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Rejecting Trump plan 'would be a tragedy'

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Published Date: 05 July 2008
IT WOULD be a tragedy for Scotland if Donald Trump's ambitious plans for a £1 billion golf resort on a protected stretch of the Aberdeenshire coast are rejected, the tycoon's counsel claimed yesterday.
Colin Boyd, the former Lord Advocate, told the inquiry into the controversial project that the country was "seldom presented with such an audacious proposal".

In an impassioned appeal to government planning reporters to back the scheme at Menie links, Lord Boyd said: "You only have to be in the presence of Donald Trump to understand its ambition or to walk the site to understand its scale, or to stand where the 13th tee will be to appreciate its grandeur.

"In my submission this truly is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. We will not see its like again. It would be a tragedy for Scotland if we let it pass by."

Speaking on the final day of the four-week-long inquiry at the Aberdeen Exhibition and Conference Centre, he added: "It is an inquiry which the applicants did not seek and would not have desired. Nevertheless it has resulted, in my submission, in an unprecedented level of scrutiny for an application."

Mr Trump's plan, he said, was to develop a major golf resort on a scale never seen before in Britain, centred on an "exceptional world-class" course on the Menie links in Aberdeenshire – a setting of high-quality landscape and environment.

The development, he said, would bring very significant economic benefits not just to the North-east but to Scotland as a whole.

But in order to achieve Mr Trump's vision of building the "best golf course in the world" it was vital to use the land within the Foveran site of special scientific interest (SSSI). The back nine holes of the main championship course would be laid out within the shifting sand-dunes in the SSSI. Lord Boyd said: "I accept that the development will have significant adverse effects on the qualities for which the area has been designated but I submit that these are clearly outweighed by economic benefits of national importance."

The applicants, he argued, had not sought to hide or massage the impacts of the development on the environment, and they had sought the advice of leading experts about the potential impact of the scheme.

"A more unscrupulous dev-eloper might have tried to obtain more pliable advice but that has not been the applicants' approach," said Lord Boyd.

He said Mr Trump's vision and the position of the Trump Organisation had been clear from the beginning. "If the applicants are to realise the vision of an exceptional world-class course underpinning £1 billion of investment then the championship course needs to use the SSSI," he told the inquiry. "To say that is not to refuse to compromise – it is a statement of principle and fact. Mr Trump made his position clear in his precognition when he said that the bottom line was that if he was refused permission to develop on the southern end of the SSSI he would withdraw from the development as it would not and could not fulfil his ambition…"

The inquiry reporters are expected to make their recommendations to Scottish ministers by late August or early September. The Trump development comprises two championship golf courses, a 450-room hotel, 1,000 timeshare apartments, 36 golf villas and 500 homes.

Sand-dunes landscape 'crucial' to Menie bid

DONALD Trump has made it clear from day one that the shifting sand-dunes in the Menie site of special scientific interest are key to his dream of creating the "world's greatest golf course" in Scotland.

He argued that without the spectacular landscape of the mobile dunes his main championship golf course will not be worth building at Menie and that he will simply walk away from the plan.

The land in the site of special scientific interest (SSSI) is "critical" to the development and it is critical to the development because of the scale of investment involved.

The Trump Organisation also maintains that this is an application where the social and economic benefits are of national importance and override the adverse environmental impacts.

Mr Trump insisted that he plans to minimise or mitigate the impact of the development where possible. Less than 10 per cent of the total SSSI area would be directly affected and two-thirds would not be affected at all.

It is also planned to "translocate" the habitats by stripping turf from protected areas and moving it elsewhere.

The tycoon has received the backing of Aberdeenshire Council and local business leaders, including Aberdeen and Grampian Chamber of Commerce.

They have all argued that the scheme is of national importance, will bring up to 1,200 jobs to the North-east of Scotland and will help the area diversify from its oil dependent economy and-establish it as a major world destination for golfers.

Danger of colossal damage for the region

AGAINST


THE proposed Trump development will cause "colossal and needless" environmental damage at the Menie Links, according to the main environmental groups opposing the scheme – RSPB Scotland and the Scottish Wildlife Trust.

If the tycoon is given the go-ahead to construct his course on a protected stretch of the Aberdeenshire coastline such a decision could prove potentially disastrous for Scotland's global environmental reputation and send out a "dangerous" message that Scotland is prepared to wantonly destroy its most precious natural assets.

Environmental campaigners claim that the mobile sand dune system at Menie is the most extensive example of a dynamic dune system in the UK and of unrivalled national ecological importance. Precious environmental assets must be protected.

The main purpose of designation as a site of special scientific interest (SSSI) is to defend nationally important areas against damaging developments and would be severely compromised by approval of the Trump scheme.

A spokesman for the organisations said: "All we want now is for ministers to consider what is best for Scotland, not simply for the applicant, and to stand by their repeatedly stated strategic goals of delivering sustainable economic growth that puts this country's environment at its core.

"If they decide this development should go ahead, they can issue a consent which avoids development in the legally protected SSSI while still allowing the rest of the proposal to be built."

They said it – exchanges in the battle of words

If somebody else had applied, they would have gotten it a lot easier than me. The celebrity and all of this media and craziness is probably a liability for me. But it's an asset for the area and for Scotland. Everybody is talking about this course all over the world."

Donald Trump

"The value of the Menie links as part of the Foveran SSSI cannot be overstated. It is, quite simply, the jewel in the crown of the SSSI areas of bare sand in this area of Scotland and, therefore, the jewel in the crown of the UK resource."

Dr Jim Hansom, a former member of the scientific advisory committee of Scottish Natural Heritage

"If you have a development such as this, then you have the prospect of not only rooting companies in the area, but also attracting others to come and locate their headquarters – perhaps their global headquarters – in this area."

Anne Robertson, the leader of Aberdeenshire Council

"The applicant had behaved very unusually towards the council and effectively demanded the surrender of the planning system."

Councillor Martin Ford

"Allowing the development as proposed would be tantamount to killing the goose that laid the golden egg. Approving the destruction of Menie links contravenes almost every planning policy, environmental policy and government strategy in the national canon.

"We do not believe that leisure developments of this kind should, or need to be at the expense of environmental assets of the highest value."

Jonathan Hughes, the head of policy for the Scottish Wildlife Trust


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 July 2008 12:41 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Donald Trump
 
1

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/07/2008 00:20:52

One good outcome must be,...

The learning lesson of,..Coming Against the Kilt'!

And any thoughts of a,..'Walk Over', is Not the Case!.
2

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 05/07/2008 00:47:21
Rejecting Trump would be madness. Wildlife, how unique can it be, we have miles and miles of coastine. Trumps plans are considerate to this.

Anti american feeling, anti personal wealth fanatics, nimbysism, etc have no place. It's a gift horse. The gated area will last a relative few years, the investment impact will last longer.
3

Blue Tooner,

Aberdeenshire 05/07/2008 01:01:55
With the recent global shift towards the promotion of environmental protection, how could anyone with an ounce of self-respect relax and enjoy a round of golf on a course that has caused so much environmental destruction? The developer has a chance here to do something that could win some respect from both sides of the debate, but he just won't budge.
Has anyone mentioned how much a golfer would have to pay to play the greatest course in the world? A lot of people would really like to know.
4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/07/2008 01:02:33

Thankyou, Ars Gratia Artis ~3,

"style" maybe difficult to understand, as was my schooling changes in my younger years, for me, this seems to come across in my commenting.

But I do get 'Compassionate' on subjects such as this one.

5

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 05/07/2008 01:09:04
The rejection of this plan is just tantamount to saying the Scot's are losers .... Left wing politiscams will not have anything to do with Trump because he will show them up to be the failures that they are ....

