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Half of Scots see Muslims as 'cultural threat' in wake of terrorist attacks

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Published Date:
12 December 2007
THE number of Scots who hold discriminatory attitudes towards Muslims has increased over the last three years following the terrorist attacks in London, new figures showed yesterday.
As increased immigration from around the world changes the social make-up of Scotland, the latest survey of attitudes showed the majority of people are willing to embrace different cultures.

But despite government campaigns to tackle racism, a hardcore of people continue to believe prejudice is acceptable. And while attitudes to gay people and women have improved, one in five people think civil partnerships are wrong and one in seven think a woman's place is in the home.

In particular, attitudes towards Muslims and ethnic minorities have deteriorated in recent years. Half of those surveyed considered the increasing number of Muslims in the country as a cultural threat and one in five feared ethnic minorities would take their jobs.

Equality groups said such attitudes are unacceptable in the 21st century and called for the "silent majority" to speak out against prejudice.

It has been estimated Scotland will need 20,000 immigrants every year to save the economy from collapse over the next 30 years, and Stewart Maxwell, the communities minister, pledged to redouble Scottish Government efforts to tackle discrimination.

The Attitudes to Discrimination in Scotland report surveyed around 1,600 people across Scotland between August 2006 and January 2007.

In general, the country is in favour of integration with 65 per cent of people agreeing that Scotland should do everything to get rid of all kinds of prejudice.

However, 29 per cent disagreed, though such an outlook is more common amongst those with fewer educational qualifications. People were also more prejudiced against certain groups.

Professor John Curtice, a consultant to the Scottish Centre for Social Research and one of the co-authors of the report, said the "direction of prejudice" is changing.

Prof Curtice pointed out that half of those surveyed would be unhappy if a relative married a transsexual person while a third said the same in respect of an asylum-seeker, a gypsy traveller or someone of the same sex.

However Prof Curtice said the group that appears to have suffered the worse in recent years is Muslims.

He suggested this was because of the ongoing "war on terror" and the attacks on London in 2005.

In 2006, 50 per cent of people said that Scotland would begin to lose its identity if more Muslims came to live here compared to 38 per cent in 2003. Over the same period there was a four-point increase in the proportion who say they would be unhappy about a relative forming a relationship with a Muslim.

Dr Salah Baltagui, of the Muslim Council of Scotland and Scottish Interfaith Council, said prejudice remains a reality.

He said the way to address the problem was to tackle stereotypes and introduce more people to Muslims.

"This is happening and what we have to do is try to help people find out more about Muslims and break down the stereotypes," he said.

Mr Maxwell said: "While most people want to see a fairer, more equal society, it is worrying a sizeable minority still hold discriminatory views. We must address this to ensure Scotland's future success as a welcoming, modern nation."

ANALYSIS: PREJUDICE AGAINST FAITH NOT COLOUR


THE revealing statistic in yesterday's government report into discrimination is that while 4 per cent of people would object to an Asian teacher, 21 per cent would do so if it was a Muslim teacher writes Osama Saeed.

It confirms the trend whereby people of colour have gained increasing acceptance, while prejudice now targets people because of their faith.

We now have a situation where white people of Celtic stock convert to Islam and are being told to "go home". To where? Glasgow?

Recently a lady who converted was called a "White Paki" because of her hijab . A group of thugs threw a glass bottle at her.

According to the report, half of Scots believe that the addition of more Muslims will threaten the country's identity. This despite previous reports finding that Muslims actually feel more Scottish than the population as a whole. So where are these attitudes coming from?

The report blames the international situation. Certainly, the heat generated by the terrorist attacks of 9/11 and 7/7, and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have created the perception of a West vs Islam paradigm.

We can campaign on these issues to make them better. The fact that Muslims and non-Muslims marched together against the Iraq war is well-known. But after the Glasgow Airport attack this year, Muslims and non-Muslims again stood shoulder to shoulder in the Glasgow protest against it.

While there should be some despondency from this report, we also have the opportunity in Scotland to show the world how well it can work between Muslims and non-Muslims and do something practical about the faith-race issue.

• Osama Saeed is a board member of the Muslim Council of Scotland.

The full article contains 849 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Name,

12/12/2007 01:02:45

Scottish people racist?! Should people be surprised.

And of course you can tell what "Muslims" look like can't you. Stupid report. Not all non-white Asian people are Mooslim.

2

Lianachan,

Highlands 12/12/2007 01:08:51

Hardly a surprise, given the way that Islamic culture seems to be getting groomed in western media to replace "commies" as the global boogeyman.

3

Statsman,

12/12/2007 01:21:53

Muslims fail to integrate consistently. Hindus do as well as whites in the UK. They are the same race as Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. It isn't a racial issue.

It's an issue where Muslims put their faith before where they live. If they love Islam more than Scotland, they should go to where they are happy. This country should not be held to ransom by terrorist Islamists that have no interest in integrating.

Scotland is for Scots... no matter what colour of Scot that Scot happens to be.

4

Kilted_kangaroo,

Australia 12/12/2007 01:24:26

As a faith, Islam is incompatible with modern society. We never had extremist muslims in teh country before so we have to deal with them now. Send them packing!

5

somerferg,

oz 12/12/2007 01:37:01

A more interesting article might be about the number of Muslims who hold discriminatory views against Scots!

6

The Daleks,

12/12/2007 01:37:38

They're seen as a threat, because they ARE a threat.

The PC Brigade and their strange bedfellows, the Capitalists, have both tried to brainwash us into accepting mass immigration for their own ends.

Guilt and Greed.

Clearly the brainwashing isn't working, particularly as the reality of having a huge and ever growing immigrant population in our midst sinks in.

7

The Strategist,

12/12/2007 01:44:19

This is an issue that is going to get worse before it gets better. Every car bomb such as those in Algeria today where UNHCR staff were attacked is going to raise suspicions about Muslims all over the world not just in Scotland.

Having already experienced the attack on Glasgow airport where even doctors were involved the awful truth is that people just don't know who to trust.

Of course this is probably part of the Militant Islamic strategy. The greater the mistrust they can create the more they can say that we nasty Westerners are haters of anything Islamic then they can create more convertees to "the cause". Militant Islam is thoroughly evil and misguided.

Osama Saeed is right though. Scotland is probably the most likely place that could put these issue aside because are naturally a tolerant people.

The danger is though that one more major attack anywhere in the UK and that opportunity could be lost overnight.

It's on a knife edge and if it goes the wrong way then we'll all be the loosers Muslims and none Muslims alike.

8

Itchy,

12/12/2007 01:46:09

The PC Brigade are bedfellows of the communists.

It doesn't help matters that a large proportion of Muslims want Sharia law.

The illiberal nature of such law can be seen in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and many other countries

9

The Strategist,

12/12/2007 01:57:08

#8

That's not entirely true. There are large numbers of Iranians living in the UK and elsewhere who got out of Iran at the time of the Islamic Revolution in order to escape from things like Sharia law. One of them happens to be a great friend of mine.

10

Guga II,

Rockall 12/12/2007 02:12:46

There is nothing wrong with immigration, provided that the people entering this country actually integrate with the native population. The problems arises out of the stupid multi-cultural approach as that gives rise to seperatism, not integration.

There are, of course, a number of immigrants who have no intention of ever integrating, or even becoming involved with everyday life in this country. These people are not welcome, and should go back to where they came from.

Incidentally, the question of religion is irrelevant other than in the case of those immigrants who would try and force their views on the rest of us. It is bad enough when some of our own population try that nonsense.

11

Lynne,

USA 12/12/2007 02:18:32

Straight off the Scotsman..this how they do not assimilate.

Father says killed daughter in Canadian hijab case
TORONTO (Reuters) - A Canadian teenager who was said to have clashed with her father about whether she should wear a traditional Muslim head scarf died of injuries late on Monday, and her father told police he had killed her.
Aqsa Parvez, 16, was found without a pulse in her home in the Toronto suburb of Mississauga earlier on Monday. She was resuscitated by paramedics, treated at two hospitals, and later succumbed to her injuries, police said on Tuesday.

Her father, 57-year-old Muhammad Parvez, has been charged with murder and was remanded back into custody after his first court appearance early on Tuesday.
"There was a 911 call placed by a man who indicated that he had just killed his daughter," Jodi Dawson, a constable with Peel Regional Police, told Reuters. "Everything else is evidentiary in nature and the investigation is in its preliminary stages at this point."
The victim's brother, Waqas Parvez, 26, was arrested and charged with obstructing police.

12

Dougie Wells,

Sydney, Australia 12/12/2007 02:34:19

I am appalled at the racist views being expressed in the majority of these posts. I lived in Scotland for many years before emigrating to Australia 8 years ago.
I don't recall anyone with a modicum of intelligence being concerned about followers of the Islamic faith, nor any of its manifestations such as hijabs etc until a whole people became the international bogeymen after 9/11.
Before you start complaining that Muslim people do not integrate (what about those who are doctors, work at the post office, handle your benefit claim, serve you in a cornershop or department store, fix your teeth, handle your business accounts, work in a nursing home, teach your children, who take in your washing for you when it rains, etc?) ask yourself "What have I done to help?" before you place the whole burden of "integrating" on someone else.
Ask yourself why it is that it is always the minority groups who have to go more than 50% of the way? Who are the ones who are always expected to give something up, rather than the more powerful majority (who have so much to gain by being more open).

Its not easy moving to, and trying to establish yourself, in another country, let alone culture. Especially when that move may have been forced upon you by conflict etc.

The fear of "the other" by some members of the so-called mainstream population only ends up being some kind of bizarre wish-fulfillment prophecy that alienates the very people you want to "integrate", whatever that word means.

Let's respect our differences, instead of getting into a deadly game of trying to eliminate them.

Have some people not learned any lessons from the days when the bogeymen were the Irish, and many of them were treated with the same sort of suspicion and hostility now being directed towards people of the Islamic faith?

Lets not talk of tolerance (what do you think it feels like to be tolerated), but acceptance.
Whate

13

Canada,

Canada 12/12/2007 02:42:17

When I left, Scotland was a Christian country. What happened? Now you're so open minded your brains have fallen out. Guess when you stand for nothing you fall for anything!

14

CANAMALBANNACH,

Marlton, NJ 12/12/2007 02:53:18

Typical Muslim PC speak, "we're good, really, you're bad because you're northern European".

If you really, really want us to believe Islam is a religion of peace, condemn the murder of Theo Van Gogh and the continued harassment of Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Salomon Rushdie. Kindly stop the "honour killings" that seem to occur daily in the industrialized nations. Maybe also lose the apostasy = death thing. Also, lose the "But" when condemning an atrocity, as in, "We condemn these attacks, BUT if the countries of the west continue to (support Israel, occupy Iraq, Afghanistan, insert grievance here), then they shouldn't be surprised". An atrocity is an atrocity.

And I'll be more concerned about Muslim "rights" in the West when minority concerns are given more weight in say, the Sudan (Darfur), Saudi Arabia (Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, younameitism verboten, nevermind the state of domestic workers and women), in fact, pretty much all Islamic countries.

Integration is a two-way street.

15

COLINTON.MAINS,

toronto/canada 12/12/2007 03:05:45

her.dad.killed.her..but.he.is.a.good.muslim

16

Kilted_kangaroo,

Australia 12/12/2007 03:14:13

Dougie, Dougie, Dougie........there you go again. Becasue the MAGORITY of people don't agree with you, you belittle them and claim they don't have 'a modicum of intelligence". hmmmm....quite disrespectful really. FYI.....i moved to Australia and believe it or not actually go out of my way to 'fit-in' and accept the Australian culture and traditions. Hmmmm......I wonder if the muslim MINORITY might try to follow suit.
FYI Dougie, integrate means
verb
1 [I or T] to mix with and join society or a group of people, often changing to suit their way of life, habits and customs:
Everyone is entitled to be wrong dougie.....even you!

17

Kilted_kangaroo,

Australia 12/12/2007 03:16:01

And it was a typo on magority not a spelling error lol majority :O)
See we can argue and still smile.........no need to car bomb the living daylights out of each other like some muslims I know do.

18

W Smith,

Middle East 12/12/2007 03:47:24

#12 Dougie
You should be know about the white australian girl who was gang raped by a bunch of muslim lads in Sydney.

While raping her they continually referred to her as a 'pig'.

So that's not racism thats just a bunch of immigrants finding it difficult to "establish" themselves in a foreign country then eh?

Or were they just demonstrating their opposition to the Iraq war through the medium of rape?

The young muslim lads in Sydney like to ogle at white women sunbathing on Bondia beach and when they're not doing that they're being all pious and anti-western.

In Scotland we had muslim thugs who killed a Scottish teenager and were continually referred to by the Scottish media as "asian".

Just like the riots in Paris is caused by "youths".

Aye, arab muslim youths who should be deported!

19

Udith Fonseka,

Sri Lanka 12/12/2007 04:23:58

The silent majority. What is it that you believe they would really say---is the survey flawed then????
A hard core group of people already do believe that prejudice is NOT acceptable.

Im Pro Gay,Jewish,a Feminist, against FGM, etc etc,etc,etc
Where do you think I stand then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

20

,

12/12/2007 05:40:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
21

The Daleks,

12/12/2007 06:29:15

#12 Dougie.

Its deluded fools like you who've contributed to this mess.

#8 Itchy. I'm well aware of the PC Brigades affiliations to Communism. I was making the point that the Communists and the Capitalists have created this situation together, albeit for different reasons.

22

Udith Fonseka,

Ex Great Western Road 12/12/2007 06:30:47

So 1,600 Scottish peoples attitudes towards Gays,Civil Partnerships,marrying a transexual, and "knowing where a women belongs" have improved. I wonder what a survey of 1,600 Muslims in Scotland would show when asked those questions? Come on Scotland you have to approve gays,jews,free women and those who would oppress them.

23

Media 1,

cape town 12/12/2007 06:40:20

I think one of the most dangerous aspects surrounding topics of this nature, is that people are left feeling guilty for harbouring resentment against other communities,when really, there is nothing wrong with disliking, ignoring or refusing to accept people from other cultures...
The muslim culture is not normal to the majority of people in Scotland, and it doesnt help that there is a war raging between the West and parts of Islam. What would have happened between 1939 and 1944 had there been 5 million Germans living in Britain?

It is also worth remembering that equality is something that most people around the world continue to fight for. Women fight for it, black people fight for it and Muslim people in Britain fight for it. So why can white people not demand that equality is delivered by Muslim nations. Why can we not build our churches in Islam? Why can we not wear our western dress and indulge in our western ways within your societies without the fear of death?
I am not religious, so a church is meaningless to me, but that does not mean I dont notice the double standards in practice.
Muslim nations have not exactly been successful in terms of economic advancement, unless off-course they have adopted a western approach to business. Therefore, it begs the question as to how Muslim people enmasse are going to contribute to the British economy unless they adopt the western lifestyle...
There is nothing wrong with disliking others, nothing at all...

24

Pinelands,

PINELANDS. Where the heart is 12/12/2007 06:56:06

#23 Media
Spot on

When in Britain do as the Muslim do

Or something like that

25

waldenman,

East Lothian 12/12/2007 07:09:55

"Half of those surveyed considered the increasing number of Muslims in the country as a cultural threat and one in five feared ethnic minorities would take their jobs.

Equality groups said such attitudes are unacceptable in the 21st century and called for the "silent majority" to speak out against prejudice."

Sorry but such attitudes are PERFECTLY acceptable!
You might not agree with them but under no circumstances does that make them unacceptable.

This is indicative of how the immigration debate has been hijacked and dissent is being silenced by twisted logic and the demonisation of those who don't hold the same view.

Doubtless these are the same types who decry the UKs colonial past as destructive & damaging to the indigenous culture but can't (or won't) apply the same standards when the situation is reversed.

Double standards methinks.

26

Steve Evans,

Malta 12/12/2007 07:13:52

Reckon its more than half !

27

jj,

12/12/2007 07:17:58

Its a numbers problem, A few foreigners would always be welcome. But silly politicians whio can't count and who have no vision drive in thousands upon thousands with little or no interest in the future consequences.

28

Stanley Unwin,

12/12/2007 07:27:24

Standard Islamic response to the atrocities carried our in the name of their religion.........

'we codemn the killing of innocent people'

What defines 'innocent' or indeed guilty?

Trouble is in their eyes all infidels, dhimmies or not, are guilty, and should convert on pa'ain of death.

They are 21st Century Jesuit/Conquistadors.

We await the Islamic reformation.........

29

conservative,

Fife 12/12/2007 07:41:17

Only 21% would object? I would have thought the figure would be much higher for a religion which seeks to ignore any of our laws and customs it disagrees with. How could anyone be happy with someone who is so profoundly opposed to our way of life educating their children? Ignoring for the moment that Muslim nations foster and sponsor almost all of the world's terrorism.

Tolerance is one thing but blind stupidity is quite another.

30

Bad Yin,

12/12/2007 07:42:56

Cameron was up here yesterday talking about:
Strength through Unity

The multicultural lobby talks about:
Unity through Diversity

What they really mean is:
Diversity through Immigration.

You can bet that this exercise in national humiliation (but we're not racist - honest!) is really gearing us up for a tsunami of mass migration into the UK and Scotland.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=260

600,000 a year they're owning up to right now. (I don't believe them - we all know they're a bunch of fixers). That would be about the population of Edinburgh and Aberdeen combined - every year.

What multiculturalism means is that your culture as a Scot has no more relevance in Scotland than the culture of someone from let's say - the Sudan. If you don't like that then you're prejudiced - a racist. So just keep schtum.

"Half of those surveyed considered the increasing number of Muslims in the country as a cultural threat and one in five feared ethnic minorities would take their jobs.

Equality groups said such attitudes are unacceptable in the 21st century..."

"Dr Salah Baltagui, of the Muslim Council of Scotland and Scottish Interfaith Council, said ...the way to address the problem was to tackle stereotypes and introduce more people to Muslims. "

Oh aye - we're going to be introduced to a lot more.

A poster on another site suggested that there was no such thing as a Scot. When I challenged that I was a Scot he suggested that I p*** off to Ireland. He was from Manchester and passing himself off as a Scottish Nationalist.

So there you have it. Get ready to welcome all these new Scots 'cause they are surely coming.

31

Faye,

12/12/2007 07:45:59

Is it because their community fails to speak out against those who want to snuff us all out?

32

Mandela,

Johannesburg 12/12/2007 07:49:16

#20.......are you saying that Mohammed had a six year old wife ?...serious question btw

33

Jimmy Hill,

12/12/2007 07:49:47

the poison of nationalism comes in many hues - the SNP has failed to refine its form of nationalism. the current promotion of Scottish national distinction draws on exclusory conceptions of identity which encourage the demonisation of some communities. Alex, nationalism is nationalism, whether that be British, Scottish or English, and will always seek to exclude.

34

Mercutio,

Falkirk 12/12/2007 07:50:29

#29 Lowland Gael? Anglified Central belters?

35

GraniteCity,

12/12/2007 07:54:04

Why is the term 'ethnic minority' still used in all these arguments. There is no such thing now unless of course you class the indginous white anglo-saxon as the minority now, there are areas of the UK where he/she is nowehere to be seen. Why must we pussy foot around like walking on broken glass in case we somehow say something which upsets our Muslim or in fact 'coloured' fellow citzens (and citizen is debatable knowing the number of illegals there are).
The other week on Radio5 there was a councillor in Birmingham demanding that each candidate, 5 in total, listed for a local council election had to be black (their word not mine), to reflect the number of ethnic minorities, well I'm sorry but there is no ethnic minority there then. When the BBC interviewer asked the councillor that if she had demanded every candidate in her local council be WHITE there would be rioting in the streets it was argued down with the same pig-headed disregard for anything other than 'coloured' gain.

36

Roger W,

Bradford 12/12/2007 08:04:26

Most muslims have never read the Koran. They are trapped by Islam and deserve some sympathy. I defy anyone to read the Koran and not be shocked and revolted by the hatred and violence of it - written by and for ruthless warlords.

37

GraniteCity,

12/12/2007 08:06:21

The Federation of Black Policemen, The Society of Black Solicitors, The Black Music Awards and I'm sure there are many many more.....but that's not racist is it. Oh no but The White Music Awards no doubt wouldn't be allowed.

Incidentally I always think the thing that brought it home to me about the intolerance of the Muslims to anything other than their own 'faith' was when Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1991. When the UK and US forces rushed to help and liberate Kuwait again, the Saudis would not allow those thousands of troops stationed there to celebrate Christmas. I was astounded at the time, if I had been Gen Shwarzkopf (sp?) I would have told the troops to pack up and go home for Xmas and let them sort it out themselves.

38

Scot-free,

In a bubble with Hume Smith & Ferguson 12/12/2007 08:07:17

Muslims in general do not accept any law outwith the Quran which literally means submission. now I have respect for their outdated claptrap even though at times it does entail stretching credibility until it tweaks. Do we want to live in a society which is regressing? The Quran has only one law for Muslims and it is the law of the Quran.

39

John S,

12/12/2007 08:12:30

#33-Mohammed married Aisha when she was 6-years-old, consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. He was then, 54 years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

40

Iain fae Elgin,

London 12/12/2007 08:18:50

"What would have happened between 1939 and 1944 had there been 5 million Germans living in Britain?"

Media 1.....they would have been interred for the duration, with no complaint from any of the local population.

41

Iain's,

Spain 12/12/2007 08:22:55

When Sharia law comes into force in England, may I please be considered for a job with the religious police. The thought of thrashing little muffins within an inch of their lives for their immoral clothing excites me!

I also note that many of the critical comments come from outwith the UK. Does this mean that the UK has already been conquered and that you are too frightened to comment?

42

Roy,

12/12/2007 08:26:53

Is the glass half full or half empty?

The headline equally could have been 'Half of Scots do NOT see Muslims as a 'cultural threat'...'

Must be a slow news day.

43

Mercutio,

Falkirk 12/12/2007 08:28:42

#41 How far back do we have to go?

44

Boy Wonder,

12/12/2007 08:44:51

Many Muslims do integrate into the community. It is the hardline orthodox adherents of whichever sect that does not.

You want to point a finger of blame? Point it at the mosques where the imams radicalise the young Muslims and whip them up into their terrorist activities! There's where the problem lies!

Root out the imams who preach imposition of their "faith" and Sharia law and throw them out!

45

Tory Heaven,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 08:48:46

"Half of those surveyed considered the increasing number of Muslims in the country as a cultural threat"

Erm, yes, and why exactly is this a reprehensible view? I think it's fairly obvious that ever increasing numbers of immigrants who have no intention of embracing their adopted country and its culture is self evidently a 'cultural threat' as it must necessarily dilute the cultural cohesion of the country they are entering. But, oh no, the sinister "One Scotland, many cutures" brigade work their hardest to demonise poeple with this quite reasonable attitude.

