&I
You are correct.The way in which some people have attempted to view this as some kind of London v Scotland battle is childish in the extreme.
138

,

18/09/2008 12:21:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
139

Ananurhing,

18/09/2008 12:23:48
#134 Ugly George

Your post makes no sense. The spivs and speculators Salmond's talking about have nothing to do with solid banking as we know it.

Brown is more or less agreeing with Salmond by finally admitting he needs to "Clean up" the financial system immediately!
No sh*t Sherlock!

Long before Monday/Tuesday, the govt and the city knew how exposed HBOS was to the bottom feeders. What surprised everyone was the ferocity of the feeding frenzy, and the tactics involved. It's what hedge fund managers and others excel at.

Bet they're p*ssing themselves in Abu Dhabi right now! Shrugging their shoulders at each other saying "Liquidity schmiquidity! Let's wait a wee while then we'll go shopping."

On the bright side though, I see there's a new gastro pub opening up on The Mound!


140

brownlie,

18/09/2008 12:25:04
143 & 144 Ugly

You did not take long to contradict yourself

"It is not a trading bank in the manner of HBOS"

and

"All banks are involved in trading and fund management".
141

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 12:25:07
145

Oh absolutely London financial institutes are in no way involved with this at all and shame on anybody who claims they are.
142

brownlie,

18/09/2008 12:28:07
146 Sam

Quite right, Sam, we unionists would never make comments bordering on the racist, would we??

I suppose that by "ruining it for everyone you mean they don't make constructive comments such are your own?
143

Ugly George,

edinburgh 18/09/2008 12:35:11
148 Brownlie
OK I'll rephrase the comment. All Trading banks are involved in tradind and fund management. There is no contradiction now.
144

Who uses the word spiv, anyway?,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 12:40:21
Site just lost my first, long comment...

Normal short selling is not illegal in the US, nor in any major financial market I'm aware of, and there's little chance of anyone making it so. Naked short selling is illegal in the US in certain circumstances. Similar regulations might have helped here, but HBOS was not in so shiny a position that we can say for sure it would not have been normally shorted anyway.

Any bank traded on the world markets would be susceptible to similar dangers. The US have had some major failures of their own lately. Scotland being independent would do nothing to help this; all you'd achieve from it would be to take away the vote of Scottish MPs as to how the London Stock Market should be regulated. Conversely, the Union's greater resources allow it to bail out a failing major bank with less impact across the country as a whole than would be the case if Scotland were going it alone.

Not allowing Scottish banks to be traded abroad post independence would solve that issue, but raise more sinister ones. Every time a bank ran into some minor difficulty or was expanding and required investment, it would need to be found inside the country. And if a major bank did die, you've a smaller chance of brokering a deal with other banks to save it, and government intervention could be utterly disastrous. (Consider that RBOS is one of the world's largest banks, with an estimated 806 billion dollars in assets, most of them abroad, and we're a country of a mere five million people. If it failed, any serious attempt at a rescue package by the government would comprehensively break us economically.)

Smaller countries run larger risks in crisis situations. This is fairly simple to understand. If you're arguing for independence, be honest. It has down sides, and this is most definitely one of them. Almost every plan you'll ever make will have some potential down side. Bleating that there are none kills your argument; accept them, state them up front if
145

Who uses the word spiv, anyway?,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 12:42:38
possible, so we know you've thought about it long enough to be worth listening to, and make your case that the advantages outweigh the acknowledged disadvantages.
146

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 12:49:33
147 Ananurhing
Sorry but your post has not addressed the points I made. As long as trading and fund management takes place as it does in every western developed nation there will inevitably be an element of speculation. All trading is, by definition, speculation. Why else would you buy an asset unless you "speculate" that it will rise and why would you sell an asset unless you "speculate" it will fall - unless you need the cash. Short selling is a tool often used by fung managers and traders as a "hedge" against falling share prices and is an essential part of fund management - again in virtually all western developed countries. Many of the current investment schemes which guarantee that you will not lose money and were set up in response to previous failings such as endowments etc. depend, to an extent, on hedge funds.

The tightening up proposed by Brown refers to the fact that companies such as Lehman Brothers were allowed to borrow much more than their assets and HBOS has had similar problems. This is completely separate from any move to restrict short selling or hedge fund management so there is no agreement between Brown as you stated. They were talking about different aspects.
147

Weegiewarbler,

sailing 18/09/2008 12:54:30
Independence Naysayers - et al.

Interesting comments - that attempts to spin the Independence pointer to a "Scotland can't survive" scare story here.

Look back to the REAL cause - it started with deregulation of the US banking industry by Bush.

Then LONDON (not Edinburgh) followed - then this as HBOS followed on large part the trading practices of London.

HAD Edinburgh been in charge it may well have been different - perhaps not - irrespective DO NOT lay the blame anywhere else than those who instituted the laws to allow it to happen.

Now - "Gordon gets merger going" - Twaddle & Spin.
Gordon brown could no more arrange this than win the next election - what he could do is let Loyds know it will not face impediments.
Best beleive if it was not in Loyds best interest and if it could not pick up a juicy apple at almost no cost - it would not.

Interestingly - HBOS is SOLVENT - why would there be a "run" on a solvent bank (It's why Loyds wants it after all) - who has the financial wherewithall to make this happen, the uncounted billions. Governments or institutes as big as Loyds are about it. It takes that to start the ball rolling.

"Takeovers" involving billions and billions with potentially catastrophic results for the acquiree are NOT decisions typically made overnight. This was fast.

Investigation - who started this ball rolling - may never happen as the outcome may prove more interesting than the story itself to date.
148

,

18/09/2008 12:55:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
149

Class On Grass,

On a Ledge 18/09/2008 12:56:30
140 True enough with Scottish institutions being public and vulnerable to takeover. Insurance companies have all been moved south (from Perth).
Halifax was the main mortgage lender. Does this go back to the sub-prime problem. Was Halifax over-stretched before it merged with BOS – Makes you wonder. I just hope the other Scottish financials are more stable.
Personally, if a tink comes up and asks for 100,000 for a new caravan ( or a new sub in prime condition), and they earn intermittent amounts from the tattie-picking and sale of second hand shoes, then I would not be handing over the cash.
This probably means I can never be a banker.
If I did allow this transaction, and then the repayments failed, I should expect to have to sell my house and move in with the tink in a tent.
So, I expect to see those responsible in placed in refugeee camps on the outskirts of Edinburgh and London, Their properties, which were but with illicit gains resold in a sheriff's auction.

