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EC urged to put brakes on M74 project



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Published Date: 28 January 2008
SCOTLAND'S biggest road-building project was thrown into confusion last night after the European Commission was asked to investigate claims ministers broke the rules over the contract.
The Scotsman has learned that a formal complaint was lodged with the EC over the Scottish Government's handling of the main contract for the controversial M74 extension in Glasgow.

The Greens claim ministers and the companies involved in the tende
r process broke two key European Union directives and are calling on the EC to intervene and halt the project.

The official complaint is the latest stage in what has been a protracted battle between the environmental lobby and the Scottish Government over the £500 million project.

While the complaint to the commission represents the last possible attempt to stop the M74 extension, it is also one of the most serious and potentially most important moves by the environmentalists so far.

If the EC does decide that ministers broke the rules, then, at the very least, it will put back the project by several years and could even signal the end for it altogether.

The extension is designed to link the M74 to the M8, west of the Kingston Bridge in Glasgow. The five miles of motorway are estimated to cost about £500 million.

The project has been backed by business groups, local authorities in the area and the current Scottish Government – it was previously supported by the Labour-led Scottish Executive.

Green campaigners have mounted a vociferous campaign against it, however, claiming the new road would cause serious damage to the environment.

The complaint, from an individual member of the Green Party but backed by the party's MSPs, alleges possible anti-competitive practices, cartel activity and unlawful state aid in connection with the M74 project.

The Greens are focusing on the decision by four potential bidders to combine as one consortium to tender for the work, and the decision by ministers to unify two contracts into one, moves that the environmentalists believe were anti-competitive and against EU rules.

Patrick Harvie, a Green MSP, said he hoped the European challenge would give ministers time to "look again at the whole process" of the M74 extension.

He said: "

Labour, Lib Dem and now SNP ministers must all take a share of responsibility for this failed process. Awarding a contract under these circumstances would be reckless in the extreme, especially given the power the commission has to cancel any contracts retrospectively if the process does break European law."

Mr Harvie, a Glasgow MSP, went on: "The Scottish Government must think very carefully about whether to proceed with this fundamentally ill-conceived project."

The Greens have acted now because a tough new directive from Europe was issued in the past few weeks, making it clear the EC would crack down hard on any anti-competitive practices in government procurement.

That directive makes it clear any contracts found to be anti-competitive would have to be ripped up and the process started again.

The environmentalists believe this latest directive gives them a good chance of halting the M74 contract, and delaying the project indefinitely.

There have also been unconfirmed reports that the Scottish Government is preparing to agree terms with the contractor in the next ten days, and the Greens want the commission to intervene before that happens.

The Greens claim ministers allowed four companies to join together into one consortium to bid for the work and, in doing so, failed to comply with article 81 of the treaty establishing the European Community.

They also allege that the companies that came together to form the consortium represented a "cartel", which prevented others from competing equally for the work.

A spokeswoman for the Scottish Government agency Transport Scotland said last night: "We are not aware of any complaint and would not comment further unless there was a formal case to answer.

"The M74 completion project has been properly audited and we believe the tendering process complies fully with procurement law. As with all major infrastructure projects, legal advice was sought at every step in the process."

Negotiations between Transport Scotland and Interlink M74, the consortium of Balfour Beatty, Morgan Est, Morrison Construction and Sir Robert McAlpine, should have finished last April.

A key concern has been to keep down the cost in the absence of competing bids. The final bid was not submitted until November, with Transport Scotland now having just ten days left to strike a deal by the end of the 90-day statutory period, on 7 February.

Completion of the project has been pushed back to 2011, and it now remains to be seen whether that will be delayed further.

A history full of controversy

THE M74 extension – one of Britain's biggest urban motorway projects – has been dogged with controversy since it was conceived as part of a Glasgow inner ring road more than 50 years ago.

While supporters argue it is the final piece of the city's motorway jigsaw, providing a short cut for through traffic, opponents believe it will just generate more traffic which will soon fill up the new road.

The other sides of the planned motorway "rectangle" around the city were completed with the M8 and M73 in the 1970s. But a five-mile gap to the Kingston bridge has remained since an initial extension of the M74 to Carmyle in the south-east was opened in 1994.

Plans to complete the scheme were lodged the following year despite campaign group Glasgow For People warning of "motorway madness" and Labour councillors being accused of ignoring the party's anti-motorway building policy.

The scheme received planning permission in 1995, but a funding dispute between councillors and ministers delayed it until the Scottish Executive agreed in 2001 to provide most of the £245 million cost, with the road to be completed by this year.

Two years later, nearly 400 objections were lodged and ministers admitted the scheme would cost £375-500 million – up to double previous sums.

They said this was partly because significantly more contamination than expected has been found on industrial land the road would cross.

The scheme became mired in the most significant controversy to date when ministers gave it the go-ahead in 2005 despite a public inquiry recommending it should be rejected.