Wake up.

46

A Better Way,

12/12/2007 08:49:25

Being someone who makes his mind up based on how he finds the individual, there are some pretty bad attitudes out there in other parts of the World. Canada, South Africa, Australia, Sri Lanka and Middle east have expats living there who openly proclaim their low tolerance of others race or religion.

We have thousands of English People migrating to Scotland on a monthly basis. They love it up here and to me if they truly feel that then they are most welcome. I do not seperate that opinion from English People if they happen to be Muslims. Welcome to Scotland. All I ask is that you love Scotland as much as I do, and besides your love of your new country, I dont give a rats about your religion providing you accept religion as a peacefull persuit that you keep as a personal thing to you.

Honour killings and forced Marriages are not part of our culture. Equality for women is not negotable, it is a must. Scottish Law must be accepted as the way that an individuals guilt or innocence is determined. Punishment for guilt is controlled by Scots for all Scots. The Koran is second in all matters that determine human rights. Do these things and live a peacefull life and I will defend your rights to the bitter end. Wecome to Scotland.

47

Judge&Jury,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 08:55:21

Anybody tried out one of these surveys in a middle eastern country?

Do you think that the Muslims might come out as racist if they were only given a few limited questions?

If you read how the questions were phrased, you soon realise that the PC Brigade and equality Junta are keen to drum up some more work in "re-educating" the evil Scottish racists.

Some new questions?

- If you speak English and another language is it right that you speak the other minority language while in mixed language company? (thereby excluding the people who don't speak the other language)

- If you work in an industry that has >95% of one particular racial group is it acceptable to only employ more of that race to ensure harmony in the workplace?

- If you are living in another democratic country is it acceptable that the majority who follow one religion have their religious celebrations modified to ensure that minority religions are not offended?

Isn't it easy to get the type of answer you want by asking the questions you want?

48

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 08:55:44

Half of Scots probably enjoy reality TV programmes as well.

While it's understandable to be concerned about the rise of extremists - being muslim itself is no crime and considering they are what 5-6% of the population it's hardly cause to be quaking in our boots.

Who would have thought though poor, uneducated people don't like foreigners, homosexuals or gypsies?

49

Paul Voltaire,

12/12/2007 08:59:24

#50
Sometimes you even meet folks who are all three at the same time.

50

Phibin,

Stewartry of Kirkcubright 12/12/2007 09:06:05

in yesterdays news I read that teachers in the UK are not teaching kids about the Holocaust any more for fear of offending Muslims who claim it never happened.

The BBC now calls them Islamists for fear of offending Muslims.

Islam is an arab religion invented by an arab to impose control over arabs in the desert, and like many other major cults to allow the leader himself to do whatever he wanted (muliple wives, paedophilia, legalise killing of non-believers etc).
Our traditions are very different and as a nation we are tollerant of others but not to the point of submission

51

Jim Kearney,

NYC USA 12/12/2007 09:06:41

Prejudice comes from the word Pre Judge.
My Judgements came AFTER they murdered 3,000 of my fellow "infidel" countrymen, and brother firefighters.

I didn't have any problems with Islam until they flew planes full of innocents into the World Trade Center;

AFTER the Spanish Train bombings

AFTER your London 7/7 train

AFTER seeing signs at the "cartoon" riots saying ;
"IF YOU INSULT ISLAM WE WILL CUT OFF YOUR HEADS"

AFTER all the killings of women IN THEIR OWN FAMILIES for being alone with a man.

AFTER seeing a parade of Palestinian little boys searing Jihad head bands, with toy bombs strapped to their chests.

AND AFTER seeing Muslim PHYSICIANS, and SCOTSMEN? trying to bomb Glasgow Airport

All this while the general Muslims living among us continue to make excuses for them, secretly admiring them.

Other than that, I have no problem with them.

52

carrottop,

Dumfries 12/12/2007 09:14:46

Spot on 3# and 5# not often there are intelligent posts in the early morning.
Why do we need 20,000 immigrants a year, we can produce our own given some incentive like jobs for men to support families. Where are all these jobs that the immigrants are going to fill, if the present is anything to go by they are going to be filling jobs and leaving Scots on the dole. Have the people who come out with these facts ever had to look for a job recently? or are they nice and comfy in their own little world looking out on others.

53

Rico Ganz,

in the toon the day 12/12/2007 09:15:05

I agree with dave from Barra about Scottish culture. I can imagine King Brude complaining about those blasted Scotti not integrating into Pictish society. Our culture has and always will elvolve. I no more fear a Muslim than i feared an Irish man or a Russian before that.

54

Courtney,

East Molesey 12/12/2007 09:15:33

Not an unreasonable position on the face of it.

55

Eric D,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 09:17:42

What people are rejecting is liberalism. The short term politicians are currently embarking on a big experiment and nobody knows where its going. Worse still they have no mandate.Mass unchecked immigration is a recipe for disaster and in particular the unchecked variety from Pakistan and Middle east .Combined with multi - culturalism and a insideous PC brigade this country is likely to be swamped and permanently damaged. Take a look the the current turmoil in France ,Belgium, Holland and Sweden not to mention England. USA , Austrailia and NZ have very strict immigration policy that weeds out the "bad eggs". 15 years experience travelling round Europe and USA , I have seen what immigration has done the low countries in particular. I urge people to stop the mass , unchecked immigration, before a new "untouchable" underclass develops. Follow the Denmark , Switzerland, USA , Australia , NZ route. Retrict immigration to high skilled migrants only, and immigration from Pakistan , Middle east otherwise we are heading route one into a disaster.
Take a look at the emigration number for England, Holland and Germany. Why are people emigrating from booming economies ? , People are simply rejecting the failed multi-culturalism. I urge people to consider this very carefully, politicians only care about 5 year term the rest have to think about our grandchildren. nobody wants to stop immigration , but we need a sensible policy.

56

Paddi,

12/12/2007 09:17:55

Why are some Muslims being radicalised? Maybe, just maybe it's something to do with the continuing slaughter of their own and the policy of "divide et impera" in Palestine and the Middle East. I certainly don't condone what they do to us, but let’s just remember what we're doing to them too.

57

Number 6,

Germany 12/12/2007 09:19:00

Of course they are a threat. Just look at the state of "English Identity". You can't even discuss it down south without people shrieking "racist". How many councils allow their constituents to fly the cross
of St George?. Look at how X-mas, as a religious tradition has been practically banished for fear of causing offence. Causing Offence? how dare they,
why oh why do they want to even live in a society
that is an affront to their religion?.

No Islam in scotland has to be kept under control.
This should be easier once we get rid of the last labour run council, and can assert our own national identity and culture in our own country. Anyone "offended" should leave for the islamic state of their choice.

58

Sinnerman,

Another Planet 12/12/2007 09:19:35

There will always be a limit to tolerance. Some members of ethnic and religious minority communities push the limit of our tolerance. If you wish to call me an infidel and disrespect my culture and traditions, then do not expect me to respect yours. If you wish to fight against my friends and comrades, then I will fight back.

It is not racism. It is resentment at the preferential treatment that 'minorities' receive.

59

eric,

Lothian 12/12/2007 09:20:23

I would have thought calling your child Mohammed would have had the same reaction as calling a teddy bear Mohammed,
I made a democratic choice never to set foot in any corner shops run by Muslims,After the attacks in NYC,Several of my local shops after it could not contain their delight,I wouldnt have liked to see their reaction to the Glasgow & london attacks,Many pensioners and folk stopped using the shops and a few have closed since,

60

Scars,

Hamilton 12/12/2007 09:20:59

What is the lowest common denominator here?

It would seem that in the evolutionary path of man, in these early days of the 21-century, colour is no longer the determining factor for an outburst of intolerant, bigoted racism. It still exists, but that is merely a reflection on localised morons or indoctrinated fodder.

As much as it may infuriate some, the "white man" was mostly to blame for this. The slave trade and the attitude towards the "dark continent", Asia etc. These were sub species and you don’t have to look far for documented evidence.

Mankind has made quantum leaps in the last 50 years as the global war changed the face of the planet, and the face of the person next to you, in many instances. Stick 5 random races on a deserted island and leave them to survive ... They will bond, they will cooperate and integrate to be a homogenous group... Individual dialogue will prevail, but tolerance and understanding will too as they have a common goal and understanding... The problem is not race....

The real problem is religion. This is what divides us; this is the cause of the pain and the divisions. For sure, there is a group of our species that "war monger" and will do forever more ... Maybe the geneticists can take care of that?

When, as a species, we fabricate lunatic stories and try and force this upon the will of intelligent people in a dangerously dogmatic way, with considered implications and threats if you do not sympathise, you create a volatile mind that is prone to suggestion, and these suggestions can be anything once you get them believing in fairy stories, all aimed at control and power over the masses (sic).

Religion is an evil tool. Mankind has yet to grow the balls to stand tall and face up to this fact, it is too engrained in the culture as a control mechanism, its too big a lie to start backing off from. It’s a self-perpetuating pile of nonsense and needs removed from our e

61

,

12/12/2007 09:21:04
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62

Scottish AND British,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 09:23:06

#12 and #50, thank goodness for some liberal common sense. Reading some of these posts, I was getting ready to emigrate myself (obviously not to Jim #54's USA, though).

As is so often the case in these discussions, the people who use 'them' so freely need to stop and think for a moment. There is no 'them' - 'they' are all individuals, and while some may be evil it does not justify tarring an entire group with the same brush, or extrapolating from certain incidents to cover millions of people. That's just pure laziness.

There are some bad Muslims, and there are some bad Scots, and there are some bad Christians, and there are some bad atheists. Let's not think in terms of them and us, please!

63

Scottish AND British,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 09:25:01

#64 Boab - fantastic -my #65 point exactly, but far more succinct and witty. Well done.

64

Anthony,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 09:25:24

Even these reports, are starting to look "discriminatory". Why does it always focus on the views of indigenous people towards muslims and seldom the other way round? As I say, these report authors, seem to be baseing their work on discriminatory premises.

65

Scota Nostra,

12/12/2007 09:25:56

Whilst in Birmingham recently I noticed a sign outside a mosque which stated."There is no God but Allah." In a supposedly Christian country, why do we allow this to happen? According to a Muslim I worked with until recently, the concept of Islam is to convert the whole world, no matter how long it takes. With our way of life under threat, why is it always us who have to show tolerance? The attraction of this country is it's people and freedom of speech, why then do outsiders come here and try to change this? At present, Scotland is seeing only the tip of the iceberg. It's already too late to change what is in motion, however, it should take our minds off the ridiculous Catholic/Protestant situation.

66

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 09:27:30

#63 As Richard Dawkins says " With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

67

Boab,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 09:29:21

According to MI5 less than 1% of UK Muslims are involved in terrorism in any way. While the vast majority of Muslims are law abiding citizens they deserve the same rights are the rest of us.

Or we could always start calling on the government for religious Apartheit. And more wars.

#59 Well put Paddi!

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0...

68

Boab,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 09:32:32

#69 Scota: You know they worship the same God, right? Allah is ancient Aramaic for God.

#67 Scottish AND British: Cheers! Glad to know there's still some sanity out there.

69

Scars,

Hamilton 12/12/2007 09:34:12

70 ..

Nick Byrne

Indeed ... And he was not delusional .....:>)

His wife gene ? "God", she is selfish .....

70

carrottop,

Dumfries 12/12/2007 09:35:24

68# Most non indigenous people have chosen to come and live here, the indigenous did not chose to have them.
Having been in their countries and lived in East London for many years I know they do not like us and that is the reason many non mulsim do not like them.

71

Sinnerman,

Another Planet 12/12/2007 09:39:22

Will anybody dare to measure the 'carbon footprint' of the Hajj?

72

LochLomond,

The Vale 12/12/2007 09:40:55

West Dunbartonshire council hung up the "Xmas" lights in Alexandria a couple of weeks ago. The main feature is a sign saying "Welcome to Alexandria", no mention of Xmas being allowed for fear of offending whoever.

Now I wonder where my apprehension about the rise of Islam in the UK is coming from?

73

Number 6,

Germany 12/12/2007 09:44:18

#71 Boab, The threat is to our cultural identity not our personell well -being. You do not have to be a
terrorist to affect the balance of culture. As I said previosley, with any luck the last labour run council in Scotland will soon be a thing of the past and a strong Scottish Cultural identity can be established.
People of the moslem faith will be able to live within scottish society but they must learn to respect the culture in which they live.

More light should also be turned on muslim attitudes towards Scots and not keep their very aggressive
racist and bigotted behaviour hidden like they do down south, refusing to publish the masses of immigrant crimes. Luckly there are sites like "I am an Englishman" that track and publish these crimes.
Go to that sight, the revelations are truely shocking.

74

Pinelands,

PINELANDS. Where the heart is 12/12/2007 09:51:56

#65 SCOTTISH AND BRITISH

Please Hark.

Until Scottish and British came along with his poster and his wonderful fantastic observations I was ready to succumb

What does he have to say

There are bad Scottish people there are bad Christians there are bad Muslims there are bad Apples.

Look we know all this but I have not seen in the papers or anywhere that other than our dear Muslim friends have blown up the Twin Towers the Glasgow airport the Londem underground the London buses etc, etc

Nowhere have I read that some Scottish or Christian was resposible for blowing people to bits in the name of whatever.

Just stop being so stupid with your ultra stupid comments about bad apples

Most people agree its the total lack of control of immigrants to this country that is the promlem, when the government losing control and it has, we are in serious trouble

75

,

12/12/2007 09:55:41
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76

Grimsby Hibee,

In the Dam 12/12/2007 09:55:55

I bought a teddy bear for 10 quid but I have just sold it for 20 on E Bay.

Now I've got the bloody Sudanese muslims after me for making a prophet out of a teddy!

77

LochLomond,

The Vale 12/12/2007 09:56:22

Did you know that 40% of Musilms in the UK want to see Shariah Law imposed here?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006...

Would you be happy to see women being stoned to death in George Square?

Here's the truth about it, http://www.shariah.net/sharia-law/

Am I wrong to be a teensy weensy bit concerned about this?

78

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

12/12/2007 10:07:43

#25

1. Judgement or opinion formed prematurely or without due consideration of relevant issues.
2. Prepossession or bias in favour of or against anything.
3. Unthinking hostility.
4. Injury or harm.
5. Disadvantage.

So all this is "PERFECTABLY acceptable", is it? What if it were aimed at people simply because they live in East Lothian?

Interesting most of the comments have referred to Muslims. "While attitudes to gays have improved..."
- but still one in five disapprove of civil partnerships, 51% think it is right that B&B owners can refuse accommodation to gays (on what basis?) and on the question of primary school teachers the majority polled thought it was wrong that a gay or lesbian should have such a post (on what basis - confusion with paedophilia? proselytizing? - objective evidence, please?)

I realise that this post will divert other posters from their relatively recent Islamophobia to good old LONG-established home-based homophobia, but what the hell........it's PERFECTLY acceptable in a modern civilised society such as ours.

79

conservative,

Fife 12/12/2007 10:08:24

#54 Jim Kearney

Yes, we all thought much the same when the IRA were being funded by the good old US of A to do much the same things over here. Why don't you keep your unwelcome nose out of things Scottish?

80

LochLomond,

The Vale 12/12/2007 10:08:38

I think it also worth pointing out that in the UK (currently!) one can totally disagree with the teachings of a religion without being discriminatory.

It's called freedom I believe.

81

Scot-free,

In the Netherlands under a Niqab 12/12/2007 10:09:38

coming as I do from the Netherlands I am a witness to the daily erosion of Dutch liberal culture by these religious fascists and their in sistence on the importance of their GOD forsaken bneliefs above all else. The murder of Theo van Gogh was probably the nadir and the government in thier desperation not to offend is serlling my adopted country hook line & sinker. Dutch girls are humiliated and made out to be whores while the squeaky clean Muslim girls in thier chaste headscarves are well-nigh worshipped. The inner city suburbs are a den of hate and brutality almost always perpertated by the Morrocan youths who feel alienated by Dutch society while actually they are just thugs and invoke their sickening religion when it suits them just like they do in Paris. Enough is enough not only that they have absolutely no sense of humour mind you when you see what most of them are married to I fully understand the need to cover up! The west is in danger of relinquishing control over its intellectual and cultural heritage to an ever increasing bunch of frenzied heretics. So if these backward racist thugs want a war BRING IT ON!

82

Media 1,

cape town 12/12/2007 10:12:10

#78 Pinelands

I hear what you are saying concerning bad apples. And you are correct, they exist in all cultures, religions and creeds.
However, in this instance whilst one must accept that not all Muslims are terrorists, one must also accept that of all the terrorists, most are Muslim.
And therein lies the problem.
It is also worth noting that there is a huge difference in consciousness between the Muslim world and the Western world. If a Muslim person were to walk into Hyde Park this afternoon and burn a cardboard cut out of Jesus whilst stamping on the Bible, people would think he was mad. Most would ignore him, some would tell him what they thought of him, and someone maybe punch him!
But if a westerner in Islam stamped on the Quran and abused the name of Allah, he would be murdered on the spot.
If a muslim wants to build a mosque in Europe, he can do so, but when a Westerner wants to build a church in Islam he or she will be killed. That is not a fabrication of the truth, IT IS the truth!
All of these things cause resentment in the minds of westerners. When British born and educated Muslims then vecome terrorists and blow up local British people in the name of this Allah, would it not make sense for us to ban this Allah worshipping? But we dont, because we are on conscious level, which exceeds the boundaries to which their minds are shackled.
I see no reason why Scottish people or Europeans at large should embrace Islam, when Islam does everything in its power to destroy, ignore, disrespect and agitate western culture!
That does not mean that I condone or support attacks on innocent Muslim people, off-course I dont, and anyone who commits such acts must be arrested and then jailed. But in saying that, if a person does not warm to Islam or the muslim faith, or if a person is against Islam or the muslim faith, then I can understand their position and support their right to dislike based on whatever reasons work for

83

Dr A Galbraith,

Florida 12/12/2007 10:13:35

#80 lololol

Try this for an antithesis....

Man admonished at Paisley Sheriff Court for bestiality.

Judge cited the charges as "simply without foundation as there is no way in the world a Paisley man would ever have put anything into a Kitty"

Wonder if Basil Brush will become popular with Muslim Kids.... BOOM BOOM.

84

truthsleuth,

12/12/2007 10:15:20

'Equality groups said such attitudes are unacceptable in the 21st century and called for the "silent majority" to speak out against prejudice'

What sort of idiots are these 'equality groups'

who are the 'silent majority'

Who is being 'discriminated against'

Who wants to 'kill the infidel'

Islam the religion that puts its 'religion first and country last'

You can go on forever but always the self righteous pc lot will stand upon their superior intellectual superficiality and trot out their mantra 'we cannot tolerate the intolerant'

85

conservative,

Fife 12/12/2007 10:16:01

#82 Major General Puffin-Stuff

You've got your phobias mixed up.

Islamophobia is a fear of muslims - and quite well-founded given the hellish terrorism that they have supported over the recent years.

Homophobia would be a fear of homosexuals (or perhaps homosexuality). I don't know anyone who is frightened of homosexuality. Disgusted perhaps, but not frightened. Read your Bible.

86

Black & White Triumph,

Green Road Park ....soon 12/12/2007 10:20:11

Militant liberalism is a threat to a burgeoning democracy it is thought police at its worst, don't dare say anything nasty or bad about some-one else you might offend them, if some-one runs into my car while I am stopped they will kop an earful whether they are wearing a bag over there head or a horrible green and pink sweater.
People need to take responsibility for their own decisions in life, if you become a muslim you will attract a lot of scorn than if you became a Bhuddist and there in lies the difference - Perception

Bhuddists are thought of as nice pacifist tolerant people who go about there business without anyone of them demanding anything of you other than normal respect and tolerance.
Muslims on the other hand demand that they have special priviledges applicable only to them, that all others modify their apprach such that their sensibilities are not offended and if they are expect them to march demanding that you get out of places that belong to them or they will kill you or worse.

These polls about peoples attitudes are ridiculous its the attitudes of the interpreters of the responses we are seeing.

Would I be concerned if my son wanted to marry a transexual, you bet I would, would I be concerned if he turned out Gay, you bet I would, but when is concern a bad thing, what i do with my family and those I associate with I will continue to do and will not back down if some-one with no association to me or my immediate associates tells me I cannot do it any more because it might offend some one, I play golf, watch football, work hard, read the books which take my fancy, spent time on ther internet, drink beer and laugh at lifes absurdities and the shame is that more people cannot see that this subject is one of the dangerously biggest.

87

Lianachan,

Northern Highlands 12/12/2007 10:21:06

#36 Indigenous white anglo-saxons? We're mostly Pictish/Norse hybrids up here.

88

Girlfriend,

Seattle,WA 12/12/2007 10:23:16

Scotland has always been a country of wide racism. The Border Scots Calvinists who populated the Virginian towns and hamlets were the originators of the Ku Klux Klan and kept their kind in ignorance and mystic belief and today the offspring of these uneducated Scots are still the underclass of American society who lisen to Fox news, praise Wal Mart (Junk Mart) listen to Rush Limbaugh and believe that George W. Bush was sent by God. They drive cars with bumper stickers that say Drink Coors Lite and Nuke Iran. They work for Newell Rubbermaid and hate liberals and were happy to take an eighty cent an hour pay cut because Junk Mart threatened to buy plastic pails and plastic scoops from Mexico. They are bred racists from a Calvinist cult that can be found in the voting practices of every red (republican) State and one only has to visit the the working class hovels of Scottish towns to find evidence of a poorly educated
populace who are kin to the guitar plucking hillbillys of Virginia, Arkansas and Tennessee. Many of the comments that regularly appear in this newspaper, on any subject display much of the same ill educated bigotry we hear coming from the mouths of these descendants of the Border Scots.