150

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 13:04:16
160 Weegiewarbler
"Had Edinburgh been in charge it might have been different"

Possibly but not markedly so as HBOS conducted the vast majority of its business in the rest of the UK and would, therefore, still have been operating under the rules of the FSA in London. Edinburgh would only have been able to regulate the much smaller part of the operations which took place in Scotland.
151

Phil o Brian,

18/09/2008 13:07:08
I think Alec is being a little selective. He is right that the "spivs" finished off HBOS, but it was the management that brought it to its knees.
They over extended the bank and for the last 3/6 months have stopped lending, which is having a big impact on Scottish business and house buyers.
They forgot they were bankers and thought they were property speculators.
152

brownlie,

18/09/2008 13:08:11
161 Sam

I'm glad you've showed yourself up in your true colours. There is no need for further comment from me on your posting - it bellows for itself!
153

Arfur,

18/09/2008 13:12:14
This is a sad day for Scotland.

English government yet again selling Scotland short.

Those Scots above saying the union has saved this bank, you will find the union has cost this bank (and the workers of it) - you are no better than the people in Westminster that created this disaster for Scotland. I am ashamed you share a birth place with you.
154

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 13:12:33
161

numbnuts the BNP consider Scots Irish and Welsh as foreigners.
Its rally cry is Britain for the English idiot boy.
155

,

18/09/2008 13:20:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
156

guenevere,

18/09/2008 13:23:27
So salmond is "angry" about the bank crisis,what the hell did he do to try and avert such a crisis,b@ll@cks all.
157

guenevere,

18/09/2008 13:24:35
Not a fan of brown,but it was gordon brown who persuaded the chairman of Lloyds TSB to launch a takeover bid.
158

brownlie,

18/09/2008 13:26:18
171

If you were right on this occasion you are straying into un-familiar territory.
159

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 13:31:25
172 Guenevre
Just as a matter of interest, which incarnation of Alex Salmond is speaking on this issue?

The recent "business friendly" incarnation which seeks to turn Scotland into another "Celtic Tiger" economy with low taxation and low regulation.

or

The previous socialist incarnation which feels that it is the role of government to regulate the freedom and excesses of business.
160

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 13:33:50
The only "spivs" are the government.

I'm no economist or accountant, but it the banking crisis seem to me to be a logical consequence of the encouragement of borrowing and failure to regulate things like the housing market properly.

The banks have lent away all a huge part of their capital. Even though they may have billions on their books, it is all tied up in property etc that they have lent people money to buy. In other words they cannot immediately realise those assets. So what if they have billions of pounds worth of property on their books? This property consists of people's homes and business premises.

To realize the assets, they would have to kick people out and demand immediate payment, which just ain't goin' to happen.

Add to this the growing proportion of bad debt, drop the value of the housing market and presto! You have problems.

This could all have been avoided if stupid labour had thought to put some regulations in place to keep a lid on things rather than concentrating on whether or not people are allowed to smoke in pubs.
161

guenevere,

18/09/2008 13:38:24
175. Your guess is as good as mine!
162

Publius,

London 18/09/2008 13:44:39
This board must hold the record for silly comments and some of the silliest were made by the first minister. They need to be nailed before another myth establishes itself in nationalist thinking.
To deal with some of them.
(1) The collapse of HBOS was not caused by short selling. Only about 6 per cent of its stock was loaned to others and available for short selling: it takes much more than 6 per cent to change the value of a company. And anyone this week who bet the price of HBOS shares was going to fall has lost money: LloydsTSB is paying more than twice as much as HBOS's most recent stock exchange valuation.
(2) All mainly-mortgage banks are in trouble. HBOS is of a kind with Northern Rock, Bradford & Bingley and Alliance & Leicester. The sins these banks have committed are obvious: giving mortgages to people who can't afford to repay them; financing mortgages from the short term money market which can dry up at any time; exchanging securities with US finance houses. These sins were all committed by the people who have run HBOS, not outsiders. And HBOS was doing them a year ago when Alex Salmond said what a splendid company HBOS was.
(3) The fall of HBOS was not engineered by bankers in London or the UK government. It was engineered in Edinburgh by the HBOS chief executive supported by the HBOS chairman and board

163

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 13:48:24
Apparently it isnt just AS who is furious with the London Spivs the Daily Mail has splashed their fury at them all over their headlines as well.
Obviously this excuse for a tabloid wants to spin the story towards AS as usual.
164

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 13:51:08
179

Seems like you have insider info nobody else seems to have including the Scottish and UK government.
Or else your full of sh*t as usual.
I am inclined to go with the latter based on your track record on these blogs.
165

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 13:57:06
175

How about the First minister who requires full control of the bridge of his ship in order to steer it through the storm as opposed to sitting on the bridge as the ship is remotely controlled from shore?
I wonder why no other nation on the planet has asked Westminster to take over their financial institutions during this "global crises"?
I mean surely if the union is the answer to Scotlands prosperity and safety during these dark days why not every other nations as well? what makes us so unique?
166

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 13:57:45
180
Oh dear - yet another conspiracy theory - in amongst all of this the Daily Mail is apparently targetting Alex Salmond.

181
Publius is quite correct. If the price of HBOS shares was forced down by short sellers then these short sellers would have lost a bundle as, by the nature of short selling, they would hace to buy them back at the current price. If Alex Salmond's assessment is correct he should be celebrating the fact that a lot of these "spivs" must have got their fingers burnt.
167

guenevere,

18/09/2008 14:05:51
Come on people,give credit where credit is due, brown did his bit to try and salvage a bad situation,at least we have averted a northern rock situation.
168

Linda,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 14:06:09
Lets never forget Brown and Darling's failure to act to stop "Short Sellers" plus their lax regulation of the financial markets despite Northern Rock and Bradford and Bingley has resulted in loss of thousands of Scots jobs and damaged Edinburgh's reputation.

No way back for Labour now in Scotland.

An independent Scotland would have a Central Bank with teeth and a Financial Services Authority which would be guided by the traditional Scottish banking methods rather than the spivs in the City or super salesmen who were running Halifax.
169

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 14:06:59
182
You obviously have virtually no understanding of how these issues come about. Trading of all kinds of shares, bonds, derivatives etc from all over the world takes place in the UK under the regulations of the FSA. So billions of pounds of assets from countries all over the world are traded under what you call "Westminster" regulations. Also Westminster has not, as you appear, taken over HBOS. HBOS trades in the same way as all other trading baks and was taken over by another trading bank. Your point about "no other nation has asked Westminster to take over its financial institutions during this goblal crisis" therefore is completely erroneous and makes no sense.
170

Linda,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 14:10:45
# 179

This was the third attempt in 6 months by Short Sellers in City of London to bring down HBOS yet Brown and Darling did nothing to stop this immoral practice which if allowed to continue will bring down others perhaps Royal Bank next.
171

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 14:17:55
185 Linda
Sorry but this is yet more delusion from somebody with no or very little understanding of the issues. HBOS conducted the vast majority of its business in the rest of the UK. A separate Scottish regulator would only have been able to regulate the small minority of the operations which took place in Scotland. It is therefore, unlikely, that this would have made a significant difference to their plight. Also you may not be aware that the shares of banks from all over the world are traded in London. You can buy shares in the Bank of Ireland and Allied Irish Banks very easily there so you could not protect HBOS from short sellers on the London Stock Exchange.