Richard Hickman, the inquiry reporter, said the project was "very likely to have very serious undesirable results" and its congestion benefits would be "probably ephemeral".

Environmental groups launched a legal challenge to the decision the following year, but later abandoned it because of the likely cost of losing.

Transport Scotland said the case added £20 million to the cost, with completion now due in 2010.

However, the project was further delayed after it emerged that only one bid had been received for the building contract in October 2006.



The full article contains 1140 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 January 2008 8:55 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

,

28/01/2008 00:16:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Sanny,

Glasgow 28/01/2008 00:31:30
I don't know if this will finish the M74 but it should certainly finish the Greens as a political force!
3

expat33,

le teich 28/01/2008 00:33:37
hey cpt, so what?

you've done your homework but what's your point?
4

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 28/01/2008 00:43:07
#2 Sanny

Why do you automatically assume that the SNP government cannot possibly have been at fault?
5

Roger Irrelevant,

28/01/2008 00:43:28
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/uk.html

The "cut-and-paste" section of the see eye eh.
6

Carneades,

28/01/2008 00:49:09
As non-sequiturs go, post 4's response to post 2 comes close to taking the biscuit, eating and digesting it and plopping it down the pan.
7

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 28/01/2008 01:01:00
#6 Carneades

Eh? So he thinks the Greens' complaint is justified but "it should certainly finish the Greens as a political force" anyway?!
8

"Confidence In Supply",

28/01/2008 01:03:39
I enjoy the breadth and depth of intellectual debate on these boards.

I give you a poem, courtesy of Mr M Python. Probably copyright but definitely worth reading.



Much to his Mum and Dad's dismay
Horace ate himself one day.
He didn't stop to say his grace,
He just sat down and ate his face.

"We can't have this!" his Dad declared,
"If that lad's ate, he should be shared."
But even as he spoke they saw
Horace eating more and more:

First his leg and then his thighs,
His arms, his nose, his hair, his eyes...
"Stop him someone!" Mother cried
"Those eyeballs would be better fried!"

But all too late, for they were gone,
And he had started on his dong.
"Oh! foolish child!" the father mourns,
"You could have deep-fried that with prawns...,

...Some parsley and some tartare sauce..."
But H. was on his second course:
His liver and his lights and lung,
His ears, his neck, his chin, his tongue;

"To think I raised him from the cot
And now he's going to scoff the lot!"
His Mother cried: "What shall we do?
What's left won't even make a stew..."


And as she wept, her son was seen
To eat his head, his heart, his spleen.
And there he lay: a boy no more,
Just a stomach, on the floor...


None the less, since it was his
They ate it - that's what haggis is.*
9

Mike Giggler,

28/01/2008 01:11:12
You really have to laugh, don'tcha?!
10

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 28/01/2008 01:12:08
I Know the M74 very, very, well! from..'pillar-to-post'

It has always been a,..'Doomed'..Road!

'Dual Carriageway'.. Call it a Motorway!

Upgrade to a Motorway!..etc!

No Surprises on this next fiasco!
11

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 28/01/2008 01:19:27
Come off the M6..'whiz..whiz'
M74..no-one realises its now..'Not a Motorway' and 3 Lanes..'olny 2 lanes now.!

But..Still.."Whiz..Whiz..Whiz.!

'Smash..Smash..Smash'..'Plenty Dead Now'.!
12

doublescotch,

U.S.A. 28/01/2008 01:21:48
#10 Hello Charles. (This has nothing to do with the article) I am going to be a grandma! Hope things are going well with you.
DOW:)
13

Richardinho,

28/01/2008 01:23:34
The greens are so 2/5/7. Sooner they go the same way as the tommy sheridan socialist sex workers party the better.
14

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 28/01/2008 01:32:47
The greens seem intent on comitting politcal suicide over this one.

Instead of trying to ensure the motorway has as minimal impact as possible they decide to try and block it all together.

Remind me please how many Motorways connect the rest of the UK with Scotland ?

Without adequate transport links the country can never thrive, this has been part of Scotlands problem for years.
15

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 28/01/2008 01:36:34
4 AM2

Once again, a comment by a poster which does not even mention the SNP is used by you to cast an aspersion on the SNP. Your fanaticism has no peer on this site.
16

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA..captured from Mexico 1845 28/01/2008 02:00:22
EC urged to put brakes on M74 project
-------------------------------------

And what will or can Slick Salmond do about the tyrant EU.

NOTHING...yet this is the same guy who is kidding his supporters that he can get independence for the motherland Scotland.

A foolish clown he be, Slick Salmond

GC
17

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 28/01/2008 02:06:06
#12 doublescotch, How Beautiful for you and let
'Mummy-to-be' know, we wish her all the best on her impeding birth of her Baby!

