Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Scottish schools stuck 'in spiral of decline'

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 11 November 2009
SCOTTISH education is on a downward spiral and must embrace radical new ideas to avoid falling further behind England, a senior academic has warned.
Eric Wilkinson, professor of education at the University of Glasgow, accused the SNP government of ignoring fresh thinking and said Scotland's education system was stuck in a "mudpool".

Prof Wilkinson spoke out after The Scotsman revealed that the SNP-led East Lothian Council had floated the idea of educational trusts.

Trust schools are where a group of schools in a defined community form a trust and take greater control of school budgets to target spending towards specific local needs.

The proposal is far more modest than the educational trusts pushed through by Labour in England. Despite this, Labour in Scotland has dismissed the East Lothian plan as out of step with the public.

Meanwhile, the SNP government has failed to outline a policy on trust schools.

Prof Wilkinson said it was exactly this lack of ambition to debate structural change that was damaging Scotland's education system.

He told The Scotsman: "In England, they are pushing ahead with huge innovations and having some success – particularly in London.

"In Scotland, we are still stuck in a mudpool – and undoubtedly, Scotland will start to slip behind unless it embraces new ideas."

The academic added: "Scottish education is on a downward spiral and it is vital for our future that we remedy that."

Prof Wilkinson said he feared the SNP administration was taking too narrow a view of education

"Post-devolution, education has become more parochial and I feel the SNP is now looking more at the immediate needs of the system rather than the wider picture," he said.

However, he indicated that some innovations were working and highlighted his own experience with Kirkcudbright Academy in Dumfries and Galloway.

"It is now one of the best state schools in Scotland, because they have innovated," he said.

"They have organised the school differently – three years of junior school and three years of senior school, rather than the traditional four plus two model. They have given the children extra support and put them all into Standard Grade at the end of S3 – then everyone is involved in both academic and life skills courses together in senior school.

"The results have been phenomenal. They are getting pupils into Oxbridge and others are getting good jobs locally.

"Fiona Hyslop has been to see the school but done nothing more – the vision they have shown there has been ignored."

Prof Wilkinson's comments echo the comments of Lindsay Paterson, one of Scotland's foremost educational experts, in July.

The professor of educational policy at Edinburgh University said that the idea of Scotland having the best education system was "one of the great education myths" – and that England was clearly pressing ahead because it had been prepared to embrace change.

Prof Paterson said England had done much to fund a variety of types of school, such as specialist schools, of which there are now more than 3,000, and more recently, foundation and trust schools.

He added: "England's education system may still have its problems.

"But the essential point is that attainment in England has improved much more than in the other three nations (Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland]."

The East Lothian Council proposal for educational trusts has led to criticism that both the SNP and Labour in Scotland are unwilling to innovate in the interests of school pupils.

Ross Martin, a former Labour councillor and strategist, is the only one in his party to break ranks so far. He wrote in The Scotsman yesterday: "We must recognise that our system needs change."

In what was a clear dig at his own party's Holyrood leader. Iain Gray, he said: "This brave step forward to start a root and branch debate about the nature of service design and delivery is therefore to be welcomed and not derided by the dinosaurs who simply seek to protect the status quo. Real reform demands real debate of real ideas. Can we leave the party politics at the door and have a real debate about our future and the future of our schools?"

A Scottish Government spokesman said: "These proposals for 'trust' arrangements in schools, which are at an early and relatively un-detailed stage, are not for 'trust schools' as they currently exist elsewhere in the UK.

"We understand that East Lothian Council is exploring the possibility of extending the arrangements that many Scottish councils – including, for example, Glasgow City Council – already operate for devolving management to headteachers and individual or clusters of schools."

He said the Scottish Government supported greater control for heads. But added: "However, this does not mean the adoption of the arrangements that exist for trust schools in England."



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 November 2009 12:34 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Teaching
 
1

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/11/2009 00:17:00

2009 MMIX,

"More than half of Scottish local authorities saw an improvement in their Higher results this year, largely thanks to better performance by girls."

Yes! Political games before an election.


2

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/11/2009 00:20:30

2009 MMIX

"Official statistics, published yesterday, show 18 of Scotland’s 32 councils recorded rising annual exam pass rates, while 11 councils saw a drop in performance."

Funny how one dams our education system before an election.

3

r1niceboy,

Nebraska, via Polwarth 11/11/2009 00:21:51
As long as you have standardised educational systems, and are scared to challenge students to use their head as anything other than a hatrack, what do you expect.

150 years ago, 12 year olds were given Aristotle to read. Now we think that Animal Farm, the most allegorical book ever written, is too difficult for them.
4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/11/2009 00:50:21

2009 MMIX

"The percentage of pupils achieving at least five Standard Grades at general level or above has also risen – from 76% to 77%. Yesterday’s figures also highlighted the stark impact of deprivation on exam success.
As previous studies have shown, council areas that serve some of the most deprived parts of Scotland, including Glasgow, Dundee, North Ayrshire and West Dunbartonshire, are largely outperformed by those in the wealthiest areas.
Once again, the best-performing local authority was East Renfrewshire, where 49% of pupils passed three or more Highers"

Not what I would call a "mudpool"!


5

The Answer,

Glasgow 11/11/2009 01:06:50
scotland 8.4% of the UK population

yet contributes only

6.7% of new fulltime UK undergraduates 2009

or another view on the same stats

679 new undergraduates enter university for each English Parliamentary Constituency seat


491 new udergraduates enter university for each scots Parliamentary Constituency seat


source ucas 21-10-2009

tinyurl.com/ygo8wy6
6

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 11/11/2009 01:57:16
Those who can do teach. Those who can't teach get enormous salaried posts claiming that THEY can teach teachers. My parents generation were in education full time: my father a Director of Education (before they were pompous "CEOS" like the well named Peter Peacock); my mother a teacher of mathematics. My sister teaches modern languages.

I work in design engineering and I think moral and commitment in the scottish state sector is awe inspiring. They will make the changes - and for the better !

We DON'T want to hear from "Academics" who've never set foot in a classroom!
7

jafra loo,

11/11/2009 02:07:59
How can that title be allowed?