Can we not return to a Scotland that was great and that encouraged the success of all rather than just the success of the councilors son ?
6

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/07/2008 01:33:20

Ars Gratia Artis ~10,

I get these "doubles" at times as-well,

Thank God its not,...'Double Trump' :)

(as in cards, you understand!)....:D
7

mollyfurie,

California 05/07/2008 01:45:02
And this, from the Herald:
"Donald Trump's lawyer yesterday admitted the tycoon's planned £1bn golf resort would have "significant adverse effects" on the environment."

So it's a tragedy either way. Only the tragedy to the environment will last forever. And even the sub-super-rich may be flying a lot less as the environmental effects of their other enterprises and behaviors become unaffordable and perhaps too conspicuous for their health.

The golf course is only the sugar in this bitter drink. The gated community and 5-star hotel, from which Trump will derive the profits (not the locals - except those who are eager to work as hotel maids and in other menial capacity).

I think you will be paying a terrible price for the mere opportunity to grovel for tips - and perhaps, cultivate a charmingly quaint manner.

As for the environment being expendable, I wonder at what point the anti-environmentalists will cry 'hold, enough!' - and if, at that point, there will be anything left to save at all.

In environmental matters, all defeats are permanent, and all victories temporary.
8

Nit-Nat,

05/07/2008 02:18:55
Can I carry your bags sir, clean your toilet sir, make your bed sir, what club can I ready for you sir, very good sir.

Job creation SNP style, Trump Boulevard? Since when did we name Scottish streets after living Americans with no connection to the land the street is built on? The SNP are not Scottish, they are a parcel of rogues intent on selling Scotland for personal gain.
9

Willie Macleod,

Wick 05/07/2008 02:33:05

~#15 Ars Gratia Artis "Money for God's Sake"

Yes it is too late for redemption.
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/07/2008 02:38:13

Nit-Nat ~16,

You forgot!

'Can I Tie your,..'Shoe Lace',..'Sir',?

'Can I Wipe your Nose',.........'Sir,?

'Any more Tea',.................'Sir,?

Sir Trump!, must love it all!

But Don't get carried away!

The 'Sottish' People are NOT a,..'Walk Over' the Green!
11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/07/2008 02:42:19

Unlike some of our,..'Politician's'!

Who will,..Do a,..'Sell-Out'!
12

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/07/2008 02:45:11

Goodnight, Sleep Tight! and,..

Don't let the 'Golf Green Bugs Bite'!


(cu ya all later)
13

Terence Sutherland,

Woodlawn, New York 05/07/2008 05:26:29
If the Scots turn this great offer down, it wouldn't be surprising that Donald Trump would turn to the Scots Celtic cousins to the west...Ireland, and build it there, thumbing his nose in the process.

Over the years that I've done business w/the Scots, it seems they sometimes have their Ostrich heads in the sand, oblivious to good, positive changes.

Yet it has been my business experience that the Scots can come over here, year-after-year to Tartan Day NY and reap all the financial rewards and NOT include we Yanks in the profits! Now that the shoe is no the other foot, let's hope that progress and sound economic development will NOT be denied!
14

East Coast Chick,

05/07/2008 05:41:31
A must read to understand the real Donald and his quest for success! Not to be read by the na sayer's out there in cyber space.

Out of the mouths of his babes

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/features/10610/

My best wishes to Scotland, what ever your decision may be....

15

somerferg,

perth 05/07/2008 05:44:32

#16 - oh how clever of you. Your comments are so insightful and intelligent. Are you by any chance the holder of a PhD?
16

East Coast Chick,

05/07/2008 05:59:16
#16

Way too go to promote us yanks to come across the pond and spend our rubbish money in Scotland. If you don't enjoy our company, then don't promote tourism. Personally, I'll be back because I have some very special relatives who appreciate my company.
17

Beth Boyle,

NY 05/07/2008 06:01:49
Saying its a tragedy???? Now that makes for real comedy. How arrogant is that? Donald you never fail to amuse. King of "Me" and bad taste you are! I suppose you think the sun will never again shine on the dunes with out your plastic posh playground? Oh Please...?
18

East Coast Chick,

05/07/2008 06:17:09
Beth for goodness sake, let the good people of Scotland make their own decision on this issue. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know how much you disdain the Donald. But you don't live in Scotland (I'm more then sure that a few folk over there are happy about that)

Kidding aside, you seem to be a well informed lady, but its not our decision to make. So fade into the background and stop trying to pound your distaste for this project into the heads of those who matter.

19

Beth Boyle,

NY 05/07/2008 06:39:27
East Coast Chick go back to the hen house and lay an egg!
20

Hamish Simpson,

Central Perk 05/07/2008 06:44:14
*27

Why do you care?
21

East Coast Chick,

05/07/2008 06:45:25
What ever you say Beth, your wish is my command.

22

Beth Boyle,

NY 05/07/2008 06:46:35
Thank you, if that be true put a sock in your pie hole.
23

Hamish Simpson,

Leith 05/07/2008 06:47:39

27

Sounds like you have an ironic surname?
24

Hamish Simpson,

Central perk 05/07/2008 06:49:15

30#

Why should she copy your antics from last night. I reckon your girlfriend will be jelous.
25

Beth Boyle,

NY 05/07/2008 06:51:44
Antics from last night? I have been married 28 years and you are stepping over the line, Hamish.
26

Hamish Simpson,

Just over the line 05/07/2008 06:54:32

I refer you to thread 30 - Looks over the line to me
27

East Coast Chick,

05/07/2008 06:58:33
Beth thank you for your last comment, it certainly shows just how much style, grace and respect you truly have 0=0

FYI, my nephew was murdered by his step mother when she shoved a sock in his pie hole 34 years ago, which killed him. Thank you for bringing this memory up again

28

Beth Boyle,

NY 05/07/2008 07:00:59
You said what ever I wished you would do so do it now and stop ranting like a fool.
29

Hamish Simpson,

Juet within the line 05/07/2008 07:06:42

Beth,

Tell me that you were not that "step mother"...........

I assume that you have lots of cats
30

Beth Boyle,

NY 05/07/2008 07:10:09
No Hamish, I don't have allot of cats. Are you married to that chick? I expect actually you are the same person posting under two names, LOL
31

Beth Boyle,

NY 05/07/2008 07:20:11
I thought so...
32

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 05/07/2008 07:44:06
Oh Beth, Beth, Beth. Still spouting anti-Trump rubbish I see.

Your views - as are EVERYONE'S on here - won't amount to a hill of beanz as WE do not have the final say....the Scottish Govt will have the final say.

If it is YES will you come over & link arms with Ford in a vain attempt to stop development?

What an image THAT conjures up...:-O

What the people of the NE Scotland want is NO concern of yours across the pond.

Now, once & for all, BEHAVE! :-)
33

Hamish Simpson,

Not the same person 05/07/2008 07:55:17

Sitting in E0 being the dinburgh not being: (i) married to the chick, or (ii) being the chick.

Married to 28 years - too a bunch of cats
34

dianne13 ,

aberdeenshire 05/07/2008 08:08:25
The Scottish gov should be very careful who they do business with their marketing of mythical Scottish ancestry to Americans will backfire.
Read some of the research by Hague about the right wing connections, such as those between with Alex Salmond and Trent Lott. Here is and extract form one article to give you some idea.

'The Scottish National Party raises support and maintains an office in the US, and its recruiting leaflets are circulated at Celtic fairs and events. Hague warned them: "Scottishness in the USA is tied up in a politics much further to the right than the SNP advocate for Scotland. Perhaps this could come back to haunt Scotland, especially as the feeling is that American Scots should have more say in Scottish affairs."

It is apparent that sections of the US far right...find a mythical version of Scottish history useful for their present political purposes.'