#12 doublescotch, you are a God Blessed Person!
And Suzanne (DYW) and I, thankyou very much for all you kindness!
We wish you great happiness
IVF for us, is going through a testing time'
But if it happens, I know for sure, DYW will be a brilliant Mummy, as I will love our child to bits!
If it happens, this Baby will defiantly be a
'Love-Child'
We Wont be taking, her/him onto the M74 though! :-)
18

doublescotch,

U.S.A 28/01/2008 02:19:25
#17 Charles it will happen for you and DYW. It worked for my daughter. I know what you and Susanne are going through. I have being praying for you and Susanne and my daughter and son-in-law.
DOW
19

Navvy,

28/01/2008 02:20:24
The Bard wrote
I'm now arrived-thanks to the gods!-
Thro' pathways rough and muddy,
A certain sign that makin roads
Is no this people's study:
Altho' Im not wi' Scripture cram'd,
I'm sure the Bible says
That heedless sinners shall be damn'd,
Unless they mend their ways.

We must make the roads which are needed to keep the economy moving. We should also decide where we do not want vehicles. Vehicles in traffic jams are a much greater threat to the environment than a few miles of road through old steel works
20

doublescotch,

28/01/2008 02:23:14
#17 Charles forgive me I spelt DYW's name wrong. Tell Suzanne miracles happen everyday.
DOW
21

truthsleuth,

South of the Border 28/01/2008 02:32:56
Three no four cheers for the Greens
There is /was nothing wrong with the A74 that a little improvement here and there would not have solved particularly in the carlisle Area.
What was rong with it is that
1.the petrol heads found difficulty in reaching their top speeds without endangering their and eeveryone elses lives at the same time.
2. Your Monster lorries (40t plus more often than not overloaded)had to slow down occasionally becuase one or more of their similarly overloaded brethren was finding great difficulty in maintaing a reasonable speed on the slightest of gradients.

Both the petrol heads and the diesel outlaws should stop whingein and start paying their full costs.
22

truthsleuth,

South of the Border 28/01/2008 02:42:21
£500million plus for 5 miles of Motorway
Each cubic inch of roadway will be worth its weight in Gold.
By 2011 fuel costs (bio or not) will make the road unnecessary. I find it typical of the petrol heads and road fanatics that they complain about the cost of the Edinburgh tram but quickly avoid the costs of their beloved tarmac.
Note that almost all press releases on roads from Government agencies give passing mention, if they mention the cost at all.
23

W Smith,

Middle East 28/01/2008 03:07:25
Didn't Labour break rules over the contract for Scottish parliament building?

So what't new?
24

viking nz,

new zealand 28/01/2008 04:03:02
SCOTCH AND RYE . onwards and upwards , why oh why do the scots shoot themselves in the foot every time .they laugh at us over the border and can you blame them .
25

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/01/2008 04:05:00
#14 The figures are fudged

There is 1 motorway which connects England with Scotland, taking you to Glasgow and on up to Falkirk if you want. This has nothing to do with connecting England to Scotland so what's your point?
26

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/01/2008 04:06:02
AM2 # 7,

Where does it say he thought the Greens' complaint was justified?
27

williamx,

canada 28/01/2008 04:09:20
How about petrol at 20 pounds per gallon in 2012.
28

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/01/2008 04:10:12
Truthsleuth # 23,

Just what I was thinking.

£500m for 5 miles of motorway
£560m for 12 miles of tramlines + the trams.

Makes them look like a good deal in comparison.

Still think there'll be plenty of cars around in 2011 though.
29

Padraig,

28/01/2008 04:27:25
Is it because it is Sunday night but I can't remember seeing so much comment that is not only irrelevant but doesn't even bother to pay lip service to the issue reported.

Turning to the topic of the report - So much,then, for the Greens' "alliance" with the SNP. We all knew that Patrick Harvie is a loose cannon, likely to ricochet about. Glasgow needs this motorway extension which is long overdue - it will relieve pressure of traffic on the existing northern stretch of the M8 and shorten journeys, improving air quality, speeding up transport and supporting the economy. This is obviously not something that would concern a bigot, however. The trouble is that Harvie will see any further delay as a success instead of an act of vandalism.

That he is not alone in his idiocy is clear from posts already placed here.

Scotland can't afford to lose time in this kind of Luddism - we have too much catching up to do as it is.
30

Hmm ...,

28/01/2008 04:34:58
... "Green campaigners have mounted a vociferous campaign against it, however, claiming the new road would cause serious damage to the environment."

Just more of the "if they build more roads, people will just use them" twaddle.

I see too that "The complaint, from an individual member of the Green Party but (is) backed by the party's MSPs" - this makes it clear that Harvie and Harper think that Scotland's transport policy should be not to have any! And the SNP was misguided enough to let Harvie be chairman of the Scottish Parliament's Transport Committee - talk about the lunatics running the asylum!
31

David MacVicar,

web 28/01/2008 05:10:27
"...it was conceived as part of a Glasgow inner ring road more than 50 years ago."

