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Trump golf resort 'will ruin dunes unique in Britain'



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Published Date: 22 May 2008
By Frank Urquhart
DONALD Trump's proposals to build a £1 billion golf resort in Aberdeenshire will, in effect, destroy a stretch of sand dunes that is "unparalleled" in Britain, the inquiry into his controversial development will be told next month.
Statements have been lodged with the inquiry offices by expert witnesses being called by Scotland's leading conservation agency.

It is claimed the reasons for designating the Menie estate landscape as a protected site of special scientific interes
t will be fatally compromised if part of the main championship course is built within the area's "remarkable" mobile sand dune system.

And it has also been revealed that the north Menie part of Foveran Links site of special scientific interest, where the planned course would be sited, has recently been proposed as a Great Britain Geological Conservation Review site in recognition of its scientific importance nationally.

In his statement, Dr Jim Hansom, an expert on coastal erosion at Glasgow University, says: "The area represents an exceptional site for coastal dune geomorphology since there exists a remarkable assemblage of wind-blown landforms, some of which are natural and of an extent that is unparalleled in Great Britain.

"The works required to construct the golf development will remove the vital dynamic geomorphological processes."





The full article contains 214 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 May 2008 10:25 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Donald Trump
 
1

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 22/05/2008 07:11:06
Hmmm...a conundrum...sand, birds...or part of the future of the NE Economy.

Hmmm...
2

Nomada,

22/05/2008 07:48:51
Or, rather more to the point #1, an ordered planning system governed by law, policy and procedure instead of what so many folk in your part of the country seem to think is democracy but would actually be anarchy and mob rule. Menie is part of the rest of Scotland, not an independent People's Republic of the NE.
3

Beth Boyle,

NY 22/05/2008 08:21:55
Trump is a modern day Viking! Drive him from your shores!
4

Rasco,

22/05/2008 10:01:19
Why don't all the doom and gloom people have a journey all along the East Coast of Scotland and see the links courses,I have played on a lot of them and nowhere have I see any damage to sand dunes,all are very well maintained with plenty off wild life most have the broom and whin bushes where many birds nest,I remember on one course at the 6th tee an oyster catcher had a nest with 3 eggs,all 3 hatched the young were seen running about the grass so Mr Ford we are not all spoiling the natural beauty of our costal lands and keeping these estates for the folks who like to shoot the geese.
5

Nomada,

22/05/2008 10:23:54
Catch up, Rasco #4. The whole point about the SSSI on the dunes at Menie is that there are *no* 'broom and whin bushes' so that the whole system is mobile. The SSSI is not primarily about wildlife (although there are other statutory and policy wildlife considerations), but about geomorphology.
6

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 22/05/2008 12:10:04
Nomada

How will the Geomorphology of Menie Links benefit mankind?

How will the refusal of the Trump application benefit the Scottish economy?

Should there be any development on an SSSI?

Do you think it's offensive to belittle the views of local people?
7

Nomada,

22/05/2008 12:45:34
Andrew #6.
Q - How will the Geomorphology of Menie Links benefit mankind?
A - If I had more space I could give you an argument for that, but it is irrelevant. All that matters to me is whether this development follows law and policy on SSSIs.

Q - How will the refusal of the Trump application benefit the Scottish economy?
A - I don't know and I don't care. What I do care about is that this is decided in accordance with law and policy, whichever way it goes.

Q - Should there be any development on an SSSI?
A - SSSI status does not totally preclude development, but any development must be assessed to comply with law and policy (maybe you are beginning to see a theme here). There is considerable doubt that it does so comply, hence the PLI.

Q - Do you think it's offensive to belittle the views of local people?
A - I think the views of local people (and non-locals are only as valid as they are informed. The views you and many other 'locals' (I assume you are local to Menie, but 'Aberdeenshire' is a very big place) have aired in the Trumptown threads are uninformed, devoid of any evidence of understanding of the controlling issues, and therefore not worth a hill of beans. I hope that is clear enough for you.
8

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 22/05/2008 17:55:39
Nomada

Does that mean..

1. Don't know
2. Don't know and don't care
3. Don't really know (and I've no examples incl. Clashindarroch)
4. No I don't think it's offensive, and I'll take this opportunity for further belittlement.

Some of these issues will come up at the PLI and you've not got a clue. You are an apology for REAL objectors.

I rest my case.