Trump has used this very angle -his application is about gaining a foothold in Scotland for politcal purposes, demonstrated by conquering nature and people.
Reject it now or live with the ugly consequences.
35

Beth Boyle,

NY 05/07/2008 08:11:06
Richard you just might deserve the Donald, Hee hee! Good night! Its very late here.
36

jerrymanders,

Blowin' in the wind 05/07/2008 08:37:07
Sand dunes are formed by wind. The North East coast is windy. The North East coast if often foggy. It is seldom that warm, even in summer. I know, I lived there for 10 years. The Americans don't particularly like links courses, they prefer pitch and putt target golf with lush green, wide, fairways and NO WIND. So why would an American build the "World's greatest golf course" there? There are enough windy courses for the locals already. Housing?
37

donald,

glasgow 05/07/2008 08:45:58
He's be quicker applying to the Treaty of Rome for permission to rebuild Hadrian's Wa'.

Whit aboot the burdz?
38

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 05/07/2008 09:06:03
#40 Richard Taylor:
"the Scottish Govt will have the final say. "
You could not be more wrong. Firstly, there is no such thing as "the Scottish government". There is only one government in the UK and it is located at the Mother of Parliaments in Westminster. What we have in Scotland is a devolved regional UK administration with limited powers of administration.

Scotland is not a state; it has no sovereign territory, no army, navy or airforce, no independent currency. The executive is allowed to make legislation on a limited number of devolved issues such as health and education - but on the big issues of State: taxation, foreign policy, defence - it hsa no powers. Ergo, there is no Scottish government; sovereigh states with defined territories, law-making power and defence forces - they have governments. The words 'Scottish Government' are PR spin for the SNP devolved, minority administration.

Now, why will the devolved Scottish Executive not have the final world on this housing scheme? The coastal area in question is a designated SSSI - under UK Law. Sites of Special Scientific Interest cannot just be built on at the whim of local councils, nor even of devolved administrations. If Salmond gives the go-ahead for this he will find himself in the European Court over the environmental legal case - and European Law transcends British law. Non-starter.
39

dianne13 ,

aberdeenshie 05/07/2008 09:10:08
#45
thats probably next on his list!
Lets face it, it's old, dirty and a bit of a mess- the Donald could build a bonny new one with the name 'Trump' on top of it in huge solid gold letters that can be seen from the moon!



40

PJ Walker,

East Lothian 05/07/2008 09:12:11
They could be doing Trump and his backers a favour.
Has everyone forgotten we're in the midst of one of the worst credit crunches in recent memory?
With Loch Lomond GC now slipping into receivership (again) and new luxury clubs like the Renaissance struggling to find anyone willing to put down £50K as a debenture, big D may get out of this one unscathed.
Scotland has more than enough high-end golf courses
41

11+failed,

the pans 05/07/2008 09:16:11
Seems this thread has descended into petty squabbling by the anti anything brigade.
By the end of the year all the posturing and posing should be over Trump will be able to get on with this super, if unnecessarily delayed, project.
42

brownlie,

05/07/2008 09:22:37
It is interesting to see the amount of concern for a hitherto unknown, and unvisited, stretch of coast.

I did not see the same amount of concern regarding the devastation of miles of Lewis peatland, and the devastation of the environment in Amec's plans for wind-farms in Lewis.

Of course, a brash American millionaire was not involved and one of Amec's directors is Brian Wilson, an ex-Labour minister.
43

C. RAB.BIT,

Dunfermline 05/07/2008 09:27:44
4 GRAHAM EDINBURGH

Spot on Scotland has miles of coast,so why not build it somewhere else.How about on the Forth with views of the bridges there is space between the rusting nuclear submarines and the sewage works or Dunbar with its cement works and power station.There are many more sites of this outstanding beauty to choose from so why a site which is an involves an SSSI. Secondly you do not build championship golf courses you build golf courses and hope they are good enough for someone to want to play a championship on.
44

brownlie,

05/07/2008 09:48:21
46 Tweedmouth

Who signed the agreement that means European Law transcends British Law and, in your opinion, is that to Scotland's benefit?
45

AntiPCman,

05/07/2008 10:04:16
The paper presented at the ISC planning committee was without precedent. The first 22 pages said No as against a raft of policies. The 23rd page said Yes because of the mitigating circumstances of economic development. The applicant with a single house in the countryside and a shed for his business is turned down regularly with the same mitigation but the Trump one is not - there is no differences in policy.
One, therefore, has to ask why. It is because it is an important magnet for future investment for the N.East as oil and gas recedes but it is not consistent planning and should be recognised that it is not fair to diminish the single applicant when he has a strong case because in fact he/she is far more sustainable in the long term.
Trump did not follow the normal and recognised pattern in this application - he was favoured - I am not condemning that but the reaction to Martin Ford was not proportional as he was following policy.
The economic argument is flawed in terms of viability without the private housing and the 1400 jobs created is a misnomer when the N.East has the lowest unemployment in Scotland - 0.7%. N o local people will be employed - it will be foreigh transient works.
If Trump wins and I think he will, I am not sure that it will go ahead in the financial situation the world is in. Trump will blame delays and walk away.
46

Unimpressed one,

05/07/2008 10:05:35
'A spokesman for the organisations said: "All we want now is for ministers to consider what is best for Scotland, not simply for the applicant, and to stand by their repeatedly stated strategic goals of delivering sustainable economic growth that puts this country's environment at its core.'

But when the chips are down, all sensible people will put the economy before the environment every time.
47

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/07/2008 10:06:45
Colin Boyd demonstrates well how former Lord Advocates can be stupid as well.

Trumpty's scheme is just environment destroying destroying, hideously disneyesque, crass, cheap rubbish (like all his other tasteless edifices).

Win or lose the inquiry environmentalists everywhere will join forces to waste as much of Trumpty's time and money until he just gives up and moves on.
48

Determination and Commitment,

Aberdeen 05/07/2008 10:14:14
Well said 50, how many other wind farm or eco friendly developments become a blot on the fabulous Scottish enviroment.

As for those who say that the enviromental impact will last for ever. I don't see global warming slowing down, so sometime in the future maybe those areas of SSSI will be underwater and you will complain that the government failed to do something about it.

If you let Trump build his course, surely he will invest money in protecting it from rising sea levels and in doing so save the precious SSSI.
49

Astarte,

Giffnock 05/07/2008 10:14:29
..who will rid us of this troublesome priest?
50

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/07/2008 10:16:05
#56 Exactly how will Trumpty "protect" the SSSI from rising sea levels when, if given permission, he would have already destroyed it?
51

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 05/07/2008 10:28:49
Night night Beth! Sweet (Trump) dreams!
52

Douglas,

Bathgate 05/07/2008 10:33:46
With potential 'luxury accomodation' lying derelict in St Andrews, the home of golf, what makes enthusiasts for the Trump project believe that their course will attract sufficient numbers of wealthy golfers to make it viable?
Are we sure that it's not some dinner party boast that's now taken on a life of it's own so Mr T will not lose face?
53

Balliol II,

Dunbar 05/07/2008 10:38:05
Your report says the major objectors were the RSPB Scotland and the Scottish Wildlife Trust. Were SNH objecting and if not why not? SNH's predecessor the Nature Conservancy were responsible for the original designation as an SSSI (Site of Special Scientific Interest) so SNH should be arguing for its continued protection. Have they, did they?
54

A Crofter,

Western Isles 05/07/2008 10:44:42
Good Morning, Trumplickers!

Now we have m'Lord Boyd joining in the brown-nosing - how much did Golffinger bung him to spout such palpable drivel?