Treason

Yok Finney? you got a job for a part-time development worker waitress?
8

Media for one,

11/11/2009 05:52:59
I think there are serious problems, it is no secret that discipline needs to be reinstated at schools, pride needs to be instilled and a sense of respect learned.
Scottish schools need help!
9

Aristotle's Lantern,

Dubai 11/11/2009 06:23:42
Re: The Answer at #5

You keep pasting this piece of information, perhaps it's quality rather than quantity that is important. For example:

With just 0.1 per cent of the world’s population, Scotland produces 1 per cent of the world’s published research.

http://tinyurl.com/ygkz9jy
10

Anne,

Eaglesham 11/11/2009 06:36:17
It's "radical ideas" over the past thirty years that have contributed to this decline.
11

fife runner,

11/11/2009 06:45:08
yet more changes. real issue is every time a new party gets elected it changes the system and so the roundabout goes on. no wonder schools or teachers spend more time on paperwork then before. to the detriment of education. Curriculum for excellence just been introduced now more changes
12

fife runner,

11/11/2009 06:47:08
#6 totally agree. although I am not a teacher it is like a lot of things , people in ivory towers producing theories.
13

Skip McClendon,

11/11/2009 06:56:40
Three days in a row the Scotsman has run this three versions of this same old tosh from David Lee...is this paper becoming his personal political pamphlet? I hope they are not paying him for writing this nonsense.
14

Selgovae,

11/11/2009 07:42:43
#5

I take it you studied politics and not statistics.

"yet contributes only 6.7% of new fulltime UK undergraduates"

Meaningless unless we know what percentage of undergraduates came from outside the UK, and also Scotland's proportion of the UK 18-year old population.

"491 new udergraduates enter university for each scots Parliamentary Constituency seat"

Meaningless unless we know the relative populations of English and Scottish constituencies.

Please try harder.
15

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

11/11/2009 08:03:07
Has this alleged “spiral of decline” only occurred during the last two years and six months of the SNP administration?
16

Letters From Muscat,

edinburgh 11/11/2009 08:15:20
At the risk of sounding repetative, too much paper work instigated by academics, who do not have to put their ideas to the test every day. Who think up glorified ideas regarding ' education' and then wonder why results are not forthcoming..... I've been in too many classrooms where teacher and pupil are drowning in paperwork. So yes, stop all the educational ' jargon' and let teachers get on with the job they are doing
17

Faultserver,

SunnyG 11/11/2009 08:18:28
A Curriculum for Excellence will solve eveything. There have been so many new initiatives since Devolution that schools have ground to a halt.

An important aspect of English Trust schools is that they start by throwing out the worst of the troublemakers. Pupils not Teachers.
18

Linda,

Edinburgh 11/11/2009 08:34:00
When will we ever see a Scottish newspaper which is supportive (but not slavishly so) of the SNP and independence?

Labour complain about media bias but they have numerous cheerleaders in the press not to mention all the Tories in Murdoch press, Mail , Express, telegraph etc whereas the SNP can only count on no newspaper and a handful of journalists.
19

Ben Thehoose,

11/11/2009 08:37:17
Any exam success is illusory as it follow from course dumbing down. Scottish education is a disaster. No wonder parents who can put their kids into private schools that use English exams.
20

Warden Resurrected,

11/11/2009 08:39:11
Dùn Èideann Bully Wee
15-No one is saying the decline is because of the SNP, what is being said is this Scottish Government aren’t helping. My personal view on education is when you get pupils who want to learn you get the best results out of them. Parents who tell their children they didn’t do well when they were at school, when the children are younger, are often programming them to do no better than their parents. I’ve got two links for you to follow here, one showing TIMSS results for Scotland and how other countries do in comparison (note the poorer results from Norway), and the other showing an interesting insight into the vital years in childrens development.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2009/10/13150724/1
http://www.thelearningweb.net/chapter07/page227.html
21

P Rayner.,

UK 11/11/2009 08:42:30
15. Yes it has. What hasn't declined is the consumption of pork pies by the obese one.
22

Alan B,

11/11/2009 08:42:30
Problem with taking anything this paper says seriously is it slavish devotution to spinning any anti snp story.

Where was the critism of scottish education during the past decade. If scottish education has failed is it due to the failure of the education reforms in the 80s under the tories. Or the failure of labour with the McCrone recommendations.

How are we really comparing scottish education to englands? They have 2 different sets of exams and the english system is constantly slagged off down south for the grade inflation.

It is difficult to know if we have had grade inflation in scotland as most discussion and reporting of this is on the english system.

The other problem with comparing the systems is the outputs. Englands system tends to be narrow ie 3 A levels and Scotand you do a single yr higher and an extra yr during your degree.

As such if you measure say maths in scotland maths and english (do not know if this has changed from my day at school) taken if you were doing highers as part of your 5 highers. In england where they do 3 Alevels meant they can easily do 3 sciences and hence scotland has/had an education system set up for more people do develop in maths.
23

Spannerstherevengein3D,

11/11/2009 08:43:27
Yet more mainstream propaganda put out in order to soften us up to the idea of private Education for all.
Come on folks this same pattern has been used for decades on all of our once proud public services in order to sell them off to the private sector.
DONT FALL FOR IT YET AGAIN.
24

Spannerstherevengein3D,

11/11/2009 08:47:09
Government figures statistics and so called facts are produced in order to support government rhetoric dogma and policy they are not produced or published to show reality nor anything resembling a trend opposite to the Governments political position if it did they simply wouldnt publish them or they would spin them.

Come on folks we all know this so dont react to these stories like they have any real meaning.
25

Warden Resurrected,

11/11/2009 08:47:46
Linda
18- Independence isn’t the magic bullet here in education unless you can show otherwise.
26

Iain Mac,

11/11/2009 08:48:02
Wilkinson and the Hootsmon are playing games with figures. So England has improved but from what level did it start?

No mention is made of the Curriculum for Excellence which from what i see, is based on teaching life skills and not memorising facts and it was started by Labour/Lib Dems and is now continued by the SNP.

Aye, politics are being played here.