9

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 22/05/2008 19:50:25
Nomada, my answers to your questions are:

DON'T CARE
DON'T CARE
DON'T CARE
DON'T CARE

Your views are irrelevant.
10

Beth Boyle,

New York, Trumped State 22/05/2008 20:31:33
I am an American from New York State and I think I am qualified to tell you pro-Trumpers you are dead wrong. This is the wrong place for a development and the wrong man for the job. Donald Trump is spoiled brat who loves to throw his weight around and has an abysmal record when it comes the environment. On top of that he does not play well with others. If you think anyone but Trump will gain from this you are daft! Once you let someone like this in how are you ever going to say no to anyone else who wants to rape the land? Send this modern day Viking back to his lair!
11

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 22/05/2008 23:15:08
What's this place called great britain???? The course will be built in SCOTLAND and anyone elses view does not matter. Now go AWAY!!!! Or Foxtrot Oscar, which ever one you chose.
12

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 23/05/2008 01:35:27
Beth Boyle

Have you been to Menie?

I've been to NY, NY and you're in no position to lecture on the misgivings of capitalism. Took a closer look at your home state before making ill-judged comments on things where you only know half the story.

And by the way, I'm NOT a "pro-Trumper" as you put it. I'm interested in the diversification of my local economy with public AND private investment. And anyway, Trump is a small fish in our neck of the woods. We already have Haliburton, Baker Oil, etc..., so it's not such a big deal. We've invited them to "rape" the sea, so if we want to invite Trump to "rape" our land then we will.

One last point. How's the Golf course at Westchester doing? I've heard it's a bit of a success story.
13

Eric_the_Red2,

Aberdeen 23/05/2008 02:06:18
Firstly, Nomada has made a couple of valid points. A lot of people that live in the Aberdeenshire area have been subjected to pro Trump spin from the papers since the planning application began. This includes ludicrous statistics (93% of ppl are in favour of the development apparently!) articles from the EE especially that are on occasion just a lengthy quote from Trump, and incessant drumming about just how fabulously wealthy everyone will become because of an elitist golf course and mini housing development on the menie estate. So yes a lot of people that live locally have strong opinions on the issue without any decent sources of information.

Secondly, there is the issue of puplic planning policiy and the law. A locally based developer would not have had a hope of getting the kind of treatment over this, or getting permission to build over 1000 homes in the area, because it directly contravenes the economic plan for the diversification of the NE economy, which is also supposed to harmonise with the environment. The kinds of jobs created and the fact that profits will not stay or be reinvested in scotlnd is not all that great an idea either. Trump has most certainly been afforded special treatment, and in a country where all should be equal under the law, this has not been the case.

I have also been to NY 'andrew BOD', and feel free to comment on issues there (including the campaign for justice in El Barrio), and on the issues where I live: Aberdeenshire. It is a very close minded attitude to say that just because someone doesn't live in an area they have no right to voice an opinion. Sometimes distance from a situation can give a clarity that is lost when someone is closer to the action.

In the end though, after countless arguments and debates on this topic with the people around me and through unrelated organisations, not one person has been able to come up with a strong, factual and reasonable argument of why one part of one of the courses shouldn'
14

Eric_the_Red2,

23/05/2008 02:06:44
shouldn't be moved a little bit to leave the SSSI alone. In fact, almost everyone I speak to changes their mind about the whole thing, and I have begun to sense a shift in perception over this. Trump will not have everything his own way come the enquiry.
15

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 23/05/2008 02:40:02
Eric

Firstly, the majority of us are thick, don't find out about local issues and rely on the Evening Express for our wisdom. (Is that a valid Nomada point or would you like to dress it up in something it's not again. His take on this particular issue is condescending to say the least.)

Secondly, Trump isn't afforded special treatment but a development which could have a huge economic impact on Scotland and the NE should be afforded more consideration than was given by Aberdeenshire council. (By the way, the economic plan for diversification involves growing Tourism by 50% in a really short space of time. Building hotels alone won't do it. Any other plans?)

Thirdly, Beth is certainly free to speak, but she is clouding the issue with her hatred of Trump the man, and that needs to be pointed out.

And finally, part of one of the courses has already been subject to a proposal to move, thus lessening the impact on the SSSI. Using the RSPB proposal, the course would never be considered as Championship material, and there would be no point in the development. Maybe that's the plan.
16

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 23/05/2008 02:44:03
Sorry Eric

Your defence of Nomada is strange. His answer to one of my questions....

Q - How will the refusal of the Trump application benefit the Scottish economy?
A - I don't know and I don't care. What I do care about is that this is decided in accordance with law and policy, whichever way it goes.

Again: I don't know and I don't care.

Indefensible.

17

Jock Wilson,

23/05/2008 11:09:00
14,

"In fact, almost everyone I speak to changes their mind about the whole thing, and I have begun to sense a shift in perception over this."


