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High-fliers could flee Scotland to dodge local income tax



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Published Date: 17 March 2008
JOHN Swinney's plans for a local income tax in Scotland have suffered a new setback after senior tax experts warned some of the country's wealthiest business leaders might leave the country to avoid paying it.
Mr Swinney, the finance secretary, wants to replace council tax with a new income tax, to be initially set at 3p in the pound.

The plans sparked a storm of opposition with Labour, the Conservatives, some unions and the business community united i
n condemning the new tax. They claimed the regime would be unfair because it would not take into account unearned income and also insisted that there was a £1 billion "black hole" in the plans.

Mr Swinney said his plans were fairer than the council tax and he said he would continue to pursue them.

However, Russell Hills, head of tax in Scotland for accountants KPMG, yesterday said the new tax could prove so punitive on the highest earners that some would leave the country rather than pay it.

With the salary details of many business leaders available in their firms' annual accounts, it has been possible to work out what they would pay under the local income tax plans.

Sir Fred Goodwin, chairman of Royal Bank of Scotland, pays about £2,338 in council tax now. However, his annual salary of just under £4 million would see him liable for a new income tax bill of £120,000.

Martin Gilbert, the chief executive of Aberdeen Asset Management, would see his £2,391 council tax bill change into a £117,000 income tax bill, while David Murray, the Rangers football club owner, would have to find an extra £64,000.

And Brian Souter, the founder of bus company Stagecoach, who donated more than £500,000 to the SNP last year, would see his local tax liability go up from £1,930 to £28,750, if the Scottish Government succeeds in getting the local income levy on the statute book.

However, one winner would be Andrew Hornby, the chief executive of Edinburgh-based HBOS, who would pay nothing because he lives in Yorkshire.

This has led to warnings that others might move to England to avoid the new tax.

In the Budget last week, Chancellor Alistair Darling introduced a levy of £30,000 on "non doms" – wealthy individuals whose main businesses are in the UK but who are not registered to pay personal tax here.

KPMG's Mr Hills said the SNP plans risked the creation of a new group of such people in Scotland.

He said: "We as a firm would not comment on the politics but the plan (for a local income tax] could create a parallel tax system between Scottish workers and English-based colleagues." He added: "They (HM Revenue and Customs] are very tight on resources and dealing with a complicated tax like this would be hard for them to take on just now. It's difficult to see how any other organisation could take on this role as it would involve persuading people to divulge their earnings in a reliable way."

However, a Scottish Government spokesman said: "Those on the top income would pay more on average.

"Scrapping the unfair council tax and the hardship it causes is based on the need for social equity, a strong society and good public services, all of which benefit all who live here, regardless of income."




The full article contains 572 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 17 March 2008 12:05 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

J J MAROONER,

17/03/2008 00:03:30
ooops!!, didny think of that Alex!
2

druidh,

edinburgh 17/03/2008 00:12:52
More made up figures from the Hootsmon. The PIT is like PAYE - so while Fred Goodwin might have to pay another £100,000k from the £4M , that doesn't take into account remuneration in the form of share options etc. - around another £4M.

Really think that £100,000 is SO important to him??
3

,

17/03/2008 00:23:41
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4

Vivas,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 00:29:59
'spose this kind of newspaper scare-mongering could cause concern amongst the high-fliers right enough...

..that is, if any of them ever bothered to read this increasingly loathesome, but decreasing in circulation, rag
5

walter,

17/03/2008 00:31:54
Sir Fred Goodwin, he is a mate of Salmonds there is no way he is going to leave him in the lurch, he will pay another 118,000.00 quid no problem.
The rich are not going to be leaving Scotland when this tax comes in they will be flocking to it.
History proof's it, just look back to when the UK had 60% tax for high earners they were flocking in in there droves that they treasury was collecting that much they dropped it to 40%.
Maybe they dropped it to 40% to get them to come back as they left in droves.
6

Senga Jean,

Scotland 17/03/2008 00:42:18
Another day another bulldust story. It does not work like that. Scotland would be so much better if it were Independent. I hear the words in the news "SELF DETERMINATION" well that works for me...that is exactly what I want for SCOTLAND
7

J J MAROONER,

17/03/2008 00:49:09
6#

Another "bulldust" story concerning our economy is on the political pages Senga but I dont suppose you will object to the content.
8

Senga Jean,

17/03/2008 00:51:07
#7 explain yourself.
9

,

17/03/2008 00:54:46
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10

subrosa,

17/03/2008 01:12:58
Thought the Scotsman would have been far quicker getting the negative scare story out. After all it's been a few days since John Swinney announced the LIT outline.
11

,

17/03/2008 01:20:03
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12

walter,

17/03/2008 01:31:31
The rich who live off investments will stay, the rich who pay income will leave, the workers will be hammered, those on benefits won't pay and all the while the deniers will deny.
13

Edward,

17/03/2008 01:44:21
This must rank as the funniest story that Hamish MacDonnell has written, or rather had written for him by Labour. It becoming more apparent that Labour are providing Hamish with a constant stream of breifings. After all he wouldnt be so idiotic as to actually write this stuff surely?
Like 'However, one winner would be Andrew Hornby, the chief executive of Edinburgh-based HBOS, who would pay nothing because he lives in Yorkshire' Come again? An executive would pay nothing as he lives in Yorkshire!, no sh*t sherlock! So does this mean that Andrew Hornby commutes beween Yorkshire and Edinburgh, or that Andrew Hornby commutes from his home in Yorkshire to his office in Halifax, not very clear here Hamish!
This story is the biggest load of guff Ive ever come accross, but then I suppose there will be more to come as its plain that Labour are on the offensive and will keep trotting out these breifings for saps like Hamish to write up about
14

,

17/03/2008 01:46:58
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15

,

17/03/2008 01:49:28
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16

Edward,

17/03/2008 01:49:46
#12 Walter
Those who earn from investments do pay tax, thats a fact, unless of course you are avoiding paying tax, in which case its a criminal offence! The so called rich will not leave and those such as the low paid and pensioners will not have to pay
It works in other countries, no reason it will not work in Scotland
Oh and by the way Labour in westminster are actually thinking about it for England. This has been muted by Ken Livingston for London but is being looked at for the rest of England. Would be quite embaressing fro Wendy Alexander or who ever is left in charge by the end of the year if Labour in London go for it as part of there next General Election manifesto
17

,

17/03/2008 01:49:58
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18

Edward,

17/03/2008 01:54:37
Should have expected a negative story in the Scotsman
especially after a nightmare weekend for Labour, where Labour find themselves at a 25 yr low in the polls as reported in the Sunday Times. Alex Salmond has a popularity rating of 75%, while Wendy Alexander has a negative 26% as reported in the Sunday Herald and to top it off, the Mail on Sunday reported that the Queen was very angry at Brown using the monarchy for his oath scam. This week Labour in Aviemore, so expect more anti SNP news stories from Hamish and Gerri Peev as well as other as Labour try and detract from what will be a less than harmonious conference
19

,

17/03/2008 02:05:06
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20

,

17/03/2008 02:05:09
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21

,

17/03/2008 02:11:37
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22

Tappets,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 05:11:27
The prospect of Brown and Darling was enough to make me leave the country. Tired of subsidising everything, which was a penalty for working hard. Brown is a member of the "flat earth society" when it comes to taxation and his spendthrift nature. The SNP need to think again.
23

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 17/03/2008 05:56:02
Fred Goodwins 120,000 would not even cover the downpayment on a comparable property if he chose to move from Edinburgh to London. This is a non story.
24

Angoos,

Baku, Azerbaijan 17/03/2008 05:57:29
As an overseas worker, with a home in Scotland how would it work for me then ? I already pay 900 quid a year council tax (after my 25% single person reduction) and last year I was only in the UK for 4 weeks.
How would they base this "local income tax" payment for me ? Would I be expected to pay it on my earnings earned overseas ? If that is the case then this article is spot on because I would be off lock, stock and barrell to other shores ! I'm already being fleeced under the current system by paying for services that I don't use (due to the fact that I am overseas) whereas my neighbours, with their two children, pay the same but use the availabel services 24/7 365 days a year.
25

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 17/03/2008 06:19:39
The law of unintended consequences returns to bite the SNP numpties, as usual.

Tax vice, reward virtue: land value tax not local income tax.
26

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 17/03/2008 06:59:26
The super rich are irrelevant to this stupid tax as they are few and far between. My sympathies are with offshore workers etc who bring a lot of foreign earnings into this country and are already being hammered by the taxman. Should this horrendous proposal become a reality, we may well see a mass exodus leaving plenty room for gay asylum seekers who will scrounge on the state anyway.
27

brownlie,

glasgow 17/03/2008 07:15:23
What a co-incidence that KPMG, who have made millions + as consultants for the Labour government, are making this statement.
What is obscene that the people, quoted as the super-rich, are only paying a few hundred pounds more than I am despite their earning being around a hundred times as much as mine.
A responsible journalist would have asked them the question "Will you be leaving Scotland rather than pay this tax".
Finally, those who have been insinuating that donating to the SNP would be of benefit to Brian Soutar, must be disappointed that the main thrust of that arguement has been removed.
28

Celtic Lion,

Roar 17/03/2008 07:15:53
"However, one winner would be Andrew Hornby, the chief executive of Edinburgh-based HBOS, who would pay nothing because he lives in Yorkshire."

Hamish, in the interests of not misleading your readers, I worked for HBOS until a few years ago. Halifax HQ has been in Halifax for some time. While the foyer is nice the rest of the building is showing it's age. There's also a rather pleasant pub just a short walk down the road. It also happens that Andrew works there (in Halifax, not the pub) and not in Edinburgh and continues to earn substantially more than many other HBOS employees though pays very little extra in council tax.
29

yockel,

17/03/2008 07:23:22
Unfortunately this time the Hootsmon is right. It won't just be hi-flyers either. We are over taxed already. Giving government more money is the last thing any of us should contemplate. It is sucessive governments which have spent us into the predicament we are in. Starve them of cash, walk to work, brew your own beer anything to avoid giving them another penny.
SNP has to find another way to govern.
30

,

17/03/2008 07:28:00
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31

Macuistean,

Isle of Tiree 17/03/2008 07:28:03
I wonder how many of these tax payers will choose between paying the tax or buying food or fuel? Many pensioners and minimum wage families under Labour had to make that choice. How does Wendy plan to help them? At least the Scottish Government is trying to do something which is more than Labour have done in over 50 years.
32

Linda,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 07:34:40
To move house high flyers will need to pay 4% stamp duty plus same again in other fees such as Estate Agents, Solicitors and other costs. It would take at least 3 years to be better off. In that time they would require to high additional travel costs, inconvenance or live out a suitcase in hotels.

Not everyone would think this was worth it. Thinkof all the other "high flyers" like Frank Bruno and Jim Davidson who were going to leave the country if Labout came into power.
33

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 07:37:14
With all these important high flyers standing up and speaking out against the policies of the Scottish Government, the standing of the SNP in general and Alex Salmond in particular, must be taking a hammering in the polls.

What with Trumpgate, Aviemore, LIT etc, Wendy’s popularity on the other hand, will obviously be soaring.

Now, all we need is for some polling organisation or other to carry out a poll to confirm this.

No doubt this newspaper, in the proper pursuit of fairness and objectivity, would publish the results of such a poll and give it such prominence within its columns, as it would so clearly deserve.

Does anyone know of any such poll? :-)
34

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 17/03/2008 07:38:32
#33 Yep, sadly Paul Daniels, the lovely Debbie and rapidly approaching middle age snooker wunderkind Stephen Hendry are still here.
35

Grahamski,

Falkirk 17/03/2008 07:42:01
Hell mend the SNP for making these ridculous promises during the election campaign. They promised a quick uncosted fix to a very serious problem: making collection of 20% of local government taxes fairer. Mr Swinney looks a haunted man as he tries to put forward a policy which he knows to be economically illiterate. There is a billion quid hole in his sums and the pathetic attempt to blame Westminster has just blown up in his face. Nobody but the most unhinged of nationalist supporters are buying that line.
Check out the usual nationalist posters trotting out the usual nationalist apologia - blame the messenger (it's a conspiracy, don't you know) or if all else fails go back to default setting - blame the English.
The fact that the super rich will pay nothing or that the high fliers may think about relocation is peripheral here. For LIT to work we'd need to see a rate of at least 6p, that is double what the SNP say. With these numbers it won't just be the highfliers who will be looking to get out, there'll be a stampede.
LIT, the SNP's very own answer to the poll tax and they know it.
36

Reckless,

911 was an inside job 17/03/2008 07:42:50
Write your political messages on the Bank of England's paper fiat money.

37

john z,

edinburgh 17/03/2008 07:47:50
Since the beginning of time, very rich people have whinged long and hard, any time it's suggested they should pay more tax. But so does everybody.

The reality is, a lot of very wealthy people choose to live here, as they like the relative safety, good education and general friendliness compared to other places around the world. I do not believe such people will choose to move abroad just because there tax goes up.

Scotland is, in global terms for a very wealthy person, a great place to live, as they can often go about their daily lives, especially in the highlands, unhindered by constant press intrusion. To celebrities, that alone is worth its weight in gold.
38

Col.Chi Man,

17/03/2008 07:57:18
28 Brown

"... those who have been insinuating that donating to the SNP would be of benefit to Brian Soutar, must be disappointed that the main thrust of that arguement has been removed."

He may be misguided, but no daft. No doubt they'll find other ways of repaying the obligation created by his massive donation
39

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 08:03:27
36. Behold the usual positivity, constructive criticism and alternatives from Labour. I can't figure out why Salmond is, according to the Herald poll, the most popular First Minster ever, with an unprecedented 75% approval rating lead over Ms Alexander.

Grahamski - we have heard all the Labour doom-mongering, sky collapsing, cannae do it, before. Labour said the council tax could not be frozen - the SNP delivered it. Labour said the SNP could not get their budget passed - it has been delivered. Labour said we would all get a £5000 tax bill for voting SNP - we are still waiting.

The government have published a consultation paper on LIT to start the debate and get all the facts. However, I doubt many people will take much notice of what the Labour party - WMD's ready at 45 minutes notice, £5,000 tax bill, doom and gloom merchants - will say on this issue or any other issue.

Given Labour have just cut inheritance tax for millionaires in a bidding war with the Tories to pander to the rich, and their non-doms tax breaks and loopholes it ill befits Labour to talk about fair taxation.
40

Grahamski,

Falkirk 17/03/2008 08:03:37
28
The main thrust of the argument was that the SNP would change policy and give Mr Soutar access to expound his vile homophobic right wing views.
Hey and guess what, as soon as the SNP pocketed Mr Soutar's wedge they changed their transport policy. That would be change a policy which benefitted the majority of Scots to one that suited one Scot, Mr Soutar.
Good to see the SNP executive gave Mr Soutar ministerial access to peddle his right wing relgious zealotry.
Just so as we're clear exactly why people have a problem with the rich being able to rent the SNP. Nothing to do with the fact that the SNP can't count.
41

Grahamski,

Falkirk 17/03/2008 08:05:38
41
Well done Ayrshire, a lie or misrepresentation on every line, is this a record?
Probably not.
42

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 17/03/2008 08:06:18
#20 Scott Webb, thank you for posting that link. SoCal visits the Grapes of Wrath again.

http://www.infowars.com/?p=841
43

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 08:16:45
43. Daily Record? We note you don't dispute or point what the misrepresentations are.

