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Gay attack is 'un-Christian' says Foulkes

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Published Date: 14 March 2008
LOTHIANS Labour MSP George Foulkes has branded a Catholic bishop's comments "un-Christian".
Bishop of Motherwell Joseph Devine caused controversy by claiming that the gay community had launched what he called a "conspiracy" against Christian tradition.

The bishop added: "I saw actor Ian McKellen being honoured for his work on behalf of homosexuals, when a century ago Oscar Wilde was locked up and put in jail."

Now Mr Foulkes has tabled a motion in the Scottish Parliament expressing concern at "the hurt which will be caused to gay people, and gay Catholics in particular, by the unfortunate, outdated and un-Christian remarks of Bishop Devine".





The full article contains 112 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 14 March 2008 9:54 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Gay and Lesbian issues
 
1

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14/03/2008 10:05:56
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2

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 14/03/2008 10:40:39
It's all too Christian, I suspect.
3

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14/03/2008 10:52:27
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4

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14/03/2008 11:25:18
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5

karolgadge,

Accrington 14/03/2008 11:38:49
The bishop is not inciting hatred of gays. He is stating that homosexual pressure groups have made no secret of their desire to bring about the downfall of traditional Christian sexual ethics. Gays as individuals are not being condemned.
And, in questioning BenTen, when did the Inquisition hold sway in Scotland - and what were its judgements? I'd like to know.
6

Hmmmm,

Glasgow 14/03/2008 11:49:44
#4 Nice, how you can use the phrase bufties and in the next sentence claim you are trying not to offend.

The Christian church teaches against homosexuality because of a few lines in the old testament. Similar to those that tell us not to eat shell fish etc. Jesus specifically criticised those that followed the detail of his fathers teaching without following the guiding principles of Love, understanding, tolerance etc. This is the reason that Christian do not follow the same eating restrictions as Jewish people.

No, 2000 years later we have senior members of the Christian faith making the same mistake of concentrating on the detail but forgetting the message.

7

Duncan in Edinburgh,

14/03/2008 12:13:04
#5 Define "traditional Christian sexual ethics".

Gay rights groups have made no secret of the fact that they want an end to oppressive, unnecessary homophobic legal and social restrictions. The fact that people choose to define these restrictions as "traditional" makes them no more reasonable or just.

Gay people feel attacked by the bishop because his attack affects gay people directly. Every pronouncement which condemns the just and reasonable advances that gay people have made in our society, hurts gay people.
8

John Knox furr First Meenister,

High St, Embra 14/03/2008 12:15:31
The bishop added: "I saw actor Ian McKellen being honoured for his work on behalf of homosexuals, when a century ago Oscar Wilde was locked up and put in jail."

That's right, Bishop. Yesterday I saw an RC bishop talking on TV. 400 years ago we were running them out the country.
9

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14/03/2008 12:28:20
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10

Merouane,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 12:30:38
Wow, Foulkes has made a sensible comment in Parliament. I do agree with #2 though, I'm not sure just how "un-Christian" the remarks of the Bishop were.
11

PaulB,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 12:37:56
The Bishop's comments are perhaps truly believed by him, but they betray a way of thinking that is light years from the society most tolerant decent Scots wish to live in today. Perhaps he should concentrate more on the continuing string of child abuse scandals perpetrated by his own Priests, and on the poverty worldwide caused by his church's outdated practices. Gay people are quite entitled to attend Holocaust Memorial services, as we, like Jews, were systematically tortured and killed by the Nazis. For once, I find myself agreeing with George Foulkes!
12

Calum Crubag,

14/03/2008 12:38:48
This kind of attack is very Christian. All religions specialise in bigotry. Their very existance is based on unreason and fantasy.

It's appalling that this bigot Devine has responsibility for education. Why too are Christians obsessed with the private lives of others?
13

Jenny MacArthur,

14/03/2008 12:39:23
The hatemongering of homophobic 'Christians' disgusts me. Jesus Christ would have been utterly appalled at the victimisation and bullying that goes on in his name, which can drive innocent children to suicide in some cases. It has nothing whatsoever to do with his message, and everything to do with right wing moralisers who want to use religion as a tool to impose their ridiculous sexual hang-ups on everyone else.

As a confirmed heterosexual I'm perfectly comfortable with gay friends, safe in the knowledge that homosexuality is 'natural' in any definition that doesn't depend on an extremely perverted reading of the bible. E.g. every animal species; every society in history; every culture in the world. To say that hate towards gays is biblical is nonsense; do these nasty bigots really stone adulterers, and do they avoid every proscription in Leviticus? Impossible!