20 years ago, every election was preceeded by headlines warning of Tartan Terrorism! Now, it's "SNP accused..."
27

Iain Mac,

11/11/2009 08:49:39
Nowhere does Wilkinson mention the new curriculum. Maybe HE is not up to the job? After all, what has HE being doing all those years?
28

Alan B,

11/11/2009 08:50:01
Did a quick google

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7115692.stm

"UK secondary school students have slipped down an international league table of reading and maths standards.
Based on test results in 2006, the UK has lost the top 10 positions it held for both subjects seven years ago."

So while the international league table does not differentiate between scotland and english education system which is a problem in itself, the idea that the english system is doing well and the scottish one not tends not to be supported by the link above and its report.
29

Alan B,

11/11/2009 08:51:29
2007

"British teenagers have plummeted down an international education league table, sparking fresh fears that schoolchildren are failing to master the basics.

In reading, 15-year-olds in the UK dropped from seventh in 2000 to 17th, behind countries including Estonia and Liechtenstein. In maths, pupils fell from eighth to 24th - placing them below the international average.

In science, secondary school students in the UK dropped from 4th to 14th.

The findings, in a report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), will be seen as a blow to the Government, which hailed the 2000 results as a triumphant vindication of its education policies.

It comes just a week after the UK sank in another international league table comparing the reading standards of primary school children. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1571444/Britain-nosedives-in-education-league-tables.html
30

Alan B,

11/11/2009 08:55:59
#Warden Resurrected

" Independence isn’t the magic bullet here in education unless you can show otherwise. "

But it is also true that the union was detrimental to scottish education, in that pre devolution there was next to no democratic accountability for it.

Consider the 1980s education reforms that swept away the OGrade system. They were introduced by a government with no electral mandate in scotland who were advocating and voted in on the basis of supporting a completely different education system down south.

As we can see from the scotmans slagging of of scottish education they are not just playing political games but stuck wiht this preoccupation of england and not how scotland fairs in european coomparisons.

We have had a history circulumn that is not for history and to make it interesting but the sanitise it for political purposes.
31

Ipatia,

Edinburgh 11/11/2009 08:57:53
I totally agree with comment #3. The Scottish 1496 Education Act introduced compulsory education for the eldest sons of nobles.The 1696 Education Act provided a school and a schoolmaster in EVERY parish in Scotland. This was the second nationwide system of school education anywhere in the world since ancient Sparta. The Education (Scotland) Act of 1872 made education compulsory as well as universal. So what's this nation about? Frittering away such a unique heritage? So called national "excellence" starts from an educated base: not only specialization, which can come later, but a terrific general culture. Correct language, literature, memory skills (poetry by heart?), arithmetic, science, geography and history are the basics. Latin gives logic and structures the brain. Grants to promising kids.Enough of macramé lessons and more grammar and multiplication tables. school is not a playroom, it should be serious, like life will be later on.
32

jane shore,

london 11/11/2009 08:58:07

AlanB #28... I commented on the latest TIMSS results, published as recently as Dec.2008., two days ago.

These are impartial annual international tests in Maths & Science. Very important subjects.

425.000 children from 48 countries tested. English childrens' results were very good. and in all categories their results were better than the Scots. children.
33

Alan B,

11/11/2009 08:58:49
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/sep/09/schooltables.oecd

"It would appear that the £40m being currently spent on Sats tests is a complete farce.

They are not only failing to improve education in England, but may be driving down standards as schools reduce their curriculums and teach to the tests.

In Melbourne, Australia, 84% of pupils stay at school until the end of secondary education, compared with only 41% in England. This may be because Melbourne offers a more meaningful, relevant and flexible curriculum that caters for individual career paths. The English model seems plagued by anomalies. "
34

Boab,

The Behaviour Unit 11/11/2009 08:58:57
'everyone is involved in both academic and life skills courses together in senior school'

Sounds jolly good. Supposing the kids won't shut up, won't do homework, start throwing chairs around? That's the problem with Scottish education right there.

#19 Ben: 'Any exam success is illusory as it follow from course dumbing down. Scottish education is a disaster. No wonder parents who can put their kids into private schools that use English exams.'

Sorry, disagree with you there. All the SQA past papers for Scottish exams can be downloaded from here. Have a go at a couple if you think they're too easy -

http://www.sqa.org.uk/pastpapers/

Our education system caters pretty well for those who are prepared to behave and work hard.
35

dyon gollins's back,

Den Haag 11/11/2009 09:04:25
It's not clear from this story what Wilkinson's recipe is and the lurid language used suggests that there is some heavy political motivation behind his remarks. Education academics are always on about structural change but everyone knows that this costs a huge amount of time and energy for schools and diverts teachers' resources and energy away from teaching. What is needed is better focus on teaching techniques and problem solving in the schools.
Having said that the kind of fine tuning practised in Kirkcudbright may well have worked there although it is questionable whether that would be workable or appropriate for all schools?? I remember a few years ago reading about much improved perfomance of pupils at a school in Easterhouse achieved not by structural changes but through the inspired effort and energy of the head teacher and the staff there. This is the sort of thing that has to be supported and Wilkinson's comments are unhelpful if he suggests that this is the responsibility of the central administration of whatever political persuasion.
36

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 11/11/2009 09:13:57
According to the OECD the country that ranks the highest in Maths, Science and Reading Skills is Finland.

Maybe we should be learning how they do it rather than trying to emulate England which does not even attain the OECD average.

http://www.pisa.oecd.org
37

Soosider,

Glasgow 11/11/2009 09:19:53
I watched this "academic" on Newsnight last night, he came across as arrogant and self opinionated. His sole rationale for change was that England was out performing Scotland. No analysis of the reported improvements in England, where there is serious concerns about the quality of these apparent improvements, ie is it that the exams have gotten easier.
I would think it would be foolish to base such an important change on this dubious data.
The block from East Lothian seemed to be suggesting that his authority was looking at the possibility of exploring some form of Trust, he was at length to clarify that he did not see the English model as appropriate for his Authority, but rather they were looking at the possibility of clusters of schools, secondary and feeder primaries, and exploring if allowing more flexibility to a trust arrangement would assist the communities in being more involved in their schools.
38

Alan B,

11/11/2009 09:31:59
#jane shore

I think there are a few issues.