89

Scot-free,

In the Netherlands under a Niqab 12/12/2007 10:24:02

Coming as I do from the Netherlands I am a witness to the daily erosion of Dutch liberal culture by these religious fascists and their insistence on the importance of their GOD forsaken beliefs above all else. The murder of Theo van Gogh was probably the nadir and the government in their desperation not to offend is selling my adopted country hook line & sinker. Dutch girls are humiliated and made out to be whores while the squeaky clean Muslim girls in thier chaste headscarves are well-nigh worshipped. The inner city suburbs are a den of hate and brutality almost always perpertated by the Morroccan youths who feel alienated by Dutch society while actually they are just thugs and invoke their sickening religion when it suits them just like they do in Paris. Not only that they are not averse to kidnapping and raping under-age Dutch girls and putting them on the game. The Morroccans of the 3rd generation are on the whole a vermin on Dutch society and are becoming almost uncontrollable. The time has come to take a stand. Enough is enough! not only that they have absolutely no sense of humour mind you when you see what most of them are married to I fully understand the need to cover up! The west is in danger of relinquishing control over its intellectual and cultural heritage to an ever increasing bunch of frenzied heretics. So if these backward racist thugs want a war BRING IT ON! Ayaan Hisi Ali was right and the cowards in the Dutch government dropped her likea ton weight, we do not want 14th century rules & regulations and maybe all these middle eastern cess-pools of corruption greed and sickening i ntolerance should be asking themselves whty are we so backward?
Just the othert day an exhibition of Mohammed and his dad as a couple of gays has been refused permission to exhibit by yes you've guessed it the Dutch labour minister of culture! Multi-cultularism is dead and buried and as far as I am concerned the Quran should be burnt as it is not a book b

90

jdships,

12/12/2007 10:25:20

12. Dougie Wells, Sydney, Australia

"Lets not talk of tolerance (what do you think it feels like to be tolerated), but acceptance. "


Agree totally with that : unfortunately it appears , at least among Muslim shopkeepers, that it is very much one sided.
All too seldom do you get a smile a please or even a thankyou when in one of these shops.
I always say thankyou to the person serving me be it in a Supermarket or Corner Shop and expect the same back
I have worked in Arab countries and had to learn very quickly to "accept" their way of life : why not immigrants to this countryt
There seems to be no problem with Polish , Serbian etc workers accepting our way of life !!!!!!

91

monboddo,

12/12/2007 10:26:49

ONS figures for 2004

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=979

Number of working age muslim males in employment was 56%, number of females only 13% (in a period of historically high employment levels). I've nothing against muslims but its clear that further mass muslim immigration is not going to solve the projected labour shortage.

92

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

12/12/2007 10:27:04

#89

You mean the "Christian" version of Sharia law?

93

Tweedmouth,

12/12/2007 10:29:49

It may be true that 'not all muslims are terrorists' but it does seem overwhelmingly true that 'most terrorists are muslims'.

The UK has never been conquered since 1066 - though we have largely been ruled by Norman invaders for that thousand years. France, Holland, Spain and Germany have all tried to invade Britain repeatedly in the last 500 years but never succeeded in placing more than a few dozen of their hostile troops on British soil.
They were usually trying to invade to impose their view of religion on us (Spain, France etc.) thoguh sometimes it was political ideology and dictatorship (Hitler, Napoleon).

What kept us together in the face of such aggression was 'social cohesion' - we were mostly white, overwhelmingly Christian, and we shared a common culture, language, history - and above all values: democracy, equality, habeas corpus, separation of church and state. The Civil War of 1644 - 50 period occurred because the King believed he had absolute power - the Divine Right of Kings - and saw his allegiance to the Pope in Rome. Cromwell and the common people believed in elected parliaments, Kings with severely limited power - and allegiance to nobody but the British State.

The current loony Labour ideologues and Europhiles have in less than 10 years flooded the UK with a tidal wave of alien cultures under the insane delusion that we will all just 'integrate'. Muslims,. whether they are from Pakistan, Somalia, Afghanistan, Uganda, Albania, Armenia, Kosovo or wherever will never integrate. Their 'hardliners' despise us, our culture, our history, our values. They are theocratic, anti-democratic and mediaeval in values. They want to impose Sharia Law which subjugates women, demands the death penalty for gays, adulterers and anyone who dishonours the family or clan. They advocate death for anyone who converts to Christianity and the remedy for anyone who opposes Islam is , well, ....DEATH.

The UK has not faced such a clash of val

94

faddy,

Germany 12/12/2007 10:31:39

Islam is a danger to the whole world. George Bush too I know, but Islam is the biggest threat without a doubt.

95

,

12/12/2007 10:32:34
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96

Mcsnagpile,

12/12/2007 10:32:46

Diversity should be encouraged, love different temples-- Hindu, Buddhist, especially Taoist and Chinese pagan temples. You can burn Hell money or even burn a pair of slippers to send up to your granny, or give the priest a few coins to beat the drum and ring the bell, as a prayer to ancestors. You can pray to the white Tiger, or burn the boss’s eyes out on rice paper. Edinburgh needs a few of these temples. I remember Saudi customs officers impounding the statue of an elephant. They said it was an idol (Ganesh). They were not aware of their many idols such as materialism.
One temple I visited had the skulls of all the dead monks on display--not ghoulish but very comforting. We should build a temple in Buccleugh St.

97

Gusto,

12/12/2007 10:33:07

"break down the stereotypes" he says!
And what is more stereotypical than burqas and hijabs?

98

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

12/12/2007 10:34:21

#89
Stuff your Bible up your a**e, old boy!

99

conservative,

Fife 12/12/2007 10:36:51

"You mean the "Christian" version of Sharia law?"

Yes, spot on!!

It's survived for the better part of 2000 years and still forms the basis of 99% of our law and culture (believe it or not this is predominantly a Christian country - if you doubt it just check what box people tick when asked which religion they are).

And no bad thing.

And just to make the point once again, it doesn't fear or condemn homosexuals but deprecates the pracice of homosexuality.

Now, back to Islam - there is something both to fear and to speak out against.

100

Sumas,

12/12/2007 10:37:43

I welcome all honest, hard-working immigrants who seek to integrate.

I have my doubts about how convicted immigrant criminals are dealt with. It seems that they can linger around the place indefinitely after conviction.

Foreign criminals must be deported swiftly from our shores, and greater effort must be made to keep criminals out.

101

Stephen faeCraiglockhart,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 10:38:47

I think we have to distinguish several quite different things that are going under the name "prejudice". In particular (a) disagreeing with Muslim beliefs - e.g. that the Koran ought to be read in a particular way, is the Word of God and (b) supposing that someone who has read it with some respect is stupid or wicked etc.

I think the problem arises that religious beliefs do and should affect other aspects of our lives, so some degree of "prejudice" in recognising this may in fact be reasonable.

(There are some other obvious problems that not everyone from Asia is a Muslim or westerner Christian. And of course "racism" as such.)

102

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

12/12/2007 10:43:42

#103

Suddenly "disgust" becomes "deprecate". One thing is for sure - there is nothing more disgusting than an out and out bigot hiding behind the pretence of "Christianity"

103

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 10:46:41

#79 I am most certainly not a Lib Dem - I just don't believe in getting out the pitch forks and firebrands because someone is funny looking or sounding.

Strangely, I believe condeming an entire ethnic grouping because of the actions of a few as moronic in the extreme - otherwise there's very few people we'd have dealings with.

We don't condemn all people from the basque country as eta terrorists, all Tamils aren't a member of the Tigers and believe it or not most people in Northern Ireland are not members of the IRA or UVF - this is little different.

Every Muslim I know is much the same as every christian I know save only in their methods of worship. They present no threat to my way of life.

104

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 10:48:25

I have no problem with Race, Gender, Sexuality.

I am also a devout atheist and have no problem with Christians, Jews, Buddists, Hindu's, Taoists, etc, etc.

Islam however has and is a distinctly aggressive and highly political cult with a ready made system of laws. A previous poster described it as designed for Warlords and it is exactly that. A barbaric death cult with a ready made rule book for social order written by people with no education. Why do we accept 8th Centuary morality when would would not accept 8th Century science or technology.

Islamic moderates are those who are ignoring parts of the faith. Extremist as we call them are just 100% muslim adhering to the rules of the Qu'ran, Hidith and Sharia Law.

Yes there are parts that talk about peace but there are many more parts that talk about killing the unbelievers. As a complete works it is a repulsive faith especially to Women.

At the moment the Muslims live by our laws because of they are politically weak and militarily feeble. Point to any country in the world with a Islamic majority and blood flows freely. Especially of the Women.

The P.C fools who are openly welcoming the Muslims will be the first to go. Islam has no place for gays, diversity or discussion.

A few examples of acceptable Muslim Practice from the worlds press.


More than 40 women have been killed and their bodies dumped in the streets in the past five months for behavior deemed un-Islamic - Basra Iraq, Alarabiya.net 10/12/07

But regardless of their veracity, suspicion alone can be enough to get a woman killed by distant relatives looking to "cleanse" the family honor when there is talk of an illicit relationship. According to local organizations, such murders have risen in the Palestinian territories to nearly 50 this year,West Bank, Palesine, csmonitor.com, 19/11/07

Saudi Arabia's foreign minister said the kingdom's judiciary was reviewing a sentence of six

105

Lianachan,

Northern Highlands 12/12/2007 10:49:26

Rampant consumerism, "happy holidays", junk food, "trick or treat", obesity, group hugs and gun crime - is nobody concerned about the "cultural threat" posed by creeping Americanism?

106

Lord Luke Ingood aka Charley Farley,

hameldamey 12/12/2007 10:50:27

I will be spendin xmas in melbourne with my sister and her white british/irish friends/neighbours. Prior to this she lived in Saudi and socialised with white british friends/neighbours.
She also lived in germany where she socialised with white british....etc You get the picture.
It's a natural sort of homing instinct to gravitate to to an area/people that is friendly and or familiar.

An iraqi/iranian/albanian etc movin to the UK isn't gonna join the masons or KSC, or rotary club or the Women's Institute or Legion Of Mary etc.

They're gonna find their own level and councils that deliberately house immigrants in the same areas aren't helping either. How many are housed in newton mearns, bearsden, lenzie etc??!!

107

Hamish MacBeth,

NZ 12/12/2007 10:50:27

12. Dougie Wells, well said mate.

108

SAW,

Cumbernauld 12/12/2007 10:55:59

Scottish culture is determined by our true origins.
We have welcomed into our country and into our lives peoples from all lands. We are admired the world over for our friendly, approacheable nature, we travel well and take an interest in the cultures and languages of other peoples of the world - evne if for the latter we only make the effort to learn a few words of the languages of others.
We took Andrew, the disciple, as our patron saint, welcomed John Knox from Ireland, we welcomed the beliefs of John Calvin. People from the Irish, Indian, Pakistani, Chinese .....communities are our neighbors, work colleagues and friends. We would prefer that everyone intergrated - while having tolerance for different cultures and religions (where those associated with them - practice their beliefs in their true form and exhibit no hatred to others). Our acceptance for all people is because we know that we all came from the same origins, the same parents (Adam and Eve) - have all fallen from perfection - and carry in our genetics those of the eight people who walked off the ark. We know deep down there is only one belief system at our root - "Christianity is Jewish" - Judiasm and Islam have a common branch. So many religious beliefs have deviated from their original "stalk" and principles. We do not hate other religions - we love all peoples - but hate what people do (because of sin) to each other (terrorism, racism, lack of compassion......). We are not homophobic, for we have no fear of such things, rather abhor wrongdoing that damages human beings and is away from that which is natural. We love the sinners - but hate the sin (as God does also).
We are Scottish....we need to remember where we came from...we need to know where we are going.

109

Tourist Guide,

12/12/2007 10:59:45

#103

And what percentage of our "predominantly Christian country" actually GO to church? Surely that is one of the requirements? Or is it just enough to think you are a Christian? Just asking, because many other faiths, and those with no faith at all, share many of the same principles concerning ethics, morality, etc.

110

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 11:00:37

And its not just the women. Its all of us who want to live outside of Islam.

The world is divided into the House of Islam and the House of War, the Dar al-Islam and the Dar al-harb. The Dar al-Islam is all those lands in which a Muslim government rules and the Holy Law of Islam prevails. Non-Muslims may live there on Muslim sufferance. The outside world, which has not yet been subjugated, is called the "House of War," and strictly speaking a perpetual state of jihad, of holy war, is imposed by the law. The law also provided that the jihad might be interrupted by truces as and when appropriate. In fact, the periods of peace and war were not vastly different from those which existed between the Christian states of Europe for most of European history.

The law thus divides unbelievers theologically into those who have a book and profess what Islam recognizes as a divine religion and those who do not; politically into dhimmis, those who have accepted the supremacy of the Muslim state and the primacy of the Muslims, and harbis, the denizens of the Dar al-harb, the House of War, who remain outside the Islamic frontier, and with whom therefore there is in principle, a canonically obligatory perpetual state of war until the whole world is either converted or subjugated.

111

Media 1,

cape town 12/12/2007 11:00:43

I imagine that what will eventually happen, is that the West will eventually treat Islam and other parts of the world, the with the same disrespect that they offer us...When that happens, all Muslims living in the Western world will be sent home....
It could happen, it is not that far fetched. And it would happen quickly, once the police and the armed forces have been ordered to carry out the removal of all non ethnic Europeans, they will be out quickly!
It sounds like a far fetched brutal movie. But in reality, if Europe begins to suffer economically and socially due to a lack of respect to Western values by Islam or African people, then it will happen! World war 2 was not that long ago, and we are more evil now than we were then.....This world is terminally ill, and the cancer is spreading! And none of us is free from blame

112

conservative,

Fife 12/12/2007 11:04:46

#106, Major General Puffin-Stuff

'Suddenly "disgust" becomes "deprecate". '

You're playing with words General. Homosexuality is deprecated in the Bible and disgusts me - 2 quite separate things and 2 quite different points I made.

It doesn't affect how I see homosexuals. I don't think that holding and expressing an honest view is in any way bigoted. YMMV.

113

antifa,

12/12/2007 11:08:35

#92 that is probably one of the most bigoted things I've ever read, and I suspect you're not generally a bigot. Do you really believe that the Scottish race is innately racist? That genetic links between communities in the Southern States and in Scotland account for the political similarities of both? Well, this is pseudo-scientific nonsense if ever I saw it - and much more suited to the right-wing idiots you decry.

And it's not backed up by the empirical evidence, I'm glad to say. The fact is that Scots are generally a social democratic bunch (all the main parties are left-of-centre, the Tories are tiny up here), quite unlike the US red states. And Scotland is a secular society, not Calvinist or any ther -ist. Ignore the green-ink brigade above - they are not representative and if they were I'd be on the first plane out of here.

114

conservative,

Fife 12/12/2007 11:09:11

#113, Torist Guide

I think that you'll find that the 'church' referred to in the Bible is the body of believers not any particular building. And yes, of course many faiths share many of the same beliefs. It's the ones that are different that make the difference.

115

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

12/12/2007 11:13:40

#112

What is it about same sex relationships based on mutual love and commitment that "damages human beings"? Isn't Christianity supposed to be based on love?

So why do 20% of those polled disapprove of mutual love and commitment in the form of a civil partnership?

Many heterosexuals indulge in promiscuity, with the huge increase in STDs, and all kinds of sexual practices not approved of in the Bible which seem to attract less opprobrium from the godly than homosexuality. Why, please?

116

Pinelands,

PINELANDS. Where the heart is 12/12/2007 11:15:56

#86 MEDIA 1

We seem to be on the same wave length and I entirely agree with you - again.

We know there are decent Muslims and they cannot all be tarred with the same brush.
but when its terrorism, they never seem far away from the scene.

117

Vaquero,

Manila 12/12/2007 11:21:32

Once again a newspaper article is placed before us shrouded in a web of mystery and confusion.

The Muslims, all Muslims believe in the Quran, the Quran tells them how to live their life. It tells them that all non Muslims (You and I) are "Infidels"! That is we are all devils.

Now with a belief such as that how can any one trust a Muslim?

If any muslim out there wants to dispute the above, then let that Muslim deny the Quran. Otherwise let the media tell everyone what that insidious book says, and let the people think for themselves and come to their own conclusions.

Always we must say no to Islam until such times as the followers of that faith deny those parts of their so called holy book that defile the beliefs of others who are not Muslims.

Read: e.g. http://www.somebodyhelpme.info/words/words.html

118

Tourist Guide,

12/12/2007 11:22:54

#118

Now I understand. So what you're saying is if, as a humanist, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist or whatever I share similar general ethical and moral beliefs as a Christian, then I am a Christian?

Isn't it also just possible that people tick the box about which religion they are out of habit rather than conviction, so so few of them actually do go to church?

119

Scars,

Hamilton 12/12/2007 11:28:38

120 .. dangerous ground me thinks ... Agreeing with media 1 .... You may regret that !!

Actually, joking aside, I understand what he said and I understand what he is implying, but, and this is the big question, what neither of you do is offer any answers as to how you'd deal with it ....

Its easy to state the obvious.... What is not so obvious for me is, what do you do about it?

Answers on a post card please !!!

Scars

120

conservative,

Fife 12/12/2007 11:29:08

#122 Tourist Guide

Yes if you believe in Christ as Saviour. But this particular belief is only part of the Christian church, so the other faiths you mention (all others in fact) are whatever they are but not Christian. Many many faiths are based on ethical and moral standards.

And yes, anything is possible. But why would you disbelieve someone who called themself a Christian. Is it so unlikely?

121

,

12/12/2007 11:32:41
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122

Media 1,

cape town 12/12/2007 11:40:36

#123 Scars

I am uncertain as to how to deal with this problem in a manner that works for all parties concerned.
But maybe we dont need to find a solution that works for all parties, maybe we need a solution that works for Britain, or Scotland if you want to localise it.
Personally, I would pass a law that banned ALL mosques and all Islamic dress codes throughout Britain. I would agree to Muslim people practicing their religion within their homes, but that is as far as I would allow it to go!!!! That way, people of a Muslim faith are not being denied the right to practice their religion, they are being denied the right to practice it in Britain, and therefore, can leave Britain for the comfort of their own nations and the religious and cultural experiences that come with such a move. At first there would be an outcry, but it would blow over eventually, it always does once the dust settles...

123

thinking,

Scotland 12/12/2007 11:42:16

#97
Perhaps if we had held to our Christian values then Muslims would have nothing to complain about.
Many (not just Muslims) have come here over the years because of our values. Now, in general, we seem to have lost our way.
Most religions have similar values and most religions have some fanatics who 'interpret' their scriptures etc to 'prove' their fanatical ideals.

124

Tourist Guide,

12/12/2007 11:51:02

#124

So being a "Christian" is being anything to any man (or woman, of course - unless you're Paul, who was a well-known misogynist, and probably among the one in seven who think a woman's place is in the home). It all sounds like the Liberal Democrats!

"Many many faiths are based on ethical and moral standards" (of which you as a Christian approve, presumably) - as is Islam. So why do you seem to tacitly accept Islamophobia, given the "hellish terrors" YOUR faith has unleashed in the past?

125

Boab,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 11:55:53

#123 Scars: I'm glad you asked the question of what to do with those evil, war-mongering Muslims.

To date, the only answers I've ever had on these threads are:

1. Give the government powers to get rid of religions it doesn't like
2. Start some more wars

Maybe someone will come up with something new today?

126

Neale,

Scotland 12/12/2007 11:57:49

Many of you are talking as if God actually exists. At present I am allowed to be atheist and want to keep it that way.

Non-Muslim everywhere should be very wary of the Muslim faith as it does not allow us to live as we please, without being labelled as infidels and being treated as lesser than the faithful. Don’t forget that this faith has travelled by way of conquest for hundreds of years, it’s not new to them. They will take it all inch by inch unless they are told when to stop.

The UK is a secular country and we should have one school system that fits all, not Catholic, or Protestant and now people want Muslim schools too. Most kids are not that interested in religion and can see it’s a lot of nonsense, until told otherwise. If children grow up knowing their neighbours they will have less chance of misunderstanding and fearing them.

127

Silence of the Yams,

12/12/2007 11:57:50

Not a matter of race. Islam is a threat to all Western values, not just Scotland's or the UK.

128

Boab,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 11:58:06

#126 Media 1: Yes. Fewer civil liberties for Muslims. That'll get rid of the whole terrorism problem.

129

Heinrich,

Maritimes 12/12/2007 12:03:29

If anyone is interested in the early stirrings of the Al Wahhab movement (in link with the Saud family in northern Arabia) in the eighteenth century, read Grant's Scottish Soldiers of Fortune (and, if anyone has the guts to publish it, my book on a Scottish aspect of the subject).

130

Arch,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 12:06:33

Send them all back, they are ignorant and I have never seen one of them smile when they serve you in the shop, plus they don't even say thank you please come again.
Our glorious council issued warnings to workers that they are not allowed to send each other Xmas cards, as this will offend the Muslim workers.
The Muslims are playing the game, you just need to disagree with them and you are told you do not like me I am Muslim.
Scotland is a christian country so let us keep it that way, are we allowed to build chapels and cathedrals over there, no, so why should we allow them to build their Mosques over here. We now see them in the House of Lords, next thing we know there will be a Muslim Queen when the big take over is done, they are slowly taking over and winning.
I was never racial until now, when I see my country being taken over by all these people, by the end of this century the Scots will be a minority in their own country.
When I visit my doctor or dentist who do you see taking up the majority of places in the queue, Asians and some Poles, this is why our NHS is running dry.

131

Media 1,

cape town 12/12/2007 12:10:53

Boab #132

I am happy to hear you agree!

To be honest though, I am not so sure that fewer liberties will reduce the terror, but it might make it more difficult for some of the more radical clerics to source their prey...
What it will do however, is strike a balance between the West and Islam concerning civil liberties...

132

Grimsby Hibee,

In the Dam 12/12/2007 12:12:50

All religion is boll*x anway, might as well believe in the tooth fairy or Alice in Wonderland has just as much validity. Its for people who act like sheep hoping there is an afterlife, b*llsh*t, the only afterlife your going to have is a decaying corpse to feed the maggots, therefore contributing back to mother earth's foodchain. Enjoy life its the only one you will ever have!

133

stargazer,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 12:18:18

FOR GOODNESS SAKE! How can you people justify thinking that EVERY SINGLE MEMBER of a certain faith is to be held responsible for the actions of a FEW people?

I can't even express how angry everyone's small-mindedness makes me. Have you people never heard the expression 'take people as you find them'? How would you like your whole personality to be judged by one aspect of your lifestyle? Or even worse - by the colour of your skin.

Can you all spare a thought about how it must actually feel to be a Muslim in this country right now? They're subjected to bullying en-masse and the media just encourages it.

134

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 12:27:02

How about we have all muslims wear some armband with a geometric pattern or arabic script on their arms so we can identify them?

And then maybe encourage the populus to notify the authorities if any of the armband wearers aren't living up to their civic duties.

In fact better yet, we could put them all in a cordon off area of our cities, and only let them out to work in our factories and businesses.

135

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 12/12/2007 12:27:18

I, too, am concerned about what the imams and other Muslim leaders are "preaching" at their mosques and other social gathering places.