We should have zero tolerance of hatemongers calling themselves Christian. Tell them to their faces how much damage they do to Jesus Christ's real message of love and tolerance. They are disgusting evil people, and the Church 'leaders' should be thrown out of the church for their neo-nazi attitudes.
14

Calum Crubag,

14/03/2008 12:40:04
This kind of dark age argument is actually very Christian. Why do these bible-bashers take so much interest in the private lives of others? Why do sins of the flesh seem to figure to prominently in their campaigns?
15

Jenny MacArthur,

14/03/2008 12:40:48
Oh yes, and funny how often the bigots turn out to be closet gays themselves!! They should get self-acceptance therapy rather than work out their hang-ups by persecuting innocent victims.
16

Calum Crubag,

14/03/2008 12:42:38
The bishop added: "I saw actor Ian McKellen being honoured for his work on behalf of homosexuals, when a century ago Oscar Wilde was locked up and put in jail."


Does he want us to start burning heretics too? How about people who use condoms? Fire or jail?
17

Journalistic licence,

Tynecastle Development Ground 14/03/2008 12:44:53
Aye Mr Knox and 3 years ago I saw Mr Foulkes welcome Vladimir Romanov with open arms. Next thing he was being run out of Tynecastle.
18

Leithen Laddie,

Borders 14/03/2008 12:47:45
Come on George, go back to sleeping on the backbenches at Westminster, you have had your day and have no relevance in Scottish politics today.
19

subrosa,

14/03/2008 12:57:20
# 13 'Why too are Christians obsessed with the private lives of others?'

I'm not at all interested in the private lives of others but it appears to me that the gay community are intent upon forcing their private lives upon me. Too many use their sexuality to gain a high profile. Time they used their abilities.

It doesn't interest me in the least if a great engineer or scientist is gay or hetrosexual.
20

Unimpressed one,

14/03/2008 12:57:56
Perhaps Jesus was homosexual, after all most of his close friends were male.
21

Duncan in Edinburgh,

14/03/2008 12:58:48
#19 He appears to be proving you quite wrong. I assume your attack is party political, in which case I have to ask - where are the senior SNP figures to argue the case for LGBT equality? Where is Alex Salmond's condemnation of this man whose conference he addressed just a few weeks ago? Where is the Scottish Government's leadership?
22

Fifi la Bonbon,

14/03/2008 13:05:22
The Bishop wants gay men locked up like Oscar was for "flaunting" themselves. Now despite my asking the question repeatedly in this organ, none of the bishop's defenders are prepared to say if they agree with him on this point.

You christians - do you support his call for gay men to be punished for not keeping out of sight? What sort of punishment should be imposed?

It seems to me that if we give any credence to this fellow Devine, we are going along with repression and persecution. That is what he's really after.
23

Rossmcl,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 13:06:52
#22 The SNP won't condemn the Bishop because some of their senior members basically agree with him. Winnie Ewing springs to mind. Have you ever heard her on the subject of gays? Her son-in-law Fergus (a government minister) is not exactly enlightened wither, nor is Andrew Welsh.
24

Fifi la Bonbon,

14/03/2008 13:08:09
Good point, Duncan. This bishop was quick to praise the SNP for their support for his position - why haven't we heard a cheep from any member of the SNP Scottish Government repudiating his foul comments?
25

Fifi la Bonbon,

14/03/2008 13:10:23
The least we deserve is Kenny McAskill or John Swinney standing up and defending the rights and liberties of LGBT Scots to be out and proud. I don't quite see it, somehow.
26

Unimpressed one,

14/03/2008 13:10:42
It must be obvious that if it were not for the fact that they are limited within the laws of a modern secular society, the RCs would unleash a campaign of victimisation and hatred against those it sees as a threat to its teachings. History is full of examples of the hatred this church has against non-believers.
27

Duncan in Edinburgh,

14/03/2008 13:15:15
This should be an issue on which all the leaders of the major political parties can unite. All the party policies - including the Tories - stand diametrically opposed to the Bishop's reported views. Those policies are worthless unless they are acted upon.

Perhaps if Wendy, Nicol and Annabel all stood up and made statements on this, Alex would be shamed into doing the same?

We need political leadership here, otherwise the bishop's hatred will continue to be considered acceptable by people.
28

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 14/03/2008 13:17:28
The male to male sexual penetration or oral act turns my stomach, but if thats what they want to do fine by me.
29

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14/03/2008 13:18:13
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30

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14/03/2008 13:19:04
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31

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14/03/2008 13:20:44
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32

Andy Pandy,

Sunny Loanhead 14/03/2008 13:24:04
Why aren't Bishop Divine's comments removed for being offensive? Seriously, did you see him on the news yesterday? He looked like a man in touch with his femininity wearing his dress and a hat at a jaunty angle.