"Scottish schools stuck 'in spiral of decline'"

Has there really been an absolute decline in scottish education. We were continually told grades were going up. Is that grade inflation.

Or have education attainments improved but the article is talking about relative decline.

The article also is about saying scotland should follow the english model. But fails to recognise that there has been widespread critism of english education in england. Alot of talk of grade inflation. And i posted the OECD international comparison showing england falling down the international tables.

There is a difficulty comparing as i said for a variety of reasons. Different exams. Tests are dependent on what and how things are taught. Different types of education systems can try to produce different types of results. Also while comparing primary kids can be an indicator of the future the important thing is the end result not how well someone does at a young age.

I think much of the article misses the point in trying to work out how scottish education can be improved and where it is good and where it fails.

We really need in scotland a much higher quality of education debate rather than a parochial and political obsession with england.
39

mr broon,

Edinburgh 11/11/2009 09:34:05
By coincidence, headlines in today's edition of The Guardian:

"School Governors are becoming powerless pawns."

The Richard Rose Central City Academy in Carlisle is one of the few self-governing English "city academies" which is sponsored by two local businessmen.

Parents complain that the school's sponsor's are ensuring that "place men" school governors are
running the school and they have no input, and it is affecting every aspect of their children's education.

Some parents intend to take the school and its sponsors to Court to ensure a more representative make-up of school governors.

(Source: The Guardian)
40

Alan B,

11/11/2009 09:37:23
#jane shore

Where do you think scottish education should be improved? Where do you think scottish education can learn from the english system?

For me the problem with Scottish education is:
1)discipline, there has been a move to include problem kids in mainstream education, which is disruptive to the vast majority.
2)low expectations, there is a cultural issue to make kids think they can achieve difficult when they have few role models and parents who are relatively uneducated and do not value education.

Over the past decade we have had far too much paper work and political interference.

And we seem more interested in paper qualifications than whether the person can do the job. (few teachers will have worked in other areas and that means they cannot bring that experience to the class room).



41

Warden Resurrected,

11/11/2009 09:37:41
Alan B
30-Try and keep up Alan and follow my link here showing the TIMSS results for Scotland, with some comparison with other countries. Again I note a weaker showing than Scotland by Norway.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2009/10/13150724/1
It is also true the Scottish Enlightenment was within the Union too, and as far as my knowledge stretches I’ve not yet heard the period being described as being detrimental. Popular culture on its own has probably had the greatest detrimental effect on the Scottish education system and of the other countries in the UK. How many films and other programmes show those who enjoy education being called swats and geeks. Children take these things in. As for the preoccupation with England and how Scotland fairs in European comparisons, you’ve got to be kidding right, the SNP fan base on this site are constantly preoccupied with England and how Scotland fairs against other countries in Europe. Me thinks a bit of SNP supporters denial at work here.
42

Alan B,

11/11/2009 09:41:41
#Warden Resurrected

Try and understand what I wrote.

Responding with stuff completely irrelevent to what I wrote is meaningless.

"you’ve got to be kidding right, the SNP fan base on this site are constantly preoccupied with England"

That just shows your own ignorance and prejudice. Independence is about scotland taking reponsibility for its own decision making. The union and unionist on this site are obsessed with england.
43

Alan B,

11/11/2009 09:45:00
#Warden Resurrected

Now answer what i acutally wrote.

Why do you obviously think it is a good idea not to have democratic accountability of education?

Why do you think it is good for a government in westminster with little support north of the border to impose major education reforms on scotland that the UK education minister does not support. ie they are elected on a mandate of supporting education policies and then impose different ones on a different part of the uk with no mandate?
44

jane shore,

london 11/11/2009 09:47:41

AlanB #40.. As I'm not involved in education,it would be wrong for me to comment on how Scottish education can be improved. That would be arrogant.

But, I will supply relevent statistics when posters (particularly cybernats) unfairly criticize education standards down here.

Poster "The Answer" stats are rarely refuted by any of you, he/she is just slagged off. That is not a "high quality of debate"

I agree with your last paragraph #38. England is an obsession with some of you.
45

Korgi,

Kelso 11/11/2009 09:57:29
For the last 20 years Scottish Education has been in a state of perpetual change. Many of these changes have hadlittle to do with education but have been reorganisations designed to save money. Others have had the result of taking away from teachers and schools the right to think independently and have offered them a 'one truth' approach to education - a truth offered by politicians and officials who are as far away from the classroom as it is possible to be! Throw in a barrage of legislation in areas such as health and safety, an epidemic of paper exercises such as School Improvement Plans and it is hardly surprising that the quality of education on offer has diminished. The needs of the system have been promoted over the needs of children. It's all 'big picture' now! This quite misses the fact that it is those little episodes which happen day by day in classrooms through the interaction of learners and teachers that determine the quality of our system. Give schools and teachers the right to THINK FOR THEMSELVES again and then we'll see some real change for the better! Let's throw away too the narrow measurement of success based on academic attainment in a few areas of the curriculum. We're asking the wrong questions! Are our children motiveated? Inspired? Curious? Creative? Imaginative? Happy to be in school? Eager to learn? Teachers I know are dedicated and hard-working but are they excited about their teaching? Are they happy in their work? Are their ideas valued? Are they relaxed? Are they unafraid?
Let's have a look at the human aspects of education and stop continually changing all the technical and organisational aspects that excite the 'management' so much!
46

Gerry McGuigan,

DUNDEE 11/11/2009 10:03:28
For several years, I have been telling people that the standard of education in the Philippines is higher than here. For example 2 out of 3 students at university fail their exams at the first attempt in the Philippines. I have also said that Mandarin should be taught in the schools as the Himalayan ice cap is disappearing and as Gaelic has been replaced by English,so English will be replaced by our future masters' Mandarin.
47

portonian,

scotland 11/11/2009 10:07:09
It is now one of the best state schools in Scotland, because they have innovated," he said.(wilkinson)

Self praise is no honour and not un-biassed
if this simple solution is the answer why has it taken so long to arrive
48

Spannerstherevengein3D,

11/11/2009 10:26:01
41

So do you think the kids in Estonia Latvia and the Ukraine are better educated now than those kids who were educated within the Soviet Union?
49

Media for one,

11/11/2009 10:30:53
Scottish kids dont play sport anymore, they smoke, drink and eat chippies, hence the reason our nation football team is in a dire mess, our best club sides are nowhere in Europe, which only serves up the shocking truth about the rest of the teams, our national rugby side is the worst of the original 8 big nations. Anti social behaviour is more common than poilteness and respect, kids arrive at school looking like they have been dragged there behind a bus and they leave in the afternoon with less knowledge than they had when they arrived that morning.
A paradigm shift in psyche is required in Scotland!
50

Alan B,

11/11/2009 10:37:42
#jane shore

I do not think posters are slagging of English education. The scotsman is trying to provoke such an outcome by its parochial articles.