Oh do go warn people about WMDs stashed under Salmond's bed ready to be launched at 45 mins notice, or the imminent collapse of civilisation if Scotland adopts a fairer council funding system, or some other Labour wheeze.

44

brownlie,

glasgow 17/03/2008 08:17:13
Good morning, Grahamski,
There is a hugh difference between being homophobic and not wanting young children to be informed of the "benefits" of being homosexual.
You and your fellow unionists must be jumping for joy that the super-rich in the article are only paying a few hundred pounds a month more in council tax than the peasants but it is new lab policy for the poor to bale out the rich. That is probably why the council tax, for you and me, is increasing 20% on a yearly basis and, if retained, will continue to do so when, or if, Wendy becomes first minister.
45

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 08:18:37
42. Meanwhile, back at the Labour ranch, Brown invites Thathcer for tea and heaps praise on her. I hope she didn't expound any right wings views.....
46

Birnamo,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 08:21:24
Just how does 3p in the pound relate to the 40% of income I pay as Council Tax ? Any businessman leaving Scotland because of this should be worthy of an ASBO !
47

Grahamski,

Falkirk 17/03/2008 08:22:46
46
Here's thos lies in full
Grahamski - we have heard all the Labour doom-mongering, sky collapsing, cannae do it, before. Labour said the council tax could not be frozen (no they didn't)- the SNP delivered it. Labour said the SNP could not get their budget passed (no they didn't)- it has been delivered. Labour said we would all get a £5000 tax bill for voting SNP (no they didn't)- we are still waiting.
You seem to enjoy sharing your rather infantile worldview on these boards. Do you share Mr Gaeorge Galloway's view that it would be acceptable to kill the British PM? What is your view on the troops out movement in Iraq? In Afghanistan? Did you support troops out of Ulster?
47
Granted, the council tax is terribly unfair and the inequity of it should have been tackled years ago. LIT is not the answer and cynically the SNP know it
48

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 08:23:30
42. So Mr Soutar donated to the SNP. The SNP voted to repeal section 2a, which Soutar wanted kept. Now the SNP propose a LIT which according to the article will cost Soutar c £30,000 more. Mmm, his influence is indeed insidious.

Meanwhile, back at the Labour ranch.... Ecclestone gives a £million and exempts F1 from cancer advertising, Mittal gives £1million and gets a letter of reccommendation for his "British" company from Blair, even though he never had a British company, the Hindujahs sling Labour a million and get their passport applications expedited, the Labour PM intervenes to stop a fraud office investigation of a cool £1 billion bribe to a Saudi prince for an arms deal.... and Grahamski warns us of the.....the SNP???? ... ho hum
49

JayJay,

Right here 17/03/2008 08:26:07
You'd honestly think these journos had nothing better to write. First off, the examples quoted are few and far between in Scotland. Secondly, I am prepared to bet these guys pay a very very small proportion of their income in tax already because they have the means and the wealth to hire the very best tax experts. So, if the article is designed to whip up the "tax the rich" mob, then wake up people. The rich are on record, through selected spokespeople, telling us they don't "do" tax.
No, sadly, its only the mugs caught between the gutter and the stars who "do" tax, and can do precious little to avoid the dead hand of Government as it swipes ever more from your pockets.
I just don't know why we can't demand more from our politicians...rather than just firing up the pc, getting irate about the injustice of the tax system, and demanding to pay more tax.
We are already the most taxed nation in Europe. We should focus on the reasons for council tax soaring by 60% in ten years (I suspect it was yet another ruse from westminster to shift taxes from direct to indirect); we should focus on the unrestricted growth in the public sector, together with the rise of the quiangoes and the "czars"; we should enquire, given that you already claim a higher than at any other time tax take, what on earth have you spent the money on.
Instead, people debate the fairness of tax. Talk about missing the point.
50

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 08:27:51
50. Grahamski says Labour never claimed there would be a £5000 ta bill for voting SNP....

but here is the video and press article:
Scottish Labour Party - £5000 SNP Tax Bill 2007 - AOL VideoScottish Labour Party - £5000 SNP Tax Bill 2007. ... Scottish Labour Party - £5000 SNP Tax Bill 2007. Close. To share this media with a friend, ...
video.aol.com/video-detail/scottish-labour-party-5000-snp-tax-bill-2007/959660748 - 72k - Cached - Similar pages .... Labour in 'doomsday' attack on SNP | Politics | The ObserverA panic-stricken Labour Party will deliver its most negative attack yet on the ... A three-deck slogan - '£5000, SNP Tax Bill, How would your family cope? ...
www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2007/apr/15/scotland.devolution?gusrc=rss&feed=global - 58k -


Grahamski seems to be having a typical Labour party problem with truth.
51

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/03/2008 08:33:00
Hang on a second Hamish. I thought you told us that the super-rich would be well able to dodge paying LIT because they could take all their earnings as dividend. Now you tell us they will flee the country to avoid it. So which is it Hamish?
52

Alasdair,

17/03/2008 08:44:34
Yep, I'd second that - Grahamski doesn't seem concerned with the truth. SNP transport policy? The SNP hasn't made any changes that will directly benefit Mr Soutar, but it's funny to watch you post vague accusations that don't stand up to the slightest scrutiny.
About as accurate an accusation as the idiots on here who claimed that the SNP's opposition to the trams was because Soutar runs buses.. except that he doesn't run local services in Edinburgh!! D'oh.
53

Doh,

17/03/2008 08:48:46

The Telegraph (on Staurday) reported that the latest Labour Budget has doubled the number of working poor that are now paying a marginal rate of tax of 70%
(11% NIC, 20%IT, 39% lost tax credits).

Another scare story to make you feel grateful that the rich bother to pay any tax at all.
54

yockel,

17/03/2008 08:50:25
Lets all pay more tax.
Lets not ask what it gets spent on.
Lets not consider whether or not it is good for the economy to allow government to have money to spend.
Lets not consider why they think they have the right to tax us at all.
Bah, bah, bah ..........
55

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 17/03/2008 09:00:14
SNP shoots the goose that lays the golden eggs; and also shoots itself in the foot. Competence? Hardly.
56

brownlie,

glasgow 17/03/2008 09:13:49
And another thing, Grahamski, no mention in the Darling budget of national insurance contributions going up - one more stealth tax from Labour.
57

Brendan,

17/03/2008 09:19:46
I'm more appalled that the "very rich" those earning 100 times more than me are paying so little for their services.

We don't all receive the same services.

I'll hazard a guess that the "very rich" live in the city's tree lined areas that the poor get to drive through - the areas where 3 or 4 homes are located on a half mile stretch of road where the council seem to have a resident group of workers who spend their entire working day maintaining street lamps and sweeping leaves.
58

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 17/03/2008 09:20:09
Ach well, Scottish Labour must be doing great, after all how many parties can afford to lose 12,000 members in a ten year period?

Now 12,000 at £3 a month over ten years is......?

Whereas the SNP have increased membership to 14,000 a mere 4,000 away from once mighty Labour and are projected to overtake them as Scotland's largest party by 2010. Ach weel membership is only £1 a month.

Go on you know it makes sense.

https://www.snp.org/about/join-in.html

59

Stephen B,

Speaking with Sarcasm 17/03/2008 09:20:50
I think LIT is an excellent idea. I live in a large house, pay myself minimum wage and take the rest of earnings in the form of dividends so I'll be seriously quids in. After paying increasingly high taxes for years, it will be nice change to be subsidized by hard working nurses, policemen and well paid civil servants.

On a more serious note, my advice to the SNP would be to steer clear of the Liberal's suggestion of a locally decided rate. If you learned anything from the poll tax, it's that the local council setting the rate does NOT get the blame if it is too high...and why should a Labour council (for example) not set a rate that could both gouge people for all they're worth, safe in the knowledge that their central government opponents will get the blame, not them.

And don't expect your 'friends' in the Lib Dems to shoulder the blame when that happens. Labour leaned the hard way that, like Macavity, they won't be there when the trouble hits the fan.
60

The Strategist,

17/03/2008 09:31:23
Personally I'd tax Goodwin's £4m to the tune of £3.9m and use it to help fund all those start-ups and spin-outs RBS won't help now.
61

McMillar,

Fife 17/03/2008 09:41:16
Would need to see the net +/- for typical salary scales as most of us don’t live in dividend land. I would gladly pay a bit more for improved local services but not if just going to subsidise local council bureaucracy and an army of pencil pushers.
62

Macuistean,

Isle of Tiree 17/03/2008 09:44:37
Just found this story in The Daily Retard.

MSP Trish Godman Claimed £30,000 To Rent Son's Flat
Mar 17 2008

A SENIOR MSP claimed more than £30,000 in "hotel" expenses for renting her fraudster son's flat, it emerged yesterday.


Maybe this ass-wipe of a paper should look at what is going on in the real world and stop making up stories to frighten the children.
63

Aqwes,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 09:44:44
I thought all the rich people left when the SNP won the election? Or was that a lie in the papers too?
64

Miss H,

17/03/2008 09:48:54
42 your logic escapes me. You argue that the SNP changed their policy on transport to accomodate Souter's vile homophobic views. So they banned gay trains then? Or perhaps an edict went out, all pink buses to be painted a more macho shade - airforce gray perhaps.

Are there no depths to which the vile SNP will not stoop?
65

Miss H,

17/03/2008 09:52:17
57 You are free to move any time to a country where people don't pay much tax and the government does not provide many services.

Malawi perhaps - or how about Aghanistan?
66

sweet76,

17/03/2008 09:59:55
If this new tax will make no difference to the Tax revenue collected..........what's the point in changing it?
If it's redistribute the wealth then someone, somewhere will be paying more. Someone has to lose out.
67

Sgurr,

17/03/2008 10:03:02
One point is that under the present system, if a high net worth individual moves away eg to London, all we are losing is c.£2400 (top rate of council tax), since all of his taxed earnings are taken away by London anyway.

Personally though, I don't like the idea as I might as well retire early.
68

Glasgow Jim,

17/03/2008 10:04:11
Goodwin and Souter will already have been promised LIT won't apply to them. All others contributing to SNP coffers can join the club.
69

Melly,

Sussex 17/03/2008 10:04:33
#30 Yokel
You WONT BE PAYING YOUR £1800.00 OR SO COUNCIL TAX !!! Wat`s so difficult to understand ? Instead you will pay tax based on your ability to pay stupid.
70

Chris.J,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 10:05:58
How about focussing on the massive numbers of poor and less affluent people that will pay less tax... instead of this Daily Mail-esque scare story that only concerns a couple of dozen people. Saying that, even the Daily Mail is more credible than this grubby little rag these days.....
71

Professor22,

lochgelly 17/03/2008 10:13:07
Heres a story

Howabout getting all the feckless lazy gits and single mothers and benefit junkies out to work so that they can pay their income tax, council tax and rent and stop sponging of the nation.

Here's one sick fed up business owner who is constantly hammered by tax and the system to pay more whilst most of the 80/90 percent pay very little.

Local income tax for what? So I can get my bin emptied twice a month. My escape plan is being prepared.

Have you ever wondered why so many Scots inventors left our shores for good and took residence in other nations. And of course, theres SHhhhhhhheeeeeann. I wonder if he pays council tax at the minute??

BR Paul
72

Stephen B,

The Chippie 17/03/2008 10:14:30
And another thing...I bet that Brian Souter pays the same for a fish supper as me. HOw CAN THAT Be FAIR!

HOW CAN IT BE FAIR THAT THE MOST VULNERABLE PEOPLE IN SOCIETY HAVE TO PAY THE SAME AS RICH PARASITES FOR THEIR FOOD?

THE SOONER WE ARE PURE, POOR AND EQUAL THE BETTER OFF WE WILL ALL BE.
73

Doh,

17/03/2008 10:18:12
#63

I would disgaree with your first point and ask you to consider three things:

"1) High fliers are rich because they work very hard and talented - and often have skills that are in high demand."

1. Some of the hardest working people are those with few qualifictions that have to take jobs with long hours, difficult conditions and of course low pay.

2. As for talent, remember working in the City doesnt indicate talent, just consider the Nothern Rock fiasco and the current financial crisis. This situation is one of the "high flyers" own making. But they will still be getting fantastic salaries an bonuses.

3. If it wasnt them it would be someone else.
In other words someone is going to end up as chief banana - and it wont necessarily be the most competent person in the organisation. Possibly just the a better yes-man or a face that fits their bosses prejudices.

Over the last 30 years CEO pay has far outstripped median salaries and this more a function of greed and opportunity rather than reward for hard work and talent.



74

Professor22,

lochgelly 17/03/2008 10:18:21
Wardog,Buckie 17/03/2008 09:33:40

Wardog, these individuals have already paid income tax at 40 percent. Do you?

How much should emptying my bin cost? Should I be able to elect what services I pay for and what type of service I should get.

If I was paying ten grand to get my bins emptied I would expect them to be there at my front door every day to take the stuff away.

Have you ever seen the waste in council services, most of them work for the cooncil as they cant get a job elsewhere, or fancy the 26 weeks full sick pay and super ann that the rest of us muggings dont get.
75

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 17/03/2008 10:21:17
#72 Sgurr, personally I'm looking forward to snapping up all these multi millionaires homes at bargain prices...
76

Doh,

17/03/2008 10:23:10
#77 Stephen

Why should I pay the same as Brian Souter for police and fire brigade - what do I care if one of his many properties r businesses get ransacked or burnt down?

Why should I pay for the health and education of his workers that earn him a fortune in profit?

He has got more reason than anyone to pay more tax.
He has got more to lose and can afford to give more back.
77

Doh,

17/03/2008 10:24:41
#81 should be refer to #77
78

Professor22,

lochgelly 17/03/2008 10:27:35
81 Doh

"Why should I pay the same as Brian Souter for police and fire brigade ?"

Because they provide you with the same service as Souter.

So, the incentive for working hard and being successful is to pay more. OK, thats fine, but I want a gold card direct line to the Police and I dont want to have to talk to a contact centre and I want a Constable based at the end of my street. That would be fair!
79

boudica,

Glasgow 17/03/2008 10:29:30
It would have suited Swinney better to have did something with the Council Tax to make it fairer , he would still have had the £400 mil from Westminster as we would still have Council Tax so they could not hold it back ... he and Wee Fat Eck had to come up with something that wouldnt be acceptable and they knew that they wouldnt get the 400 mill they were told that when they first came out with LIT and on several occassions since ..but now we see that was their strategy all along and they can blame the Westminster Gov for it failing and they still have the Council and the Cash it brings in bet you the Council Tax Freeze starts an Early Thaw ......Yep Wee Eck the Dodgy Economist at work ....
80

HughB,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 10:35:01
Where has this new "figure" of £1 billion come from. Have they been adding up all the different figures quoted in different papers?

The sooner the "high fliers" at the Scotsman move out, the better!!!!
81

Calum10,

17/03/2008 10:38:10
Political pundits are again misjudging the public on their attitude to LIT. A majority of people support the implementation LIT

Labour and the Tories are collectively making a mistake in trying to retain the hated Council Tax. By offering no alternatives they are onto a vote loser.