You are clearly a very persuasive fellow, Eric, or somewhat gullible. I have read your arguments and have not changed my mind. One of your few failures, no doubt.
18

celtic4,

USA 23/05/2008 23:47:02
It is a possiblilty that Beth doesn't personally know Donald Trump (the man), and has just been overcome by bad press on him. At any rate, it IS your country and if you wish to invite Mr. Trump there, it IS your business. I try not to badmouth people I don't know. If it is going to be a sucessful venture then Great! If not, I am sure you will learn from it. That's about all I have to say on this matter.
19

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 23/05/2008 23:51:05
Played golf at Callander GC last Friday and there was plenty wildlife around including a roe deer that crossed our path around mid-day - so give golf a chance!
20

Eric_the_Red2,

24/05/2008 11:01:03
Well, in response to 15:

1) While some people do have an in depth knowledge about the details of the proposal, i also think there is a great many in the area whose information and understanding of the issues surrounding the planning application comes from the local press. I feel the local press have been very biased in favour of the proposal and have generated a feeling that the development will in one way or another make everyone a bit richer, and in trying to block the proposal in its current form some people are simply against the development of the NE economy. The headlines such as 'traitors' in relation to the councillors voting against the proposal in its current form, and the kind of anger generated, did have an element of 'mob rule' to it. This aspect of Nomada's argument I agreed with. As for the 'don't care' opinion on local people's views, your right, it's indefensible.

2) All equal under the law: What I mean from this is that the application it its current form has a few problems with it that some people aren't happy with, mainly the extent of the housing and the destruction of the SSSI. When the council voted on the application, this was part of the negotiation in the planning process. What is then expected to happen is that the applicant will resubmit with modiications. Instead, a furor was created, the Scottish gvt stepped in, and essentially Trump was not happy to negotiate within the normal planning process any further. Threats to walk away highlighted this. This is not the treatment a locally based developer would have got, even if they had put forward exactly the same application.

3) If I had the space I'd like to go more into this, but essentially I'm not yet convinced that this development will be as economically benificial as is made out. I'm waiting for the public enquiry to hear what Trump's side have to say, but right now: on site staff I think are supposed to be around 400. Most of these jobs will be minimum wage. If the courses a
21

Eric_the_Red2,

24/05/2008 11:13:22
If the courses and hotel are owned by Trump the profits will leave our shores. Also, this is an elitist course: the kinds of people that would come to visit are not going to be interested in shopping in Aberdeen or creating any kinf of 'multiplier effect.'

Also, I think that the SSSI thing comes down to values. I beilieve that the course could be moved and still be a championship level course, despite arguments to the contrary by Trump. I also think that the plan as it is will destroy the mobile sand dune system. The issue has been framed as an economic one that overrides the environmental aspect. Environmentalists frame it as an environmental issue with a dubious economic argument(admittedly i feel their view has more resonance). However, I think compromise is possible, but this will only happen if people have the value set in which they want this to happen. Trump doesn't care at all about this SSSI, and hence it is in his interest to maintain that only if his plans go ahead virtually unmodified will his course be top level: if he maintained any other line on this then he would be forced to concede.

Lastly, I spoke to a planning student recently about this. He was critical of Ford who had spoken to their class about the proposal because they didn't feel he had maintained professionalism in the manner he spoke about the application to their class. However in terms of planning he said his class and his lecturers were unanimous: the application itself was terrible. If any of them had been on the council, they would have had to have voted to block it until it was modified. This is all that needed to have happened last november, and this whole messy situation could have been avoided.
22

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 24/05/2008 20:33:08
Eric

I welcome your fairer comments and I don't think we are too far away from each other on this. There is a tendency for arguments to become polarised with objectors just talking about the environment and business people just talking about money.

My position is that it would be better if the development was a bit smaller and the course pulled back a bit from the SSSI. Pulling back too much would lose the natural beauty that Trump is trying to showcase.

However, I would rather run with the development as it is than to not have one at all. It's a shame that Trump has issued veiled threats about pulling out, but I think that's down to inadequate planning laws, some of which are localised. He knows that to start all over again would involve a huge amount more time and money. (How come Glasgow Council can fastrack large hotel developments and Aberdeenshire Council cannot?) This is just frustration at not being able to do something relatively quickly that can be done in other parts of Scotland, let alone other parts of the world what he's done all over the world.

On the econonmic bit, I believe that tourism in this part of Scotland is relatively untapped. The figures speak for themselves. There is a great degree of natural beauty, but not a great deal of relevant infrastructure to market tourism aggressively. Three top class golf resorts/developments, the AWPR, dualling the remainder of the Ellon road, the airport runway extension, much more hotel space, and a growth in properties for self catering will change all of that. Trump's development is a large piece of that jigsaw, and if, as figures suggest, there will be 4000 - 5000 holidaymakers/residents staying there at any one time, that will inject a huge amount of money into the NE and Scottish economy. Those people will not want to stay put. They will travel to Royal Deeside, do The Whisky Trail, the Castle Trail, eat in our restaurants and shop in our retail centres.