But if the scotsman is trying say scotland should follow english education reforms and I posted a few links saying that English education standards were falling in international terms and were being slagged of by both the rightish and leftish intelligent english media.

While all reports can produce different results depending how they set their aims and therefore have to be consider carefully. If the English standards are falling in international terms as per the links i provided (i have not idea whether the OECD comparison is particually valid or not) but then it is silly to say scotland should follow that lead.

It is also silly of the article to say scotland should follow the english reforms if they do not try to understand the weakness and where scottish education is failing.

Do you think Scottish education improvements are just grade inflation?

Do you think English education improvements are just grade inflation?

51

Spannerstherevengein3D,

11/11/2009 10:38:43
45

Exactly education is no longer about educating but making money or saving money. Its become a business rather than serving a need. Its one of the major flaws in privatisation where profit is everything and customer service comes last.
The political lies cannot sustain themselves when the truth detrementally affects everybody.
I know I keep harping on about privatisation and public services but this privatisation dogma is seriously underminning our communities and public well being in all aspects of our lives. It is the root cause of the vast majority of our problems in health education and finance. It thrives on boom and bust and pig ignorance.
Wake up folks you can change this dogma simply by voting for Independence.
52

Ulster Protestant,

11/11/2009 10:39:34
Of course people seem to forget that it ought to be the parents responsibility to educate their children. There is too much "hand them over to the state" mentality, and what we are seeing is overwhelming evidence that the state does few things well. Education is one of them.
53

Alan B,

11/11/2009 10:40:32
#jane shore

Poster Answer has been challenged before and just post similar rubbish.

"679 new undergraduates enter university for each English Parliamentary Constituency seat

491 new udergraduates enter university for each scots Parliamentary Constituency seat"

What relevance does that have?

poster 14 pointed out that was "Meaningless unless we know the relative populations of English and Scottish constituencies."

Scotland has smaller constituencies.
54

Spannerstherevengein3D,

11/11/2009 10:41:39
50

The answer is to simply stop treating our education system as a business enterprise and to treat it as a necessary public service. Let our educators concentrate on providing an education rather than spend their whole day worrying about where their next funding is going to come from.
55

Spannerstherevengein3D,

11/11/2009 10:48:43
52

Cack the education system started to deteriorate at the same time as it started to become privatised and divisive.
The best teachers go where they are paid the best salaries. Teachers are now headhunted into expensively run schools. What else did they think would happen to our education system?
56

Alan B,

11/11/2009 10:50:14
#Spannerstherevengein3D

Do not understand your point.

Scotland has seen alot more money thrown at education over the last decade. Scotland school education is not a business and there is no privatisation of the scottish state system. It is council run.

57

Ulster Protestant,

11/11/2009 10:51:25
Actually 55, you are quite wrong!. The education system started to deteriorate when the churches foolishly handed over the schools to the state, with a vague promise to teach Biblical Christianity. That is where it went wrong.

But again, it is the parents that are responsible for the education of children - not the nanny state.
58

Warden Resurrected,

11/11/2009 10:55:07
Alan B
42-No Alan it only shows just how far into denial you’ve sunk. My aim too is for independence for Scotland and maybe had you read what I’ve wrote in the past you would’ve known this, then again maybe denial is blocking this from you too.
59

Warden Resurrected,

11/11/2009 10:56:38
Spannerstherevengein3D
48-I've got no data to show one way or the other.
60

Spannerstherevengein3D,

11/11/2009 11:21:48
56

An Education system within the public domain wouldnt need all this extra cash thrown at it because it could claim all it needed from the state.
We are still paying the same taxation levels pre privatisation and we still have to pay for our private education on top plus VAT now where is the benefit?
61

Spannerstherevengein3D,

11/11/2009 11:23:58
57

Give me a break most kids are smarter than their parents to begin with.
62

Spannerstherevengein3D,

11/11/2009 11:25:46
59

So where does the theory that an education within the union is more beneficial than an education within an Independent state come from?
63

The Tin Man,

11/11/2009 11:31:20
As far as funding goes, there are stark choices. We can give more money to students, or we can give more money to universities. We can give more money to teachers, or we can give more money to schools.

At the end of the day, spending on Scottish education has doubled over the last decade, and educational standards have shown little improvement. That's not value for money.

The idea is that more money is spent on better educating the population to promote economic growth, and the exec needs to take a long, hard look at doing things that make a real difference. However, we have Fiona Hyslop, who is struggling to even introduce the curriculum for excellence, which is but one strand of the educational changes made south of the border.
64

The Tin Man,

11/11/2009 11:35:52
#62 Spannerstherevengein3D, 11/11/2009 11:25:46

"So where does the theory that an education within the union is more beneficial than an education within an Independent state come from?"

The Scottish education system is almost entirely independent of Westminster. It is run by the Scottish government, and the local authorities of Scotland. It can be seen as a major example of the benefits available to an independent State that makes independent decisions.
65

ecosseman,

FACTS NOT PROPAGANDA 11/11/2009 11:37:05
WILL 75 YEARS OF LABOUR CONTROL ALL OF SCOTLAND HAS SUFFERED,NOT JUST SCHOOLS LOOK AT THE STATE OF STV-THE SCOTSMAN-THE RECORD-THE HERALD- AND THE BRITISH BRAINWASHING CORP-ETC ETC.