BTW, Brownlie, you forgot to mention former trade minister Richard Caborn MP, who now also lobbies for Amec at £75K a year. The main difference between the rejected Lewis windfarm and Trumpland is that one might have done something to reduce global carbon emissions, whilst the latter would have entirely the opposite effect. The fact that EU legislation scuppered Amec just proves that true independence for Scotland is an unachievable myth.
55

Toast,

05/07/2008 10:49:19
Given Trumps precarious finances this resort will not happen as outlined,the time shares will be built and all the highly profitable pieces,but due to the credit squeeze the eco friendly proposals will be unsustainable.
56

Senga Jean,

05/07/2008 10:58:11
There is a New Clearance Culture in Scotland. Its endeavour is to sustain the empty Straths and Bens of the last clearance. The economics are not ostensibly those of greed but an assertion of supposed moral superiority. I am better at saving the planet than you? The reality in a water rich environment is that golf courses save the planet and all its little creatures much better than the simple abandonment to erosion and despoilment by the uncaring. What is the anti's real agenda? The welfare of ordinary working folk it ain't
57

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/07/2008 11:02:21
#64 "What is the anti's real agenda? The welfare of ordinary working folk it ain't"

This will be the "welfare" of the cheap immigrant workers (both legal and illegal) brought in to toil in the new Trumpty Towers that you're so concerned about will it?
58

overton,

balmedie 05/07/2008 11:02:41
The sooner we have the go ahead for this opportunity the sooner we can put the embarrassing antics of the (soon to disappear of the face of the earth) idiot Lib Dems behind us.
It is good to note that Nicol Stephen resigned after he belated realised how he was used by the minority of local objectors.
59

Gunn,

05/07/2008 11:36:45
Some observations:

1 This is NOT just a concern for those in Scotland.

a) It has much wider implications since what happens here could set a precedence that might affect anywhere in the UK.
b) Anything that is an SSSI "belongs" to a much wider population than those who live near or on it - it belongs to the entire nation and, dare I say, beyond even the UK borders because it is of ... special scientific interest! If this is allowed, what price all the other very special SSSIs in the UK? Will they be bull-dozed too just because of the "economic benefits"?

2 We have enjoyed the benefits of this wonderful example of Nature, the value of which surpasses money. Economic/financial interests are not "everything". Money is not everything. Quality of Life is everything and it does not depend on money. We have done without this monstrosity up until now and I dare say we can do without it for another few hundred years.
60

,

05/07/2008 12:00:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
61

Tom Cambeul,,

USA 05/07/2008 12:03:07
I plan to arrive in Scotland on Monday and do hope to see the Aberdeenshire coast once more, before the trump bulldozers flatten the landscape. Then "ole wavy wig" will want a knighthood.
62

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/07/2008 12:32:21
If it's a debate between improving the lot of the local people and improving the lot of the local lichens, I'm with the people.
63

The Ghost of Sir William Arrol,

The Ghost of Sir William Arrol 05/07/2008 12:41:19
I think Trump will get his fingers burned on this one if it goes ahead. Aviation, as a result of diminishing oil supplies and ever increasing prices, will become a thing of the past. There will be few tourists!
64

Buttress,

05/07/2008 13:26:09
66 Overton - given that he says his reasons had nothing to do with this, after Trump made bizarre claims yesterday, why do you say this? Have you discussed it with him personally? Or is this more fairy tales?
65

Mac Vicar,

Nantucket MA, USA 05/07/2008 14:12:42
There is no need to cave in to Trump’s endeavours all of which I’m certain have nothing to do with anything but his own personal greed and huge ego. Look at the time and money he wasted battling a female celebrity for her not too favourable comments about his hair. That sort of individual and his business interests are best left in New York where they are used to financial bullying tactics not in Scotland.
66

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/07/2008 14:38:32
#69 I can assure you Neil that us "eco-fascist parasites" won't be going anywhere. We will draw this out for years and years until Trumpty gets so sick of us wasting his time and his bank's money that he moves on. Simple fact.
67

zigzag,

05/07/2008 15:05:14
Lord Boyd said: "I accept that the development will have significant adverse effects on the qualities for which the area has been designated but I submit that these are clearly outweighed by economic benefits of national importance."

Looks like The Parcels of Rogues are still in the Nation.
Economics benefits outweigh? Now that,s a novel thought. In the name of the american dollar all will be well in the world and gods' heaven, it might also make enough moolah for the Donald to afford a more decent hair piece.
My question is what happens to St Andrews and Carnoustie in future when its time to pick a course for any PGA Championship games? Will the american Donald carry more weight and prevail for all future PGA venues, no questions asked. I think so but then thats just me.
68

Beth Boyle,

NY 05/07/2008 15:07:16
#42 This I understand well and it worries me. Salmond has been courting America's far right.
69

ScotLJM,

Michigan 05/07/2008 15:20:02
#72 The ghost.....I would not bet that the economy will be the demise of Trump's playground, you underestimate how many super rich folks there are in this world. They will still be flying in on their private jets, fuel costs no issue.

A case in point, I worked for a billionaire shopping mall developer, who among other things, owned Sotheby's in London. Well, he went to prison for shady dealings, and while he was there, the local airport extended their runway to accommodate the big corporate jets of his business visitors.

THEY live in a different world than we peasants.
70

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/07/2008 15:25:14
#79 But there are many more of "we peasants" so if we get together we can make their lives a living hell.

Most billionairres don't actually have much cold cash to their name (Trumpty only has a small "lottery win" worth of his own cash to invest) - they just have huge bank loans. So us environmentalists will turn the pressure on their lenders to make their pips squeak.
71

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/07/2008 15:26:17
I don't get it. Why is there so much antipathy and resentment towards a plan that will bring increased investment, jobs and other economic benefits into an area that badly needs them?
72

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/07/2008 15:31:02
#81 Because Trumpty has a case history of leaving his business partners and projects bankrupted and he cares not a jot for the environment - just his personal wallet.

In Trumpty's little head everything that makes Scotland worth keeping and visiting is just there for him to pimp.

Jobs? Don't make me laugh. It would be built by cheap legal and illegal immigrant labour and staffed by the same. Cash cash cash. You'll see one real Scottish job if you are very very lucky.
73

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/07/2008 15:37:00
#82, even one is better than none! There seems to be so much hatred and emotion about this man, and so little calm and objective analysis of his proposal. Doesn't Scotland need more investment, more jobs, and a better future for its people in the areas in which they live?
74

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/07/2008 15:43:43
#83 Absolutely we need real jobs but concreting over Scotland's best natural assets to offer up just another tasteless American disneyesque landscape is not the way to do it.

When every tourist coming here tells you how much they love and cherish Scotland's environment, culture and history then why not listen to them? Why tear it all up and offer a Trmp Tower artificial mess instead? (And I haven't even given the moral argument yet about leaving our children a decent natural environment).
75

mollyfurie,

California 05/07/2008 15:45:46
Golf courses good for the environment? Well maybe in Scotland, with all the rain, but here in the Southwest, they are huge water wasters, and heavy pesticide and herbicide users. In Hawaii, it is dangers to golf in hot weather - the chemicals have caused people to lose consciousness.

But you know that none of this is about golf. And it certainly isn't about providing good jobs or economic development for Scotland. It's about taking protected, public land and providing luxury accommodations for the very rich.
76

Susan Caroline Periano,

Pottstown, PA USA 05/07/2008 15:51:37
The planning for the golf course will be in partnership with environmental leadership, so no beauty will be lost. The economic advantages for Scotland far outweigh maintaining the wilderness. As for setting a precedent for SSSI and future applications elsewhere, there will have to be an added bottom line to keep this proposal unique to disalow copycatting. Mr. Trump maintains all his properties impeccably. With his governance and insistence on perfection, this will be a jewel for Scotland, not an aberation.
77

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/07/2008 16:05:36
#84, > When every tourist coming here tells you how much they love and cherish Scotland's environment, culture and history then why not listen to them? <

Are Menie Links much visited by tourists from abroad? I'd hardly have described them as one of Scotland's leading tourist attractions.
78

Beth Boyle,

NY 05/07/2008 16:33:06
The Silly Trump on Donald Trump on International Relations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC42lWzsbv8&feature=related
79

W Smith,

Middle East 05/07/2008 17:08:32
#86
Well said.

The anti-Trump seem to forget these two following projects;

1) Aviemore - what a tacky mess. Start with the prison ...I mean Stakis Hotel. Looks like Pyongyang, North Korean architecture.

2) On to Dundee waterfront. Same built on the cheap Stakis Hotel.