When I see them stream out of these places all smiles and handshakes and pats on the back - MEN ONLY of course - I wonder if they are basking in the benevolent grace of God-Allah that has occurred at the service they have just attended or is there something more sinister at hand.

I feel guilty sometimes about this suspicion because some of my friends are Muslim and decry vehemently the Islamists and the more radical and wacky pronouncements of Islamic "scholars" and "interpreters" who have a definite agenda that is many times in direct contradiction of the writings of the Koran.

Scotland is a very unique country with its own accent, dialect, cultural and social history and I cannot see many Scots accepting this influx of immigrants without protest even though this article mentions that they are needed to save the Scottish economy from "collapse".

Why have so many countries in the world come to the situation where their economic feasability is dependent not on citizens born in the country- of whatever race, colour, or creed - but on increasing the immigration levels to bolster production.

Where and when will the breaking point come and will it be at the expense of retaining the particular national and historic characteristics of Scotland, England, France, Canada, etc?

136

Jasper,

12/12/2007 12:29:24

#137 The actions of the few (i.e. the thousands of acts of Islamic-inspired terrorism we have seen over the past 10 years or so) are consistent, some would required, with the apparent beliefs of the many. Any who want to leave face being murdered as apostates, Truly they are in a wretched position. As Churchill once observed, there is something unsettling about dealing with people who believe they will go to heaven if they slit your throat. The best we can do is to help and support those who want to escape from this ugly and oppressive control system.

137

Allan(handofgod137),

12/12/2007 12:31:17

They only have themselves to blame, if they don't like it they can always leave.

138

Iain D,

London 12/12/2007 12:32:41

One answer is to give the Muslims the same rights in this country as Christians are given in a Muslim Country. After all the way Christians are treated in their own countries must indicate how they expect to be treated in another country. Since Saudi Arabia conatins the two holiest Islamic sites and is one of our allies, I suggst we use it for the guidance.
A self appointed Christian Council berating the political system allowed or not? Special treatment at work on a Christian Holiday? Christian demonstations on the streets of Ridyah calling for the death of a senior politician?
Are they allowed in Saudi; No? Then should we allow it in our country?

139

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 12:33:04

Hello Tourist Guide,

What you understand about the Pauline Epistles, is well illustrated by your ignorant post concerning him and his writings.

He was illustrating Biblical Doctrine, as directed by the Holy Spirit (unless otherwise noted), and one can see that he did NOT consider women of less value then men, when you're honest enough to read ALL of what he wrote concerning men and women.

Churches in his day were mostly in WOMENS' HOMES: he starts a number of his epistles to various people and cities, addressing a particular woman who owned the house.

Now if he were a misogynist as you claim, he wouldn't bother naming the woman, much less stating unequivocally, that the people he was addressing, were DEPENDENT upon that same woman!!!!

Further, he notes quite clearly, that God does NOT delineate between a man and a woman, concerning their value to Him.

Wake up and get rid of your outrageous anti-Christian bigotries!

Lastly, 48% of ALL Muslims in Britain WANT Secular Law REPLACED by Sharia Law. These are FACTS, which poll after poll have confirmed.

Goodbye freedom of speech!
Goodbye freedom of conscience!
Goodbye freedom of thought!
Goodbye freedom of movement for women!
Goodbye freedom of religion!
Goodbye freedom to be atheist!
......and the list goes on!

Honor killings will become the norm in Great Britain, just as they are in any Islamic nation right this very minute.

Canada is a good example of that very FACT!

'Good and faithful' Muslims, REJECT Secular Law in favor of Sharia Law, to the point of MURDERING their own daughters, sons, wives, sisters, etc.!

But NONE of these FACTS daunts you, a Neo-Theorist, in the least: you'd rather believe the Rad Left Social Progressive drivel you continue to tout, rather than the FACTS at hand.

You'll so do, UNTIL you are faced with the very real horror of becoming the victim of Sharia Law.

The Scotsman article i

140

Boab,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 12:34:13

#135 Media1: Lowest form of wit, I know.

Thing is, I like the idea that I could convert to Islam if I felt like it. Would I have to report to the Thought Police to get registered? Start wearing #138 Tim's armband?

141

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

12/12/2007 12:35:58

#139

Could the answer be the economic system we have long embraced and taken to our hearts?

142

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 12/12/2007 12:36:06

Some of you understand that most muslims aren't fundamentalists. The rest of you are the problem.

143

Grimsby Hibee,

In the Dam 12/12/2007 12:38:27

Believe in a supreme being ? As Captain Blackadder once famously said.

“ I would rather take a stepladder into no-mans land, climb to the top and smoke a cigarette through a luminous balaclava.”

What a load of sheep, muslims, jews, hindus, Christians, think you will be sadly disappointed suckers!

144

NittonLover,

12/12/2007 12:38:34

I really can't believe what I'm reading here. Gross generalisations, since when has the BNP taken over these boards?

So "Most terrorists are Muslims" are they? What complete unsubstantiated tripe. The rank hypocrisy in this country makes me laugh, at the same time there was a "riot" in Sudan over the teacher, on Radio 5 they read out a whole serious of texts demanding all Sudanese be "expelled" from the UK!!!

All racism is wrong, no matter who is perpetrating it. Please don’t use the “war of terror” as an excuse to indulge in it.

145

wattie>x 1,

12/12/2007 12:43:00

I am certainly not one of the 50% Scots who see these people as threats to my way off life?

The most serious threat to all off us. is the retention
off an out-dated Establishment who are determined by hook or by crook to retain their superior status quo, and if necessary, enable our total destruction if they so desire.

We have in the disunited UK the oldest and craftiest
ruling class in existence on planet earth who know every trick in the book that determines how the ordinary people and their families live and survive.

They have successfully turned the UK, with the aid off the most dangerous un-democratically elected government in modern political history into a police state with a regimented 24 hour surveillance from the minute you close the door of your home; even to do some simple activity such as shopping.

Our democracy has become a laughing stock and is a total sham ever since 1997 when the New Labour Champagne socialists with the aid of such people as Rupert Murdoch, big business, disillusioned former Thacherite Tories flocked to join their ranks - some even being rewarded when given cabinet positions by both Blair and Brown.

We people in the dis-united UK have never been consulted at any time, whether we we desired a multi-racial or multi - cultural society by both Tories or Champagne Socialists. We have never been consulted either - whether we should be co-erced into participating in five undeclared wars which has brought so much death and grief to so many innocent people and our young service personnel, most off whom would have been alive today to enjoy the pleasure of looking after their families.

We are shackled with non-principled, ambitious political careerists controlling our destiny; the majority expert at lying and riddled with corruption, yet we are prevented from removing them with an ancient and outdated political system disguised as democracy and freedom.

This system is similar to that which

146

,

12/12/2007 12:45:23
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147

Lianachan,

Highlands 12/12/2007 12:46:16

I can't believe the Scotsman has allowed commenting on this article. Many of the comments posted here would get the poster arrested if it was something they said out on the street.

148

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

12/12/2007 12:46:30

#143
Neanderthal (Well-named)

I understand you are a "Christian", and I believe CARITAS/LOVE is at the heart of Christian belief, NONE of which ever seems evident on your accusatory, strident, didactic postings. The teachings of Christ himself seem to have very little impact on your world view, including "Love your enemy".

No doubt you will cherry-pick from your extensive knowledge of the Scriptures to refute that central tenet.

Cheers from Scotland.

149

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 12/12/2007 12:50:23

In the last UK census, 2.7% stated their religion as 'Muslim', and 1.7% stated 'Jedi Knight'.

The question I am asking is how many Jedi's have joined the Dark Side?

150

NittonLover,

12/12/2007 12:53:39

Media 1 - again you repeat it!!! Show me the evidence that "most terrorists are Muslim"???

So the Maoist Nepalese groups are really Muslims in disguise are they? And the Tamil Tigers too??

151

stargazer,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 12:54:13

#151 Yeah you're so right. I'll come back once I've got myself some reacist opinions then, shall I?

One question though - do you think for one minute we treated every single Irish person with suspicion and contempt when the Troubles were on going? We all know the answer to that is no...which means your theory doesn't fly.

152

Boab,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 12:56:04

There is always the spectre of Muslims voting in a totalitarian state like Iran as soon as they out-breed us; trouble is, if we throw out religious freedom for Muslims, we can't pretend that we still live in a democracy.

Plus, Muslims tend to be a lot more liberal when they're no longer living in dictatorships - like the ones we support across the middle east. All the ones I know are pretty reasonable people.

153

NittonLover,

12/12/2007 12:58:40

The "baying mob" that demand death to the teddy namer, was actualy only a few hundred people. That is FACT (as you would put it Media 1).

154

Media 1,

cape town 12/12/2007 12:59:01

#155 NittonLover
Are you so naive to believe that the international terror we are speaking about is a result of the Tamil Tigers? Cmon dont be so naive!
We are discussing international terror and whether you like it or not, the Muslim world is responsible for most of that terror.......

155

Ben Arty,

12/12/2007 12:59:46

One summer night this year, I went to a dinner in Glasgow. Returning to my hotel in Bath Street, I wandered up Sauchiehall Street. There was a crowd of cheering people around a seating area in the middle of the street, and I went to see what they were cheering. It was a couple having sex, the young man holding up the woman, her buttocks exposed.

In the lane linking Sauciehall Street to Bath Street, a fight was taking place, with much shouting and swearing, and immediately round the corner, a very drunk young woman was being violently and tearfully sick while her staggering friends tried to hold her head above the pavement.

I'm not Disgusted of Morningside; I'n not a prude; I'm not anywhere near retirement age; I have not led a sheltered life. But I was offended and shocked, and actually intimidated, by what others around me told me was commonplace for a Scottish City centre after 11pm.

The culture which nurtures and tolerates it is anathema. I can understand why some might want to eliminate it.

156

Media 1,

cape town 12/12/2007 13:02:10

#158 NittonLover

Lets call it 20 then....They were demanding that she be killed for naming a teddy bear Mohammad.
What about the twin towers, the American embassies in Nigeria, Mali,the London bombings, Madrid and the many other muslim terror attacks of which one happened yesterday in Algeria..
Do we just pretend they never happened?
You sound like a terrorist sympathiser!

157

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 13:04:48

Hello Lianachan,

Your post 152 just about says it all!

Just what happened to Freedom of Speech in Great Britain?

How in the world can any sane person expect ANY subject which is controversial to be solved, if people can't speak their minds, WITHOUT the Politically Correct Brown Shirts coming out and arresting people?

Have you people decided to live in a Police State, or merely chosen to reconstitute the old USSR, or taken the political paradigm of the PRC (People's Republic of China)?

Man, have you a spine or not?

Cheers from the Rockies.

158

NittonLover,

12/12/2007 13:08:44

Media 1 - What a sucker you are, you have fell the whole "global Muslim conspiracy" line that is the excuse to the US and the UK to waste billions of pounds and thousands of life’s to get hold of Iraqi oil and curb our freedoms.

The muslim word is not more united than the old Irish provos where.

159

Paul Carline,

Scotland 12/12/2007 13:09:30

It's astonishing just how many people have swallowed the myth of Islamic terrorism - not surprising as the lies have been constantly repeated by politicians and the servile mainstream media.

Let's inject some facts into this debate:
- no evidence that any 'Arabs', Muslim or otherwise, boarded any planes allegedly used to strike the Twin Towers (there is no evidence for planes at all at the Pentagon and Shanksville)
- no evidence of any link between Osama bin Laden and 9/11 (official FBI statement)
- ALL the available evidence points conclusively towards 9/11 having been an 'inside job' - with the 'war on (Islamic) terror' being a massive scam designed as a pretext for the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq, the demonisation of Muslims and the curtailing of civil liberties; the 'war on terror' is a classic war OF terror by the state on the people
- no evidence that the four alleged London 'bombers' were on any tube train on 7/7; the 7.40 train from Luton which the government claimed they were on was cancelled; they could not have got to London in time to board the tube trains.
- no CCTV evidence from London at all (the world capital of CCTV surveillance)! All four CCTV cameras on the bus were switched off/malfunctioning - just coincidence?
- no ricin plot
- no 'liquid explosives' plot (you can't make liquid explosives in a plane toilet)

As a previous poster said: the Muslims are the new "reds under the bed" - the fake external enemy the state needs to create fear and maintain control.

It's time to Wake Up!

160

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 13:13:05

Hello General PS,

Allow me to point out something that you may well not have considered for quite some time: pointing out empirical evidence is NOT anti-Christian, anti-Biblical, or anti-christ, in any way, shape, or form!

No hand picking needed Gen.PS, the FACTS of the MANY polls done in Great Britain (and on the Continent for that matter), have proven again and again, that 'good and faithful' Muslims DO in fact, want to replace the Secular Rule of Law, with Sharia Law.

Now, you may not want to believe that is the fact, but the numbers of polls and the numbers of the polls, prove you wrong.

This is the difference between a Theorists and a Realist: you believe something to be true regardless of the facts in evidence, whereas I believe what the facts tell me is the case, regardless of what it is I may want to believe.

The bottom line is that I've studied the Noble Quran for the last 6 years and after reading it, studying it, and researching it, I have zero qualms in stating that a more intolerant religion does NOT exist on the face of the Earth, than Islam.

How about you pick a copy of the Noble Quran up and start studying it, before you suppose to tell others what 'good and faithful' Muslims really believe?

Cheers from the Rockies.

PS. Oh yes, once again the English Educational System has illustrated its short comings. My people, Neanderthals, were the first humans to illustrate belief in an afterlife, to bury their dear departed as just that; beloved, rather than as mere offal without worth.

You homo sapiens learned that from the Cro Magnon, and they learned it from US.

Cheers from the Rockies.

161

Holmesmydear watson,

Flat Earth Society 12/12/2007 13:18:56

I have never met a Muslim, nor a Christian, nor a Bhuddist, nor many of the other religious societies that lurk around this planet. I have met people who believe in such mumbo jumbo and call themselves jewish/muslim/christian but I have also met Hibbees and Gers on the same basis.
Notwithstanding current science, we are all born the same way and we will all without exception die. The time in between may be shorter and more unpleasant for some more than others. What we learn and what we do in between being born and dying is all that really matters.People in general should bear this in mind before they indoctrinate children with the poisonous nonesense that passes for many religous teachings
If you wish to waste your life worshipping one or other pile of sticks in the hope that something will be better in the afterlife, then that is entirely up to you. But, if you consider that your beliefs are more important and relevant than mine, such that I must obey your 'code' then, you and I are not going to be able to rub along. To 'rub along' is the best that most of us can hope for, in such a diverese world. The colour of your skin may be important to you but you, along with me, had no say in the colour of your skin, we are what we are. Get on with your short life and stop trying to screw everyone's else's up in the name of religion and political correctness
PS I don't expect to go to heaven, it'll either be entirely empty of full of people I never wanted to meet in the first place

162

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 13:19:22

Hello Paul,

Firstly, please exhale and step away from the Bong!

Secondly, drop the bottle of uppers from you hand, take the crack pipe out of your pocket and throw it in the garbage, and lastly, flush the Crystal Meth down the Loo!

Now, I won't go into detail, as your statements are truly institutional (as you should be my dear fellow), but allow me to say that from Osama bin Laden's own lips, have come the statement that he and Al Qaeda were in fact, responsible for 9-11.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammad master minded the whole plan, Zubaydah financed it, and the videos prove who went on the planes.

Try to achieve a semblance of reality here.

I must further point out, that Madrid, Bali, Algiers, 7-7, the USS Cole, the Embassy bombings in East Africa, take your pick, have ALL been confirmed BY AL QAEDA, as having been THEIR OPERATIONS.

Now, if you feel you must continue in your mindless drivel, go retrieve the crack pipe, light up the bong, and then indulge, because if you continue to believe such conspiracy drivel, you're a waste of air, space, and energy.

Cheers from the Rockies

163

Media 1,

cape town 12/12/2007 13:25:14

Nittion Lover

Yeah, I bet the mothers and fathers of the victims of 9/11 believe that America planned the London attacks....And that there was no Muslim involvement at all!!
Take one look at Islam, take a look at their infrastructures and economies, their people and their quality of life and you get the idea as to why so many of them flee for greener pastures in more responsible, organised, less chaotic and culturally diverse societies such as Britain...
Cartoon drawings spark outrage and vehement actions. Teddy Bear names cause trouble, a book called the satanic verses causes trouble!

Then we have PAUL CARLINE above. (You have to laugh at people like him, if you took him seriously you would lose the plot with him) Next he will be telling us that the Twin Towers are actually still standing and that the London Bombings were a figment of our imagination.

I am not that naive to think that the West does not have much to answer for! Our ancestors progressed and advanced quicker than our neighbouring cultures ancestors did. Therefore, we were blessed with more knowledge, thus more power! That power may have been misused, but the fact remains that we as a society are more forgiving, more accomodating, more aware of others rights, thus the reason so many people from Islam flock to Britian for a life, but hardly any of us, flock to their sh!t holes for a life.....
You cant win this arguement, then again, you cant lose it...But the fact remains that Islam is in a state of disrepair and their faith is slowly becomming a laughing stock

164

Renfrew Rant,

an undisclosed location 12/12/2007 13:30:53

Send them on their way. These people live in the middle ages and want to kill all non-Muslims and destroy our society. Wake up and smell the coffee. That isn't racism, it is protecting our society from a deadly menace, similiar to having rats in your basement. Islam is a corrupt religion.

165

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 13:32:34

Media 1 - On this issue we can agree.

#156 - Stargazer
A world filled with people like you would indeed be a pleasant and tranquil one.

The problem that peacefull and good people do not understand is that you are applying your 20th century logic to a system created by Warlords in the 10th century. Unchanged and politically very dangerous.

I am politically against all Islam. Whether they be white, black, red or brown I do not care. I do not believe in Heaven and I think how we act in this life is the important part not what is promised in the next.

If all the defenders of Islam should care to actually read the Qu'ran and its accompanying Hidith you would be disgusted. The only reference point in our history would be the holy inquisitions as an example of how they process their religionous dogma.

In light of your accusations of Racism and Islamaphobia by people who reject the Muslim way of life.

Please start posting examples of countries where muslims have control and killing is not a weekly occurance, where women have equal rights in law and where honor killings are socially rejected.

In not then stop applying how you feel and assuming this is how they feel.

If you agree with the follow fee statements then you are correct to welcome the Muslims. See next post.

166

Partan,

Fife 12/12/2007 13:34:18

#165
So, by your logic, anyone who purports to be Christian believes The Bible in its entirety, including all the more colourful recommendations it makes?
Where can we find the "many" polls about Muslims longing for Sharia Law in Britain?
Why is an individual blowing himself and others to kingdom come a terrorist but a pilot dropping bombs indiscriminately not? Does the delivery system make all the difference? Not if you're the one on the receiving end.
Oh, and incidentally, I think you'll find that most folk posting here aren't products of the "English" educational system - the clue's in the newspaper's title.

167

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 13:34:37

Life in Islamic Afganistan under Sharia Law for women. The reasons we went to Afganistan.

Source the The US State Department. 10 March 1998.

The Taliban have issued edicts forbidding women from working outside the home, except in limited circumstances in the medical field.
The Taliban prohibit girls from attending school.
Women and girls are not allowed to appear outside the home unless wearing a head to toe covering called the burqa. A three inch square opening covered with mesh provides the only means for vision.
Women are also forbidden from appearing in public with a male who is not their relative.
Women’s and girls’ access to medical services has been drastically cut back. Women are treated primarily by female doctors and the number of female doctors has been greatly reduced.
It is also dangerous for women to leave their homes. For example, one mother in the city of Farah reportedly was shot by the Taliban militia for appearing in public to take her toddler to a doctor. The child was acutely ill and needed immediate medical attention.
Taliban militia mete out punishment for violations of these rules on the spot. For example, women have been beaten on the street if an inch of ankle shows under their burqa.
They have been beaten if they are found to move about without an explanation acceptable to the Taliban. They have been beaten if they make noise when they walk.
According to one report, a women struggling with two small children and groceries in her arms was reportedly beaten by the Taliban with a car antenna because she had let her face covering slip a fraction.
Taliban edicts require that windows in houses that have female occupants be painted over.

168

Jingsitsme,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 13:35:34

Yes I would agree and why shouldn't we think that. They are making little attempt to integrate and when it suits play the ethnic minority card!

When we go to their countries we have to do as the romans do so to speak but here we have to as they do!! \yes I understand some religious ethics but that is a card played at the wrong time.

I would not sit beside anyone on a plane who is covered from head to toe!

they have caused us to have to think that way and it is in their court to change.

We never had all this conflict and trouble before the door was opened to anyone. We are fast becoming 2nd class citizens in our own country.

If they want us to change our opinion then they have to BE the change. Integrate totally and forget all this ethnic stuff. If they want that - go to their reputed homeland.

Sorry but we are funding too many terrorists and budding ones and there are no definations for recognising them so they have to deal with that.

169

Media 1,

cape town 12/12/2007 13:48:32

#169 Renfrew Rant

I can understand your frustrations, but the reason you and I live in generally peaceful western societies, is because our ancestors made it so. We are the product of their hard work...Our cities, towns, villages and nations are economic giants, which are generally safe and offer wonderful historical tours, not to mention restaurants, cafes, bars, bistro's, cleanliness, good public transport, good roads, running water, sanitation and other convenient luxuries! We have moved on, we are not stuck in the past and dedicating our lives to some bronzed aged prophet who may or may not have lived! In doing so we have got to the point in which we are able to accept other people, creeds and religions into our world because our conscious mind is advanced enough to allow us such liberal thinking!
So when we encounter a race, culture or society which is some 500 years behind us in almost every regard, who abuse the freedoms we offer them whilst treating us with total and utter disrespect, it makes us resentful, and there is no harm in that!
But I dont think that sending them all packing is the answer, because like it or not, many of the muslim people we are speaking about are British, and they belong there! But what I would do is ban all muslim practices in Britain, at least publically! No mosques, no prayers on carpets in Airports or train stations, no muslim dress and no veils! I guess that way, we can begin to move forward on a more level and eqaul playing field, which will go a long way to reducing the resentment felt by some of the British community at large..

170

sam the god,

12/12/2007 13:50:20

#164 paul

On the parallel world that you are on there is no proof that muslim extremists cut off people heads on video it is all a magicians trick and there is no proof that the terrorists that attacked Glasgow airport were muslim. It is about time you actually got out in the real world and to use your words It's time to Wake Up!

The reality is that these extremists want the world to be muslim with no other options as for the muslim council of great Britain on the whole they are usually quite about all these extremists you have to ask why they do not take a more prominent role in rejecting the extremists?