Short selling is common in virtually all developed countries and is now regarded as an essential part of fund management. The idea that an independent Scotland could operate any significant share trading/fund management businesses with a ban on short selling is naive in the extreme.
172

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 14:19:43
186

Well I am certainly no expert but then neither is anybody else on these blogs.
And anybody who has a real understanding of how these issues come about is already a billionaire the rest of us just have to go with the flow.
And I totally agree it wouldnt make any sense for any other country to ask Westminster to take care of its financial institutes but you seem to think it makes sense for Scotland to allow Westminister to control its financial institutes and regulate them.
Why is that?
173

guenevere,

18/09/2008 14:20:49
Linda. IGNORE ME IF YOU WISH,but you cannot ignore the fact that brown Interveined to try and save the HBOS.
174

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/09/2008 14:21:41
Whilst the practice of short-selling may have quickened events some posters need to realise that HBOS was in a trouble a long time before the sharks and spivs circled.

The share price may have halved at one point yesterday but that is nothing compared to the 5-fold drop in HBOS shares since last year. HBOS's business model was exposed by the credit crunch.


175

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 14:22:35
189

"A separate Scottish regulator would only have been able to regulate the small minority of the operations which took place in Scotland"

Why would a Scottish financial institution only have a small minority of its operations in Scotland?

Would you describe this situation as a union benefit to Scotland?
176

ThomasP,

18/09/2008 14:25:14
I am quite disgusted by several Unionists have taken this crises to be some sort of victory for the Union...

Perhaps someone should explain to me why one Scottish bank failing is a victory for the Union?
177

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 14:25:57
188 Buckpull Loon
Have you done any short selling or Contracts for Differences as you do not appear to understand how it works. You have only described only one aspect of it.

If there has been selling to force the price down then some of them must have been caught with open short positions and so must have lost a great deal of money. If they all had long positions (ie if they had all bought back at a lower price) then the price of the shares would have been forced back up by this before the news of the merger broke.
178

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 14:26:23
191

No he didnt he intervened to save Northen Rock now that was what you would describe and intervening here he allowed HBOS to be swallowed up in spite of the regulation on competition in spite of stopping Lloyds before on another merger attempt.
179

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/09/2008 14:31:06
#183 They did get burnt - and serves them bloody well right.
180

guenevere,

18/09/2008 14:31:41
THIS from Bloomberg.com: Brown Did `Everything' Possible to Ensure Lloyds' HBOS Purchase Sept. 18 (Bloomberg) -- U.K. Prime Minister Gordon Brown, stung by plunging approval ratings and criticism over last year's nationalization of Northern Rock Plc, worked to ensure Lloyds TSB Group Plc's purchase of HBOS Plc today, heading off the demise of Britain's largest mortgage lender.
181

bill-alba,

fife 18/09/2008 14:32:30
A scottish bank goes to the wall the britnat posters give a loud cheer. Tells you all you need to know.
182

guenevere,

18/09/2008 14:33:13
196. Wrong again!
183

Ananurhing,

18/09/2008 14:33:14
#159 Ugly George

Touche! Apologies if I over simplified what I thought you were trying to say. Thanks for the elucidation.
Don't entirely agree with you, and as to what Brown means we'll wait and see. Probably more dither and fudge.

Anyway, must go take care of business while it's still there. £250 billion emergency funding injected overnight worldwide? Hold on folks. This white knuckle ride has just cleared a crest. Yeehah! Onward and downward!
184

guenevere,

18/09/2008 14:35:14
199. Grow up,no one is "cheering" it is much to serious for that,and it could get a lot worse.
185

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/09/2008 14:35:42
#194 I don't think anybody is celebrating - if anything there has been a dour acceptance that the merger was the only option to save HBOS.

And as far the Nats bringing this down to a union vs independence argument - HBOS would have been in trouble within an independent Scotland too - or are you forgetting that it operates outside of Scotland?
186

guenevere,

18/09/2008 14:36:31
Brown discussed the deal with Lloyds' Chairman Victor Blank 48 hours before the banks' boards voted on the 12.2 billion pound ($22.2 billion) transaction as the government rewrote rules to prevent a veto by competition authorities. Officials have been involved in talks with the banks for weeks.
187

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 14:36:46
193
Once again you are revealing your lack of knowledge. HBOS was formed as a merger of Bank of Scotland and the Halifax. The Halifax was the bigger partner as it was a mortgage/trading bank with operations all over the UK while nearly all of BOS business was just in Scotland. Therefore the combined group conducted the vast majority of its business elsewhere in the UK so was operating under UK FSA rules. That is why an independent Scottish regulator would only have been able to regulate the small minority of business which was conducted in Scotland. If Scotland is independent you cannot expect its regulator to regulate business which takes place elsewhere.

As far as your other point is concerned, I do not know if this will be a benefit to Scotland or not. If HBOS was in difficulty would it have been good for Scotland for it to go bust? I was not posting comments on whether or not this was good or bad for Scotland. I was merely trying to clear up so many patently false and distorted comments from others.
188

Ananurhing,

18/09/2008 14:37:12
#173
"it was gordon brown who persuaded the chairman of Lloyds TSB to launch a takeover bid."

Are you kidding? The guy thought all his birthdays had come at once!
189

K McDonald,

Glasgow 18/09/2008 14:37:13
#195>>>If there has been selling to force the price down then some of them must have been caught with open short positions and so must have lost a great deal of money.<<

You are correct. Those who piled in on short positions yesterday morning will have lost a fortune.

Wonder what "qualified economist" and scourge of the Spivs Salmond would be saying if it was HBOS or RBS rescuing L.TSB?
190

K McDonald,

Glasgow 18/09/2008 14:37:20
#195>>>If there has been selling to force the price down then some of them must have been caught with open short positions and so must have lost a great deal of money.<<

You are correct. Those who piled in on short positions yesterday morning will have lost a fortune.