This isn't news - it's sad. I'm going back to work now.
33

Duncan in Edinburgh,

14/03/2008 13:28:38
#29 As shown by your juvenile postings yesterday, you may consider it "fine by me" but that doesn't stop you from making personal remarks against people. Your approach is based entirely on ignorance and lack of empathy. They are the traits of the school playground.

I note that your last juvenile attack on me yesterday has now been removed from that thread. That's a shame - it would be better for idiots to be exposed as idiots rather than have their words deleted.
34

Toast,

14/03/2008 13:29:26
The bishop is a bigot and should be procecuted as such,"there is no place in Scotland for narrow mindedness" quote Jack McConnell.
35

Em,

14/03/2008 13:38:04
Duncan #7
Really, what are the restrictions that homosexuals experience today?
Not everybody considers the homosexual lifestyle to have a benneficial impact on society, and everyone has a right to their own personal view, this does not mean homosexuals are being oppressed or restricted in any way, however homosexual lobby groups demand that their lifestyle be accepted by each individual and in their aim to do so they are oppressing the freedom of others to have an opinion that is contrary to their own.
36

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 14/03/2008 13:39:01
When I reflect on the wonders of nature I´m inclined to believe in God . However I have no belief in any organised religion , including and especially Roman Catholicism . But the Bishops comments regarding homosexuals are valied . Contrary to what some may think , or pretend to think , homosexuality is an aberation . The idea , for example , that a man penetrating another man is natural , normal , is horrific . The embracing of homosexuality in the West is in fact , in my view , a further sympton , among many , of the Wests sickness and decline .
37

Hamish Scott,

14/03/2008 13:41:35
I think it would be good if Alex Salmond told the Bishop where to stick his crozier but I suppose he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't (so to speak) free speech and all that.
38

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 13:45:38
#36, well, as a result of bullying and social pressures, gay teen suicide attempts take place at about four times the rate of heterosexual ones.

But I suppose some posters on here would say that this just gets rid of them more quickly, and so is a good thing.
39

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 13:46:37
#37, > The idea, for example, that a man penetrating another man is natural, normal, is horrific.

Why?
40

Duncan in Edinburgh,

14/03/2008 13:49:45
#36 Try walking around hand-in-hand with a same sex partner for a week and then tell me that gay people are not oppressed today. Try sitting on a park bench with your partner's head resting on your shoulder, or doing one of a million things that mixed-sex couples wouldn't even think twice about.

Try getting spat at in the street, getting beaten up if you walk through the wrong area at the wrong time, getting verbally abused in the street and having the decent, church-going public not lift a finger to help you.

That is how people express their "opinions", and they are bolstered every time a bigoted church leader comes out with this sort of homophobia.

No restrictions? You have literally no clue.
41

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 14/03/2008 13:59:02
37 . The reason NATURE has decreed that man penetrates a woman is to perpetuate the species . This cannot happen in the way I find horrific . I also find abhorent the penentration of an organ designed for expelling waste product . 38 .Yes homosexuality is as I´ve stated an illness , an aberration . No I don´t believe in JEWS OR OTHER UNTOUCHABLES . In fact its part of Jewish orthodoxy that homosexuality is an aberration too .
42

Mr H 2u,

Embra 14/03/2008 14:00:59
Nice to see such a tolerant set of readers, standing up for the Bishops human rights;

Article 18 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights states:

“Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right shall include freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in worship, observance, practice and teaching.
43

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 14:07:15
#44, > The reason NATURE has decreed that man penetrates a woman is to perpetuate the species. This cannot happen in the way I find horrific. <

It can't happen during heterosexual oral or anal sex either, or if a man has sex with a woman during an infertile period, or if the woman has passed the menopause, or if either party is infertile through no fault of their own, or if either party is using contraception.

Ban them all, I say!
44

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 14:08:31
#45, I'd defend to the death Bishop Devine's right to say what he did. That doesn't stop me from disagreeing with his views and saying so.

That's what debate is all about in a free society.
45

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

14/03/2008 14:09:14
44....Heidbanger....