171

Busymale,

Ever seen a Muslim smile? 12/12/2007 13:52:10

They have nothing but contempt for our society, our culture and our values, so why are they here? Do you ever see them making any effort to integrate? Have they anything positive to say about us "caffers"? Are we allowed to have a say in their numbers coming in?

Good business for Persian rug salemen!

172

Saoghal Beag,

12/12/2007 13:52:35

Islam is not a reason for terrorist activities, only an excuse. In the same way that christianity has been used as an excuse for many attrocities through out the past two centuries. Whether immigrants to our country or us as visitors to other countries wish to show due respect to local tradiations and laws is a personal decsion. What we don't have the right to do is rewrite another country's legal structure.

Sadly too many people show are disrespectful of otehr's cultures and unwillinging to accept them, attempt to enforce their believes where they are not welcomed. Didn't work in the crusades and won't work today in reverse.

173

Boab,

12/12/2007 13:53:10

#165/#170 Neanderthal75: It makes me smirk how everyone on the Internet is suddenly an Islamic scholar. I take it you came across the sections in the Koran than are strictly about peace and understanding? Or aren't those bits relevant here?

#172 Jock: Right enough, we probably shouldn't have helped arm the Taleban against the Soviets.

#174 Ft Myers: Yes, al-Qaeda. We probably shouldn't have let them operate out of London before 7/7 or have armed and financed them in Yugoslavia.

Wait ... starting to see a pattern here ...

174

Tourist Guide,

12/12/2007 13:54:40

#165

Hello Neanderthal

Once again you reveal yourself in your true colours as nothing more than a blustering, ranting member of the Rad Right, adept at avoiding direct questions that are posed in order to pursue your pathetic agenda.

Please indicate exactly WHERE I have "supposed to tell others what good and faithful Muslims think".

Your appalling and pitiful ignorance of this country is revealed by your reference to the English education system, which has nothing to do with the different, separate and independent Scottish education system which was established in the 16th century.

I suspect in fact that you know little or nothing about the history, culture or traditions of this country, but such ignorance doesn't preclude you from making comments, to the amusement and entertainment of everyone here. Please keep going and make all of us laugh!

Cheers from Scotland.

175

Black & White Triumph,

Green Road Park ....soon 12/12/2007 13:56:19

some good stuff here,

Liberals, why don't some of you just for once go and tell the middle eastern theocracy that they are interfering with civil liberties of a disenfranchised minority and come back and tell us how you did, some of you were pretty quick off the mark to become human shields and stand as one against the western aggresor, could it just be that because the west allows you do do this that you do it, have the courage of your convictions and do us all a favour

Stargazer lead the way

176

Renfrew Rant,

an undisclosed location 12/12/2007 13:56:33

#174. If half of all Scots mistrust Muslims, I say that's a middling-good start. What's taking so long with the other half?

The other half work at the university and for government. They are the PC crowd and the Hate The UK First crowd. They are the ones approving all these immigrants and telling us that Islam is the 'Religion of Peace'. When you have crowds rioting and calling for the killing a teacher who allowed a Teddy Bear to be named Mohamad then you have a bunch of nutters. Find a nice deserted island in the Pacific and let them all stone each other to death.

177

Jambo-ree,

12/12/2007 13:56:49

#174 - I for one distrust Dubya and his evangelical, right wing, neo-cons a damn site more than I mistrust Muslims across the board.

Extremists of any religious persuasion are bad news and frankly IMO the world would be much better off if all religions were to be banned. So much hatred in the name of a 'god'.

178

Scunner Campbell,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 13:57:25

Find is strange that no Muslim has appeared on this.

179

Scunner Campbell,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 13:58:00

Find it strange that no Muslim has appeared on this.

180

Jambo-ree,

12/12/2007 13:59:42

#184 - How would you know?

181

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 14:01:10

Hello Partan,

Your 171 illustrates just how truly outside of reality, morality, and logic, you are in your beliefs.

Comparing a pilot dropping a load of ordinance on military targets with the scum of 9-11, 7-7, Madrid, Bali, East Africa, Algiers, or the other scum who blow up weddings, theatres, cafes, restaurants, and schools, is nothing short of truly disgusting and abysmally immoral.

Ask any of the survivors of 7-7 or the families of those who died, if they equate what the Jihadist Cowards did, with British Pilots loosing ordinance against terrorist mortar installations, or those planting IED's, or terrorist in fire fights with British troops.

You'll find that they'll give you a real world answer, and some of them quite probably will give you a knuckle sandwich for your comparison.

You truly have no clue as to right or wrong, and certainly do not understand the concept of morality or ethics. Your words prove this point.

Re the Bible vs the Noble Quran, please, go right ahead and make that vain attempt: I've studied the Noble Quran for 6 years and I have a copy in my stand, so lay to and I'll clue you in O wisenheimer thou!

If you want to see the polls, just do the research, rather than trying to get other people to do your work. Google the London Times, the Guardian, and any other major newspaper in Great Britain, for Sharia Law Poll (in Great Britain).

The Telegraph is another source. The Daily News another.....and the list goes one.....all you need to do is to actually be honest about it all.

I won't hold my breath on that aspect.

Cheers from the Rockies

182

Renfrew Rant,

an undisclosed location 12/12/2007 14:01:44

#175. Media 1
Our cities, towns, villages and nations are economic giants, which are generally safe and offer wonderful historical tours, not to mention restaurants, cafes, bars, bistro's, cleanliness, good public transport, good roads, running water, sanitation and other convenient luxuries!

I can tell you haven't been to Glasgow recently!

183

Renfrew Rant,

an undisclosed location 12/12/2007 14:03:08

Find it strange that no Muslim has appeared on this.

186. Jambo-ree / 1:59pm 12 Dec 2007 #184 - How would you know?

A- Some of the posts would have been bombed.

184

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 14:03:17

Hello Partan,

Your 171 illustrates just how truly outside of reality, morality, and logic, you are in your beliefs.

Comparing a pilot dropping a load of ordinance on military targets with the scum of 9-11, 7-7, Madrid, Bali, East Africa, Algiers, or the other scum who blow up weddings, theatres, cafes, restaurants, and schools, is nothing short of truly disgusting and abysmally immoral.

Ask any of the survivors of 7-7 or the families of those who died, if they equate what the Jihadist Cowards did, with British Pilots loosing ordinance against terrorist mortar installations, or those planting IED's, or terrorist in fire fights with British troops.

You'll find that they'll give you a real world answer, and some of them quite probably will give you a knuckle sandwich for your comparison.

You truly have no clue as to right or wrong, and certainly do not understand the concept of morality or ethics. Your words prove this point.

Re the Bible vs the Noble Quran, please, go right ahead and make that vain attempt: I've studied the Noble Quran for 6 years and I have a copy in my stand, so lay to and I'll clue you in O wisenheimer thou!

If you want to see the polls, just do the research, rather than trying to get other people to do your work. Google the London Times, the Guardian, and any other major newspaper in Great Britain, for Sharia Law Poll (in Great Britain).

The Telegraph is another source. The Daily News another.....and the list goes one.....all you need to do is to actually be honest about it all.

I won't hold my breath on that aspect.

Cheers from the Rockies

185

Jambo-ree,

12/12/2007 14:04:55

#187 - Have you checked with the relatives of the collaterally damaged civilians of these bombing raids what they think? Or do they not count as they are 'just' Muslims?

186

Jambo-ree,

12/12/2007 14:06:08

#189 So you think every Muslim is a bomber? Grow up.

187

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 14:08:17

Hello Tourist Guide,

Your rant does not do you well my dear intolerant Rad Leftist!

The Scottish Educational System IS the English system, if not in name: you get your money from London, and London REQUIRES that Scottish schools MEET London Standards, and that all Scottish teachers meet London standards.

London IS in, the last time I checked, ENGLAND is it not?

Go ahead if it makes you feel quaintly 'independent' of London, to cite some minor and even interesting differences around the periphery if you must, but please don't try to dissemble about who really controls the Educational Paradigm in Scotland.

London has so done since the Union.

Cheers from the Rockies.

PS. None of this has a hair to do with the FACT that I have indeed studied the Noble Quran for the last 6 years, have you?

CftR

188

CourtGolf,

Atlanta, GA 12/12/2007 14:09:30

Ok - First of all - Muslims aren't a race.

Next - why is it only 50% of people in Scotland have their eyes open ? Are you kidding me ? This is not an optimist/pessimist argument - this is a religion that declares openly and proudly that any and all people who are NOT Muslim are evil and should be killed. The leaders in the Muslim churches have done nothing to retract this even when there are countries around the world putting their own NON-muslim people's lives on the line to rid them of Military dictators like Saddam Hussein.

To the other 50% - WAKE UP !! These people are serious. If you think this is a new development, you haven't paid attention to history OR recent events.

189

Renfrew Rant,

an undisclosed location 12/12/2007 14:15:03

#189 So you think every Muslim is a bomber?

A- I never said that. However, recent events show that every Muslim has the potential to be a bomber.

190

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 14:18:43

Hello Jambo,

My dear fellow, apparently you've not read the Noble Quran, nor paid the least attention to the responses of 'good and faithful' Muslims the world over, concerning the Danish Cartoons issue.

Perhaps you've missed the tens of thousands of honor beatings and murders of women, which occur every year in Islamic countries?

Then again, perhaps you've not seen the editorials in Islamic newspapers, calling for the extermination of all Jews and Christians, who will not convert to Islam?

Then again, we have all those pesky sermons by Muslim clerics in Mosques all throughout Europe and the Middle East, calling upon all 'good and faithful' Muslims to kill Christians and Jews, for resisting Islam?

Mayhap you were under the weather when Al Jezeera and Al Arabiya have their 'How to' shows, you know, like 'How to Properly Beat Your Wife', as a 'good and faithful' Muslim?

Did you miss the fact that Christians cannot take Bibles into most Muslims countries in the Middle East? Nor can they build churches, much less synagogues.

On the other hand, how many mosques have been built in Great Britain?

How often are Muslim clerics allowed to preach unmolested in Great Britain?

You my dear Rad Leftist, have the shoe on the wrong foot, and only two working brain cells on this issue.

It IS Muslims which are committing the terrorist atrocities across the globe: not Norwegian grandmothers, nor Flemish fishermen, nor French Vintners, nor German Hausfraus, nor Polish mine workers, nor Italian Gondoliers.

The terrorist attacks across the globe are being carried out by MUSLIMS, in the name of Allah, and by command of the prophet Mohammad, as read in the Noble Quran.

These are not my mere personal opinions, they are EMPIRICAL FACTS.

Please be so kind as to leave you inanities on a shelf somewhere, will you?

Cheers from the Rockies

191

Media 1,

cape town 12/12/2007 14:18:46

#188 Renfrew Rant

On the contrary, I was in Glasgow only 3 months ago. I am an Edinburgh lad, proud of my capital roots, but I enjoy Glasgow. I like the merchant city, the restaurants, the shopping and the vibe! In particular I love the West End of Glasgow, the university buildings, those famous art galleries and the bustling Byers Road. I like that I can get a tube from Byers rd to Buchannan street and then hop on a train bound for Edinburgh and be home safely in 45 minutes. I also like that I can disembark at Waverly and make my way through the city centre on foot to Stockbridge without fear or incident...
Funny enough! I cant do the same things in Sudan, Algeria, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan or any of the other sh!t hole Islamic states. I can get quite close to my western lifestyle in Dubai, but then again, they have adopted a western mindset in that country, at least on the surface anyway!
We have moved on in the west, we have advances, whereas Islam is shackled a bronzed aged past and incapable of progress! Hence why some believe that 72 virgins await martyrs! Funny how such a revered god can suddenly become a pimp without anyone questioning it...

192

Saoghal Beag,

12/12/2007 14:21:20

media 1, or Lothian road at 2am on a saturday night.

193

,

12/12/2007 14:22:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1224853, Article id was mapped to record!
194

Gayle,

Big Smokey T.O. 12/12/2007 14:23:45

A Muslim man killed his daughter in Toronto because she would not wear the traditional head covering her brother was charged with obstruction of justice.
It appears that the value of life is non existant specially for women.

No wonder there is so much mistrust and fear.

195

ilovesatsumas,

12/12/2007 14:24:15

meh

196

Saoghal Beag,

12/12/2007 14:25:14

193 Neanderthal, nope we do have our own seperate education system, as we do our own legal system. both have similarities to the english systems, both have differences.

197

Partan,

Fife 12/12/2007 14:25:19

#90 Neanderthal
Sorry if my posting wasn't succinct enough. I was not equating attacking a mortar position with a suicide bombing, I was referring to what you'd quaintly call "collateral damage". Unfortunately, "smart" as it may be, our ordnance still takes out far too many innocents, whether by accident, sloppy intelligence or indifference. I'll clarify the point - if it's your family that's taken out it doesn't matter whether it was a nail bomb or a cluster bomb.
I don't think I need any lessons on morality from you just yet.

198

Tourist Guide,

12/12/2007 14:27:34

Hello Neanderthal,

Your breathtaking ignorance about the Scottish Educational System is bordering on farcical, my intolerant Rad Right friend, and probably paralleled by your knowledge of anything else outside the Rockies.

Talking of free speech, how come that EVERYONE who disagrees with you is a "Rad Leftist"? What a fine degree of tolerance you habitually display.

PLEASE do some research before you make more of a laughing stock of yourself than you already are.

Cheers from Scotland

PS Once again, the American Educational System has illustrated its shortcomings.

199

Redfive,

Dangerous times now and for ever. 12/12/2007 14:27:35

Thanks to T Bliar and Brown we no longer feel safe in our own country due to the stupidity of opendoor immigration allowing over 1 million Moslems into the UK. To further compound this outright stupidity, T Bliar sent us into a war based on lies that does nothing but inflame the million plus Muslims living in our shores.

Their culture is so vastly different to ours, they dont appear to have evolved since the 1500's with their small minded and petty ways. Death threats over teddy bears and cartoon drawing, arranged marriages, honour killings, lack of integration, fanatical, tyrannical, suicide killings of innocents, spreading of hatred, playing the PC card at every turn, constantly bleating on about being oppressed, constantly warning us they will become fanatics and then telling us its our fault if they do.

Its no wonder that 50% of scots are worried they should be, this country is not free nor should british citizenship be, we have been let down by a totally inept bunch of politicians who happily live in their multimillion pound tax payer funded detached mansions in the middle of nowhere with there 24/7 publicly funded armed guards. They of course do not feel the invasion the rest of us are experiencing nor will they ever as they lecture us on living in our multicultural society, which is total bullshlt it does not work and like most of Nu-labour cockups its something none of us had a vote on or wanted in the first place. There is no easy answer we just wait with baited breath for the next mainland attack and the government can spend another £100,000,000 trying to get them to integrate more whilst they secretly plan the destruction of our country. They already talk of their being a critical mass of their people who will no doubt be asking for a Muslim state in Bradford and in true Muslim tradition if they dont get it will start their terrorist campaign for independence and sharia law.

200

A Clamper,

Multicultural Embra 12/12/2007 14:30:26

Exactly how can a tiny minority be a "cultural threat"?

201

Pinelands,

PINELANDS. Where the heart is 12/12/2007 14:30:43

# MEDIA 1
WHY ARE YOU STILL TRYING TO GET YOUR POINT ACROSS TO THE LIKES OF#137 STARGAZER #152 LIANACHAN.

LIANACHAN STATES IF SOME OF THE POSTERS WHERE REPEATED IN THE STREET WE WOULD BE ARRESTED.
IS THIS THE POSTERS FOR, OR AGAINST YOU DONT SAY. SO YOUR POST WAS A WASTE OF TIME


WHEN THE PEOPLE FIND THEIR BACKS TO THE WALL WE WILL FIGHT BACK AND ALL THE RELIGIOUS FANATICS WILL NOT KNOW WHAT AS HIT THEM.

I CAN IMAGING IF THEY NO NOTHING BUT VIOLENCE, THEY MAY WELL WORK OUT THE ODDS OF 50 MILLION AGAINST THE 1OR TWO MILLION WHO FIND THE UK NOT TO THEIR LIKING

IT WONT BE TOO LONG BEFORE THE OTHER HALF WAKE UP.

THEN THE MUSLIM FANATICS MAY BEGIN TO REALISE THEY DONT RULE THE WORLD

202

Media 1,

cape town 12/12/2007 14:32:16

#198 SAOGHAL BEAG

Lothian Road is always dodgy at that time..

But that argument is nonsense!
That is like saying South Africa is as safe as Scotland because murder also happens there.
When you consider that only 150 odd people were murdered in Scotland last year by comparison to the 38 000 here in South Africa, you cannot use your logic...

Islam is a Sh1t hole. It stinks, it is dirty, chaotic and unpleasant.. It is backward, primitive and uncaring! It is a place where a woman can be stoned to death for being raped, or a daughter can be murdered by her father for failing to wear her veil...It is a f@cking sh1t hole...end of story

203

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 14:32:27

To all the people who think we are racist ignorants I suggest they step back and start reading.

Most of the negative comments come from people in the West who have gone to the bother of reading the Qu'ran and Hadith to try and find out for themselves what it is that Islam teaches.

If you check other comments from other posts you will see people disagreeing on a whole host of other subjects.

These same people are all one voice when it comes to Islam. We do not like it, Do not want it and I personally feel the world will be a better place when we atart concentrating on the problems we face in this life not the mythical promises of the next life.

I am certainly no a fan of G W Bush nor US foreign policy but because they are failed in their political strategy does not mean they are wrong about the problem.

I am so sick and tired of doo gooder pacifists talking about Islam is peace. Utter PISH where on the face of this planet for the last 1000 years has Islam ever been peace.

I keep asking all the pro Islamist lobby to show me. And I do not mean a few verses talking of peace I mean actual reality.

The moment the visitors to our country start wearing rucksacks and getting on buses they are no longer welcome.

Wake up and smell the semtex!

204

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 14:33:39

Media 1 - I wish I was allowed to say that in this country. But I agree.

205

Dubhglas,

South Africa 12/12/2007 14:34:31

My family comes from the Isle of Skye. I was born and raised in South Africa. I have spent time in Scotland, and fell in love with the country. I can't believe how naieve British and Scottish politicians are!! Having grown up in a truely 'multicultural society' such as South Africa, I can tell you that Scotland will NEVER survive the onslaught of mass immigration of Asians. These people have a very strong culture, and they don't accept Western liberal values. What's happening in Britain is COLONIZATION, not immigration. Have more babies, not immigrants. If you need foreign workers, import them from East Europe- where their culture is at least more compatable. What about the 45 Million Diasporan Scots living in North America and Australasia-why don't you import them? In 35 years from now, ALL of Western Europe will be in a state of ethnic civil war-thanks to decades of irresponsible 'gaste arbeider' immigration polices. I'm willing to bet money on it. It's already starting in places like Paris and the Netherlands. Celtic culture is tolerant and gentle- it will NEVER survive mass immigration.

206

Guthrie,

12/12/2007 14:36:35

Wow. What a lot of thickos are on the board today. Unfortunately they seem to be popular with politicans, thanks to their black and white vision and powerful lungs.

207

Boab,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 14:38:02

#199 Scars: I'd pay to see that!

#196 Neanderthal75: The Koran explicitly states that Muslims have to obey the laws of their host country. To get around this, radicals like Abu Hamza issue a 'fatwa'.

The fact he looks like something out of Star Trek means 99% of Muslims (MI5 figures) go on being law-abiding citizens, as the Koran tells them to.

This squares with my personal experience of Muslims: they're all way more interested in jobs, families and football then piles of mangled corpses. What nonsense you talk!

208

Guthrie,

12/12/2007 14:38:35

Duhbglas- why did your family leave Sky? Perhaps it might have something to do with the same reason the immigrants came to the UK?

the reason South Africa is in a mess is because people like you made it so, by decades of institutional racism and colonialism. Also, your dreams of internecine warfare in 35 years are rather off the mark, since we are not facing such waves of immigrants as you think.

What is this "Celtic" culture you dream of?

209

Stefan,

NYC 12/12/2007 14:39:41

Perfect example of the social affliction that devout Muslims ARE to modern society. He strangled his daughter with his own hands and her brother let it happen because she did not want to wear a hajib.

However, it's not all muslims. Just like it wasn't ALL Japanese who were Kamikaze and it wasn't ALL Germans who were bent on genocide and world domination. But, they all suffered collectively for the 'sins' of their chosen or percieved loyalties. Just like my Grandfather who lost his delis in Brooklyn during WWII. He was German in a time when it was bad to be German in the US. So goes the world. So will go Islam. Radical Islam will be brought to heel and be beaten, just like Nazism. In the mean-time, they'll all be suspect because they're members of the group that IS responsible for the threat of terrorism and the execution of the same. Tough luck for the innocents. But then, isn't it always.

210

tommy,

belfast uk 12/12/2007 14:40:57

Slowly but surely the truth about islam is surfacing-- many of the posts here show an increasing knowledge of the subject
Never forget that :-
a muslim cannot befriend a nonmuslim

and from ayotolla sistanis website-a list of najis (unclean) things
1.Urine
2.Faeces
3.Semen
4.Dead body
5.Blood
6.Dog
7.Pig
8.Kafir
9.Alcoholic liquors
10.The sweat of an animal who persistently eats najasat.

Notice how nonmuslims (kafirs)come in the top ten


a muslim cannot give charity to a non muslim unless it is to entice him into islam
a muslim is allowed to lie to a non muslim in order to further the islamic umma---- witness the out of context peaceful quotations from parts of the koran that have been abrogated.
a muslim is only expected to obey western law until he is in a position to change it.
...........................................................
Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, the leader of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)

There is, in his view, no such thing as Islamic terrorism.

"Terrorists are terrorists, they may use religion but we shouldn't say Muslim terrorists, it stigmatises the whole community. We never called the IRA Catholic terrorists."
.....................................................
Note the "no such thing as islamic terrorism"-How could it be when these people are merely carrying out their koranic orders
and the obfuscation of bringing the ira into it-as if the catholic religion were also exorting its parishioners to murder and subdue non catholics

I am sorry but islam does not mix with our freedoms.
and from 1999
the Archbishop of Izmir—Asia Minor
http://www.meforum.org/article/448


During an official meeting on Islamic-Christian dialogue, an authoritative Muslim person, speaking to th

211

Renfrew Rant,

an undisclosed location 12/12/2007 14:41:41

The immigration problem is like global warming. Many people won't take the problem seriously until the water is up to their noses. I'd say the water is waist deep now and no dry land is in sight!

212

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 14:42:09

#207 Pinelands.

I also agree that the tension is mounting. I have been a gentle soul all my life and have looked for the middle ground in any conflict.

I have been researching the Islam and middle eastern politics and I have come to my own conclusion. We either fight the battle now or later but a battle is coming.