Wonder what "qualified economist" and scourge of the Spivs Salmond would be saying if it was HBOS or RBS rescuing L.TSB?
191

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/09/2008 14:42:19
#196 You clearly don't know your compettiton law - the merger does not break regulations on competition. Competition law specifically allows the governemnt to wave/relax rules regards mergers if it is in the national interest.

In this case I think they have no option but to - in the long-run a different view may be taken. Once credit markets stabilsie and open up again the there may be the possibility of a future government forcing Lloyds-TSB to divest some of its interests.
192

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 14:54:36
209

The merger didnt even go through the motions of checking whether it did or not so how do you know it doesnt? it was approved and rubber stamped with indecent haste all in the national interest of course but who,s national interests? certainly no Scotlands.
193

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 14:56:41
209

"In this case I think they have no option but to - in the long-run a different view may be taken. Once credit markets stabilsie and open up again the there may be the possibility of a future government forcing Lloyds-TSB to divest some of its interests."

How can it if as you say there is no issue with the regulations on competition?
Do you make this up as you go along?
194

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 15:02:03
210
So what would have been in Scotland's interests? - Leaving HBOS to struggle on and possibly go bust.
195

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:12:35
205

"The Halifax was the bigger partner as it was a mortgage/trading bank with operations all over the UK while nearly all of BOS business was just in Scotland."

Not quite true the Halifax may have been the UKs biggest mortgage lender but the BOS specialises in business banking throughout the UK therefore the Halifax didnt swallow up the BOS because the BOS still deals with all the business banking for both institutes and the Halifax concentrates on the mortgage lending for both.
Now however they are both swallowed up by Lloyds of London with the blessing of the UK government.
Why didnt the UK government allow the Northern Rock to be swallowed up why bail them out?
196

guenevere,

18/09/2008 15:13:12
210. thousands of people have their life savings in HBOS,not to mention their current accounts,would you prefer HBOS to go bust and people to lose everything!
197

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:15:01
212

Why would it be? what an idiotic question. Why didnt the UK government bail out the HBOS as they did with Northern Rock? and if Scotland had been independent would not a Scottish Government have been able to do a Northern Rock for HBOS?
198

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/09/2008 15:15:08
#211 The only person who makes it up as they go along is you.

You cannot compare like with like.

A merger at present can be argued to be in the antional interest as it prevents a major bank collapsing and damaging the economy.

A divestment in future could happen if the condition of the financial markets improves - any divested part of the bank would not face the same risks that HBOS faces right now.

But then an intellectual pygmy like yourself probably does not understand that.
199

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:16:00
214

What another idiotic question are you saying there were no other alternatives?
200

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:19:31
216

Who decides if its in the national interests then?
a political party who is well known for putting the national interests before its own you mean?
And relative to you I am an intellectual god.
201

guenevere,

18/09/2008 15:20:24
217. Well you seem to be the oracle,you tell me the alternative!
202

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:21:16
219

See post 215.
203

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/09/2008 15:22:17
#217 The only alternatives were to let HBOS go bust (not really an option) or for the government nationalise it.

Letting Lloyds-TSB merge with HBOS was the lesser of 3 evils.

As for comparisons with Northern Rock - soem miss the point. Unlike Northern Rock the offer on the table from Lloyds was too good to refuse. Northern Rock on the otherhand only had the piss-poor offer from Virgin Money which would have meant no guarantee of any taxpayers money being returned. A nationalisation was the only realistic alternative to the firm going bust.
204

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:24:22
221

So why didnt the Government nationalise the Northern Rock or let them go bust? how come the Northern Rock had a 3rd option open to them? is it because the Chancer of the Exchequer just happened to have his own mortgage with the Northern Rock?
205

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:27:53
221

Ah so now its down to the actual amount offered and not political at all well why didnt you say so in the first place instead of waffling about the national interest?
You change your answers more often than the Government U turns.
206

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:33:25
221

Hold on sunshine the offer to HBOS share holders is shares not cash and the share value is a pittance so your waffling again.
207

Who uses the word spiv, anyway?,

18/09/2008 15:34:01
222

If the government could have sold off Northern Rock reasonably, they would have. It's better that another bank salvages things out of their capital with the possible prospect of returning the bank to profitability than it would be if the taxpayers ended up having to make up the shortfall. The only offers on the table though were from people who wanted a lot of government money to subsidise its return to profitability while hoping to reap all the benefits when it did so.

HBOS is not in as desperate a case, so the measures taken to fix things are less desperate.

166

I was continuing my last post, since the wonderful editing software ate the end of it.
208

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:37:00
225

If the government could have sold off Northern Rock reasonably, they would have.

Says who?

HBOS share holders are only being offered shares not cash and the share price is cr*p by all accounts and nobody with HBOS is happy about it so that arguement is just pure bullsh*t.
209

Sedov,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:38:44
Salmond is an opportunist and a hypocrite. He is a bougeois nationalist and his party has no programme to challenge the profit system ( capitalism) which causes and tolerates the spivs he condemns. If anyone believes that an independent scotland under the SNP would have the power to change the present system then they are living in cloud cuckoo land. Would Salmond nationalise the banks under workers control under a planned socialisist economy? - NO! - Anything less would leave the system open to the same abuse.
210

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:40:31
227

So you would rather live in a capitalistist Scotland within the union than an Independent capitalist Scotland is that what what your saying?
211

Who uses the word spiv, anyway?,

18/09/2008 15:41:42
226

They were trying to sell off Northern Rock for weeks, didn't you pay any attention?

If the government has to bail a bank out, you and I eventually have to pay for it. This, as should be obvious, is a Bad Thing. It's much better for all of us if another bank takes on its troubles.

Shares in Lloyds TSB are not by any means a bad thing to have, they were slightly up today. Shares instead of cash is quite usual in takeovers.
212

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:45:03
229

It's much better for all of us if another bank takes on its troubles.

bullsh*t then we are back to the competition regulations arent we?
What if one big massive blooter of a financial institute decided to buy up all the banks at a wonderfully astronomical sum would we still be better off?
213

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:47:14
229

Given shares instead of cash during a major recession is a good thing? are you for real?
214

Who uses the word spiv, anyway?,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 15:47:54
230

We'd be in trouble then, yes. Luckily we're not there yet. And yes, every way of dealing with it carries some nasty costs, which is why there's been a panic. Still, given the trade-off between the banking field being marginally less competitive than it was and losing a huge chunk of taxes which could be used for healthcare or education... the former is, for the present, probably the better choice.
215

Who uses the word spiv, anyway?,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 15:49:27
232

Depends what the shares are in, doesn't it?