Labours legacy of accomplishment...

I disagree with the Greens on this but at least most have courage of their convictions. There is no Green alliance with the SNP just confidence support. The Greens will lose out, it will probably be the right decision, at least they are fighting for something they believe.

This road was already needed over 50 years ago, its long, long overdue.
32

Dave B,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 05:22:37
The Greens are losing a lot of credibility over this. Fair enough campaigning over scenic areas that deserve to be protected, but this road serves the industrial heartland of Scotland.. It is ridiculous that our biggest city does not have a ring road.
The holdup currently costs millions in extra transport expenses, huge M8 delays and added air pollution in the city centre.
In the long term, with electric or fuel cell vehicles on the way, many of the arguments against will be insignificant anyway.
The greens should save their energy for some worthwhile battles - the link is going to be completed at some point, and the sooner the better is actually the 'greenest' thing to do.
33

donald,

glasgow 28/01/2008 06:40:47
The ring that never grew,
The road that never flew
The bell that never rang
The burd that flew the coup.

Morris's furniture factory in Rutherglen was given £33m to move one of its buildings up the road for the Mway that never was. It is now paying off 60 odd workers, bringing in panels from China, opening up a factory in Birmingham and employing Polish agency workers.

Morris's sacked it Union after a strike and brought in scabs from Newcastle, some are now foremen.
34

An Beal Bacht,

28/01/2008 07:00:31
This is a great thread! Totally, totally random. Not what I'd expected. Thank you greens for some unexpected thread theatre. It is all drama after all.

I am inspired to complain to the UN that the Scottish Government ( or the "Executive" as Browne dismissively calls it ) is committing genocide on nuclear physicists and failing to spell shyte colorectally. The Avatar death squads are patrolling these threads and are threatening to bore me to death!

Charlie and doublescotch - congrats - and in the spirit - here's a wee song:

It suits today the meek and base
Whose minds are fixed on self and place
To cringe beneath daft Gordon's frown
And haul our sacred emblem down.
But we'll raise Scotland's standard high
Beneath its folds we'll live and die
Tho' cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We'll keep the Scots flag flying here

Slainte
35

Arthur X,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 07:03:28
Anyone that thinks this road would do anything to solve congestion problems is living in la-la-land. The independent reporter said it would have a brief positive effect, which would soon be overwhelmed by the growth in traffic it would lead to.

It's a gargantuan Labour/Lib Dem vanity project, probably tendered illegally, and the SNP should use this opportunity to cancel it and reallocate the money to something useful.

It's like pass the parcel. Stewart Stevenson doesn't want to have to take off the last layer of Tavish's wrapping paper and find a court case, surely?
36

DaveSubsea,

28/01/2008 07:07:24
Lets hope the SNP,Labour and Libs call it in as a matter of national importance, or would that be too much to ask for.

GC Scotland has no voice in Europe, all EU matters go through Wextminster
37

DaveSubsea,

28/01/2008 07:08:22
Is Nicol Stephen shouting sleaze?

No thought not, mind you it is early in the day
38

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta 28/01/2008 07:15:28
37
DaveSubsea,

Hey Dude If what U wrote is true .

Then Westminster must to tell the EU to get lost.

GC
39

TommyKaye,

UK 28/01/2008 07:17:20
AM2: Yes Alistair Campbell will be there and he said he would be happy to sign his book for you, he said come a little bit earlier if you can.
Rgds
40

fife runner,

28/01/2008 07:30:57
#18 just look at the M77 traffic increased 35% in first two years. Try driving along it at rush hour at times it is now a car park.

It is always known new roads generate more traffic. Tell me of one new road built in last twenty years in this country which is not now traffic jammed?
41

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 28/01/2008 07:31:13
The delays to this project have caused significant harm to the south side of Glasgow, in terms of snarling traffic on the roads and a lack of investment due to uncertainty. The Greens need a reality check on this. As someone who lived and worked on the South Side for many years I can assure them much more environmental damage is being caused by not having this completed
42

Agent 99,

Chief's office 28/01/2008 07:40:17
[35] Agreed. Still, there's nothing like a bit of distraction even if it is Charles.L waffling in his inimitable style. You wonder which school taught such constructs.

Anyway: to subject. I can see the merit in completing the original concept but the planners don't seem to have paid any attention to lessons learnt elsewhere.

What is going to happen to all the northbound traffic on the new bit of road as it hits the Kingston bridge? Just east of the bridge is already an 18-hour a day disaster and this will just make it worse. No one's proposing to widen the existing east-west bit of M8 to accommodate the additional traffic (and there will be some) so the result will be longer and more sustained gridlock.