Gordon Brown is heading for a large fall in trying to block from London such a tax change in Scotland. It makes Brown out to be vindicative and uncaring towards Scotland.

82

Professor22,

lochgelly 17/03/2008 10:41:02
Or Maybe Gordon just thinks the LIT is a pile of poo!
83

Doh,

17/03/2008 10:41:33
#83 professor

No they dont, the superish benefit far more than an average citizen.

They have more property to protect, some people dont own a property at all - they are still paying for the police protection of their landlord.

Why should I pay for the education and health care of Souter's workers so that he can pay them less and make a handsome profit?

The rich have more to lose, have more to protect and so should pay more. They can also afford it.
84

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 10:48:51
That'll be RBS moving completely to London then!
85

HughB,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 10:50:48
#87

You would think that if Labour and the Tories did think LIT was bad, they would allow the SNP to implement it, and give them enough rope , as it were.

This is obviously not the case, as LIT would be popular for the majority of the population, and would therefore show up the uncaring nature of the parties in power at Westminster.
86

Professor22,

lochgelly 17/03/2008 10:52:03
88 Doh,17/03/2008 10:41:33

So, lets just give up all of our property and live in a communion and live of the welfare system?

Sorry, thats been tried and it failed in Russia.

Just admit it doh, youve cannot amount to the same talent as the superish (sic). Instead of feeling envy why dont you get on with it.

What the article reflect is the last 0.00001 percent of weathly in scotland and reflects the extremes. For the reasonable well off, this will be yet another reason to give it all up and throw two fingers to you all.
87

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 10:52:33
5. What planet are you on?

There was a massive 'brain-drain' from the UK to Europe, N America and Oz/NZ in the early 80s due to the then high taxes!
88

alanh,

ek 17/03/2008 10:52:42
usual scare stories.


up there with the £5k per person if we get an snp govt and us losing all those companies thru the years if we didnt vote nu labs, only for the companies to go after all over time.
89

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 10:52:44
As soon as I read the title I knew straight away it was another piece of "journalism" hot from the New Labour presses and presented by Hamish the Red.

Senior tax experts = Senior Stalwart Unionist tax experts.

Didnt we get almost the same story regarding big business leaving Scotland if the SNP won the election???? and was it no coincidently by the same "reporter"??
90

HughB,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 10:57:21
The sooner the "high fliers" at the Scotsman move out, the better!!!!
91

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 10:57:43
Is this because "HIGH FLYERS" are actually getting a good deal from the council tax??????
Hasnt New Labour always denied this was the case?? havent they always pushed the council tax as being fair across the board???
Is this story actually trying to discredit this claim????
92

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 11:01:20
94

There has been a massive migration of Scots and Irish from the UK over the last 300 years due to the repression of the Union.
For 300 years this countries biggest and best export has been its population.
So how does your "argument" fit in with the FACT that the LIT is a tax cut relative to council tax for most???????
93

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 11:02:58
89

Not if they make a saving in corporation taxation by staying in Scotland. Business is business and politics is politics.
94

Hadrian,

Tillicoultry 17/03/2008 11:03:49
Happily pay 3%,
Currently paying 19% of taxed income and I aint the only one in this fix.
Sir Fred is lucky.
Roll on local income tax.
95

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 11:03:50
84

How is that possible when it isnt even possible to collect the correct amounts due???
96

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 11:06:03
50

So what is the answer???
97

Jingling Geordie,

Embra 17/03/2008 11:07:30
I find it quite obscene that on a salary of 25k I pay the same coucil tax as Sir Fred Goodwin on 4 million and more coucil tax than Brian Soutar, (good man that he is) this merely emphasises how unfair the present system is.
If their greed is such that they feel the need to flee the country then that's perhaps the best thing for them.
98

Stephen B,

Liquidate the Kulaks as a class! 17/03/2008 11:09:05
88 -Doh, I think you might be getting Souter as an individual and Souter's businesses confused.

Souter's business will already be paying rates based on the ratable value of their sites - so if he has 3 bus stations (for example) then his business pays rates on three bus stations. These would therefore be payments exactly in proportion to the company sites that would need protecting as you demand.

Likewise if he personally owns three properties (for example) he will pay three lots of council tax (albeit probably at a reduced rate on two of them on the other properties).

But I don't know about you but I expect the police to do more than just protect property - if the Police stopped criminals from breaking into my rented house but stood idly by as I was knifed outside, I would be dismayed to say the least.

99

Ffion,

top of the world 17/03/2008 11:12:06
it's all falling to pieces isn't it? and it wasn't supposed to be like this-even Smeato isn't what he used to be-how will these plans affect our beloved MSPs? They presumably don't pay double council tax on duel homes (or on their kids flats) No doubt if this hits them, they'll find another way to claw back their loss.
100

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 11:15:05
76

For the first time in your life a politcal party is proposing to genuinely lower your tax burden with no smoke and mirrors or catches to increace it with another stealth tax elsewhere and all you can do is whinge and try and shoot it down.
Its because of morons like you and yer voting intentions that we are as heavily taxed as we are now.
When unionists decide they can no longer afford to cut off their own noses to spite their faces then Independence will come that little bit sooner and we will all be better off and that is a FACT.
101

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 11:18:04
96. The 'businesses leaving Scotland under SNP' scenario was based on SNP intentions to raise taxes, including income tax.

When the SNP implement this tax, watch the big-earners move south of the border.

And watch the 'move' turn to a 'flood' if the Tories get back in and start cutting taxes. Unless Scotland cuts its taxes too, there will be a major disincentive for many people moving to and staying in Scotland.

To reject that is an astonishingly high level of denial.



102

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 11:20:25
99. More nat tripe about the repression of the union.

What repression would that be then?
103

Derick fae Yell,

still in the flu hoose 17/03/2008 11:21:01
Has Michelle Mone left yet?
where's my £5,000 tax bill
Why are the Firstborn still alive?

I'm sure I just saw a cloud of locusts - no it's dirt. must wash the windows when I'm able.

Professor22 - LIT and the size/inefficiency of local government are separate issues.
104

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 11:22:27
100. What "saving in Corporation Tax"? The 28% rate is UK-wide or didn't you know that?
105

Nikostratos,

17/03/2008 11:23:59
They won't have to leave they have got Alex's ear and when and if the time comes the snp will bend the rules to the benefit of the high flyer's.


They will tell Alex when to jump all he will want to know is how high and for how long.....................
106

Doh,

17/03/2008 11:25:41
#106 Stephen

No I dont think I am confusing the two.

The rates he pays on additional premises and houses do not cover the cost of supporting these assests.

I still need to police and protect his property with my income tax that pays for 50% of council spending.

I still need to educate his workers and pay for their health care so he can take a larget slice of the profit of their hard work as his own "share".

I think what you are saying is that if I only have one kidney then I should pay more "kidney" tax than someone with two?

That sounds fair.
107

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 11:26:52
112

A good case for more powers to Hollyrood then dont you think?? and the best scenario for more powers is Independence.

108

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 11:29:54
110

The historical one its more accurate than yer migration theory on high taxation thats for sure.
According to this government in spite of the massive tax burden we are facing an inward migration crises so taxation doesnt seem to affect migration figures at all does it???
109

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 11:33:22
116. Just read this: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/brain-drain-from-uk-is-worst-in-the-world-512463.html

Even with taxes well below the highs of the 70s and early 80s, we STILL suffer from a 'brain-drain'.

Only LOWER TAXES can stop a brain-drain. Yet the SNP actually want to hike up income tax by another 3%!
110

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 11:34:52
Seriously, Foulkes, do you know anything about anything?
111

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 11:36:05
118

I know youre a troll who posts as AM2, English voice, and quite a few others. And you dont really believe a word you post.
112

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 11:38:03
117

How can you claim we have a brain drain when the Government claims the immigration figures as stratospheric?? surely with so many immigrants there should be at least one or two comming in with a brain???
113

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 11:39:13
120. Read. The. Article.
114

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 11:41:05
121

Why?? is it factual does it give any real conclusive evidence or politically bias opinion as usual??
115

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 11:44:00
122. That perfectly sums up the nat attitude.

Absolute refusal to accept anything that contradicts the SNP party line.

Absolute denial of reality.

Absolute refusal to accept that Salmond is anything less than 'absolutely and perpetually right in everything he says and does'.
116

Miss H,

17/03/2008 11:45:17
This is all quite hilarious.

Last week the SNP were tax-cutting Tartan Tories and local government services were going to be slashed to pay for the nats' right wing agenda.

This week the SNP are going to drive the rich out of Scotland by taxing them till the pips squeak.

I wonder where we will be next week?
117

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 11:46:53
124. Has anyone ever referred to the SNP as "tax-cutting"?
118

Miss H,

17/03/2008 11:51:49
125 Yes indeed. That's where the 'black hole in SNP's figures' comes from - because the LIT proposals raise less than council tax does.

Taken together what it all means is that people on low incomes will pay less and people on high incomes a bit more. Which is what most people think is fair. Which is why you don't like it I guess.
119

Doh,

17/03/2008 11:52:10
#92 Mario

I dont have a chip on my shoulder about the superrich.

I just believe they should pay their way - and their share - they do not at the moment.
Their are numerous tax loopholes and provision for tax tourists in this country.

But I pay my taxes (private sector, high rate) so they can enjoy these benfits at the expense of the poor who pay a disproportionate amount of tax.

As for #93 I am not advocating communism - I am advocating avoiding a revolution - when the poor have nothing to lose then they have much to lose.

Social democracy has underpinned our economic development not hindered it.

The rich can afford to pay and it is in their interest to pay more to maintain the social contract between rich and poor. Simple as that really.
120

Stephen B,

A cold room 17/03/2008 11:56:42
114 - Doh, 'the Scottish Government' funds around 80% of local authority expenditure - this means in reality that general taxation (corporate and personal etc)provides the 80%. And I would expect Souter's businesses (and Souter as an individual) to be contributing considerably more to this general pot than me and my wee company. So even if the rates themselves did not cover the value of the assets, I would expect the remainder of his taxation (personal and corporate) to do so.

The same goes for other public services such as education and health care. I'm not too sure what you're saying though about the link between public services and Souter's demonic activities as a business owner.

Your kidney example is actually the opposite of what I was saying. If he has two houses (or two kidneys!) he pays council tax/rates on both of them.

Seems fair to me.
121

Doh,

17/03/2008 11:58:28
#92 Mario,

Actually I would agree that hard work in the privaet sector leads to lower pay. Peter principle and all that - cant be to competent or they cant afford to promote you.

As for working smarter not harder - do you mean like the Executives at Nothern Rock?

Or perhaps Enron?
122

Doh,

17/03/2008 12:04:30
#128 Stephen

My kidney example mayhave confused you.

If I only have one kidney why should I pay the treatment of your second kidney? Surely it is superflous if not to you then at least to me.

I think you have conflated kidneys and houses.
The two are seperate.

I never said Souter's business activities as demonic.
That is you.

I wish him and all business people well in their endevours and should they make a profit and become rich I would like them to pay their share of taxes in return for society that gave the opportunity to become so wealthy.

Payback. Sounds fair to me. Some rich people even give their money away - not so many in this country though they are mostly greedy like you.
123

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 12:07:01
123

Na its your inability to present any viable argument that can be backed up with anything resembling reasonable acceptable proof.
You can post yer opinion you can even post other peoples opinions but you cant present them as facts without evidence to back it up and thats where it all falls down.
124

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 12:07:34
125

Yes I have frequently.
125

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 12:08:02
131. You still haven't read that article, have you!
126

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 12:08:55
126

No he is only pretending he doesnt like it. His entire presence on these threads is a pretence.
127

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

edinburgh 17/03/2008 12:10:03
133

No I dont have to to know it wont contain a shred of evidence to support the opinion simply based on your past record on these threads.
128

mr angry,

ayrshire 17/03/2008 12:25:23
I don't mind paying more if it helps people , however I do mind that the local councils are bloated , workshy in many cases , have an easy life and index linked pensions, these we should not be burdened with.
Also anybody on the social or unemployed should be forced to do work, as the country is a sh*thole with all the rubbish around etc , holes in roads and general cr*p, there is no shortage of things needing done. This might focus the minds of the lazy gits lying around sponging off the state, sign on once and money paid into bamk account for ever.
Then it might be worth paying in excess of £2000 a year.
129

Col.Chi Man,

17/03/2008 12:30:05
126 miss H

LOL! I love it! Get yer sums wrong and sell it as a gesture of justice and fairness! How would you sell a nationalist homophobe?
130

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 12:31:37
138

I believe a lot of what you say is down to business and companies not funding any real training schemes.
We need to reintroduce apprentiships on a larger scale funded by companies with specific skill requirements. If companies want a skilled work force then they should be willing to fork out to train them even if it means specific and narrow skilled training.
As things stand now companies would rather poach existing skilled workers from other companies rather than taking on new workers and school leavers and training them up. Its even the same with the councils and the civil service and even Government depts.
Everybody seems to think short term profit and its that attitude that has to be adjusted to long term planning.
131

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 12:32:52
Miss H

139 is just another HM/AM2/EV post. I promise you.
132

subrosa,

17/03/2008 12:38:45
# 139

I'd much rather have Brian Souter on my side than the likes of you. At least he puts his money where his mouth is - you just open yours and let the bile dribble out.
133

Col.Chi Man,

17/03/2008 12:42:11
#142 What makes you think I was referring to the fine upstanding Mr S?
134

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 12:43:45
141. Foulkes in 'gets it wrong yet again' shocker.

135

Scott Frae Edinburgh,

Embra 17/03/2008 12:45:59
Greeat another situation where Scottish people don't have to take finacial responsibility for themsleves. If you can't be bothered working or you have failed to provide for yourself in later life don't worry, those who have will foot the bill, after all they already foot the bill for the enormous welfare bill.

Meanwhile having slogged my guts out to get a good job and buy a pretty expensive home I will be that extra bit later in having a family because more of my income has to go to support others. I need not worry however those who cannot support themselves are having plenty of kids to make up the difference.
136

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 12:46:24
144

Opinion or one of yer useless facts again?
137

Wolfman,

Kinross 17/03/2008 12:46:58
Sir Fred Goodwin already pays £1.6m in tax or had you all forgotten that. Yet again those that work hard get penalised. I have no kids, by choice because I was not prepared to make the Financial sacrifices, and as a reward I get hammered for tax. Because I have the audacity to have a working wife, she gets hammered for tax as well./ Now teh SNP are proposing to hmmer us again twice for daring to be ambitious, work hard and have no kids. I would be much better off doing nothing and having lots of kids.
138

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 12:51:15
147

Ah HM I take it your pretending to represent this couple now so lets play does this couple live in a band A or band F house then??? and do they only own one property?
139

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 12:52:58
145 HM/AM2/EV

I cant see who it is you are supposed to be representing here though??
140

Wolfman,

Kinross 17/03/2008 12:55:23
148#
D actually and yes just the one. But as I dare not to live in a city I also get hit for car tax and petrol tax because there is no public transport that can get me to work before 9.30am and would need to leave by 3.00pm. So whilst I might appear well off I do not actually have a lot left at the end of the month.
141

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 12:57:39
150 HM

And you dont blame the Tories nor Labour nor New Labour for this situation then? and you dont give a sh*t that if you were living in England your new council tax bill would now be 4% higher??
142

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 13:03:36
146. Only the nats think facts are useless and irrelevant.