43....thats the problem, people seem to think that gays have equality and should not be moaning...people are STILL being attacked, not just verbally, for being gay, or because someone assumes that they are gay,..'gay' is still used as an insult as in 'thats gay'...gays will not attack heterosexuals holding hands walking down the street...they will not spit in their face or even kill them because of their sexuality....sadly, some people are living in total ignorance.....why do I feel fear for my gay friends when I am socialising with them?...why do I still see the looks of contempt from others around me?...for all the happy heterosexuals out there...this will never be an issue for you....

Perhaps if people did not obsess themselves with sex then they would not be so repulsed....I do not imagine what gay people do in bed, cos I aint interested....I do not imagine what heterosexual people do in bed cos I aint interested...

Ask yourselves this WHY are YOU so interested?...mmmmmh? ,
46

Duncan in Edinburgh,

14/03/2008 14:09:22
#45 Actually that is only part 1 of Article 18. Now why would someone choose to only partially repeat that article I wonder? Perhaps because it goes on to say:

"Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health, or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others."

Ah, so in fact, given that the Bishop was very definitely trying to undermine the fundamental rights and freedoms of others, he has no protection under the ICCPR.

Perhaps you should check your copy, in case that paragraph has been missed out? Or perhaps you should just start arguing honestly.
47

PaulB,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 14:20:59
Well said Duncan - I could not have made those points better myself! Perhaps the Bish should be charged with inciting hatred, as he has no protection!
48

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 14/03/2008 14:21:32
48 . Hardly . 46 . Don´t quite understand your point . Did you offer supporting evidence for my argument or what ? In so far as I´m concerned I have no interest in what others do so long as it does not impinge upon me . I don´t happen to care for public homosexual acts , nor hetero , nor breast feeding etc . But hey , the world does not conform to my wits . Homosexuality is an aberration that demands not only acceptance but promotion too . This I reject .
49

Em,

14/03/2008 14:21:49
#40

Assuming your statistic is correct, this is still not due to restrictions imposed on homosexuals and suicide attempts of homosexual adults are not necessarily due to social stigma.
Recent studies show homosexuals have a substantially greater risk of suffering from psychiatric problems than do heterosexuals. We see higher rates of suicide, depression, bulimia, antisocial personality disorder, and substance abuse.
The authors of a study done in The Netherlands were surprised to find so much mental illness in homosexual people in a country where tolerance of homosexuality is greater than in almost all other countries.
Another good comparison country is New Zealand, which is much more tolerant of homosexuality than is the United States. Legislation giving the movement special legal rights is powerful, consistently enforced throughout the country, and virtually never challenged.
Despite this broad level of social tolerance, suicide attempts were common in a New Zealand study and occurred at about the same rate as in the U.S.
50

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

14/03/2008 14:31:18
51...Wit..?..whit?...whit wit?....

You are a class act mate...lumping breast feeding in with public sexual acts....I would suggest you get yourself along to the nearest psychiatric support service pronto...or look it up in the Yella pages under 'Freud' and 'sexually disturbed'...
51

Duncan in Edinburgh,

14/03/2008 14:34:26
#52 Sorry, why on earth would anyone be trying to argue that "suicide attempts of homosexual adults are not necessarily due to social stigma"? What possible good does it do you to make that point? Does your homophobia run so deep that you cannot even accept that persecution can drive people to self harm? I ask again - what purpose are you serving? Why would you want to find reasons not to believe this?

Here's a fact for you to conjure with: during the section 28 debate, when the "Keep the Clause" bullies were maintaining a homophobic attack in the media for months, and renting billboards to advertise and legitimise homophobia, incidents of self harm and suicide among young gay people rocketed.

Stop denying this reality to prop up your unconscionable beliefs. This is real, it is happening, people are suffering, and enough is enough.
52

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 14:38:01
#51 > In so far as I´m concerned I have no interest in what others do so long as it does not impinge upon me <

Why are you attacking homosexual acts on this thread, then, using words such as "aberration" and "horrific"?
53

,

14/03/2008 14:42:14
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54

Boy Wonder,

14/03/2008 14:45:50
It's good to see lots of people online bashing the bishop! :D
55

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 14:47:18
#56 > A particular study has found that homosexuals showed definite personal and emotional oversensitivity <

I imagine Jews would have done, too, at certain times and in certain places.
56

Duncan in Edinburgh,

14/03/2008 14:53:33
#56 You have absolutely no grounds for this. All you are doing is desperately repeating lies which are designed to maintain homophobic falsehoods.

I recognise the style of argument - quasi-scientific facts with absolutely no coherent basis - as being typical of the publications of the Christian Institute and CARE. Have you been exposed to this propaganda?

"A particular study has found" - oh really.

"It has been found that" - has it indeed.