Around London they're constantly widening the M25 which is up to 4 lanes in each direction on some stretches. Doesn't seem to effect any real improvement though.
43

BIG EYE,

Paisley 28/01/2008 07:41:45
This is a slight problem that can easily be solved.

What we need here is one of those letters from the last Lab/Lib government explaining there has been no "intentional wrongdoing".

That will be the end of it won't it?
44

conservative,

Fife 28/01/2008 07:51:25
These bloody greens!!
45

Webbie,

mullingar 28/01/2008 08:01:17
New roads DO generate more traffis.....before the road was built there were ZERO cars drove on that land after the road was built cars drove on it....thats an increase!!!!! Finishing the road will bring some movement elsewhere on our roads so lets finish it and if it closes Morris's(34) then Alex should look at increasing petrol tax to stop people driving to China for new furniture.
I PROMISE NOT TO BUY A NEW 4*4 JUST TO CLOG THE ROADS!!
46

clarry,

balmedie 28/01/2008 08:05:24


This is exactly what these custard greens are trying to do up here with the Trump Development and the Western Peripheral route. Alex (Salmond) is trying to sort it out.

Stop the 'show trial' now or else - you dumb politicos.

Nice to see the double standards of the posters.

47

Sprauncy,

Aberdeenshire - the place to be. 28/01/2008 08:09:27
No Wind Farms, No Nuclear Power, No M74, No Aberdeen By-Pass, No Donald Trump Golf, our planning process is like a rabbit caught in car headlights. Minorities are holding the country to ransom, costing millions defending against their attacks and billions in lost opportunities.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/TrumpSupport/
48

paulr,

edinburgh 28/01/2008 08:10:36
The greens need to learn the meaning of democratic government, they need to learn that it is government by the majority not the minority.
They are a minority , a selfish, self important bunch of morons.
49

DaveSubsea,

28/01/2008 08:12:54
The Scotsman: Last Updated: 09 October 2006 11:34 PM

Only one bidder for £300m Scots motorway contract

THE £300 million contract to build the controversial M74 extension in Glasgow has attracted only one bidder, it emerged yesterday.
A consortium of the building firms Balfour Beatty, Morgan Est, Morrison Construction and Sir Robert McAlpine is the only one to have expressed an interest in building the five-mile road.

The contract accounts for the lion's share of the £500 million project, which is Scotland's biggest current roads scheme.

Opponents who failed in a court bid to halt the project described the news as "a sad day in the discredited history of this white elephant of a road".

Transport Scotland said the tender from the consortium, which calls itself Interlink M74 Joint Venture, would be compared against a "robust cost estimate that reflects current industry rates and prices" to ensure it represented value for money.

But David Spaven, who chairs the sustainable transport campaign group TRANSform Scotland, said: "The independent inquiry reporter threw out the economic case for the M74, and he supported our environmental arguments against the road."

The project to extend the M74 to south of the Kingston Bridge by 2010 is aimed at diverting through traffic travelling between the south and west of Glasgow away from the busy M8.



So the cartel was formed back in April 2006

'The Greens have acted now because a tough new directive from Europe was issued in the past few weeks,'

How can a cartel formed in 2006 be affected by a law which came into being two weeks ago?
50

Guga II,

Rockall 28/01/2008 08:13:30
#4 AM Squared. You just can't help yourself, can you? It would never occur to you that any of your precious unionist parties were to blame. Oh no, it must be the fault of the SNP. What's your problem? Is it because they are not building a new road in Northern Ireland for when you go home on holiday?

As for the Greens, if they had there way, we'd all be back in the Middle Ages, walking or driving our horses through mud, living in caves, and most of the population dead through starvation or hypothermia.

Regarding this garbage that the new road "will just generate more traffic which will soon fill up the new road", do these numpties think that cars will start breeding on any empty spaces? What planet are they living on?

At the next election, hopefully the Greens will garner the same sort of support as AM Squared's precious unionist parties, i.e. next to nothing.
51

DaveSubsea,

28/01/2008 08:14:03
# 48

Hit nail on heid, thank you!
52

Guga II,

Rockall 28/01/2008 08:14:25
Sorry, that should be "their way".
53

thomas ferguson,

28/01/2008 08:17:33
alex "smug" salmond will have a secret meeting and get it sorted,or maybe him and his party do not want the road built
54

DaveSubsea,

28/01/2008 08:18:15
# 53

AM2 has developed a post and run policy.
55

Purlie Wilson,

Melbourne 28/01/2008 08:24:42
Aye indeed from afar an independent Scotland is a bit of a misnomer. If a country has to go cap in hand to get the loot to accomplish a project just where does dependency start and stop?
EU @ Ugh!
56

DaveSubsea,

28/01/2008 08:26:43
# 54

'The scheme became mired in the most significant controversy to date when ministers gave it the go-ahead in 2005 despite a public inquiry recommending it should be rejected.'