Not all shares go down in a recession. Energy companies have been doing quite well recently. Banks seen to be running their affairs responsibly aren't necessarily going to suffer badly in the recession - and if you don't like having the shares, you can sell them straight off. That's your call.
216

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:49:55
Is there any reason why all banks shouldnt be nationalised?
217

guenevere,

18/09/2008 15:50:11
220. For the love of the lord,what are you on!
218

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:51:47
234

Yes it does and giving workers shares in a financial institute during a recession is such a wonderful idea why are the ungrateful b*stards complaining about it?
219

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:52:31
236

A seat what are you on?
220

guenevere,

18/09/2008 15:54:08
235. You betcha,we live in a free enterprise country,not communist Russia.
221

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:54:28
233

Ah so now we are down to reason number 3 taxation.
Any reason why taxation wasnt reason number 1?
222

Who uses the word spiv, anyway?,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 15:54:33
235

Yes. If your banks fail and they're private, you can enter talks with another bank to buy them out.

If your banks fail and they're nationalised, you need someone to buy out your whole country. It was trying to bail out the Darien Venture, which wasn't even nationalised, just absolutely huge, which broke Scotland as a country economically last time and sent them scurrying into the Union. On no account must that ever be repeated.
223

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:56:27
239

Since when has enterprise ever been free? and what else is free in a capitalist heaven?
And when was Russia ever Communist?
224

Who uses the word spiv, anyway?,

18/09/2008 15:57:15
240

No idea what you're talking about. I mentioned taxation from my first post in your bit of the thread at 225.
225

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 15:58:10
242

Yes of course it is now that you have made such a monumentous contribution why dont you run along and tell your parents how clever you have been.
226

guenevere,

18/09/2008 15:59:28
238.LOL! ME TOO,what i should of said was,northern rock was a mill stone round the neck of the government,they tried in vain to find a buyer,in the end they had no choice but to nationalize it.
227

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 16:00:42
244

Ah lost the arguement and now resorting to trolling this is where it all goes stupid. Well it was nice while it lasted and at least I got my point across so troll away.
228

guenevere,

18/09/2008 16:04:21
243. For the most of the history of Soviet Russia and the Soviet Union, the Communist Party was virtually indistinguishable from the government.
229

Who uses the word spiv, anyway?,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 16:06:50
247

Don't be an idiot. I'm assuming basic literacy, since you're typing. I am not Ugly George who you were arguing with earlier. I am someone else, who posted already earlier in the thread. Don't you read the names on people's posts?
230

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 16:10:28
248

Russia nor any other country on the planet has ever had a communist government.
Not by any definition of the word communism why dont you look the word up before you throw it about anymore?

249

Is this going anywhere?
231

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 16:12:32
246

Aye it was such a millstone that Alistair Darling still has his mortgage with them.
No conflict of interests there of course.
232

Who uses the word spiv, anyway?,

18/09/2008 16:12:48
250

Yes. You've got weird. You threw some strange comment at me about taxation being number 3 instead of number 1. I fail to see how that relates to my first comment on your posts at 225 in any way. I said as much. You said I was trolling. Perhaps you could explain to me how you'd break down my "three reasons" in 225? I assumed that you'd confused me with someone else you were arguing with.
233

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 16:19:00
252

Taxation is now the 3rd reason presented as the excuse of why the Government allowed Lloyds to take over HBOS its irrelevant that the different reasons came from different posters the relevance is in the discrepency with the excuses.
And no you didnt mention taxation in your post at 225 you mentioned tax payers in a completely different context.
Now either come up with something relevant or b*gger off I really dont care which.
234

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 16:21:38
254

I cant do anything I am skint. Maybe a whip round?
235

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 16:22:39
guenevere

How "communist" would you rate the national bank of England?
236

Who uses the word spiv, anyway?,

18/09/2008 16:23:28
253

It's the general and obvious underlying reason why no government wants to bail out a bank directly - they need to spend our money to do it. I haven't read back, but I imagine the other reasons you were given assumed you'd understand this very basic fact and went into more detail. It was only after you started asking why they didn't do what they did for Northern Rock that anyone twigged you needed it explained to you. They didn't want to do it for Northern Rock - Northern Rock was an utter, unmitigated disaster and so we ended up footing the bill.

I didn't see that as an argument, more an explanation of something that you should have seen as obvious.
237

guenevere,

18/09/2008 16:23:49
250. This from yahoo: Who were the Communist governments in Eastern Europe were established by the
a)Poles during the 1800s.
b)Russians after the Russian Revolution in 1917.
c)Soviet Union at the end of World War II.
d)Soviet Union during the Cold War.
238

Sedov,

Scotland 18/09/2008 16:25:48
#228 - it is not important where I live or under whatever capitalist regime I am forced to live. Nationalism that preserves the status quo - as in the case of the SNP- is no different from unionism under the Tories - EXCEPT that it is harmful to the unity of working people across the UK and their joint ability to break the British state of which the SNP is very much part of, and will remain a part of because of its programme as I described above. In any case a worker should put his class before his country as I do.
239

suchaparcelofrogues,

18/09/2008 16:26:24
258

Do you even know what communism is? have you any idea what the definition of communism is what the ideal is?
If you did then you would know that it has never ever been attempted by any country on the planet the closest you will get to it is within an Israelli kibbutz.
240

guenevere,

18/09/2008 16:27:34
251. And! I have all my savings and current account at the Halifax,and have no intention of changing.
241

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 16:30:57
259

To define yourself in class terms is a betrayal of everything you pretend to represent.
If you believe in an elitist class and you dont see yourself as part of it then you think of yourself and those around you as inferior to others.
That makes you an idiot or a pretentious fool.
No wonder you support the union.
242

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 16:32:18
261

Never say never.
243

SimonHurrll,

England 18/09/2008 16:34:40
Isn't all this fuss about the demise of a name Halifax Building Society and the Bank of Scotland and Lloyds Bank and the Trustee Savings Bank [remember them?] just a newer update on historical banking moves. Survival of the Fittest took place before and it will again. But we should remember that a lot of this current debacle is a result of Poor Management and Lack of Management by the Senior Administrations in these Banks who will almost certainly walk away with a Giant Mega £ Million Handshake and Pension and Severance Package! No dount then they will appear again in another guise.
244

Sedov,

Scotland 18/09/2008 16:36:51
#262 a poor reply - perhaps you too are in fear of revolution.
245

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 16:40:49
266

And what will the Shareholders of HBOS get?
Shares at a pittance of their true value and during a recession too aye so much better.
Take a day off there are more than enough trolls to take over for a while.
246

westview,

More control over our destiny with independence. 18/09/2008 16:41:05
We need to have all the powers that a normal nation has so that we can stay afloat in turbulent times. The connection to Westminster rule is not a lifeline ,it is a chain to a mill stone.
247