Always have and always will.

You clearly think that denial is the way to win an argument so I'm done with you. Begone.
143

Wolfman,

17/03/2008 13:03:37
Quite frankly it has made absolutely no difference who has been in power (I did vote SNP at the last round of elections just in case you were wondering) Dinkys get hammered by all. Yes the 4% rise is much more favourable to teh 135% I am going to have to find.
144

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 13:05:32
151. But my income tax would be 3p lower.

And no public services will be cut to make up the shortfall of the LIT either.
145

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 13:08:47
153

Aye right!! so why didnt you do what all the other well off folk did and live off their share dividends??

We now have the incredible spin whereby rich folk are avoiding the tax due to their investments but are getting hammered at the same time because they earn too much. Did we have this same argument before the introduction of the council tax??? or the poll tax???
I am the only one who believes this p*sh is being made up as it goes along???
146

unbiased,

Back of Beyond 17/03/2008 13:09:13
Wolfman! Next month, I will be paying an extra 10% tax on my pension which I saved for all my life to subsidise you and your wife's 2% tax cut - I have also just had my Council Tax Bill of approximately £1500 - live in the country - 8 miles from the nearest town - over a mile from the nearest public road, have no public water or sewerage, no pavements, street lighting but I get my bin emptied (but not before I have to take my rubbish over a mile to the collection point). So what are you complaining about?
147

kimba,

17/03/2008 13:10:22
Under salmonds arrogant leadership you will soon be heading for the begging bowl economy!
148

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 13:11:23
154

Aye and if you are part of the majority then you will have a noticable reduction in yer tax burden.

As long as we remain in the union one thing is certain public services WILL BE CUT and I base that on the last 50 years of cuts after cuts after cuts in spite of taxes increacing exponentially above the rate of inflation now tell me I am wrong.
149

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 13:13:43
157

Oh look more FACTS.
150

Doh,

17/03/2008 13:17:04
#137 Mario

I wasnt having a go at Souter, he was just an example given in the article. As it happens if he rally does only pay £1930 council tax then he is actually paying less than myself.

Anyway to go on (but not at you! or Souter!)

It is funny that "non-doms" are being given the option of paying £30,000 or UK Income Tax - presumably opting for the lower of the two options.

Another example of one rule for the rich and another for the poor. This Labour government should be ashamed of themselves.

The Labour party even have the cheek to argue against a LIT because the UK government allow someone to earn £100K income from investments TAX FREE - oh another example of one rule for the rich and another for the poor.

I am off to work smarter now.


151

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 13:17:31
158. Spending has doubled in the past ten years, both at UK level and here.

Holyrood's budget is now £30bn and it was only £15bn when Holyrood opened.

So your talk of "cuts" is a joke.
152

Wolfman,

17/03/2008 13:19:07
Foulks - I haven't got any shares and I can assure I am not rich, How old is your car cos mines 10 years old next month. You might want to do some sums and look at the facts bafore being abusive. Unbiasedb - my 2% tax cut as you put it is the same 10% tax increase that you will suffer, and my mother is in the same boat as you. It also sounds as if you are my neighbour because we seem to share the same lack of public services and yet are expected to pay the same as those living in towns with good roads, public services, street lighting, rubbise collection, street sweeping, quick emergency services response (not the first time I have had to talk the ambulance to the location to assist an elderly neighbour)So now you know why I am complaining about paying so much more for what I already do not receive.
153

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 13:19:17
161

No it isnt and I have over 5 million witnesses how many do you have??
154

Busymale,

17/03/2008 13:23:08
I earn the national average of £26k a year and I'm not thinking of leaving.
155

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 13:24:39
163. Begone, silly child. Bored with your ignorant and pointless ranting now.
156

Miss H,

17/03/2008 13:24:48
164 The median ft salary - which is a better indication of what the 'normal' person earns - is just under 20 grand.

You would never know that from these debates would you?
157

ldopas,

cheshire 17/03/2008 13:27:46
Excellent.

When we finally get an independent England and cast off the backwards socialist scottish influence by kicking out Brown, Darling and all the other cronies, these people who want to achieve need merely move south and live with us.

We'll appreciate them a lot more than the socialist nightmare that independent Scotland will be (and is currently on the way to).
158

Miss H,

17/03/2008 13:29:17
162 You also should so some sums. How much do you think people in rural areas would have to contribute in local taxation if you were expected to pay for things like roads yourselves without a pretty massive subsidy from the centre?
159

ldopas,

cheshire 17/03/2008 13:32:28
Incidentally - a question to you.

Ive read this thread and others. Why is it come sort of p*****g contest to play up how poor you all are and how you hat anyone "rich". As if its some kind of credibility thing.

Do none of you aspire to try and better your lives, why are you so proud of settling for what youve got or taking off others?

All I read is complete negativity, that aint a good start for an independent Scotland. Whats your first act going to be, jail anyone with the temerity to make more that 40k a year?
160

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 13:33:25
167. England is leaving us behind economically (their GDP per capita is 30% more than ours, ffs) and our "fantastic" government has decided driving away the high-earners of the private sector is the answer. Excellent.
161

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 13:35:08
169. No, it's to drive out any and all who are against independence. Only room for 'true Scots' in an independent Scotland!
162

ldopas,

17/03/2008 13:36:37
170 Highland Mighty

Exactly. My post was a bit more viceral than I intended, apologies.

You lot should be aspiring and creating wealth. Youve got the culture, the resources (no rants about oil please) and certainly the brains. Instead all I read is rants about the "rich" and how proud some seem of their lowly status.

That is not a healthy thing for an economy.
163

Sam,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 13:36:37
It is a law of economics as reliable as the laws of gravity; MONEY = MOBILITY. When the Government Class determines that wealthy persons are sheep ready for the sheering, the sheep move on to a tax haven bringing their wealth with them. It is also a law in economics that IT TAKES MONEY TO MAKE MONEY. So the net result in taxing the rich is to increase cash flow to the Government Class for a short time until the cash resources of the wealthy move off shore. Then the revenue flow to the Government Class tapers off to less than what was there at first. The money supply that would have been available for commercial development is impacted. This results in increased interest rates on commercial loans because commerce must compete for fewer £. Over the long term this drags down new business investment and job creation. It further impacts the tax flow to the Government Class. A cycle is established where taxes go up as tax revenue goes down. This is because the Working Class will readily if unhappily adjust to life with less but the Government Class will never willingly so do.
164

Wolfman,

17/03/2008 13:36:46
168, per mile less than now.
169, spot on. If you work for it then you deserve to be allowed to spend it. You already contribute more the more you earn and thats 40% on everything over £40k
165

Conway,

17/03/2008 13:37:00
The sky will fall down the moon will turn black and the sun will turn red like blood if the SNP run Scotland.....now isnt that what the press and certain companys said before the Scottish election ,buisness will always go where the money is.
166

Miss H,

17/03/2008 13:39:00
139 It is a laugh isn't it? LIT was always a tax cut - the biggest tax cut in a generation it was sold as in the election. Labour however argued that it would hit hardworking families. Then they started to backtrack on that last week to say that it would mean cuts in services. This week it seems that the argument is shifting back to the SNP taxing rich people unfairly. If you add all those argumets together what comes over is that it is a tax cut which will not benefit the rich - ergo benefits those on lower incomes. Which is exactly the message the SNP is trying to get over.

No wonder the SNP are doing so well in the polls. The Opposition is doing all their work for them.
167

ldopas,

17/03/2008 13:39:02
173 Sam,Edinburgh

Thanks for making my point. You used the word "class" god knows how many times. Your worldview is why Scotland will struggle.
168

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 13:39:39
162

While I was googling for information on council tax costs for comparrison with wages I came across this interesting wee article and funnily enough it uses band D housing as a comparison.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/bills/31-councilTax/b31s2-introd-fm.pdf

Do you and yer Wife fit anywhere in there?? and if not you could always buy a bigger hoose and gain a huge benefit in tax savings as well as property price increases but only in Scotland and only with an SNP government funnily enough. Obviously if your 3% IT increase is greater than a 4% increace in a band D council tax then you can well afford a bigger hoose on such a large salary. Why do you live in a band D hoose anyway when you can obviously afford better???
169

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 13:40:59
173. Excellent post and I can't wait for the nat arguments against it!

Foulkes, get in there!

174. Higher rate starts at £36,000. And that's a LOT of people who will soon be paying 43%.
170

Miss H,

17/03/2008 13:41:35
169 Perhaps you don't understand that everybody is actually paying the same rate - 3%.
171

An Beal Bacht,

17/03/2008 13:44:15
Now let's just recollect who's been driving wealth away from Scotland to the tune of 1 billion quid in the N.E.!
172

ldopas,

17/03/2008 13:44:40
180 Miss H,17/03/2008 13:41:35
169 Perhaps you don't understand that everybody is actually paying the same rate - 3%.


and maybe you dont understand that 3% of 10k is a lot less than 3% of 100k
173

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 13:44:42
170

Aye we all know the difference between being English and being Scottish within the UK you really dont have to highlight this FACT anymore.
Funnily enough some of us see Independence as the answer including independent think tanks apparently.
174

ldopas,

17/03/2008 13:46:09
I'll just point out that since my post on negativity. People just keep on posting it. Aspiration = evil. Not in my world it doesnt. Not aspiring is evil.
175

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 13:46:42
182

Yep its called having a tax system based on the ability to pay can you think of a better principle in which to tax people???? how about using a tax method which is incapable of actually collecting the correct amounts due would that be better??
176

ldopas,

17/03/2008 13:49:49
185 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

And you point is what exactly? Of course its the tax system. and ability to pay is a decent criteria.

Ive never moaned about this, if youd care to read my posts.

What Im talking about is the moaning going on about the "rich" rather than any sign of people wanting to actually get of their butts and do something themselves.

Taking is easy, creating is hard.
177

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 13:49:56
173

If a wealthy person is not already sheltering his or her income from tax then that wealthy person will be the only one on the planet so who is this paragon of imbecility who hasnt cottoned on to the many tax dodges used by his peers??????
178

Miss H,

17/03/2008 13:51:02
173 So how do you explain that Denmark, Sweden and Finland are regularly rated above the UK in global competitiveness reports?
179

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 13:51:23
176. What don't you get?

LIT (or NIT as it should be called) will hit the country's most successful with a 43% (+ 11% NIC = 54%) income tax rate, taking far more in tax than CT ever could.

It will also hit two-or-more-income households and housesharers, neither group being high-earners.

It will also mean the final demise of any local accountability and will open the door for Holyrood to have absolute control over all public spending, local and national.

Are you ready for Holyrood governments to start favouring councils run by their own parties?

The nats have never stopped accusing Labour in Westminster "of punishing Scotland for voting SNP", now watch that accusation spread across Scotland.
180

ldopas,

17/03/2008 13:52:49
187 Foulkes Off the CyberNat

See this is the problem with reading to many tabloids. The huge bulk of people who earn above average salaries DONT hide it.
181

Miss H,

17/03/2008 13:53:10
186 But what supporters of council tax are arguing for is that people on low incomes should pay a higher proportion of their income in taxation than people in the top 10% of earners. That's the way it is now. Under the SNP proposals people would pay the same proportion of their income - no more, no less.
182

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 13:53:16
186

The unionist trolls or those pretending to be unionists are arguing both sides of the fence against the LIT and using arguments whereby the wealthy are avoiding the tax but at the same time are being hit hard with it. What thread are you reading??
183

An Beal Bacht,

17/03/2008 13:55:20
My concern is that with the coming melt down in the international banking sector (Bear Stearns needed a bail out this week) all those wealthy Yanks are gonna be coming here to weather the storm and will, inevitably, drive up property prices further. Aye - a veritable tsunami of rich Americans are about to descend upon our shores putting inflationary pressure on prices and wages. So watch out - we'll all be paying 43% soon enough.
184

ldopas,

17/03/2008 13:55:25
189 Highland Mighty
Are you ready for Holyrood governments to start favouring councils run by their own parties?

Well luckily I dont care because Im english, well aspire to be once we remove the idiot scottish gang who rule our parliament! ;-)
185

Miss H,

17/03/2008 13:55:52
189 It will also mean that the vast majority of people who currently pay local taxation will pay less - which is what you actually hate about it - because it will make an SNP election victory almost certain, especially if our opponents continue to perform at their current dismal level.

186

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 13:55:57
188. Is it 'random statistic time' already?
187

Col.Chi Man,

17/03/2008 13:56:28
#183 Cybernat

"independent think tanks"

Is there more than one? Also, do you really think it's independent?
188

ldopas,

17/03/2008 13:57:14
193 An Beal Bacht,

Yes it will be awful, all those nasty wealth people bringing their vast capital to spend in YOUR economy. Honestly, what planet do you live on?
189

Miss H,

17/03/2008 13:57:58
198 We are not. People will pay exactly the same level of tax - 3%.
190

ldopas,

17/03/2008 14:00:02
198 FunkyDunky

Bravo - well said.

Unfortunately people here seem to think that if you have wealth you with stole it or inherited it. Got it because you work damn hard and take risks, they dont understand it!
191

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:02:10
190

Now yer living in denial.
25 billion a year lost to tax evasion whereby 2bn is lost in benefit fraud.

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=79862&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
192

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 14:02:21
188. Just looked your 'stat' up and it appears that last year, the UK was second in the world in 'global competitiveness' but have dropped several places this year because of...ready?....high taxes!
193

brownlie,

glasgow 17/03/2008 14:02:56
could some-one please point out to the ubiquitous Highland that LIT is instead of the council tax as it seems to be beyond his grasp or intellect.
194

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:03:24
197

There are billions of em I am for example an independent think tank of one and so are you.
195

Alan B,

17/03/2008 14:06:52
Highland Mighty : I think ur figures are wrong. (179/189)

"Higher rate starts at £36,000"
Herald states
"From April 2008,the 10% rateof income tax will be scrapped, while the current 22% rate will be cut to 20%. At thesametime,the40%ratewillbe raised from its current level of £38,335, the level of earnings at which it begins to be levied, to £43,000."

http://www.sundayherald.com/business/businessnews/display.var.1284200.0.the_winners_and_losers_from_browns_goodbye.php

(although i thought it was £34,600+the allowance of £5225 making £39,825)

"LIT (or NIT as it should be called) will hit the country's most successful with a 43% (+ 11% NIC = 54%) income tax rate, taking far more in tax than CT ever could."
From my understanding, what u state is a misunderstanding of NI. People in the higer rate are not liable for NI (or were not i think there is a newish 1% rate).

"At the same time, NI contributions, which are currently set at 11% up to an upper earnings limit of £645 a week, or £33,540ayear,willalsorisetothe £43,000 limit in April 2009." (from herald article above.)