Surprise surprise, same concrete structure, exact same design as Aviemore - built with 'subsidies'.

On to the public swimming pool - another concrete box structure.

On to the 'radical design' of the Apex Hotel. For 'radical' read rectangular box like structure.

On to.....wait for it..... Tescos built right on one of the most scenic spots of any city in the UK.

A RIGHT FRIGGIN MESS.

I doubt if Donald Trump could trump the Dundee Labour Pary's mess at Dundee's waterfront.

ITS CRIMINAL.
80

W Smith,

Middle East 05/07/2008 17:27:03
I think Colin Boyd should take photos of Dundee's waterfront, including arial photos, and ask his opponents "What the **** do you call this then, eh?"
81

Singlepoint,

Fife 05/07/2008 17:49:10
It is true that Scotland needs investment and indeed facility for any kind of leisure activity always works in any free, economically sound society, but it does not need such as Donald wants to provide. What Donald wholly wants is not shown but what can be gathered is that he primarily needs ownership of the coast. If Donald is successful then down the line he will seek to build a marina and deep moorings which as things are he knows he cannot get but likely will if he first establishes a successful and grand business ‘in the national interest’. If today the powers that be refuse him access to the coast or otherwise give him the dunes but make it clear that he will never get permission to own a ‘port’ then he will be off back to his real home with his true colours in full view.
82

The Tin Man,

Over the McRainbow 05/07/2008 17:50:26
Dear, oh dear.... an entire Trumpton thread without anyone spouting virtriolic hatred towards Mr Ford. What's wrong with you all? According to many previous posters Mr Ford was To Blame for Everything (whatever Everything was). That, and he probably eats yoghurt, which apparently is Bad.
83

Gunn,

05/07/2008 18:24:53
Mikko, It's no use arguing. Urban Gorilla is another affected by Money Disorder, perhaps another Thatcher Child of the 1980's, one more who values people and places by the amount of £££/$$$ is their/its pocket. People as these cannot appreciate the value and pleasure that can be found in a field of grass unless it's been cut down like a skin head, been rid of all wild flowers (that's "weeds" to you, Urban G), no mole hills and has white balls running over it towards little holes with flags sticking out of them, which won't be rabbit burrows. The pleasures of Nature are infinitely richer than a golf course - you know it, I know it, Urban Gorillas and other parasites that feed off the destruction of the environment just don't get it.
84

McGinty,

05/07/2008 18:30:34
'it has resulted, in my submission, in an unprecedented level of scrutiny for an application' About time, but even so, maybe not enough. If there's any consistency, let's hope the same starts to happen to areas prone to flooding, Tesco's etc. Also what kind of nation gives easy permission for carbuncles yet restoration, heritage and social projects get walloped. If Trump hadn't behaved like such an arrogant git right through this, he would have had more support and had his application dealt with quicker.
85

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/07/2008 18:34:53
#93, I'm more interested in people and their families than I am in preserving every field of grass. Better a Scotland where young people can find work than one in which people have to move away from where they were born and brought up if they want to make a living. But you're probably the sort of person who thinks the Highlands were greatly improved by the Clearances!
86

Beth Boyle,

NY 05/07/2008 18:53:15
Urban Guerrilla was trained by George W. Bush and is a Scottish operative for the Bush administration in the UK.
87

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 05/07/2008 18:55:00
#46 Tweedmouth said, "If Salmond gives the go-ahead for this he will find himself in the European Court over the environmental legal case."

Unfortunately that is not the case. As you correctly state, the coastal area in question is a Site of Special Scientific Interest, designated under UK legislation. It is NOT a European Site (such as a Special Conservation Area or a Special Protection Area for wild birds). Thus the European Court has no obvious locus in this case. If the area was a European Site, Trump wouldn't stand a chance, but protection for SSSIs is relatively weak.
88

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/07/2008 19:07:29
#96, don't you want young people to have the chance of employment and a decent future in the area where they grew up?
89

E300,

05/07/2008 19:27:17
Seems the average number of American visitors to the Menie Dunes in the three years before Trump's involvement was zero. The number of University geology field group visits to Menie other than from Aberdeen was also zilch.
90

Richard Taylor,

05/07/2008 19:31:21
Good God...Mikko, Beth & Ford chaining themselves to the nearest sand dune! That'll scare the gulls!!!
:-O

Besides, the dunes hopefully will whisk them miles to the north & out of earshot! ;-)
91

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 05/07/2008 20:40:05
46 Tweedmouthy

"The Scottish Government" - a term which has a general consensus in Holyrood amongst most MSPs - WILL DEFINITELY have the final say, no matter your meaningless rhetoric.
92

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 05/07/2008 20:41:51
91 Singlepoint

A PORT??
What are you talking about? Please make yourself aware of the facts before blurbing nonsense.
93

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 05/07/2008 20:45:43
5 Blue Tooner

A bit less than Turnberry and Muirfield which are not the 'world's greatest golf courses.'
94

jerrymanders,

05/07/2008 20:57:47
99

How many American tourists have ventured into the Brazilian Rain Forest, the Taiga, the Antarctic, etc? I doubt they could point them out on a map.
95

Senga Jean,

05/07/2008 20:59:27
For people who cuddle up to cuddly animals the environmentalist on this blog sound brutal. A golf course or two in an are rich in...... water would be a boon to the environment.
96

jerrymanders,

05/07/2008 21:00:22
#103

Jack Nicklaus may disagree with your assessment of Muirfield, but you obviously know better.
97

Singlepoint,

Fife 05/07/2008 22:16:06
#102 Andrew BOD

I doubt if you would comprehend what is or is not nonsense and which besides I did not say port but ‘port’. It will always be the case that in any matter I comment upon I will know something that you do not. I note that your apparently solely iconoclastic retorts are too concise to be understood which perhaps gives the measure of your understandings in any event. Indeed, you remind me of those who hide at the back of the riot and throw stones. In fairness, I’m prepared to accept that you must know more words than you let on albeit I so far cannot tell if you can use them. For clarity, which I gather you’ll need, if you simply say I am talking nonsense then it could just as well be said, “not I but you”: d’you see?
98

Billy Boy,

Sherman Oaks California 05/07/2008 22:57:57
First, just because some of us live elsewhere does not mean we aren't Scots. We're just away for a wee while! Trump is a businessman and a pretty ruthless one at that. Developers like him rarely risk their own money, they risk that of others. It should be obvious to all, that with the current uncertainty, -not only in the International economy, but in the potential for an escalation of the present conflicts- that only a fool would invest in such a fantasy as a "luxury resort". THE DONALD IS NO FOOL. For goodness sake, we are running out of food, water, fresh air and energy. To contemplate such is a plan is irresponsible. We must have all forgotten why we had so many ruined and deserted Castles around our isles?
99

dianne12,

Aberdeenshire 05/07/2008 23:14:21
95
It's interesting how you separate man from his environment - as though we are in some way independent of it. The prevention of this 'golf' development is important, not only because of the blatent destruction it will cause, but also because it's symbolic of what is wrong with society, and, in part, the reason that we are in such a mess.
The misuse of natural resources in the pursuit of economic growth has caused our current problems.
In economic terms (if you insist on this argument), the enviromnent can be considered as 'capital' and as such connot be used as 'income' Continuing to deplete the capital will result in a deficit.....but there will be no bailing us out of this one. So, if we really want to consider future generations then we have to protect our natural capital. It is, after all, the source of all our resources. Do you really think the Trump development represents good use of natural capital?
100

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 05/07/2008 23:24:07
107 Singlepoint

If you had commented on any of the previous hundred or so threads on Trump in the last seven months you would know that I have expressed myself fully on this issue. You would have also been able to find out more information about the planned development, the twists and turns along the way, and the excellent links giving people like you and me valuable objective information on which to comment, e.g. the Aberdeenshire Council Planning Application.