WE HAVE A MAJOR JOB IN REBUILDING SCOTLAND TO MATCH OTHER INDEPENDANT COUNTRIES,BUT WE WILL DO IT WITH OR WITHOUT THE HELP FROM THE MEDIA.

WHY CANT THE MEDIA LOOK TO THE FUTURE,THEIR BUSINESS WILL EXPAND AND PROSPER DUE TO PEOPLE HAVING MORE MONEY TO SPEND AND LOADS LESS ON THE DOLE(WATCH THIS SPACE)

THE CHOICE IS VERY CLEAR TO SCOTLANDS PEOPLE,DO YOU WANT MORE OF NOTHING OR CHANGE NOW FOR THE BETTER.

THE FUTURE IS BRIGHT,THE FUTURE IS SCOTLAND!

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!

66

Alan B,

11/11/2009 11:38:53
#58 Warden Resurrected

"No Alan it only shows just how far into denial you’ve sunk."

That does not make any sense. As you simply have not addressed the pointed I made.

The point being that pre devolution that there was little democratic accountability over change. And gave you an example of the major education changes in the 80s.

67

Alan B,

11/11/2009 11:42:13
#Spannerstherevengein3D

"So where does the theory that an education within the union is more beneficial than an education within an Independent state come from?"

Surely independence is largely irrelevent now for education now that education is a devolved issue. (other than funding issues).

68

Maurice,

11/11/2009 11:42:19
1
Charles Linskaill,Edinburgh: Then howcome Scottish kids are so thick?
69

Warden Resurrected,

11/11/2009 11:45:59
Alan B
43-There’s nothing like an over inflated ego to write “acutally” when comments actually contain supposition. Say I take your “acutally” as an error on your part and suppose you meant to write actually. Ask yourself who knows education better, those who educate like the teachers or the politicians and the general public. You soon see the irrelevance behind asking about the quality in education and how democratic accountability will improve said quality in education. The thing which really blows the mind though is knowing you couldn’t put public money into something like education without democratic accountability. You seem to be advocating education throughout the UK to be uniform, and there was me thinking Scots wanted to keep their education system separate to the one in England.
70

Spannerstherevengein3D,

11/11/2009 11:48:45
67

Not if its state controlled and that state doesnt control its own income and resourses now is it?
71

Spannerstherevengein3D,

11/11/2009 11:50:42
64

But how can a state fund its own state services without full control of its own state income and funding? when it has to pass over 3/4 of its income to another country?
72

Spannerstherevengein3D,

11/11/2009 11:51:27
63

We cant give any of the money we pass over to the UK government to anybody else can we?
73

Alan B,

11/11/2009 11:53:45
#69 Warden Resurrected

So you resorted to the fact I have a typo. Says more about you.

You started the rudeness in #41 and as such I have responded in a similar manner.

You may not agree with what I posted but your response was one of avoidance in responding to what I had posted making it meaningless.

You may think that having a government abolish the OGrade system and replace it with the Standard Grade system without a democratic mandate from the people. I do not. I think democratic accountability is important.





74

Jo Public,

11/11/2009 12:13:19
"Eric Wilkinson, professor of education at the University of Glasgow, accused the SNP government of ignoring fresh thinking and said Scotland's education system"

Professor of idoicy more like.

This decline started decades ago under Lyebour. SNP need tome to fix it - its a big job.

To make matters worse I heard on the radio this morning that Lyebour seem to be ahead in the running for Glasgow North East. How depressing is that? A return to the party that has failed them for 74 years. Another 74 years of terminal decline ahead. These people deserve to get what they vote for.
75

Jo Public,

11/11/2009 12:24:09
Most people watching the Greatest Scot programme on STV the past couple of nights must have cringed with toe-curling embarrassment at the nomination of David Tennant amongst the great Scots of the past from Engineering, Scientific, Medical, Artistic etc backgrounds. David Tennant - the people's choice apparently. Evidence indeed of decades and decades of the decline in the standard of education.
76

Iain Mac,

11/11/2009 12:56:47
#40 - the amount of paper work teachers have is incredible. Yet most of it is merely 'jumping through hoops'. Funnily enough, the Finnish seem to take a more relaxed attitude yet have better attainment than anyone.
77

Bartholomew Winkleberry ,

11/11/2009 13:03:06
Jo Public,11/11/2009 12:24:09

Yes Jo I agree with you 100%.

David Tennant ahead of Jimmy Krankie?

What are these people thinking about?
78

,

11/11/2009 13:49:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
79

Fairfax,

11/11/2009 14:01:33
Servant of the Norse Gods (78): "We are certainly not any time soon going to produce another James Clark-Maxwell, Simpson or Lister."

Joseph Lister was, in fact, born and educated in England, although he is rightly famous for his work in Edinburgh. As for the excellent James Clerk Maxwell, he was made redundant by the University of Aberdeen, following which he was employed by King's College, London, and his alma mater, the University of Cambridge. Thus JCM's most famous work was done at English universities.
80

Jo Public,

11/11/2009 14:37:37
#77. Ha ha Tinkie Winkie. How's yer relations, Laa laa, Po and Dipsy?
81

Warden Resurrected,

The Nationalist Republic of Scotoma 11/11/2009 15:14:25
Alan B
73-The “fact” of your typo has only been established by your own admittance now, there was nothing definite in a statement like “Now answer what i acutally wrote”. Maybe you should’ve also noticed I gave you the benefit of the doubt on a possible error in spelling and then commented on your post. Maybe this says more about you. It’s just a shame you didn’t qualify your statement of me being rude in #41.
Now would you kindly revise the errors in the following statement from your post at #73, it doesn’t make sense and I wouldn’t wish to second guess you again in case you again see it as being unduly harsh on you.
“You may think that having a government abolish the OGrade system and replace it with the Standard Grade system without a democratic mandate from the people. I do not. I think democratic accountability is important.”
82

The Answer,

Glasgow 11/11/2009 15:21:06
61,383,000 UK Population mid 2008 (100%)

51,446,000 England (83.81%)
05,169,000 scotland (08.42%)
02,993,000 Wales (04.88%)
01,775,000 N Ireland (02.89%)