Also check:
http://www.bytestart.co.uk/content/taxlegal/9_15/national-insurance-2008-9.shtml
196

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:06:55
203

And yet the UK INCOME TAX hasnt moved up or down so which taxes are you referring to?????
197

ldopas,

17/03/2008 14:07:32
202 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,Edinburgh

Tax evasion is not just the sin of the rich.
198

Robert,

Kirriemuir 17/03/2008 14:09:11
This has caused a lot of comment but when I read that those whose income is in the millions and paying slight more than I for CC when my income is less than £25k then there certainly is an anomalous situation prevailing at this moment and it sure is time it was rectified. If those types wish to flee the country for selfish or percuniary reasons then good riddence yet ironically, many pensioners from England are moving to Scotland to benefit from the better and less costly welfare system. It is, indeed, a crazy society in which we live. I am glad the government is re-examining this appalling injustice.
199

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:11:01
208

No?? how about the impact of tax evasion by the rich compared to tax evasion by the poor?? or doesnt that matter??
200

ldopas,

17/03/2008 14:12:13
209 Robert,Kirriemuir

And people earning "millions" who evade tax should be punished. We agree.

But you, like others here, seem to extrapolate the fact that of the total number of working people, a tiny tiny number who earn "millions" and a percentage of that tiny number who evade, dictates tax policy for the entire economy. Ludicrous.
201

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:13:17
Anybody who is going to dodge the LIT is already dodging their present income tax those who are paying a large % of their income in council tax are going to see a significant benefit and all the lies spin and b*llshit individual stories of tax discrepencies cannot hide this mathematical FACT.
202

ldopas,

17/03/2008 14:14:06
210 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,Edinburgh

Strange moarlity you've got. You seem to be saying that tax evasion for the rich is wrong, but ok for the poor. Tax evasion is tax evasion.

What next, people who murder coming from harsh backgrounds should be let off, while public school murdered should be hanged?????
203

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 14:14:30
207. There were three changes to UK income tax this year. Look them up.

And I was talking about taxes in general being too high and stifling competitiveness in the market.

Right at the time when the SNP are spending every penny they have and are increasing taxes on multiple-income households and individal high-earners - the hardest working and most successful sections of society!

206. HMRC says it's £36k but the actual figure is not really the point.
204

An Beal Bacht,

17/03/2008 14:17:14
99 ldeopath, 17/03/2008 13:57:14

Aye - the problem for Scotland will be how to manage unparalleled growth while resisting inflationary pressures. Obviously we'll need our own currency - although the English will probably ditch their currency and adopt ours. Nevertheless, it will be interesting times.
205

Alan B,

17/03/2008 14:18:38
#206 "but the actual figure is not really the point"
the NI figure means that rather than the 53% u state it will be 44% abit bit of a difference and that is why i pointed it out.

206

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:18:53
213

No I am not I am not even implying it are you down to telling porkies now??

Why are you trying to evade the question with an obscure accusation?? the effect of rich people evading income tax will be felt much more than poor people evading income tax now wont it????? in fact the implications of the rich avoiding tax would completely overshadow any effect of the poor avoiding paying tax plus all benefit fraud combined would it not????
207

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:19:57
214

But not to the basic rate of income tax which is exactly what the LIT proposal is so yer argument is mute isnt it??? not like for like at all.
208

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 14:21:03
215. Ah, one of the more deluded nats, alongside the screaming HEN BROON and Jackie Priest.

The UK is one of the world's most successful economies yet Salmond absolutely guarantees that he will be able to do better.

Maybe I should reel off all those stats, facts and figures about the UK and its economy again.......
209

Robert,

Kirriemuir 17/03/2008 14:21:39
A postcript here and comment to one of the above posts; those who earn more money by no means do more work as other factors prevail. GPs who are exceedingly well remunerated for the nature of their work are not as important to society as those who collect the dustbins and this has been proved, yet look at the comparisons in salaries and the physical and mental effort it requires to hold down one of those low status jobs. If people were paid to the value they are to society and the effort required to do their job those who collect the public's garbage would be at the top of the list.
210

Nippy sweetie,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:22:15
Sick fed up of this. Why should my husband who works 6/7 days a week and earns his corn and myself who work full time should be paying YET AGAIN.

When will the SNP distinguish between people who have worked their behind off to get where they are and the very rich who have seven figure salaries.

I am sick fed up of our taxes subsidising the idle and wasteful public sector, and lazy people in this country who don't do more than a days work in their lifetime and then expect the rest of us to bankroll them.

Oh yes and let's not even mention the £400 (£700??) million shortfall..........sure they can persuade Gord to cough the up.
211

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:22:53
214

There you go with the lies again. The SNP proposals for LIT are a TAX REDUCTION for the majority the fact that the oppostion claim there is a tax hole compared to the present system shows they agree with this so how come you dont?? You yourself have argued there is a tax hole so how come your arguing the opposite now???
212

ldopas,

17/03/2008 14:23:04
215 An Beal Bacht

Good luck with that seeing as your growth is way behind the english.

You are right though, you will have your own currency - the euro.
213

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 14:23:23
219. Strewth. Basic rate has gone down from 22% to 20% with the end of the 10% rate. Threshold earnings have also gone up.

Research. Before. You. Post.
214

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:26:02
220

I thought you showed us all that in fact its England who are benefitting from the UKs so called success and not Scotland at all.
ref your post at 170!!!
215

Michael Stuart,

Stellenbosch 17/03/2008 14:26:07
I must say that I read the Scotsman (online) regularly and enjoy the reader responses perhaps more than some of the news articles themselves. In the above item however I feel your reporter has made logical errors comparing as it were apples with oranges. For example to imply that the unfortunate Sir Fred Goodwin will have to pay GBP 120 000 INCOME TAX in place of GBP 2338 COUNCIL TAX is surely incorrect. Under the existing regime I assume that the unhappy Sir Fred already has to pay income tax IN ADDITION to his Council Tax. I further assume that Sir Fred's Income Tax is paid to Westminster and that the Council Tax to a Scottish revenue authority. If I understand the situation correctly, under the new regime Sir Fred will pay no Council Tax but will pay his Income Tax to a Scottish Receiver of Revenue. I deduce from all this that, given current Income Tax rates would remain the same in Scotland as in England, Sir Fred will pay the same amount of tax on his annual income plus tax on the additional GBP2338 which he retains as income since he does not have to pay Council Tax. Sir Fred already probably pays something very near GBP 120 000 as tax and we can only sympathise with him but whether he will pay a lot more does not depend on scrapping Council Tax but on whether the SNP will introduce a more punitive tax regime for the wealthy than the existing one. That in turn will depend on whether Westminster agrees to the whole package in the first place.
216

ldopas,

17/03/2008 14:27:58
218 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,Edinburgh

Figures to prove your rabid assertions please.

And also, define rich to me please, in your terms.

Because you see this huge problem of millions and millions of rich people running round not paying taxes. I dont. Yes there is a problem, but its finite. So Im starting to think you think anyone earning ofer 35k is rich, am I right?
217

ldopas,

17/03/2008 14:29:32
221 Robert,Kirriemuir

A doctor is not as skilled as a dustman shock. what on EARTH are you on about?
218

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:29:49
225

THEY DONT COME INTO EFFECT UNTIL APRIL YOU MORON SO HOW CAN YOU SAY:

188. Just looked your 'stat' up and it appears that last year, the UK was second in the world in 'global competitiveness' but have dropped several places this year because of...ready?....high taxes
219

Alan B,

17/03/2008 14:29:57
One thing to notice is if someone earns £90,000 pays £2000 council tax they will roughly pay £2550 with the new system.
220

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:33:18
228

There you go again with the porkies stop telling me what it is I am saying I am making it plain enough for even an ignorant lying git like you to understand. Now please tell me you believe that poor people can avoid paying more taxes than rich people please go on state that here on this thread now.
221

An Beal Bacht,

17/03/2008 14:34:41
220 Hogland Matey, 17/03/2008 14:21:03

I feel your pain - I can empathize - getting yourself all worked up into a lather over a piece of speculative journalism. You fear the future even though your countrymen assure you the future looks bright. Yet you remain unconvinced, preferring to believe the scare mongers and doomsday merchants.

Aye - for you and those of your ilk the sky is falling. For me and mine - the clouds are lifting and the sun is beginning to shine through, dispelling a long and gloomy winter.


222

Robert,

Kirriemuir 17/03/2008 14:35:58
Two other points which seem to be judiciously ignored,

It is not the usage by individuals that is the criterion but rather the cost of running a 'public' (rather than individual) service, and how it should be financed. I do not expect anyone on a lower income to be paying the same as myself which this is socialism; if anyone living in this country is a capitalist then they are sponging on the poor.

The consideration here is not about tax dodgers (sure wish I knew how to do it) but about fair taxation.
223

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:36:37
234

He doesnt believe any of this sh*t he is only pretending to christ how many more times has this got to be pointed out??
224

An Beal Bacht,

17/03/2008 14:39:13
224 ldopas, 17/03/2008 14:23:04 writes:

"You are right though, you will have your own currency - the euro."

That has yet to be determined.
225

ldopas,

17/03/2008 14:40:01
233 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,Edinburgh

Well clearly you have no figures to back up your 6th form political worldview. Hence why you resort to gross insults.

All I asked for were figures to back up you claims, and you wrote that insulting garbage.

I proferred that you must have a low threshold for what you considered rich, as you appear to think there are these billions of rish people avoiding tax. You again didnt answer that but lost it big time.

I suggest you refrain from posting, until you can grow up a bit and argue without crass insults.
226

ldopas,

17/03/2008 14:43:37
233 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,Edinburgh
Now please tell me you believe that poor people can avoid paying more taxes than rich people please go on state that here on this thread now.


Unlike you I will answer the questions.

I never EVER said that. Tax evasion is rampant, and do you know who are the worst offenders. Ready. A sector of people you have not even mentioned yet as you argue in the black and white, rich/poor 6th form politics manner.

The middle classes.

And I'll say again for you. Slowly this time. Tax....evasion....by....anyone.....is.....completely.....wrong.

Ok got that!
227

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:46:54
238

No figures??? 25 bn income tax fraud compared to 2bn in benefit fraud and now you want to tell us all that both are perpetrated by the poor to the extent that the level of fraud perpetrated by the rich is not significant in comparison??? and you base this on what again???
228

Lesley Hinds,

17/03/2008 14:47:55
#232 FunkyDunky
"If you were stuck on a desert island would you rather take a binman with you, or a GP."

I would rather take someone who could repair the radio. I could also pay them less than a doctor becasue they dont have such a strong trade union.
229

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 14:48:28
238. He has no evidence, just what he reads on the nat messageboards (they are something, I can tell you!).

This LIT/NIT would be a major problem to the economy, especially with a tax-cutting Tory government on its way. The SNP will never cut taxes, only centralise them. They sell LIT/NIT as a "tax cut" but somehow neglect to say that local revenue will then need to be topped up from central funds which will take money from other services.

And, again, it punishes the multiple-income households and the high-earners - the hardest working and most successful sections of society.
230

An Beal Bacht,

17/03/2008 14:50:25
Aye - in a few more years (perhaps months) when at last independence has returned and Berwick is once more a prosperous Scottish town we'll still have sheep - but they will be well fed and content.
231

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 14:51:18
240. "25 bn income tax fraud compared to 2bn in benefit fraud" - No £ symbol on your keyboard? Where are you posting from?

And to highlight 'massive income tax fraud' while the SNP are planning to introduce just that very tax does not help your argument. All it does is highlight yet another disadvantage of NIT over CT!
232

ldopas,

17/03/2008 14:51:37
240 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,Edinburgh

Calm down, you are going to give yourself a hernia.

Yes, you quoted 25 billion.

Then went on to rant about the evil rish evading taxes. And tried to mitigate any other sector.

I merely asked you to tell us all how the tax evasion splits by income bracket. Ie back up your assertions that the vast majority of it is from the rich.

And also tell us what levels you consider rich. If you thing over 20k is rish then yes your assertions may have some validity as there is a huge number over that threshold.

Do me a favour. Either answer this, or go away. But please try and avoid the chilidh insults. Facts please, not tantrums.
233

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:51:40
239

I know you havent said it I am asking if you are ready to state that now as your argument very strongly points to this conclusion.
And you are dead dead wrong the biggest proportion of missing taxes is from the SUPER RICH as was pointed out on news night only 3 days ago.
And whats worse is there is no political will to chase after it instead we get program after program introduced to go after benefit fraud instead we are even encouraged to inform on our neighbours if benefit fraud is suspected of course its harder to know if yer neighbour is perpetrating tax fraud especially if its being conducted abroad as most of it is.
234

Lesley Hinds,

still on that desert island 17/03/2008 14:52:35
#241
Correction I would rather take a Fund Manager because they are so har working, talented and ingenious they would soon get me off the desert island or sell me futures in a property development near the palm tree.
235

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:52:49
245 see 246.
236

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 14:54:05
I think NE and the NW of England will see quite a few companies move in from here, if this tax comes in.
237

Robert,

Kirriemuir 17/03/2008 14:54:27
#229 & #232. You do both elect to miss the point; what matters to society is not skills as such but value and the analogy of being in the desert, well, I would sure prefer to have the dustman as my companion than the medic as I am convinced that my chances of survival would be much improved. What has education to do with value? Education has only two meanings; snobbery and opportunity (now this should bring the worms out of the woodwork)!
238

ldopas,

17/03/2008 14:56:41
243 An Beal Bacht,17/03/2008

Is that what you want to go away...Berwick....have it I'll wrap it for you! ;-)
239

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:57:37
244

Tax avoidance is illegal therefore those who avoid taxes should be persued and proscecuted and that applies for any tax regime why should LIT be any different?? the problem isnt tax avoidance it seems to be the lack of political will to persue it where it would do the most good.
240

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 14:58:43
249

But you cant prove it can you so its just yer opinion based on nothing you can present to back it up.
241

ldopas,

17/03/2008 15:00:52
246 Foulkes Off the CyberNat
I know you havent said it I am asking if you are ready to state that now as your argument very strongly points to this conclusion.


You are asking me to state what? You refer to an argument but dont say what. Explain the question you are asking me in clearer terms and I will answer it.
242

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 15:01:14
253. I can't prove that companies and bosses tend to go where tax is lowest??

Not into economics and business studies then?
243

ldopas,

17/03/2008 15:02:36
248 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,Edinburgh

Quoting a story of a TV programme you cant completely recall is not giving me tax evasion figures by income bracket.
244

Robert,

Kirriemuir 17/03/2008 15:03:39
#222 Nippy Sweetie; try not to take matters too personally and try to understand that most of us work hard to earn our corn but we are not workaholics nor seeking to make a fortune which I agree would be nice.
245

An Beal Bacht,

17/03/2008 15:04:32
251 ldopas, 17/03/2008 14:56:41 writes:

"Is that what you want to go away...Berwick....have it I'll wrap it for you! ;-)"

Very kind - but it isn't me who wants it - it's the people there who voted for it. Aye - while this article speculates that"high flyers" might "flee" and Highland Mighty fears that companies may relocate south of the border the reality is that towns south of the border are voting to be Scottish.

It makes yer heart glad - does it no?
246

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 15:05:09
254

Ok here it is again

"Now please tell me you believe that poor people can avoid paying more taxes than rich people please go on state that here on this thread now."