My "retorts" are merely exasparated outbursts aimed at some people who have not previously contributed, but who seem to know exactly what should be done or what will happen in the future. You are one of those.

As to the "nonsense" you speak, you may be right, I've not elaborated. Pray tell how you know what Donald really wants? He has already owned this land for three years, and if you knew the land, you'd know that a "port" would be physically out of the question. Unless, of course, he is developing a la Dubai-style, and spending multiple billions, which he is not.
101

ScotLJM,

Michigan 05/07/2008 23:32:39
#80, Mikko, #79 again, so there is no misunderstanding, I am all for the Trump Project even if I am not too favourable of the rich, rich. I do believe, as most do, that this development is a good thing, for Scotland and the people.

Say, I was so taken up with the luxo jets coming into Dyce, well the 737 I last came in on had no problem, so runways should be long enough. Hope they can handle the extra traffic though, Hmmm, better get more controllers..... ANYWAY, I totally forgot to mention the luxo YACHTS that will arrive! Yes sir! anchored right off Balmedie, unless a storm brews, they will not want to berth in the harbour, too much oil and fish smells. Not to worry, they will helicopter in for the golf. Wow! just imagine, Aberdeen looking like Monte Carlo!
You guys will be on the map for sure. I might even come back! Nah, you won't want me anyway, Im too Americanized now.
102

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 05/07/2008 23:40:08
108 Billy Boy

You say:

"We must have all forgotten why we had so many ruined and deserted Castles around our isles?"

This is exactly why we need to invest when the opportunity presents itself.

People have left much of the remoter areas of Scotland because of lack of employment. Once there was work, then it disappeared and was replaced with nothing. So people move where there is employment, and those areas become barren. And many of them are unnaturally barren at that.

The population of NE Scotland has increased by 50% in the last 35 years, mainly due to the oil industry. I want my children to have the opportunity or option of living here in the future, and for that to happen there has to be a diversification of industry. Trump is only a small part of that, but if we refuse this development, we put up the shutters to more ethical investors of the future.

I don't want my part of Scotland to end up like parts of the Highlands and Islands where local kids have permanently moved to the Central Belt because of lack of employment and where the houses and crofts left over are bought up by second homeowners or retirees.

103

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 06/07/2008 00:22:17
And this, from the Herald:
"Donald Trump's lawyer yesterday admitted the tycoon's planned £1bn golf resort would have "significant adverse effects" on the environment."
This must be a last roll of the dice. What they really mean is, "ok we're going to f@ck the enviroment, but think of all the money we'll make! Come on Scotland we kow how narrow minded and greedy you are, lets us go for this and really make a bundle"
I say let it go ahead, but the SSSI MUST be left well alone and it must comform to all the planning laws, Trump cannot be allowed to have his way just becaiuse it's him.
104

Singlepoint,

Fife 06/07/2008 00:56:49
#110 Andrew BOD

As far as I am aware there have been three Scotsman threads concerning Donald’s proposed development and I have posted on all whereas your name has appeared only here. I did not say that I knew what Donald wants and indeed nobody but he knows what he wants. Whereas Donald indeed owns ‘the land’ he cannot from it alone develop the coast as he can in the USA. I know nothing of golf but I can gather from such facts that you say I do not have that ‘the dunes’ are not necessary for his development but yet he is prepared to walk away if he is not allowed to include them in his plans and that means he must have an ulterior or at least another motive for wanting them. A sensible businessman who genuinely wanted to help the area would not have behaved so but would have adapted. My therefore conclusion is that Donald’s plans covertly included development of the coast and that he was made aware his developing so would have a better chance of success after a successful development of golf course and etc was established, that success being enough to overcome that the place was of special scientific interest. Once a successful development is apparent then the previously covert plans will come forward. Whether or not there is truth in it is of no matter today since it will not be known until the time. If today you want to know then I therefore say, as I did, that if Donald was today soundly made aware that no matter what he will never be allowed to develop the coast then he will be off like a shot. That is the single point I made on this thread and for it I do not need to have read your previous posts or have access to such facts as you hold dear but which nevertheless do not answer any questions not least because, as said, nobody but Donald knows what he is up to. Indeed, Donald is bound to be deceitful and thus pertinent facts would be hard to come by. Finally, a ‘port’ is a place designated for the mooring of sea-going craft and can indeed be place
105

Singlepoint,

Fife 06/07/2008 00:57:20
Finally, a ‘port’ is a place designated for the mooring of sea-going craft and can indeed be placed where you say it cannot.
106

Gunn,

06/07/2008 01:00:45
Urban Gorilla, my family were in the heart of the Clearances, and I don't suppose for a moment that my relatives of then would be happy that some rich Lords should wish to destroy some of the finest nature in the UK for the sake of the modern Lord's pleasure. You surely don't for a moment think these people give a haggis for the plight of the Scots any more than those who cleared our people from their lands, do you?
107

Billy Boy,

Sherman Oaks California 06/07/2008 02:52:00
#112 Hello Andrew; The point about the castles was that they were built by egocentrics just like Trump and they perished because they were an affront to those who could only imagine the lifestyle that the occupants lived. People love Scotland beacause of what it is, mainly unspoilt and beautiful. The world is crowded with luxury golf resorts -many of which I have played! Incidentally they usually prosper in warm locations with a "minimal" ammount of rainfall, the pampered will not play in the rain or cold! We have natural resources that many countries would envy such as fertile soil and fresh water. We need use our Scottish "thriftyness" read, efficiency, in order to make better use of them. We have to make recycling a industry and plan for the shortages that will soon be upon us. We can use the fruits of our labour to provide, not only for ourselves, but to sell to others who aren't as lucky. Healthy organic food -milk & produce is essential. We need to shed much of the modern lifestyle by walking & biking as opposed to driving. Every house should grow at least some of it's own consumeables, in short, return to a more natural, healthy, stressfree and sustainable lifestyle. From this I hope you will gather that my belief is WE DO NOT NEED CASTLES OR LUXURY DEVLOPMENTS! We can prepare and embrace this scenario or it will be thrust upon us.
108

Beth Boyle,

NY 06/07/2008 07:05:47
Bravo Billy Boy you said it well!
109

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 06/07/2008 09:07:09
Billy boy, well said that man!
110

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 06/07/2008 09:27:57
From the Telegraph

Golf 'ruining our green and pleasant land'
By Patrick Sawyer
The spread of golf courses threatens Britain's traditional landscapes, a report from the leading conservation authority will warn this week.

Have |Your Say: Should golf development be restricted?


Grounds for concern: Rudding Park as it used to be
before it was converted into a golf course


The sport's growing popularity has led to dozens of important parks being turned into 18-hole courses, leading to what English Heritage claims is "irreversible damage to the historic environment".

The warning comes as the organisation prepares to launch the first comprehensive register of the country's neglected historic treasures this week.

Its "Heritage at Risk" report will identify listed buildings, monuments, churches, battlefields and even shipwrecks that it believes are in jeopardy, and discuss what can be done to preserve them.

The survey, the first document of its kind to include parks, gardens and landscapes, will warn that golf courses are frequently being imposed on the landscape in an "alien and insensitive" way.

advertisement
English Heritage found that:

116 historically important parks in the South East alone have been converted into golf courses since the 1980s
Golf course developments are damaging scheduled monuments, archaeological remains and the setting of listed buildings
The gardens and landscape of stately homes and country houses are particularly at risk.
The warning comes amid the row over a plan by the American billionaire Donald Trump to build a £1 billion golf resort on one of the most unspoilt stretches of Scottish coastline. This are the subject of a planning inquiry.

English Heritage says that some settings can never be suited to the intensive building and landscaping necessary to build fairways, tees, bunkers and clubhouses.

Among the examples given is Rudding Park, near Harrogate. The park and gardens were created in 1788
111

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 06/07/2008 09:29:37

Among the examples given is Rudding Park, near Harrogate. The park and gardens were created in 1788, when Lord Loughborough commissioned Humphry Repton to improve the grounds around his house.