If you follow the references in these works of fiction you eventually find discredited doctors, bigoted psychiatrists, and people utterly at odds with the vast majorities of their processional colleagues - people blinded by their religious beliefs.

"The median number of partners for homosexuals is four times higher than for heterosexuals" - more lies from CI and CARE, based on US lies from Evangelical groups with a deeply anti-gay agenda.

Stop swallowing this stuff. Read up about the truth. Gay people are not out to harm anyone, we just want the homophobic attacks to stop.
57

regg,

edinburgh 14/03/2008 15:07:03
i imagine the sort of people that beat up/spit at / shout abuse at gay folks would also do it to asians/diabled/goths or whoevers path they happened to cross if they were in the mood for it.
58

tomias,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 15:08:19
As in prior posts to day- whay am I being prevented for reading the posts before thay are taken out? I am one of the most sensable persons on this site and have seen read a lot more than the average here- including pre puberteal sub editors.
Stop treating us as infant idiots
59

Sgurr,

14/03/2008 15:10:33
Frankly, who cares what these religious types think? This just shows how irrelevant they are. It really gets my goat that these senior punters get seats in the House of Lords - an imperfect place at the best of times, but why should they automatically get to sit and deliberate on laws? Bah.

Interesting reading Duncan in Edinburgh's views - never really thought about half that stuff before. I can honestly say I've never seen a gay male couple holding hands...female, yes, males no. Makes you think.
60

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 15:17:52
#62 > Interesting reading Duncan in Edinburgh's views - never really thought about half that stuff before. I can honestly say I've never seen a gay male couple holding hands...female, yes, males no. Makes you think.

Well, at least something good has come out of the discussion. It's made people think about things they haven't considered before, and made them see them in a new way. That's healthy.
61

ADMuir,

14/03/2008 16:12:38
Has anybody noticed how much the pope looks like the emperor from Star Wars... coincidence?
62

Stewart C.,

Stranraer 14/03/2008 16:17:19
Labour and sexual ethics go hand-in-hand, don't they:

http://www.thelabourparty.org/article_01.htm
63

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

Utah Ski Trails 14/03/2008 16:18:19
400 years ago priests were being burned at the stake for heresy. Now it seems they can say what they like.

Would Devine really like to turn back the clock?
64

Hamish Scott,

14/03/2008 16:28:03
#62 "It really gets my goat that these senior punters get seats in the House of Lords - an imperfect place at the best of times, but why should they automatically get to sit and deliberate on laws? Bah."

Sgurr - RC bishops don't sit in the House of Lords, only Anglican bishops. It's ironic that a bishop in a church that is the subject of prejudice - head of state can't be a catholic, no catholic bishops in House of Lords - should be advocating prejudice (Note: prejudice not mere disapproval).
65

Pontificatus Maximus of Avignon,

14/03/2008 17:15:57
I wondered how long it would take the Baron George For-foulkes-Sake to stick his oar in. However I am surprised that a rightwinger like him is critical of His Divine-ness, the Pishup of Motherwell.
66

George Laird,

Glasgow 14/03/2008 18:41:49
Dear All

I think that the Bishop is entitled to his views, free speech.

I can only wonder what Foulkes is doing in this, does he think that there is a drink in it for him?

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
67

John Knox furr First Meenister,

14/03/2008 18:52:13
Dear George Laird

I think that the Foulksy is entitled to his views, free speech.

I can only wonder what you are doing in this, do you think that there is a drink in it for you?

Yours sincerely
John Knox
The Campaign for Human Rights everywhere apart from Glasgow University
68

James (1),

14/03/2008 20:15:59
Yet another example of the Church not being in step with this PC world we live in.
To speak out against Gays even though you believe what you say makes you a bad person. You have said what you think but now be prepared for the insults. Your view is not valid. Even mentioning it is not normal opens you up to insults.
You only have a valid point if you are FOR gays. Please do not say anything against them even if your religion is against it.
69

Furchrissake,

15/03/2008 01:56:12
7 Duncan in Edinburgh, As you were told yesterday, the bishop attacked the 'Gay Lobby'. It is the 'Gay Lobby' that is individualising his comments. And, of coure, you are still at it.

22 Duncan in Edinburgh, Why on earth should the Scottish Parliament give support to the LGBT? Perhaps Alex Salmond is all too aware that they already have too much power in calling the shots on how the rest of us should think.

28 Duncan in Edinburgh, You think it's an issue on which all the leaders of the major political parties can unite. Hah. It's a trivial issue about a minority in society. And if you read the article properly, you would note that the issue is not about LGBT, but about Tatchell's 'Gay Lobby' - and we all know what Tatchell is about, don't we, Duncan?