422,126 UK domiciled New fulltime undergraduates 2009 (100%)

359,290 England (85.11%)
028,979 scotland (06.87%)
020,230 Wales (04.79%)
013,627 N Ireland (03.23%)


of which

325,994 under 20 years of age (100%)

277,045 England (85.00%)
021,887 scotland (06.71%)
015,369 Wales (04.72%)
011,643 N Ireland (03.75%)


of which

45,779 aged 21 - 24 (100%)

38,702 England (84.54%)
03,545 scotland (07.74%)
02,257 Wales (04.93%)
01,275 N Ireland(02.79%)


of which

50,403 aged 25+ (100%)

43,543 England (86.39%)
03,547 scotland (07.04%)
02,604 Wales (05.17%)
00,709 N Ireland (01.41%)


£12.177 billion Public expenditure tertiary education 2008 - 2009 (100%)

of which

£9,929 billion England (81.54%)
£1,484 billion scotland (12.19%)
£0,438 billion Wales (03.60%)
£0,326 billion N Ireland (02.68%)


12.19% of expenditure to scotland, yet producing less than 7% of new undergraduates??????????????


source:

Population
tinyurl.com/yfjhjqj

UCAS
tinyurl.com/ygo8wy6

HM Treasury
tinyurl.com/ygla4yv
83

Eric D,

11/11/2009 15:24:24
The social engineers have ruined state education - no wonder more and more of us are opting for private education. A once respected and rigorous education system is now a laughing stock, thanks to the nutty politicians.
84

,

11/11/2009 15:27:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
85

Jo Public,

11/11/2009 15:40:10
#82.

No of posts posted by The Answer (8.01%)
No of posts that are shoite (100%)
86

The Answer,

Glasgow 11/11/2009 16:02:52
#85

You can post as much bile as you like, but what is going to be done to fix the education system in scotland??

More English tax's?

More Welsh tax's?

More N Ireland tax's?


£0.756 billion combined tertiary education budget of Wales and N Ireland.
£1.484 billion tertiary education budget scotland


4,768,000 combined population Wales + N Ireland
5,169,000 population scotland

33,857 combined total new undergraduates Wales + N Ireland
28,979 new undergraduates scotland

Wales + N Ireland with half of the budget of scotland and 400,000 less population, manage to produce 5,000 more undergraduates than scotland.

Nobody can justify what's going on in scotland, it's unsustainable in the short term as well as the long term.
87

Jo Public,

11/11/2009 16:56:40
#86.

tax's ? Tax's is a possessive noun. Don't you mean taxes? You want to get a bit of education yourself pal.

"Nobody can justify what's going on in scotland, it's unsustainable in the short term as well as the long term"

Errrmmmm........London is the subsidy junkies of Britain. We, Scotland and the rest of the country, do not think this is sustainable either. Not in the short term and not in the long term.

Pouring billions and billions of oil revenue into Westminster coffers is not a fair deal. You know it.
88

The Answer,

Glasgow 11/11/2009 17:01:50
#87

pal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe your education would of taught you how to provide a link to your source regarding London being the subsidy junkie of britain.. Would of been interesting to read it, but as we both know, a link to your mind is not possible over the internet..
89

Jo Public,

11/11/2009 17:06:20
#88

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk

Page 128.

Read it and come back to us.
90

The Answer,

Glasgow 11/11/2009 17:22:41
89 Jo Public,11/11/2009 17:06:20

"http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk
Page 128.

Read it and come back to us"

As I was saying!

Maybe your education would of taught you how to provide a link to your source.........
91

Fairfax,

11/11/2009 18:35:43
Servant (84): "The "we" in my post #78 includes England."

How very Unionist of you. I'm sure you were aware that Lister was English, of course.

"I do not believe the situation is very much different down South"

It isn't.

"There are many articles appearing in English papers wherein large employers such as Tesco complain about the quality of education of their recent employees"

Agreed. However, similar worries occur in all EU states I've visited, including Finland. The simple fact of the matter is that there are fewer jobs for those below median intelligence than there used to be.I don't really think Scotland has much to worry about, despite this survey: the variation in marks between the various European states was not particularly large.
92

uno.who,

Livingston 11/11/2009 18:40:20
Isn't a "TRUST" a failed Blairite idea?

"The National Association of Head Teachers said ... it had concerns the plans "will still be a Trojan horse, and used to change the educational landscape, creating a two-tier education system with worse schools and poorer education for our most disadvantaged young people. The union's general secretary, Mick Brookes, said: "This is not so much a battle over vision and reform as a battle for survival of a government that has clearly lost its way with its keynote policy."

93

uno.who,

Livingston 11/11/2009 18:42:17
... seems strange that the SNP should be forging ahead with a system which got Ruth Kelly such a kicking !
94

Donkey Hote,

11/11/2009 18:55:19


The SNP has no interest in educating school kids for a life of unemployment in Salmond's Independent Scottish Utopia.

Alec Salmond, World renowned for having discovered the cure for Anorexia, why doesn't he promulgate his magic solution?
95

radge dug,

11/11/2009 19:33:03
Saw Wilkinson on Reporting Scotland tonight - totally unconvincing - he just seemed like an auld out of touch and slightly senile has been.

The headteacher that spoke was aware of current initiatives and seemed very enthusiastic and positive. Funny how Wilkinson totally blanks the new Curriculum for Excellence! Teaching kids skills and not endless facts is what it's about.
96

Jo Public,

11/11/2009 19:52:00
#90 The Answer

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/pesa_180609.pdf
97

Donkey Hote,

11/11/2009 20:10:29


Why is Salmond wanting to reduce the voting age in Scotland?
Salmond says sixteen, a lot of his supporters want that reduced further. Will there be full Disclosures from all these SNP supporters who want access to impresssionable schoolchildren?

Is Salmond suggesting reducing the age of voting in Scotland for educational, or, electoral purposes, or, to pander to elements in his party that most sensible parents would forcibly reject?