It is now covered by an 18 hole course, a floodlit driving range, practice holes, holiday homes and camping pitches. A 19th-century walled garden was destroyed to make way for chalets.

"More and more facilities have been added to what is a registered historic park," said English Heritage's senior landscape adviser, Jenifer White. "It's a case of over-intensive development."

The organisation has compiled a separate report, "Golf in Historic Parks and Landscapes", which recognises that golf is one of Britain's most popular participation sports and sets out ways new courses can be built with minimum damage to their surroundings, including guidelines for architects and developers.

These include minimising earth movement, designing bunkers, signs and paths to have as little impact as possible, while conserving trees and restoring water features.


Rudding Park is now covered by an 18-hole course, a floodlit driving range, practice holes, holiday homes and camping pitches


English Heritage also criticises the first of two golf courses at 18th-century Brocket Hall, in Hertfordshire, as "an alien landscape" compared with the later course, designed by Donald Steel, which "weaves its way through woodland and integrates with the historic design" of the building.

But Peter Banks, managing director of Rudding Park, said parks and gardens had to balance conservation with raising money to pay for it through commercial development.

"English Heritage has praised the landscaping of our 18-hole course," he said. "Heritage assets don't maintain themselves. We employ 15 men to look after the park grounds and we have to raise the revenue for them to do that."

"Heritage at Risk", to be published on Tuesday, includes an assessment of all 19,711 of the country's sched
112

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 06/07/2008 09:30:26

"Heritage at Risk", to be published on Tuesday, includes an assessment of all 19,711 of the country's scheduled monuments, all 1,595 registered historic parks, gardens and landscapes, all 43 registered battlefields and all 45 protected shipwrecks.

Among the sites in greatest peril is Birkrigg stone circle in Cumbria, which dates from between 1700 and 1400BC. Known as the Druid's Circle, it overlooks Morecambe Bay. The 31 stones are under threat from encroaching bracken and paint-spraying vandals.

Also at risk is the Salcombe Cannon Site in Devon, where a shipwreck yielded a treasure trove of gold coins now held at the British Museum. Last year the site was severely damaged by a fishing vessel.

Simon Thurley, chief executive of English Heritage, said: "If we don't act, these things won't be here for our grandchildren."

113

Prudence,

Scotland 06/07/2008 10:03:24
Well, this is not only going to be Scotland's pride and joy but the jewel in the crown of UK golf. Its going to be "Little San Diego" plonked in the middle of windswept, shifting dunes north of Aberdeen with ocean views of the North sea ( on harr-free days ) It will not quite be able to compete with California's white sands , warm sea , 5" rainfall , or average temperature of 75 degrees; but for entertainment and amusement , non golfers will get the chance to watch cod and haddock going round and round in Macduff's aquarium rather than dolphins and orcas in San Diego's Seaworld. An ersatz copy of San Diego's very very famous Hotel del Coronado ( "Some Like it Hot " Fame ) will grace Menie's dunes forever ( excepting Marlyn will no be there )but the entrance gatehouses will be a posh way for Scots to carry on the quaint tradition of running the gauntlet over windswept tees for a bracing dip in Northern waters. The famous Torrey pine will struggle a wee bit to grow on Menie dunes but a suitable replacement is the lodgepole pine to provide privacy for villa owners. If they don't like it , there always a condominium to hide away in. Eat your heart out Eastenders , River city ,and Coronation Sreet; "Menie Man ", the first ever real live soap is on its way.
114

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 06/07/2008 14:07:14
#116, you, like the landlords who carried out the Clearances, obviously don't give a stuff for the people who actually live in the area, and who want to carry on living there, find jobs there and bring up their families there.

You obviously prefer an empty, barren Scotland without people to a living, flourishing one. Just like the landlords at the time of the Clearances.

Shame on you.
115

Prudence,

Scotland 06/07/2008 15:34:24
There's no tree that can survive Menie to act as 50ft privacy barriers for the 36 golf villas,500 homes,1000 timeshare condos, 450 room hotel , as per www.trumpscotland.com. If Mr Trump knows that there is , Forestry Commission GB would love to hear about it. Shame about the skylark , though.
116

Beyond1635,

Canada 06/07/2008 15:39:18
Enlighten me; I've never been to this area of Scotland. Shifting sand - is that conducive to golf? And if you bulldoze and fill in to make the holes stable so the score can be fairly tallied, aren't you losing the beauty that attracted you in the first place (check out Florida coastline)?

The very rich will go where they want when they want, regardless of economic climate.

Having lived and worked in tourist/golf areas, I can say for a fact that except for a very few, the jobs are seasonal, low paying, and count on government subsidies in the off season. I'm sure Mr. Trump is well aware of that last reality.
117

Prudence,

Scotland 06/07/2008 15:48:28
Mistaken website . Its www.trumpgolfscotland.com. Sorry ,folks , forgot about the word "golf".

118

Prudence,

Scotland 06/07/2008 16:43:23
#127 Further north along the coast , toward the inner Moray Firth a whole village ( Findhorn) was totally covered long ago by shifting sand , blown about by powerful winds and that was in a more sheltered area than Menie. Marram grass or beach grass was planted to colonise and stabalise the dunes, and after pine trees. The nearer to the sea the smaller , spindlier and bent trees become. It is a big struggle for pines to grow to full maturity in the North East of Scotland , but the Culbin Forest opposite today's Findhorn has been a great success.Developed by Nature and built by the hands of a generation of Scots 70 years ago, it is now a vast communal recreational area of forest for birders , cyclists , walkers and a haven for wildlife. "Hotel del Coronado , Menie " is another step on the way to the Stepfordisation of Scotland. It gives me the creeps , I'm afraid.
119

Gunn,

06/07/2008 22:05:28
#124 On the contrary, Gorilla, I want a Scotland that can provide employment for whoever wants to live in the fine country. But I also want them to live in a country that is also has a rich environment which they and their descendants they may enjoy. After all, what point is there in feathering the nest if you then defecate in it?
120

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 06/07/2008 23:30:39
114 Singlepoint

Have a look down the right hand side of the webpage and you'll see some of the links to Trump. They are only the tip of the iceberg. (I've been on holiday for the past week so haven't been able to comment on the most recent threads.)

I respect everybody's view, but reading your paragraph, you seem to only know parts of the whole story.

Building on 10% of the SSSI will give the course a truly world-class perspective, and Trump has stated that on many occasions. If not allowed to build on that part, he will not be able to give the course such a distinction, and would not be championship quality. Martin Hawtree, the course designer and with connections to St Andrews, has also stated this fact. He is raising the money for the development and he has already bought the land, so he is perfectly entitled to walk away if he wishes. The bottom line is, if he cannot build something world-class, he won't build it at all.

He doesn't own the beach, which stretches from the River Don to the River Ythan, so won't be able to build a 'port'.

For more info, here's a link to the application:

http://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/planning/apps/detail.asp?ref_no=APP/2006/4605
121

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 06/07/2008 23:44:20
117 Billy Boy

My point still rings true. Those deserted castles you speak about are generally in areas where the population have deserted the area, i.e. the Highlands and Islands. Most of the castles in the North East of Scotland are lived in or exhibited to the public. That's because the population hasn't deserted the area. Long may they continue.

As far as your other aspirations are concerned, I take it you would also apply them to Los Angeles, development capital of the world. That's where Sherman Oaks is isn't it? In the Valley?
122

didi08,

Germany 07/07/2008 06:53:26
I wouldn't want to sacrifice the Dunes for a job cleaning the toilets. Most of these service jobs would bring an influx of eastern european workers to the Aberdeen area if they are not already there. On a recent trip to Scotland I saw that many hotels and restaurants are staffed by immigrant workers. Personally I would love to come back to Scotland but not for a minimum wage seasonal service job! Can't Scotland do better thatn having to be bought by Trump! I plan to visit the Dunes this summer in case it is the last time to see the unspoilt coastline!
123

overton,

balmedie 07/07/2008 07:23:21
There was a rumour floating about the Inquiry last week that the reason Martin Ford cycles 'everywhere' is not because of his mobile, dynamic green credentials but because he has failed his driving test seventeen times!