Tatchell's 'Gay Lobby' would like to see the age of consent removed altogther - Why would adult homosexuls want the removal of the age at which a child can consent to sex with an adult?

Always remember - Tatchell's ultimate aim is to promote legal sex with children as the 'norm'.
70

Furchrissake,

15/03/2008 01:57:53
And, Duncan, it was PETER MANDELSON who drove the removal of Section 28 - that allows homosexual propaganda into the classroom and the playground.
71

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15/03/2008 01:59:59
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72

Justinian,

London 15/03/2008 02:09:32
I feel one should be fair to Bishop Devine. What he is saying about homosexuals I was taught by his Church at school, in the 1960s and 70s - about Jews. My RI teacher questioned whether the Holocaust had really taken place or was a conspiracy by 'the Jewish lobby' to make people sympathetic to their plight and support the Jewish state. I subsequently lost my faith when I visited the Museum at Dachau in the early 1980s and discovered that what I had been taught to question the existence of, actually did exist. I have been a strong Judeophile ever since.

On the issue of paedophilia which has been used to criticise the RCC, it must be borne in mind that all the paedophile priests have abused boys - that is, have practiced non-consensual homosexual acts on boys - and that the Church is addressing this by seeking to eradicate homosexuals from the Church. However it is regrettable that the message coming from the Church in the 1960s-1980s was one of tolerating paedophilia in its ranks (something, interestingly, which Hitler criticised the RCC for in the 1930s) whilst threatening the parents of abused boys, to keep quiet, as it would be used to undermine the moral authority of the Church. They were right about that! I cannot understand why the RCC regards Priestly paedophile practice as less morally evil than consensual homosexual practice between adults. The Bible is clear in its condemnation of homosexual paedophilia (though it seems to regards heterosexual paedophilia as acceptable!)

It is rather ironic for Devine to talk about a homosexual conspiracy at a time when the Church is demanding that RC MPs at Westminster oppose medical research into finding treatments for painful medical ailments, where these use embryos. Why should RC MPs be allowed to deny ill people who are non-Catholics hope. Surely this itself seeks to impose a RC faith choice upon non fellow travellers? Interestingly the Church has been silent about the banks that rely on usury; the quiet toleran
73

Furchrissake,

15/03/2008 02:26:26
77# I am an atheist and despise the catholic religion, but the bishop's comments were about the 'Gay Lobby' and not individual homosexuals. And he is right about the purpose of the gay lobby. It is not about equality any more, because they have achieved that through legislation.

It is about forcing society to recognise homosexuality as THE social norm. It is also very forceful in lobbying for the removal of the age of consent at which for children may have sex with adults.
74

donald,

glasgow 15/03/2008 08:54:33
Jambo Queen lover attacks bashes Bishop.
75

James (1),

15/03/2008 09:32:14
#74+77 points well made but unfortunately you have committed a serious mistake!
You have spoken out against gays and that has only one consequence. You will now be insulted as reason is not in the armoury of the gay.

There are many things gays will not recognise and to state facts is not acceptable. For example
1- It is not normal to be gay- that is a fact but not accepted to say so. Don't state the obvious! Its like those religous types who will not have you name a bear by a certain name. The world is right according to us and it is actually flat not round.

2- If they do not want to be straight then that is their choice and they have a right to do so and be very vocal about it. Who really cares?
Attention seeking appears to be a way of life for a group of people who profess they "only want to get on with their lives" They do but want to keep telling you about it.

I once heard Ricky Gervais make mention about the march to lower the age of consent for homosexuals.
He did observe that there were not many 16 year olds marching for this right.
That is the thing with observational humour, its funny because it is stating what we all know is really true.
76

,

15/03/2008 09:43:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
77

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 15/03/2008 10:46:10
Given labours slide in support its not surpising to see him trying to gain the support of Lothians large gay community.
78

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

15/03/2008 11:21:40
76...Takes a lot to disgust me, but you do.