We must diversify quick
23

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 24/05/2008 20:33:45
We must diversify quickly and not wait for others to do it for us. Trump fits into a bigger plan which was identified before he even arrived on our shores. I also suspect that if we reject this, 'others' will be put off by this sorry mess. If I had the money I know I wouldn't want to invest here.
24

Eric_the_Red2,

Aberdeen 24/05/2008 23:05:22
Yes, well one thing I've noticed on these forums is that polarisation on issues is almost immediate, and reasoned, rational discussion rare, so it's good to have a qualified debate on the proposal.
As things stand, I think that right now there is a wating game going on between two rough coalitions, RSPB, SWI, some members of the public and the four councillors appearing at the enquiry on one side, with Trump, the business community, some members of the public and the councillors who support the proposal on the other side. As I mentioned above, both sides are trying to frame the issue their way, so how things turn out is still unclear.

At the enquiry, there should be a full airing of the arguments and I am especially looking forward to three things: 1) Martin Ford cross examining Trump in person at the enquiry. 2) The debate over trump's economic impact report, and 3) the debate over trump's environmental impact report. I think out of these arguments some kind of resolution will be reached.

I my opinion, Trump really, really wants this. However, I don't know whether he'll be willing to settle for a compromise, or 'second best' as he puts it. Therefore it's not impossible that a resolution between economic development and environmental protection will be reached, but whether this will go down well with Trump I have no idea.

Not long till the fun starts though!
25

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 24/05/2008 23:47:55
Eric

No. not long now.

I think your points two and three will be interesting and depending on the debate will be determining factors on Swinney's decision.

I think Ford questioning Trump will again polarise the debate and could hamper any resolution. I also think there will be other interesting things which could have a bearing on the outcome:
- The 'unofficial' council vote in favour of the development
- The local business case which has not really been heard on an official forum
- Any precedents for councils approving development on other SSSIs
- Any similar environmentally-friendly golf resorts around the globe that have made a positive impact.

Trump will have smart cookies working for him that will have done their homework. Rightly or wrongly, they will have left no stone unturned in their quest for evidence in support of the development.

We'll also see if public support for the development will materialise during the PLI. I know you have made the point about the local press trying to drum up support for the development, but sometimes letters to the editor are the only way in which someone can get their point across. Writing to MPs, MSPs and councillors doesn't always have the same impact. To be fair to the P&J, they have regularly published letters for AND against the development.

Interesting times ahead.
26

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 25/05/2008 18:17:21
What a lot of nonsense - I just played a round yesterday at the Buddon course at Carnoustie and saw plenty of wildlife that seemed happy to co-exist alongside a few golfers who quietly pass by every now and again. The whole thing needs to be put into proper perspective and its the number of houses and related infrastructure required in the plan that will do the damage not the course itself. Until John Swinney makes his mind up on this aspect lets not get sidetracked by the SSSI arguments as they don't stand up to scrutiny in my opinion.
27

Ex-Blootooner,

Halifax 26/05/2008 20:54:31
If you don't think wildlife can co-exist on a golf course,try Cruden Bay or Peterhead just up the coast.
28

Forward,

Menie 30/05/2008 13:14:02
It is interesting to see a balanced discussion on here at last. I have been involved in this argument (not purely here) since it began and I am pleased to see Eric the red state that he sees a change in general opinion away from a simple 'go for it' attitude as that is also what I have been seeing. As the facts sneak out past the restrictive attitudes of the local Aberdeenshire papers (P&J and EE), people are learning of what is actually planned here. The four tower blocks of flats for instance, carefully described as holiday homes. I am a member of the group 'Sustanable Aberdeenshire' and our position is clear and always has been. we are not against all development at any cost as we have been portrayed, we recognise, understand and accept the need for careful, long term sustainable development. This application is not sustainable and is not carefulor eben long term. Negotiation has always been available to the Trump Organisation and they have ignored it and gone with threats of pulling out instead. Now I am afraid we need to call their bluff. Reject it.
29

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 31/05/2008 23:20:46
30 Forward

Unlike Eric, it's a shame that you have not contributed to a balanced discussion and continue to see things only from one side.

Eric's point about seeing general opinion change is unsubstantiated and purely anecdotal. On the contrary, most of the one-sided arguments from those that oppose the development - like Nomada - have led to a hardening of opinion from those that support it.

Eric's opinions are much more open and invite discussion. I wish the same could be said about others.

SUPPORT IT.



 

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