A little bit like the 1930's Appeaser's. See quote from our PM at the time.

"We, the German Führer and Chancellor, and the British Prime Minister, have had a further meeting today and are agreed in recognizing that the question of Anglo-German relations is of the first importance for our two countries and for Europe.

We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to war with one another again.

We are resolved that the method of consultation shall be the method adopted to deal with any other questions that may concern our two countries, and we are determined to continue our efforts to remove possible sources of difference, and thus to contribute to assure the peace of Europe."

We all know what happened there.

The Islamic appologist are the same as the people who said Hitler was not starting a war. At least the Germans put on a uniform and declared war. Unlike these cowards.

213

Lianachan,

Highlands 12/12/2007 14:46:52

#207 So......inciting racial hatred is an offense only Muslim clerics should be convicted of?

214

Saoghal Beag,

12/12/2007 14:47:31

208 media 1 i was picking up on you saying that you like glasgow as you can get home from it safely to the centre of edinburgh. i was just pointing out that the center of edinburgh is not as safe as soem would have us believe.

As for SA, it certainly is not a safe tourist destination and continues to get worse from all accounts.

as for islam, well that's a religion not a place.

if you mean the middle east and north african states then yes there are some nasty dirty places there, but that is not universal and there are countries which are worth visiting. Certainly many countries which are much safer to visit than SA.

215

,

12/12/2007 14:48:21
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216

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

12/12/2007 14:50:58

Neandie,

You still out there, old boy? Come on, you wee wind-up merchant - even YOU can't really believe the crap you spout!

Cheers from Scotland

217

stargazer,

12/12/2007 14:53:04

I give up on you lot. I think the reason why all the posts on this are so extreme is because everyone with balanced opinion based on FACT rather than media exaggeration has packed up and left you lot to your narrow minded ways.

There is literally no point in trying to reason with many of the people on this - you are part of the problem.

218

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 14:56:17

#216 - Tommy

good post and further proof that the people against Islam are researching while the appeasers are holding hands and hoping it will all be ok and assuming that Islam is just like any other religion.

Being interested in Theology as a method of social control and conditioning I find Islam an excellent example of tribal mentality from the dark ages with modern weapons.

I agree with some of the posts stating we are not immune from blame in our past. It is these same wrongs that allow Islam to say it is acting in self defence. What ever the reason they want to kill non muslims. I am a non muslim and if you are too then be warned.

219

Tourist Guide,

12/12/2007 14:56:53

#222

Yeah, Hickory, but you certainly have more chance of being blasted to death on an American university campus, or even in a shopping mall.

220

Mong basher,

12/12/2007 14:56:56

Has nobody noticed what happened in the Balkans due to religious division? In 50 years will Britain be in the throws of an ethincaly cleansing civil war between non muslims and muslims? Muslims can't even live in peace with each other - shias and sunnis are always at each others throats - let alone christians and jews.

Frankly I think most religions when followed to their logical conclusion result in harm. THe "good" religious people are the ones who do not let their religion override their basic human decency and allow love to illuminate their faith rather than hate.

221

NittonLover,

12/12/2007 14:58:10

#224 - Exactly.

222

H215,

NY NY 12/12/2007 14:58:14

Glad to see so many people who realize that the Islamic belief system is not really compatible with Western Civ.

My question is: Who instructed this "reporter," Louise Gray, to write this article, and why? Who is it that so desperately wants Scots to submit to massive immigration by an anti-Scottish culture?

223

Renfrew Rant,

an undisclosed location 12/12/2007 14:59:27

#221 NittonLover

Well, you seem like a very open minded person. Perhaps you should go to a nice Muslim country and try out some of your ideas. Don't forget a change of underwear for when they arrest you.

As for your comment about comparing Muslims and Nazis, remember that the German political and military leaders thought they could control the Nazis at first. That didn't work out so good, did it?

224

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 14:59:35

Hello Tourist Gudie,

RE you 204,

The American Educational System doesn't have short comings: it's an Abysmal FAILURE! The National Education Association (the largest 'teacher's union') has lobotomized the majority of American Students, to the point of drooling idiots.

The professional politicians have aided and abetted this dastardly deed, as mindless automatons are easier to control and to bribe into voting for those same politicians and their Socialist policies.

Nothing new of course, as they've done it for the last 35 years and with no little success (sadly so).

My point about the economics and requirements emanating from London still hold however: unless London accepts a flat quid pro quo, sans any curriculum requirements being met (which I believe they do, please inform me otherwise), then London is the power calling the shots.

Please cite me some hyperlinks or some institutions, where I can do some research on the issue. I've read English sites in the past for the information which I have noted.

I've also spoken with Scots while in Scotland, whom have railed long and long, about 'the English' forcing the Scots to 'adapt' the Scottish Educational System.

Were all those Scots merely misinformed?

Back to the Islamist points I made: were they not factually correct? Building Churches in Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait, or Qatar, or the UAE, or Iran, is not allowed.

Taking a Bible into those countries, is not allowed.

YET, Western countries do NOT have such bigoted and intolerant (and am I glad for that fact) policies and laws.

Islamic countries have Religious Police, which routinely break into people's homes, to 'check' to see if anything illegal is ongoing.

Lastly, 48% of Muslims in Britain want to see British Secular Rule of Law replaced with Sharia Law: that's nearly 1 out of every 2 Muslims in Great Britain!

Google 'Sharia Law poll Great Britain' for the sourcing; papers like the Tim

225

A Clamper,

Multicultural Embra 12/12/2007 14:59:49

The knuckle draggers and racists are out in force today trying to persuade us that the end is nigh !
Actually there is a cultural threat to this country but it doesn't come from Islam it comes from the U.S.A. with its increasing influence on our media and business. Take a look at tonights TV schedules before you stuff your faces with McDonalds and shop at Wallmart Asda if you don't believe me. Have a nice night! Missing you already!

226

Media 1,

cape town 12/12/2007 15:00:47

#220 Saoghal Beag

SA is a disgrace in terms of its murder rate, but then again, these problems are typical of African rule! Whilst the old system was indeed unpallatable, there was order and everything worked! Now, nothing works, the wheels are coming off and the place is in total and utter decline! But it is still a western economy and a very modern infrastructure, until the white people leave that is!
I realise that Edinburgh has its problems, my point is that it is not as bad as other places in the Islamic world..Our culture in the west is such that we can for the most part sustain cities, architecture, tourism etc and welcome visitors without worrying about them being killed. We can offer a plethora of different restaurants, theatre productions, rail passes, shopping venues, bus rides and other experiences in relative peace and safety...We have freedom of speech and our women folk are protected, not murdered by their fathers for forgetting wear their veils..
Most of the Islamic world nations are dirty sh1t holes..Most are filthy and most offer nothing but sadness and poverty! YES, some are worth visiting, but again, those are the few who adopt western attitudes, like Dubai does (on the surface at least)
The Islamic nations are disgusting (for the most part that is)and I for one cannot stomach the stench or the primitive mindsets and will not visit there again..

227

Lianachan,

Highlands 12/12/2007 15:02:20

#229

Here in the Highlands we've had massive immigration by an anti-Highland culture for a long, long time.

228

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

12/12/2007 15:02:59

Glad to see the looney rightists from across the Pond are getting into gear.

Bogeymen, anyone?

229

Dubhglas,

South Africa 12/12/2007 15:06:25

Guthrie no. 214. I agree with your views on Colonialism-it was wrong, and it is the reason why Africa has so many problems today. My family left Skye to serve 'The Empire'- an empire which is now defunct. Most of my relatives were British Army and navy officers. I don't entirely agree with what they did. I dissagree with your views on mass immigration. Go to the Netherlands- you will see the crisis Europe is facing. A client of mine is married to a Hungarian lady. He will tell you about anti-immigation marches in Vienna, Austria- he has been there. Mass immigration INFLAMES racism, not diminishes it. My impression of Celtic society I gained while in Scotland was a gentle, tolerant, friendly and respectful society- of course there are the thugs in Glasgow and elsewhere, but having worked side by side with Asians, I can tell you their culture is much stronger and less tolerant than yours. They also have stricter family values and have larger families. Exptrapolate that over 30 years and you can easily see the crisis facing Europe. I grew up in a country with huge racial tensions-I have witnessed the problems and the causes of those problems. Britain is walking down a path she may not survive- I am willing to bet money on it. Come and spend time living in a non-European society- then go back to Scotland-you will soon see where my views are coming from.

230

,

12/12/2007 15:09:39
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231

NittonLover,

12/12/2007 15:11:24

#230 - Unlike like you I have been to Islamic countries and found them to be some of the friendliest and welcoming places to be. It is the Arab way to be like that, going back 1000 years.

Let’s compare it to how the Crusaders performed, even more barbaric than modern Islamic extremists!

And as for "sharia law", this is not normal is most Islamic countries. Don't forget Turkey is a secular Islamic country, which should be part of the EU soon.

I think some of you more radical racists should go a read some history books and actually find out some truths rather than spouting the bile picked up from less knowledgeable sources. And I really don't get the Nazi comparison.

232

Grónk,

de'Burg 12/12/2007 15:13:35

Nutty, made-up religions are all threats to civilisation.
Islam is a nutty, made-up religion and so are the rest. I don't see anything wrong in despising the lot of 'em.

233

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 15:13:52

#224, stargazer
#228, NittonLover

Why let the facts of Islam through out the world get in the way of your argument.

You have presented nothing here today except your opinion that Islam is not a threat.

I openly challenge you...... Do you have anything at all to say based on knoweldge of Islam. I am no expert I am just reading it. If I am mistaken about the meaning of "Kill" and "Stone to death" please lets be hearing it.

234

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 15:15:49

#234

they are not trying to kill us. They just want to run B&B's and join the local PTA Committee.

Not the same level of threat.

235

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 15:16:01

Hello Boab,

Thanks for your answer and your points.

I must ask you to buy a copy of the Noble Quran and start reading it. You can use the plain index to begin your study, and thereafter, when you get a 'feel' for the texts, you can enlarge your study to more intricate contextual meaning in the Suras.

Contrary to what you have personally experienced, you need to do what I have suggested, because I was in the position you are currently in: I new Kuwaitis, Omanis, and Saudis, all of whom were quite polite, very nice, engaging, and totally the opposite of what I had read about from time to time (this was in the 80s).

After 93, I STOPPED listening and reading what other people were saying about Islam and began to do a little research here and there, going beyond the academic research (history) I had done (pre-Qadaffi Libyal, focusing on the early part of the 20th century and the Sanussiya (though I did follow through right up to the deposition of King Idris).

After 9-11, I bought a few copies of the Noble Quran (different publishers and indicies) and began studying for myself.

What I found was both quite interesting and quite appalling.

Muslims are command to NOT become friends with non-Muslims; they can 'pretend' to be friends with non-Muslims (to gain some advantage over the non-Muslim and/or to lead that person into converting to Islam), but no real friendships as in the Western model are Quranically allowed.

Jews are to be killed, unless they meet particular and strict requirements, and only certain conditions.

Jews and Christians are apes and pigs, and though still considered 'peoples of the book', are at some point required to either convert voluntarily to Islam or to be converted by force. Those still refusing to convert are to be killed out of hand.

Deceit and lying are NOT sins accrued to the Muslim soul, IF the lies are told to a non-Muslim, as the Noble Quran does NOT put non-Muslims on an equal m

236

NittonLover,

12/12/2007 15:16:29

Media 1 - "I for one cannot stomach the stench or the primitive mindsets"

Agreed - now SOD OFF.

237

,

12/12/2007 15:16:40
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238

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 15:17:27

#237 - Turkey is currenty a secular country. Check back to that one in 5 years

239

Paul Carline,

Scotland 12/12/2007 15:17:54

#167 dear Neanderthal (a very appropriate name you have chosen for yourself).

I haven't touched any kind of drug in nearly 40 years - I prefer a clear head and reliance on facts. You appear to appreciate neither.

I'll repeat my offer: £100 to the first person who can name a single verifiable or verified core fact about the events of 9/11 that corroborates the official story (aka 'lie'). I've been doing this for a couple of months and I haven't had a single taker.

Where is your evidence - or do you just believe what the government and the corrupt media tell you so long as it fits with your prejudices?

240

john z,

12/12/2007 15:18:14

I don't care what colour a person's skin is. I do care that Muslims teach hatred, and reject the way of life in Scotland.

Muslims can be of any race, disliking a religion is NOT RACISM.

I have gay friends, and Muslims teach that they should be killed. To me, that is obscene.

Muslims fail to integrate, or adapt to the Scottish way of life. But they have an awfu lot to say about western morality.

Well, let's take a look at Muslim morality. Last year, two young (one was fifteen) teenage boys were publicly hung in Iran under Sharia (islamic law) for being gay. In this country when people were hung previously, there was a fall, to kill the prisoner quickly, but not so with these boys, after being led in tears(there are pictures on the net), they were hung and left to slowly choke to death.
Since the introduction of Islamic law in Iran, thousands of young boys (and girls - one as young as 12)) have been either stoned to death or hung in this way.

When events like the above or 9/11 happen, what do we hear from Scottish Muslims??? A deafening silence.

Maybe, just maybe, that is why people don't like muslims (regardless of their skin colour).

I agree it is time for a muslim reformation, but it ain't gonna happen, as the clerics like their absolute power.

241

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 15:21:20

Neanderthal75 - I too have made the leap from hearing what people want to believe the Qu'ran says and bothering to actually read it myself.

Do you notice the appologists are all emotional and feel bad about the anger.

The people who are researching are all very worried.

242

Tourist Guide,

12/12/2007 15:22:45

#231

Hello Neandie,

Do I detect the merest touch of humility, or even a scintilla of doubt concerning your knowledge of things Scottish?

So you've met a number of "railing Scots" and accepted hook, line and sinker what they say. Scots love being critical, but it doesn't always make them correct. Would you be that stupid and naive if it were fellow Americans?

May I, just for starters, recommend:

www.rampantscotland.com

You might like to Google "Scottish Education".

Definitely recommended is :

www.scottish.parliament.uk

Cheers from Scotland

243

Calum Crubag,

12/12/2007 15:23:38

Wow, for once i agree with the Scatman. Being anti-Musilim is not racist. Muslims included many different races, including some white Scots and Brits.

However, Islam is a dark age and backward faith - just like Christianity and Judaism. Most thinking people would laugh at the Wee Free maniacs in Leodhas so why can't we condemn these maniacs - and remember, even the 'moderate' ones would be up there with the BNP in terms of social tolerance.

244

NittonLover,

12/12/2007 15:26:16

#239 - have you read the bible recently! There is plenty of stuff just as bad in it.

There many fundamentalist christains that believe every biblical word, even revelations - who are arguably more of a threat to world survival than Islamic extremists. (and some of them are actively seeking out the rapture)

245

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 15:28:58

Hello Nitton,

You my dear fellow, are the quintessential Rad Leftist and Politically Correct Nutter!

You've obviously never studied the Noble Quran, because I can see that you do NOT know what is written inside it.

Further, you cannot even distinguish between Arabs and Turks, and quite apparently don't know the difference in the modern history of the two distinctly different peoples!!!

I can get a great Efes lager beer throughout Turkey.

I would be murdered out of hand in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc., unless the Religious Police got there first, in which case, I'd be beaten all the way to the jail, and then beaten again in jail.
After the Kangaroo Court got through with me, I could receive a sentence as 'light' as a mere couple hundred lashes and a decade in jail, OR if the court is feeling peckish, I could be put to death!

Ah yes, Muslim tolerance at its best!

Further, I must point out that this issue has NOTHING to do with 'racism', but your use of the term speaks volumes as to your level of ignorance about Islam and Muslims.

'Muslims' are NOT a 'race'; therefore, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a non-Muslim to be a 'racist' if that person is anti-Islamic. There are black Muslims, white Muslims, brown Muslims, Chinese Muslims, et al, from many races.

Muslim means a member of the Islamic Religion Nitton, NOT a race. Please keep that in mind, once your PC diatribes are in full swing, will you?

Honor murders across the globe; husbands murdering their wives because they SUSPECT that their wives MIGHT be unfaithful at some point in the future!
Rape victims sentenced to torture and long prison sentences, because they didn't have 4 male witnesses to the crime!
Vicious clitorectomies of the most horrendous natures, being visited upon pre-pubescent and pubescent girls, to make sure they stay 'faithful' to their future husbands.

Yes indeed Nitton, MILLONS of 'good and faithful' Muslims believe in such th

246

Stephen faeCraiglockhart,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 15:33:42

Thanks guys - you have persuaded me to buy Charles Taylor's book on Multiculturalism. I can kind of see where the BNP guys are coming from emotionally, but it looks a bit naff in cold print somehow.

247

Stephen faeCraiglockhart,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 15:35:58

Incidentally, as a semi-Christian, I too have rad the Koran. It's not all that unlike Christianity, though to my mind the New Testament has a kind of depth, if not the clearness, that isn't quite there in the Koran.

248

Guthrie,

12/12/2007 15:36:07

A fair answer, Dubhglas, except for one or two points- firstly mass immigration is not exactly continuing. Secondly, the alleged demographic wave of muslims is also not happening anything like what its promoters think it is, or will.

Thirdly, you have just described what most countries and cultures are like in their home territory, tolerant and respectful. The problem comes when you mix in imperialism with massive culture shock as modern technology takes over. this has created problems, which the ranting idiots on this thread see as opportunities to spread poison, whereas by acting sensibly you can help ensure that these other cultures return to more peaceful ways.

249

Redfive,

Dangerous times now and for ever. 12/12/2007 15:36:28

250. NittonLover

There many fundamentalist christains that believe every biblical word, even revelations - who are arguably more of a threat to world survival than Islamic extremists.

Go on name this people who are a threat to us ? Dont just throw vague one liners in back up your misplaced love of all things Muslim with some fact, who are these christians who in their millions would kill persons for not being of the same religious faith ?

250

john z,

12/12/2007 15:36:38

#193

Education is fully devolved, and fully under the control of the Scottish Parliament, as is health, transport, law and order.

The westminster government has zero authority over Scottish education, health or transport or law and order. Period.

It may not seem like it if you watch BBC news 24 or SKY news, but when they refer to these subjects, they are only ever referring to England and (sometimes) Wales

Please feel free to check your facts. Try here;

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/ukpga_19980046_en_1

251

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 15:41:08

Hello Tourist Guide,

Thanks for the hyperlinks, I'll use them to good advantage.

Would I believe a bunch of Americans were they to tell me 'x', and then a bunch of Canadians were also to tell me 'x' as well?

Probably, until I had the chance (and interest) to check on what I had been told (as was the case with Islam).

I wasn't interested beyond a cursory measure, as to whether what I had been told about the Scottish Educational System was right or wrong to that particular degree.

I must also point out that I start from the premise that the person(s) with whom I am speaking are NOT liars, allowing the speaker(s) in question to prove themselves on that particular point.

When I combined what I had read/heard in England, with what the 'railing Scots' (SNP supporters mayhap?) had told me, the two different points of origin for much the same information seemed logically plausible, particuarly when looking at who was footing the bill for the Education System (tax monies coming out of England and remember, this was pre-1999 political agreement on the SP).

Anywho, I'll do the research, as my curiosity is now truly piqued.

I would like you to address my particular points pertaining to the Noble Quran if you would.

TG, I like to learn, rather than merely represent a position just for the sake argument. I do like to push people's buttons from time to time, so that is a personal failing of mine.

What I get a real chuckle at however, is the mindless drivel from posters, who haven't a clue as to the history of the Neanderthals and thus, the reason I chose the cognomen.

Cheers from the Rockies

252

A Clamper,

Multicultural Embra 12/12/2007 15:44:45

#243 If it's a "numbers game" then take a look at the last census for 2001. 92% in this country are white. Read on....

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=455

253

H215,

NY NY 12/12/2007 15:44:46

Follow-up question for Louise Gray:

You are a woman who works out of the house, for pay, traveling around and talking to men. In most Islamic cultures, your behavior is unacceptable and can result in beating, jail and/or death.

Do you want these cultures to increase their power in your town? Yes or No.

Seriously.

254

jaylaw,

USA 12/12/2007 15:47:13

The reason all of Europe needs the immigrants is that the birthrate among native Europeans has declined and the population is aging.

Your cradle to grave welfare states are already on the verge of bankruptcy, so the influx of workers are needed so your governments can tax them.

The captialists are interested in getting a large pool of cheap labor.

The left is interested in undermining all aspects of European culture. European to them equals bad.

We have the same problems here in the US but not yet as bad.

An educated public resists authoritarian government.
Are the new immigrants educated?

A united public resists authoritarian government.
Is a multicultural society united?

A culture with a tradition of freedom and democratic values resists an authoritarian government.
Do the immigrants come to the Western countries from cultures that value these things?

Is blood (genetics) a basis for a nation?
The left would call you racist for even suggesting such a thing but they will not ever explain why it is wrong?

Are all cultures equal? The left will say it is wrong to ask such a question so they do not even have to try to prove you wrong?

Is cultural diversity a good thing? Read all of the post on this article and topic and then answer the question for yourselves.

255

Rob15,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 15:49:31

I was be interested to see the results of this survey if it were applied only to the Muslim Community. Given the traditional views which are held towards Gay people, Jews and Women I think the results really would be truly shocking. At least it would put into perspective the "shock horror" analysis - "it's terrible aren't we prejudiced" being overlaid on this survey.

256

NittonLover,

12/12/2007 15:49:50

#255 - Google "Rapture" and you'll find out.

You have to laugh at your bigotry, you use "muslim lover" as an insult, man, you really are ignorant.

I can't believe the Scotsman is allowing this to go on.

Just for the record.

1. Most muslims do not want to kill every one of other faiths
2. Not all UK muslims are potential terrorists.
3. Christian will not be "stoned to death" of they practice their religion in muslim countries (Iraq has a large Christian minority!)
4. The media is a lot to blame for stirring this all up, get some perspective for crying out loud.

257

Steve Campbell,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 15:52:33

Osama Saeed fails to distinguish between attitudes and actions. Her analysis is therefore of little value.

Assault on anyone is a crime. Racially aggravated assault is regarded as more serious because of its ability to destabilize our communities. Discrimination is illegal and should be dealt with appropriately.

Attitudes however are personal and are internal. It is extremely distasteful that adults in a democracy should be told what attitudes to hold. The idea that a believer, atheist, priest, social worker, government officer, politician or philosopher should define what attitudes are acceptable or unacceptable should be rejected by all who care about their own civil rights.

258

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 15:52:50

Hello Again Nitton,

RE your 250.