And D.head...usual waffle about gay people...away you go and finally meet Galactic Cannibal head to head you coward....
79

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

15/03/2008 11:30:14
77....Are you not aware that some married men and men in heterosexual relationships...also are pedophiles and molest and abuse male and female children....not just female children....its NOT about homosexuality ...its about the control and domination of a child... these abusive priests are first and foremost pedophiles, perhaps, as it has been going on for so long in the Catholic, church they are merely displaying behaviour that they were on the receiving end of. It is said that the Catholic church attracts male pedophiles as priests because of its known history of sheltering them.. I am sure that you will find..within the Catholic church, heterosexual, homosexual and bisexual priests.. However these pedophile priests will not find themselves with a great deal of access to little girls will they?...but little boys yes, in abundance...'priesthood' being the male dominated institution that it is.....
80

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/03/2008 11:32:35
A political pressure group based on sexual preference is just not on. For a group to push an agenda based on sexual preference in order to obtain the same basic rights given for gender race or basically just being a human being is insane. The gay community already share the same basic human rights as every body else just for being human now the want added rights for being human and Gay?? The church doesnt exclude gays for being human beings they are excluding the Idea of homosexuality in the same way as they exclude the idea of judaism and Islam. It simply doesnt fit into their faith so what??? I personally think their faith is flawed but its their faith and they are entitled to believe what they want and there is no right or wrong about it. If a gay catholic wishes to believe in a Gay GOD then fine its your faith and nobody can legislate to tell you it isnt. Nobody forces gays into the church they obviously join through faith so they must accept this faith. If they want to alter it then start another one and stop trying to interfere with somebody elses where do you think the protestant faith derived from?
81

,

15/03/2008 11:44:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
82

Amparo de Glasgow,

15/03/2008 11:47:28
Well you want a picture of the future??

Imagine a world run by clones
...of Peter 'the Brazilian' Mandalson

... rare tear ehhh??

Och who wants tae huv weans onywayes
... the more airse-bandiits the better ehh??
83

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

15/03/2008 12:54:49
49

It seems to me that the Gay community is interfering with some peoples basic human rights in not believing homosexuality has a place in the Catholic faith and is actually forcfully trying to alter their faith to suit their own version of beliefs in spite of the fact that some of these gays joined the Catholic church based on the present day faith therefore accepting it for what it was.
And if there are members of this pressure group not actually affiliated with the Catholic church then its frankly got f*ck all to do with them. Peoples beliefs and faith are there own and shouldnt be interfered with and certainly not on a sexually motivated basis.

Miss H
This illustrates exactly what I was on about before with regards to political lobbying.
84

Em,

15/03/2008 14:23:40
#85 Cankers,

I am disguisted at the perversions that have been allowed to go on within the church.
But this whole mess has come about because of corrupt homosexual friendly bishops who act as enablers to homosexual priests in allowing them to achieve positions of power within the church. they get them into good positions within their diocese usually as parish priests, that is why when you find these type of cases it is usually within a certain diocese and covers several parishes within that diocese,

A study on sexual abuse noted that 80% of the sexual abuse in the priesthood involved adolescent males rather than young boys, pointing to the core problem being one of homosexuality, not strictly pedophilia.

Incidentally, Yale and Harvard-connected psychiatrist Jeffrey Satinover states that "careful studies show that pedophilia is far more common among homosexuals than heterosexuals " Satinover adds, "The greater absolute number of heterosexual cases reflects the fact that heterosexual males outnumber homosexual males by approximately 36 to 1. Heterosexual child molestation cases outnumber homosexual cases by only 11 to 1, implying that pedophilia is more than three times more common among homosexuals."

To suggest all gay men have a fixated attraction to male children, or young men, is foolish. However, research repeatedly shows a disproportionate do! Studies show that heterosexuals molest most children generally. Gays are quick to point this out in order to conceal their behaviour. But the facts are against them! Homosexuals, as a defined group, are consistently and disproportionately over represented in male child molestation cases when compared with heterosexuals, as a defined group.

So for you to champion homosexuals while condemning the church for the perversions that have went on within it seems a bit like double standards when you stop to consider that homosexuality was at the root of the problem.
85

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/03/2008 14:52:23
If some human beings are going to define themselves by their sexual preferences doesnt this force all human beings to define themselves by sexual preference?
We already have definitions by race sex religion and colour now we must introduce sexual preference into the mix.
Must I now define myself as a Christian caucasian Scottish heterosexual male? instead of just a man?
Where and when is it going to end? are we going to get PC pressure groups forming to push a particular hair colour forcing another group to emerge to represent baldies?
86

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 15/03/2008 16:31:37
#2 Gregor Addison: You're absolutely right. In my experience Bishop Devine is absolutely typical of Christians. Instead of trying to appreciate that a mutually supportive, loving relationship can exist between people of the same gender, I have discovered that by far the majority of committed Christians with whom I have discussed this issue have been obsessed with the sex act. Besides which Christians don't even have the slightest clue about the highly dubious origins of their own faith, or the fact that the Torah/Pentateuch was rewritten umpty-ump times - how many times it was edited before reaching the final version, we can only guess at.
87