Some cruel and heartless people might suggest that this is because he is totally useless.

I personally would suggest that the reason he has failed so many times is because he is incapable of listening or taking advice even from a driving instructor!
124

Prudence,

Scotland 07/07/2008 07:32:09
Well , if its economy and finances that matter , there are two items missing in this project. One is a casino and there's no mention of a swimming pool.If the area is to be developed for residential rather than seasonal use , indoor recreational facilities need to be provided for long winter months of darkness. You see , the fact that the land was bought on the assumption that it was going to be a " buffer" zone was misleading . It is what is not said that arouses suspicion as to the real motives. Politics and business stand shoulder to shoulder admirably in this respect.
125

Alexander Grey,

England 07/07/2008 12:11:00
Donald Trump is applying for almost 1,000 timeshare apartments in his proposed development.

His prospects of selling all these as timeshare within the next 20 years are nil.

Timeshare in Europe is in decline. Sales are only a fraction of the 1990’s levels; owner numbers are about 10% down on 2000 numbers and resorts are closing at a rate of one or two a month.

The most active seller in Europe only achieves 1,000 sales per year – Trump has to make about 35,000 sales to fill his planned 1,000 units. If the industry continues it’s decline it could take him 50 years to achieve the 70% sell-out considered necessary for viability.

I doubt if Trump would consider this timescale commercially acceptable !

My suspicion is that Trump is using the timeshare argument to persuade planners that there will be a high level of “out of season” tourism and Trump will apply for change of use at some convenient time in the future.
126

Blue Tooner,

Aberdeenshire 07/07/2008 15:45:30
There may be a few folk out there who still haven’t read The Lorax by Dr Suess. It was an important read when it was published back in the seventies. It’s an essential read today. Read it to your kids, and if you haven’t got kids, read it to yourself.

The Trump-ler vs The Fordax, a truly ripping yarn.

PS Where are all those "affordable" houses going to go? And what's the point of building unaffordable houses?
127

Billy Boy,

Sherman Oaks California 07/07/2008 15:49:56
# 132 Hello Andrew, it is much too late to do anything about Los Angeles, or for that matter, the USA, which is in for a long descent. Scotland must not go the same way! As for the castles,when they were constructed THEY WERE the centres of population. Modern castles are either 19th century or rebuilt.
128

Prudence,

07/07/2008 17:43:18
There's somehow also going to be room for a conference centre at menie as well. Slain ruins further up the road is being converted into 38 timeshares. The plan is for the north east of Scotland to be a global golfing destination. Jack Niklaus has got planning permission for Ury estate near Stonehaven to have his 18 hole championship course(with pool/spa/tennis facilities), The Blairs estate near Banchory is earmarked for an 18hole championship course and the deadline for responses for Aberdeen city's own future 18hole championship course at hazlehead is mid august. Aberdeen city council wants Aberdeen to be known as the city of world class golf, even although its finances are not exactly in healthy shape. I didn't realise golf was so popular, but the thing is there's only a certain amount of world class players available and they can only play on one course at a time. Maybe Aberdeen city council thinks they can play on two at the same time. Nothing's impossible!
129

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 07/07/2008 23:22:19
139 Prudence

You make a great pitch about NE Scotland and golf tourism. Indeed those projects as well as major road infrastructure improvements, an airport runway extension, and the building of much-needed hotel space is planned in the short term. A revised joint city and shire local plan will be out soon, but both councils see a steadily-increasing population, and a huge increase in tourism as a considered aim.

The three proposed golf course resorts you mention, fall under the auspices of Aberdeenshire Council, not Aberdeen City Council. The former has just received a glowing report from Audit Scotland as an example of how a great council should be run. Hazlehead runs two public golf courses already, and the £100 million plans to revamp the location would be privately-funded, and not come from the city council.
130

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 07/07/2008 23:35:59
133 didi08

What's wrong with Poles settling and working in Scotland? Poland is part of the EU. They and other fellow European workers are very welcome in Scotland. It's very interesting that Germany used, and still use, cheaper migrant workers from a non-EU country - Turkey. A bit like the USA use Mexicans for their low-paid service sector jobs. I think, therefore that Scotland is much more ethical than either of these two examples. Especially when Eastern Europeans are also fulfilling urgently required professional vacancies in areas like dentistry.

Please enjoy your visit to "the Dunes" next summer. I guess if Trump had not proposed a development, nobody would have ever known about them. So please thank him for highlighting them to you. And while you're at it, you can visit hundreds of miles of other unspoilt coastline, containing many "dunes", stretching from Dundee north to Caithness, and some.
131

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 07/07/2008 23:41:24
138 Hey Billy Boy

On the castles thing, I think we are making the same point in a different way.

As far as the USA is concerned, there is still much more natural wilderness to be fought for there, than in Scotland.
132

Prudence,

Scotland 08/07/2008 10:52:36
#132 Thank you for enlightening me .I knew Hazlehead was public because the stipulations insist that the public can play on the new course and that is how it should be. In fact , it is going to keep to its Scottish essence which I'm all in favour of, as I'm sure Jack Niklaus's will be. What is not so great , however, are the architectural plans as envisaged by TrumpgolfScotland .They are simply awful, and no way reflect Scottish identity. There is no transparency about why the need for 1000 timeshares,250 room hotel , villas etc. That's sleekit. Neither are there mention of recreational faciities for non golfers, or housing for local /migrant workers . As for the instant "vision" of mature trees on menie dunes, thats pie in the sky, and a total immpossibility. It shows that the planner knows nothing about nor cares for Scotland's environment. This project is more suited to an 18hole championship course in equatorial Brazil, where trees grow quick, workers can stay in tents and swim in the amazon. As you say , Aberdeenshire council have been given a glowing report and their greatness will no doubt be reflected on what happens to Menie.
133

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 08/07/2008 21:15:29
Hi Prudence

Trump's architectural plans still have to be negotiated as a condition even if the Scottish Government pass outline planning consent. Aberdeenshire Council have attached many conditions to this application and the architecture is just one of many dozen.

There is definitely a need for a top class hotel with conference facilities, and a number of houses to help finance the whole project. There are housing developments attached to the Blairs and Stonehaven developments to do just the same. I'm not so sure timeshares will take off, but some type of self-catering accommodation would be welcome in NE Scotland. There is an area set aside on the plan for workers' accommodation.

Trees adjacent to a links course does sound a little strange, but the town of Balmedie, less than a mile away, has a mature wood on it's Northern fringe adjoining Menie land. So it will fit in with the existing environment.
134

Blue Tooner,

Aberdeenshire 09/07/2008 01:02:17
Come on now everybody, we all know the development will cause loads and loads of irreversible environmental devistation, but hey, it’s worth it! We know, we’re business experts! You have to trust us, we’re the lads who told you the Holyrood building would cost you about four million quid, and then advised you to invest everything you’d got in Northern Rock! And all those dodgy bank charges, well, we've paid some of it back, so what more do you want? Come on, you know this one's as safe as houses. How could anyone say no to this once in a lifetime opportunity to embarrass Scotland on a global scale?!!
135

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 09/07/2008 21:27:46
136

I think I prefer the straight-talking, non-sarcastic Blue Tooner.
136

Blue Tooner,

aberdeenshire 09/07/2008 23:15:19
#137

Aye, and so do I Andrew, but he got stamped into the "doons" along with everybody else who tried to play fair.
137

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 16/10/2008 00:50:19
The Scottish Government will have the final say and since it is SNP it will act in Scotlands interest. The other Political parties won't / cannot as they are UK directed thats the facts

 

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