The public inquiry didn't want the road built, not Alex Salmond.

LABOUR gave the go ahead not the SNP,

Cart before horse springs to mind
57

DaveSubsea,

28/01/2008 08:32:53
# 56
Thus the independence of Australia from the United Kingdom, rather than occurring as a single event, has, in legal terms, been a continuing process. Some of the significant milestones discussed above have been the following:
mid-1800s: acquisition of substantial internal self-government by the colonies
1901: establishment of the Commonwealth of Australia
1927: development of the "shared" monarchy
1931: passing of the Statute of Westminster
1986: passing of the Australia Act

Australia seems to be doing well since gaining independence...
58

DaveSubsea,

28/01/2008 08:34:52
# 56

We in Scotland don't have the benefit of 'substancial self government'
59

DaveSubsea,

28/01/2008 08:35:34
'substantial' sorry
60

conservative,

Fife 28/01/2008 08:36:43
#49, Paulr.

Democracy is 3 wolves and a sheep voting on what to do for lunch.
61

David MacVicar,

web 28/01/2008 09:00:34
50 DaveSubsea,

I was thinking the same thing - seems a pointless exercise by the greens unless the EU want to prevent any further contract work going to the 'Cartel'.

57 DaveSubsea,
10 out of 10 for perseverance, but when other posters make such pathetic statements its doubtful that a handful of inconvienent facts will make much difference.

As has been the case in several projects the SNP has inherited a mess to deal with as best they can and in this case its too late to stop the project. The greens are only going to increase the costs by adding further delays.
62

David MacVicar,

web 28/01/2008 09:06:14
61 conservative

UK democracy applied to Scotland is

2 wolves and 3 sheep vote in Scotland on who sets the lunch menu. Sheep win 3 to 2.

UK Wolves in sheeps clothing overturn the decision in favour of the wolves.

It could be funny if it weren't true!
63

TommyKaye,

UK 28/01/2008 09:06:39
A-Levels To Go - McDonald's Offers Exams

This says everything you need to know about Labours time in Government.

A country that led the world is now to offer qualifications in fast food and it isn't even British!

fcuk the UK astonishing.

Perhaps they should change their name to Maclabour do you want lies with that yes I meant LIES
64

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 09:12:46
Stupid interfering busibodies should mind their own business.
65

Buspass,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 09:16:19
Sic Gloria Transit, Greens
66

GP,

28/01/2008 09:49:30
Most of the roads infrastructure in Scvotland is unfit for pupose. No question about it.
Roads given an M classification that are actually not motorways at all but dual carriageways. A - class roads that are dangerous in design with poor intersections and even to this day still have crossings. The remainder goes without say.
67

Upbeat,

28/01/2008 09:52:18
A wish list for a thriving nation would include good education, proper housing, adequate work and a good national transport infrastructure.

What part of this can the greens not understand ?

This last ditch attempt to stymie the plans for the completion of the through route around and past Glasgow is nothing more than a childish tantrum. The Greens should grow up and look around the world . They have no mandate to hold the future prosperity of Scotland to ransom.
It could be considered unfortunate for Glasgow's population that the city is located in between the west of Scotland and the rest of Europe. Itis certainly unfortunate for Scotland that some narrow minded single agenda luddites would deny the west of Scotland proper economic links to the markets on which the future prosperity of us all do depend.

68

MDK,

Govan 28/01/2008 10:01:55
The inital building of the M8 through Glasgow shattered the communities it past through, and destroyed great buildings close to the hearts of many. It has helped turn the city into a less caring, car centric place, where people talk and listen less to each other, while sitting in their lonely cars. The old friendly atmosphere is changing fast, and could disappear completely. The building of this extension may speed up traffic, but it will do nothing for the communities it will pass through. Glasgow should be about its people, not about motor vehicles!
69

GP,

28/01/2008 10:10:57
69# your arguement would be fair if Glasgow was paying for it, it isn't.
70

Miss H,

28/01/2008 10:14:35
I think the M74 extension is as big a white elephant as the Edinburgh trams. It will not reduce congestion. It's a waste of money.

71

Miss H,

28/01/2008 10:16:13
Incidentally for anyone who says how do I know that - well there was an eighteen month long public inquiry into it. Read the report.
72

tomislav,

home 28/01/2008 10:26:34
Get rid of this grubby, ridiculous devolution rubbish we have inadvertently let ourself be lumbered with, wave Bye bye to the honorary titled tacky jobs for the boys "Scottish Government" farce and lets have our real Government do what we need them to do.
73

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 28/01/2008 10:29:53
#51 Guga II

You asked me: “Is it because they are not building a new road in Northern Ireland for when you go home on holiday?”