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 15/03/2008 16:39:23
I have met a fair number of gays. In all cases they say that their sexual orientation was apparent to them from adolescence. In one case the parent of a gay told me that they knew their boy was different to the other boys from early childhood. It should be borne in mind that nature does not require many fertile males to propagate the species, so it is wholly unnecessary for all men to be straight. The latest information I read said that medical professionals now feel that the huge majority of gays are genetically gay, rather than merely pschologically gay. There appears to be a reason for this - gays excel many communciations & arts orientated areas (Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, and Tchaikovsky were all gay), and it is highly likely that in evolutionary terms a certain number of gays in each generation played some vital role that ensured the entire species survived better. In other words, the human genetic code is programmed to produce a certain number of gays in each generation, because they help us as a species to function better. Gay men tend to have much higher EQs than straight men, and this alone is a valuable asset. As for the cretins who would condemn gays, whether they live in Iran or the UK, we really ought to burn them at the stake. OOPS! What have I just said?!
88

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

15/03/2008 17:12:33
90...Em...you are a trier Em...I'l give you that...now would that be Jeffrey Satinover of 'Homosexuality and the politics of truth' fame?...a book lauded as being interpreted from a 'traditional Judeo Christian view point?'...mmmh Em?...would that be the one...

Tell me Em...what would that suggest to anyone?
89

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/03/2008 17:12:48
93

"The latest information I read said that medical professionals now feel that the huge majority of gays are genetically gay, rather than merely pschologically gay. There appears to be a reason for this - gays excel many communciations & arts orientated areas (Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, and Tchaikovsky were all gay), and it is highly likely that in evolutionary terms a certain number of gays in each generation played some vital role that ensured the entire species survived better. In other words, the human genetic code is programmed to produce a certain number of gays in each generation, because they help us as a species to function better. Gay men tend to have much higher EQs than straight men, and this alone is a valuable asset."

That is a huge leap in faith based on the inconclusive scientific evidence and sparse data available or is it wishful thinking? not much difference really you could actually start your own religion on these conclusions.
Thats how all religions started out.

90

Stewart C.,

Stranraer 15/03/2008 20:52:33
93 Caora Dubh, actually, I think you will find that homosexual behaviour has been taboo in almost every culture in almost every age for very good societal reasons, including reasons of health benefits for the whole tribe.

But as someone commented earlier, #81 James (1), stating facts is no longer acceptable.

Another thing, if there is a 'gay gene' it must be extremely weak or it would have died out millennia ago for obvious reasons.

Let's face the fact and admit that homosexual behaviour is a choice made by people with enough intelligence to know what they are doing and potentially enough willpower not to do what we all (should) know is wrong.

I'm not judging anyone here, just stating the obvious from the experience of billions of people over past millennia. We're all sinners, but we don't all demand respect for it and good job too.
91

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

15/03/2008 21:14:24
96....Nonsense...
92

Stewart C.,

Stranraer 15/03/2008 21:22:08
97 Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen, serious debate, analysis and pertinent rebuttals as well as a knowledge of history and simple common sense are not your strong points, I take it.
93

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

15/03/2008 23:42:55
Fourth paragraph down...utter drivel...religion based guff and you know it...pompous preaching based on what?.....who is 'we?' who are you speaking for mister?....certainly not for me?.....

Nonsense....
94

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

15/03/2008 23:43:39
100.....Amen!
95

Stewart C.,

Stranraer 16/03/2008 00:51:39
99 - "Fourth paragraph down...utter drivel...religion based guff and you know it..."

Read paragraph 1 again: "I think you will find that homosexual behaviour has been taboo in almost every culture in almost every age for very good societal reasons, including reasons of health benefits for the whole tribe."

You just WISH it were a solely religious issue as it makes it easier for homosexuals to condemn those who oppose their unhealthy, immoral, unnatural lifestyle as religious nutters whose opinions are of lesser value than their own.

A homosexual's opinion on homosexuality is going to be different to a heterosexual's view, although not always, as plenty of homosexuals feel bad about their sexuality and a homosexual admitted that to me.

Please don't think a PC worldview is better than a Christian one or even a caveman's one.
96

shirleyone03,

ny 17/03/2008 09:13:57
Actually, gay can also be christian. so does it for LGBT. As for me, I love Bible. I enjoy the blief in thepro Bible. We had thought it is impossible for others to refer to LGBT when they talked about Bible. That is most of my honest bisexual friend met at http://www.bimingle.com who are also christians. It's great to have such a discussion. I would like to hear it clear soon with the firm belief in my hearts. Hope it can be a success.

 

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