"Observer," above is a woman. With her knowledge of SNP supporters and hangers-on, how many of that self-selecting group would she feel comfortable letting loose amongst young, immature, vulnerable, potential voters?
98

Kobi.,

11/11/2009 20:30:30
#5 "679 new undergraduates enter university for each English Parliamentary Constituency seat

"491 new udergraduates enter university for each scots Parliamentary Constituency seat"


Glasgow contributes 100% of the "most stupid bampot ever to disgrace our educational system" total.

You sir, are a complete and utter f***wit who should never be let near statistics, as you clearly do not understand them. If I was as incompetent at statistics as you, I would state that you are conclusive proof that Scottish education has dumbed down.

99

Kobi.,

11/11/2009 20:33:58
#30 Alan B

"Consider the 1980s education reforms that swept away the OGrade system. They were introduced by a government with no electral mandate in scotland who were advocating and voted in on the basis of supporting a completely different education system down south."

My recollection is that Munn & Dunning, and all the changes that followed to O Grades were made with generally cross-party support (apart from a few suspicious Tories who thought this was dumbing down education). These changes were generally driven by the educational establishment, rather than a diktat imposed from on high.

Of course, my recollection could be wrong, but I was much more heavily involved with the education system then than I am now.
100

The Answer,

Glasgow 11/11/2009 20:39:06

# 98 Kobi.,11/11/2009 20:30:30

sticks and stones!!!!!!!!!!


61,383,000 UK Population mid 2008 (100%)

51,446,000 England (83.81%)
05,169,000 scotland (08.42%)
02,993,000 Wales (04.88%)
01,775,000 N Ireland (02.89%)


422,126 UK domiciled New fulltime undergraduates 2009 (100%)

359,290 England (85.11%)
028,979 scotland (06.87%)
020,230 Wales (04.79%)
013,627 N Ireland (03.23%)


of which

325,994 under 20 years of age (100%)

277,045 England (85.00%)
021,887 scotland (06.71%)
015,369 Wales (04.72%)
011,643 N Ireland (03.75%)


of which

45,779 aged 21 - 24 (100%)

38,702 England (84.54%)
03,545 scotland (07.74%)
02,257 Wales (04.93%)
01,275 N Ireland(02.79%)


of which

50,403 aged 25+ (100%)

43,543 England (86.39%)
03,547 scotland (07.04%)
02,604 Wales (05.17%)
00,709 N Ireland (01.41%)


£12.177 billion Public expenditure tertiary education 2008 - 2009 (100%)

of which

£9,929 billion England (81.54%)
£1,484 billion scotland (12.19%)
£0,438 billion Wales (03.60%)
£0,326 billion N Ireland (02.68%)


12.19% of expenditure to scotland, yet producing less than 7% of new undergraduates??????????????


source:

Population
tinyurl.com/yfjhjqj

UCAS
tinyurl.com/ygo8wy6

HM Treasury
tinyurl.com/ygla4yv
101

Kobi.,

11/11/2009 20:45:38
#100 Where's your cut & paste rubbish about constituencies?
102

Hume100,

11/11/2009 21:38:44
#98. In that case, you'll easily be able to refute the statistics
103

Kobi.,

11/11/2009 21:56:33
#102

Answered at #53. He repeats this rubbish week on week on week. Doesn't even understand what he is typing, and ignores those who have politely tried to correct him.
104

The Answer,

Glasgow 11/11/2009 23:27:00
646 Parliament members (100%)

529 England (81.89%)
059 scotland (09.13%)
040 Wales (06.19%)
018 N Ireland (02.79%)


653 New undergraduates average per Parliamentary Seat (422,126 divide by 646 = 653)!

679 England (359,290 divide by 529 = 679)
491 scotland (28,979 divide by 59 = 491)
505 Wales (20,230 divide by 40 = 505)
757 N Ireland (13,627 divide by 18 = 757)



61,383,000 UK Population mid 2008 (100%)

51,446,000 England (83.81%)
05,169,000 scotland (08.42%)
02,993,000 Wales (04.88%)
01,775,000 N Ireland (02.89%)


422,126 UK domiciled New fulltime undergraduates 2009 (100%)

359,290 England (85.11%)
028,979 scotland (06.87%)
020,230 Wales (04.79%)
013,627 N Ireland (03.23%)


of which

325,994 under 20 years of age (100%)

277,045 England (85.00%)
021,887 scotland (06.71%)
015,369 Wales (04.72%)
011,643 N Ireland (03.75%)


of which

45,779 aged 21 - 24 (100%)

38,702 England (84.54%)
03,545 scotland (07.74%)
02,257 Wales (04.93%)
01,275 N Ireland(02.79%)


of which

50,403 aged 25+ (100%)

43,543 England (86.39%)
03,547 scotland (07.04%)
02,604 Wales (05.17%)
00,709 N Ireland (01.41%)


£12.177 billion Public expenditure tertiary education 2008 - 2009 (100%)

of which

£9,929 billion England (81.54%)
£1,484 billion scotland (12.19%)
£0,438 billion Wales (03.60%)
£0,326 billion N Ireland (02.68%)


12.19% of expenditure to scotland, yet producing less than 7% of new undergraduates??????????????


source:

UK Parliament
tinyurl.com/yaluwz4

Population
tinyurl.com/yfjhjqj

UCAS
tinyurl.com/ygo8wy6

HM Treasury
tinyurl.com/ygla4yv
105

Hume100,

11/11/2009 23:42:52
#103. No it wasn't. #53 would have to do the necessary sums himself to prove otherwise, not just make assertions. I have corrected #104 in the past and that particular statistic has never reappeared.
He/She does at least have the wit to post statements that can be checked/refuted. Might not like them but just saying "bampot" or similar is very childish
106

Boudicca's Henchman,

The wash 12/11/2009 11:17:34
As one who spent 50 years as an active member of the national workforce, with three months unemployment and no qualifications - many jobs each taking me another step up the ladder and adding a diverse experience to the whole, a change of management informed me that at the 60 I was not qualified for the job I had been doing for the past 10 years and they were appointing a young graduate to be my superior, and they would be pleased if I would show him the job, I did and then left to set up on my own. The reason for this post is to say that too much emphasis is put on qualifications and not enough on skill and aptitude. By the way I was involved in specialist filtration and shock absorption.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.