You have tried to claim that Scotland is under an “imperialist yoke”, described English people as “foreigners” and “war-mongering, neighbours from hell” and have spoken of what you call the “jackboot of English colonialism”. You have tried to smear me as a “loyalist” (and then claimed ignorance of the paramilitary connotation) and have said to me: “Why don't you go back to Northern Ireland”.

At every opportunity you gratuitously introduce into threads the fact that I’m not Scottish by birth. It’s a device which you use in the hope that others reading are as racist as you and will discount my comments on that basis.

Know this: I moved to Scotland as barely more than a child and consider Glasgow to be my home. I don’t “go home” to Ireland. This is my home. Would you speak to a Pakistani or Somali in this manner?
74

Miss H,

28/01/2008 10:30:24
33 Hallo? It is indeed ridiculous that Glasgow does not have a ring road. The M74 extension is not a ring road - it goes right through the middle!
75

A Crofter,

Western Isles 28/01/2008 10:34:04
The public inquiry reporter rejected the plan, saying it would provide no more than a very temporary cure for traffic congestion locally and would probably create new bottlenecks elsewhere. That concept has been proved many times before.

It was the very green LibDems Nichol Stephen and Tavish Scott who took it upon themselves (with general Holyrood support) to overturn this decision.

Yet another example of Holyrood's refusal (as seen with recent calling-in of Trump's proposal) to abide by the proper democratic process and suck up to the business lobby (donations gratefully received) at the expense of the environment.

The Greens are right about this and should seriosly reconsider their support fot Ecky Trump's minority administration.

Over to the Tonker-driving stormtroopers .......
76

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 28/01/2008 10:36:19
#27 Julian

He doesn't. In fact, his comment would make little sense unless he thought that the complaint was unjustified.

Anyway, some commentators appear to be unable to separate out the strands of this. For my part, I support the M74 extension and want to see it completed, but I have an open mind on the Greens' complaint to the EC.

Doonhamer (#15) presumably sees that as "fanaticism". Well, that's how he seems to see every view that won't align to his own unwavering support of the SNP and all its works. No skin off my nose.
77

Paul R,

28/01/2008 10:42:06
All that the Green Party are doing is delaying the inevitable - and making the whoel scheme cost far more than it needs to. They are entitled to their opinion but I think they are digging their heels on this one.

Roads in the USA are built without any environmental backlash (and hence cost half as much) - why should we be any different?
78

ken 17,

north side 28/01/2008 10:58:12
aye, its out in the open now, no means to cross the river unless it can be blocked
erskine - easily closed
city centre easily closed
east end - easily closed
kingston bridge * easily closed [ if it doesn't collapse]
proposed M74 ext - stop at all costs.
welcome to the independent green republics of north and south glasgow and the new checkpoint Patrick, and you thought the berlin wall was physical and couldn't happen here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
79

Teamdroid,

28/01/2008 11:06:03
#77 - unfortunately AM2, this thread indeed shows you up as the fanatic. Firstly, your response (#4) to post #2, which had made no mention of the SNP or even the poster's own political sympathies! However, you sought to apportion fault to the SNP. As has already been mentioned, a ridiculous non-sequitor. Then latterly you tried your usual "Are you still a racist?" gambit. I'm surprised no-one runs a book each thread, betting on which number of post you resort to that one. Tiresome.
80

Morbo,

28/01/2008 11:21:51
What a boring thread! Why do people from around the world care or think their opinion on a Scottish road is worthy of consideration? Do you have NOTHING more interesting to do with your life?
81

william john,

ayr 28/01/2008 11:29:02
Build it. Roads in scotland are in the stagecoach era, compared to england, europe, and the rest of the world.
Friends of the earth dont believe in cutting flowers so where they and others like them would take us wouldnt be very far.
82

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 28/01/2008 11:35:03
#80 Teamdroid

I'll try one more time. Which party Sanny might or might not support is irrelevant. If the Greens' complaint has no foundation then his post #2 might make some sense. Otherwise, his "logic" defeats me. You're pulling at straws. And incidentally, if you don't see referring to English people as “neighbours from hell” and suggesting that someone who lives in Scotland isn't at "home" here because they happen to have been born elsewhere as racist, then there's not a lot I would be able to say to convince you otherwise. Never mind.
83

mr angry,

ayrshire 28/01/2008 11:54:10
#36 How can it possibly lead to growth in traffic, as stated before who is going to run out and buy a new car/truck because Glasgow has a bypass. It must be a benefit due to traffic not having to do a full circle of Glasgow to get round to the west or blocking smaller roads and causing even more damage. The greens should be voting for this as good for the environment. Its OK to have a position but to blindly go on as they are doing is bound to isolate them as nutters and lead to their demise.
We cannot get rid of cars and so should try to ensure the best possible enviromental outcome based on that not have idiots cutting of their noses to spite their faces.
84