Are you ready to state this? as everything you have argued on this subject points to this conclusion.
247

ldopas,

17/03/2008 15:06:18
250 Robert,Kirriemuir

You arent serious. Value?

Well heres my take. I can empty my bin. I pick it up, find a dump, tip it up. Not very tricky.

As for a heart transplant.

Anyway you take your dustman to your deserted island. Im sure he can be of use there to you ensuring you split out bottles from paper.
248

ldopas,

17/03/2008 15:09:59
257 Buckpool Loon,Cheshire
Idopas - So what would you recommend as a ceiling over which you would pay no tax


This isnt even a sane question. I cant even take it seriously.

Firstly its a good idea to actually read the arguments prior to posting. Ive already stated that tax evasion is wrong, whoever does it. Got that?

So your question makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

There is NO ceiling over which people should not pay tax. There could be an argument for a ceiling UNDER which people pay no tax.
249

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 15:10:19
259. They don't "want to be Scottish", they just want Scottish public services.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/7248529.stm

Big difference.
250

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 15:11:00
256

Tax evasion figures by income bracket?????
If that were available then the tax evasion would be impossible the tax would be collectable and there would be no tax evasion problem to deal with are you now implying that tax evasion doesnt actually happen???

Are you suggesting tax evasion figures should be quantifiable on an individual basis in order to state that the rich benefit more from tax evasion than the poor???? and that the impact on the rich avoiding tax is not measureable than the impact of tax avoidance by those less well off because of this???
251

Lesley Hinds,

just got off that desert island 17/03/2008 15:11:56
#261 Idopas

I have taken a radio technician to my desert island and he fixed the radio.

I gave him a £5 tip and suggested he become a hard working, talented, ingenious Fund Manager like myself.

We both agree the the medical profession should be deregulated so as to reduce the cost of doctors.
The BMA controls the supply doctors and restricts competiton with their national pay settlements.
I think they are a nest of communists.
252

ldopas,

17/03/2008 15:12:43
259 An Beal Bacht,17/03/2008


Not really. the loss of a poor town to you lot is great. Its no surprise they would rather go to the lands of free handouts rather than try and graft to make something of the town.

We've got more of these places to give you. Fancy Whalley Range? ;-)
253

,

17/03/2008 15:16:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
254

An Beal Bacht,

17/03/2008 15:16:57
263 Highland Mighty, 17/03/2008 15:10:19

Spin it however you like HM - the people of Berwick know that the future for Scotland is bright and they want to be part of it.
255

Media 1,

cape town 17/03/2008 15:17:44
The SNP eh!
Not a political party, but rather a poor liberation movement hell bent on freeing a nation that is already free..Shame!
256

Robert,

Kirriemuir 17/03/2008 15:17:52
#261 Why worry about transplants when a decent diet would solve most health problems. Do you know that there are more deaths caused in hospitals through accident and mistake than there are deaths on the public highways? The message here is obvious; if you are ill take a walk along the centre carriageway of the motorway; this might not cure what ails you but it sure will increase your chances of survival. Does this help to prove my point?
257

ldopas,

17/03/2008 15:18:46
264 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,Edinburgh

Translated - I havent actually got any figures to back up my arguments. So I'll just post lots of questions back to ldopas and put words in his mouth.

Nice try.

Its quite simple. The goverment assess how much income by income bracket. What they take minus what they thought they'd take is down to evasion. Of course there are standard deviations to account for government inefficiency etc.

But the long and short of it is you are pushing your argument because you are envious of the "rich" and anyone who tries to make something of themselves. Ie they are automatically on the fiddle.

So I'll say it again. Fiddling occurs in all income brackets and its ALL wrong. Please read that.
258

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 15:19:38
269

Tell us all again why you think Cape Town is in the West???
259

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 15:19:53
268. Read. The. Article.

Hang on, are you Foulkes?
260

My Stereotype of ldopas ,

Cardiff 17/03/2008 15:20:10
269
She/he is the classic racist religious bigot. They shout the flithy inhuman slogans, but when challenged have got nothing to throw back and no decent arguments. Primarily because there are none!
261

ldopas,

17/03/2008 15:20:42
267 My Stereotype of ldopas ,Cardiff


Very good narcussus. Internet stalking is not something to be proud of.

If I thought you had a clue where scotland was, then I might engage you.

Begone.
262

An Beal Bacht,

17/03/2008 15:22:58
266 ldopas, 17/03/2008 15:12:43 writes:

"259 An Beal Bacht,17/03/2008

Not really. the loss of a poor town to you lot is great. Its no surprise they would rather go to the lands of free handouts rather than try and graft to make something of the town.

We've got more of these places to give you. Fancy Whalley Range? ;-)"

Why do "you lot" try so hard to convince Scots of the folly of independence when you don't even want to keep your own towns? Very strange.
263

ldopas,

17/03/2008 15:24:26
270 Robert,Kirriemuir

Ok, so lets summarise. Binmen are more valuable than doctors. and if you are ill you should just commit suicide.

Tell me, what colour is the sky on your planet?
264

ldopas,

17/03/2008 15:26:03
276 An Beal Bacht,17/03/2008

Thats where you are wrong. Have you been down here lately.

We really want you to go. I know hardly anyone who doesnt want scottish independence among the english. We just want the moaning to stop.
265

My Stereotype of ldopas ,

Cardiff 17/03/2008 15:26:21
ldopas
I Gots People Skills

Clearly you are an idiot.

I am 33, well done.
I have the odd grey hair, thats hereditary in my family.
Im not at all bald and wont go bald.

Now to the ridiculous stereotyping:

The teeth insult is something that is trotted out by igoramii. I go to the dentist twice a year minimum as most of us do and we have both an NHS dental system and a private system. You dont have that, meaning a lot of your people wont be able to afford to go to the dentist. My teeth are white and in great shape. So absolutely wrong.

266

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 15:26:28
271

Yer avoiding the crux of the argument yet again.
FACT the Government believe that they are losing out on approx 25bn in income taxation.
Income taxation comes from taxing income therefore the bigger the income the bigger the tax therefore the impact of tax evasion will be felt more by somebody who is avoiding paying bigger taxes than somebody who is avoiding paying smaller taxes.

Here is a wee question for you how many tax avoiders earning say 30000 a year would it take to equal the impact of a single tax avoider due 1 million in income tax?????
267

Miss H,

17/03/2008 15:27:45
255 No you can't. If that was the case the Scandinavian countries would be destitute. However they are not. The trick to being competitive seems to be to lower taxes on business taxation - not personal taxation.

You of course say that the SNP will never cut taxes. It is unfortunate for you that the SNP has already done so by removing business rates for small business. It is also unfortunate for you that the LIT represents a tax cut fro the majority as well. I would agree that this does not indicate that the SNP has an agenda to cut personal taxation - they don't - it is simply a response to the unceasing above inflation council tax increases of the past years.
268

ldopas,

17/03/2008 15:28:14
279 My Stereotype of ldopas ,Cardiff

Well thanks for saving me the time answering you.

I have also reported you by the way.
269

My Stereotype of ldopas ,

Cardiff 17/03/2008 15:28:15
Is this ldopas what you Brits call AM2?
270

Media 1,

cape town 17/03/2008 15:28:32
Foulkes

As I said, the SNP are a liberation movement who are attempting to liberate a nation that has been free for hundreds of years! They are not a political party, which is why they are finding it difficult to run the country.

271

Robert,

Kirriemuir 17/03/2008 15:29:35
Idopas; I salute you (now from where di I get that greeting)! You are putting up a good defence under this constant barrage so well done, but don't forget the workers! Meantime, I am off to imbibe a well brewed cuppa but nice to have engaged with you. I look forward to seeing more comments from you on other topics.
272

Miss H,

17/03/2008 15:30:08
277 That's a fair argument actually. Would you rather have someone to treat your typhoid or avoid infection in the first place by living in a clean environment?
273

Miss H,

17/03/2008 15:30:48
284 So you didn't see the opinion polls over the weekend?
274

My Stereotype of ldopas ,

17/03/2008 15:31:13
Read what ldopas thinks of religion.

RE: My Stereotype of ldopas - 2/21/2008 5:56:05 AM
love the way you make the point that as Im highly educated Im more likely to be an atheist. I agree. People with a brain and some education behind them can see religion is ridiculous. Maybe you need to go get some.
275

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 17/03/2008 15:33:02
#281 Miss H

Please enlighten me about this 'removal of business rates for small businesses'?
276

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 15:34:07
271

Did you know that the easiest way to avoid paying a single penny in income tax is to remain in the country for 90 days or less. Now how easy would that be for somebody having to work a 5 day week compared to somebody who can turn up whenever they feel like it? and can work from abroad as easily as they can work from the UK???
277

My Stereotype of ldopas ,

Cardiff 17/03/2008 15:35:16
If you wish to find out the origins of ldopas, well log onto this website. We also hate this idiot.

www.annoyatorium.com
278

Media 1,

cape town 17/03/2008 15:35:24
Miss H

Opinion polls? lmfao

What I do see though, is a country that is still part of the union.

I am passionate about Scotland, and I will not permit people like you to change my opinion. Whilst you run about and treat your sad wee mind to anti English stories and ancient rhetoric, I will continue to celebrate the amazing fact that I come from the most terrific country in the world!!!!

Now away and chase some ancient people back to England to think again....Saddo
279

ldopas,

17/03/2008 15:35:34
280 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,Edinburgh

Lordy, we are getting nowhere.

I asked for some official figures from you.

You keep posing questions like how many 30k earners evading = a 1 million evader. Its totally ludicrous. I have no clue, how much is the high earner evading, what tax reliefs do the 30k people get?

But that still doesnt give a breakdown in the figures I asked you for. Or FACTS as i like to call them.

Flingind back spurious questions based on your prejudices with no facts, is not a strong argument.
280

Miss H,

17/03/2008 15:36:34
289 Read it here:http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2008/02/11094640/1



281

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 15:36:37
284

Your opinions would have a bigger impact if you knew that Cape Town was in South Africa and wasnt regarded as being in the West.
Looking good for yet another HM/AM2/EV candidate????
282

Media 1,

cape town 17/03/2008 15:36:39
I spend 88 days per annum in Scotland! And I love every minute of it...
283

Miss H,

17/03/2008 15:37:25
292 You don't 'see' anything from Cape Town.
284

ldopas,

17/03/2008 15:37:44
291 My Stereotype of ldopas ,Cardiff

We dont hate here, we debate narcussus.

For information - this troll is a racist and a homophobe from the US the posters and webmasters of another forum ran off. Ignore her.
285

My Stereotype of ldopas ,

17/03/2008 15:37:50
296 So what. stupid dork
286

An Beal Bacht,

17/03/2008 15:38:05
273 Highland Mighty, 17/03/2008 15:19:53 writes:

"268. Read. The. Article."

Article HM? From the BBC? Yes they'll tell me the truth of it I'm sure. This would be the same BBC that rewrites Scottish History:

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Fury-at-BBC39s-English-history.3862893.jp

and fakes poll results:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20070722/ai_n19386129

The people voted HM - end of. The BBC can spin until hell freezes over it won't change the result.

287

Media 1,

Cape Town 17/03/2008 15:39:44
Foulkes

You lost me, kinda like the party you support so blindly!

Miskien moet jy wakker word boet!

Kaap Staad is in die wes van ons land, het jy dit nie weet nie? lmafo

Now why not go and burn a St George cross or sing a song about sending some English people home to think again, or whatever it is you lot do.
288

My Stereotype of ldopas ,

Cardiff 17/03/2008 15:41:23
Come on the snp boot the Brits out of Scotland.
The USA is behind Alex salmond and wishes him all the best.
289

Media 1,

cape town 17/03/2008 15:42:03
Miss H

By your thinking, you dont see anything in Iraq from Scotland!

As I said, go and sing a song about sending some English folk home to think again, or watch Braveheart and cry about the myth therein...Poor wee soul
290

An Beal Bacht,

17/03/2008 15:42:30
278 ldopas, 17/03/2008 15:26:03 writes:

276 An Beal Bacht,17/03/2008

"We really want you to go. I know hardly anyone who doesnt want scottish independence among the english. We just want the moaning to stop."

No moaning from me my friend - I'm feeling pretty good about our impending independence. But I've got to ask - why are you posting here?
291

My Stereotype of ldopas ,

17/03/2008 15:43:13
303
Who the hell do you think you are? go wash your face then come back and say something clean, rat ass.
292

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 17/03/2008 15:43:22
#294 Miss H

Ah, it is a property tax rebate. My house is a registered office - does that mean I won't have to pay CT or LIT?
293

New Town Resident,

17/03/2008 15:44:25
Neither the article nor all these posts seem to address the issue of how residency is counted. While Scotland is still part of the UK what is to stop the high earner from;

1. Having residence in England (say a small flat in London)
2. Simply having a second home in Scotland (say a large estate)

How many days do they have to spend in Scotland before they have to pay full local income tax? How on earth can this be checked out?

Surely this is the way the high earners will tackle this - most of them are bound to have property in England anyway - rather than "leave the country".
294

My Stereotype of ldopas ,

Cardiff 17/03/2008 15:45:17
snp is the team for all you scots .ignore pompas readings from ldopas and his type.
295

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 15:47:10
293

No answers eh? took you long enough to reach that conclusion. Yer obviously no interested in debating at all you would rather spend all day denying the obvious.
You cannot tag tax evasion figures on an individual basis without knowing that individuals tax details and if that individuals tax details are known then there is no evasion so whats left???
A 25 bn hole in tax collection and you would have us believe that its down to small and medium income earners and not large to super large income earners in spite of the fact that income is taxed at sourse for the vast majority of small and medium sized income earners whereas the majority of large and super large income earners are not.
You must be a unionist with your level of self denial.
296

Nippy sweetie,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 15:47:20
Miss H - #281

More broken promises, SNP said they would abolish rates but it is reduced only. They also have not confirmed they will abolish the lower band next year, I wonder why.....and we have to apply, send forms and wait for relief.

It is a step forward but again the promise and reality are very different.
297

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 15:47:49
300. You keep cracking on with that denial just like all the other nats.

Nationalists: "Independence is imminent and has rapidly growing support!"

Reality: SNP down 4% on the Nov poll with their lead over Labour dropping from 11% then to 7% now.

Support for independence down 2% on pre-election polls and support for the status-quo up 5%. And that's after nine months of Salmond trying to convince us that the UK is bad for Scotland!

Only 0.5% have bothered to read the SNP's flagship and much-publicised 'White Paper on Independence' (and that's the SNP's own figures so we can probably halve that.)

Only 640 posts in 9 months on the SNP's much-publicised 'National Conversation', mostly from repeat posters. A recent lengthy plug on BBC resulted in just 4 new posts that day!
298

My Stereotype of ldopas ,

Cardiff 17/03/2008 15:48:36
310

You sound like my old pal, i shot him in the head.
299

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 15:48:55
301

Well at least the quality of pro union posting is improving. Which part of the UK do you come from then??
300

Media 1,

cape town 17/03/2008 15:49:48
#308 Stereo

The SNP is the team for people who hate England more than they love England. Its the team for people who want freedom in a country that is already free and its the team for people who have been indoctrinated all their life to believe that they are nothing more than a state of England.