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 16:41:55
265

No just a fear you may be serious and not just another troll account.
248

Prudence,

Scotland 18/09/2008 16:47:22
Eric Daniels, CEO Lloyds , when questioned about the Bank of Scotland's position , said Scotland was a country. I'm guessing but I think he is aware of Scotland's banking history ; and that the Bank of Scotland was established before the Bank of England.
249

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 16:49:29
270

And there respective fates is a clear indication of what exactly the union is all about.
250

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 16:58:46
272

Wont that depend on which direction the value of the HBOS shares go?
What are the odds they will rise significantly compared to the odds of a drastic drop? especially with a potential war with Iran looming?
The Northern Rock customers of which I am one by the way were promised more than what you claim so if they get nothing then they will have been betrayed by the UK government which doesnt really come as much of a surprise does it?
251

Wee Babs,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 16:58:49
If anyone to keep a clear head and lead us through this crisis, it is our own First Minister hpefully in this instance backed and supported by all the Scottish party leaders who genuinely care about the fate of so many jobs in the banking sector.
252

Who uses the word spiv, anyway?,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 17:02:28
267

Last I checked, when Lloyds first stepped in, they were valuing HBOS shares at nearly double their market value at the time (300p vs 165p). Lloyds would have to slide a long way for shareholders to get less from than they were fetching from their HBOS shares on the market before Lloyds stopped the rot.

And, if anyone's trolling here, it's you. You've displayed the most grotesque ignorance about the financial markets, about the consequences of the government having to bail a bank out and why they'd be reluctant to do so. You've failed to respond after people have explained things to you to show that you understand why the solution taken was a sensible one. It's as though you're trying to provoke argument for the sake of it.

Moreover, you're derailing the topic. Salmond understands full well why the government having to bail a bank out is a bad thing. His criticisms were directed elsewhere, at the regulation of the markets. By tying your foolishness to a nationalist position, you're making the nationalists here look bad. Is that your intent? Are you actually a Unionist troll?
253

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 17:02:37
274

Problem is his hands are effectively tied within the rules of devolution and with only a minority government.
Its a sorry state of affairs when you live in a country which doesnt have its own basic independence.
254

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 17:04:00
275

And yet I have still managed to expose your bullsh*t for what it really is havent I?
255

BIG EYE,

Paisley 18/09/2008 17:05:03
If anyone wants to know why the Union is finished I suggest they read the blogs on this story.

Quite amazing that the unionist support has been reduced to the point where its only supporters appear to gloat over the demise of Scotland's oldest bank.

Reap what you sow and the destruction of the Bank of Scotland will pale against the destruction of the Labour Party that will ensue the minute the people of Scotland and England get their chance!
256

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 17:05:33
275

By the way both the Daily Mail and the Daily express newspapers condemned the London spivs in exactly the same fashion as the Scotsman reported the First Minister did.
So the sentiments are not his alone.
257

Darien,

Panama 18/09/2008 17:07:31
Parcel of rogues in the HBOS assassination - include Brown & Darling in that parcel.
258

Who uses the word spiv, anyway?,

18/09/2008 17:11:02
275

lol what?

You haven't done anything but ask silly questions. They were answered. You've not even asserted anything much of note. I fail to see how even you could think you'd exposed anything.
259

A Crofter,

Western Isles 18/09/2008 17:11:55
How very helpful of the Hootsmon to provide a link (at the very top of this page) advertising "free spread betting seminars across Scotland".

Note the website's 'Risk Warning':
"Spread Betting, CFDs and Forex are leveraged products and carry a high degree of risk to your capital and it is possible to lose more than your initial investment. Only speculate with money you can afford to lose. These products may not be suitable for all investors, therefore ensure you fully understand the risks involved, and seek independent advice if necessary. CMC Markets UK Plc and CMC Spreadbet Plc are authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority. *Tax laws can change."

The Fat Harrumpher should have read the small print.
260

Who uses the word spiv, anyway?,

18/09/2008 17:16:09
275

Are you lacking in reading comprehension?

Salmond's position is reasonable. I said as much. Yours is not. He's said nothing out of place. You're making nationalists look like fools by claiming to be one. Salmond is plainly no fool, but you're no Salmond.
261

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 17:16:11
257

Then why the list of excuses if the reason was all so simple and obvious to everybody but me?
Why all the defensive and offensive posting instead?

The real reason is none of you know the honest answer.
I have speculated that the answer is political not practical and none of you can prove different so we get a load of excuses and bullsh*t and why?
How many of you work for the government how many of you troll these blogs on a professional basis?
dredging up excuses and anti SNP lies to order?
Quite a few by the looks of it eh?
262

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 17:19:18
283

"Are you lacking in reading comprehension?"

Why are you asking yourself that question?
are you lacking in reading comprehension?
are 3 digits beyond your comprehension?
you silly sad sack.
263

john z,

edinburgh 18/09/2008 17:23:52
I cannot believe the depths that Unionists will go to. Actually gloating over the complete destruction of a successful and profitable bank. And why are unionists doing this? Because like Gordon (Traitor) Brown, they will do anything to preserve the English union. Traitors every last one of them.

It is a disgrace that the Bank of Scotland can be allowed to die at English hands, and we in Scotland have no way to do anything about it.

Hold the referendum on Independence tomorrow Alex, and you'll get a resounding YES. It's time for Scotland to control its banks, time for Scotland to control its destiny, time for Scottish Independence.
264

john z,

edinburgh 18/09/2008 17:27:01
There is something not right about the merger discussions held prior to Tuesday with the government. Is there a Journalist somewhere who will do some digging??

Something is not right about this.
265

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 17:28:19
281

I have exposed a hell of a lot of bullsh*tters for what they are for one.
Pretending they understand finance banking and government motivation.
Aye right.
266

Andrew Allan,

18/09/2008 17:39:14
Alex Salmond is totally right to question the integrity of these people, and maybe the institutions too. Is it not bad enough institutions were able to endanger themselves by lending over a certain percentage in unsecured loans, but then those who thought they smelt easy money did the very same thing lending those institutions money to dig themselves out of a hole, this corrupt money managing system brought down what has been the steadiest economic system this country has seen.
267

Prudence,

18/09/2008 17:57:36
The"spivs" possibly are :-
Philip Falcone - looks for distressed investments.Runs Harbinger Capital,US based hedge fund, manages around $20bn.