Your ignorance of the Noble Quran is quite obviously matched only by your ignorance of both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Regardless of whether or not a person believes what is written in a given religious text (or secular text for that matter) from a personal standpoint, is wholly irrelevant to the FACT of what IS written on the pages of texts.

In other words, you don't have to agree with or believe in a given text's wording, but you CANNOT deny that the wording exits: there it is in black and white for all and sundry to read.

Thus, when it says in both the Old Testament and the New Testament, that there is a Judgment Day, that there will be a Resurrection of all people whom have died throughout the ages, that Satan and his demons exist (also called Fallen Angels), that a human being called Messiah (Messias) will be born and be God in the Flesh, you nor I, nor anyone else are required to believe in what is written in those texts about such issues, but we MUST believe that those ARE to be found in written form in those texts.

The FACT that such specific references above is not in question, regardless of your or anyone else's disbelief in the context themselves, the words are written clearly and concisely, and that is not open for debate.

Lastly, allow me to point out, that unless I missed it, ALL of the homicide bombings have been carried out by MUSLIMS.

Not a single Christian was involved in the 9-11 attacks, the 7-7 attacks, Bali, Madrid, Algiers, Glasgow, etc.

So just where do you get any real evidence to support your outrageous statements in your post 250?

I must also point out to you that I am in fact, a Born Again Evangelical Fundamentalist Christian, and yes, I do believe in every word in the Bible came from God, unless it is noted in the texts.

Cheers from the Rockies

259

Jambo-ree,

12/12/2007 15:52:52

#196. What I have done is spent time working in Muslim countries such as Saudi, Dubai and Indonesia or alongside Muslims in secular countries such as South Africa, India and Turkey. I have never known anything other than warm hospitality from my colleagues and know that all of those I have spoken to are moderate in their views and want no truck with the deeds carried out by fanatics using Islam as a screen for their own evil doings.

I know the Muslims in South Africa were persecuted under apartheid, and this in the name of a Christian church.

There are positives and negatives in all religions and I'm sure that if fundamental Christians were to start applying the full letter of the Christian bible (particularly the Old Testament) then the rest of us more secular people would recoil with horror.

And that is my point - most Muslims are not bad and not all Christians are good by definition. You just have to stand on the terraces in Glasgow to experience the hatred between two septs of the same religion. And so it is with Islam so please do not tar the vast majority of decent Muslims with the terrorists brush otherwise the latter will have won.

I am aware the US has allowed itself to become completely terrorised, now trying to justify torture and the obsecenity that is hidden away in Cuba. Or is that justifiable because you've got your god on your side. The Quran, like the Bible can be used to justify almost anything - it all comes down to the interpretation of the reader.

Any nation which has laws allowing it to kill its own citizens in reparation for their crimes is poorly placed to pass judgement on the laws of others.

Cheers from the Cheviots

260

Redfive,

12/12/2007 15:55:02

262. NittonLover

I never called you a Muslim lover reread my post

How about backing up your statement 'There many fundamentalist christains that believe every biblical word, even revelations - who are arguably more of a threat to world survival than Islamic extremists.'


Come on lets hear it or are you talking total bollocks

261

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 15:55:59

Hello Jock,

Yeah, I know what you mean: they're getting all their info from PC mass media sources and Rad Left Social Progressive websites, and do NOT want to step outside their comfortable PC mindsets.

Sad but true. Unfortunately, that Lemming mindset will end up costing hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people their lives.

'Forewarned is forearmed' is the saying, is it not?

Studying the Noble Quran is quite forearming I must say.

Keep up the good work and....

Cheers from the Rockies

262

Boab,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 16:00:23

#216/#241 Tommy/Neanderthal: So, there you have it. Every nice Muslim you ever met has only been nice so that they can stick you with a curvy sword when your back is turned.

N, I think those Muslims you used to be friends with would be amused by your very circular logic. Kind of like: "If Muslims don't support terrorism it's because they haven't read up on the killing and maiming in the Koran".

Oi! Who reported me in #64? Spoilsports.

263

NittonLover,

12/12/2007 16:05:35

#266- As I said - google RAPTURE and you will find out. (Yes and they are American, surpise, surprise). In fact contact Neanderthal75 I'm sure he has a clue what I'm talking about. Oh, and by the way, it is thought that revelations was written by a Jewish refugee from the Romans, hiding in a greek cave with only magic mushrooms to eat.

OK, Neanderthal75, if you object to racist, Ill use the term bigot, that more to your liking?

264

Calum Crubag,

12/12/2007 16:07:44

Stop all faith schools - Christian or otherwise. All of these backward superstitions are a cancer on our society.

265

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 16:08:08

Hello Jambo,

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not doubting your personal experiences. What I'm questioning is the obvious fact that you're totally negating what is written in the pages of the Noble Quran, refusing to accept the myriad polls of everyday, average, 'good and faithful' Muslims both in Great Britain and across the globe on the issues we're all discussing, and turning a blind eye about specifics, in favor of generalities based upon the briefest knowledge of religious texts for Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

You obviously do NOT understand either the Old Covenant nor the New Covenant, relating to what is written in the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Further, you are not versed enough in either biblical text, to understand and compare biblical doctrines with quranic doctrines.

I am not at such a loss however, which is why I keep attempting to get people to actually READ and STUDY both the Bible and the Noble Quran, should they really want to know and understand the differences.

For instance, while Christians are commanded to share the Gospel of Christ with all people across the globe, Muslims are commanded to spread the Islam across the globe first voluntarily (as in the case with Christianity), but if people will not convert voluntarily, Muslims are commanded to kill people until those surviving finally decide to convert.

Nowhere in the Old Testament will you find a single passage where the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, EVER commanded the Jews to take up their swords and spears, and force people to convert to Judaism; such a citation is simply not there to be found.

Yes, God commanded the Jews to kill the pagans and take their lands, but were the pagans to have fled, the Jews would have left them alone: such is NOT the case in Islam-global domination via force is the goal within Islam.

If you really want to understand why Muslims answer the questions in those polls as they have done, then start st

266

Mirrorman,

Vermont...(moonlight on) 12/12/2007 16:13:46

A Turkish muslim lawyer has raised a complaint in Turkey against the Inter Milan football team for wearing a strip with a red cross on a white background in a Champions League match in Turkey.
According to the 'lawyer' this 'deliberate act symbolises Western racist supremacy over Islam.' He is seeking damages 'for the profound grief in his soul' caused whilst watching the game and is asking UEFA for the result (Inter won 3-0) to be annulled.

He also cites the cross as being a symbol of the Knights Templar... what would he have liked them to have worn...burkhas? Personally I think they should have had T-shirts with 'I've been to Turkey on holiday and all I got was this lousy T-shirt and food poisoning.'

.. no truth in the rumour that he signs himself I.M.Becile.

267

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 16:16:01

Hello Calum,

RE your 271:

ALL Western modern civilized society, law, and culture, originate within the Christian Religion, and the Christian Religion has its foundations in Judaism.

Regardless of whether you like it or not, ALL Western nations have as the basis of their laws and cultures, Christian religious foundations.

By the by, we've seen what fully functioning atheist nations can get done!

Just take a look at the body count from the USSR: at the time of Stalin's death, Sovietologist Conquest had estimated (and was later confirmed after the KGB archives were opened to Western scholars) that 47-52 MILLION men, women, and children, had been systematically murdered by the Atheist Russian State.

Sinologists have estimated that between 63-100 MILLION men, women, and children, were murdered, by the time that Maozhedong (Mao Tse Dung) finally kicked the bucket.

Ah yes, the USSR and the PRC (People's Republic of China), two fine Atheist States, which 'prove' that people of faith from Judaism and Christianity are 'dangerous'.

Cheers from the Rockies

268

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 16:16:08

#250 Nitton Lover

I read the entire new testament just last year. From Cover to Cover. I missed out the Psalms though.
I found it pleasant in a backward, hippy kind of way. Full of contridictions and missing much of what is today considered Christianity.

I have not read the old testament for a good few years.

I suggest anyone reads Sam Harris "End of Faith" an excellent book.

269

Jambo-ree,

12/12/2007 16:22:22

#272 - Which truth is that - the Christian truth or the Islamic version? You've obviously made your choice accepeting both that there is a god and that the scriptures you prefer are indeed the word of that god. So live the life and turn the other cheek as commanded.

By what biblical right did the Crusades take place and by what right did (read do) Christian missionaries try to convert people to their view of the world? Both religions are at the same game.

Yes, 9/11 was an obscenity but compare the 6,000 killed there with 25,000 children who die each day from poverty, famine or preventable disease while the US population super-sizes itself and the real obscenity reveals itself. And that is food indeed for those who would use these populations for their own misdeeds. Spend more on feeding and caring for the unfortunates of the world and less on military excursions and then see the progress on the (so-called) war on terror.

Incidentally as someone brought up as a Scottish Presbyterian I'll stick to "Testaments" if you don't mind.

270

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 16:24:47

Hello again Nitton,

RE your 270.

I objected because you were FACTUALLY incorrect.

I know those pesky FACTS keep getting in the way of your sheer emotionalism, but hey, that's the way empirical research works: its based on facts, not emotional opinion.

Bigoted would mean that I am against Islam and Muslims without rational foundations, without a factual basis in reality.

I have cited numerous and specific reasons for my positions, and you, unfortunately for your arugments and point of view, have NOT been able to address a single one of them.

Why is that Nitton?

Referring to your emotional problems with what is written in the Bible, I'll reiterate for your elucidation:

You don't have to believe in the Rapture to believe that the event referred to as the Rapture is actually to be found in the Bible. The event is there for all to read, contemplate, and discuss, Nitton, all you or anyone else has to do, is to be honest enough to think about it and discuss it with an open mind; and open mind doesn't mean that at the end of the day you have to believe it or any other doctrine in the Bible, an open mind mere connotes just that; you're open to a point of view different than what you current believe.

You PC Crowd folks use similar terms, ie, 'tolerance of others', 'diversity of opinon,' etc.

Unless of course, you merely desire to be bigoted against Christians and Jews.

Are you?

Cheers from the Rockies

271

Paul Carline,

Scotland 12/12/2007 16:25:02

Still no takers for my £100 'no-brainer' 9/11 Truth Challenge?

I'm disappointed (but not surprised).

It's what always happens when you ask for facts - the big-mouths suddenly clam up, or change the subject.

The 'war on terror' is a scam.
The 'war on terror' is a scam.
9/11 and 7/7 were inside jobs.

Prove me wrong - please!

272

Houssine,

Now in Paris.Fr 12/12/2007 16:25:05

I will speak whit you honestly who are behind the manipulation of islam for his profit?
Most celtics nation was colonised and international propaganda focalised him self only in islam and devloping a racist theory.
What happened yesterday in Algeria and what happened today in Lbanon it's for politic reason islam was inocent about the human action.Today General Michel al-Haj was killed in Libanon also you will acuse the islam?
I believe the teaching in westerns universities was responsable of this ignorance amongst poeples when you have ignirant teatcher who teach only the hating and was not avaiable for teaching you have ignorant kind in societies.Answer me if we can acuse Christianity of Hitler politic?
What islam?Islam is a religion reveled by the angel to the prophet Muhamed for not only arabs but for humanity.What is the teaching of this religion?We are all from Adam and Eva and Eva was from Adam and Adam was from earth and earth was created by the God Allah.This is the celestial message.But the western politicien have manipuled the westerns opinion for creating confusion.G.Bush afther 9/11 have visited a Mosk in New-York also T.Blair,this is a politisation of the religion.Your affirmation about the killing of infidel also was a tentative of hating.Across the world two billion muslim pry the God Allah evry day whitout violence and most of them was a good citizen who respect the law.You speak about integration,most of muslim was integred,most of them speak fluently english ,french,...and all muslim respect the law of the country.What happened in Lpndon bombing,in Madrid,in Algiers yesterday was linked whit international politic war the domination of the world,oil...
It's necessary to understand islam as christianity was two semitic religion.But you are a blind for the reality,in Algeria the poverty is very great,more 70% of young poeple was whitout job ,Algeria produce more one million baril oill per day.It's difficult to me to unders

273

Boab,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 16:28:15

#281 Houssine: British Univerisities are usually Liberal so they would not teach that Islam is evil.

Tell us straight: Do Muslims believe in killing all non-Muslims?

274

Boab,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 16:30:54

#278 Neand: 'The Koran incites people to violence' is a fact, but so is 'The Koran incites people to peace and understanding'. So much for your empirical method.

Hope you've got your justification ready for #282.

275

Pinelands,

PINELANDS. Where the heart is 12/12/2007 16:33:32

#224 STARGAZER

Well why are you still ranting on then

You the know it all

You the everyones wrong except me

You the oh never mind others, mine is the only opinion thats correct

Either get off or stay on

276

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 16:40:57

Hello again Jambo,

You've missed it again my good man.

My personal belief is totally irrelevant to the issues under discussion.

Either something is written in a text or it is not written.

Contextually speaking, either a doctrine exists in written form, or it does not: my personal belief has ZERO IMPACT on the factual existence of any given written doctrine (again, secular or religious).

The FACT is that an honest comparative between the doctrines of Islam and the doctrines of Christianity (or Judaism for that matter with Islam) give us a clear picture of each religion, completely WITHOUT any 'end user' interpretations.

Thus, the oft trotted out Muslim and supporters of Muslims charge of "What about the actions of the Crusaders?" to act as a comparative with current Islamic terrorists, is a complete misnomer and a red herring in the extreme.

Nowhere in the New Testament could ANY Crusader find a bonafide Christian biblical doctrine to use force against Muslims in retaking the Holy Land and killing Muslims. Nowhere.

The Noble Quran on the other hand, as I have explained in other posts above, DOES give the right, in fact commands, the 'good and faithful Muslim' to 'take the sword' and spread Islam across the globe (hence the original Jihad, which forced Islam on a multitude of peoples across the ME and North Africa, as well as into the Balkans and Eastward to Mongolia).

Christianity, pre-Romanization, spread peacefully and by word of mouth, NOT by the Edge of the Sword.

Lastly, it was 3000 killed in the Twin Towers and the USA gives away more free food than Great Britain can produce (I know I exaggerate just a bit here, but the differences in production and the ability to give away that food is exponential; the USA has 5 time zones).

I must also point out that just where is it commanded that the USA is required to feed all the poor of the Earth?

More to the point, not a single child in

277

dingwallman,

England 12/12/2007 16:46:36

To suggest that Muslims in the UK are engaged in a seditious act of seeking to dominate the UK is utter nonsense. Most of us unfortunately have had our minds infected by the malicious media machine that seeks to manipulate public opinion to suit the dark and sinister agendas of their proprietors.

Meet ordinary Muslims and you will mostly find decent, hard working and hospitable people. True, there are the bad-eggs as well but this is no different to any other ethnic group. No one is seeking to impose Sharia Law in this country – Muslims have enough of a struggle adopting Sharia Law on themselves. And no one is seeking to eliminate the traditions / Christian heritage of this country - Muslims have enough on their plate without worrying about Christmas decorations and nativity plays. As far as the decline of Christianity in the UK is concerned, I think the fault here lies with Christianity and not Islam.

278

Boab,

Glasgow 12/12/2007 16:48:47

#286 Neand:

'Nowhere in the New Testament could ANY Crusader find a bonafide Christian biblical doctrine to use force against Muslims in retaking the Holy Land and killing Muslims. Nowhere.'

Apart from Jesus saying 'I come not to bring peace but a sword'. Book of Matthew, I think?

279

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 16:49:13

Hello Joe and Paul,

Paul: You've done the usual conspiracist thing and totally sidestepped answering any of the specific points I made; by making an assinine offering with nor arbiter, nor any arbiter which you would accept.

How about the Popular Mechanics Research Report on what you believe?
Go here and read the report:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1...

Then of course, we have the University of Purdue which also conducted a study on the 9-11 attack, which concluded that you conspiracy folks are several bricks short of a full load:

http://www.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/2006/060911.Sozen.WTC...

Now, how about you send that 100 pounds Fed Ex, eh?

Cheers from the Rockies.

280

Houssine,

Now in Paris.Fr 12/12/2007 16:49:39
281

Redfive,

12/12/2007 16:50:22

281. Houssine

Sorry I disagree with almost your entire post

Most arabs stat was laik or socialist. - I think you mean most arab states are Dictatorships this is a global point.

UK universities do not teach anyone to hate another religion.

You go on about Algeria poverty is this because of the christian invaders or the Imams and Warlords ?

You said: Across the world two billion muslim pry the God Allah evry day whitout violence

You must be ferking joking !!!!! It was you that mentioned the recent bombings in two countries common denomanater hmm what is it now ?

What you and many of the leftist Politicaly Correct posters fail to recognise is that I like many other where brought up respecting people of all nations, but times are changing this goodwill has been abused by the minority and the majority are starting to see the great multicultural UK is nothing more than a lie by the political class. I like many others here I treat people as I find them and are not blind to see that many Muslems in the UK are Anti-UK ant- western and against our religion and decadent way of life.

282

tommy,

belfast uk 12/12/2007 16:51:26

260
Are all cultures equal? -- The unequivocal answer is NO--
Can anyone seriously believe that a Christian culture that calls on us to love our neighbour is the equal of one that is based on islamic sharia that requires all nonbelievers be killed with the exception of the people of the book (jews and christians) who may be killed or if they are agreeable subjected to dhimmi status and pay the jizya

jambo ree
Once again misinformation about violence in the bible and koran
Violence in the bible is descriptive
Violence in the koran is prescriptive

Boab-- I think its time you started to read the koran
002.216
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

so you see the individual muslims feelings don't come into it

unless I have missed the call from within islam for a reformation--but then that would make the caller an apostate and the one thing sunni and shia agree on is death to the apostate

283

Houssine,

Now in Paris.Fr 12/12/2007 16:56:16

Islam was coming in the 7 th century,they are tree semitic religion one the ancient testament,two the new testament,then the new new testament it's Islam.
When i speak about university i'm surprised our your reflexion was a sexuel relexion as the Prophet take as wiffe a girl under 10 years or dhimmi or killing the infidel.I believe it's important to distinct between what it's a politic affairs.
What need Scotland,it's independance,nothing more.
needjar@yahoo.fr

284

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 17:00:25

Hello Boab,

RE your 288.

I see, you are doing what most folks who have only the vaguest cursory knowledge of Scripture do: picking out single verses, without context, and they twisting them to your liking.

Christ was referring to His Divine Ability to Judge all the people of the world, as well as to Judge and Defeat Satan.

Contextually speaking, Christ referred to His first appearance on Earth as His being a 'servant', the Lamb which takes away the sins of mankind (for those whom take Him as Lord and Saviour, as is evidenced in John 14:6), and to bring 'the Good News of Salvation' to all those whom are willing to listen and accept.

The sword is also a symbol of division: Christ promised that He would divide families, 'setting mother against daughter and father against son....' The reason? Choosing Christ as Lord and Saviour, or choosing something/one else in His place.

Christ also referenced quite clearly, what His Role would be, the second time He came to Earth: He would come back as the King of Kings, the Judge of the World, using the 'two edged sword of His mouth'.

When He Returns, He'll be coming as a devastating Avenger and to put to an end all evil, sin, and rebellion.

This time around, He'll not be any kind of servant, He'll be what He is Lord of Lords, God in the Flesh.
Again, you don't have to believe that (though I would hope you will at some point) personally, but factually speaking, all of those doctrines are contextually to be found within the OT and the NT.

Again personal belief is irrelevant pertaining to the FACT that such doctrines ARE to be found within the pages of the Bible.

Cheers from the Rockies

285

Geoff,

South Africa 12/12/2007 17:03:58

90 Black and White Triumph-good post.

I feel no particular predjudice against any group of people and count Muslims,Jews,Black and white, gay and straight amongst my friends and business partners but the simple indisputable truth is that Islam has arrived in Britain and created,with some other communities,ethnic ghettoes whereas other waves of immigration to the British Isles have changed yes,but assimilated into, the 'native 'population.
I make no judgement either way as to whether this is a good or bad thing but the brutal reality is that with a far higher birth rate, unless something radical is done, the broad British(Scottish if u will) culture will be replaced by something that most Britons(britons if u will) would regard as totally alien.
What to do? You tell me.

286

Houssine,

Now in Paris.Fr 12/12/2007 17:06:02

Redfive,sorry but i'm not a leftist.I'm ethnologyst and linguist,specialised in celtics mind and cultur.All poeples know my position for an independant Scotland this is not a secret for any one.What i say politic is politic and religion is religion,if you think more muslim in Scotland hate western civilisation i desagree whit you,most muslim respect westerns civilisation.You can't speak about minority for the majority.The generalisation is a bad behaviour.
I'm not from the right or from the left,i'm a scientific,i agree my english is bad .Redfive did you admit G.Bush have build his politic of agression against Irak on mensonge??
Remember your self how general Colin Powel whitout rspect for international community he have presented a photo satelit to proof the existence of nuclear weapons for the justification of attak against Irak,why they are not commision of enquet in this case?
needjar@yahoo.fr

287

Geoff,

South Africa 12/12/2007 17:15:47

297-your English is a hell of a lot better than most of our French or Arabic! I am intrigued as to why you support Scottish Independence though?

288

Geoff,

South Africa 12/12/2007 17:16:19

300?

289

Geoff,

South Africa 12/12/2007 17:16:59

300!!

290

Alexander the Scot,

Michigan U.S.A. 12/12/2007 17:21:40

272-Neanderthal.


At the time of Abraham there were no Jews. It is a common annoying fault I find with many who claim to know the Holy Scriptures. Even at the time of Moses there was no Jewish Nation, was the Tribe of Judah not simply one among the Tribes of Israel? Is it also not a fact that the first time the Jews are mentioned in the Bible, they were at war with Israel?
The people of Israel were taken into captivity and scattered six hundred years before the same thing happened to the Jews by the Romans.
That sandpit called Israel today is anything but.. the real Israel was to the North.
But now to Islam, look at it, don't you think that anyone with even a hint of intelligence would have to agree that it was created for the criminally insane?
Another thing I noticed, many posting here are using "xmas" instead of Christmas, have they become so afraid of using the name of Christ for fear that they offend what is truly offensive?
Christ said, "If you deny me before men, I will deny you before my Father."

My lunch time is over, so it's back to work.

291

Urban Guerrilla,

12/12/2007 17:22:22

I used to think that all religions were much of a muchness, with the same mixture of good and bad. But now I'm sick to death of Islam and everything to do with it.

292

,

12/12/2007 17:28:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1225665, Article id was mapped to record!
293

Tourist Guide,

12/12/2007 17:35:16

PS

For all the "CHRISTIANS" a simple question:

GOD IS LOVE - yes or no?