I on the otherhand love Scotland, England is of no concern to me at all..I enjoy the freedom Scotland offers, and I see Scotland as a powerful member of the union, not some wee nothing state...

Now go and sing flower of Scotland and greet yer eyes oot whilst singing the pathetic words therein...
301

ldopas,

17/03/2008 15:50:30
304 An Beal Bacht,17/03/2008

Why am I posting here? Haha....good question, I ask myself that a lot! ;-)

I just like a bit of debate. What is the point debating with people who agree with you all the time. Dull!

Look I wish you people well. I hope we'll be friends after indepedence for us both! Seriously.
302

My Stereotype of ldopas ,

17/03/2008 15:53:11
314
You must are mistaking me for someone who gives a fukc.
Go spew your puke out at someone else. I hate the Brits but not the scots.Remember we celebrate kicking the Brits out in the USA.
303

My Stereotype of ldopas ,

17/03/2008 15:56:09
315
ou have no idea about the way our country is structured. So Id stop the kindergarten description, you just make yourself look way more stupid than you did before.

Any country that calls itself a democracy when it chooses between 2 middle class millionaires for president and can elect a half wit like George W, really isnt in any good place to criticise anyone else.

But what is really idiotic is thinking that the term "queens english" is anything about our present monarchy. Its a descriptive term to mean natural english, ie from its source.

But then a person who's reference is the urban dictionary and uses primary school terms like "libtard" probably wouldn't be able to grasp much of this.
What brit rubbish you come out with. Get a sogging life.
304

An Beal Bacht,

17/03/2008 15:58:43
311 Highland Mighty, 17/03/2008 15:47:49

Obviously you have as much integrity and honesty as the BBC

MRUK POLL CONDUCTED EARLIER THIS MONTH:

Scottish Parliament constituency vote:

SNP: 39% (+6)
Lab: 31% (-1)
Con: 15% (-2)
Lib: 12% (-4)
Oth: 3% (+1)

Scottish Parliament regional vote:

SNP: 40% (+9)
Lab: 30% (+1)
Con: 13% (-1)
Lib: 11% (-)
Oth: 5% (-10)

Projected seats:

SNP: 57
Lab: 44
Con: 16
Lib: 12

How is Alex Salmond doing as leader of the Scottish Government

Well: 70%
Badly: 17%
Don't know: 13%

POSITIVE RATING: +53

How is Wendy Alexander doing as leader of the Scottish Labour Party

Well: 30%
Badly: 52%
Don't know: 18%

NEGATIVE RATING: -22

MRUK Cello interviewed 1,028 adults across Scotland between 29 February and 9 March.
305

My Stereotype of ldopas ,

Cardiff 17/03/2008 15:59:28
Great Britain, George W Bush and his little englander poodle or is it now a scots wolf hound.
306

My Stereotype of ldopas ,

Cardiff 17/03/2008 16:00:49
318
That looks good news for scotland dude.
307

An Beal Bacht,

17/03/2008 16:02:17
315 ldopas, 17/03/2008 15:50:30 writes:

"Look I wish you people well. I hope we'll be friends after indepedence for us both! Seriously."

I think after independence that Scotland and England will be very close allies - which is as it should be.
308

Sanny,

17/03/2008 16:08:59
Why does everyone assume that dividends on investments are not treated as income? Yes the dividend is taxed at source, but it still has to be declared in your tax return. If it is not in an ISA then it still affects your total income for the year and affects your taxes, albeit there is an offset against tax already paid.

With Independence Scotland would have the opportunity to replace the present convoluted tax system with a Flat Rate Tax, as proposed by the Scottish Enterprise Party. This is the fairest of all tax systems, since once over the bar of personal allowance everyone pays the same proportion of their total income in tax. As there are no offsets it is the easiest tax system to operate which means it costs less to collect (currently it costs 48p to collect each £1 of tax) and is very much harder to avoid. Under this system the very rich pay significantly more than they do now, but this is offset against the savings made in not having to hire very expensive Lawyers and Accountants.

Many posters have said that there would be a mass exodus of people leaving the country to avoid LIT. Are these not the same people that posters claim have second houses in our villages; making properties unaffordable to the youngsters and creating ghost towns? Well if they leave then prices will fall and the young will be able to afford to live in our towns and villages again. There’s always an upside if you look for it!
309

Miss H,

17/03/2008 16:11:41
310 The scheme will be fully implemented by 2009. And of course you have to apply for it.
310

Miss H,

17/03/2008 16:17:32
303 Correct Media 1 which is why I don't spend half my time on Iraqi news sites telling them how to live their lives.
311

Miss H,

17/03/2008 16:18:56
306 You don't sound as though you pay business rates now so it's not going to make any difference to you. Though if you use part of your home as a business you probably should pay business rates.
312

Robert,

Kirriemuir 17/03/2008 16:21:43
#314 It is not that the SNP members as such actually hate the English. The question is about governance and whether each country in the UK should manage its own affairs but as you know this is an old chestnut. The problems arise from the position of the UK parliament being sited at Westminster. Distance alienates while all commenerce revolves around the centre hub. It is not an easily resolvable issue yet in practice it is an unfair one. Being part of the EU should in theory breakup the Union but it has not as yet done so. If Scotland gains its independence it should then become an equal partner in the EU (but possibly only with the roar of a mouse). I subscribe to your other points.
313

Robert,

Kirriemuir 17/03/2008 16:26:30
Addendum to #327. If we did become an independent member of the EU whatever problems we have may become exacerbated; just a thought!
314

ldopas,

17/03/2008 16:28:23
319 My Stereotype of ldopas ,Cardiff

People are having a good laugh at you now. you do realise that Tony Bliar IS scottish. You didnt know that did you.
315

Sanny,

Glasgow 17/03/2008 16:32:45
314 Media 1

Elsewhere your statement would be considered as libellous.

Perhaps you can explain and justify your statement: -
“The SNP is the team for people who hate England more than they love England. Its the team for people who want freedom in a country that is already free and its the team for people who have been indoctrinated all their life to believe that they are nothing more than a state of England.”

In particular can you prove the substance of your first sentence as quoted above?

I’m a nationalist Scot but I married an English lady from Dorset and we have enjoyed wedded bliss for over twenty years. We lived for many years in England and still have property there, as well as here in Glasgow. Incidentally my wife is even more supportive of Independence than I; she can’t understand why Scotland submits to the will of England. We neither of us Hate England nor the English but we both have a reasoned dislike of Westminster and its predations on Scotland.

I think it is time you read a little history particularly political history and learned to take a reasoned look at the behaviour of the Westminster Government in relation to Scotland. Go back to 1707 and work your way forward.
316

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 17/03/2008 16:34:07
#325 Miss H

Now why on Earth would I want to do something like that? :-)

317

ldopas,

17/03/2008 16:36:40
326 Buckpool Loon,Cheshire 17/03/2008

Why do people like you bother to post.

Firstly you just insult for no reason. Try growing up and debating.

Secondly you try and be high and mighty saying you have read all my posts. Then say I havent answered your question about tax ceiling. WHEN I DID. Its there in black and white.

I dont believe in a tax ceiling over which no tax is paid. How much clearer is that for you dummy?

Therefore why would I give a level over which people pay no tax. Because....I...dont...believe....in...a... tax...ceiling...over....which...no...tax...is...paid.

You can choose not to read and/or understand that, so you can fling insults if you want, but its not me who ends up looking an idiot.

Still what else can we expect from someone sucking in Blackpool air.
318

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 17/03/2008 16:37:05
#330 Sanny

Yes, Scotland was such a wonderful place in 1707, and all times before that date...
319

Sanny,

17/03/2008 16:37:35
329 ldopas
Now take a closer look at Tony Blair lineage and you will find you have been misled by our lazy press. Start by looking at the circumstances of his birth and his adoption, the period he spent in Scotland other than going time at Fettes. I think you are in for a surprise.
320

ldopas,

17/03/2008 16:38:14
Still what else can we expect from someone sucking in Blackpool air.

Blackpool = buckpool.

Incidentally, I suspect you must be an accountant yourself, or someone training as one. Am I right?
321

ldopas,

17/03/2008 16:39:10
334 Sanny,17/03/2008

He was born...I thought he came from the depths of hades! ;-)
322

Sanny,

17/03/2008 16:40:15
Ooops!!
Other than time spent at Fettes
323

Sanny,

17/03/2008 16:43:07
336 ldopas,
I'm not doing the research for you. Look him and his history up on the web!
324

ldopas,

17/03/2008 16:45:55
338 Sanny,17/03/2008 16:43:07

Do you or anyone else actually read the posts before answering them?

When did I ask you to do research?

My reply was meant to be, probably failed, a humerous aside. You did reaslise I didnt literally think he came from hades and was asking you to tell me what you found out?

Give me strength.
325

An Beal Bacht,

17/03/2008 16:55:14
Scotland's future's so bright we gotta wear shades - tchuss!
326

The-allymax,

silver hammer 17/03/2008 16:56:16
'High-fliers could flee Scotland to dodge local income tax.'

That's ok, they did that 300 years ago as well. We're better off without them.

P.s. I know wher you'll find them;
in the house of lords.
327

Miss H,

17/03/2008 17:02:40
325 Perhaps because you would qualify for 100% rates relief?
328

ldopas,

17/03/2008 17:19:13
344 Buckpool Loon,Cheshire 17/03/2008 17:05:08

Your unneeded insults, the fact you havent answered any of the issues I put to you, your accusations that I havent answered the questions but clearly have as they are there in this thread, your misuse of words that are beyond you to attempt to sound intelligent, tells me what you are.

Clearly a moron. Grow up.
329

Andrew Allan,

17/03/2008 18:43:18
Greatest laugh of the day this story, as this can and does already happen.
330

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 17/03/2008 19:23:39
#36 Grahamski of Falkirk "Check out the usual nationalist posters trotting out the usual nationalist apologia - blame the messenger (it's a conspiracy, don't you know) or if all else fails go back to default setting - blame the English"

WELL DONE FOR POINTING THAT OUT, NOBODY BELIEVES IT WHEN WE SAY IT......GOOD COMMENT
331

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 17/03/2008 19:27:42
Tin Man,Over the Rainbow 17/03/2008 16:37:05
#330 Sanny

Yes, Scotland was such a wonderful place in 1707, and all times before that date

OH HOW ORIGINAL, ANOTHER SCOT WITH A HUGE CHIP ABOUT ENGLAND, GET A LIFE LOOSER
332

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 17/03/2008 19:32:04
Robert,Kirriemuir 17/03/2008 16:21:43
#314 It is not that the SNP members as such actually hate the English. The question is about governance and whether each country in the UK should manage its own affairs but as you know this is an old chestnut. The problems arise from the position of the UK parliament being sited at Westminster. Distance alienates while all commenerce revolves around the centre hub. It is not an easily resolvable issue yet in practice it is an unfair one. Being part of the EU should in theory breakup the Union but it has not as yet done so. If Scotland gains its independence it should then become an equal partner in the EU (but possibly only with the roar of a mouse). I subscribe to your other points.

HATE US? OF COURSE THEY DON'T, THATS WHY THEY DON'T WANT AN UNPRISING LIKE TIBET ISN'T IT?

SCOTLAND GOVERN ITSELF? IT ALREADY DOES AND THE REST OF THE UK, IF ENGLAND CAN GOVERN ITSELF TOO, YOU CAN HAVE BROWN, BLAIR, REID, DARLING ET AL BACK
333

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 19:36:12
318. Well done for comparing a poll taken this month with one taken last May. Now compare more recent polls and you can clearly see the trend:

November 07, the SNP were 11% ahead.
January 08, they were 9% ahead.
March 08, they are now 7% ahead.

327. "Distance alienates while all commenerce revolves around the centre hub. It is not an easily resolvable issue yet in practice it is an unfair one."

What a ridiculous argument! Being 4,000+ miles from Washington has not punished California, has it! Hawaii is also doing quite well and how far away is that state from Washington?

And then you bang about Scotland's place in the EU when the seat of EU power is in Brussels! How is Brussels better than London??
The language? No.
The currency? No.
The economy? No.
The culture? No.
334

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 19:39:53
It's unbelievable that nats continue to preach that having the UK seat of government 500 miles south actually affects our economy and lifestyle.

How?

335

AJM,

17/03/2008 20:15:33
#353 Highland Mighty, interesting argument by the Nats, do I take it that as Shetland is so far from Edinburgh that it would be better off back with Norway. I am sure that is not the SNP policy as off would go some oil.

The central SNP tack on a clear and awkward article for them is to bring the subject around to how bad Westminster is and how great AS is in every respect. Trouble is that most folk do not care about politicians and Edinburgh is about as near as London for most folk and a lot are not interested in going to either.

But they will care if it appears that the rich will get off this tax.
336

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 20:17:47
352, HM says "
Now compare more recent polls and you can clearly see the trend:

November 07, the SNP were 11% ahead.
January 08, they were 9% ahead.
March 08, they are now 7% ahead. "


I see the trend 1. SNP ahead, 2. SNP ahead 3. SNP ahead. Now what could be the message in these polls?


Looking deeper, we see in all these polls the SNP have improved on their winning position from last May, with Alex Salmond's popularity soaring, th SNP government rated far higher than the UK government. Great stuff.
337

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 20:30:33
355. The denial is strong in this one.
338

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 20:33:43
356. The dementia is strong in this one. He quotes polls that would give the SNP 57 seats as Holyrood as a sign that support for the SNP is lower than May 2007.
339

,

17/03/2008 20:49:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
340

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 20:50:59
358. Nope, that one highlighted the end of the honeymoon for the SNP too.

And after only ten months too. Even Labour lasted many years before their lead started to evaporate!
341

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 20:57:18
352

Well for one thing Brussels doesnt take our tax income nor does it steal the revenue from our natural assets in it wont whether we are in or out of Europe do you see the difference yet? of course you do you always have.
342

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 20:58:26
361. Is that poll that had the headline in today's Herald "The honeymoon is far from over " and the first line had "Honeymoon intensifying" and the article states in paragraph 1 "The popularity of the SNP in an opinion poll published yesterday is evidence that Alex Salmond's honeymoon with Scottish voters is growing ever more passionate."



343

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 21:00:08
361, Highland Mighty.

If I might ask a question of you? Do you suffer from alcheimers?

It's just that you come over permanenly pissed, bitter and twisted.
344

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 21:00:57
357

What amazes me about that poll is the fact that New Labour are still hanging onto 44 seats. In fact I find that unbelievable after all thats occurred.
There must still be a lot of people in Scotland still gullible enough to take their views from what they read in the Record and the Sun not to mention this f*cking rag. the power of the press indeed.
345

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 21:09:54
365. Indeed, even Margaret Curran, Labour MSP, described Wendy Alexander's performance as "shockingly and appaulingly bad" - maybe she wasn't polled.
346

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 21:17:37
367. No, clearly not.

364. Highland Mighty is "permanenly pissed, bitter and twisted."

and those are his positive qualities...
347

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 21:27:27
Has it never occurred to anyone the opportunities that would be available to everyone if those who could afford to pay over £100,000 in LIT upped sticks and effed off somewhere else?