Paul Ruddock and Steven Heinz - set up Lansdowne , biggest UK-based hedge funds 1998. Manages $17bn.

Paul Marshall- $15bn hedge fund Marshall Wace set up 1998 by Paul Marshall and Ian Wace.

Crispin Odey - own hedge fund Odey Asset Management set up 1991 ,run by wife Nichola Pease. Predicted the credit crunch. Made profit last year of £55million.

Six individuals handling privately $50 billion plus.
A quick look at "Lehman Bros " directors and "alumni " show connections to XL and Haliburton. Enough said.
268

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 18:01:09
289

I am a customer but not a shareholder so that makes you a compulsive liar doesnt it.
I doubt the psychiatric world even has a definition for dishonest lying little tollies like you.
But please fell free to ignore me its certainly an easier option for you than trying to keep up or to discredit.
269

inkster,

18/09/2008 18:12:32
Royster said " No, a poorly performing high-profile Scottish bank has been saved thanks to the Union "

This bank has not been 'saved' by the union or anybody else.

It's a victim of it's own cupidity and unionist boom and bust housing policies.

Brown must be pleased that his blundering has resulted in a obliteration of the oldest name in Scots Banking.

His red eyes will gleam with a small pleasure as he draws air and cradles his Edinburgh crystal tumbler of Glen Morangie under the flickering candlelight of his dying premiership.







270

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 18/09/2008 18:14:26
The FSA has just announced that they're taking the First Minister's advice and banning the short-selling of bank stocks that helped to cripple BoS. All the Unionists attacking Alex Salmond were said to be crawling back under their rocks with red faces.
271

Western Gael,

18/09/2008 18:35:26
“He added that there was a need to cut taxes and increase public spending to re-inflate the economy and regretted that the Scottish Government's powers would not allow him to do that because it was unable to borrow.” Alex, be more creative. The Americans have been buying Government saving bonds for years with below market rates of return. They also pay “Social Security” taxes on each payday, anticipating it will fund their OAP. Wrong – their Uncle Sam promptly spends it all, adding it to the national debt, and lets future generations fund those pensions out of their own mandatory contributions. Surely SNP can develop similar schemes.
272

Martyk,

18/09/2008 18:54:31
Right. Reality check people. BOS was a minor provincial bank in a third rate financial centre without even its own stock exchange. It got ambitous and over -reached itself and had to be rescued by a London bank whilst dragging down a Yorkshire mortgage bank with it. The fine detail is beside the point. RBS (for now). Standard Life ( for now). That is essentially the Scots financial sector. Oh , and the Dunfermline Building Society. All these Nat fantasies make me laugh. Scotland has been a branch economy of Londons for ages. And always will be.
273

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 19:02:09
300

And as long as we remain within the union that will be true only with Independence can we hope to become rivals.
274

Martyk,

18/09/2008 19:03:26
302; any sane point to make?
275

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 19:03:34
299

Yep a bunch of waffling no nothing tools.
276

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 19:09:02
298

Oh aye lets shed a tear for speculative share holders.
What is share holding if it isnt gambling?
You pays yer money and you take yer chances and who are responsible for the collapse? yet another bunch of gamblers. So we have one shower of gamblers screwing about with another load of gamblers but no mention of the 1000s who are now going to get laid off due to the merger eh?
aye yer some piece of work.
277

Brian Hill,

18/09/2008 19:25:47
Alex Salmond has been majestic since this crisis began. From Newsnight to Holyrood today he has spoken with knowledge and authority, listened to by everyone from Gordon Brewster to the the opposition MSPs, including and especially Labour MSPs.

Salmond has offered leadership and everyone has been happy to follow. He called for the FSA to clamp down on the practice of short selling and tonight they have done just that.

His performance during this crisis will not only enhance his own reputation but that of the entire Government in Holyrood.

278

Sedov,

Scotland 18/09/2008 19:54:27
Well Alex -what are you going to do with the banks come your utopia of Scottish independence- more to the point -what can you do?. Will you turn your windy rhetoric into action and change the financial system around? Nationalisation under workers control? - What about sending in the Atholl highlanders to storm the bank HQ's on the Mound and St Andrews Square -your storm troops await your orders. Seriously your hands are tied to international capitalism like Brown and the rest so shut up your face and stop blethering nonsense.
279

Martyk,

18/09/2008 19:56:05
Well Hoots I have no idea who you think I am but I note you feel unable to challenge anything I actually said. Says a lot of you I think.
280

Martyk,

18/09/2008 19:57:25
I think the current Scots gov setup has been shown to be completely impotent this week. So whats it for?
281

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 18/09/2008 19:59:00
#313 A stepping stone to get away from you before you drag us down into your neo-liberal unregulated-free-market abyss with you.
282

Martyk,

18/09/2008 19:59:05
Just read 300 again Hoots. Cant see a damned thing you could dispute.
283

Martyk,

18/09/2008 20:01:23
314; so what would the Danes or the Irish or the other small national banks of Europe had done about HBOS this week?
284

Darien,

Panama 18/09/2008 20:02:52
#310 So Alex is a fine performer, agreed, and all the MSP's look glum, but that has not saved HBOS. Then again, had Alex been in charge of an independent Scots Government, then I expect he/we would have bought HBOS by now (its worth a couple of years oil revenues). By implication, all you Scots who continue to vote for Unionist/BritNat parties have lost Scotland this bank. This also illustrates the powerlessness of the Scottish Parliament as it currently stands - it does not even have the power or resources to do anything like this. And the fact Brown & Darling did not buy HBOS shows where they stand on the matter - although it also looks as if HBOS's demise has their fingerprints all over it.
285

Darien,

Panama 18/09/2008 20:05:29
#316 the answers in #317
286

Martyk,

18/09/2008 20:20:13
I would happily go down the nat road if they would just stop peddling these economic fantasies. Scotland needs a Scots Stock Exchange and bond market. It needs at least half a dozen largeish financial institutions in different sectors. It needs its airports , power compamnies and loads more in Scots hands and quoted on a Scots stock exchange with a scots gov golden share. Loads of things along these lines. Not a bloody one one of which now exists.
287

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 18/09/2008 20:29:10
320

OH jee sus keerish! will you ever get over yersell?
you cry your eyes out because AS criticises a vile group of chancers but you say nothing about the moronic policies of Brown and Darling.
What an odious pathetic party political little prat.
288

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 20:30:43
317
If you are saying that Alex Salmond would have bought HBOS you must be saying that he would have nationalised it. But how can hae nationalise a company in Scotland when the vast majoritry of its business is conducted elsewhere.
Also you say that it would only cost a cuouplke of years of oil revenues. Even the most optimistic analysis shows that an independent Scotland would need the oil revenues to maintain existing expenditure. So how many billions of cuts in health, education or other services would Alex Salmond have to impose to buy HBOS. Yours is just the latest in a series of deluded postings on this site.
289