Martin Kersland St,

Glasgow 28/01/2008 12:11:47
#83

Are these also lies......I'm confused!!! HELP
85

RCI,

Lanarkshire 28/01/2008 12:22:28
As one who has to travel the M8 in Glasgow each day, I welcome the M74 link. Due to the bodged planning of the motorway system in Glasgow in the 60's, we have inherited a system unfit for purpose. The Kingston Bridge, and the congestion caused by this bottleneck, created huge traffic queues each day.
It would seem to me to be common sense to complete this section of motorway, which is going to built on mostly brownfield sites and thus easing the pressure on a seriously overburdened bridge.
Road traffic, and the need for mass transit, will not go away. Unfortunately, in today's society, roads are a necessary evil which no-one has come up with a workable solution to.
Maybe the Green's should concentrate on campaigning to change the nature of the vehicles on the roads. The combustion engine is a major cause of pollution in the world. There are other alternatives available if the political will to change the face of transportation was there.
I feel the Green Party are far to idealistic and this campaign will see them further sidelined for mainstream political debate.

86

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 12:25:56
#84 It has been shown time and time again that new roads often lead to an increase in traffic; the Scottish Executive ignored their own reporter's advice that this would be so for the M74 extension and decided to go ahead anyway despite all the evidence against. To say your attitude is that of a naive straw man.
87

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 12:39:55
Miss H. Your point about trams may be understated as they will create congestion, not reduce it.
88

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 12:40:34
#87 - By that logic we should shut existing roads because that should then lead to a reduction in traffic.

This road is 40 years overdue, just like the upgrade of the M8 to a proper motorway as opposed to a 2lane glorifed dual carriageway is overdue.
89

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 12:43:07
AM2 has been posted as missing on Wendy Alexander scandal. Good to see still alive as above and posting on 'safer' ground for him.
90

 Ayrshire Scot™,

28/01/2008 12:55:12
- Conceived 50 years ago....
- But a five-mile gap to the Kingston bridge has remained since an initial extension of the M74 to Carmyle in the south-east was opened in 1994....
-The scheme received planning permission in 1995, but a funding dispute between councillors and ministers delayed it until the Scottish Executive agreed in 2001..

So it took Labour/ Lib Dems 8 years not to progress this at all? Similar to the new Forth crossing which the Labour/Lib Dem exec took 8 years not to progress at all.

And Labour (who presided over the spectacular farce of the Parliament building cost over-run) now keep complaining about the SNP investigating process issues in planning?

91

Miss H,

28/01/2008 12:55:22
88 Very likely. The key point as far as I am concerned is that they are both a waste of public money.
92

,

28/01/2008 12:56:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
93

Lock,

28/01/2008 12:58:13
I for one would be very disappointing if a new road didn't lead to any traffic on it. How much do you think these delays will cost us? It would be nice to know as then we could find out more details of how the elected people of this country are insistent on pouring our cash down the pan.
94

Doh,

28/01/2008 13:02:35
#76

"Ecky Trump"

That is the funniest thing I have read today.
Thanks - it is even better than "Dear Leader".
95

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 28/01/2008 13:18:01
Can we please get the issue of new roads creating additional traffic straight. (And before anyone starts I am in favour of having a well developed strategic Trunk Road network)

New roads have the potential to create more car usage and can encourage people to buy / use a car when then previously didn't bother.
For example you live and work in Glasgow. The new M77 improves journey times to and from the Ayrshire coast. You can get a bigger property for less bucks and benefit from all that sea air and the commute now doesn;t seem as bad as it did 5 years ago. However you still work in Glasgow. Previously from your old address you got the bus or clockwork Orange. Now you drive. Plus your partner may have previously used the car for other activities so you end up buying another one. Therefore more car usage and another car.

Or - you still live in Glasgow but your company decides to up sticks, flog its current site to the housing developers and move to a new development next to the new motorway as it helps with distribution etc. That takes some vehciles off the urban network but now you have to drive 25 miles to get to work.

If people remember the Newbury Bypass here is some interesting facts and figures.

A report, Movement Framework for Newbury, published in April last year by West Berkshire Council revealed that:

The Newbury bypass has generated considerably more traffic than forecast by the Highway's Agency (HA). In 1995 the HA predicted that by 2010 traffic on the new bypass would be in the range of 22,000 to 36,000 vehicles per day. But, by 2003 it was already at 45,700 in the central section, 42,000 on the northern section and 39,900 on the southern section.

Overall traffic levels - on the bypass and through the town - rose from 43,900 to 65,000 vehicles a day (almost 50%) between 1997 and 2003 north of the town and from 25,300 to 47,030 (over 80%) south of the town.

Traffic levels through the town fell initially after the opening of the byp
96

Neil,

Glasgow 28/01/2008 13:19:41
The Greens are inherently opposed to economic progress & in favour of ever more EU controls over everything we do so this shouls not come as a surprise. I wish the eco-fascists were forced to pay for even a significant fraction of the costs they load on us all.