Hmmm? I would not mind having an income that big. However, accountants are paid to ensure minimum tax is paid. Fred Goodwin's P45 may be one example but I would like to see the bottom line on hisb monthly pay statement.

Hamish, please publish that. If you can. If you can't then please desist from publishing anything.
348

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 21:28:39
371. Yes, is true - poll on Sunday showed Tories 16 points ahead of Labour, highest lead for 20 years.
349

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 21:37:40
2 Beers and alcheimers is settling in. Mind you it is Belgian beer and they have a 6% LIT, Hamish.

Ayreshire, dammit, you pasted my typo.

Spook, thanks. And for not pasting my typo.

But seriously, it's an effing consultation paper.
350

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 21:37:54
377

http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2123885.0.The_honeymoon_is_far_from_over_as_Salmonds_stock_keeps_rising.php
351

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 21:39:16
377, Spook, you jest.
352

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 21:41:12
378. I know, couldn't be bothered correcting it. And where is Ayreshire? hehehe
353

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 21:49:07
382. Yes, the other poll which Highland Mighty quotes as showing end of SNP honeymoon is detailed in today's Herald under the "SNP honeymoon far from over" headline, "SNP honeymoon intensifying" article,
354

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 21:55:16
385. good crieff, such geography! Who said that, Ryanair?
355

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 21:56:33
384

The problem is the SNP can acheive 51% of the popular vote in Scotland and still not get enough seats in Parliament to force a referendum on Independence they need in excess of 65% of the electorate to give them a chance of getting over 65 seats in Parliament.
In any other democratic nation in the world a national vote of 51% would be enough to claim a mandate christ our UK political parties rarely get in with over 40% of the popular vote.
356

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 22:00:25
388, But surely unionists are such good democrats, and accept a plurality of the vote as a mandate for a Westminster government to implement a manifesto, and are so sure independence would lose, they will back a free vote....

Not sure will take 65% for an SNP majority - 57 seats based on 40% projection in Herald poll.... In any case, all good democrats will support a referendum.
357

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 22:01:55
389, ColB, anyway you want to.
358

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/03/2008 22:03:05
389, Is pronounced "Crieff", is from ayreshire-cottages.com (cottages? jeez, them avante garde metrosexualists) site, and is within walking distance of Moffat
359

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 22:04:42
390, Ayreshire, stop being pc. Unionists are not democratic. They are unionists.

Ask the Tibetans,
360

Conan the Librarian™,

17/03/2008 22:06:06
393
Surely that would be diving distance of Muffit.
361

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 22:10:02
Good Crieff, Ayreshir, you are on form tonight. Ask Dennis Lawson, or his nephew - a certain member of the Trainspotting gang - exactly what Crieff is within walking distance of and they would most likely say Methven.
362

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 22:11:56
390

Well thats confusing because the whole point of devolution was to make it as difficult as possible for one party to gain overall control hence even Labour had to take on the Lib Dems to form a government I think they have their sums wrong wouldnt be the first time. What % of the vote did labour have when they were in power??
363

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 22:16:24
363. And you are still struggling with separating Salmond's individual rating from that for the SNP and for independence in general?

Go on, have another crack! Read all those reports and compare it with the poll itself.

Do you actually believe what you are saying? Is your denial of reality THAT strong?

Do you not see that a poll lead in Nov of 11%, then 9% in Jan and now just 7% in March is a DECREASING lead? At this rate, the SNP will be polling back below Labour by the end of the year.

Now that is very basic maths, all about number series. Can you see the pattern in the numbers? Do you see?

It is hilarious to see you all blatently and desperately making stuff up to further your cause!
364

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 22:18:00
Ah. The minnows, Spook, the minnows. Haven't heard that term for a while.

Nor the local burn.

The only reason I remember Crieff and Methven is because I grew up (some still say I haven't) in the area and went back to work there a couple of yers ago.

This Belgian alcheimers is actually quite nice, Highland Mighty. A lot cheaper in Belguim of course in spite of their 6% LIT.
365

Conan the Librarian™,

17/03/2008 22:18:21
Wasn't it Blunkett who neede a nondom to have sex?
366

Conan the Librarian™,

17/03/2008 22:20:02
400
Leffe?
367

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 22:21:04
400 and never even tried.

Not guilty or not proven?

Notice the Highland Mighty has reawakened. Same old crap though.
368

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 22:21:58
I'll happily say that again, if you wish.

In Nov 07, the SNP lead was 11%.
In Jan 08, it was down to 9%.
In Mar 08, it was down to 7%.

That's a loss of 1% a month. Not quite "rocketing support", is it? Quite the opposite, in fact.

And STILL no sign of any interest in the Nationalist Conversation or the SNP's precious 'White Paper on Independence'.

So we all anxiously await any sign of whatsoever of this much vaunted "runaway"/"rocketing"/"unstoppable" support for either the SNP or independence.
369

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 22:23:17
401, Conan, it's Martens Pils. Prefer the Jupiler. 50 cents a can over there. £1 a con over here.
370

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 22:24:42
407. That wasn't a typo
371

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 22:24:58
405

What were the error margins for the poll results??
372

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 22:25:54
406. Nope, they didn't.

Feel free to quote.
373

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 22:26:40
409. Clinging to margins of error now?

LOL!
374

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 22:29:01
412

Depends on what they are you can use them to work out the average over all 3 polls to give you a more credible single figure. taking 3 seperate polls from 3 different sources over 3 different time periods leaves a lot of doubts as to the conclusions dont you think??
375

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 22:29:42
Highland Mighty is currently attending the AMtwa school of statistics. Once he graduates from primary 1 he wants to travel, broaden his mind, work with children and be nice to animals.
376

Conan the Librarian™,

17/03/2008 22:30:48
407
Ah ken, from the toon Jupille.(beer's a passion)

Drinking Adnams Broadside(no a typo either :-)
377

Highland Mighty,

17/03/2008 22:32:39
414. No! What are you on about?!
378

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 22:36:08
ColB,

Alcheimers refers to the alc(ohol). Be it beer or whatever. In my case tonight I just happened to get a bit tiddly on a can and a half of 5% Belgian Beer.

Tut, tut, what will the regime organisers have to say about that? 10 more and you're a journalist?

Aw, feck it, the sell by date on that bottle of wine is due.

379

Conan the Librarian™,

17/03/2008 22:38:52
420
Evening spook.Not actually SEEN him for a wee while.
380

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 22:44:01
416, Conan, In Bev now owns Jupiler but they don't seem to have interfered with the quality for production cheapness.

Brugges on the other hand seems to interfered with the quality for the outstretched hand.
381

Robert,

Kirriemuir 17/03/2008 22:44:23
#351.352.353; did I say something upsetting perchance?

Highland Mary, don't let the others upset you; you sound from here a fine kilt-swinging lass; keep on battling with that claymore of yours as you score on many points most with which I still don't agree.
382

CROSSED GEORGE,

England, Anglo, Paradise, Civilisation 17/03/2008 22:49:48
425,
No Robert, you didn't upset me, I just find what you said about the SNP not hating English a little hard to believe, as regards everyone governing themselves, fine if everyone has parity
383

CROSSED GEORGE,

ENGLAND 17/03/2008 22:53:21
Highland Mighty,17/03/2008 19:39:53
It's unbelievable that nats continue to preach that having the UK seat of government 500 miles south actually affects our economy and lifestyle.

How?

This will be your nats will it, tell me how can Edinburgh with 400,000 people be capital of UK compared to London, 20 times the size.

And for the record, in my eyes London is the English capital, not of anywhere else
384

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 22:55:07
418

Thats a pity because without the proper data and correct context figures such as these can be misrepresented and spun in such a dishonest way as to say show that there is a decrement from 11 to 7 when in fact the figures really show a discrepency within the different methods of polling and an inaccuracy which requires the get out of jail free clause of a built in error margin. So in reality what you should be doing is taking all 3 figures with their error margins and using the mean average calculation to give you a single figure which is as close to the true figure as possible.
You cant really show these 3 inaccurate figures as an indication of a trend.
Unless of course you are a sh*t stirring troll with nothing better to do in your life.
385

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 22:56:01
Spook, We could mack up a song parody of the Pythons' Lumberjack song -jeez this Belgian (6% LIT and still 50 cents a can) beer is stimulating.

I'm an Orangeman from Ulster,right
I play the flute all day and night
I wear weird clothes and a bowler hat
And I do not mind being laughed at.
386

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/03/2008 22:56:46
428 HM

Posting to yourself is a very very bad sign. Have you considered therepy??
387

CROSSED GEORGE,

England, Anglia, Paradise, Civilisation, Utopian S 17/03/2008 22:57:28
yawn, Scottish politics!

Maybe the Welsh would like parity too.
388

CROSSED GEORGE,

England, Anglia, Paradise, Civilisation, Utopia 17/03/2008 23:00:01
posting to myself, no replying to this HM's rubbish

The Spook in Leith,Leith 17/03/2008 22:54:39
#426 Crossed thing..

pure coincidence
389

CROSSED GEORGE,

17/03/2008 23:01:22
Foulkes Off the CyberNat,Edinburgh 17/03/2008 22:56:46
428 HM

Posting to yourself is a very very bad sign. Have you considered therepy??

maybe therApy lol
390

CROSSED GEORGE,

17/03/2008 23:04:25
The Spook in Leith,Leith 17/03/2008 23:01:46
#432 Correct, because look at when he last posted then when someone has a go at the current he posts within 5 mins then changes moniker, its like the tea cup saying the coffee pot. "im a mug"

OH LETS GANG UP ON AN ENGLISHMAN EH? WELL WE CANNOT DEPRIVE YOU OF YOUR NATIONAL PASTIME
391

CROSSED GEORGE,

17/03/2008 23:05:41
439

Think I came up the Mersey on one, Jock
392

CROSSED GEORGE,

17/03/2008 23:06:54
Well I shall leave you to discussing how England is to blame for all Scotlands woes, even though we are dictated to by Brown, and your sectarianism
393

Conan the Librarian™,

17/03/2008 23:07:01
433
I thought you wanted English parity George?
394

CROSSED GEORGE,

17/03/2008 23:09:01
come on Conan, someone was arguing about everyone ruling themselves, fine, we don't have devolution, wales and northern ireland have less than you, its not fair, even for the celtic brothers
395

Conan the Librarian™,

17/03/2008 23:10:45
444
I agree George, dinnae shoot the messenger
396

CROSSED GEORGE,

17/03/2008 23:10:48
anyway, i'm really going now, ttfn
397

Conan the Librarian™,

17/03/2008 23:12:22
Aww.
398

CROSSED GEORGE,

17/03/2008 23:13:06
ok, one last post

446; fair enough mate, maybe one day everyone will be happy

445; Brown is an idiot because he tells us he's English, British or whatever in this broad Fife accent, but true he never says he's Scottish
399

CROSSED GEORGE,

17/03/2008 23:16:35
450, I want independence for England so we have a common wish

Good call about the past, the Scottish fought the English in my hometown 120 miles south of the border so they invaded too

And as for Jimmy Hill, if you know about the maximum wage business down here in the sixties, he killed my once great small town footy team
400

Conan the Librarian™,

17/03/2008 23:16:49
Don't think so spook. Hope not anyway. Crossed George represents the people we shall have to deal with...AFTER.
401

CROSSED GEORGE,

17/03/2008 23:17:14
now really gone, and if I was a myth, it would be a Lowland one!!!!!

Night
402

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 23:18:17
Trolls in their eyes.

Tonight, Matthew, I am going to be....

403

Conan the Librarian™,

17/03/2008 23:19:25
452
An Englishman who hates Jimmy Hill...I like you more and more George.
404

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 23:22:42
Nexy Sunday, Matthew, I'm going to be EhDee Barnes. Please beat me to it everyone.

Tomorrow, Matthew, I'm going to be Amish MacDonnell. Please beat me to that as well.
405

Richardinho,

17/03/2008 23:29:03
It's amazing that you can have a tax which will both take less money in AND lead to people paying more in tax.
406

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 23:29:38
452. You are an alien. It was the minimum wage and it was broken by Johnny Haynes. He ended up in Edinburgh and died of a heart attack driving a car up Dalry Road.

Met him once as I knew his partner. He was a true gentleman and one of the most likeable people you could ever meet. At football he was the scourge of the Scots but so effing what?
407

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2008 23:38:32
Spook, I'm not sure if it was or yon George troll which just reminded me to put my bin out. In your case it was the sleeping till midday comment (mine gets collectint at 0730). In the case of George I reckon it was just the garbage.
408

brownlie,

glesgo 17/03/2008 23:59:37
463 Jock
If my memory serves Hill was the PFA Secretary? and did away with the then maximum wage and I think Johnny Haynes was the first £100 per week player plus £20 for advertising Brylcreem
409

Soosider,

Glasgow 18/03/2008 00:15:26
So 3% on Tax equals £117000, therefore the person would have to be earning £4000000 a year, I wonder how many folk in Scotland earn £4M a year. Bet it is avery small number.
Another scare story with no evidence to support it
410

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 18/03/2008 00:34:03
465, Brownlie, yep. That rings a bell. I had forgotten that Chinny Hill was that old. Didn't know about the Brylcreem thing either. Remember the penny squirts from the machine at the swimming baths though.

Dear, dear, alcheimers. Maximum wage. What on earth was I thinking about with minimum wage? I hold my hand up as being wrong.

Strange that Crossed George never picked me up on my spouting of inaccuracies.

Hmmmm?
411

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 18/03/2008 01:00:49
Yes I can really see someone earning £4million uprooting his entire family and fleeing to England to avoid an extra £100,000 on their local income tax bill.

It's ludicrous that someone earning £4million only pays £2338 anyway but the Scotsman is so busy looking for an angle to hit the SNP Government with it overlooks that tiny, though highly relevant detail.

412

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/03/2008 01:03:09
466

Aye and no doubt he will be living in a band A flat with his wife also earning 4 mil a year.
413

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 18/03/2008 01:04:10
I should add this is yet another story with COULD as the key word. Other key words include MAY or MIGHT.

Unionist Journalists in Scotland are world champions at painting the worst possible scenario of something which MIGHT happen.
414

somerferg,

Perth 18/03/2008 01:06:45

Yes I can see it now - everyone is packing their bags and moving to Engerland because they dare not stay in a country where the SNP government are providing better services, more accountablility in local government, free personal care, scraping bridge tolls, encouraging inward investment, dealing with the binge drinking culture, etc,etc,etc oh the humanity - the end is nigh.

p.s. usual pi$h reporting (scaremongering) by the Hootsman!
415

donald,

glasgow 18/03/2008 08:32:46
Will John Reid be fleeing Parkheid then with his Brit Nat board?
416

donald,

glasgow 18/03/2008 08:33:20
Will Hamish be fleeing too?
417

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 19/03/2008 15:23:52
The Scotsmans stories get ever more laughable. They recently showed a graph which claimed an English director of a Scottish company would pay nothing under the new plans. That's right he'll pay his local taxes in Yorkshire, then as now, but the Scotsman couldn't even be bothered working out what he pays at the moment!

LIT means that the public will pay a percentage of their income for their local services. It won't be at punitively high levels but if the super rich have to pay a bit more I won't be crying any crocodile tears.

 

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