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 20:34:16
310 brian Hill
If you think Alex Salmond has been majestic please read my post 134 to get a better perception of events.
290

Ugly George,

edinburgh 18/09/2008 20:37:14
317 Darien
PS
Are you saying that Alex Salmond would have bought RBS as well to protect it - only £20-30 billion there and what about Standard Life. Would he have bought that as well just a few more billion.
291

Jimmy Connely,

Noraway 18/09/2008 20:56:35
Royster..... were u born a numpty
292

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 18/09/2008 20:59:22
#327 It's almost impressive that you're still ploughing on despite the FSA proving that we have a First Minister who's bang on the ball and a Prime Minister and Chancellor who don't have a Scooby Doo.
293

brownlie,

18/09/2008 21:21:21
331 sm753

If the FSA are constitutionally obliged to pay attention to the Chancellor, why did the Chancellor, who should have his finger on the financial pulse, not impose this ban long before now and this situation would have been avoided?
294

chico y,

18/09/2008 21:29:31
Reading a lot of the unionist posters above illustrates to me their pleasure at this disaster for HBOS employees. They really are the lowest of the low. They just don't care and want to run down Scotland not only the SNP.

Unionists posters on this rag seem to want to try to attack Salmond for doing what he can to help.

At least he cares, though I think Goldie, Scott & to a lesser extent Gray do so as well.
295

brownlie,

18/09/2008 21:33:09
334 Col. Blimp

Evening, Colonel, The pubs don't close until midnight round here and I know a wee nite-spot on Rockall that's open all nite. Failing that, hang on to them until after 2010!!
296

brownlie,

18/09/2008 21:42:56
337 sm753

I've already told you that timeous and preventative action by the Chancellor and the FSA would have prevented the problem. That would have been my solution.

Incidentally, do you think it lends more credence to your contentions to constantly refer to the First Minister as "Fat" or something which you consider equally insulting?
297

chico y,

18/09/2008 21:48:36
337

The bit where you said "while the Fat Minister has as much authority over them as my kettle" proves the point.
298

brownlie,

18/09/2008 21:50:45
337 sm753

Incidentally, I've just noticed that you claim not to vote for them - so you're not completely beyond redemption.
299

brownlie,

18/09/2008 21:52:45
340 Col Blimp

Why not mix your notes up with the Labour Manifestos and have a bonfire of the vanities or should that be profanities?

You could get Foulkes to add fuel to the fire.
300

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 22:02:14
337
If he actually COULD do something, I might feel better that somebody who kens whit he's ******* daeing wis in charge.
301

notanactivist,

The Borders 18/09/2008 22:04:18
Oh boo hoo hoo

HBOS exposed itself to too many risky ventures and undermined investor confidence in it as an instititution. It played the a risky game and lost. Lloyds played a cautious game and won. That's business. Had HBOS' investors been a little more active about the fact that the company was overexposing itslef to risk then maybe this whole affair could have been avoided.

Incidently, its interesting to hear Jabba the Hut attack 'spivs and speculators.' If Scotland is to become an independent country surely the SNP intend it to have its own stock exchange. Specualtion is an inevitable feature of life on the markets, in any country, so you need to be able to attract good specualtors to have a successful exchange. But with attitudes like his in the government its unlikely good speculators, let alone any other finance professionals, are going to be keen on heading north.

302

brownlie,

18/09/2008 22:08:31
345 Conan

Perhaps you can help the Colonel? He's got a wad of BOS notes he purloined when he was a young subby during the Crimean War and he's stuck with them now.
303

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 22:15:47
349
He could post them to me brownlie.

I could er...categorise them for him...
304

Martyk,

18/09/2008 22:18:46
Hmm. A scots stock exchange today would have 27 companies on it. London 3,000.
305

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 22:22:35
346
Aye weel. Good speculators are hard to find.

Perhaps the ones that used to work for the Lehman Bros could be enticed to Scotland.

A free pardon? Their lives? What do you suggest nonactivist?
306

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 22:24:24
351
Not for much longer, apparently.
307

brownlie,

18/09/2008 22:26:32
347 sm

So the abuse is like a school-boy name-calling thing - seems very appropriate, somehow!!
308

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 22:41:10
348
sm753

You are Spartacus?

Stop hanging around the Appian Way and get a job.

It's not as if you would be nailed for Tacks eh?
309

John H,

edinburgh 18/09/2008 22:41:29
So Alex is furious about the spiv's and speculators who are deemed to have caused this financial meltdown. Bet it was not the case when he sat in the Ivory Tower on the Mound when he was working out ways to increase the profits of the bank. Spiv and a speculator might be nearer to home than he would like to admit
310

Matt there,

somewhere 18/09/2008 22:48:02
And who, exactly, would want to stop Scotland having its own bank, own banknotes and on economy?

A bunch of spivs? That's no way to describe Gordon Brown and his ministers! Oh. On the other hand...
311

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 22:54:20
358
They are fake...? ...there goes my pension.

What about the chewing gum cards of the American Civil War? The Cavalryman skewered on spikes entitled "A painful death".

A Unionist Cavalryman.
312

Matt there,

somewhere 18/09/2008 22:55:15
14, you missed the point.

This is like the US Army Air Force General who ordered the total destruction of a Vietnam village. He said: "In order to save the village, it was necessary to destroy it."

And that is what Gordon Brown did.

Oops, there were rumours of a takeover (leaked by someone. But whom?)

Oops, HBOS is in trouble as a result of the leaks.

Oops in the nick of time it was 'saved' by a bank owned by a chum of the Prime Minister.

Thank goodness the village, I mean bank, was destroyed. I mean saved! Hurrah.
313

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 23:44:15
367
Cyber-limbo...

Is that where the righteous Scottish Labour supporters are?
314

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 23:55:49
370
Aye. Vibrating stuff.
315

notanactivist,

The Borders 19/09/2008 15:09:13
356
Sneer if you will but speculation happens and if Scotland is to have its own stock market it will need good speculators. That is of course unless the SNP decides its a hardline socialist party and wants to nationalise Scottish business, something I wouldn't rule out.

348 Jabba the Nat - I like it.
316

Bemused and above it all,

19/09/2008 16:35:08
Excellent stuff from Salmond, all we need now is a 'Ah'm gonnae kick e's BAAAAAAwwwwwwwwwwzzzzzzzz man!'
Nedtastic!

 

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