Christ said: "Love your enemies" - yes or no?

294

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 17:35:19

Alexander,

The last part of your post was great, and for the most part, I agree with the first half of your post.

One thing you need to consider; after having read most of the posters on this thread, do you really believe THEY would have understood the dichotomy?

Hence, using the generic term 'Jews' just saves a LOT of unnecessary explanation and time, for people that couldn't care less about the fine points of anthropology.

More's the pity, but hey, most of them won't take the time to even read one of the books within the Bible, much less start comparing doctrines.

Cheers from the Rockies.

295

chics311,

U.S.A. 12/12/2007 17:39:09

The 50% figure is shocking,lets try really really hard to get the number up.I think 95% would be a much more realistic number. The p.c. crowd and cowardly politicians will not listen to 50%,you need to up the ante to get your country back from the encroaching islamic fascists and you do not have a lot of time.

296

inoui,

Bordeaux 12/12/2007 17:40:03

Having no religious leanings what so ever this is all mere words. But one thing is for sure where ever they are through out this world there always seems to be trouble, so little wonder a certain view of the Muslim world exists.

297

Houssine,

France 12/12/2007 17:41:48

As the world specialist in cetic ethnology and linguistic,i think a good part of alienation Scottich poeples come the fact Scotland whas not independant hence she can't shoose the beter politic whisg correspont of his interest as immigration...
More i believe as the mind in the brain need to fonctionne in harmony whit the body.Than a Scottich poeples need to teach and know Gaelic .Gaelic will protect him against the new nazie propaganta of the hating against muslims and islam.Many amongst you was endoctrined by what we name the international conformism.All my teaching was the respect of the race and identities.I believe for a better world we need to respect human dignity in his cultur and ancestry.Kosovo was a muslim stat and was different of Serbian stat why we don't accept his independance??The problem today most nation think the stat was an eternity entity whit border...i believe one day whit the devlopment of modern societies of travel the border will be not necessarly and the free deplacement of the man was a gage of liberty.
needjar@yahoo.fr

298

Geoff,

South Africa 12/12/2007 17:42:47

305 Tourist Guide-yes indeed Christ said"Love your enemies" but that is not the question you should be posing. What we should ask is what Mohammed said of Infidels and how Muslims should treat Christians. We in the West are often victims-indeed captives of a liberal democratic society whose values are not reciprocated by others. It doesnt really help us if we are doing all the loving whilst "les autres" regard us as non people!

299

Odin,

Scotland 12/12/2007 17:43:59

#258

Those stats you refer to reflect false figures put out by the government for propaganda purposes and to further its genocidal intentions.

See today's papers for the real situation stats wise.

If you read my post @243 you would have seen this direction to any readers.

Gullibility is what the government has always counted on

300

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 17:47:08

#280 Paul.

Your argument is similar to that of a religious person saying prove god does not exist.

If something does not exist it cannot be disproved.

Yes there are people who want the war to happen and there are people who will profit. They are manipulating the situation or pouring fuel on the fire. But the fire was already burning as it has for over 1000 years.

This is not difficult to see how Islam behaves. We have a global news service online from all over the world.

My point is not about oil or wealth it is about how we treat our women and daughter.

There are many conspiracy theories I believe have much truth but the Islamic plague I can see all over the globe.

See with your eyes how they treat their people and neighbours

301

Houssine,

France 12/12/2007 17:50:59

They are a misunderstanding,muslims as other religion have his custums and habitud whish are not in opposition whit western nation.Muslim respect westerns law but about what integration you speak?For me the integration is when poeples respect the law and the other poeples.In our societies we are different,they are arab,jews,celt,gaelic,pakistani,hindouist...socialist...whit different croyance as druidic,celtic,jews,muslims,christian;..atheist..where is the problem ?why you focalise your self only in Islam???
Islam is the religion of tolerance,of the respect of other for this reason he have ennemy across the world.The attak against westerner in Bali,in Algiers,in Casablanca by his natur is not different of what we can name political behaviour for the power as we have the massacr between the Hutu and tutsi,the Irish north war,the ww1 and 2...
The humans nature as animal nature believe the live is a permanent combat.

303

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 17:56:08

Hello TG,

RE your 305:

He certainly did!
He also said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, NO ONE (my emphasis) goeth to the Father EXCEPT (my emphasis) through Me." (John 14:6)

He also reminded us that the Father, the 'God of Love' is the SAME God who exterminated ALL but a handful of humans via the Flood, and promised that the world would get so sinful again, that the next time He destroyed the world, He would do it via Fire.

He's also the same God Who promised to chastise an unbelieving world by killing some half to 3/4 of the entire world's population, just prior to the Return of Christ.

Christ's words stipulate we are to indeed love our enemies, He didn't say word one about not protecting ourselves and our families from the very same enemies we are commanded to love.

We can see He understood all too well (and why not, He IS God!) the role of soldiers in society. When two soldiers asked Him how they should behave themselves (in the context of being Believers and faithful to God), He told them to be honest, and to do their duty (again, within the context of both human and divine law).

I take it that you are one of those folks whom love to tout the God is Love part of Scripture, but do NOT like to also tout the Eternal Damnation citations from Christ as well?

God loves ALL His children. His Righteousness and Holiness will NOT contradict His Love, when He condemns all unrepentent sinners to the Lake of Fire (after those whom have already died, are pulled out of Hell for Judgment).

Everybody likes that God is love citation, but boy do they ever do their best to avoid the God is Judge citations!

Oh yes, I do happen to love Scotland, am interested in Scottish history (having studied it some in both my undergrad and grad years), and really like most of the Scots I've met.

Like I said before, I start with the premise that the people with whom I am speaking are NOT liars and go from

304

Tourist Guide,

12/12/2007 18:00:08

#310

Interesting, Geoff. I don't remember anywhere in the Bible Christ specifically saying: "Love your enemies, but that is not the question I should be posing".

Dare I suggest that is the convenient "get-out" spin you are proposing?

#316 Is George Carlin another name for God, or Jesus?

305

Supe,

12/12/2007 18:10:15

#315 Joe13 - Stop sniffing turpentine before it's too late.

I would feel a lot better about the Islamic world if it seemed to have just a little more "common sense" coming from their religious leaders, as well as some fervent condemnation of terrorist attacks by the Islamic population en masse.

I have no problem with anyone who doesn't want to make me wear a burqa or cut off my head. (Or try to stop our schools from teaching history for fear of causing offense.)

306

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 18:12:09

Hello TG and Joe,

Here's one for you:

At His Appearing "..every knee shall bend and every head shall bow and every tongue shall confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord."

Start your warm ups anytime soon guys.

Cheers and good morning, from the Rockies.

307

tyson,

Annapolis in the "Free State" 12/12/2007 18:15:29

Two words that when used in combination give me goosebumps: religious police.
/What percentage of Scottish muslims would support the establishment of sharia?
//"Muslim" is not a race, it is a religion that welcomes people of all ethnic backgrounds.
///The Saudis seem to feel that Arabs are superior to muslims of other races.

308

H215,

NY NY 12/12/2007 18:16:07

I'm still waiting to hear why the Scotsman newspaper is pushing the "islamophobia = racism" line. Has anyone emailed the reporter or the editor to complain about this policy?

Yes, its good to discuss all this amongst ourselves, but don't forget the millions of people (thousands?) who just read the first couple paragraphs.

309

Tourist Guide,

12/12/2007 18:17:36

#318

Please don't lecture me about "Eternal Damnation", Neanderthal. I was born and brought up in a Calvinist country where that tripe has been our staple diet since the Reformation. I also know the fairy tale according to which a certain Chosen Elect will avoid all that, as dealt with in James Hogg's "Confessions of a Justified Sinner".

What fairy tale you decide to terrify yourself with is up to you, and it IS interesting that certain mainstream Christian beliefs have started to downplay this Medieval mind-control, but PLEASE stop taking your obsessions and paranoia out on the rest of us.

I also resent your un-Christian and totally false assertion that I believe certain people are LIARS, simply because they are misguided.

But what do you expect of an obsessed bogeyman-ridden paranoiac?

Cheers from Scotland.

310

scots_in_spirit,

Nebraska USA 12/12/2007 18:23:43

Protect your heritage, Scotland!!! If you're not vigilant with your immigration (legal or illegal) you'll be the minority in your own country. It's happening all too fast here; some of our communities are more than 50% immigrants (many illegal). We're spending billions of dollars on our illegal immigrants, making sure they have housing, food, clothes, health insurance, etc. Many make more in government handouts than I do working as a fulltime professional.
I was fortunate to travel in Scotland 3 years ago and enjoyed the entire experience. You have a rich, rich heritage. Fight with everything you have to preserve it and protect it! I am a Scotsman in spirit!

311

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 18:26:49

#319 Joe.

I never ever said all muslims are terrorists. Although is someone blows himself up on a Bus, plane or Train I would be willing to bet on the religion that person practices.

Your logic is flawed.

My posts are quiet long so you are welcome to go back and see what I do think without applying false logic.

My problem is with Islam as a political system of government. My problem is with Bombing ionnocent people. My problem is with mis treatment of women and children ordered under the law, my problem is with female mulilation, my problem is with ISLAM.

Please I urge all people to read the Qu'ran and Hidith and Suras. Then make up your own minds.

I am sure there were some nice Nazi Party members but National Socialism was a bad thing. It even had some nice rhetoric. But the mudered millions and then went home and were good fathers.

The system is the problem not the component parts

312

RsS,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 18:28:18

Same report in the Sun today. Reporter described Scotland as a nation "reeling" as a result of this survey. And talked of Scotland's "shame". What world do these people live in.

I would struggle to find anyone I know from all walks of life who was left reeling or felt shame. This continual bombardment where people are told how they should think by a "educated minority" is causing more damage than good. People feel how they feel.

Society in this country is broken beyond repair, and it all started in the mid eighties when this constant, "this is how you should think" bombardment started.

313

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 12/12/2007 18:37:59

#333 RsS

Login to one of the sun discussion boards. Now there is no shame being expressed there.

I feel like an appeaser when I read who the Sun reader think about immigration.

Its all just too much too quickly and it will all end in tears and bloodshed.

If you complain you are a racist. If you do not complain you are a good citizen.

314

ConcernedParent,

12/12/2007 18:38:31

And we're supposed to feel bad for holding discriminatory attitudes towards Muslims? I dont care.

I despise all religion, but particularly Islam..in all its "forms".

315

Ailsa B,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 18:42:21

So what % of Muslims do you bunch of ignorant racists here think have actually harmed/killed someone in the name of Islam?
A far larger % of good old wholesome westerners will have harmed/killed someone through drink, drugs etc!
Of course it's terrible family murders being comitted, but what about all the murders, rapes, domestic violence, child abuse, gang fights etc that happen over and over again, every day here? Does it matter why a poor girl was killed? What is the relevance of her families religion? Is it more shocking that someone was attacked because they were seen to be shaming the family, or a child being killed because of the perverse nature of a sex obsessed western culture?
Yet, you all seem to be completely freaked out and scared witless, doesn't make any sense.
I guess it's just the usual lack of education and insight.

316

jaylaw,

USA 12/12/2007 18:43:36

Shortly after the Russian revolution in 1917, Western Marxist intellectuals traveled to the Soviet Union. What they found was not a worker's paradise.

They were amazed to find that the peasants and the workers were following the Communist Manifesto at the point of a gun and threat of the Gulag.

The decieded that the problem was not with Communism but with the peasants and workers.

They returned to the West and formulated what became known as the Frankfurt School of Marxism.

It stated aim was to have a cultural revolution first to get the people used to socialism before the political revolution.

Since then the goal has been to destabilize all of the Western Nations culturally.

1. Undermine Religion
2. Undermine the Family
3. Undermine the history and heroes of the Nation.
4. Undermine ethnic identity.

These intellectuals today control the universities and many government posts and the media. They effectivley control the culture.

In Britain they have been so successful at undermining all aspects of traditional culture that native British have no will to fight against the cultural invasions of thier homelands.

317

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 18:43:48

Hey there TG,

You may have been brought up in a Calvinist country (which would that be again?), but you obviously know very little about biblical doctrine or biblical history.

The doctrine of eternal damnation didn't start in the Middle Ages (Mittelalter), it was eunciated, in written form, between 60AD-130AD, as cited by noted Gnostic expert, professor Elaine Pagels (a definite non-Believer in Orthodox Christianity) and hundreds of other biblical scholars (many of whom are NOT Christians).

I must remind you though, that Hell is the first stop, doctrinally speaking, for unrepentent souls, and on the Day of Judgment, an angel will throw all those souls and the rest of the Damned, into the Lake of Fire.

Again, this is not some Middle Ages doctrine, one can read it from the very first copies, 1st century AD.

Same goes for the Exclusivity of Salvation: Christ is the only Way. Neither Buddha, nor Mohammad, nor Zoroaster, Amerterasuomikami will get it done.

I must also point out TG, that you misrepresent what I said, just as well as you do avoiding answering ANY specifics of the counter-arguments posed to you, nothing new for a Dogmatist such as yourself.

Here's what I actually said:

"You apparently, either believe otherwise, or you simply believe that anyone with interest in any country should know all the political and economic particulars, there not being any learning curve at all, and interests must not be limited."

I said nothing about people being 'misguided' nor did you: you simply implied that both Scotsmen and Englishmen, on the same subject and 500 miles apart, had purposefully lied to me, or were so ignorant of their own educational systems, that they didn't know how they worked.

TG, it's sad to say, but I'm not the one living in fear of Hellfire or the Lake of Fire, nor of Fallen angels, that seems to be you, considering your prose.

I don't have to fear Hell and Damnation, nor bein

318

Drek,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 18:50:22

A few facts relating to immigration
#1 Immigration is failing in Scotland
#2 Immigrants themselves are to blame for this
#3 Immigrants commit more crime per head of population than the indigenous people of this country
#4 Muslims have brought a major terrorist threat to Scotland
#5 Muslims are constantly connected with fraud, driving without a driving licence, insurance, tax etc; plus bogus insurance claims, not paying taxes whenever they can get away with it. And some of them want Sharia Law in this country and for the UK to become a Muslim country.
#5 Africans here are constantly connected with gun crime, robberies, muggings, sexual crimes etc
#6 Every time something does not go the way of an Asian or African in this country, they blame racism.
#7 Police forces have to pay out a fortune for interpreters to come and speak to persons of Eastern European origin who are committing crimes here. These persons pretend that they cannot speak English, when they can speak the language clearly. This keeps police off of the streets for longer and costs the tax payer a fortune.

People who don't see these things live in la la land. Get real people!

We are constantly being fed this p1sh about immigration being good for the economy. OK, so some low-paid jobs have been filled. Fantastic. But what about the new massive expense of fighting terrorism in this country, due to the presence of these people?

Ask the old people who fought in wars for Britain, who sacrificed life and limb for the people of this country. Ask them if they made that sacrifice to see people who have contributed nothing to this country coming here and reaping the benefits of their sacrifice. I doubt that many of them would say that they are happy to see the rewards of their efforts. Britain should be following Australia's example of "if you don't meet the required standard you aren't getting in", and "we respect you have the right to you

319

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 19:00:40

Hello Ailsa B,

RE your 337:

My dear you are truly misguided when you state that those of us who are anti-Islamic/anti-Muslim are racists:

Muslim is NOT a race, it denotes a member of the religion of Islam.

Muslims can be white, black, brown, Chinese, Indian, etc., so 'Muslim' is NOT a race at all.

Thus, it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone who happens to have looked at the evidence at hand and decided that Islam and the Noble Quran, are indeed INTOLERANT of non-Muslims, call for the murders of non-Muslims, and believe that the Honor Murders of women and children are utterly barbaric, to be racist.

Nor can we be considered bigoted either: our beliefs are based on facts, empirical evidence, and logic.

The problem with your whole outlook is that your entire mindset is based in Political Correctness. Stop accepting the mindlessness of PC and start looking at facts:

Honor murders, Quranic doctrine which stipulates that all non-Muslims MUST convert to Islam, otherwise they will be killed, women who are raped MUST have at least 4 witnesses to their rape, otherwise they will be charged, tried, and convicted, of fornication or adultery, and sentenced to being severely whipped and THEN to spend years in prison, OR if the woman is 'difficult' and 'unrepentent' of her sins, she will be executed.

THIS is what you are defending!
Take a look at the teenage girl who was BEATEN TO DEATH in Canada by her Father, and after being murdered by him, her Brother tried to interfere with the police about the murder.

Honor beatings and murder occur in the thousands each and every month; just do a Google of Honor Killings and start reading; you'll not continue to hold your current political viewpoint for too long after you do the research.

Cheers from the Rockies

320

RsS,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 19:03:37

#341
Stop telling it how it is you racist.

321

Ailsa B,

Edinburgh 12/12/2007 19:10:29

#343
No 1: I am not your dear
No 2: How dare you assume that I know less about Islam than you do!
Have you read the Quran, in its original form not in an English translation? Have you read it from cover to cover? I will of course be humbled if you have, but I doubt it!
Never at one point in my post did I defend the actions of those extremists, who in the majority of muslim eyes are purely evil, and nothing to do with the real Islam of today. (Yes, even Islam can evolve and change, just like all the other religions in the world!)
I was merely trying to bring some common sense into the fanatical ravings going on here.
The facts are that EVERY DAY here, women are harassed, abused, beaten, on many occasions due to alcohol - but hey, that's ok, cos is always been a part of good old Scottish culture.
You people need to stop demonising a culture, a faith that the majority of you know NOTHING about (yes, we can all google and think we suddenly have a degree in everything) and take a long hard look at the culture of Scotland, the west, the UK that you all hold in such high regard.

322

ford escort,

Dhimmi land 12/12/2007 19:20:32

#71 ...According to MI5 less than 1% of UK Muslims are involved in terrorism in any way. While the vast majority of Muslims are law abiding citizens they deserve the same rights...

Crivens Boab that would be about 50,000 islamic terrorists running around this country - no wonder people are concerned.

Did you know 36% of muslims recently polled in this country thought apostates should be killed.
“One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.”
— Former Algerian President Houari Boumedienne’s prophetic warning to Europe in a speech at the U.N. In 1974. Thirty three years later, his prediction is in the process of unfolding.
It can't go on for much longer, this farce of willfully ignoring what Islam is all about, and what the apostates from Islam tell us, so eloquently, it is about.
Still, one might argue that Muslims will moderate over time, as they become educated, just as Christians progressed from a medieval to a modern mentality with the growth of European society and the education that came with wealth. Well, I hope so, but it won't happen if we don't talk about it honestly. At the moment, most of the Muslim world is in pretty poor shape, psychologically as much as economically. The kind of Western PC 'tolerance' that whitewashes the faults of the 'oppressed' is counter-productive in the long run, as it pulls the rug out from under the few brave reformers who are trying to move forward. This nauseating PC, which has pervaded our elites, is really a kind of effete narcissism: People leading protected lives like to feel good about themselves by saying nice but untrue things about others. The hope is that this gratuitous caressing of erogenous zones will mollify the adversary, but this doesn't work with barbarians. On th

323

Jan Brooks,

South Wales 12/12/2007 19:29:04

I find it extraordinary how Scots are recently failing to analyse the odds properly.
First your football manager throws away a top of Euro 2008 qualifying group chance, that was against the odds.
Now half of Scots claim that Muslims are a threat to them.
In fact the Muslim threat has been virtually neglible to this country. Britain has waged war against many Muslim nations in recent times, yet none have retalliated.
Scots, same as anyone else in the world, have a far greater chance of being in an accident or dying as a sacrifice for an unpunished crime of the voodoo armed, twice dead. Yet, in deceit, you hush that truth up - as a nation.

324

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/12/2007 19:32:59

Hello again Ailsa B,

My, my, my, but don't you just have a chip on your shoulder the size of a Sequoia?
Read it in the original? Nope, don't need to either: CONTEXT is the key to understanding any text in another language (or any language for that matter).
I have studied it for 6 years, with three different copies from different publishers, I've been diligent about reading the speeches and comments of Muslim clerics, watched Al Jezeera, and paid attention to current events (you know, like the POLLS of Brit Muslims, 48% of whom want to REPLACE the Secular Rule of Law with Sharia Law).

So while you can make the vain attempt to change the subject, minimize the numbers (which is impossible given the evidence) of Muslims who participate in Honor beatings and murders, the FACTS will out you!

Further, your futile attempt to compare domestic violence in Scotland (GB) is truly lackluster.

How can you ethically or morally attempt to equate the strong governmental attempts to curb DV in Scotland (GB), with the flick of the wrist that Islamic Governments use in dealing with Honor Beatings and Murders?

How in the world can you even make yourself type such words, considering the mutilation of girls/young women's genitalia, with DV in Scotland?

How can you even remotely compare how Islamic governments view and deal with the crime of Rape, with how it is perceived and dealt with in Western Countries?

Have you no moral foundations?

Lastly, allow me to point out that if Scotland and the rest of Great Britain is so bad, such an evil place, why don't you just leave and go to an Islamic country?

You can wear the hijab and burqa, be told when, where, how, and with whom, you can travel outside the house of your family. amd look forward to being considered, what is it, 1/3 the worth of a Muslim man?

Oh yes indeed, Islamic countries are the feline's meow! A virtual paradise of pleasure and understand, tolerance, and di

325

Tobytoo,

CT, U.S.A. 12/12/2007 19:38:13

#92 After your rant about the U.S. Scottish Border immigrants WHAT is your point. Do you think that the offsprings of those uneducated Scots (your words not mine) are the only ones that listen to Fox News and shop at Wal-Mart etc. Get a life and don't be so miserable

326

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 12/12/2007 19:40:07

Islam is part of many peoples' family and culture, as Christianity is in mine. I don't see as a mindless mob. Have you spoken to any Pakistanis as individuals and persons and discovered they'd lived in the locality longer than you have and been running a useful business and they still do?

Are muslims a community when frequently they dislike each other to be on non-speaking terms? How Scottish.

The man that services my car is from a traveller family with his own modern garage.

Is he "them" or "other"? I don't think so.

Dictatorships like to call themselves "The West" however ludicrous this is on a spherical planet.

327

,

12/12/2007 19:43:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1226080, Article id was mapped to record!
328

Liam D,

baile nam leumadair-mara 12/12/2007 19:57:43

The author writes we "need" an additional 20,000 people each year? Hmmm ... how did people used to solve this problem? I seem to remember reading in a history book sometime that people used have their own babies! What a stunning idea!

It's not even to say anything negative about Muslims -- 99.9% of whom are law-abiding and peace loving -- but if don't don't start raising our own children in our own culture and with our own values ... well, will the last one to leave please turn off the light?